Hedgehog

[flugkapitan]

Greetings!

Just wanted to post that I've finally made it to June 1944. I'm in a Type IXC/40. On my way south to the EJ98 quadrant, I encountered a small convoy with 4 escorts. Sank a large merchant and a passenger/cargo.

All I can say is the Hedgehogs are uber bad ass :wah:

Given the escorts capabilities at this stage of the war, attacking the convoy probably wasn't the wisest tactical (to say nothing of a bad career move!) decision on my part :hmmm:

Amazing how I'm still enjoying this sim after all these years. Many thanks to all the modders out there an also to those that have provided advice in this forum :salute:

Cheers,
Scott

[Torplexed]

When hedgehogs start to show up on the fore-decks of escorts is about the time I start taking very long range pot shots at convoys. Once the torpedoes are clear of the tubes I just creep away as fast and as deep as I can. Maybe I miss the convoy completely, but I just don't want to take the chance of being in the sonar cone of an escort so equipped. :o

[Aktungbby]

Actually the sonar cone had little to do with it hence the hedgehog-to alleviate the 'blind spot' of a sonar contact. The Hedgehog became much more successful than depth-charge attacks (the best kill rate was about 25% of attacks whereas depth charges never achieved more than 7%). It initially had a very poor record, although many of the factors had nothing to do with the design of the weapon. USS England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_England_(DE-635)) sank six Japanese submarines in a matter of days with Hedgehog in May 1944. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Hedgehog_anti-submarine_mortar.jpg<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/U-853-sinking1.jpg<....The group discovered U-853 type IX-C/40 bottomed in 18 fathoms (108 ft; 33 m),:oops: and dropped depth charges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge) and hedgehogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_(weapon)) during a 16 hour attack. At first the U-boat attempted to flee, and then tried to hide by lying still. Both times it was found by sonar.The morning of 6 May 1945 two K-Class blimps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Class_blimp) from Lakehurst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakehurst,_New_Jersey), New Jersey, K-16 and K-58, joined the attack, locating oil slicks and marking suspected locations with smoke and dye markers. K-16 also attacked with 7.2-inch rocket bombs. Numerous depth charge and hedgehog attacks from Atherton and Moberly resulted in planking, life rafts, a chart tabletop, clothing, and an officer's cap floating to the surface. With the loss of all 55 officers and men, U-853 was one of the last U-boats sunk during World War II. and, with U-881 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-881), the last to be sunk in US waters. Atherton and Moberly received credit for the kill. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/U-853-crew.gif/300px-U-853-crew.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U-853-crew.gif)<U-853 now at 121 feet thirteen miles off Block Island, Rhode Island [wiki]http://www.aquaexplorers.com/u85310u.jpghttp://www.aquaexplorers.com/u-853_shipwreck.htm (http://www.aquaexplorers.com/u-853_shipwreck.htm) The U-boats' sinking was after Donitz's transmitted order to cease offensive operations on May 1 1945!??

[Marcello]

Hedgehogs are dangerous even for a XXI if you aren't careful. Standoff attacks would be nice but unless you are messing with Ingolin fueled torpedoes I am not sure they are really workable in 1944-1945. From what I remember the destroyer screens at least in the big convoys are such that even the wet-heater on slow settings come up short. And I f I have to start to dodge destroyers then might as well get close with electrics. Of course the VII/IX in 1944-45 were going out largely to tie down allied assets, sinking something and surviving was extra.

[Jimbuna]

Greetings!

Just wanted to post that I've finally made it to June 1944. I'm in a Type IXC/40. On my way south to the EJ98 quadrant, I encountered a small convoy with 4 escorts. Sank a large merchant and a passenger/cargo.

All I can say is the Hedgehogs are uber bad ass :wah:

Given the escorts capabilities at this stage of the war, attacking the convoy probably wasn't the wisest tactical (to say nothing of a bad career move!) decision on my part :hmmm:

Amazing how I'm still enjoying this sim after all these years. Many thanks to all the modders out there an also to those that have provided advice in this forum :salute:

Cheers,
Scott

A change in tactics is usually warranted at this period in time, either attacking from a longer distance to avoid possible detection or getting up real close so the hedgehog isn't a viable option for the convoy escorts.

The former is the safer option but the latter can be far more challenging and gameplay immersive.

[sublynx]

Those pictures of a hedgehog battery and the pattern visible on the water after launch gives me the creeps. If I see a nightmare this night I'm sure it has a hedgehog in it :timeout:

[UKönig]

Fantastic photos!

If there is one thing I like more than looking at ship pictures, it's looking at ship-wreck pictures.

Cool stuff, sad story...

[maillemaker]

When hedgehogs start to show up on the fore-decks of escorts is about the time I start taking very long range pot shots at convoys. Once the torpedoes are clear of the tubes I just creep away as fast and as deep as I can. Maybe I miss the convoy completely, but I just don't want to take the chance of being in the sonar cone of an escort so equipped.

Yup, once the hedgehogs show up, it's time for Hail Mary torpedo attacks.

Until you get homing torpedoes. :D

Then it's open season on escorts. :)

Steve

[Aktungbby]

Those pictures of a hedgehog battery and the pattern visible on the water after launch gives me the creeps. If I see a nightmare this night I'm sure it has a hedgehog in it :timeout:

Fantastic photos!

If there is one thing I like more than looking at ship pictures, it's looking at ship-wreck pictures.

Cool stuff, sad story...

Glad you enjoyed them! the one picture immediately after the circular pattern shot- I did not initially include- shows they all (24 spigot bombs) hit the way too shallow 18 fathom bottom and detonated...simultaneously.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/U-853-sinking2.jpg:oops: :dead: A terrible waste of life when considering the missed message to surrender from ADM Dönitz. Why the U-boat did not rise and surrender remains ...an enigma.

[Jimbuna]

Those pictures of a hedgehog battery and the pattern visible on the water after launch gives me the creeps. If I see a nightmare this night I'm sure it has a hedgehog in it :timeout:

http://i.imgur.com/6htOJxp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pG9ndZo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BPfUsqw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bon4GEX.jpg

[Jax von May]

Nice. Ive sunk a few million MT, but never managed to keep a crew beyond a single camp\aign... mod addiction i guess.:salute:


Greetings!

Just wanted to post that I've finally made it to June 1944. I'm in a Type IXC/40. On my way south to the EJ98 quadrant, I encountered a small convoy with 4 escorts. Sank a large merchant and a passenger/cargo.

All I can say is the Hedgehogs are uber bad ass :wah:

Given the escorts capabilities at this stage of the war, attacking the convoy probably wasn't the wisest tactical (to say nothing of a bad career move!) decision on my part :hmmm:

Amazing how I'm still enjoying this sim after all these years. Many thanks to all the modders out there an also to those that have provided advice in this forum :salute:

Cheers,
Scott

[sublynx]

Great shots but extremely detrimental to my willingness to confront the enemy!

[Jimbuna]

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!! http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8636/cdw.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/cdw.gif/)

[Aktungbby]

Great shots but extremely detrimental to my willingness to confront the enemy!

What I find ironic is the Germanic /Norse mythological And Wagnerian sense of it all. Hitler really liked Wagner- incorporating what he could into Nazi myth and one of the great themes is Siegfried's heroic entering into the 'Ring of Fire' from Der Ring des Nibelungen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen). Not too many U-bootwaffen Siegfried's survived this 'ring of fire' ...only the Götterdämmerung of a watery bourn:dead: http://i.imgur.com/BPfUsqw.jpg:k_confused:great pic! all 24 splashes seem to be there!

[UKönig]

I think those pictures clearly illustrate the effectiveness of the hedgehog launcher.
In a type VII or IX, at creep speed, like 1-3 knots, you aren't going to be fast enough to get out of the way. No dashing to the left or right, or staying straight ahead. If you are moving at flank speed, like 7 knots, then you are making enough racket that they can use their regular 500lbs bombs without relying on the hedgehog system. Really, only the type XXI had the dash ability to get out of the way in time, and they were never used in battle.

[Marcello]

Problem is that even in XXI you still get no report of a hedgehog attack, unlike for depth charges, so you have to guess when to start to run. But if you start to push the pedal to the metal too often and for too long you will collect a pack of escorts on your back. And that is not pretty, even with latest Bold countermeasures, Alberich and a lot of juice in the battery. Once you find yourself with 4-5 DEs trying to get you things get dicey even in a wunderwaffen.

[sublynx]

One would have heard the projectiles hitting the water. The non-report must be a huge bug, right?

[Aktungbby]

I'm not sure how much a passive listener on a uboat could pick up in time to permit his skipper to evade in a hedgehog 'encirclement'...practically none. Here is a fact I did not know or even consider beforehand: "The contact-fused bombs were filled with 32 pounds of Torpex – if one bomb hit the target it exploded and the rest of the pattern detonated too, greatly increasing the likelihood of a successful attack compared with depth charges." ALSO noteworthy as to evasion times: " Missiles were fired in pairs with an interval of either 0.1 or 0.2 seconds between pairs. The order was such that the missiles with the highest trajectories were fired first while those with the flattest trajectories were fired last. This allowed all missiles to hit the water at about the same time. Reload time was 3 minutes. When aimed to impact at 200 yards (180 m) from the firing ship, it took about 17 seconds from the time the missiles were fired until they sank to a depth of 200 feet (61 m) and 34 seconds to reach a depth of 600 feet (183 m). "HASTA LA VIS........:dead:" (no verbal funker to kaluen to helmsman command sequence can conceivably cope with 17-34 seconds-cut in half from the splashpoint!) Some of the advantages of this weapon were that 1) They only exploded if they hit something, which meant that the firing ship could more quickly make follow-on attacks if the previous attack was unsuccessful; 2) as unsuccessful attacks did not disturb the water, which meant that ASDIC/Sonar performance was not affected; and 3) the projectiles had a higher sinking rate than conventional depth charges which again sped up the time that it took to make follow-on attacks. " Required viewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kAj9syecU0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kAj9syecU0) Bottom Line: to the 'expensive problem' on the battlefield-uboats-there came a cheap...and very efficient and lethal solution.

[sublynx]

You're right about that. The hydrophone would be of little use in detecting the pattern. Maybe one projectile but no more. How about the launch sound then? How much noise would the launching of the projectiles make? Would that have been heard in the boat - only 200 meters away but with a mass of water between, and the sounds of the engines covering some noise?

[Marcello]

You're right about that. The hydrophone would be of little use in detecting the pattern. Maybe one projectile but no more. How about the launch sound then? How much noise would the launching of the projectiles make? Would that have been heard in the boat - only 200 meters away but with a mass of water between, and the sounds of the engines covering some noise?

Probably not much, I can't find footage with actual sound but I suspect it might not be much louder than a Bofors letting loose. In a combat situation with ASDIC hammering away, multiple engine noises...

[Torplexed]

Probably not much, I can't find footage with actual sound but I suspect it might not be much louder than a Bofors letting loose. In a combat situation with ASDIC hammering away, multiple engine noises...

Probably not much louder than the K and Y gun depth charge launchers which were in routine use as well.

[Aktungbby]

YIPES! U-666, My avatar!! lost with all hands 2/10/44 mysteriously, but- in a postwar assessment, to HMS Fencer depthcharges- was participating in Wolfpack IGEL: http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol05/tnm_5_1_33-43.pdf (http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol05/tnm_5_1_33-43.pdf) at the time...actually one of Doenitz's bigger failures. Igel in German is Hedgehog! No wonder I'm intrigued by the topic!:hmmm: :shifty: :dead:

[Rambler241]

Some notes on ASW weapons here (http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Tech-Anti-submarine%20Weapons.htm). Squid looks a lot more deadly in practice - the bit I don't like is

Ships with one mounting produced a triangular pattern with 120 foot sides and those with two mountings an additional pattern at a lower depth - hopefully with the target submarine between the two layers.

[Marcello]

Squid was fitted to about 70 ships during WW2. Hedgehog was probably carried by hundreds towards the end of the war.

[UKönig]

And the reason they had two layers to catch the sub in between is that with the blast radius and water pressure would crush the U-boat like a beer can. Certain kill. And shots that hit the boat from underneath do more damage because that's where the greatest concentration of valves, plugs, and flanges can be found. Very sinister...

[nikimcbee]

I'm not sure how much a passive listener on a uboat could pick up in time to permit his skipper to evade in a hedgehog 'encirclement'...practically none. Here is a fact I did not know or even consider beforehand: "The contact-fused bombs were filled with 32 pounds of Torpex – if one bomb hit the target it exploded and the rest of the pattern detonated too, greatly increasing the likelihood of a successful attack compared with depth charges." ALSO noteworthy as to evasion times: " Missiles were fired in pairs with an interval of either 0.1 or 0.2 seconds between pairs. The order was such that the missiles with the highest trajectories were fired first while those with the flattest trajectories were fired last. This allowed all missiles to hit the water at about the same time. Reload time was 3 minutes. When aimed to impact at 200 yards (180 m) from the firing ship, it took about 17 seconds from the time the missiles were fired until they sank to a depth of 200 feet (61 m) and 34 seconds to reach a depth of 600 feet (183 m). "HASTA LA VIS........:dead:" (no verbal funker to kaluen to helmsman command sequence can conceivably cope with 17-34 seconds-cut in half from the splashpoint!) Some of the advantages of this weapon were that 1) They only exploded if they hit something, which meant that the firing ship could more quickly make follow-on attacks if the previous attack was unsuccessful; 2) as unsuccessful attacks did not disturb the water, which meant that ASDIC/Sonar performance was not affected; and 3) the projectiles had a higher sinking rate than conventional depth charges which again sped up the time that it took to make follow-on attacks. " Required viewing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kAj9syecU0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kAj9syecU0) Bottom Line: to the 'expensive problem' on the battlefield-uboats-there came a cheap...and very efficient and lethal solution.


Great video.:/\\k: