My 688 must have a squeek

[Tinman764]

It seems that no matter what I do, I can't stop enemy subs detecting my 688 and getting a good solution on me.

My normal missions run thus:

I start at battlestations, I don't close distance.
I go to silent running and beam the contact to try and get a quicker solution.
They normally go active at this point but this doesn't seem to improve my solution.
We end up shooting at each other at the same time and I spend the next 15 minutes dodging active torps.

Now, I've read Red Storm Rising - I want to kill subs without them knowing I was there! How do you do it? :k_confused:

[PL_Harpoon]

What's your speed at the start of the engagement?

[Tinman764]

I try to start at 5 or 10knts.

I noticed something else - I was hovering just below a very strong layer just now hunting an Alpha who was also below the layer.

We fired, I bumped up through the layer expecting the Alpha and his torps to lose contact with me. Nope, they ploughed straight through into me.

[Nippelspanner]

I try to start at 5 or 10knts.

I noticed something else - I was hovering just below a very strong layer just now hunting an Alpha who was also below the layer.

We fired, I bumped up through the layer expecting the Alpha and his torps to lose contact with me. Nope, they ploughed straight through into me.

At what distance?
And how fast where you doing this?
A layer is no magic shield that protects you all the time, but it sure can help.

I agree though, the enemy always finds you even if you do your utmost to prevent this - and that really has to change.

[Tinman764]

Yep, I always keep the speed set to 1/3rd when I'm trying to build a solution and I picked up his torps a long way out - it's possible that they might have been ship or air dropped from something I didn't pick up, I guess. In which case putting myself above the layer would have only made things worse.

[FPSchazly]

At 1/3rd, you have a pretty low bearing rate so it will take longer to build a solution. You have to keep a watch for the contact's ability to hear you in the signatures screen. If their sensors are below 10 dB, you can go faster and they won't pick you up. It is possible there are airplanes or helos nearby that are seeing you.

To quote ramjb here, to be stealthy doesn't mean being slow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhxFImfH9I

[Tinman764]

That's a great video! :Kaleun_Salute:

[VizlaN]

We fired, I bumped up through the layer expecting the Alpha and his torps to lose contact with me. Nope, they ploughed straight through into me.
After the AI has a solution and fired at you, it knows exactly where you are no matter what you do. Devs are aware of it, but will probably take some time to do what I assume will be a full rework to an AI that does not cheat. Same goes for surface vessels.
For now, be aware they do not properly adjust for depth, so if you have the option go deep if he is shallow and vice versa, and they are not good at properly setting activation range(viable strategy is to for instance go deep and turn towards the torpedo so it activates past you).

[Tinman764]

I just made a seperate post, I think I've discovered a bug with the distance scale option.

Basically, if you have the distance scale set to 1/1 then as soon as you start the mission it seem that any active sonar immediately detects you with a score over 10. If you leave the distance scale alone at 1/2 then any active sonar starts with a score below 0.

[PL_Harpoon]

At what distance?
And how fast where you doing this?
A layer is no magic shield that protects you all the time, but it sure can help.

I agree though, the enemy always finds you even if you do your utmost to prevent this - and that really has to change.

It's strange cause I don't have that experience at all.
I believe that at the start of the engagement, if you don't choose to close in the game will put you at a distance at which either you can detect them or they can detect you. So if the sea is really noisy you can start the engagement inside their active sonar range. But in perfect conditions you can start as far as 30 KYDS(@devs - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here)

[Julhelm]

After the AI has a solution and fired at you, it knows exactly where you are no matter what you do. Devs are aware of it, but will probably take some time to do what I assume will be a full rework to an AI that does not cheat. Same goes for surface vessels.
For now, be aware they do not properly adjust for depth, so if you have the option go deep if he is shallow and vice versa, and they are not good at properly setting activation range(viable strategy is to for instance go deep and turn towards the torpedo so it activates past you).
That's not true. The reason they know where you are is because they keep pinging you, updating your position. So if you can escape their active range they will lose you. The main problem is that submarines seem to share information when they should not.

[PL_Harpoon]

The main problem is that submarines seem to share information when they should not.
I assumed they're using some kind of underwater telephone for that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_telephone)

[Tinman764]

It's strange cause I don't have that experience at all.
I believe that at the start of the engagement, if you don't choose to close in the game will put you at a distance at which either you can detect them or they can detect you. So if the sea is really noisy you can start the engagement inside their active sonar range. But in perfect conditions you can start as far as 30 KYDS(@devs - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here)

There is an option to change the games distance scale from 1/2 (the default) to 1/1. I had changed this and was getting picked up on the enemy active as soon as I started each time.
I've changed this back to the default and it is exactly how you describe - much more managable.

I'm pretty sure this is a bug.

[PL_Harpoon]

There is an option to change the games distance scale from 1/2 (the default) to 1/1. I had changed this and was getting picked up on the enemy active as soon as I started each time.
I've changed this back to the default and it is exactly how you describe - much more managable.

I'm pretty sure this is a bug.

The thing is, changing the game to 1:1 was literally the first thing I did after launching the game and I haven't touched that button since then. :)

[Tinman764]

The thing is, changing the game to 1:1 was literally the first thing I did after launching the game and I haven't touched that button since then. :)

Hmm.. Strange. It was the first thing I did too and I've had nothing but frustration trying to play it.
I changed it back to the default and it's *almost* too easy now.

[PL_Harpoon]

There's one other thing though. Some missions (TLAM strike, seal insertion) have fixed starting position. That's where I have problems too and I think this actually is a bug. All the normal engagements seem fine to me.

[VizlaN]

That's not true. The reason they know where you are is because they keep pinging you, updating your position. So if you can escape their active range they will lose you. The main problem is that submarines seem to share information when they should not.

What is the explanation for the behavior I linked you in the video last week, vs one sub that had -20 on SNS COMP active/-30 passive and torpedo still tracking perfectly? For reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omhM4vjxRf8

You said you would pass it on to the programmer, was that not done or was what you just said what came back even tho the video shows only one sub?

[Delgard]

I carry a can of WD-40.

[cj95]

Hmm.. Strange. It was the first thing I did too and I've had nothing but frustration trying to play it.
I changed it back to the default and it's *almost* too easy now.



Other than the changes in detection, do you find any downsides to the 1:2 ratio?

Its also pretty much the first thing I changed, but am wondering actually what it does now.

Arcade unrealistic?

[Tinman764]

Other than the changes in detection, do you find any downsides to the 1:2 ratio?

Its also pretty much the first thing I changed, but am wondering actually what it does now.

Arcade unrealistic?

It's bareable, but I'd prefer the longer distance scale. The engagements now nearly always start in my favour and it's fairly easy to stay undetected.

[Julhelm]

What is the explanation for the behavior I linked you in the video last week, vs one sub that had -20 on SNS COMP active/-30 passive and torpedo still tracking perfectly? For reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omhM4vjxRf8

You said you would pass it on to the programmer, was that not done or was what you just said what came back even tho the video shows only one sub?
That's been fixed.

[ollie1983]

Err, you say you go to silent running and begin 'beaming' the enemy?

You mean active sonar?

Don't use it. It just shows everyone your position unless they are close- probably 15kyds or less.

Stay at 5-10 knots, move in one direction, then another and rely on passive sonar and towed array.

Avoid making very acute course changes or depth changes as it would degrade tower array performance.

Change depth slowly and with the planes only.

I can kill enemy subs without them ever knowing the direction it was fired from.

[xXNightEagleXx]

With the risk of being obvious, repeat what has already been said and/or you already know, i'll give you my two cents.

I'll focus on enemy sensors.

I'll start by saying that their passive sensor is linked mainly by these factors:
1 - Noise produced by your ship
2 - Whether or not you are within their operational angle arc
3 - Your distance
4 - Your depth
5 - If the path between both is clear (any ship between can create enough disturb to destroy the signal

What you can do to decrease their passive signal is to put some distance, reduce or kill your speed, activate silent running, put some other ship between, change the layer and most important stay in its shadow zone.
Decrease your depth will be effective only if you can go pretty deep like beyond 1000 ft (works pretty well against choppers)

The active sensor on the other hand are linked to:
1 - Your distance
2 - Your profile exposure

So what you can do is put some distance and try to limit your exposure (having the target directly on your bow or stern) and again stay in the shadow zone.

So first of all please do not beam the target unless the active value is low, otherwise you will just make easier for them to spot you once the value increase. Second decrease any noise generated by your sub as much as possible (or at least the necessary amount in order to avoid finding yourself moving too slow to maneuver in time). Third, try to understand as soon as possible whether there is a safe shadow zone but beware of choppers, if choppers presence are already confirmed then you will have to consider going deep. Fourth, try to use their own sensor limits against them.

Devs already said that limiting your aspect can cut the value by up to 25%. I'll give some examples, if you beam the target with an active value of 10 and he pings you then be sure he will start to track you. On the other hand, if you aim perfectly toward the enemy or away from the enemy, to detect you they will need four time the normal value (10/0.25 = 40). Can you take this as a safe value? No! Because once they are simply too close, like below 3000yrds, they will at least move toward you, maybe without engaging you. It happened more than once that i got a ping from a target about 2.5kyds but the relative bearing was 0 and he simply did not see me.

For last but not least, in theory the active sonar should be disturbed when you are close to the bottom but after many test i can confirm that it is not working like this in this game or at least how the AI reacts to this dirty value. In the best scenario i saw them just parking above me for a long time, but usually they will just stay there and attack you.

[Julhelm]

Ambient noise and flow noise greatly affect the sonar detection, as well.

[Tinman764]

Err, you say you go to silent running and begin 'beaming' the enemy?

You mean active sonar?

Don't use it. It just shows everyone your position unless they are close- probably 15kyds or less.

Stay at 5-10 knots, move in one direction, then another and rely on passive sonar and towed array.

Avoid making very acute course changes or depth changes as it would degrade tower array performance.

Change depth slowly and with the planes only.

I can kill enemy subs without them ever knowing the direction it was fired from.

No, I mean presenting the broadside of the sub to the contact to get a better passive return.

[Tinman764]

With the risk of being obvious, repeat what has already been said and/or you already know, i'll give you my two cents.

I'll focus on enemy sensors.

I'll start by saying that their passive sensor is linked mainly by these factors:
1 - Noise produced by your ship
2 - Whether or not you are within their operational angle arc
3 - Your distance
4 - Your depth
5 - If the path between both is clear (any ship between can create enough disturb to destroy the signal

What you can do to decrease their passive signal is to put some distance, reduce or kill your speed, activate silent running, put some other ship between, change the layer and most important stay in its shadow zone.
Decrease your depth will be effective only if you can go pretty deep like beyond 1000 ft (works pretty well against choppers)

The active sensor on the other hand are linked to:
1 - Your distance
2 - Your profile exposure

So what you can do is put some distance and try to limit your exposure (having the target directly on your bow or stern) and again stay in the shadow zone.

So first of all please do not beam the target unless the active value is low, otherwise you will just make easier for them to spot you once the value increase. Second decrease any noise generated by your sub as much as possible (or at least the necessary amount in order to avoid finding yourself moving too slow to maneuver in time). Third, try to understand as soon as possible whether there is a safe shadow zone but beware of choppers, if choppers presence are already confirmed then you will have to consider going deep. Fourth, try to use their own sensor limits against them.

Devs already said that limiting your aspect can cut the value by up to 25%. I'll give some examples, if you beam the target with an active value of 10 and he pings you then be sure he will start to track you. On the other hand, if you aim perfectly toward the enemy or away from the enemy, to detect you they will need four time the normal value (10/0.25 = 40). Can you take this as a safe value? No! Because once they are simply too close, like below 3000yrds, they will at least move toward you, maybe without engaging you. It happened more than once that i got a ping from a target about 2.5kyds but the relative bearing was 0 and he simply did not see me.

For last but not least, in theory the active sonar should be disturbed when you are close to the bottom but after many test i can confirm that it is not working like this in this game or at least how the AI reacts to this dirty value. In the best scenario i saw them just parking above me for a long time, but usually they will just stay there and attack you.

Hi NightEagle, thanks for you post.

My main issue was I was starting missions where the enemy sub already had over +10 on his passive return to me before I'd even had a chance to take any action.
I don't know if this was because I was using the distance scale set to 1/1 because it didn't happen every time, but since changing it back to the default setting of 1/2 it hasn't happened at all.

[VizlaN]

That's been fixed.
Something is still off about how the AI subs target you. One active ping(from your ship) is all it takes most of the time for them to know exactly where you are and do a launch, while for you it takes a lot of pings from the enemy before you know with a high confidence. This is excluding them picking you up on passive or already having a partial solution from active pinging. I believe you mentioned before that they will not fire before an 80% solution is reached?

Still need to fix ships. They know your speed and bearing when launching counter-missiles after detected an incoming missile, even tho you change course and speed significantly after launch while being too far out for any detection(outside the obvious smoke-trail).

Also, were helicopters this useless in real life? First off they detect sound up until the point the microphone reaches the heli, not when it comes above surface. Minor, don't really care too much just an FYI. But, I'm able to easily get away from them even while cavitating above layer. Just need a mayor course change when the heli lifts to a new spot, and about 6-7 times out of 10 they loose you even tho ships 10k+ yards away are able to pick you up.

[Wiz33]

No, I mean presenting the broadside of the sub to the contact to get a better passive return.

Ah but if you notice their active sonar strength does go up when you present your broadside. If you face towards them it goes down. so you have to watch that too.

[CowabungaKid89]

At 1/3rd, you have a pretty low bearing rate so it will take longer to build a solution. You have to keep a watch for the contact's ability to hear you in the signatures screen. If their sensors are below 10 dB, you can go faster and they won't pick you up. It is possible there are airplanes or helos nearby that are seeing you.

To quote ramjb here, to be stealthy doesn't mean being slow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhxFImfH9I

Thank you for posting this. Since it came up in the video: what I think really needs fixing ASAP is that this magic value of 10 on active is something I had to look up on forums. Such information should be available in game, preferably in a tutorial. Players should never have to rummage around in game files or forums to get such crucial information.

[Tinman764]

Thank you for posting this. Since it came up in the video: what I think really needs fixing ASAP is that this magic value of 10 on active is something I had to look up on forums. Such information should be available in game, preferably in a tutorial. Players should never have to rummage around in game files or forums to get such crucial information.

I agree. It was the same video you linked that helped me out too.

I think maybe changing the numbers to a more descriptive (and hopefully immersive) system like detection levels of "unlikely" "probable" "likely" etc... would be good?

[PL_Harpoon]

I think maybe changing the numbers to a more descriptive (and hopefully immersive) system like detection levels of "unlikely" "probable" "likely" etc... would be good?

Actually, I think that's a very good idea. Especially if for example a level of "almost certain" would be equivalent to current 8 to 12.
I'd keep the numbers for ownship data though as the crew knows exactly the parameters of their own sonar.