The excessive dimensions of the maps in SH II to SH V

[Rick Fortens]

Have you noticed that the maps in those games are abnormaly large : along the equator, from the meridian 0 to the meridian 1 for instance, there is 120 Km. On the real earth it is 111,195 Km. Worse, it is exactly the same, for instance, at 80 degrees of latitude: Between the same two meridians, there’s still have 120 Km (and it took the same time, at the same speed, to run the two distances in a sub in a test mission). But, in those latitudes, and because that all meridians finaly rejoined each other at the pole, there’s remains, on the real earth, only 19 Km to run to join the same two lines. With the consequence that, in the game, the distance between Oslo and Helsinki is about 1700 Km, while, in the real life, it’s under 800. With the consequence also that the campain game is far to long to run, and not realistic either.

I’ve figured that out when I try to reconstruct the journey of the Bismarck in a single mission : between two historical coordinates and hours, the ship should have to run at 64 knots to join the two points in time, a speed that the Bismarck never reached. That’s also why the single missions in the game always begins near to there objectives.

So ... Finding those facts weird, I have tried to correct the problem. Using the marvelous tool named SH3 Terrain Extractor, I extract all the necessary parts of the map and entirely reconstruct the North Atlantic. There is the result :

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6BC6548A5B387D53!323&authkey=!AIcFhQUlG12IOwI&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1017&pictureid=8786
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/F:\JEUX VIDÉO\SilentHunterIII\MODS\SH3 Terrain Extractor 021b\EDITEURcopiehttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6BC6548A5B387D53!323&authkey=!AIcFhQUlG12IOwI&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpghttps://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=6BC6548A5B387D53!323&authkey=!AIcFhQUlG12IOwI&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpghttps://onedrive.live.com/?cid=6BC6548A5B387D53&id=6BC6548A5B387D53!323&parId=6BC6548A5B387D53!322&o=OneUp
With this map, the distances remains, in diagonal, a bit to long, but incomparably more accurate than the former one. Now, Oslo and Helsinki are about the proper distance from each other. It’s also the case from Brest to New Foundland.

I would like to know what you think about I’ve said about the huge dimension of the maps in Silent Hunter. Am I wright or am I only lost ? I would like to know also what you think about the work I’ve done on it.

I just hope that my English is understandable. Waiting for your answers.

Silenthunterly yours,
From Québec city,
Richard Rick Fortens

[desertstriker]

to add a picture you need to upload it to a image sharing site like photobucket or image shack, facebook sometimes works as well.

[Rick Fortens]

to add a picture you need to upload it to a image sharing site like photobucket or image shack, facebook sometimes works as well.

Thanks a lot. I finaly put it in my profil in the Subsim site itself. Now, everybody can see it.

Rick

[desertstriker]

I forgot the last step (DOH!)
when posting to a thread there is a little bar with several things just above the textbox. click on the icon that looks like a picture with a mountain and sun/moon and post the image URL in it.

[mikey117us]

Our SHIII World is not elliptical like real earth. And in the scene.dat file for GWX for instance world diameter is only 99999.0 km in diameter. The Real Navigation Mod had some great information on work arounds. My interest is the Route "The Great Circle" moving into Northern oceans first before the western turn. Therefore a shorter distance to Halifax.

[Pablo]

I would like to know what you think about I’ve said about the huge dimension of the maps in Silent Hunter. Am I wright or am I only lost ? I would like to know also what you think about the work I’ve done on it.

I just hope that my English is understandable. Waiting for your answers.

Silenthunterly yours,
From Québec city,
Richard Rick Fortens
Hi!

You are correct that the world of SH3 is bigger than the real world, and that SH3 is played on a flat projection of a spherical surface. The most noticeable in-game effect was that Type IXB U-boats couldn't make it from Europe to North America and back on one tank of gas.

GWX addressed this problem by giving U-boats additional range: we boosted the range of the Type II U-boats by ~33% and the range of all other U-boats by ~25%. It did not solve the issue for campaign or scenario builders of ships being unable to reach their destinations on historical dates using historical speeds, but it did mitigate the immediate problem of U-boats running out of fuel when they did not do so historically.

Hope this helps!

Pablo

[Hitman]

I wish we could have a mercator projection map for SH3 (Which we had in Aces of the Deep!), would make life much easier :wah:

[Pablo]

Our SHIII World is not elliptical like real earth. And in the scene.dat file for GWX for instance world diameter is only 99999.0 km in diameter. The Real Navigation Mod had some great information on work arounds. My interest is the Route "The Great Circle" moving into Northern oceans first before the western turn. Therefore a shorter distance to Halifax.
Hi!

The circumference of the earth in real life is about 40,000 km, so 99,999 seemed big enough. :)

Hope this helps!

Pablo

[Tycho]

scene.dat have nothing to do with that, and there it is Earth Radius, in meters/10, in my scene.dat it is 2500000,0, but the world is still the same.

In SH3 world, length on every line of latitude is 360°x120km=43200km,
and every line of longitude is 180°x120km=21600km.

Rick Fortens, are you are able to change this dimension, or you just relocated the land?
What happen then with navigation map, you must also rework it, because if navigation map is not equal to the terrain....
Another thing that I can think of is climate zones file, you must rework it, to not be that the game draw some desert over East USA coast for example.

[SquareSteelBar]

...The diameter of the earth in real life is about 40,000 km...What earth are you talking about?

Is there another one out in space? :o

[Von Due]

What earth are you talking about?

Is there another one out in space? :o

Actually, the diameter is about 41.8 except that's not in km but in millions of feet :har: or about 12,000 km.

As for the original post, and just repeating really, yeah, we sim sub captains sail on Planet Cylinder, one reason (apart from the save/load issue) the sunrise and sunset times for a given coordinate are messy. As a result of this peculiar planetary design, the longitude lines are parallell in every Euclidian sense of the word and the distances get wacky when you go north or south of Equator..

I would be VERY interested in having a look at work done to make a curved world surface, if only for the North Atlantic, and, one can dream, the arctic ocean.

[Pablo]

What earth are you talking about?

Is there another one out in space? :o

Actually, the diameter is about 41.8 except that's not in km but in millions of feet :har: or about 12,000 km.



Ha! That's what I get for typing before awaking. The correct word was not "diameter of about 40,000km " but "circumference of about 40,000km." :)

Pablo

[Rick Fortens]

In SH3 world, length on every line of latitude is 360°x120km=43200km,
and every line of longitude is 180°x120km=21600km.

Rick Fortens, are you are able to change this dimension, or you just relocated the land?
What happen then with navigation map, you must also rework it, because if navigation map is not equal to the terrain....
Another thing that I can think of is climate zones file, you must rework it, to not be that the game draw some desert over East USA coast for example.

No, I’m not able to change this dimension; I think it’s impossible. Yes, I just relocate the land. But, I have already reworked the navigation map because I have reworked the terrain. The both maps are the same : It’s one and only map (and for me, by the way, it’s a big problem: it should’nt be). I have already re-introduced the north sea in the nav map AND in the terrain and navigate It. It’s working. For the moment I’ve just done the North sea, as a test, and because it takes a lot of time.

But, of course, coordinates system remains the same. Kiel, for instance, is no longer at the same coordinates. The north sea is no longer named "AN" in the Kriegsmarin planquadrat system. In fact, only the town of Greenwich remains at the 0 longitude.

But the distances are now correct. There are about 800 km between Oslo and Helsinki and no longer 1700.

As you make me remarked, I forgot the climat zone, but I think it’s fixable also.

Here’s my new Wilhelmshaven bay terrain in the nav map in the game :

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1017&pictureid=8798

Thanks for the answer.

[Tycho]

I don't see any of your screenshots, here and in the first post.

As you make me remarked, I forgot the climat zone, but I think it’s fixable also.
Yes, it is fixable. Just some days ago I made my own TerrainTypes.raw (Climate zones).

The north sea is no longer named "AN" in the Kriegsmarin planquadrat system.
And, here you lost me. :-?

[Fahnenbohn]

Yes, it is fixable. Just some days ago I made my own TerrainTypes.raw (Climate zones).

:o How did you do that ?! Are they many errors in the stock SH3 game about climate zones ??

[Rick Fortens]

I don't see any of your screenshots, here and in the first post.

And now ?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1017&pictureid=8786

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1017&pictureid=8799



And, here you lost me. :-?

In the kriegsmarine system of squares to devide the ocean the North sea is usualy named "AN". Look on the nav map in the game.

[Rick Fortens]

I would be VERY interested in having a look at work done to make a curved world surface, if only for the North Atlantic, and, one can dream, the arctic ocean.

Have you been able to see my screenshots ?

For the artic ocean, I can’t be of any help, but if you are interested in my works, no problem : just tell me what you want to know or see about.

[Tycho]

And now ?
Yes, now are visible.

And, here you lost me. :-?
In the kriegsmarine system of squares to devide the ocean the North sea is usualy named "AN". Look on the nav map in the game.
I mean, that if Kriegsmarine grids are not correct, it is not interesting anymore for me.

:o How did you do that ?!
I think that Photoshop open it, but I don't use Photoshop.
So I make it with PaintNet as .tga, and then convert it with another software.
If you are interested, will show you tonight.

Are they many errors in the stock SH3 game about climate zones ??
I don't know. Because I made complete new one, have not examined in detail the original file. Well, I saw some shades that are not indexed in Terrain.cfg, but it's just a pixels here and there, in such a places that I will not go to the Machu Picchu cornfields to see what happen there. :)

[Anvar1061]

Just some days ago I made my own TerrainTypes.raw (Climate zones).

Where you can download them?

[Fahnenbohn]

I think that Photoshop open it, but I don't use Photoshop.
So I make it with PaintNet as .tga, and then convert it with another software.
If you are interested, will show you tonight.

Yes i am. You're thinking about teamviewer ?

[Tycho]

Yes i am. You're thinking about teamviewer ?
Sorry, I came home too late, terrain types thing will wait for tomorrow.

[Fahnenbohn]

Sorry, I came home too late, terrain types thing will wait for tomorrow.

ok for this evening ?

[Tycho]

ok for this evening ?
Sorry for delay: here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=225726)

[Zenpachou]

Holy cow. I knew the world map was distorted, but I had no idea it was to that extent :o

[shadow_wxh]

This is one of the major problem affect game realism.The further you go north or south the more east-west distance are strentched.This make almost the long distance travel time inaccurate by a huge factor.

One way the navy plot were made is too strentch both north-south and east-wast as you move towards earth poles.This way the bearings getween objects are reserved but the distances can not be directly measured.Like these ones:
https://i.insider.com/529fafdcecad04272adb2390?width=1136&format=jpeg
https://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/shadow_wxh/Action%20of%20the%20Bismarck%20and%20Prinze%20Euge n.jpg


The way SH3 simulate the enviroment compromise both.Neither distances nor bearings are accurate.This makes plotting in champain file really difficult to resemble actually historical time the place.https://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/shadow_wxh/SH3_Fullmap.png

One way I overcome the issue is make a few "jumps" alone the waypoints the compensate the distance strenches,but this is not a very good solution.Still wondering if it is possible to resolve this by modification alone.