Historical Mk 14 use

[Barkerov]

Fellow skippers, I have been doing some research on the Mk 14 and how real skippers were told to use it at different times up to and beyond September 43.

I have come up with the following
8th Dec 41 - 4th April 42: skippers were ordered to use the magnetic influence feature and no one had any idea that they ran too deep

4th April 42 - 1st August 42: BuOrd advises that the Mk 14 torpedo runs four feet deep. So skippers should aim shallower by 4 feet but still use the magnetic influence feature

1st August 42 - 24th June 43: BuOrd finally conceded the Mark 14 ran deep by 10-12 feet. Skippers are ordered to aim shallower by this amount

24th June 43 - Sept 43: Admiral Lockwood (COMSUBPAC) orders his skippers to deactivate the magnetic influence feature. Admiral Christie (COMSUBSOWESPAC) orders his Australian based boats to continue using the magnetic influence feature.

Sept 43 onward: This is where I get confused. In the game it seems Mk 14 just works as intended now. Am I wrong in thinking you don't have to aim shallower and the magnetic influence feature just works?
The problem I have with this is that it never worked, they just stopped using it or more specifically Lockwood stopped using it. Christie persisted with it and it wasn't until November 43 (or 20 Jan 44 when the order came into effect) when Kinkaid ordered the deactivation of the magnetic influence feature in all commands that the issue was finally resolved.

It is also unclear to me if they ever actually fixed the deep running issue. Do I still have to aim shallower by 10-12 feet?

I am happy to be proven wrong about any of the above as long as you can provide the proof. I just want to use mk 14s in game as closely as it was for the real skippers.

[TorpX]

An interesting topic, isn't it?

I've reviewed a couple sources just recently to 'fix' the *.sim file in my game, so I was trying to pin down some of the same issues.

I have come up with the following
8th Dec 41 - 4th April 42: skippers were ordered to use the magnetic influence feature and no one had any idea that they ran too deep

4th April 42 - 1st August 42: BuOrd advises that the Mk 14 torpedo runs four feet deep. So skippers should aim shallower by 4 feet but still use the magnetic influence feature

On thing that is in the game that isn't authentic is the ability to turn on/off the M.I. feature. It came with the Mk. 6 exploder, and was always working, unless disabled (by cutting wires I believe).

Some skippers became suspicious about it, and had their torpedo men disable it, but were risking their careers. So it isn't a matter of BuOrd telling crews to use it. It's in the exploder and operational already. As far as the navy was concerned, it was being used until Lockwood decides to order it's deactivation.

Sept 43 onward: This is where I get confused. In the game it seems Mk 14 just works as intended now. Am I wrong in thinking you don't have to aim shallower and the magnetic influence feature just works? It shouldn't. After Lockwood orders deactivation, that settles it for his boats - No M.I. use. Most likely the exploders issued at from Lockwood's depots were altered - permanently. Christie stubbornly insisted his boats continue using it. That doesn't mean it worked any better than before. In the game, at a certain date the exploder version is no longer capable of M.I. detonation, regardless of what position the little switch is at.



Here is a (admittedly incomplete) timeline for the issue I'm using: War start.

Forces use Mk. 6 exploder with M.I. feature. It is new, complex, secret and not well understood by crews or commanders. It is designed to detonate the warhead under the target, doing far more damage. It has a contact mechanism, based on older design exploders, as a 'backup'. Only very limited field testing has been done, due to the cost of the torpedoes.



Early months

Skippers report problems, but these are generally chalked up to poor aiming or improper procedures. It is suspected that torpedoes might be running under targets.



March '42

Fife conducts tests which show torpedoes are running deep. BuOrd angrily disputes results, but further tests confirm this. Forces told to set torpedoes to run at higher depth to compensate.



Early - mid '42

Torpedoes are set to run shallow, but problems continue. Now, skippers report more torpedoes are exploding prematurely. The commands realize the Mk. 6 is flawed, but have nothing better to use. Worse yet, a simple contact exploder is not considered to be a good alternative, because there is a critical shortage of torpedoes, and the magnetic influence feature offers (in theory) a way to sink ships with a single hit.



January '43


Depth control problem fixed. BuOrd states torpedoes will run within 3 or 4 feet of set depth.



July '43

After continued problem reports, Lockwood orders deactivation of M.I. feature of Mk. 6 exploder. This eliminates the problem of premature detonations. Torpedoes are to be aimed for contact hits.



September '43

After many reports of dud torpedoes, Lockwood has exploders tested by dropping on a steel plate. This reveals another design flaw in the Mk. 6; the impact forces often cause guide rails to bend, and the firing pins to miss, or jam. Work starts on a fix. Meanwhile, forces are advised to alter track angles. (Meaning to attempt glancing hits in preference to perpendicular hits.)



October - November '43

Commands start issuing modified Mk. 6 exploder. It uses a light alloy component to reduce inertial forces at impact, but retains the basic design.

[I'm not sure if unaltered exploders continued in use, or not. Seems unlikely Asiatic fleet had them that soon. This modified design seems to have been successful, but this is based only on a absence of evidence to the contrary.]



December '43

Testing begins on a new design exploder. This uses a ball switch to electrically detonate the warhead. This is a contact only design, and is said to be designed so that it will work even if the unit is flooded. I don't know when this went into production, though. [Seems unlikely these would have been available before Apr. '44 at the earliest. This design was retained postwar.]



Note that the Mk. 14 torpedo itself worked pretty well. Most of the navy's torpedo problems can be laid at the feet of the Mk. 6 exploder. I'm not sure when, or if, the depth control problem was completely eliminated. My sources are not too precise. Little is said about the final design of exploder, as the authors considered the matter solved shortly after Lockwood's drop tests.

Little is said about the Mk. 10, Mk. 13, or Mk. 15 torpedoes, so far as reliability, or dud/exploder problems. The Mk. 13 never used the Mk. 6, as far as I know.

Most of the above comes from IRON MEN AND TIN FISH by Anthony Newpower.



You didn't say what mods you are using. The date, features, and failure rates of the torps are alterable. They are in the Torpedoes_US.sim files of the game.

[Barkerov]

I considered several sources but couldnt get my hands on any of the books in a short space of time. I find it interesting that you have also observed the way the problems with the exploder were clearly described but after diagnosis it gets unclear how exactly these were resolved. The depth running is the least mentioned solution.

The mk 15 would have had the same dud rate as the mk 14 I suspect since they are only a surface ship variant of the mk 14. Both used the mk6 exploder. Furthermore it was Kinkaid that gave the all encompassing order to stop using them and he was a surface fleet guy right?

I am using RFB which seems to have a simple sept 43 switch to flawless torps. I wont alter the files (but I might take your alterations if you want to share) I will just discipline myself to fire them the way that matches the historical settings for the given time period. So after Sept 43 it will be contact hits only for me with no firing shallow consideration.

[scubamatt]

I'm running TMO 2.5, and its early war. I haven't yet used any of the Mk 14s, but if I want to avoid as many problems as possible (without altering game files etc) I should set my depth shallower, use contact only detonation, and try to hit my targets at an angle less than 90 degrees?

[Fish40]

Yes, Yes, and Yes. I have great success early war using a 45 degree approach. You could still use high speed settings doing this because the "off" angle offsets the high impact speed.

[flieslikeabrick]

In TMO 2.5 I have a rather low failure rate with my preferred way of attacking targets:

Shallow depth, 2-3m always
Pistols set to magnetic+impact
70 to 90 degree impact
Low speed(that range is awesome) especially for night attacks, I only use high speed for warships and day attacks(reduces their chances of evasion)
Most important: don't bother attacking in 15m/s winds.

Does anyone else have a similar experience with MK14s? Only about 1 in 8 of my torps detonate prematurely and I don't remember having them ever run deep.

[Rockin Robbins]

Interestingly, there was a group of submarines which routinely dismantled their torpedoes for "refurbishment" and whose crews altered the exploder mechanisms. The examples I've found had the torpedomen trying to tell the captain what they were up to and the captain saying, "do what you have to do and I don't have to know about it. You're just routinely maintaining the torpedoes."

Successful early war subs dismantled and restored components to specs on a schedule or every time the torpedoes got wet in their tubes but weren't used. They were much more successful than those who blindly trusted the torpedoes to work.

Ironically, violating orders, delving into the top secret magnetic exploder and "adjusting" it resulted in better results. But the rules precluded any official reporting of just what they were up to. That concealed the fact that there was an inherent problem with the torpedo and cost the careers of many submarine commanders early in the war.

Cheating on the rules makes the brass think their rules work. The right thing to do is to follow the rules, let all the torpedoes not explode and then you're taken out of your command. The wrong thing to do is game the system, torpedoes explode and if you're discovered you're taken out of your command. One is a sure thing, the other is a gamble. Wise skippers chose to gamble.

[Aktungbby]

Fellow skippers, I have been doing some research on the Mk 14 and how real skippers were told to use it at different times up to and beyond September 43.




I am happy to be proven wrong about any of the above as long as you can provide the proof. I just want to use mk 14s in game as closely as it was for the real skippers. :up: http://www.ww2pacific.com/torpedo.html (http://www.ww2pacific.com/torpedo.html) In the first four months of the war, the 27 subs that comprised the Asiatic fleet sank only ten ships. Most skippers were replaced with more agressive men. Yet problems continued. On 1 August 1942, BuOrd finally conceded the Mark 14 ran deep. On 9 April 1943 "Tunny (SS-282) found herelf in an ideal position to attack aircraft carriers Hiyo, Junyo, and Taiyo. From only 880 yards (perfect, close range), he fired all ten tubes, hearing all four stern shots and three of the bow's six explode. No enemy carrier was seen to diminish its speed. Later, intelligence reported each of the seven explosions had been premature; the torpedoes had run true but the magnetic feature had fired them too early. Finally, in July 1943, Admiral Lockwood ordered his boats to deactivate the magnetic influence exploder." "Duds" -- torpedoes heard to hit but not explode -- were addressed in September 1943 when the first torpedoes with new contact pistols were sent to war. For fully half of the war, submariners, pilots, and destroyermen had risked their lives with faulty equipment. REquired reading: (pg 33-34) http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550699.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550699.pdf) Even Einstein was brought inhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Einstein_tongue.jpg/220px-Einstein_tongue.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Einstein_tongue.jpg)(what he thought of Ordinance admirals) to work on the XIV's trigger contact-exploder problem at $25 dollars a day!; he was ignored...good thing FDR paid better attention to his other concepts!:huh:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Einstein-Roosevelt-letter.png/350px-Einstein-Roosevelt-letter.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Einstein-Roosevelt-letter.png)(enlarges) or else... これは日本語で書かれるだろうか !:sunny: http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/samurai-suicide-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/samurai.suicide-emoticon-1672.html)

[Barkerov]

REquired reading: (pg 33-34) http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550699.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550699.pdf) Even Einstein was brought in(what he thought of Ordinance admirals) to work on the XIV's trigger contact-exploder problem at $25 dollars


So this looks like Nimitz also ordered the deactivation of the magnetic exploders. It's astonishing that Christie still didn't even follow that order.

But it looks like my timeline was reasonably close which is nice to know.

[slipf18]

In the game even in the later years the incidence of torpedos running deep is greater than the incidence of premature detonation.

At least for me....

[Rockin Robbins]

That is the reason every torpedo I fire is set to run as shallow as I can set it.

[Barkerov]

Has anyone noticed if the AI reacts sooner to shallower torpedoes? I am guessing that in real life it would be easier to spot the bubble trail of a shallower torpedo but then again the difference may not be appreciable.

[slipf18]

That is the reason every torpedo I fire is set to run as shallow as I can set it.

Yeah sometimes I forget. And sometimes they still go underneath the target.