Problem with 3D model of Wildcat

[Kendras]

Hi,

I have a problem with aspect of a 3D model in game. It was good before I work on it. What I've done : I exported the 3D model of the Wildcat airplane as .obj (+ .mtl file). Then I opened it in wings 3D, I separated it and removed the pilot, then I reassembled it and exported as new .obj. But now, in game, I have no more a smooth surface as before, as you can see :

http://i.imgur.com/bW4u4mk.png

http://i.imgur.com/MDd10zV.png

Why is there this problem ??? How can I solve it ? :06:

[gap]

Can you upload the two versions of the dat file (before and after your modifications) together with your working obj file(s), and post the link here?

[Kendras]

Here are the 2 .dat files : http://www.mediafire.com/file/7jc20xtvc2voc84/wildcat_models.zip

:hmmm:

[HanSolo78]

Hm... :hmmm:

Looks like you saved the new files in wings 3d with more materials like before.

[the_frog]

I think there are several problems.

One is that the removal of the pilot reduced the number of material associated with the model. That menas before re-importing the model into the *.dat remove the respective material/texture from the material list in "linked 3D model" window.

Also, I guess the model has isolated triangle faces around the wheels, partly wrongly inversed. (one may call this effect of excessive edge splitting :-) ) Repairing can be achieved using Meshlab or something similar; Wings3D cannot solve that issue.

Cheers

[Wise]

The original model has topology errors.
The reworked model has the partial correction of these errors. But illiterate. Possibly, accidental. In reworked model there are excess (duplicated) polygons.
Cleaning of model is necessary. Delete the old (broken) polygons. Merge new sections together. "Welding".

[gap]

I think there are several problems.

One is that the removal of the pilot reduced the number of material associated with the model. That menas before re-importing the model into the *.dat remove the respective material/texture from the material list in "linked 3D model" window.

Also, I guess the model has isolated triangle faces around the wheels, partly wrongly inversed. (one may call this effect of excessive edge splitting :-) ) Repairing can be achieved using Meshlab or something similar; Wings3D cannot solve that issue.

Cheers

The original model has topology errors.
The reworked model has the partial correction of these errors. But illiterate. Possibly, accidental. In reworked model there are excess (duplicated) polygons.
Cleaning of model is necessary. Delete the old (broken) polygons. Merge new sections together. "Welding".

Ditto.
I had a look into the model myself, and I saw many of the problems stated by the_frog and by Wise :yep:

The sharp edges on the top of the fuselage are caused by isolated faces. Fixing the problem is a matter of welding them in MeshLab, or with any other program capable of advanced mesh manipulation. I use Mod Tool for that.

Sharp edges + dark triangles on the bottom of the fuselage near the landing gear, in the radiator, and in some of the canopy beams, is caused again by non-contiguous edges, and by those triangles being "twofold", i.e. being composed by two coincident faces welded together, each pointing to opposite directions. The cure is removing manually the faces with wrong normals, and welding the remaining triangles with each other.

Last, I see some redundant meshes, i.e. meshes which are entirely enclosed within the fuselage and cant be seen when the model is assembled. They don't do any harm, but they are consuming computer resources without a valid reason. Removing them is an easy task.

All in all, I think the model is the result of a quick conversion from a format not compatible with the Wavefront (obj) file format. Fixing it is possible, but it will require some tweaks and a general clean-up. If no one else is volunteering for that job, I will put it in my to-do list :up:

[Wise]

@gap
Everything that you have listed, I completely agree with you.:yep:
Manual cleaning of the duplicated welded sides turned inside out, is a nightmare.)):88) :D
https://yadi.sk/d/TQ6ZYJQ3379BKd
Take. I started, and you continue.:)
I have eliminated mistakes, which on screens. Also, has eliminated errors of a lattice of a cabin of the pilot. For elimination of all mistakes long boring fuss is necessary. It is simpler to make new model.:/\\x:

[Kendras]

For elimination of all mistakes long boring fuss is necessary. It is simpler to make new model.:/\\x:

Wow, really ? :eek:

[Wise]

Wow, really ? :eek:Certainly, I exaggerate.:)
But slightly.

[the_frog]

Hello folks,

tried to clean up the model by using Meshlab's "removal of duplicated face", "removal of isolated faces" and some more of those nice filters (there's one that allows for completely removal of edge splitting: "merge adjacent vertices" :03:). Well, the results were mixed because if a mixture of defects. In the end, I noticed much manual clean-up is still required ... as Wise already pointed out, the model's state "is a nightmare".

Gap, good luck ...

[gap]

@gap
Everything that you have listed, I completely agree with you.:yep:
Manual cleaning of the duplicated welded sides turned inside out, is a nightmare.)):88) :D
https://yadi.sk/d/TQ6ZYJQ3379BKd
Take. I started, and you continue.:)

Thank you mate, looks like me you and the_frog started fixing the plane each one on his own, and then started wondering if it was worth all the work involved :haha:


I have eliminated mistakes, which on screens. Also, has eliminated errors of a lattice of a cabin of the pilot.

Do you mean the error in the canopy (i.e. the glass covering the pilot's cabin)? If so, I noticed it and fixed it too :up:


For elimination of all mistakes long boring fuss is necessary. It is simpler to make new model.:/\\x:

as Wise already pointed out, the model's state "is a nightmare".

Gap, good luck ...

Thank you the_frog :)

Talking about the state of the model, I realize how poor/basic it is in general. Maybe we should take Wise's exageration literally, and start working on a better model rather than fixing the current one. :hmm2:

Remodelling the aircraft from scratch is a possibility, but these days free, good quality 3D models of most WWII-era aircraft are available on the web. For a start, I would like to have a look into the detailed model below, but unfortunately I don't have 3DS Max. Can someone download it and save it for me in obj or simple 3ds format?

http://www.cadnav.com/3d-models/model-10481.html

[Wise]

Do you mean the error in the canopy (i.e. the glass covering the pilot's cabin)?No, glasses were normal initially. The lattice (a frame of glasses) had mistakes. Similarly duplicated welded sides with normals in both parties. I have removed this lattice and have made another.Can someone download it and save it for me in obj or simple 3ds format?https://yadi.sk/d/qWd_7NUg37GngW
There is an original file 3ds, original textures and my OBJ+MTL.
Gap, this plane is good, but... Too it is necessary to work with him. To optimize in game. To simplify. In other words, high-poly to transfer to Low-poly.
His present state is no good. 68.000 polygons.

https://s20.postimg.org/fkw3bqirx/001.png


For the plane it is a lot of. Many vessels have much smaller "weight".

[gap]

No, glasses were normal initially. The lattice (a frame of glasses) had mistakes. Similarly duplicated welded sides with normals in both parties. I have removed this lattice and have made another.https://yadi.sk/d/qWd_7NUg37GngW

Yes, I got you :up:


There is an original file 3ds, original textures and my OBJ+MTL.
Gap, this plane is good, but... Too it is necessary to work with him. To optimize in game. To simplify. In other words, high-poly to transfer to Low-poly.
His present state is no good. 68.000 polygons.

For the plane it is a lot of. Many vessels have much smaller "weight".

Thank you! Yes, when I read "highly detailed" in its description, I suspected it encompassed "high poly" too :-?
Some other free-to-use alternatives:

http://www.sharecg.com/v/60638/related/5/3D-Model/Grumman-F4F-Wildcat
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=4b5dd9994c55814ff52a5e4027d22588
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=u76fe5dee-62fe-45f6-925a-f6eff7c8ea25
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=u76fe5dee-62fe-45f6-925a-f6eff7c8ea25

The sharecg model is low poly, but it looks a bit cartoonish. On the other hand the two 3dWarehouse models look much more realistic, but with ca. 100k and 45k polygons each, they are equally unsuitable for the game :hmmm:

[the_frog]

Hello Gap and Wise,

there are two models in the Pack 3D Models collection, from different games. One is a reasonably well looking low-poly version but offerend only in 3ds (Wise, can you take care of that? I do not use 3Dmax ...):
http://p3dm.ru/files/37_grumman-f4f-wildcat-.html

By the way, converting of Sketch-up models often results in numerous fragmented and duplicated triangles. Same problem is also with Flight Simulator models (if I remember right, Sergbuto's Wildcat was converted from Flight Simulator).

Due to these nightmarisch problems I gave up on expanding my personal SH3 world by converting models.

Cheers

[gap]

there are two models in the Pack 3D Models collection, from different games. One is a reasonably well looking low-poly version...

Wow, nicely detailed model with separeted meshes for control planes and other detachable parts (wings need to be cut away from the main chassis though, but that's the least problem), excellent UV-unfolding texture work (by the way: just one texture for the whole model), and it even comes with normal and specular maps! Looks like its author made it with our game in mind... pity that I was making good progress with the other model, but I will happily scrap it. Thank you the_frog! :up:

...but offerend only in 3ds (Wise, can you take care of that? I do not use 3Dmax ...):

Wings3d has an inbound 3ds importer. Model subparts are not in their correct position, but snapping them in their place is an easy job


By the way, converting of Sketch-up models often results in numerous fragmented and duplicated triangles. Same problem is also with Flight Simulator models (if I remember right, Sergbuto's Wildcat was converted from Flight Simulator).

I know: fragmented/duplicated/inverted/redundant/non UV-mapped faces, are common eveninces when converting from Sketch-up models. But not all of them are as bad. At worse use them as template for my own meshes, when I miss good plans/blueprints. This is what I am currently doing for Kendra's lighthouse (though the original conversion wan not that bad) :03:

[the_frog]

... oh my ... I mixed up 3ds and max ... right, wings3D has very good 3ds importer. For maxr, there's no importer ...

When lacking proper plans, I also used exisitng 3d models as templates. I meanwhiel avoid that practice because seemingly many models have been done not based on plans but just on wild guessing ...

[gap]

... oh my ... I mixed up 3ds and max ... right, wings3D has very good 3ds importer. For maxr, there's no importer ...

yep, unlike .3ds, the .max format is a proprietary format. No importer that I know of for it :-?

When lacking proper plans, I also used exisitng 3d models as templates. I meanwhiel avoid that practice because seemingly many models have been done not based on plans but just on wild guessing ...

Well, when you have nothing but your eyes for guessing the proportions of an object, someone else's estimates are better than nothing, especially if compared with photographs of the same object from different angles. By the way, my squid launcher model was mostly done by pure guestimation, and if someone else wanted to create a better representation of it, he would have no better option than using my model as template for his own work (as far as I can understand, there are no other models of it around), unless he had access to original plans indeed :D

P.S: I had a look into the Pack 3D website (thank you for pointing me to it!) and I norticed they even have a Grumman F6F Hellcat model in their collection (an high-poly one though). Has this aircraft ever been released for SHIV?

[the_frog]

... yes, max is a proprietary format and it is not likely an importer will ever come to existence ...

I have a rough plan of the Castle class; it includes plan views of the Squid (size 50 x 150 px for all 5 views -- not very helpful ... :hmmm: ).

I am not aware of any Hellcat in SH3 or SH4 but, note, I am no SH4 expert :salute:

[Wise]

Gap, Frog!
Guys, do not you think that we are too deep into this aircraft problem?
It is worth it? :)
The author of a thread silent, and we are here, as if we solve the main issue Silent Hunter.:D
Personally, I have enough other problems. More important, in my opinion.
:Kaleun_Wink:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212557
You do not?:)
With your permission, here I leave you.:salute:

[Anvar1061]

Personally, I have enough other problems. More important, in my opinion.
:Kaleun_Wink:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212557
You do not?:)
With your permission, here I leave you.:salute:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gif

[the_frog]

Wise, I agree ...

... and will focus on finishing my own project ...

[Kendras]

Thank you very much everyone for taking time to help me with your skill ! :yeah: I just don't understand why it was good before I exported the model ? .... :06:

[Wise]

I just don't understand why it was good before I exported the model ? .... :06:Pass of file OBJ through 3d-programm , i.e. circuit of processes: Import from S3D -- Export in 3d-programm -- Import from 3d-programm -- Export in S3D changes in the OBJ file record about textural coordinates.

[gap]

Gap, Frog!
Guys, do not you think that we are too deep into this aircraft problem?
It is worth it? :)
The author of a thread silent, and we are here, as if we solve the main issue Silent Hunter.:D

Yes, we are. It is worth it? Probably not. Why we are into it? Personally because a subsim friend asked for our help, and because I love everything that is related with WWII, (naval) simulations, 3D modelling and Silent Hunter games :subsim: :D

Personally, I have enough other problems. More important, in my opinion.
:Kaleun_Wink:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212557
You do not?:)
With your permission, here I leave you.:salute:

Wise, I agree ...

... and will focus on finishing my own project ...

Roger that.
Thank you for your unvaluable help. I wish you many pleasant hours with your own projects. Looking forward to them :up: :salute:

Thank you very much everyone for taking time to help me with your skill ! :yeah: I just don't understand why it was good before I exported the model ? .... :06:

Good question, but I have no plausible answer for that, only some undemonstrated guesses that are not worth being mentioned here. The one thing I can say for sure, is that it looked okay (some problems are partly visible even in the original unit), but from the beginning it was not good. There is no way that S3d can corrupt a model that way once exported :yep:

Pass of file OBJ through 3d-programm , i.e. circuit of processes: Import from S3D -- Export in 3d-programm -- Import from 3d-programm -- Export in S3D changes in the OBJ file record about textural coordinates.

More or less what I was going to say. Vertex order gets rearranged when passing from a program to another one, so faces that might have been hidden below other faces in the original unit, might have become apparent after passing the model through Wings3D. If so, we should assume that the original author was lucky that all the problems affecting the model didn't show up at first, unless he made something for hiding them that I don't know. But I repeat, one thing is sure: the model was flawed from the beginning...

[the_frog]

Gap, kendras!

All airplane models converted from early versions of Combat Flight Simulator to SH3 have these kind of flaws. Well, these models were among the first ones to enter SH3 and were done when modding was not as easy as to today (there was no S3Ditor, just some cloning programme, the rest was hex-ing).

Cheers