Squid launcher

[LGN1]

Hi,

I have uploaded a Squid launcher for SH3. It can be found here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=4807

Enjoy being slaughtered :gulp: :lost:

Regards, LGN1


Readme:

Squid Mod for SH3

LGN1 April 2016

Model done by gap!
------------------

Version 2.0

This mod provides a squid launcher for SH3 (see, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_(weapon) ).

In order to add the squid launcher to a ship, activate the mod, and use either 'SSquid' (single launcher) or 'DSquid' (double launcher) in a ship's *.eqp file (see the GWX version of this mod for examples).


Since the mod is based on the in-game hedgehog, it has two drawbacks:

1.) No graphical representation of the thrown depth-charges.
I couldn't find a way to reduce the amount of projectiles fired by the Hedgehog (24). Thus, I have made the projectiles invisible above and below the water. However, three splashes on the water surface can be seen (and bubbles below the water).

2.) No historical parameters (sink rate, firing range,...)
Using historical parameters for the depth-charges/squid leads to very poor results. The escorts simply do not hit anything because the aiming routines do not properly take these values into account. The AI simply cannot perform a true squid attack how it was done in WWII. Therfore, I have adapted the sink rate of the depth-charges, the firing range, and the pattern to yield 'historical' results. My guideline was to achieve a realistic hit rate and to have a similar area covered as the true squid did. I have made quite a few tests to optimise the different parameters. Depending on the mods you are using, different parameters might be better for you. Feel free to test the mod and adapt the parameters to your liking.

In the present version of the mod the squid launcher's DCs are less dangerous than they historically were. After WWII the Admirality estimated that the chance of a u-boat to survive a single squid attack was about 50%! Since such a value would be very boring from a game-play point-of-view, I have increased the survival chances by weakening the DCs. Feel free to adapt the DCs hitpoints if you don't like this.

Historically, the Castle class and the Loch class were fitted with squid. I'm not aware of any models for these two ships. Therefore, I recommend to use the squid with their predecessors, the Flower class and River class (although the Flower class could not be equipped with a squid due to the strong recoil).

The mod contains two JSGME-ready versions. One contains only the Squid launcher without any other files, the other contains the squid launcher together with modified eqp files for GWX. In addition, a modified U505 mission (for GWX) is also provided for testing purposes (no French version).


Credits: The fantastic model for this mod was done by gap! Thank you very much for this great work!


Cheers, LGN1

Not for comercial use!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/flower_single_squid_pattern1_5X9.jpg

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/river_double_squid_uZs.jpg

[padi]

Great! Hopefully you can adjust the drawbacks sometimes in the future!

[LGN1]

Hi padi,

thanks for the feedback. Maybe some of the drawbacks can be removed, however, at least from a game-play point-of-view the current version works already very well.

Regards, LGN1

[padi]

Somewhere in the forum I have read that someone has already build the squid.

[LGN1]

Hi padi,

I have also read this, however, I have never seen a release; neither a 3d model nor a 'game-play' mod. IIRC, Privateer/Jeff-Groves once mentioned this.

I really would like to know how others would do an in-game squid (without exe changes).

Regards, LGN1

[sublynx]

However, to give at least some graphical hint about the depth-charges, I have kept the (24) splashes and 24 depth-charges below the surface. If this is not wanted, it can be easily changed with S3d.

3.) No historical parameters (sink rate, firing range,...)


So a graphical hint is there, but how about the sound hint? It's the same sound as a hedgehog launch? Could the sound be changed?

[LGN1]

Hi sublynx,

the current sound is from the hedgehog. However, I don't see any reason why this should not be changeable.

But as long as I don't have an idea how to reduce the number of projectiles, I don't want to spend time on this. As a game-play mod it works fine and for all players who do not use the external camera it doesn't matter at all.

For my personal taste it would be great to have a 3d model of the launcher, however, as I have said, it's not crucial from a game-play perspective.

Regards, LGN1

PS: A Castle-class corvette from the_Frog would be really great :D

[Jeff-Groves]

No gonna promise anything but I'll look into a few things if time allows.
That's a big IF at this time.
Still got things I'd like to do on the VII-A I haven't touched since March!

guns.sim
wpn_Hedgehog
ammo_storage
launches = 10 (< changed that did you?)

[LGN1]

Hi Jeff,

nice to see you! Any ideas are welcomed!

The launch value does not change the number of projectiles per salvo. I think it only changes the number of salvos (i.e., Hedgehog reloads).

Regards, LGN1

[LGN1]

Hi all,

does anyone have blueprints of a squid launcher? Or good pictures from different angles? Or some size values of the launcher, e.g., diameter (was 12 inch), barrel length, barrel angle,...?

Regards, LGN1

[Anvar1061]

Hi all,

does anyone have blueprints of a squid launcher? Or good pictures from different angles? Or some size values of the launcher, e.g., diameter (was 12 inch), barrel length, barrel angle,...?

Regards, LGN1

http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/07/1343074520_Squid3-launchers-HMS-Loch-Fada-1944.jpg
http://www.balancer.ru/cache/sites/ru/ra/radikal/s008/i306/1506/78/640x640/3ac321304b94.jpg
http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=239571&download=1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/HMCS_Haida_Hamilton_Ontario_june07_11.jpg/1280px-HMCS_Haida_Hamilton_Ontario_june07_11.jpg
http://scalemodels.ru/images/2012/07/1343074517_Squid1-bomb-markings-diagram.jpg

[LGN1]

Hi,

I'm currently working on a new, much improved, version. For this I need to know the armor values of the different u-boat hulls (data/submarine/nss_uboat*/nss_uboat*.zon --> Collisionable Object --> ArmorLevel) for different super mods.

GWX: 10
Stock: 25
NYGM:?
LSH:?
WAC:?
CCOM:?
....

It would be a great help if users of the different mods could provide the values!

Regards, LGN1

[Tycho]

NYGM

Playable U-boats

NSS_Uboat2A
NSS_Uboat2D
NSS_Uboat7b
NSS_Uboat7c
NSS_Uboat9b
NSS_Uboat9c
NSS_Uboat9d2
ArmorLevel = 25,0

NSS_Uboat21
ArmorLevel = 28,0


AI boats
NSS_Uboat7a
NSS_Uboat7f
ArmorLevel = 12,3125

NSS_Uboat9b14
NSS_Uboat10b
NSS_Uboat23
ArmorLevel = 25,0

[LGN1]

Thanks a lot, Tycho!

Does anyone know the values for LSH and WAC?

Regards, LGN1

[La vache]

LSHV15

NSS_Uboat2A =22
NSS_Uboat2D =22
NSS_Uboat7b =25
NSS_Uboat7c =25
NSS_Uboat9b =25
NSS_Uboat9c =25
NSS_Uboat9d2 =25
NSS_Uboat21 =28

_____________________
GUCv1

NSS_Uboat21 =10


Regards, La vache

[makman94]

WAC v4.1

NSS_X-craft = 25
NSS_UboatRU = 20
NSS_Uboat23 = 25
NSS_Uboat21 = 10
NSS_Uboat9d2 = 22
NSS_Uboat9c = 22
NSS_Uboat9b4 = 25
NSS_Uboat9b = 22
NSS_Uboat7d = 25
NSS_Uboat7c41 = 25
NSS_Uboat7c = 22
NSS_Uboat7b = 22
NSS_Uboat7a = 12,3125
NSS_Uboat2D = 22
NSS_Uboat2B = 22
NSS_Uboat2A = 22
NSS_Uboat_XXI = 28
NSS_SclassUS_sm = 12,3125
NSS_SclassUS = 12,3125

[LGN1]

Thanks, guys! This helps a lot! :up:

Best, LGN1

[gap]

@ BL!TZKR!EG

I have just realized that you tried getting in touch with me through PM. Unfortunately my subsim message box is full. I am sorry for that and for kidnapping LGN1's thread.

If you want you can get in touch with me through my skype address, which you can find here on the left in the avatar are, or if the topic you want to is relative to some mod in particular, you can make a post in its thread dropping a link to it in this thread (sorry again LHN1 :oops:)

gap off :salute:

PS: @ LGN1: good mod! If you wan I can try modelling squeed and squid thrower :)

[Fahnenbohn]

If these three drawbacks can be removed (by partly delegating that work to GFX-capable guys), this mod could really add to the game.

Yeah ! I think so !!! I can't wait to see such a weapon in action ! :timeout: :yeah:

[gap]

I was inspired by your mod to create a model of the AS "Squid" projectile, in case you find a way to limit the number of charges dropped by the thrower to three.

The 576-vertices 1100-polygons model is based on the drawing posted by Anvar, and it measures ca. 305 cm (12 in) in diameter and ca. 150 cm in legth.

Paint colour, markings and other details featured by the model were taken from the drawing mentioned above and from some photographs I found on the web. Nonetheless, most of those pictures portrayed later versions of the squid bomb. It is possible that under some respect the model is not a fully accurate representation of the WWII marks, but it should get close anyway.

https://i.imgur.com/mXW1TFm.png

Let me know if you would like me to send the model your way :)

Next, I plan to model the squid thrower. It will take a bit longer though, mostly because I couldn't find any technical drawing of the real thing, and I will be forced to infer some features and general proportions from photographs.

[Fahnenbohn]

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u359/taneshikimano/Squid%20Bomb.png


Next, I plan to model the squid thrower.

http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/bien/ANIMbien028.gif http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/bien/ANIMbien045.gif

[sublynx]

You guys are amazing. It's incredible how you keep this ancient game alive and kicking.

[gap]

I couldn't find a way to reduce the amount of projectiles fired by the Hedgehog (24).

What about setting the launcher as a three-barrelled K-gun DC thrower, using the wpn_KGun controller rather than relying on the wpn_Hedgehog one? I know there might be some shortcomings in doing that, but I think it is worth a try anyway. :hmm2:

[LGN1]

Hi gap, hi all,

thanks for the interest! I already could improve the mod, but before a release I'm waiting for another improvement/input.

@gap: Thanks for offering to model a squid thrower and for modelling the DC! I will send you a PM with some more information.

I have tried to use the KGun, however, it always fired the DCs when all the other DCs were fired/dropped. Thus, it didn't hit anything (I guess the aiming routine for DCs is just not suited for ATWs (Ahead-throwing weapons). That's why I have chosen to use the HH. However, maybe I missed something, so it might be a good idea if someone else also tries it...

Regards, LGN1

PS: Gap, would it be possible to delete some of your PM so that I can send you one?

[gap]

Hi gap, hi all,

thanks for the interest! I already could improve the mod, but before a release I'm waiting for another improvement/input.

:up:


I have tried to use the KGun, however, it always fired the DCs when all the other DCs were fired/dropped. Thus, it didn't hit anything (I guess the aiming routine for DCs is just not suited for ATWs (Ahead-throwing weapons). That's why I have chosen to use the HH. However, maybe I missed something, so it might be a good idea if someone else also tries it...

I feared such a problem. If you send me your testing files I can see if there is anything we can do, though I see it difficult. :)


@gap: Thanks for offering to model a squid thrower and for modelling the DC! I will send you a PM with some more information.

[...]

PS: Gap, would it be possible to delete some of your PM so that I can send you one?

I need to delete 60 messages :doh:
Can you get in touch through skype? From there I will give you my private e-mail address :salute:

[gap]

Found a few more pictures of the AS Mortar Mk IV (this was the official name of our squid launcher) on Flickr (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/sarge_schultz/sets/72157625585104515/):

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5290/5308407076_fb4b068ec1.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5129/5308407004_1f8b30215b.jpg http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5307819019_b37d09daea.jpg

The new model is coming along nicely by the way :smug:

https://i.imgur.com/1qznkdz.png

[Fahnenbohn]

The new model is coming along nicely by the way :smug:

Yeah, not bad ! Keep up the good work guys !!

[LGN1]

:up:



I feared such a problem. If you send me your testing files I can see if there is anything we can do, though I see it difficult. :)



I need to delete 60 messages :doh:
Can you get in touch through skype? From there I will give you my private e-mail address :salute:

Hi gap,

my test file was very simple. I just moved a K-gun node in the *.dat file to the bow and rotated it to point forward. With S3D it took just a few seconds to achieve this.

Unfortunately, I don't have a skype account.

I have also found a video of the thrower in your pictures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71W3-umdkH0

And a few more shots:

http://s661.photobucket.com/user/8Hussar/library/Allied%20Naval%20Guns%20and%20Weapons/Squid%20Anti-Sub%20Mortar?sort=3&page=1

Regards, LGN1

[gap]

my test file was very simple. I just moved a K-gun node in the *.dat file to the bow and rotated it to point forward. With S3D it took just a few seconds to achieve this.

This is how I would do it:

-adjust wpn_Kgun controller's ranges to about 250 m (you can have as many "ranges" array items as you want, so maybe it will help having more than one of them, each with a different setting, so to allow more flexibility).

- if you are using a regular Kgun as template, add two more barrel nodes to it so to have three depth charges thrown at once, one for each barrel. I am not sure if barrels need a 3D mesh attached to them in order to work. If so, for the moment you can attach some dummy model to the new barrels, and set it to invisible.

- adjust barrel nodes' pitch (i.e. x axis rotation) to about 45 deg: this was the approximate elevation of squid laucher's barrels.

- adjust the yaw (y axis rotation) of each barrel individually, so to create a triangular spread. In theory you should obtain a pattern like the one seen in the picture below (courtesy of navweaps.com (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm)):

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW_Barrosa_pic.jpg

- equip a corvette with a couple of modified K-guns fitted on her front deck and pointing right forward, lauch the game and cross your fingers :D

I would do the above tweaks myself, but atm I have not SHIII installed, only SHIV and V, but If you upload somewhere the stock K-gun files I can give it a go, or I could use SHIV files as template: the shouldn't be too dissimilar from SHIII ones. :hmm2:


Unfortunately, I don't have a skype account.

Ok, I will do some free space in my PM box :up:


I have also found a video of the thrower in your pictures:

...

And a few more shots:

Thank you very much, they help a lot :yep::up:

All the best, gap off :salute:

P.S: launcher's meshes are nearly finished:

https://i.imgur.com/06sv9E3.png

[sublynx]

A horrible picture :) Looking forward to see that in the game - I guess...

[gap]

A horrible picture :) Looking forward to see that in the game - I guess...

Yep, scarying. According to navweaps, the picture portrays HMS Barrosa (Battle-class fleet destroyer) "steaming over triangular pattern formed by her Squid projectiles. [... The] pattern formed a triangle about 40 yards (37 m) on a side at a distance of 275 yards (250 m) ahead of the ship".

If you look closely at the pictures of the squid launcher posted in the past days, it is pretty obvious that the top and the bottom barrels were aligned with the centerline of the mortar but they had different bore lengths, which meant their projectiles had slightly different muzzle velocities and followed different ballistic trajectories, the topmost projectile travelling more before hitting the water surface. The middle barrel, besides having an intermediate bore length, was on turn askew by ca. 5-10 deg , i.e. it pointed slightly abeam rather than straight in front of the ship, thus creating the triangular pattern.

Also note that the mortar could be trained by 30 deg on either side, though I doubt we will be able to simulate it in game...

[LGN1]

Hi gap,

the model looks great :up:

I think the problem with the K-gun is that it's always fired together with the first DCs when the escort is above your (estimated) position. It's only triggered together with the DCs.

If you finish the model, could you please also make a model with the middle tube pointing to the other direction like in this picture:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Squid_anti-submarine_mortar#/media/File:HMS_Loch_Fada_Squid_launchers_1944_IWM_A_2615 3.jpg

I would like to use it for the double squid :D


Regards, LGN1

[Fahnenbohn]

According to navweaps, the picture portrays HMS Barrosa (Battle-class fleet destroyer) "steaming over triangular pattern formed by her Squid projectiles. [... The] pattern formed a triangle about 40 yards (37 m) on a side at a distance of 275 yards (250 m) ahead of the ship".

Where is the squid launcher on the destroyer ? I don't see it ...

[GT182]

If you guys need to send info back and forth to each other to help in the making of mods, why not sign up for Drop Box. It's free and the more people you get to join up with you the more storage space you will get. And best of all it's FREE. I've had it for at least 4 years and it's the best way to send large amounts of data to someone or receive data. Tho the larger the data packet the longer the time to send it. You just put it in a folder you share with someone and let them know when it's uploaded . Then they just cut and paste it to where they want to save it. It's that easy.

I've sent well over 2GBs with no problems, where with my email account I can only send 10MBs. So now what do you think is better? ;)

Free Dropbox...... http://downloadape.org/dropbox/win?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=US+-+DropBox%28Quality%29&utm_term=download+free+dropbox&utm_content=download+free+dropbox

[gap]

Hi gap,

the model looks great :up:

Hi LGN1, thank you :)

I think the problem with the K-gun is that it's always fired together with the first DCs when the escort is above your (estimated) position. It's only triggered together with the DCs.

Yes, this is likely. Doesn't increasing K-gun's range settings help, at least a bit?

If you finish the model, could you please also make a model with the middle tube pointing to the other direction like in this picture:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Squid_anti-submarine_mortar#/media/File:HMS_Loch_Fada_Squid_launchers_1944_IWM_A_2615 3.jpg

I would like to use it for the double squid :D

Yep, I had this in mind already. Creating port and starboard versions of the squid mortar will be as easy as flipping a few polygons.

During the last few days I took a break, but at this point and with the pictures you have recently posted, finishing the model wont take too long. :up:

One question: does SHIII support ambient occlusion and normal maps for ship equipments and ammonition?

Where is the squid launcher on the destroyer ? I don't see it ...

Navweaps says "Double Squid mortars can be seen at the end of the after deckhouse". Difficult actually seeing them in such a low res picture, but I have found a drawing showing armament's arrangement of the modified Battle-class destroyers, and it got what could be one or a pair of squid lauchers near the stern:

https://i.imgur.com/zmtdTfp.png

As a matter of fact, It is stated on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_(weapon)) that "On some vessels, the Squid installations were at the stern – the bombs were fired over the length of the ship and dropping into the sea slightly ahead of it". This description seems to apply to the mentioned class of destroyers. On the other hand, I doubt HMS Barrosa being equipped with a couple of mortars. Her Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Barrosa_(D68)) reports the destroyer having only one Squid laucher, just like the remaining ships of her class, and the navweaps picture I posted a few days ago clearly show the pattern created by a single mortar, not two. :yep:

If you guys need to send info back and forth to each other to help in the making of mods, why not sign up for Drop Box.

Thank you Gary, I have a dropbox account already, but I didn't know it could be used for private messaging :)

[gap]

Despite of the fact that this is OFF-TOPIC.
No, most of us use and have been using Mediafire for ages.
For ages? Yes for ages.
Other services have come and gone (!) and some of us even suffered big time from the crap that happened to Filefront/Gamefront.

Ditto.

With the exception of subsim itself (which I only use for uploading REL-status stuff), mediafire has proved the most reliable/fast file sharing service so far. Google drive is also good when it comes to sharing documents and spreadsheet-based data. I appreciate especially the possibility of making documents open for editing by other users. I have a dropbox account especially because it is connected to My hotmail/Microsoft Windows account, but I didn't get used to it yet.

Whoops!
I coincidently came across this post of yours.

Why dont you simply keep your inbox tidy?

Btw: You SAID you were sorry, but you did not do a step forward as this error shows:

I need to delete 60+ PM's. Every time I make up my mind and try to make some free space, I start reading old messages and never finish doing what I was originally supposed to :o:D


And how did you happen to see that I tried to get into touch with you?
Just curious.

I got a warn on my mail box :03:


An no, I do no longer use Skype, Facebook, Whatsapp and all these data-collectors.

Okay, I will send you a PM when I manage cleaning up my subsim mail box. By the way: can you tell me what was the topic of your PM? Can we start discussing it in public? :)

[the_frog]

Hello gap,

if I am right, one of your questions remained unanswered.

I think, SH3 supports ambient occlusion OR normal/bump maps. There are some models with either ambient occlusion or normal channels but I am not aware of any with both ambient occlusion AND nomal maps. Some have ambinet occlusion and bump maps.

My suggestion, do only an ambient occlusion map. It works reasonably well.

Cheers

[gap]

Hello gap,

if I am right, one of your questions remained unanswered.

I think, SH3 supports ambient occlusion OR normal/bump maps. There are some models with either ambient occlusion or normal channels but I am not aware of any with both ambient occlusion AND nomal maps. Some have ambinet occlusion and bump maps.

My suggestion, do only an ambient occlusion map. It works reasonably well.

Cheers

Thank you very much for sheding some light on the topic, the_frog. All the models I worked on so far were for SH5, where the only limit is the extended data allowed by the granny file used as template for importing the new models.

As far as a GR2 file is in the correct format for accepting AO and/or normal maps, and a material with those maps is binded to a mesh subset, SH5's GFX engine will use them both automatically with no need of any extra controllers. Anyway I think there is a workaround to this SHIII limitation: I can create a not overlapping UV map for the diffuse channel, bake an AO map on it, and blend diffuse and ambient occlusion textures in one file; this way I will still be able to assign a normal map. I already used this method for SH5, mostly for small objects, when I didn't want to set secondary UV coordinates for the AO map, or when the GR2 file I was working on didn't support them. The only downside to this method, is that the diffuse texture needs to be bigger than usual, or the details painted on it will look blurry. :)

Talki

[gap]

At last!

I finished modelling the squid laucher. Now it is time to unwrap it. Creating a good UV map can be a boring task, but it shouldn't take as long as the modelling part. :)

https://i.imgur.com/nleZO00.png

[tomfon]

Wow!:o

Great work, gap!!!!:sunny:

[Fahnenbohn]

This is just perfect mate. :yeah: Next part is the animation for the projectiles...

[Anvar1061]

SSS
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gif

[SquareSteelBar]

The World According to Gap :yeah:

[Aktungbby]

The World According to Gap :yeah:

The "squid pro quo" in this case!

[makman94]

At last!

I finished modelling the squid laucher. Now it is time to unwrap it. Creating a good UV map can be a boring task, but it shouldn't take as long as the modelling part. :)



thats ,absolutelly, wonderfull work here :yeah:

thank you Gap :up:

[LGN1]

Hi gap,

absolutely great work :yeah:

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished launcher!

Best, LGN1

[LGN1]

Where is the squid launcher on the destroyer ? I don't see it ...

I think it's the white object at the stern (starbord side). It looks to me like a single, three barrel, tilted squid for re-loading.

Best, LGN1

[gap]

Wow!:o

Great work, gap!!!!:sunny:

This is just perfect mate. :yeah:

SSS
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Thumbs_Up-1.gif

thats ,absolutelly, wonderfull work here :yeah:

thank you Gap :up:

Hi gap,

absolutely great work :yeah:

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished launcher!

Best, LGN1

Thank you guys, I appreciate your support. It motivates me to keep on with this little project :)

I am already at a good point of the UV-mapping work. Finishing it will take a bit longer that it usually does though, because I need a non-overlapping UV channel if I want to use it both as diffuse and ambient occlusion map (for the reason I explained a few days ago). Arranging all the details of the model and making them to fit the UV-space takes time.

Next part is the animation for the projectiles...

Well, I think SH's DC projectiles are animated automatically, based on where barrel nodes are placed on the thrower model, and on their rotation values. These on turn will depend on which kind of controller LGN1 will decide to use and, in last instance, on which combination will show more effective in game. As anticipated by LGN1 himself, some compromises will be required because the Squid mortar worked as a thriple K-gun under some respects, and as Hedgehog launcher under other respects, but we don't have a controller specific for it in game. :yep:

The World According to Gap :yeah:

You are correct: this is just my interpretation of the real thing, as I had to judge many details and proportions by eye, based on the few, small pictures I had available. It took longer observing and comparing those photographs, than actually shaping the model. If not identical to the real squid launcher, I hope the model, once finished, will get close enough to it.

The "squid pro quo" in this case!

LOL Aktungbby
:rotfl2:

I think it's the white object at the stern (starbord side). It looks to me like a single, three barrel, tilted squid for re-loading.

Best, LGN1

Yep, you are correct. Navweaps' caption is wrong in stating that that destroyer was fitted with two squids. It was just one on the stern and slightly to starboard :up:

[gap]

Hi guys,
the new squid launcher is 99% ready :woot:

Since my last report, the following features were added to the model:
- UV coordinates for texture mapping;
- diffuse map;
- ambient occlusion map (overlayed on the diffuse).

https://i.imgur.com/1nTkYXg.png

https://i.imgur.com/cFaIMxT.png

Please note that the above previews were rendered using high resolution textures (6144x6144). Before release, I will resize them to a resolution more acceptable to our GPUs. For similar reasons, we might decide to reduce model's polygon count (current: 11,311 polygons, 17,356 edges, 6,411 vertices).

Besides optimizing model and maps for game usage and dat file editing, there is still a couple of maps I want to add:
- normal map (does anyone know if SHIII normal maps are greenish as SHIV ones?)
- specular map.

Stay tuned for updates :salute:

[LGN1]

Great work, gap :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :up:

I'm looking forward to combining your model with my work!

Best, LGN1

[Fahnenbohn]

No news here ?

[gap]

No news here ?

Sorry for the delay Fahnenbohn, I have just sent a PM with attached files to LGN1 :salute:

[LGN1]

Great news, gap!

I have just sent you a pm!

Cheers, LGN1

[gap]

Great news, gap!

I have just sent you a pm!

Cheers, LGN1

Thank you LGN1, I have read your pm. By the way, I took the liberty to advertise this project on the subsim FB channel: :03:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/25990473292/10154028947663293/?notif_t=like

[Fahnenbohn]

Did you manage to create the animations of the 3 charges thrown in the airs ?

[gap]

Did you manage to create the animations of the 3 charges thrown in the airs ?

Charge animation will depend on how LGN1 will decide to set the squid launcher. If he will manage using the K-gun ccontrolle instead of the hedgehog one, there are good chances that the squid launcher can throw the right number of charges, and at the correct angles. In my model each of the three barrels has an elevation of 45 deg; the top and the bottom barrel are pointing right ahead, whereas the middle one has a rotation of ca. 6.5 deg on the vertical axis. Model bones should be set accordingly. The problem with k-guns is that they cant be used as forward-throwing weapons in game. If they are set like this, the AI can still fire them, but it wont hit amything. On the contrary, if the hedgehog controller is used, we lack control on the number of charges thrown, and we cannot set which trajectory each individual charge will follow :hmm2:

[Fahnenbohn]

Charge animation will depend on how LGN1 will decide to set the squid launcher. If he will manage using the K-gun ccontrolle instead of the hedgehog one, there are good chances that the squid launcher can throw the right number of charges, and at the correct angles. In my model each of the three barrels has an elevation of 45 deg; the top and the bottom barrel are pointing right ahead, whereas the middle one has a rotation of ca. 6.5 deg on the vertical axis. Model bones should be set accordingly. The problem with k-guns is that they cant be used as forward-throwing weapons in game. If they are set like this, the AI can still fire them, but it wont hit amything. On the contrary, if the hedgehog controller is used, we lack control on the number of charges thrown, and we cannot set which trajectory each individual charge will follow :hmm2:

Yes, I understand. It's a big problem. In SH3, are the depth charges fired when the destroyer is above the submarine, or when the DC launcher is above it ? :hmm2:

[tomfon]

I guess this is hard to tell since it depends on the destroyer's ability to determine the submarine's position correctly. It would be hard to know whether the destroyer has an accurate fix on the submarine.

:hmmm:

Maybe it doesn't depend on the relative position of the two vessels, at all. Could it be that the destroyer drops its depth charges a few seconds after it loses contact with the submarine?:hmm2:

[gap]

Yes, I understand. It's a big problem. In SH3, are the depth charges fired when the destroyer is above the submarine, or when the DC launcher is above it ? :hmm2:

I see what you are getting at. This is an intetesting idea: if the game took thrower's and submarine's relative positions as reference for firing the DCs, we could move squid launcher's hardpoints (on the escort models) forward, and accordingly move throwers' nodes/meshes backwards. This way we could trick the game into using a k-gun as an hedgehog. Nonetheless, as noted by tomfon, it is possible that dc racks/k-gun's position on the ship are not considered at all. This can be discovered only by testing.

[Fahnenbohn]

I see what you are getting at. This is an intetesting idea: if the game took thrower's and submarine's relative positions as reference for firing the DCs, we could move squid launcher's hardpoints (on the escort models) forward, and accordingly move throwers' nodes/meshes backwards. This way we could trick the game into using a k-gun as an hedgehog. Nonetheless, as noted by tomfon, it is possible that dc racks/k-gun's position on the ship are not considered at all. This can be discovered only by testing.

That's exactly what I mean.

[gap]

That's exactly what I mean.

:up:

Right now I am too busy to test anything, but I believe LGN1 is reading our notes. I know he is busy with real life too, but I hope he will carry on some new experiments when he gets time :)

[LGN1]

Hi guys,

sorry for the long delay in answering. As gap has pointed out I currently have a lot to do in RL.

To avoid any great expectations: I have not been able to get a working squid launcher based on the K-gun and I have also not been able to reduce the number of hedgehog projectiles :-? There are also no projectiles in the air and no loading animations :shifty:

However, gap's thrower looks great (and scary :stare:) in-game and I could create the famous triangle pattern.

I have done several tests to check what triggers the DCs. I think it's just the position of the ship (and the speed of the u-boat). The position of the throwers with respect to the ship seems not to be taken into account. I have observed the same for the hedgehog. My testings also showed that the sinking speed of the DCs and the firing range of the hedgehog are not properly taken into account (this might be a problem for mods which significantly change the sinking speed of the DCs).

To summarize, the mod is currently still far from perfect, however, from a game-play perspective it does its job. gap's thrower looks great, but the particle effects could be improved (I'm not good at doing these effects). Maybe some other modders will join and improve the mod in the future...

Regards, LGN1

[mikey117us]

Has anyone tested the squid launcher as a fixed multi barrel artillery piece? With 3 low velocity indirect fire projectiles? The Virtual Torpedo From Fido mod, and AI Subs are set up this way.

[Fahnenbohn]

Has anyone tested the squid launcher as a fixed multi barrel artillery piece? With 3 low velocity indirect fire projectiles? The Virtual Torpedo From Fido mod, and AI Subs are set up this way.

Yeah, why not ! :hmm2: But you have to add 3 different guns, with 3 different ranges, so the squid will fire 3 times, and all projectiles are going to hit the submarine... And how to simulate the DC falling underwater ?

[gap]

Has anyone tested the squid launcher as a fixed multi barrel artillery piece? With 3 low velocity indirect fire projectiles? The Virtual Torpedo From Fido mod, and AI Subs are set up this way.

Yeah, why not ! :hmm2: But you have to add 3 different guns, with 3 different ranges, so the squid will fire 3 times, and all projectiles are going to hit the submarine... And how to simulate the DC falling underwater ?

Yep, I was thinking pretty much the same but to the best of my knowledge, AI unitd would only fire their squid-guns against surfaced targets or, at most, agaist submarines which are at periscope depth. Such a tactic fits the purposes of virtual torpedoes, but not the ones of a depth charge. :-?

[Fahnenbohn]

So, there are no solutions ... ?

[gap]

Let's wait for LGN1: he might come with a better idea...

[LGN1]

Hi,

I don't know how a gun should help. As gap has pointed out it would not fire on a submerged u-boat.

I think from a game-play point-of-view the hedgehog solution works fine. So for people playing without external view the current solution is ok.

IMHO, a 'real' squid would require editing the .exe because one would also have to code the historical 'squid attack' procedure which was quite different from DC attacks.

Regards, LGN1

[mikey117us]

Quick video demonstration of a Squid attack. Although 14 years later, Triple the size, and more space Allocated for tubes, the method and technology for an indirect fire attack on a submerged target were the same. Notice the Echoplot Printer giving the aspect range and course and when the Squid Batteries in this case fire, they "Walk In" a salvo. I would guess From Least to Greatest Distance Traveled, and Port or Starboard Turn. If Hedghog node works then Great! Coding AI units to deploy this Attack would be deadly! http://youtu.be/maFdUJ5un74

[Fahnenbohn]

Any news here ? http://www.forumsig.org/images/smilies/koi.png

[gap]

Hi Fahnenbohn.

Sorry for my long silence but I, like LGN1, have been pretty busy with real life during the last weeks, and to make things worse, the web connection in the country where I am currently living is a real PITA.

Anyway, today I have sent a PM to LGN1, and if everything goes well, there might be some fresh news relative to our project during the next weeks. I am sorry to be so vague, but I cant tell you more at this time. :)

[Fahnenbohn]

:up:

[LGN1]

Hi guys,

sorry for the late reply. I have finished the readme and hope to release a version for testing soon.

Best, LGN1

@gap: I have not received any pm :06:

[gap]

@LGM1

Sorry mate. I wrote the PM from my smartphone, and I probably pushed the wrong button :doh:

I sent you another PM. I hope you received it this time :)

[Aktungbby]

Yours must b the only smart phone in 'Grate' Zimbabwe! :O:

[LGN1]

@LGM1

Sorry mate. I wrote the PM from my smartphone, and I probably pushed the wrong button :doh:

I sent you another PM. I hope you received it this time :)

Read and replied :salute:

[LGN1]

Hi,

I have uploaded a new version. Here are some pictures:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/flower_single_squid_pattern1_5X9.jpg

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/river_double_squid_uZs.jpg

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/flower_single_squid_3XN.jpg

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads/river_double_squid_pattern_0cd.jpg

[ivanov.ruslan]

Nice,realy nice!We will now have more early to scroll horizontally rudders :cool:

[Fahnenbohn]

Hhhhh !!! :o The fatal weapon is ready ?

I think the charges are not launched very far compared to the original squid ... but maybe this is not possible to change ... ?

[gap]

@ LGN1

Awesome screenies mate! :yeah:
I have just a remark: seeing how the middle mortar of each squid launcher on either ship side is pointing to the mid-line, whereas the other two mortars are pointing straight ahead, if possible, I think the launch pattern should be reversed compared to the one seen in the last screen shot.

P.S: I have read your reply to my PM. I suggest you yo send my files together with your last working version of the launcher, for any possible improvement or suggestion on it. I, like you and Jeff, dont care for copyright as long as we can cooperate for bringing new amazing features in our favorite games :)

@ Aktungbby

I am sorry to say that digital technology has already conquered the African market. In Zanzibar, where I currently work, there is plenty of smartphones and any other kind of electronic thingies. My chinese smartphone is probably one of the least expensive pieces of technological junk to be found on the island :O: :D

[Aktungbby]

Yours must b the only smart phone in 'Grate' Zimbabwe! :O:

[QUOTE=gap;2400335@ Aktungbby

I am sorry to say that digital technology has already conquered the African market. In Zanzibar, where I currently work, there is plenty of smartphones and any other kind of electronic thingies. My chinese smartphone is probably one of the least expensive pieces of technological junk to be found on the island :O: :D[/QUOTE] Well at least I got the 'Z' part right! and I play SHII & V in my raffia-fiber Mungangi mancave outfit https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/PendeMunganji.jpg/150px-PendeMunganji.jpg ... good padding in a depth-charge attack or another Napa Quake (still got holes in the sheetrock from the last one!) while nursing a glass of Ogogoro when I'm out of chardonnay!

[mikey117us]

Don't be Put off by Mild Screen Shots!!! I Tested the U-505 Single Mission. After the very first Salvos Damage I sank to 300 meters before getting the Flooding under Control. ( Rose to a Depth of 20 meters to use few quick Hydrophone Solution TV Torpedo Shots ) Sunk by Squid!!!

[Jimbuna]

Excellent work :sunny:

[Tycho]

More options for enemy to killing me, very good. :rock:

[LGN1]

Hi,

thanks all for your feed-back. I hope you will also like it in your next campaign in '45 :D

@Fahnenbohn: You are correct. The range is shorter than the historical max. range. It could be changed a bit, but then one would need to adjust the sink rate...

I don't know whether the squid was always fired at max. range :hmmm: If you think of the ships with the squid launcher installed at the stern, it should be possible to have the DC pattern closer to the ship :06:

@gap: Unfortunately, the pattern is defined with respect to the 'world's coordinates' and not the ship's movement, i.e., if the ship heads north the pattern is correct. If it heads south it's reversed,... I didn't find a way to have it aligned to the ship's motion :oops:

Best, LGN1

PS: Any more experiences with the DC's damage? Is it too deadly?

[Fahnenbohn]

PS: Any more experiences with the DC's damage? Is it too deadly?

I will test it as soon as possible ! I let you know. I have a good tool to test this kind of weapon, but it's secret ... :D

[gap]

Today I was re-thinking about this mod and the way to bypass the limitations of the hedgehog controller that we need to use if we want the AI to fire the new weapon correctly.

What if add three dummy nodes to the launcher model (one for each of the three muzzles, each aligned with the main axis of its respective barrel) and we attach an individual wpn_Hedgehog controller to each of them? We could then equip the controllers with dummy and invisible hedgehog projectiles, and set the weapon to use a modified fire_effect particle generator which will spawn a motion-aligned squid projectile (as done for the AI torpedos). Given the different alignment of the three nodes, and by setting appropriately the starting velocity of each charge (this would require the use of three slightly different particle effects, one for each barrel/projectile), I think we could obtain a triangular lauch pattern ca. 250 m in front of the ship, similar to the one created by the real squids. By further fine-tuning DC's speed and the max_range and diameter properties of each contoller (but also the the fall_speed, detonate_depth and depth_precison of the dummy hedgehog and of the sqid projectiles are playing a role), we should get the weapon to score some hits.

Ideally the three controllers composing a "single squid unit" should fire at the same moment, and the squids should hit the water more or less in the same point and at the same time than their dummy counterparts. For this reason it could be handy setting the dummy hedgehogs as visible before release.

What do you think? Might it work? :hmm2:

[LGN1]

Hi gap,

it's great that you are still thinking about the mod!

I think your idea could work, however, you would still get 24 DCs per barrel.

The hedgehog controller always fires 24 times (i.e., 24 muzzle flashes, 24 sounds,...). At least I could never find a way to reduce this number and therefore, I could never have less than 24 objects spawned. I tried with random spawn rates,... but never succeeded :wah:

Best, LGN1

[gap]

Hi LGN1,
that's unfortunate :nope:

Despite the hedgehog thrower laucnhing 24 charges, I was hoping that each lauch triggered only one flash. If 24 flashes are played every time, indeed there is no way that my idea can work, as we would end with 3 x 24 charges. :-?

The wpn_cannon controller let us to set how many muzzles/shells are fired by a given gun, and event their 3D position relative to the model, but this over-simplified hedgehog controller gives us little chances of mimicking the squid laucher behaviour.

Being the stubborn guy that I am, I have one more question though. When you experimented with the squid laucher set as a K-gun, did the AI shoot at submerged targets which were on front of the depth-charging vessel (but just too short/too long), or it kept firing on targets which were on her side? If the first option was true, there would still be hopes that we can set the squid mortar to fire three visible shells with some degree of succes, by using the K-gun controller with particle-generated charges or a combinetion of the K-gun and of the hedgehog controllers. :hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Do an experiment.

Set a node way out front of the ship and assign the DC rack to it.
:hmmm:

If you look at how a node is set for a DC rack? It's way forward of the actual rack in Game.
Is this a built in delay we can take advantage of?

[LGN1]

Hi gap,

I was also hoping that there is only a single firing 'animation' :cry:

IIRC, the K-gun was always fired at the same moment as the other K-guns on the escort; no matter where it was positioned.

When testing the hedgehog parameters for the squid I also found out that the position of the launcher mattered: Depending on the distance of the launcher from the ship's center the projectiles were ahead or behind the target. My guess is that the game only takes the ship's position into account when firing/dropping DCs (and the u-boat's speed, but not the hedgehog firing range and the sinking speed).

Best, LGN1

[Jeff-Groves]

Have you tried the DC rack thing I suggested?
Don't think of it as the squid just try what I'm saying!
Let me know what the DC rack does if you place it 20 meters ahead of a ship!
I've worked 10 to 12 hours a day for 3 weeks straight now.
NO days off!
I'm helping with other Mods in my off time.
If you can't do this simple test? I guess I'll go no further with this.

[Anvar1061]

Have you tried the DC rack thing I suggested?
Don't think of it as the squid just try what I'm saying!
Let me know what the DC rack does if you place it 20 meters ahead of a ship!
I've worked 10 to 12 hours a day for 3 weeks straight now.
NO days off!
I'm helping with other Mods in my off time.
If you can't do this simple test? I guess I'll go no further with this.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Crying.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Crying.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Crying.gif

[gap]

Hi Jeff,
I think LGN1 already answered that, during his tests, all the dc throwers fired their charges exactly at the same moment, no matter if they were placed in different positions within the ship model. This seem to entail that the K-gun controller is triggered based on ship's and U-boat relative positios, disregarding any other factor.
Nonetheless, I agree with you that at any rate a set of tests with some extreme figures could be instructve. If I got you corretly we should move thrower's linking nodes on a ship model forward by some hundred meters, and move the 3D meshes of the thrower back by the same quantity. This way thrower's physical position relative to the ship wouldn't change, but we would trick the AI into thinking that the weapon is much forward than it actually is. Is that correct?
I dont know if LGN1 has time for one last test. If not, I can try myself. I have no SHIII installed on my machine, but I can try on SH5. The controllers are the same, and I dont think their handling differs too much in the two games... :hmm2:

[Jeff-Groves]

Sorry about my little fit.
I had some very bad days and things got to me.
I'll be able to test myself in the next day or so.
I'm interested in WHY the DC racks node is placed so far forwards on a stock ship and the model so far back.
Now, IF that's to allow for the animations stuff?
We can take advantage of that.
Yes it would mean doing a bunch of animations and other stuff but it's pretty clear other options are out the window.
Your 3D model is to nice to just give up the whole idea!

[gap]

No problem mate,

let us know if you find anything interesting. If you or LGN1 dont get time for testing further on the DC topic, be sure I will. I don't know when, but I will, and I will start from the tweaks you have suggested :up:

[Jeff-Groves]

Got an issue with my install.
Gonna have to wipe it and install a fresh version.
Got it on the back up external 1 TB drive.

Now.
IF the DC rack is located like it is to allow for the rack animations?
Then We can adjust for that.
New animations and effects would do exactly what is needed.
It all depends on how that DC works if we place it say 50 meters in front of the ship.
I tried last night but my install is corrupted and I CTD.
Go figure.
Not that I mess with my installs.
LOL

[VikingGrandad]

This mod looks utterly deadly!

[gap]

...It all depends on how that DC works if we place it say 50 meters in front of the ship...

There are several unknown factors which might play a role.

If eqp node's position is taken into account by AI when firing the DC attached to it, then your idea should work.

If it doesn't, there still are chances that your trick does the job.

If, for instance ship center matters for DC fire control (as suggested by LGN1), we should ask ourselves how the AI calculates this center. Is it relative to ship meshes, or even dummy node/bones (such as the ones used for equipments) would matter, if they are placed outside the 3D model? If the latter was true, moving a node (any node) 50 m in front of the bow, would shift the ship center by 25 meter forward, thus moving the "aim" of DC fthrowers forward by the same amount.

There would be some drawbacks though, as all the DC throwers fitted on that ship would become forward throwing weapons. Not to mention collision avoidance and ship physics that might also go nuts.

...anyway I realize that there are too many "if" in my reasoning. Let's see what your tests have to tell us :03:

[Alex]

I like you guy's creativity. Can't wait to see what you'll come up with. :ping:

:cool:

[Jeff-Groves]

The animations part does work in some ways.
I know that from working on a special DC rack way back.
And I still have those files after all these years!

IF I recall right? moving a DC rack to the front of a ship does not effect the rear DC racks.

Reason I remember that is I was working on side mounted DC racks.

[the_frog]

I do not know if that may help but I did some side-rolling single DC racks for Alex's Harbour Defense Motor Launch (HDML) and an additional two-DC variant for the Bathursts. They work well as long as the parent ship does pass over the target submarine. The HDML is rather reluctant to do so; the Bathursts do easily.

The reason?

The Bathurst has a mass/displacement larger than 750 t (as defined in *.sim file). At a mass of less than 750 t the attacking vessel will not pass over the sub, probably because of some parameter in the collision avoidance routine or whatsoever.

My best guess to make the Squid work would be to use the K-gun controller (use 3 for one Squid, one for each of the Squid's barrels) and make the controller assume that the firing ship is passing over the sub 250 m ahead.
Could we achieve that by extentding the ship's binding box? Or is the K-gun firing linked to the position of the hydrophone/ASDIC node?

I do not have SH3 on the notebook I use while travelling, otherwise I would start tests.

:hmmm:

[LGN1]

Hi all,

I have redone the test with the K-gun moved 60m ahead of the Flower escort. I couldn't observe any impact of its new position on its firing time :-?

My feeling is that the game only takes the escort's position with respect to the u-boat for the DCs into account. The DC pattern (racks, throwers,...) always fire when the escort is exactly above the assumed u-boat position. That's when the attack sequence starts.

In contrast, for the hedgehog it seems to take also the u-boat's speed into account. Therefore, I think the hedgehog is a much better starting point for the squid. If one could reduce the hardcoded number of projectiles down to three...

Best, LGN1

Sorry about my little fit.


No harm done, Jeff.

[Jeff-Groves]

Thanks Mate.
I'll get my SH3 install replaced so it runs again.
I have no clue why it crashes.
Not like I mess with stuff all the time.
:har:

[gap]

My best guess to make the Squid work would be to use the K-gun controller (use 3 for one Squid, one for each of the Squid's barrels)

Just one controller should be enough. IIRC the K-gun controller gets the number and position/orientation of the depth charges it fires from the barrel nodes of the model it is placed on...

...and make the controller assume that the firing ship is passing over the sub 250 m ahead.
Could we achieve that by extentding the ship's binding box?

There is a number of ways this could be possibly achieved, but we should then face the problems I mentioned in previous post :doh:


...Or is the K-gun firing linked to the position of the hydrophone/ASDIC node?

This is actually an interesting idea that, AFAIK, has not been tested so far. But again, if it worked, the traditional DC rails/throwers also fitted on Castle-class corvettes and Loch-class frigates, would turn useless.


My feeling is that the game only takes the escort's position with respect to the u-boat for the DCs into account. The DC pattern (racks, throwers,...) always fire when the escort is exactly above the assumed u-boat position. That's when the attack sequence starts.

In contrast, for the hedgehog it seems to take also the u-boat's speed into account. Therefore, I think the hedgehog is a much better starting point for the squid. If one could reduce the hardcoded number of projectiles down to three...

I suppose that making the number of hedgehogs customizable would have been an easy feature to implement by devs, if only they didn't decide to over-simplify that controller :wah: