A price for the SDK of sh3

[makman94]

i am wondering how much money Ubi wants for the full SDK of sh3.

i read somewhere that Ubi has allready gave a price for the full SDK of sh5 at 12.000 usd. (no idea though if this is really true)
So, i am thinking,if the above is true, that the price for the full SDK of sh3 should,logically, be at a lower level

Can we ask Ubi to give us a price ? Maybe, there will be a deal if they make a logical offer. I believe that the money (if indead the offer is at lower than 12.000 usd) will be fixed by the community very shortly. but , i think , is important the question to Ubi to come 'officially' from the Subsim.

we will be able to make it a super game as we like it (The transformation of Falcon is a good example with the sdk in the moders's hands)

what do you think guys ?

[propbeanie]

Read all of:

[/URL][URL="http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226836"]Donate Here to Help Purchase the Exporter needed to Mod SH5 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226836)

... and it could also be used on SH3... 3, 4 and 5 are basically the same game, just with different make-up / mascara / cosmetics, and techniques of applying it...

[Jeff-Groves]

The SH5 Exporter has nothing to do with SH3/SH4.

[ValoWay]

Ubisoft's American headquarter address is:

Contact us!
625 Third Street
San Francisco, CA 94107

Phone: +415-547-4000

source: https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/office/ncsa-hq.aspx

There's way worse and way more ambitious stuff on crowdfunding sites like kickstarter.com which would asking for something like 10.000 $ for an SDK from over a decade ago look like a total joke in comparison. Hell, there're people nowadays which ask other people on such sites for video game consoles and other ridiculous stuff like that..

It would be wise to ask someone with some business experience what he thinks about the whole idea and entire process of attempting to buy an SDK from a business like Ubisoft!?

I surely would participate if subsim officially ran its own crowdfunding campaign for the SH3 SDK :D

[Jeff-Groves]

Good luck getting Kashmir from Ubi!
:haha:

Best deal I could broker for the SH5 stuff is $8,000
And that is direct from RAD Games with limits.


There is so many tools for SH3/4 now that Kashmir is redundant.
At the 2008 SubSim meet Dan saw a tool used by the Grey Wolves.
He threatened to steal my computer when he saw it.
It was better then Ubi's tools I guess.
:haha:

Only the source code would make a big change.

[ValoWay]

I know that jagged alliance 2's source code is open public and that akella, developer of age of pirates 2 city of abandoned ships gave access to the source code to the modders of pirates ahoy!

Several years ago, we were generously given the opportunity by Akella to have access to the source code for Age of Pirates 2 City of Abandoned Ships. After several months of discussion about what to do with it going forward, we decided to pursue a different path in creating our own game from scratch with Hearts of Oak. Over in Russia however, another group of modders, Blackmark Studio, was also given access to the code, and they decided to recreate the game from the ground up based on that source code. The game was released in Russia a few years ago under the title Pirates Odyssey To Each His Own!

source:
http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/sea-dogs-to-each-his-own.26882/

Who knows what Ubi says if someone just asked them?

[Jeff-Groves]

All I'll say is step up and go for it.
Talking about 'what if' don't get it done.

[Kendras]

Only the source code would make a big change.

All I'll say is step up and go for it.
Talking about 'what if' don't get it done.

:agree:

[Kendras]

i am wondering how much money Ubi wants for the full SDK of sh3.

i read somewhere that Ubi has allready gave a price for the full SDK of sh5 at 12.000 usd. (no idea though if this is really true)
So, i am thinking,if the above is true, that the price for the full SDK of sh3 should,logically, be at a lower level

Can we ask Ubi to give us a price ? Maybe, there will be a deal if they make a logical offer. I believe that the money (if indead the offer is at lower than 12.000 usd) will be fixed by the community very shortly. but , i think , is important the question to Ubi to come 'officially' from the Subsim.

we will be able to make it a super game as we like it (The transformation of Falcon is a good example with the sdk in the moders's hands)

what do you think guys ?

I think it's a very good idea. Everyone is waiting for this. Why not already ask people how much money they are ready to give for this ?

With the source code, we could add shadows, improve the sea waves, add wind effect (on flags, on smoke ....), add specific and real underwater lights, improve the airplanes attacks, add snowfalls, and so on, and so on ..... Why not create a list of all we want to change and will be possible only with the source code ?

But : who is ready to read this code and improve it ?

[ValoWay]

I'm not a modder, only a guy with common sense and 25 years of pc gaming experience, but I would imagine that with the source code our modders on subsim could maybe even fix the corrupt save game issues and other CTD problems!? Imagine that :o

@Kendras

I read here that reading source code is actually not that hard:

"You don’t need to be an expert programmer to read source code," he said. "If you’ve had one class of computer programming, or have taken some online tutorials, you can read source code. This isn’t hard to read. I’m not a C programmer and I can read this source code."

source:http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/17/5519536/finding-treasures-in-the-code-why-the-source-code-of-classic-games

edit:
AI_Hydrophone being temporarily deaf after dropping depth charges, thermal layers, effects of shallow waters and sitting on the seabed on allied sonar are missing because of having no access to source code I believe??

[hauangua]

I'm not a modder, only a guy with common sense and 25 years of pc gaming experience, but I would imagine that with the source code our modders on subsim could maybe even fix the corrupt save game issues and other CTD problems!? Imagine that :o

@Kendras

I read here that reading source code is actually not that hard:



source:http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/17/5519536/finding-treasures-in-the-code-why-the-source-code-of-classic-games
The problem is not whether hard .... problem is that it must be legal
Ubisoft must allow...otherwise is illegal

[makman94]

It will be possible to add a sophisticated hydrophone,a sophisticated sonar,a sophisticated radar(which ,as much simplest is made,is not even working properly in sh3),thermal layers,weather seasons ,curveness of earth,correct positions-timings of stars so making a true navigation possible ,no fish-eye at periscopes, clever AI tactics and a trully dynamic campaign just to name so many few.
the list is endless and the only limits will be the pcs capabilities.

As to the question who will make all these...you will see people showing up from nowhere.you don't see them now becuase there is no potential for them in the 'locked' sh3's code. we had some of these kind of people around here (there are two names in my mind right now) but most of them are innactive for long time now. But i am sure that there will be much more of these two when the 'game' is about to start.

i am thinking (long shot now) that the Subsim will live again the great days of the first glory sims getting out (as DW,sh2...etc) and in a greater atmosphere as it will be a continued and non stopped development of a project (which,imo, will write history with golden letters in sims era)

i think Jeff said all....there are no 'if'. we have to know the price and then we will see for the rest. i am afraid that without a price,we have nothing to discuss about

[ValoWay]

This thread had 297 views so far. I think everyone who would want to support a crowdfunding effort with his money should post a simple '+1' or 'I agree' so that it can become apparent to everyone how great the interest of subsim's community is to get access to the source code from Ubisoft.

Cause, we might wanna send an actual formal letter to Ubisoft and in that letter we should, besides stating why we want access, also name everyone who supports the plea to underline our interest and seriousness. That is much better and effective as when one random guy sends a badly written e-mail in broken English.

If people on subsim prove their interest and support in the idea I believe that is up to willing native English speakers to start formulating a letter to Ubi.

Furthermore, I believe that the entire effort would gain weight drastically if it was officially under the umbrella of subsim.com.

Like I said earlier, however, it is first of all beneficial to find out if the whole attempt of us trying to get ubi's approval was reasonable or not.

That is all I can say and reason about the matter :doh:

[Fubar2Niner]

@ValoWay

Why not make the topic a poll? Then it will be easy to see who would back the idea.

Best regards


Fubar2Niner

[ValoWay]

@ValoWay

Why not make the topic a poll? Then it will be easy to see who would back the idea.

Best regards


Fubar2Niner

This is an excellent idea! :yeah:

Since it was Makman94's original idea I, however, won't do anything for now! He owns the right to decide if he wants to retroactively edit a poll into this thread (if possible?) or if he wants to create an entire new thread + poll maybe even in 'Silent Hunter III' general discussion instead of the 'Workshop' subsection?

Besides, Mak is also a well known and respected modder and I imagine that he asking the people is more effective to the cause than when 'fans' like me post a question to the community :03:

[makman94]

This thread had 297 views so far. I think everyone who would want to support a crowdfunding effort with his money should post a simple '+1' or 'I agree' so that it can become apparent to everyone how great the interest of subsim's community is to get access to the source code from Ubisoft.

Cause, we might wanna send an actual formal letter to Ubisoft and in that letter we should, besides stating why we want access, also name everyone who supports the plea to underline our interest and seriousness. That is much better and effective as when one random guy sends a badly written e-mail in broken English.

If people on subsim prove their interest and support in the idea I believe that is up to willing native English speakers to start formulating a letter to Ubi.

Furthermore, I believe that the entire effort would gain weight drastically if it was officially under the umbrella of subsim.com.

Like I said earlier, however, it is first of all beneficial to find out if the whole attempt of us trying to get ubi's approval was reasonable or not.

That is all I can say and reason about the matter :doh:

This is an excellent idea! :yeah:

Since it was Makman94's original idea I, however, won't do anything for now! He owns the right to decide if he wants to retroactively edit a poll into this thread (if possible?) or if he wants to create an entire new thread + poll maybe even in 'Silent Hunter III' general discussion instead of the 'Workshop' subsection?

Besides, Mak is also a well known and respected modder and I imagine that he asking the people is more effective to the cause than when 'fans' like me post a question to the community :03:

hello ValoWay,

the point of my message is exactly to find out how much money Ubi would like for the SDK.

There was a pole (or vote) long time ago here in subsim with people voting-asking for the SDK but this went nowhere.they were asking the SDK for free and they believed that if there were many voters ...the ubi would satisfy their request.

this,here, is completely different. i am suggesting to ask for a price and buy it. there is no need for votes or things like that.Ubi is giving a price and ,if the money are collected, we get the SDK.

i totally agree with you that must be an 'official' request for the price (i wrote it at my OP) for MANY reasons and then we (the community) will discuss our options if ubi makes a good offer. (becuase ,there is always the possibility,Ubi giving an 'astronomic' price and game is overing there).

I am not claiming any 'rights' for such ideas,i am just suggesting. you can make any poll or thread you like but ,personally, i don't believe that this would have any effect for getting a better price from Ubi

[Wise]

At first it is necessary to ask Ubisoft. And if he agrees to sell, then it is necessary to organize a collecting money. Organization of vote, this superfluous. Though, We still in SH3. Why? Because, Ubisoft has sold us the defective SH5. And after that, we have to pay him? I consider, we shouldn't pay.. Ubisoft shall give free of charge. As compensation for moral damage for grandiose deception. And besides, to indemnify financial damage to each virtual submariner. But, of course, it is unreal. I just laugh. Ok, I am ready to leave some amount money. But I consider before to realize this plan, it is necessary to have warranties of our geniuses (modders-programmers). Confidence is that they want and will be engaged in improvement of a game with new opportunities.

[Jeff-Groves]

Part of the basic source code from SH3/4 IS in SH5.
4 and 5 were built from 3.

SH3 actually had Dynamic Shadows in the 1st release.
There were issues with it so it was cut out of SH3 in the 1st patch.
What was not cut out was a ton of 3d models used by that!
So you have crap overhead that is never used by the Game.
People STILL to this day add that crap when they do a new unit!!
:doh:

Ubi selling the source code?
I highly, HIGHLY doubt they would do that.
They do know that there are some people around that are perfectly able to take that code and create a version that they would NEVER be able to compete with in the free market. If they sold the source code? they would have to start all over to avoid legal issues if they ever decided to do another Sub Sim Game.

My first expectation is that Ubi will just ignore any requests for a price.
The second would be they would just flat out tell you no.

[J0313]

Part of the basic source code from SH3/4 IS in SH5.
4 and 5 were built from 3.

SH3 actually had Dynamic Shadows in the 1st release.
There were issues with it so it was cut out of SH3 in the 1st patch.
What was not cut out was a ton of 3d models used by that!
So you have crap overhead that is never used by the Game.
People STILL to this day add that crap when they do a new unit!!
:doh:

Ubi selling the source code?
I highly, HIGHLY doubt they would do that.
They do know that there are some people around that are perfectly able to take that code and create a version that they would NEVER be able to compete with in the free market. If they sold the source code? they would have to start all over to avoid legal issues if they ever decided to do another Sub Sim Game.

My first expectation is that Ubi will just ignore any requests for a price.
The second would be they would just flat out tell you no.

Why would they sell the exporter for SH5 and not for SH3 when SH5 is the newer of the two? That doesn't make sense to me. But hey, maybe I'm just dense.

[Jeff-Groves]

Ubi is not selling the exporter for SH5!
RAD Games is selling it. They own the Exporter. Not Ubi!
So they can sell the exact same version to anyone they wish!

I suggest reading the SH5 threads before anyone assumes things.
SH5 is not SH3/4. Get over it.

[makman94]

......

Ubi selling the source code?
I highly, HIGHLY doubt they would do that.
They do know that there are some people around that are perfectly able to take that code and create a version that they would NEVER be able to compete with in the free market. If they sold the source code? they would have to start all over to avoid legal issues if they ever decided to do another Sub Sim Game.

My first expectation is that Ubi will just ignore any requests for a price.
The second would be they would just flat out tell you no.

as i said in my OP,

i have read somewhere here that ubi has give a price for the SDK of sh5 at 12000 usd (but i don't know if this is true. i searched for that post but i can't find it in order to point you there).
So, i am thinking,if the above is true, that the price for the full SDK of sh3 should,logically, be at a lower level

We have nothing to lose by just asking for a price and let them say whatever they want (for whatever reason)

[J0313]

Ubi is not selling the exporter for SH5!
RAD Games is selling it. They own the Exporter. Not Ubi!
So they can sell the exact same version to anyone they wish!

I suggest reading the SH5 threads before anyone assumes things.
SH5 is not SH3/4. Get over it.

Hey bro it was just a question. Your the one who needs to calm down and get over it.

[Tycho]

as i said in my OP,

i have read somewhere here that ubi has give a price for the SDK of sh5 at 12000 usd
No bad to dream, but I see that you misunderstood something. Ubi did not sell anything.
RAD Games sell one tool (exporter, only the exporter, not SDK), that Ubi used for SH5. They first asked 12000, now they ask 8000.
Jeff-Groves is trying to collect this amount. For six months, the collected money are 2200 from 30 people...
Make your conclusion, how you will collect money for a whole SDK.

[olddriedseaweed]

as i said in my OP,

i have read somewhere here that ubi has give a price for the SDK of sh5 at 12000 usd (but i don't know if this is true. i searched for that post but i can't find it in order to point you there).
So, i am thinking,if the above is true, that the price for the full SDK of sh3 should,logically, be at a lower level

We have nothing to lose by just asking for a price and let them say whatever they want (for whatever reason)

:agree:
AND - I'm in

[Niume]

:agree:
AND - I'm in

Count me in too :Kaleun_Salute::Kaleun_Wink:

[Niume]

If we are talking about Donating to Sh3\SH5 check here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226836

[makman94]

i don't know why most people here keep mixing up this thread with Jeff's thread.
this thing here is totally different with what Jeff's thread is running after.

@Tycho: i am aware of Jeff's thread and i know exactly what is all about there. Maybe is my bad english but i meant exactly what i wrote at my OP and this has nothing to do with rad tools or anything else.I wrote that i read somewhere that the price for the SDK of sh5 was at 12000 usd and not the rad tools...etc. Also, said that i don't know if this is true so lets find it out from ubi.
you are mentioning that people are not giving money for the rad tool so your conclusion is that they will not give money for the sdk too. these two are completely different and can't be compared.there is only one way to find out if people will support such an effort but first we need to know the price that is needed for the sh3's sdk.

i don't understand exactly your point by this ''Make your conclusion, how you will collect money for a whole SDK''.why are you making it looks as a personal campaign ?it will not be my job but all of us and if it ever starts it will mean that the price ubi said was a logical one.

i think that it is not a dream but the most practical and logical to ask for the price and then to see our next move.where is the dream to this ? what is your proposal , not even ask for the price ?

[Julhelm]

Why pay 12000 for an SDK to a 12 year old game when you can get Unity or UDK for free and create your own game free of restrictions?

[gap]

I dont like looking like I have a defeatist attitude, but I must admit that I fully agree with Jeff:

- no SDK is absolutely required for editing SHIII. Some of the tools needed were given to us by the devs, others were created ad hoc by estimated members of this community, and they are mostly of public domain. Those editors cover the majority of the game files. The remaining files can be edited for the biggest part with a simple text or hex editor.

- in the right hands, an hex editor is a powerful tool, but one needs to know what bits need to be changed for a certain purpose. As far as I can understand with my limited knowledge of programming, no SDK can replace manual coding, and editing a bunch of compiled code bit by bit can take a lot of time even to the most skilled programmer (not considering the time required for understanding that code). Fine programmers as Stiebler and Co. have done miracles with SHIII. The same goes with The Dark Wraith and SH5, but even so they have only managed discovering a few pieces of the puzzle, and at the cost of many hours of debugging. What is really needed for a larger group of modders-programmers to tweak some major features of the game in a more time-efficent way, or even for adding new features, is Ubisoft undisclosing game's source code. Them doing so is extremely unlikely though, and SHIII being a more than 10 years old game doesn't make things easier, because SHIV and SH5's codes are heavily based on it. They would rather sell the Silent Hunter franchise as a whole to another publisher/developper, who can pay for it expeting to get their money back.
No matter how motivated or generous we are, we will never get there... :-?

[Tycho]

i don't know why most people here keep mixing up this thread with Jeff's thread.
this thing here is totally different with what Jeff's thread is running after.
I think it is the same. Just old discussions in "SH5 Mods Workshop" from 2010-2011.
Search for "GR2 files" "Granny" and they often call it "Granny SDK".
So, the fact is, Ubi do not came yet to the idea to give or even sale something to the community. I have not heard so far, that they do such things.

i don't understand exactly your point by this ''Make your conclusion, how you will collect money for a whole SDK''.why are you making it looks as a personal campaign ?it will not be my job but all of us and if it ever starts it will mean that the price ubi said was a logical one.
Sorry! Just my english is worse.
By "you", I mean not you personally, "but all of us".

[makman94]

I dont like looking like I have a defeatist attitude, but I must admit that I fully agree with Jeff:

- no SDK is absolutely required for editing SHIII. Some of the tools needed were given to us by the devs, others were created ad hoc by estimated members of this community, and they are mostly of public domain. Those editors cover the majority of the game files. The remaining files can be edited for the biggest part with a simple text or hex editor. --this is not correct and it is not what Jeff said. the sh3 is very slighty moded (only H.Sie,Fader_berg and Stiebler moded it with lot of efforts as no sdk is availiable).everything else you see are just enhancements.the files that can mod the game's engine needs the sdk

- in the right hands, an hex editor is a powerful tool, but one needs to know what bits need to be changed for a certain purpose. As far as I can understand with my limited knowledge of programming, no SDK can replace manual coding, and editing a bunch of compiled code bit by bit can take a lot of time even to the most skilled programmer (not considering the time required for understanding that code). Fine programmers as Stiebler and Co. have done miracles with SHIII. The same goes with The Dark Wraith and SH5, but even so they have only managed discovering a few pieces of the puzzle, and at the cost of many hours of debugging. What is really needed for a larger group of modders-programmers to tweak some major features of the game in a more time-efficent way, or even for adding new features, is Ubisoft undisclosing game's source code. Them doing so is extremely unlikely though, and SHIII being a more than 10 years old game doesn't make things easier, because SHIV and SH5's codes are heavily based on it. They would rather sell the Silent Hunter franchise as a whole to another publisher/developper, who can pay for it expeting to get their money back.
No matter how motivated or generous we are, we will never get there... :-?

hello Gap,
i agree to that,with sdk ,you can inject whatever you want and change (improve) the gameplay. i think sdk is doing exactly this:saving (a lot) of time searching and suffering. Hex editing without the sdk .... i think is just a torturing

I think it is the same. Just old discussions in "SH5 Mods Workshop" from 2010-2011.
Search for "GR2 files" "Granny" and they often call it "Granny SDK".
So, the fact is, Ubi do not came yet to the idea to give or even sale something to the community. I have not heard so far, that they do such things.
i have the sense that it is different.Granny is something like the s3d editor that Skwajer created for sh4(sh3). it is only for importing-exporting 3d objects and things like s3d editor did.Correct me if i am wrong here but i think that with granny sdk you can't have access at the game's engine.
beside that , there was no granny when sh3 and sh4 was out so why are we talking for granny when our subject is the sh3's sdk ?

Sorry! Just my english is worse.
By "you", I mean not you personally, "but all of us".

sorry from my part too Tycho, i took you wrong:yep:


=============
anyway ...reading back the whole thread i see that most of the discussion is off topic.
the point of my post is the suggestion to ask for a price from ubi for the sdk of sh3 and lets hear what they will say (for whatever reason they may have)
if you think that we haven't even to ask for it,thats fine for me but my stand is that we have nothing to lose

ps: as i noticed that i am only repeating myself , i think that i made my point here so i will keep just watching the thread

[J0313]

I think you should do it Makman. The worst they can do is say no. You will lose nothing by asking. Who knows maybe they will go for it.

[Julhelm]

i have the sense that it is different.Granny is something like the s3d editor that Skwajer created for sh4(sh3). it is only for importing-exporting 3d objects and things like s3d editor did.Correct me if i am wrong here but i think that with granny sdk you can't have access at the game's engine.
That is incorrect. Granny3D is a full game engine. I think what Jeff is fundraising for is only the Granny model exporter. The full SDK would likely set you back hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And the thing about Falcon 4 is that originally the source code was leaked. If that original leak didn't happen, there would be no Allied Force, no Free Falcon and no BMS.

[olddriedseaweed]

It cannot hurt to ask. If they say they want $200.000.00 for an SDK then that may be out of reach, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU DON'T ASK