Tips on stalking the Diesels? [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

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Stewy1

03-22-15, 04:41 PM

FPSchazly

03-22-15, 04:56 PM

I believe the correct term would be off his port quarter.

In my experience, diesel/electrics are reaallly quiet. In stock DW, I've gotten within 2 or 3 nautical miles of a Kilo without even knowing it. I was in a Seawolf and I didn't see anything on my sonar. If you're pretty confident it's only you and the Kilo out there, you may want to try active search. But even then, it's always worrisome to give away your position if you don't have to. It's tricky for sure.

Stewy1

03-22-15, 05:30 PM

Thanks FPSchazly for that info - I've enjoyed your tutorials on YouTube too!:salute:

ReallyDedPoet

03-22-15, 05:31 PM

Welcome to SUBSIM Stew :sunny:

Stewy1

03-24-15, 05:06 AM

Thanks for the kind welcomes, guys - though this isn't my first time on SubSim (Could the (kind) mods merge me with the Stewy username?)

I had a bit more luck tracking (and killing) the Xia SSBN in the Trafalgar, HMS Tireless, off the West Australian coast. A good couple hours of stalking, going up and down across layers and checking the different arrays to find him.

Nukes vs. Nukes is a little easier than Nuke vs. Diesels!

DW is still a great game, 9 years on! (and the Modders of DWX/RA have made it an excellent game!)

Cheers guys
Stew

adrians69

03-24-15, 02:35 PM

Hinrich Schwab

03-25-15, 10:34 PM

Hi everyone,

I know this has been covered many times before - but wasn't sure where to look.

What are your tips to stalking diesel boats?

I was in a Flt1 688 boat (3kts at 800ft - between Sri Lanka and India), looking for a Pakistani Agosta. Using the "show truth" mode (it was a 4 hour game!), I got to about 5-6 miles away - off its rear-left (sorry, not sure of the nautical terms) but, switching "show truth off:, Sonar picked up nothing. I was on the same thermal layer, about 500ft below him.

Next thing, it snapped off 4 torpedoes and I had to shoot and bolt (luckily I won the day!)

Questions are, can a 688 pick up a diesel-electric going at 3kts - or is it nearly impossible?

Do you have any tips to detect quiet contacts?

Thanks guys!
Stew

Diesel boats are very hard to pick up, but not impossible. You may get some questionable sound readings from sonar, but it will rarely be enough to classify one and auto-crew is pretty useless in detecting diesels. The best method I have is to take a questionable signal and occasionally use my HF active sonar intermittently to see if I pick anything up. HF has a short range, but if you are close enough, it will bust out a Kilo just as well as a nuke boat and unlike the standard active MF sonar, you do not immediately give your position away when you use it.

Another thing about Kilos is the fact that the absence of a towed array gives them a nice baffle to hide behind. Get behind one and you can go at flank and fire all tubes and he won't know unless he does a "Crazy Ivan" or until the torpedoes hit. The problem is that there is enough traffic to make this somewhat prohibitive. The Kilo may not hear you, but his buddies will.

One needs to be patient and implacable when dealing with Kilos. The big thing is getting close enough to use HF Sonar to confirm his presence.

Stewy1

04-08-15, 06:23 AM

Hinrich Schwab

04-08-15, 09:47 AM

Thanks for the tips, guys. Just as an addon question - how do you guys track boomers for long periods?

I "intercepted" a Typhoon as it was transiting north at 3-4 knots - but every time I manoeuvred to get behind it/use all of the sonar arrays, it slowly got away from me - managed to track it for about 2 hours, but then lost contact...

Are Typhoons "deaf" to their sterns? Could I have sped up to catch it, then slowed again? I'm always worried about copping a Shkval - being detected means being dead with those things!

Cheers
Stew

Typhoons have towed arrays, so there is no baffle to hide behind. There is also no real reason to worry about Shkvals. I have never seen the AI fire one. These seem to be more of a human player tool/threat than anything. As far as losing the Typhoon, was there a thermal layer near the current depth of your track? If so, that is probably where you lost him. If your towed array is deployed too far out, it will dip below a thermal layer when you move at very slow speeds. Likewise, if the Typhoon transitioned the layer and you have all sensors on one side of the layer, you will eventually lose him or only maintain intermittent contact.

Nippelspanner

04-08-15, 11:15 AM

Typhoons have towed arrays, so there is no baffle to hide behind.
No, they don't.
The Typhoon class only has a hull sonar, under the torpedo room.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems they do have a towed array. First time I stumbled upon this.Maybe the older ones didn't have them, not sure.
Edit2: As I suspected, only TK17 (Archangelsk) and TK20 (Severstal') have the 'Pelamida' towed array.

It would be interesting to know if Dangerous Waters makes a difference there.
From what I remember, the Severstal' doesn't have a towed array in the game but I'm not completely sure.

FPSchazly

04-08-15, 11:57 AM

On the topic of Shkvals, you should definitely worry about those. I've been sunk, or at least hit, by quite a few AI Akulas launching Shkvals at me. Not sure if the Typhoon carries Shkvals, though.

I'm also not sure how the game models AI sonar. Do they explicitly model them using a towed? Or is it just like "handicapped" so the AI has further detection ranges on the other arays?

Hinrich Schwab

04-08-15, 04:17 PM

No, they don't.
The Typhoon class only has a hull sonar, under the torpedo room.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems they do have a towed array. First time I stumbled upon this.Maybe the older ones didn't have them, not sure.
Edit2: As I suspected, only TK17 (Archangelsk) and TK20 (Severstal') have the 'Pelamida' towed array.

It would be interesting to know if Dangerous Waters makes a difference there.
From what I remember, the Severstal' doesn't have a towed array in the game but I'm not completely sure.

I have LWAMI installed. Let me double check to see exactly what the Typhoons have in that mod.

EDIT: Hmm...in LWAMI, none of the Typhoons have a towed array.

banryu79

04-09-15, 03:41 AM

I have LWAMI installed. Let me double check to see exactly what the Typhoons have in that mod.

EDIT: Hmm...in LWAMI, none of the Typhoons have a towed array.
I have LWAMI (v 3.11) installed too.

Did you read that from the database directly? Because I can't (I haven't the editor for the database) but... In the "Platform Reference Guide for LWAMI 3.11", an xls file supplied with the mod, under the Russia section, it says that Typhoons are equipped with a TA and they do not carry the Shkval (only Oscars, Akulas, Victors, Alfas and Ladas could be equipped with Shkvals).

I'd like to clarify these points... :hmmm:

EDIT: Also, in LWAMI 3.11 the range of the MAD detonator on Shkval is equal to 250 meters insted of the 500 meters in std DW. This, plus the fact that in LWAMI, AI submarines engages you much sooner than in std DW (because in std DW they first have to completly ID you where in LWAMI is no more the case) means that a an AI launched Shkval against you is "fatal" only if the AI platform firing it has a solid TMA solution on you.

I remeber that in a mission while on Russian (hostile, I was in a 688i) waters I was detected and sunk by a Victor that fired on me. He neeed to fire 3 torpedoes and only the 3rd striked (they all was SUBROC). But while watching the replay with Truth On I was surprised to discover that I was detected and fired upon by another Russian sub that was around the general location of the Victor and that I was obliviuos about (I'm not sure but IIRC he was an Akula). He fired something like 3 or 4 shkval, one at time, and he should have got a real bad solution on me because the Shkval all missed passing far from my position (about 1 or 2 nm on my sides).

But that was very scary witnessing this things running like hell across the map!
If they are well aimed you are already dead, like a Kenshiro victim, lol!

Hinrich Schwab

04-09-15, 09:02 AM

I have LWAMI (v 3.11) installed too.

Did you read that from the database directly? Because I can't (I haven't the editor for the database) but... In the "Platform Reference Guide for LWAMI 3.11", an xls file supplied with the mod, under the Russia section, it says that Typhoons are equipped with a TA and they do not carry the Shkval (only Oscars, Akulas, Victors, Alfas and Ladas could be equipped with Shkvals).

I'd like to clarify these points... :hmmm:

Yes, I read the Objects.eod database. The DWEdit tool comes with LWAMI. It is in he /LAMI_Mod/FileTools directory. I also stand corrected as I misread one of the database entries. :o:doh::haha: They do have towed arrays. However, there are only three Typhoons; Dmitri Donskoy, Arkhangelsk and Severstal'

EDIT: Also, in LWAMI 3.11 the range of the MAD detonator on Shkval is equal to 250 meters insted of the 500 meters in std DW. This, plus the fact that in LWAMI, AI submarines engages you much sooner than in std DW (because in std DW they first have to completly ID you where in LWAMI is no more the case) means that a an AI launched Shkval against you is "fatal" only if the AI platform firing it has a solid TMA solution on you.

I remeber that in a mission while on Russian (hostile, I was in a 688i) waters I was detected and sunk by a Victor that fired on me. He neeed to fire 3 torpedoes and only the 3rd striked (they all was SUBROC). But while watching the replay with Truth On I was surprised to discover that I was detected and fired upon by another Russian sub that was around the general location of the Victor and that I was obliviuos about (I'm not sure but IIRC he was an Akula). He fired something like 3 or 4 shkval, one at time, and he should have got a real bad solution on me because the Shkval all missed passing far from my position (about 1 or 2 nm on my sides).

But that was very scary witnessing this things running like hell across the map!
If they are well aimed you are already dead, like a Kenshiro victim, lol!

In LWAMI, any American sub going faster than 3 knots will be busted by Russian sensors. Also, firing at you without a good solution kind of makes sense, from an alternate line of thinking since the AI knows which units are their own. It is something like, "That contact shouldn't be there. Kill it."

I have been fortunate to never have a Shkval come after me. The only possible counter I can see in dealing with them is to remember that they are unguided and hope one is deep enough and the torpedo is far enough away that one can blow the ballast at flank speed and squeak by. It is nigh impossible to dodge a 200-knot torpedo. You would have to be at its max range to even try a course change to avoid it without a fast depth change. Its maximum range is 6NM and it needs the first mile to arm. It takes 20 seconds to reach arming distance and 1 minute, 40 seconds to make the 6NM run. That is a very small window to try and get out of the way.

banryu79

04-09-15, 10:14 AM

It takes 20 seconds to reach arming distance and 1 minute, 40 seconds to make the 6NM run. That is a very small window to try and get out of the way.
Well, since in LWAMI it's MAD detonator has only a 250 m. range you have about 1 and half a minute to clear that space (with a movement normal to the Shkval vector)... Maybe still quite feasible at flank speed if you keep your head (but then you have made a lot of noise in the region and more evil will arrive)...

In LWAMI, any American sub going faster than 3 knots will be busted by Russian sensors.
Well, I don't think is so simple... you sill have to consider the tactical situation, ranges in play, SSP, sensors and baffle areas as well as initial intelligence for the platforms and relative speeds...

Mike Abberton

04-09-15, 12:11 PM

Stewy1,

Another recommendation, keep checking your narrowband. You'll see most contacts, even diesels, in the narrowband a long time before you'll see them on the broadband. You may not be able to tell what they are, but if you're in an LA, most things with a 50 Hz frequency are bad for you (except maybe European allies you hopefully already know about).

Mike

Hinrich Schwab

04-09-15, 04:05 PM

Well, I don't think is so simple... you sill have to consider the tactical situation, ranges in play, SSP, sensors and baffle areas as well as initial intelligence for the platforms and relative speeds...

I have DW w/LWAMI on multiple computers here at home. I tested the platforms in multiplayer to get an idea of what their capabilities are and for the American subs, cruising over 3 Knots is rolling dice in terms of detection and anything over 5 is almost guaranteed. The Petropavlosk campaign mission proves that. Anyone who hasn't modified that mission to reduce the American subs to 3 knots will trip the counterdetcted trigger almost instantly. In the instances I have not seen the instant trip, it usually occurs within two minutes of headway.

Nippelspanner

04-09-15, 04:34 PM

Anyone who hasn't modified that mission to reduce the American subs to 3 knots will trip the counterdetcted trigger almost instantly. In the instances I have not seen the instant trip, it usually occurs within two minutes of headway.
Yeah that's true.

banryu79

04-10-15, 02:31 AM

I have DW w/LWAMI on multiple computers here at home. I tested the platforms in multiplayer to get an idea of what their capabilities are and for the American subs, cruising over 3 Knots is rolling dice in terms of detection and anything over 5 is almost guaranteed. The Petropavlosk campaign mission proves that. Anyone who hasn't modified that mission to reduce the American subs to 3 knots will trip the counterdetcted trigger almost instantly. In the instances I have not seen the instant trip, it usually occurs within two minutes of headway.
Hey, that's intresting testing man! :)

Yes, I know the 3 knots "critical limit" in LWAMI, things are harder now.
For me usually is not a major problem unitl you start needing both speed and complete stealth-ness (and well, yes, it happens more than not that I need them both, lol).

The only thing that it is really disturbing for me is the fact that to keep the TA straight and level with ownship (in order to listen with the TA on the same side of the layer and/or keep it straight for achieving precise bearing with it) you need to make turns for at least 6 knots (this with the full deployed TA, I do not know if it still true for only 1/3 of the array...) The same 6 knots are useful even when changing course for starting a new TMA leg; that 6 konts will shorten both the time need to complete the turn and the time to straight the TA again...

What you think about that?

FPSchazly

04-10-15, 06:22 AM

Hey, that's intresting testing man! :)

Yes, I know the 3 knots "critical limit" in LWAMI, things are harder now.
For me usually is not a major problem unitl you start needing both speed and complete stealth-ness (and well, yes, it happens more than not that I need them both, lol).

The only thing that it is really disturbing for me is the fact that to keep the TA straight and level with ownship (in order to listen with the TA on the same side of the layer and/or keep it straight for achieving precise bearing with it) you need to make turns for at least 6 knots (this with the full deployed TA, I do not know if it still true for only 1/3 of the array...) The same 6 knots are useful even when changing course for starting a new TMA leg; that 6 konts will shorten both the time need to complete the turn and the time to straight the TA again...

What you think about that?

I dread making solutions with the towed. I like it for situations like, "Oh, there's someone over there, maybe I could head that way." But it really is so imprecise. Maybe consider going slightly faster for a short amount of time until your towed straightens.

banryu79

04-10-15, 08:24 AM

I dread making solutions on the TMA.
I hope you are speaking about TMA solutions that involves the TA, and not TMA solutions in general because in the latter case the question raise spontaneosly: If not in the TMA station where the hell are you going to make them, sir? :)
Wait... Don't tell me... Bearing triangulations on the Nav Map? :hmmm:

FPSchazly

04-10-15, 03:30 PM

I hope you are speaking about TMA solutions that involves the TA, and not TMA solutions in general because in the latter case the question raise spontaneosly: If not in the TMA station where the hell are you going to make them, sir? :)
Wait... Don't tell me... Bearing triangulations on the Nav Map? :hmmm:

Towed, indeed lol

banryu79

04-11-15, 01:52 AM

Yes, the TA feels like the worst best sensor you got... Well, at least it covers the stern baffles of the other sensors...
The fact is that with a straight and level (and 2/3 deployed) TA picking up a contact that is also been tracked on the bow/spherical you got a good triangulation of his position... If you can afford the noise, of course.
Lots of compromises...

Nukesub

04-11-15, 10:52 AM

So, from reading this post, I should never go above 3 kts if I have LWAMI installed?! Whats the point of all the superior quieting tech we have?!

banryu79

04-11-15, 11:21 AM

So, from reading this post, I should never go above 3 kts if I have LWAMI installed?! Whats the point of all the superior quieting tech we have?!
It's not so simple, counter detection is not an automatic thing, triggered just by speed alone... Do not misread the posts.
You have to be aware only about the facts that while playing stock campaign and/or campaigns/missions not designed for Lwami you should set your initial speed at 3 knots, better if you open the mission in the mission editor and set there the initial speed...

banryu79

04-11-15, 11:23 AM

And please, if you are really interested in Lwami just RTM, you can find there all the explanation you need to understand the rational behind all these.

Nukesub

04-11-15, 11:31 AM

And please, if you are really interested in Lwami just RTM, you can find there all the explanation you need to understand the rational behind all these.

Will do, thank you banryu!

:Kaleun_Salute:

Kapitan

04-11-15, 04:25 PM

Simple too stalk a diesel..........use the FFG I can safely say I have put many to bed using both passive and active buoys

Hinrich Schwab

04-12-15, 12:08 PM

Simple too stalk a diesel..........use the FFG I can safely say I have put many to bed using both passive and active buoys

True, but that doesn't address the difficulty of performing the same task in another sub or in a mission where the FFG is not available. The FFG and its Seahawks blanketing the area with sonobuoys and banging around with MAD gear make detecting diesels, or any sub for that matter, somewhat pedestrian.

Hinrich Schwab

04-12-15, 12:18 PM

The only thing that it is really disturbing for me is the fact that to keep the TA straight and level with ownship (in order to listen with the TA on the same side of the layer and/or keep it straight for achieving precise bearing with it) you need to make turns for at least 6 knots (this with the full deployed TA, I do not know if it still true for only 1/3 of the array...) The same 6 knots are useful even when changing course for starting a new TMA leg; that 6 konts will shorten both the time need to complete the turn and the time to straight the TA again...

What you think about that?

First of all, if I have to maintain a silent speed, I never pay out the TA its entire length. The slow speed will be a detriment in terms of detection because the array will drop down and it will take too long to update after a turn. Likewise, I swap from Starboard to Port array at slower speed and this cleans up some solutions for me.

speed150mph

04-22-15, 03:05 PM

Simple too stalk a diesel..........use the FFG I can safely say I have put many to bed using both passive and active buoys

Nice thing about frigates however is they are generally nice and noisy, and I know exactly where you are the whole time you are looking for me, and if im creeping at less then 5 knots, you either need to have an active buoy close enough to detect me, or land a passive right on me to hear me. Needless to say depending at what range we are fighting at, a competent captain should have no problem getting into a range where he can launch an ssm and wake homing torpedo barrage at you. then while your sprinting away, im already going to flank speed and changing my position before your seahawks get there or you slow back down to usable sonar speed. ;)

But yeah, back to the topic at hand, diesel boats at low speed are very hard to detect, even impossible at times passively. If you believe a diesel boat is in the area, stay below 3 knots, and stay close to the layer so you can jump above and below it easily. If time is your ally, be patient and wait for him to do something, if its time critical, or its obvious he is just going to sit there, you have to be ready for a very fast series of commands.

1.ready your torps for either snap shot or be ready to do a quick solution. if you know a general bearing or have a rough solution already plotted, use these as a reference. flood and equalize tubes but don't open doors yet as that will give you away.
these next ones are cruicial to be quick.
2.go to active sonar and set to continuous ping high gain and hammer him. Find him, lock him, and his range. get his exact location.
3.quickly finalize your torp settings and open outter doors, and launch your fish at him.
4. go to flank, come about, drop a passive and an active countermeasure in your old position, reload countermeasures, go deep. general run for your life procedure before he fires back.

I will generally run a few km, turn 90 degrees and then stop and listen, you got an active and passive decoy at the position he detected you and that's where is torp should be going. don't give a passive torp another target to chase unless its obvious its coming for you, then you run again.

that's what I do anyways and I do have success with it, but the key to it is being quick, and know exactly what your going to do and where your going to go well in advance. good luck

Stewy1

05-05-15, 06:13 AM

p7p8

05-06-15, 11:50 AM

Nice thing about frigates however is they are generally nice and noisy, and I know exactly where you are the whole time you are looking for me, and if im creeping at less then 5 knots, you either need to have an active buoy close enough to detect me, or land a passive right on me to hear me. Needless to say depending at what range we are fighting at, a competent captain should have no problem getting into a range where he can launch an ssm and wake homing torpedo barrage at you. then while your sprinting away, im already going to flank speed and changing my position before your seahawks get there or you slow back down to usable sonar speed. ;)

You probably play only against AI or very poor FFG player. OHP at 6-9 kts and EMCON are also very quiet. Towed array SQR-19 is very sensitive till 18 kts and FFG-7 aren't blind at flank speed (sonobuoys) like all submarines.

Stewy1

05-07-15, 05:12 AM

Thanks Speed150 - that helps a lot!

I just got belted by a Libyan Foxtrot just north of Tripoli (doing a kind of 2011 Odyssey Dawn scenario)

I was in a Flt II 688 - creeping (zig-zagging) along at 4 kts - trying to find him - next thing there are torpedos in the water!

Show Truth had him at much less than a mile - I never heard a thing!

Even though they're 1950s technology - it's wrong to underestimate the SSKs! (I thought it'd be a turkey shoot!)

Back to the drawing board!

Well, I cracked it, lads - retried the mission - this time at 2 kts...That Foxtrot was toast! :arrgh!:

I got a Xia in an Ohio with the same technique (both times, the enemy sub was too busy dealing with fish in the water to shoot at me - or he never heard me) - it seems speed is the key!:salute:

I read in a Navy paper on the net that ASW stands for Awfully Slow Warfare :)