Anyone still have IRAI v0.0.30 to v0.0.37 ? [Archive]

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vdr1981

07-10-15, 08:27 AM

Please, upload them here if you still have those older IRAI versions somewhere on your HDD...:subsim:

kevinsue

07-10-15, 06:54 PM

Had a look and IRAI_0_0_37_ByTheDarkWraith was the earliest I could find.:down:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/f32r25acv4184c2/IRAI_0_0_37_ByTheDarkWraith.zip

Echolot

07-11-15, 01:11 AM

IRAI 0.0.37 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/c8i9k86ajc4ph13/IRAI_0_0_37_TheDarkWraith.7z)

:salute:

vdr1981

07-11-15, 08:43 AM

My bad guys...:doh:
We already have v0.0.37...Anything older?

gap

07-11-15, 09:05 AM

My bad guys...:doh:
We already have v0.0.37...Anything older?

If not all, I should have most of the versions of IRAI released from as far back as January 2010. Let me check my old HDs :salute:

gap

07-11-15, 09:37 AM

Here it is:

IRAI 0.0.29 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/9fv1256a6k2dgc9/IRAI_0_0_29_TheDarkWraith.7z)

IRAI 0.0.30 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/60ev7cdi57ru2f7/IRAI_0_0_30_TheDarkWraith.rar)

Claudia

07-11-15, 11:37 AM

Hey Gap, thank you very much!

v30 could be helpful. Testing now.

vdr1981

07-11-15, 12:01 PM

Claudia

07-11-15, 01:28 PM

Ok, IRAI v0.0.30 works flawlessly. Tested three times, trying to cause the failure for a long time, but no CTD at all.

IRAI versions 31, 33, 34, 35 and 36 still needed. The issue is for sure in one of them. I think Trevally might have some of these :salute:

gap

07-11-15, 03:35 PM

Hey Gap, thank you very much!

v30 could be helpful. Testing now.

Gap!:up:

Ok, IRAI v0.0.30 works flawlessly. Tested three times, trying to cause the failure for a long time, but no CTD at all.

IRAI versions 31, 33, 34, 35 and 36 still needed. The issue is for sure in one of them. I think Trevally might have some of these :salute:

Thank you too guys. You are doing a great job in narrowing down the problem. If anything else fails, we could at least put TDW in the right direction when hopefully he will be back.
I will keep digging in my old hard drives for other past versions among the ones listed by you, Claudia. :up:

redline202

07-13-15, 07:49 AM

Thank you too guys. You are doing a great job in narrowing down the problem. If anything else fails, we could at least put TDW in the right direction when hopefully he will be back.
I will keep digging in my old hard drives for other past versions among the ones listed by you, Claudia. :up:

######################### Ship consts ##########################
SHIP_PATROL_RATE = 0.008333; # (1.f / (20.f * 60.f))

STATE_CRUISE = 0; #Normal navigation
STATE_ALERT = 1; #Alert State
STATE_DMG_CONTROL = 2; #damage control
STATE_IN_PORT = 3; #docked
STATE_FAKE_SURRENDER = 4; #fakesurrender
STATE_SURRENDER = 5; #surrender
STATE_ABANDON = 6; #abandonship

I have found these lines in IRAI Scripts\AI\init.aix
"STATE_IN_PORT = 3; #docked" Could this maybe be the problem with
stuck ships in ports?, i was trying simply to delete this line but i didn't have time
to test it in the campaign.

gap

07-13-15, 09:52 AM

######################### Ship consts ##########################
SHIP_PATROL_RATE = 0.008333; # (1.f / (20.f * 60.f))

STATE_CRUISE = 0; #Normal navigation
STATE_ALERT = 1; #Alert State
STATE_DMG_CONTROL = 2; #damage control
STATE_IN_PORT = 3; #docked
STATE_FAKE_SURRENDER = 4; #fakesurrender
STATE_SURRENDER = 5; #surrender
STATE_ABANDON = 6; #abandonship

I have found these lines in IRAI Scripts\AI\init.aix
"STATE_IN_PORT = 3; #docked" Could this maybe be the problem with
stuck ships in ports?, i was trying simply to delete this line but i didn't have time
to test it in the campaign.

As far as I can understand, those lines are where TDW is declaring ship state variables, used farther in his code to determine ship tactics. If you remove them from the code, AI routines will look for those missing variables, and the game will likely CTD :hmmm:

redline202

07-13-15, 01:06 PM

As far as I can understand, those lines are where TDW is declaring ship state variables, used farther in his code to determine ship tactics. If you remove them from the code, AI routines will look for those missing variables, and the game will likely CTD :hmmm:

I just thought maybe AI will just skip those missing variables because they are in "initiate file" so if you don't initiate function variable the further code will not be processed. In single mission i don't have CTD without that line..but in campaign...it will probably cause CTD.

Empty B

07-15-15, 10:14 AM

I have IRAI 30,33,35,36,37.
Do you need them?

Aktungbby

07-15-15, 10:28 AM

Empty B!:salute:after a three year silent run!

gap

07-15-15, 10:28 AM

I have IRAI 30,33,35,36,37.
Do you need them?

vdr1981 is in his first day of vacation, so I think it is okay if I reply on his behalf. Yes please, post here links to v .33 to .36 :salute:

Empty B

07-21-15, 09:25 AM

Claudia

07-22-15, 12:05 PM

Sorry for the delay.
Here are the links:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6z7g9ll6e71k18a/IRAI_0_0_33_TheDarkWraith.7z

http://www.mediafire.com/download/taidse3hasz319o/IRAI_0_0_35_TheDarkWraith.7z

http://www.mediafire.com/download/0emqsy58agb8265/IRAI_0_0_36_TheDarkWraith.7z

Thank you, much appreciated.

Testing now. First impression:

v33 (and earlier) No CTD
v35 (and later) CTD

The only remaining to complete the test is v34. Then we will know if we can do something to fix the bug. It does not look easy, there are many important changes in versions 34 and 35. But we will try it for sure :haha:

Anyone has IRAI v0.0.34 please? :subsim:

vdr1981

09-02-15, 05:24 PM

Because there is really slim chance that we can understand what is going on in TDW's py files I'm going to do a different approach regarding "Damaged TF/Convoy leader CTD" issue...

I'm going to edit OHII's GroupTypeDefs.cfg in order to get rid of large capital ships as a group leaders. Instead, group leaders anywhere in SH5 world will be hard, fast reacting warships, like destroyers and light cruisers.
According to some TWD's posts, this should also be beneficial to Hunter-killer groups and their tactics in general (large warships will hopefully act like that, not like destroyers anymore).

The file is rather large (almost 50.000 lines :o) but I've already done large part of the work in a past couple of weeks.

If this works, player will have enormously small change to damage group leader and therefore game will not crash and AI will continue to work. Even if player somehow manage to score a hit on convoy leader, she will most likely be instantly killed which is not problem because , in these scenarios, group leadership is transferred to the next unit (small and fast again):yep:

gap

09-03-15, 12:09 PM

vdr1981

09-03-15, 01:47 PM

Sorry: many questions in a row :)
:salute: Gap

How do you switch convoy/hunter group leaders in GroupTypeDefs.cfg?

This is the example of one convoy from mentioned file...Note that convoy leader is always first unit in convoy section (marked in red) and it controls tactics for both escorts and merchants...If leader merchant is damaged all tactics comes to a halt and the game CTD's some time after...If leader dies instantly , convoy leaderships is instantly transferred to 2nd unit in convoy section (marked in green) and so on....

[KX_]
Role=1
Doctrine=0
EscortPosition=1
EscortSpacing=900.000000
ConvoyRowSpacing=900.000000
ConvoyColSpacing=900.000000
Columns=0
IsWolfPack=false

[KX_.EscortUnit 1]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.EscortUnit 2]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.EscortUnit 3]
Type=6
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.EscortUnit 4]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.EscortUnit 5]
Type=4
CountryName=American
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.ConvoyUnit 1]
Type=102
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=9
InternalCargo=1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=3
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.ConvoyUnit 2]
Type=102
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=8
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=6
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[KX_.ConvoyUnit 3]
Type=102
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=8
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=3
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

It is the same for HK groups, the only difference is that in convoy section you'll find only warships there, instead of merchants like in regular convoy.

Aren't some side effects to be expected? I.e. all the escorts starting to chase any attacking enemy, and leaving capital ships totally unescorted, or even whorse capital ships behaving like escorts and exposing themselves to unnecessary risks?
Capital ships will act like that even now most of the time, maybe they are trying to ram submerged contact or something...Only TDW knows...To be honest, IRAI is so complex that sometimes is really hard to distinguish is AI really smart or really stupid...:)

I did recently an extensive search of TDW's posts from last few years regarding convoy leaders issue and I could't find anything to suggest that this shouldn't work . He even said in one post something about a "problem in campaign files which is responsible why is group leader in HK groups spawned in campaign always large capital ship"...

EDIT:
Oh yes, and one more thing...CTD will only occur if leading unit has warship/escorts under her control. If warship is alone or if there's only merchants in the group, CTD wont occur...

gap

09-03-15, 05:12 PM

:salute: Gap

How do you switch convoy/hunter group leaders in GroupTypeDefs.cfg?

This is the example of one convoy from mentioned file...Note that convoy leader is always first unit in convoy section (marked in red) and it controls tactics for both escorts and merchants...If leader merchant is damaged all tactics comes to a halt and the game CTD's some time after...If leader dies instantly , convoy leaderships is instantly transferred to 2nd unit in convoy section (marked in green) and so on....

Thanks Vecko, I see now :up:
What about setting a dummy unit as leader of every convoy in game, with a 100% spawn probability? I mean a custom sea unit with no visible meshes (or meshes so small that they would hardly been seen), no damage/collision model, no engine sound, no armaments, no wake/smoke effects, etc, but equipped with just the basic controllers for making the game to recognize it as a ship. Lacking damage model, it couldn't be destroyed, thus providing a workaround to the infamous convoy leader ctd. The one side effect is that our crew, as well as other AI units, would still "see"/attack/report it, but in the scramble of a convoy attack this would be hardly noticed by the human player. Moreover, we could avoid the dummy unit to be used elsewhere in game, by creating two new "dummy" nations (one for Axis, and one for Allies) to be used in convoys/task forces, and by assigning the custom unit only to the roster of those nations.

How do you see it? :hmm2:

Aren't some side effects to be expected? I.e. all the escorts starting to chase any attacking enemy, and leaving capital ships totally unescorted, or even whorse capital ships behaving like escorts and exposing themselves to unnecessary risks?
Capital ships will act like that even now most of the time, maybe they are trying to ram submerged contact or something...Only TDW knows...To be honest, IRAI is so complex that sometimes is really hard to distinguish is AI really smart or really stupid...:)

:O:

Out of jokes, any warship larger than a destroyer or a sloop shouldn't attack an enemy submarine in any other way than by shooting her cannons against it, if surfaced, or by deploying their planes against it, if they have any... A cruiser, a battleship or a carrier changing her course just for the gamble of ramming a submarine just makes no sense, considering the little chances of success and the high risks involved. Using an analogy with chess, it would be like jeopardizing one of your two almighty but quite cumbersome towers during a game opening (when many pieces are still on the board which can hamper a fast retreat), just for the sake of campturing one of the eight pawns of the opponent :-?

I did recently an extensive search of TDW's posts from last few years regarding convoy leaders issue and I could't find anything to suggest that this shouldn't work . He even said in one post something about a "problem in campaign files which is responsible why is group leader in HK groups spawned in campaign always large capital ship"...

EDIT:
Oh yes, and one more thing...CTD will only occur if leading unit has warship/escorts under her control. If warship is alone or if there's only merchants in the group, CTD wont occur...

This is another matter, and the problem can be addressed by decreasing the spawn probability of capital ships in task forces already set in game, and/or by setting new taskforces with no capital ships in them. :up:

vdr1981

09-03-15, 06:20 PM

Thanks Vecko, I see now :up:
What about setting a dummy unit as leader of every convoy in game, with a 100% spawn probability? I mean a custom sea unit with no visible meshes (or meshes so small that they would hardly been seen), no damage/collision model, no engine sound, no armaments, no wake/smoke effects, etc, but equipped with just the basic controllers for making the game to recognize it as a ship. Lacking damage model, it couldn't be destroyed, thus providing a workaround to the infamous convoy leader ctd. The one side effect is that our crew, as well as other AI units, would still "see"/attack/report it, but in the scramble of a convoy attack this would be hardly noticed by the human player. Moreover, we could avoid the dummy unit to be used elsewhere in game, by creating two new "dummy" nations (one for Axis, and one for Allies) to be used in convoys/task forces, and by assigning the custom unit only to the roster of those nations.

How do you see it? :hmm2:
This sounds quite OK although situation may look little strange when dealing with smaller groups but, what a hell...:hmm2:
Dammit...I'm sure that TDW would be able to fix this issue with just a few entries in his py files... But instead we have to deal with 50.000 lines of code...:D
Anyway, your suggestion should probably work great with large HK and convoy groups...

Out of jokes, any warship larger than a destroyer or a sloop shouldn't attack an enemy submarine in any other way than by shooting her cannons against it, if surfaced, or by deploying their planes against it, if they have any... A cruiser, a battleship or a carrier changing her course just for the gamble of ramming a submarine just makes no sense, considering the little chances of success and the high risks involved.
I couldn't agree more but still, after 41 incarnation of TDW's IRAI , things can look rather strange sometimes...

Just recently, while I was attacking large British task force, a carrier spotted my periscope, turn swiftly and ramed my U-boat while I was watchig through the periscope wondering, what a hell is she doing?!:haha:
Enormously stupid , but terribly effective... :D

gap

09-03-15, 09:08 PM

This sounds quite OK although situation may look little strange when dealing with smaller groups but, what a hell...:hmm2:
Dammit...I'm sure that TDW would be able to fix this issue with just a few entries in his py files... But instead we have to deal with 50.000 lines of code...:D
Anyway, your suggestion should probably work great with large HK and convoy groups...

Okay, I can give it a go. Who knows, maybe we could set the dummy leader as neutral or as "environmental", for avoiding them to be attcked by AI units on either side. I don't even remember if environmental units are reported by our watch officer, and I hope we can set them so to be ignored by the hydro-guy.

Testing in single mission would ease our work. As far as you know, do escort AI routines work the same in missions as they do in campaign? and do the leader ctd bug also happen in single mission? :hmm2:

I couldn't agree more but still, after 41 incarnation of TDW's IRAI , things can look rather strange sometimes...

Just recently, while I was attacking large British task force, a carrier spotted my periscope, turn swiftly and ramed my U-boat while I was watchig through the periscope wondering, what a hell is she doing?!:haha:
Enormously stupid , but terribly effective... :D

That must have been the "surprise factor strategy" that by then the Brits must have been working on :haha:

vdr1981

09-04-15, 06:44 AM

Okay, I can give it a go. Who knows, maybe we could set the dummy leader as neutral or as "environmental", for avoiding them to be attcked by AI units on either side. I don't even remember if environmental units are reported by our watch officer, and I hope we can set them so to be ignored by the hydro-guy.
I don't think so because because Neutral units will ignore completely other coalitions if not attacked directly...Env units are reported both by sonarmen and watchmen as ships...

Testing in single mission would ease our work. As far as you know, do escort AI routines work the same in missions as they do in campaign? and do the leader ctd bug also happen in single mission? :hmm2:
Yes

That must have been the "surprise factor strategy" that by then the Brits must have been working on :haha:

Just tested in a single mission... HK group AI is, let's say, equally "random" regardless of unit in command (large warship or something smaller). It seems that is completely irrelevant ... I don't like large warships tactics scripts but nothing we can do about it...

I'm done with my changes in GroupTypeDefs.cfg file (finally) , if you like I can upload it so you can review it and ask me some questions?

gap

09-04-15, 08:03 AM

I don't think so because because Neutral units will ignore completely other coalitions if not attacked directly...

So what do you think? Should we set them like this, or escorts will act weirdly when defending a convoy led by a neutral or even environmental unit? :hmmm:

Env units are reported both by sonarmen and watchmen as ships...

Okay. I think there are ways to prevent the game from showing an unit in SOAN/RM, even if it is not set as environmental. As for sound signature, IIRC there is a controller dealing with it. If the controller is missing, the unit is totally deaf, even to the AI operator. Lastly, I hope that if we make the dummy unit veeery small, our watch crew will have an hard time spotting it, due to its low profile. We could even try and make its meshes totally invisible, but I am afraid soon or later we would get a divide by zero error, or something like that, and instant ctd...

Yes

That's good news: testing in single mission will spare us a lot of time :up:

Just tested in a single mission... HK group AI is, let's say, equally "random" regardless of unit in command (large warship or something smaller). It seems that is completely irrelevant ... I don't like large warships tactics scripts but nothing we can do about it...

...nothing but hoping our "deus ex machina", TDW, to be back any time soon :D or...

Dammit...I'm sure that TDW would be able to fix this issue with just a few entries in his py files... But instead we have to deal with 50.000 lines of code...:D

Yep, I feel exactly the same... It is obvious that our approaches to the problem are just workarounds. Makes me to wonder if learning python wouldn't be easier. For sure there are plenty of resources about it on the web, but then one should learn how it is applied to SH's AI routines, and what TDW had in mind while he was working on IRAI :hmmm:

I'm done with my changes in GroupTypeDefs.cfg file (finally) , if you like I can upload it so you can review it and ask me some questions?

Sure :up:

Post a link and I will have a look into your files this evening or tomorrow morning :salute:

vdr1981

09-04-15, 10:23 AM

vdr1981

09-04-15, 10:31 AM

Here are the files...

[OHII v2.5 - GroupTypeDefs.cfg_8-9-10] (http://www.mediafire.com/download/0qarfa9u6qbrcp0/OHII+v2.5+-+GroupTypeDefs.cfg_8-9-10.rar)

And this is from small readme file that I've created...

Changes in these files should effectively eliminate almost all chances for Damaged group leader CTD ever to occur without major changes regarding gameplay, convoy/groups in game appearance, number of ships, represented nations ect...

Designated convoy leaders leaders will always be 2-5 merchants/tankers (depending of convoy size) loaded with ammunition or fuel (internal cargo).

HK/TF designated leaders will be hard to hit destroyers and light cruisers.

The file(s) will also act(s) as compatibility patch for external cargo mod,

add until now almost nonexistent internal cargo option (which will match external cargo settings most of the time),

Randomize distance between units in groups from 800-1000m (I'm planing to increase this to 800-1100m, before was always 900)

gap

09-04-15, 01:51 PM

So what do you think? Should we set them like this, or escorts will act weirdly when defending a convoy led by a neutral or even environmental unit?
Definitely weird... The game is just not optimized for more then one coalition inside same group. You can test this in single mission too.

...

Okay. I think there are ways to prevent the game from showing an unit in SOAN/RM, even if it is not set as environmental.
Forget about env units...It's not type of the ship that matters, only coalition...

Okay nevermind, I think I will put this workaround of mine in standby until your own patch is fully tested, and if it works as supposed there is no need for me to bothering on it anymore :03:

Here are the files...

:up:

Designated convoy leaders leaders will always be 2-5 merchants/tankers (depending of convoy size) loaded with ammunition or fuel (internal cargo).

I am trying to follow your reasoning: since convoy leaders now are more than one single merchant, it is unlikely for all of them to be sunk, and even if this happens, due to their cargo, they would sink instantly, thus avoiding a instant ctd. Nonetheless, if we sink all the ships in a small convoy, there is still a little chance of ctd (if, afer sinking for a bad cohincidence all the ships in the leading group, the new leader(s) have not an exlosive cargo aboard. Is that correct?

The file(s) will also act(s) as compatibility patch for external cargo mod,

add until now almost nonexistent internal cargo option (which will match external cargo settings most of the time),

Randomize distance between units in groups from 800-1000m (I'm planing to increase this to 800-1100m, before was always 900)

Good! :up:

vdr1981

09-05-15, 07:48 AM

Okay nevermind, I think I will put this workaround of mine in standby until your own patch is fully tested, and if it works as supposed there is no need for me to bothering on it anymore :03:

Ooo no..You will not escape so easily .:D As you can see , this "solution" will lower thew chances but it will not eliminate them completely.

I am trying to follow your reasoning: since convoy leaders now are more than one single merchant, it is unlikely for all of them to be sunk, and even if this happens, due to their cargo, they would sink instantly, thus avoiding a instant ctd.
Exactly...

Nonetheless, if we sink all the ships in a small convoy, there is still a little chance of ctd (if, afer sinking for a bad cohincidence all the ships in the leading group, the new leader(s) have not an exlosive cargo aboard. Is that correct?
Good! :up:
You are right again...Those small convoys protected by 1-2 destroyers are my biggest concern . Actually , when I first time noticed this bug it was with small group of ships but at that time, I wasn't aware what's going on exactly...

How much time do you actually need to create one invisible "ghost ship" and to assign him/her (whatever) to red coalition , for a start?:hmm2:

EDIT:
Maybe you can use a liferaft for a quick testing?

gap

09-06-15, 10:33 AM

Randomize distance between units in groups from 800-1000m (I'm planing to increase this to 800-1100m, before was always 900)

Found some interesting info on this topic:

Distance between ships was generally about 500 feet [152.4 m] fore and aft and 1,000 feet [304.8 m] abeam, but such instructions often proved purely theoretical. [I suspect the figures above are to be intended in yards rather than in feet. If it was so, we would get some more reasonable distances of 457.2 m between ships in the same column, and 914.4 m between two adjacent columns]
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=TgFx3m0ySd8C&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=%22500+feet+fore+and+aft+and+1,000+feet%22&source=bl&ots=frUdW39pZK&sig=K-yNuQvmQa106F_hiL1u4iPeWMg&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMImNrG_NXexwIVQzgaCh1HiQHP

Normally a convoy was formed in a rectangular shape, with a much wider frontage than depth. Ships most commonly occupied nine to eleven parallel columns, each averaging five ships. Both weather conditions and the need to avoid collisions could affect the formation. The distance diagonally across a convoy of 45 ships might be 8000 yards [this figure is consistent with a spacing of 5 cables / 926.6 m between columns, to 4 cables / 741.28 m between ships in a column]. Escort vessels were about 3000 yards [2,743.2 m] further out in order to stand a chance of detecting U-boats before they came within torpedo range of the merchant ships. Thus the perimeter to be defended might amount in some cases to 60,000 yards [54,864 m], or 30 sea miles.
source: http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/convoy.aspx

Convoys of between 40 and 60 ships would steam in columns with 2 miles between each column [3,704 m; this figure is inconsistent with what is stated below by the same source. I suspect the 2 miles figure provided here to be a misprint for 1/2 miles, i.e. 926 m] and a third of mile [617.33 m] between each ship. A twelve-column convoy would extend 5 1/2 nautical miles in length [10,186 m; i.e. 926 m between each column] and almost two miles deep [3,704 m, if this figure was to be taken to the letter, supposing 5-ship columns (60/12 = 5) it would entail a distance of ca. 926 m between ships in the same column; again, this is inconsistent by large with the figure of 1/3 miles / 536 m stated above. Since number of ships in each column is not stated explicitly, and the figure is provided as approximate, I would rather ignore it]

[...]

In the early months of the war, naval escorts for outgoing convoys from the British Isles could go only 300 miles out to sea before having to turn back to escort incoming convoys. Escort destroyers could stay out safely for only seven days without refuelling, which meant three and half days' cover for a convoy and three and half back. This was increased to 400 miles by October 1940 and to halfway across the Atlantic by April 1941. Since air cover for shipping could also be provided from the British Isles, from Canada and Iceland, the Atlantic space left open to the U-boats was reduced by May 1941 to a width of around 300 miles. Even so, it was a yawning chasm, and in any event it did not stop German submarines exploiting the tragets wherever they might find them.
[Though not strictly relevant to the discussed topic, I decided to include this paragraph because this is an important aspect of the convoy system which unfortunately can't be fully replicated in game. A possible workaround to simulate the mid-Atlantic gap could be splitting each convoy set within GroupTypes.cfg files into 2-3 legs, one of which totally unescorted. This would entail the first leg of each convoy despawning somewhere in mid Atlantic, and a similar convoy re-spawning at the same point but without escorts. It would be a lot of work though :doh:]

source: https://books.google.it/books?id=2ySIdm6-akEC&pg=PT37&lpg=PT37&dq=distance+between+ships+in+convoys&source=bl&ots=XRF9IHE_Fl&sig=bmZGrwk35JXyasOQjRFmJX1UsiU&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ6AEwA2oVChMItsfp4NzexwIVSe4aCh31uQcW#v=on epage&q=distance%20between%20ships%20in%20convoys&f=true

Experience in the First War had shown that massed shipping, on an ocean crossing, could be protected better when spread over a broad front than in two or three long lines. In the Second World war a typical convoy of, say, 44 ships would be allocated positions in columns on a grid whose corner numbering would be 11, 111, 114 and 14.

[...]

The distance to be mantained between columns was generally 1000 yards [914.4 m] and the distance between ships in a column was intended to be 800 yards [731.52 m], but this might vary according to circumstances.

[...]

Allocation of ships to specific columns would not be haphazard: groups of ships with a common destination (called 'portions') would be allocated places in the convoy appropriate to their direction of travel from the 'Split Position' on the further side of the Atlantic Ocean.

[...]

Within these portions, considerations would also be given to the value and urgency of the cargo of each ship. The materials of the highest value were, of course, oil and munitions for keeping up the fight. Food, wood and iron-ore seem not to have been given high priority, and often featured on the exposed wings.

[...]

The average speed of a fast convoy (ON westward-bound, HX eastward-bound) was nine knots an that of a slow convoy (ONS westward, SC eastward) was seven knots.
From the meeting point with the ocean escort to the dispersal point on the opposite side of the ocean might take 8 days with a fast convoy and twelve with a slow. These journey-tomes might have to be extended due to adverse weather conditions.
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=aWyCp-L6HUEC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=%22Distance+between+ships%22+convoy&source=bl&ots=C6z5ZA-hBF&sig=GvN9q3cBReC58iE9djRAUEL9Y8E&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAmoVChMI266euN3hxwIVSUAUCh1xzAGC#v=on epage&q=%22Distance%20between%20ships%22%20convoy&f=false

U-boat Countermeasures - October 1940
Thirty-five attacks on U-boats or supposed U-boats were made during the month. Eighteen of these by surface ships, four by submarines and thirteen by aircraft.
This month has been devoted to developing and improving measures taken to counter day and night U-boat attacks on convoys. To this end changes have been made both in the disposition of convoys and of their escorts.
Great efforts are being made to equip all convoy escorts with apparatus, which will enable them to locate a U-boat on the surface at night outside visibility distance. As more ships are fitted, dispositions will be changed so as to make the maximum use of this aid. [This appears to be the first mantion of radar being used and it is strange that a name has not been attached to the new aid.]
This new equipment has also been fitted into aircraft of Coastal Command and Fleet Air Arm. It will detect U-boats on the surface up to a range of 15 miles, and will be especially valuable for detecting U-boats on the surface at night.
It is hoped that depth charges will be carried by the aircraft, but in any event the enemy can be forced under and kept submerged until the arrival of Asdic-fitted ships, or until he is compelled to surface to re-charge batteries.
The transfer of all convoy routes to the North-Western Approaches in July led to considerable difficulty in the provision of air escorts for convoys, owing to the lack of adequate landing ground facilities in that area; these difficulties are being surmounted and it is now becoming possible to operate aircraft at night for convoy escort work. It is intended to provide the maximum air escort for three hours before darkness falls, as this is the period in which U-boats take up their positions, pareparatory to night attack.
The high percentage of hits recently obtained by U-boats in night attacks has made it necessary to increase the distance apart of convoy columns from three [555.96 m] to five cables [926.6 m]. [...] This materially reduces the theoretical chances of more than one ship being hit by a salvo.
[...] the following measures are employed by convoy escorts against the enemy tactics.

By Day
On an attack being made, escorts on each side of the convoy form on line of bearing on the mean line of advance of the convoy, ships 2,500 yards apart, then move to a position three miles in rear of the convoy, turn outwards together 90° and sweep in line abreast for one hour. All ships drop depth charges on the initial turn and further depth charges every two miles of the sweep. If by this time no contact has been obtained, escorts re-join the convoy.

By Night
Escorts are disposed in line ahead 3,000 yards apart at visibility distance from the convoy. In the event of attack, all ships on the engaged side, or on both sides if the side of attack is in doubt, turn 90° outwards together and proceed at full speeed for a distance of 10 miles from the convoy, firing star shells to illuminate the area. Destroyers are stationed in van and rear positions where possible.
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=ApBABAAAQBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=Convoy+columns+cables&source=bl&ots=rGXn5axH96&sig=iTxoELtmBzyFrEhpgmXxptdD0dg&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIw_SPiovhxwIVAc8UCh3lHAGG#v=on epage&q=Convoy%20columns%20cables&f=false

The high percentage of hits obtained by U-boats in night attacks made it necessary in November 1940 to increase the distance apart of convoy columns from about 600 yards [548.64 m] to about 1000 yards [914.4 m]. The distance between ships in the same column was about 400 yards [365.76 m]. In December 1940 the distance between columns during the daytime was reduced back to 600 yards to increase protection against air attacks.

To counter the heavy losses suffered as a result of the night attacks by surfaced U-boats in September and October 1940 the escorts were stationed in positions down each wing at a greater distance from the convoy than before. In the event of an attack, they were instructed to proceed outward from the convoy for a distance of 10 miles at full speed, firing star shell to illuminate the area where the U-boat might be, in an attempt to sight her or force her to submerge, thereby improving the chances of Asdic detection. If contact was made, two escorts were to hunt the U-boat, while the remainder were to rejoin the convoy.

Later, when radar-equipped escorts became available, they were stationed one on each beam of the convoy, about 4 miles from it in order to avoid back echoes from the convoy on the radar set. The beam escorts were to steam on the same and opposite courses as the convoy, zigzagging as requisite for self-protection. Another method of sweeping, which was under trial in order to effect an economy in fuel, was for the escort to start a slow turn of 360° when in a position abeam of the leading ships, thus sweeping outwards and astern at about 1° per second, and on completion assuming station abeam of the rear ships. The remainder of the escorts were disposed as before, but were instructed to bear in mind that, at night, the rear wing positions were the most important and that, in the event of a U-boat attack, star shell searches were to be made in the rear of the convoy also.
source: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/ASW-2.html

A convoy of forty-five ships, says Roskill, would cover 5 square miles of sea [this figure is compatible with the ones provided further below by Macintyre]. A broad front was preferred; Roskill's diagram shows a 45-ship convoy disposed in nine columns each of five ships, and a 55-ship convoy in eleven columns of five. Macintyre, on the other hand, referring to the 35-ship SC 7 [October, 1940], says:

a convoy of 35 ships would be formed up in five columns of four ships and three columns of five ships each, the longer columns being in the centre. The columns would be five cables [926.6 m] (half a mile) apart, the ships in columns three cables [555.96 m] (600 yards) apart...
Such a formation was necessary for several reasons. Long columns invariably became strung out. Whereas a column of five ships would probably be one and a half miles long, 15 ships would rarely be less than six or seven. Thus the broad-fronted formation was more compact from the point of view of escorting, while signals from the Commodore, leading one of the centre columns, could be seen simultaneously from all the ships. Furthermore, it offered a smaller target to submarines which normally attacked from the flank.
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=hzPAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA290&lpg=PA290&dq=Convoy+columns+cables&source=bl&ots=bYOhyr3Mo-&sig=5__Yiuq8eJdOGKJAsbxkyhhDD7A&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAmoVChMIw_SPiovhxwIVAc8UCh3lHAGG#v=on epage&q=Convoy%20columns%20cables&f=false

[...] convoy WS6 [April, 1941], carrying troops round the Cape of Good Hope to the war in the Middle East, was 'formed in 10 columns, three ships to a column. Speed of convoy 9 knots. Distance between columns 1000 yards [914.4 m], distance between ships in the column 600 yards [548.64 m]. Station keeping between columns fair, between ships in column, fair to poor.'
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=rra8BQAAQBAJ&pg=PT360&lpg=PT360&dq=%22Distance+between+ships%22+convoy&source=bl&ots=Z74Yx4_1Me&sig=Gt10JjVNl6KX-GHkjR0XsVUMnSk&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBGoVChMI266euN3hxwIVSUAUCh1xzAGC#v=on epage&q=%22Distance%20between%20ships%22%20convoy&f=false

Convoy HX-150 [September 1941], with 44 merchantmen underway from Halifax on September 16, 1941, was the first to use US escorts, which relieved Canadian escorts 350 miles east of Halifax on September 17. [At last! This is the date I was looking for, when US escorts to be added to the "FreeAmerican" roster should start spawning within Allied convoys :up:] The escort screen was commanded by Captain Morton L. Deyo in Ericsson. Convoy was disposed in nine columns, with distance between columns set at 600 yards [548.64 m]. Ericsson's station was 2,000 yards [1,828.8 m] directly ahead. The other four destroyers, a mix of one Benson class and three 4-pipers, patrolled 500-2000 yards [457.2-1,828.8 m] from the outer ships in the convoy. Column distances were tightened at night. On clear nights the destroyers continued their patrols, but on foggy nights they were to "keep station".
source: http://www.daileyint.com/seawar/seawar3.htm

The Countermeasures Review for August 1942 states:

[...]

Numerically our escorts are weak, but there is little doubt that technical improvements, leading to a greater reliability in such aids as H/F D/F and RDF, combined with lack of experience on the part of the U-boats, are telling, heavily in our favour.

[...]

When the ships are so fitted for reception, the first indications of the presence of U-boats have been in every case H/F D/F bearings, and these have also been of great assistance to Escort Commanders in appreciating the subsequent situations. Type 271 RDF has proved a most efficient detector by night and the quick action taken by escort vessels has, in many cases, thwarted the night attack.
This has apparently forced the U-boats to abandon their usual tactics and to attack submerged in daylight, accepting lack of mobility and a low speed against an escort weakened by memebers searching on D/F bearings. These day attacks have resulted in as many as five ships being torpedoed by one salvo; to lessen the chance of such success recurring, instructions were issued in the third week of August to open out the distance between the columns of a convoy to five cables [926.6 m] by day as well as by night.
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=ApBABAAAQBAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=distance+between+ships+in+convoys&source=bl&ots=rGXn58zKb4&sig=uXx17e0MjnvlD1ypuaDeRKfgZF8&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBDgKahUKEwj1ltOayeDHAhVGWxQKHb4BAoI#v =onepage&q=distance%20between%20ships%20in%20convoys&f=false

[Convoy PQ18, September, 1942]
Each column 4 cables [741.28 m] apart. Distance between ships in each column 2 cables [370.64 m] apart. Normal cruising speed 8 knots.
source: http://www.russianarcticconvoymuseum.co.uk/docs/LeslieEckert_UlsterQueen_by_MalcolmEckert.pdf

The convoy [HX 212, October-November, 1942] had 45 ships, sailing in 4 rows, 12 columns, the Commodore saying that "the convoy was formed at my special request in 12 columns. I am firmly convinced that the safest formation for a convoy is when formed with a wide front, and thin in depth. Thus my arrangement for 36 ships would be in 18 columns of 2 each. No difficulty was found in manouvering the larger number of columns, and signals in practise pass outwards quicker than they do from front to rear, as the more ships in the column, the greater the distance between ships, owing to bad station keeping. Guides on the whole keep pretty good station. I would like my next convoy to try a wide front. It also has the advantage that stragglers can be seen at once from the Commodore's ship and checked.

From the escorts' point of view, the wide front should be popular, as the vessels stationed on the beam could be closer in, and have less area of water to cover. The front of the convoy, if ships were say 3 to 4 cables apart, could be covered by 3 vessels, and one would be required at least astern. An extra destroyer would be useful for reconnaissance at a distance in advance and astern of convoy. In my opinion, this last is one of the most important of the escorts' duties, when air reconnaissance is not available".

Distance between columns: 700 yards [640.08 m].
Distance between ships in columns: 500 yards [457.2 m].
Average speed: 8.69 knots.
source: http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hx212.html

The convoy [HX 221, December, 1942-January, 1943] had 38 ships.
Average speed: 8.6 knots.
Distance between columns: 1000 yards [914.4 m].
Distance between ships in columns: 500 yards [457.2 m].
source: http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hx221.html

Enroute Casablanca, French Morocco to United States. Convoy G.U.F.-3 [December, 1942 - January, 1943] consisting of 9 ships escorted by the U.S.S. NEW YORK abd U.S.S. PHILADELPHIA and screened by DESTROYER SQUADRON 15. C.T.F. 35 [...]. Convoy is formed in 4 columns, distance between columns 700 yards [640.08 m], distance between ships in columns 500 yards [457.2 m]. The U.S.S. NEW YORK, convoy guide, is leader of second column. U.S.S. PHILADELPHIA is stationed 1,000 yards, twenty five degrees on starboard bow of the U.S.S. NEW YORK. DESTROYER SQUADRON 15 is stationed on a semi-circle from approximately 8,000 yards on each beam of the guide to 6,000 yards ahead of the guide.
source: http://www.brigs.us/phila/Gardner/1942_War_Diary0224.pdf

[...] the convoy [ONS 5, April-May, 1943] was arranged in 12 columns with 4 ships in each, except for column 6 which had 2 and column 12 which had 3 ships. The distance between each ship in the column was set at 800 yards [731.52 m], with 1000 yards [914.4 m] between each column, making the front of the convoy 5,5 miles wide and a little over 1 n. mile deep.
source: http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bonde.html

The orders for the convoy [KMS 18B, June-July 1943] specify a cruising speed of 9 knots and a distance of three cables – 600 yards [548.64 m] - between ships in columns
source: http://davidgibbins.com/journal/2014/12/17/mv-empire-elaine-convoy-kms-18b-and-operation-husky-10-july-1943

[Convoy HX 246, June-July, 1943]
Distance between colums - 1000 yards [914.4 m]
Distance between ships in columns - 500 yards[457.2 m]
source: http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hx246.html

Next convoy to be subject to fancy Luftwaffe tactics was UGS-37 [March-April 1944] consisting of 60 merchant ships and six LSTs escorted by five United States destroyers, eight DEs, two British PCs, two tugs and aintiaircraft cruiser H.M.S. Delhi. [...] The convoy was in close formation, 400 yards' [365.76 m] distance between ships, 600-yard [548.64 m] intervals between columns, making 7 1/2 knots over a calm sea [...]
source: https://books.google.it/books?id=1BL5y6Ne3EQC&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=distance+between+ships+in+convoys&source=bl&ots=7-8LmrubCH&sig=OH2JCn-UBWYXBA97JLUg-gPR9lo&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCWoVChMIz9qF4t7fxwIVjDwUCh3e6QRW#v=on epage&q=distance%20between%20ships%20in%20convoys&f=false

The largest mercantile convoy to sail in this or any other war was HXS 300, which sailed New York on 17 July 1944 and arrived U.K. on 3 August with 167 ships and only 7 mid-ocean escorts. With 19 columns, this convoy had a front of some 9 miles [16,668 m; i.e. a distance of ca. 926 m between columns].
source: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/011-Convoy/011-Convoy-3.html

CONVOY No. O.N.270 [December, 1944]

Distance between columns:
East of 7 deg West 3 cables [555.96 m]
West of 7 deg West 5 cables [926.6 m]

Distance between ships in column:

To R/V 2 cables [370.64 m]
Than 3 cables [555.96 m]

Normal cruising speed: 9.5 knots
source: http://jproc.ca/rrp/apend_b2.html

summing up, these are the possible combinations (distances rounded to the nearest multiple of half a cable, i.e. 1/20 nmi, ca. 93 m):

Column Row
spacing (m) spacing (m) Convoy(s)
================================================== =============================
556 371 UGS-37 (Mar-44), ON-270 (Dec-44)
556 ? HX-150 (Sep-41)
649 371 none
649 463 HX-212 (Oct-42), GUF-3 (Dec-42)
741 371 PQ-18 (Sep-42)
741 463 none
741 556 none
927 463 HX-221 (Dec-42), HX-246 (Jun-43)
927 556 SC-7 (Oct-40), WS-6 (Apr-41), ON-270 (Dec-44)
927 741 ONS-5 (Apr-43)
927 ? HXS-300 (Jul-44)
? 556 KMS-18B (Jun-1943)

Personally I would use a random mix of the combinations above, with a preference for larger spacings (especially the 927 by 556 m formation) from October '40, and even more from August 1942. Also note that the shortest spacings need to be tested, as ships in game might tend to scatter in panic of collision, when steaming in close-formation convoys.

gap

09-06-15, 11:11 AM

@ Vecko

I have an hard time looking into your files. It is me, or all the paragraph marks are lost? :dead:

How much time do you actually need to create one invisible "ghost ship" and to assign him/her (whatever) to red coalition , for a start?:hmm2:

EDIT:
Maybe you can use a liferaft for a quick testing?

Stripping down Targor's lifeboat shouldn't take more than one hour or so :D :up:

vdr1981

09-06-15, 12:27 PM

summing up, these are the possible combinations (distances rounded to the nearest multiple of half a cable, i.e. 1/20 nmi, ca. 93 m):

Column Row
spacing (m) spacing (m) Convoy(s)
================================================== =============================
556 371 UGS-37 (Mar-44), ON-270 (Dec-44)
556 ? HX-150 (Sep-41)
649 371 none
649 463 HX-212 (Oct-42), GUF-3 (Dec-42)
741 371 PQ-18 (Sep-42)
741 463 none
741 556 none
927 463 HX-221 (Dec-42), HX-246 (Jun-43)
927 556 SC-7 (Oct-40), WS-6 (Apr-41), ON-270 (Dec-44)
927 741 ONS-5 (Apr-43)
927 ? HXS-300 (Jul-44)
? 556 KMS-18B (Jun-1943)

Personally I would use a random mix of the combinations above, with a preference for larger spacings (especially the 927 by 556 m formation) from October '40, and even more from August 1942. Also note that the shortest spacings need to be tested, as ships in game might tend to scatter in panic of collision, when steaming in close-formation convoys.
Great! I'll take your info into account next time when randomizing distances...

@ Vecko

I have an hard time looking into your files. It is me, or all the paragraph marks are lost? :dead:
All is fine here...Do you use Notepad++ ??:hmmm:

Stripping down Targor's lifeboat shouldn't take more than one hour or so :D :up:
Awesome! The best would be one lifeboat with merchant performances and one with destroyer...:yeah: Although, just one is perfectly OK for a start...

gap

09-07-15, 12:30 PM

Great! I'll take your info into account next time when randomizing distances...

I have read somewhere that during the last months of the conflict, when many unskilled captains were given commands, instructions were issued to widen column distances up to one nautical mile (!) in order to avoid collisions between ships. Unfotunately this information wasn't further detailed by the source reporting it, and I couldn't find any confirmation elsewhere on the web.

Please also check this other document, dating back to early '41 (seems to me a German intelligence report on British instructions for convoys):
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDU/BDUOrder155.htm

All is fine here...Do you use Notepad++ ??:hmmm:

I can confirm, with Notepad++ all is fine. :up:
Probably it uses a different standard encoding than MS Notepad. I hope the different encoding not to cause problems to the game engine.

Awesome! The best would be one lifeboat with merchant performances and one with destroyer...:yeah: Although, just one is perfectly OK for a start...

Working on it right now. The first dummy convoy leader will match merchan-ships standards. If the method works, a warship-like convoy leader will follow. :salute:

vdr1981

09-07-15, 01:44 PM

I can confirm, with Notepad++ all is fine. :up:
Probably it uses a different standard encoding than MS Notepad. I hope the different encoding not to cause problems to the game engine.

I haven't noticed any side effects but I'm going to fix it just in case...

EDIT:
Any comment on this subject Gap?:hmmm:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2342534&postcount=5698

gap

09-08-15, 09:19 AM

I am ready to test the first version of my indestructible convoy leaders. It is based on Targor's wooden lifeboats. So far it features:

visible model mesh (I am gonna make them invisible on a latter stage, if everything goes well during my first test);
damage/collision mesh (it should do nothing, see below);
no zon file (no collision detected, no damage taken);
no val file (no wake);
no dsd file (no sound);
no fx file (no effects);
sim file only contains cmdr_AIShip and unit_Ship controllers (ships specs copied from stock C2 ship);
no crew/equipment in eqp file;
AI_Visual set in sns file (not sure wether I should remove it or not, we will see);
unit not shown in SOAN/RM (I hope the unit won't even show in museum);
unit type: 105 (lifeboat).

Basic mod loadout for testing:

New NewUIs v7.4.2
IRAI v0.0.41

List of tests to be carried out

general: I will check if the unit will show up on map (with map contacts on), if she can be locked on in periscope view and if my crew reports it;
IQ test: I will check how the unit will react after spotting my U-boat;
crash test: I will try ramming the unit and see what happens;
ballistic drills: I will try hitting the unit with deck gun/torpedoes and see what happens.

Fingers crossed :up:

vdr1981

09-08-15, 11:16 AM

gap

09-08-15, 01:03 PM

Great Gap! :up::up:
Can you upload your files as a mod so I can make few test runs with those badass boats too? :D

By the way , ConvoyColSpacing=900.000000 is referred to distance between ships in single column...Not between columns...Tested...:yep:

ATM there's little to be tested. In ME everything looks okay; in museum I can see the new custom nation I have set for assigning the sailboat to its roster (this is a small side effect) though it appears not to have any ship viewable there (as expected); the mission loads fine too, the boat should be ca. 300 m in front of my bow, but then I cannot spot her LOL. My watchcrew/sonarman cannot locate her either, and the map shows no contact. It can be a problem with boat's unit_Ship settings (I copied the controller from a much bigger vessel, and its settings might cause the boat to steam semi-submerged or even to sink before I can spot her), or a conflict with unit type used. I will investigate further after dinner :salute:

vdr1981

09-08-15, 01:27 PM

No problem! Bon appetit!:up::up:

gap

09-08-15, 02:34 PM

No problem! Bon appetit!:up::up:

Merci, I am back now. I will post an update in a short while :salute:

vdr1981

09-08-15, 03:02 PM

gap

09-08-15, 03:52 PM

SO , you use invisible boats for testing , right?
Wouldn't be better to use visible lifeboats for testing purpose?:hmm2:

Sry if I've misunderstood you something, I really don't know much about ships importing...:-?

No, no, they were supposed to be visible, but since I had used C3 ship draft settings on Targor's boat, the boat was probably sinking before I could even load the testing mission, and obviously I had an hard time spotting her. :O:

Now everything is okay. The boat is there, though not reported by crew and invisible on map (with map contacts on). I can ram her at wish: no collision detected. I couldn't test her AI as I forgot to set her propeller and rudder properly, but I will post a link to a fixed version of my patch in a few minutes. :up:

On a side note, SH5 hasn't ever loaded that fast. On my new machine, from double clicking on the excutable to playing my custom mission took about 95 secs, and this was with NewUIs enabled :D

The other side of the medal, is that I have some flashing textures on the horizons where low clouds lay over land/trees. Problem disappear in binocular/scope/UZO view. It is a know fact that this game doesn't like Nvidia cards. I think I will have to start playing with gfx settings :hmm2:

vdr1981

09-08-15, 04:11 PM

No, no, they were supposed to be visible, but since I had used C3 ship draft settings on Targor's boat, the boat was probably sinking before I could even load the testing mission, and obviously I had an hard time spotting her. :O:

Now everything is okay. The boat is there, though not reported by crew and invisible on map (with map contacts on). I can ram her at wish: no collision detected. I couldn't test her AI as I forgot to set her propeller and rudder properly, but I will post a link to a fixed version of my patch in a few minutes. :up:

Got it ! Thanks !:up:

P.S.

1 min 32 sec from exe click to Balloon test mission...:O:
PC old as hell and 124 mods on board...:haha:
We need a new thread for this...:smug:

gap

09-08-15, 04:41 PM

1 min 32 sec from exe click to Balloon test mission...:O:
PC old as hell and 124 mods on board...:haha:
We need a new thread for this...:smug:

:o:doh::wah::D

Here's the testing patch:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/3yc3471v8zhvtx4/Dummy_Convoy_Leaders_Patch_v0.1.7z

A simple testing mission is included where you face one of those badass boats. Let me know if she tries any evasive maneuvers after spotting you. Now she should be able to move up to a speed of 12 knots. Also please design another mission where she is the convoy leader while I keep stripping her down. If everything works as expected this could be the base for simulating in game some hidden detection systems like sono buoys :salute:

vdr1981

09-08-15, 04:47 PM

:o:doh::wah::D

Here's the testing patch:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/3yc3471v8zhvtx4/Dummy_Convoy_Leaders_Patch_v0.1.7z

A simple testing mission is included where you face one of those badass boats. Let me know if she tries any evasive maneuvers after spotting you. Now she should be able to move up to a speed of 12 knots. Also please design another mission where she is the convoy leader while I keep stripping her down. If everything works as expected this could be the base for simulating in game some hidden detection systems like sono buoys :salute:

Downloading...:)

gap

09-08-15, 05:03 PM

Downloading...:)

Let me know. While you are doing your tests I will replace the current 3d model with a more basic mesh, and I will make it hidden. In place of visible meshes, I will equip the unit vith a flag weaving from an uninvisible pole, so that we will still be able to locate the unit. Once the testing is done and we are sure everything is okay, I will also remove that flag, and the unit will be totally hidden to the player as well as to the AI crew

P.S: I forgot mentioning before that the dummy unit can't be locked on neither in binocular nor in scope view :)

vdr1981

09-08-15, 05:28 PM

It seems that she's ignoring my presence but I cant tell for sure...:hmm2:

Maybe because she has neutral status or something? Is she neutral?
I even set her speed to 2 kn in ME in order to spot some sudden speed change but I'm not sure...

Is everything OK with defside.cfg because I couldn't find entries which would make her Side=1 unit?

If we manage to force her to act like casual merchant, tomorrow I'll do some testing in various situations, convoys, TF ect...:yep:

EDIT

I see now...
[SideEntry 202]
Country=Environmental ; //////////////////////////// C O N V O Y L E A D E R S \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Side=1
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

EDIT2

Can you assign her directly to British rooster as a new type of ship?

gap

09-08-15, 05:43 PM

It seems that she's ignoring my presence but I cant tell for sure...:hmm2:

...

If we manage to force her to act like casual merchant, tomorrow I'll do some testing in various situations, convoys, TF ect...:yep:

Maybe she ignores your sub because she knows she is invulnerable :O:

More seriously this might happen because she is set as a lifeboat. I am sure that changing her unittype to merchant will make her to react. But at this point I can't exclude that she will be shown on map, that our crew won't spot her, and that we won't be able to lock on it accidentally :hmmm:

...I will replace the current 3d model with a more basic mesh...

Or maybe I will use this model:

http://preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/2014/07/11__12_46_23/OrigamiShip_1.jpg508d03a2-93ff-4ffa-8f16-34bfbf9cfa95Original.jpg

vdr1981

09-08-15, 05:44 PM

I'm off for tonight...:salute:

And tomorrow those badass leaders will work like a charm...:rotfl2:

gap

09-08-15, 05:49 PM

EDIT2

Can you assign her directly to British rooster as a new type of ship?

Nope, I am sure this not the problem as far as the nationality that she is assigned to is Allied. You can try changing unit type. You should do it both in main units cfg file, in roster cfg file and in testing mission's misge file. Try using 102 for example. :know:

gap

09-08-15, 05:52 PM

something else you should test is wether other units in her group are affected or not by her ignoring our attack. If not, we could even leave her as she is now :03:

gap off :salute:

gap

09-08-15, 05:54 PM

ops vecko, just spotted the mistake:

[SideEntry 202]
Country=Environmental ; //////////////////////////// C O N V O Y L E A D E R S \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Side=1
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

You see now? :doh::88)

EDIT: after correcting my mistake in DefSides.cfg I still can't decide wether Targor's badass :haha: is reacting to my presence or not. Tomorrow I will equip her with a light gun and we will see.

Time to rest now
:Kaleun_Yawn:

vdr1981

09-09-15, 10:48 AM

Hello again Gap...:salute:

It seems that our badass leader doesn't work at all in groups (as a leader at least). The group will disperse almost immediately after mission is loaded. Can you confirm this?

I'm not sure that leader as env (or liferaft type) unit will work because it seems that it has no AI (right now it's intelligent as a floating mine :D) and therefore it can't 'pull' appropriate scripts for certain situations.

Any new patch version for me?

gap

09-09-15, 04:52 PM

Any new patch version for me?

Sure: :up:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/c7spx23dmn377nq/Dummy_Convoy_Leaders_Patch_v0.2.7z

I have fixed the wrong DefSsides entry (now ships in the "ConvoyLeaders" group should actually act as Allied units), and I have changed their tyoe to 102 (freighter).
If you hace created a set of testing missions you can keep using them, but you should edit the their misge file manually anc change leader's type to 102. :salute:

vdr1981

09-09-15, 05:59 PM

vdr1981

09-09-15, 06:07 PM

And on a side note...Here's how it looks convoy spawned in WA campaign with all groups set to ...ConvoyRowSpacing=1000.000000
ConvoyColSpacing=500.000000
http://s28.postimg.org/f3ojsknft/SH5_Img_2015_09_10_00_20_05.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/f3ojsknft/)

Almost perfect box formation with 500m (row/column) distance between merchants...Not a good news for our rectangular convoy plans...:stare:

gap

09-09-15, 07:38 PM

Hey...
I've made exactly the same changes today like you did in v2 patch but still, AI in a group of Hood battleship and 3 destroyers acts really strange. Group first disperse, then forms again, badass boat going in opposite direction, battleship rams destroyer ect ect...

On the other hand, when I placed regular Ranger tanker to lead the group instead of badass boat, the group was acted almost perfectly realistic (I've actually saw for the first time a battleship which really acts like that) .:hmmm:

Further more , badass boat was still shown on the map as a "green" unit?:doh:

Do you have similar findings?

I'll repeat same tests with your patch though...

If the lifeboat-leader is shown as green there's just one possible explaination: wrong defsides settings. Check if there's any mistyping in the file. All the other problems with erratic convoy behaviour might come from there.

And on a side note...Here's how it looks convoy spawned in WA campaign with all groups set to ...ConvoyRowSpacing=1000.000000
ConvoyColSpacing=500.000000

Almost perfect box formation with 500m (row/column) distance between merchants...Not a good news for our rectangular convoy plans...:stare:

So, apparently only ConvoyColSpacing (or the lesser between the latter and
ConvoyRowSpacing) is applied for both row and column distances :hmmm:

vdr1981

09-09-15, 08:14 PM

If the lifeboat-leader is shown as green there's just one possible explaination: wrong defsides settings. Check if there's any mistyping in the file. All the other problems with erratic convoy behaviour might come from there.
I dont get it...defside.cfg seems fine but still the boat is green, even with your patch v0.2...:hmmm: I used your mission for a quick check (just dont tell me it is red in your game? :D)

So, apparently only ConvoyColSpacing (or the lesser between the latter and
ConvoyRowSpacing) is applied for both row and column distances :hmmm:
I just hope that maybe my faulty encoding somehow confuse campaign engine...Just started HT campaign with correct encoding and distances 900/600...

gap

09-10-15, 09:31 AM

I dont get it...defside.cfg seems fine but still the boat is green, even with your patch v0.2...:hmmm: I used your mission for a quick check (just dont tell me it is red in your game? :D)

Hi Vecko, let me to have a closer look into the problem :salute:

I just hope that maybe my faulty encoding somehow confuse campaign engine...Just started HT campaign with correct encoding and distances 900/600...

I don't think so. If the game didn't support your encoding, it would have likely crashed on campaign restart. :hmmm:

P.S: I am still curious to see the arrangement of a larger convoy (at least 20+ ships) when the "columns" parameters is set to 0.

vdr1981

09-10-15, 10:55 AM

P.S: I am still curious to see the arrangement of a larger convoy (at least 20+ ships) when the "columns" parameters is set to 0.
Here it is...

http://s6.postimg.org/i825dwui5/SH5_Img_2015_09_10_17_45_48.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/i825dwui5/)

GroupTypeDefs.cfg
[HX_]
Role=1
Doctrine=0
EscortPosition=1
EscortSpacing=1100.000000
ConvoyRowSpacing=1000.000000
ConvoyColSpacing=500.000000
Columns=0
IsWolfPack=false

[HX_.EscortUnit 1]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.EscortUnit 2]
Type=4
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.EscortUnit 3]
Type=4
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=90
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.EscortUnit 4]
Type=1
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=14
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=3
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 1]
Type=102
Class=KLWarSupplies
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 2]
Type=102
Class=KLWarSupplies
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=15
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=6
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 3]
Type=101
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 4]
Type=102
CountryName=British
ExternalCargo=15
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=6
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 5]
Type=102
CountryName=Canadian
ExternalCargo=0
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=4
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 6]
Type=101
CountryName=Panama
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 7]
Type=102
CountryName=Panama
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=3
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 8]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeBelgium
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 9]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeDenmark
ExternalCargo=8
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=50
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 10]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeFinland
ExternalCargo=8
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 11]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeFrench
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 12]
Type=101
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 13]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 14]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeGreece
ExternalCargo=0
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=40
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 15]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeNetherlands
ExternalCargo=5
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 16]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeNorway
ExternalCargo=5
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 17]
Type=102
CountryName=FreePoland
ExternalCargo=0
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=2
SpawnProbability=80
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 18]
Type=102
CountryName=FreePoland
ExternalCargo=5
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=100
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 19]
Type=102
CountryName=FreeSweden
ExternalCargo=6
InternalCargo=0
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=10
GroupLinkId=0

[HX_.ConvoyUnit 20]
Type=101
CountryName=Brazil
ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0
Required=false
No=1
SpawnProbability=20
GroupLinkId=0

gap

09-10-15, 12:15 PM

Here it is...

http://s6.postimg.org/i825dwui5/SH5_Img_2015_09_10_17_45_48.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/i825dwui5/)

GroupTypeDefs.cfg

Thank you mate :up:

This convoy looks perfetct to me: 29 merchant ships arranged in 7 columns of 4 ships each, except for column #4 having 5 ships. The ship steaming slightly in front of the convoy, in column #1 (position 41) must be the commodore ship, i.e. the convoy leader. Escort structure also looks okay: 5 escorts, 2 on each wing and one sailing on the back of the convoy. And it is me or, on average, columns' spacing is wider than ships' spacing within each colum (exactly as supposed)? :yeah:

vdr1981

09-10-15, 12:29 PM

Thank you mate :up:

This convoy looks perfetct to me: 29 merchant ships arranged in 7 columns of 4 ships each, except for column #4 having 5 ships. The ship steaming slightly in front of the convoy, in column #1 (position 41) must be the commodore ship, i.e. the convoy leader. Escort structure also looks okay: 5 escorts, 2 on each wing and one sailing on the back of the convoy. And it is me or, on average, columns' spacing is wider than ships' spacing within each colum (exactly as supposed)? :yeah:
Even better...Now I'm 100% sure that tankers always go on the middle of the convoy regardless of assigned convoy unit number. Probably it is the same for troop transport...
Later , I'll upload the same picture with marked units distribution...
In short, freighters - random, tankers - in the middle, which is perfectly OK...:salute:

However, I don't like convoys with perfect formation like this one but , nothing we can do about it...

vdr1981

09-10-15, 12:33 PM

Thank you mate :up:

And it is me or, on average, columns' spacing is wider than ships' spacing within each colum (exactly as supposed)? :yeah:

Nope, it is just you...:O:
It's 500 m in both sides.

http://s6.postimg.org/git25uesx/SH5_Img_2015_09_10_01_38_46.png (http://postimage.org/) http://s6.postimg.org/efimy6f01/SH5_Img_2015_09_10_01_38_53.png (http://postimage.org/)
image hosting more than 5mb (http://postimage.org/)

gap

09-10-15, 12:58 PM

Nope, it is just you...:O:
It's 500 m in both sides.

:-?

yet, judging from your previous screenshot I am sure the towards the wings of the convoy ships' distances from bow to sterm in narrower than from beam to beam. Obviously the game randomizes things, making the estimation of average distances difficult. Maybe we can try setting column distances much wider than they are now (something like 2,000 m) and see what happens? :hmm2:

gap

09-10-15, 01:34 PM

Still struggling for making our super-lifeboats red. I still don't gent where is the problem :hmmm:

EDIT: another weirdness is she going in the opposite direction than set in ME, LOL. I think this is due to her propeller bone being flipped along the z axis, and this might also be causing her strange behaviour inside convoys.
Hopefully I can fix this problem easily. If not, I think I will convert our badass lifeboat into a badass iceberg :O: :D

vdr1981

09-10-15, 02:40 PM

:-?
Maybe we can try setting column distances much wider than they are now (something like 2,000 m) and see what happens? :hmm2:
6000 maybe? :O: 1000/500 was just enough to notice some difference but it doesn't work. I just confirmed it with my new campaign.
Column spacing is ignored completely and Row spacing value is taken for both.
Escort spacing seems to work ok which is good...:yep:

But...We can at least simulate your idea regarding convoy density for every individual campaign...:yep:

Still struggling for making our super-lifeboats red. I still don't gent where is the problem :hmmm:

EDIT: another weirdness is she going in the opposite direction than set in ME, LOL. I think this is due to her propeller bone being flipped along the z axis, and this might also be causing her strange behaviour inside convoys.
Hopefully I can fix this problem easily. If not, I think I will convert our badass lifeboat into a badass iceberg :O: :D
Yes, I've noticed that too... Does she have any sensors at all? maybe you should put some on them , at least visual...I dont know...