How are we defining noob?

[wutzthedeal]

Hey guys. I'm ex-USAF and know nothing about what happens underwater. I've been searching YouTube and this forum and I think I might need some real hand-holding here for SH4.

The only concept I've even begun to understand about SH4 is intercepting. I watch these videos and read these guides and they say things like, "Then, get your range," or they pop out a compass or protractor and my thoughts are, "Wait, wait, and wait. Hold on. What are we doing here?" While I generally trust anybody named Werner when it comes to naval advice, I couldn't get his videos to load. If sub sim knowledge was on a 1 to 100 scale with 100 representing somebody who knows absolutely everything, I'm like a 3. The videos and guides I'm seeing seem to be starting around 15 or above. Go easy on me; I was an English major and math is not my friend. All help is appreciated! Where would you send an uber-noob? It was a miracle that I got through the convoy mission in sub school on the 2nd try because I had no effing idea what I was doing. Last time I played a sub sim was like 1996 on an old Commodore and all I remember is Russians and wired Mark torpedoes.

[Spraug]

First of all, hi there.

Being quite new to this too, I can tell you, you can learn fast and you've come to the right forum.

The most important thing is not to get math right, but to have fun playing. :har: Personally, I would first play a career with only low/medium difficulty to learn about the simulated environment: what's it like "at sea"? How do convoys work? How do I approach them? Where do I find targets? How do escorts "think" and react? etc. Play with map contacts on and TDC (the targeting "computer") on automatic and send a couple of ships to the bottom. :arrgh!: Then you'll understand the videos so much better, because you have context. :ping:

The TDC is complex, but not really difficult :know: and it mainly does two things for you:
a) I you get at least two measurements on a target ship, it can calculate speed for you (very useful, but not 100% accurate, so get as many measurements as you can - well, several, not unlimited),
b) The position keeper will predict enemy movement for you (so long as the target does not change course), giving you firing solutions for your torpedoes.

Beyond that there are Dick O'Kane, sonar, radar, vectoring and half a bazillion other creative ways that push the system far beyond what it was designed for, which will allow you faster and very accurate attacks under diverse conditions.

Everybody (except maybe the actual submariners that learned everything in real-life) learned it step by step, so just take your time and it will come all by itself (mostly). :yeah:

Just my two cents, the experts here will put it more accurately.

[depthtok33l]

Welcome to the forums! I'm that guy from YouTube :D.

[wutzthedeal]

Great responses, thank you. Hey, I have really enjoyed these YouTube vids (especially some of the awkward humor), but for me, it's like getting into verb conjugation on the first day of an introductory French class. I'm starting to wonder if this stuff can actually be dumbed-down enough for me to find the first few rungs of the ladder! PS I know why they have to do psych. profiles on potential submariners now. Takes a special character imo.

[Sailor Steve]

Welcome aboard! :sunny:

As Spraug suggested, the best thing you can do right now is play in the easiest mode. It does the targeting automagically; all you have to do is make sure the little arrow is green. I mostly play SH3, and in that one they had an in-between mode, in which you had it set for Manual Targeting but your 1st Mate did all the info gathering for you, which made it easy but also made it feel real.

Unfortunately SH4 does away with that, so you're stuck with it either being very easy or very hard. My math skills are pretty much non-existent, as are my gathering skills, so after almost eight years I still play on the easy mode.

All that said, there are people here who are very good at it. Expect help soon.

[Spraug]

… they had an in-between mode, in which you had it set for Manual Targeting but your 1st Mate did all the info gathering for you, which made it easy but also made it feel real …

Now that's something I'd like in SH4, too. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist. Maybe someone can program a new SH? Ubisoft maybe? :arrgh!:

Anyway. Start with easy. Then, when you go for manual TDC, leave the map contacts on. That way you can check all your measurements and get a better feeling for them.

Bye the way, the math is not that difficult if I'm not mistaken. Your attack angle is easily calculable as:

alpha = arcsin {(a*sin gamma)/(a^2+b^2-2*a*b*cos gamma)}, where:
a = targets speed,
b = torpedo speed,
gamma = 180°-Angle on Bow.

And believe me: NOBODY does that calculation! Really nobody. You can play this game without ANY math and have a challenge and fun at the same time. Just get used to it first, then you start fiddling with the gritty stuff and eventually with mods.

[fireftr18]

Welcome aboard wutzthedeal!
:Kaleun_Salute:
Always good to get some new people to harass, err, I mean help.
Some good advice from Spraug.
I tell people to make extreme use of the first tutorial. Use it to practice diving, finding targets, everything you will need to do. Use it to learn the controls.
Then, do a campaign for a practice as Spraug wrote.
As you get more comfortable, then add mods and experiment with them.
As far as manual targeting/auto targeting, I don't like the manual targeting. To me, it's an exercise in tedium.

Now go wax the conning tower.

[Aktungbby]

wutzthedeal! :Kaleun_Salute:

[Spraug]

… Your attack angle is easily calculable as:

alpha = arcsin {(a*sin gamma)/(a^2+b^2-2*a*b*cos gamma)}, where:
a = targets speed,
b = torpedo speed,
gamma = 180°-Angle on Bow.

Actually, I failed to mention, that that only works if your boat is already pointed at the impact point. If the torpedo also has to manoeuvre, it gets INTERESTING. That is beyond the math anybody could do quickly, on the fly while the target moves.

And gamma is AoB at impact point.

[CapnZero]

Glad to see a newer player than I joining the group!

You should be able to find a video called Legions SH4 Noob Guide. It is quite good and about 20 minutes in length covering exactly that subject.

:up:




Hey guys. I'm ex-USAF and know nothing about what happens underwater. I've been searching YouTube and this forum and I think I might need some real hand-holding here for SH4.

The only concept I've even begun to understand about SH4 is intercepting. I watch these videos and read these guides and they say things like, "Then, get your range," or they pop out a compass or protractor and my thoughts are, "Wait, wait, and wait. Hold on. What are we doing here?" While I generally trust anybody named Werner when it comes to naval advice, I couldn't get his videos to load. If sub sim knowledge was on a 1 to 100 scale with 100 representing somebody who knows absolutely everything, I'm like a 3. The videos and guides I'm seeing seem to be starting around 15 or above. Go easy on me; I was an English major and math is not my friend. All help is appreciated! Where would you send an uber-noob? It was a miracle that I got through the convoy mission in sub school on the 2nd try because I had no effing idea what I was doing. Last time I played a sub sim was like 1996 on an old Commodore and all I remember is Russians and wired Mark torpedoes.

[Aktungbby]

CapnZero! :Kaleun_Salute:

[wutzthedeal]

Thank you all for the warm welcome. Now I have hope; I can just play on easy settings. That I can do. I'm watching the Noob guide (you won't believe this but it's true) for the third time now, trying to fully understand everything. One thing I gotta give sub sim people and I'll pat myself on the back for a second, too, is the patience required. Sub sims and those that require similar patience (realistic sniper games, hitman games, etc.) separate the men from the boys. Anyway I went ahead and started the career mode and am heading across the Pacific. Who the hell puts an airman in a submarine? Thank you computers and software.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim CapnZero :sunny:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome wutzthedeal :sunny:

[captcrane]

Ahoy wutzthedeal I too am a beginner at this game. There is a lot of info here and and things can get confusing. I went from automatic to manual targeting. Here is a couple of things that helped me understanding why I kept missing with my torpedos. 1st after I feed course speed and range and started the TDC I looked at the attack map and that shows the course of the torpedo and how accurate your entries in relation to your target. Another thing I did in the beginning is I would save the game at the point where I was about to attack a convoy or ship that helped me more than "school" to practice approaches and try different things. For me the best attack is at a 90 degree angle then try to get in the middle of a convoy where it becomes a free for all Hope this helps

[Captain Dave]

Wutzthedeal, also an ex USAF in a sub. Welcome aboard.

[Crannogman]

As a relative noob myself, who's afraid of the TDC, I feel your pain. I did my first career patrol on easy, then set it to medium when I got back to Pearl because it was just too much.
My advice, at least at first, is to avoid convoys. You can usually find lone or pairs of cargo ships, travelling unescorted, without too much difficulty. There seems to be a shipping lane for such between Japan and the Marshalls, just a few miles east of the Marianas. Usually the first thing you'll get is a sonar contact; on your map (which is where your screen should be when cruising), you'll see a black line (representing the sonar contact) that connects your sub to the other ship. Immediately turn time compression to x1, zoom in on the far end of the black line, and mark it with the black pencil. Set your boat's speed to 1/3 and wait; the black line will move with the (enemy?) ship, and after it moves a reasonable distance mark the tip again.
Now you can use his two positions to plot his course. Using the ruler tool, start at your first pencil mark (x) and draw a line throught second x and several miles beyond; this should be a pretty reliable prediction of his course. Next I use the compass tool to draw a 1-nautical-mile radius circle centered one the first mark, and an identical circle at the other end of the plotted course; I try to make the radius line perpendicular to the plotted enemy course. Next I draw another line (using the ruler tool) connecting the two radius line tips; the result should be a line parallel to the enemy/target's course, and 1 nm (2000 yards) apart. I consider ths second line my firing line. I guesstimate the direction from my sub to the far end of my firing line (in the direction the target is moving) click that on the direction wheel (e.g NE on the middle of the 3 control circles in the lower right of the screen, and set my speed to full ahead on the left of the 3 control circles.
Use low time compression, and adjust your direction accordingly to steer your sub to the firing line. I also keep an eye on the sonar contact line to see if the target is deviating from my plotted course; often he will be a little to one side or the other, but hopefully not too far. When I get my boat close to the firing line (near the intersection of the radius line, circle and firing line I drew earlier), I turn my sub so it is parallel to the radius line, and thus perpedicular to the firing and course lines. I slow to 1/3 and go to periscope depth, then stop my engine and wait. Usually I've arrived well before the target. I watch the map and wait for the sonar contact line to be almost directly in front of my boat (ie almost parallel to the radius line I drew earlier); I'll usually pop the periscope up a fee times as he approaches to check what and where he really is. At this time, I should be pretty close to perfect position to fire.

Once you get used to plotting enemy ship courses and racing on the surface to get ahead, you can start doing the same for convoys. But lone, unescorted merchants make for good plotting (and torpedoing) practice.
You can adjust your firing line distance as circumstances dictate. You'll want to be closer for faster or zig-zagging targets (you can usually tell these by watching the sonar contact line), or in poor visibilty (storms, fog; 2000m is usually adequate on a clear night). Conversely, I'll shoot from farther if there are escorts (so I can get farther from the firing point before they come looking) or if I can't get closer due to the target's relative position/speed).

I hope this helps you use the map to figure out where a contact is going and where to need to go to sink it

[fireftr18]

Thank you all for the warm welcome. Now I have hope; I can just play on easy settings. That I can do. I'm watching the Noob guide (you won't believe this but it's true) for the third time now, trying to fully understand everything. One thing I gotta give sub sim people and I'll pat myself on the back for a second, too, is the patience required. Sub sims and those that require similar patience (realistic sniper games, hitman games, etc.) separate the men from the boys. Anyway I went ahead and started the career mode and am heading across the Pacific. Who the hell puts an airman in a submarine? Thank you computers and software.

I can very easily believe you watched it three or more times. There is a lot of information, and a lot to learn. There is a large learning curve, but once you learn it, it's great.

[CapnZero]

Thanks to those who bid me welcome.

Whether we were zoomies, grunts, pounders, or civvies, I guess we are all skwids now!
:D

[wutzthedeal]

Excellent post Crannogman; you were reading my mind. That is what I needed to see written down. I'll use that with a fourth run-through of the Noob vid. I have sunk two individual merchant ships. One took 5 torpedoes, and one only took 2 (or perhaps one would have worked if I had waited around because it must have struck something to make secondary explosions; it was in really bad shape but I launched another anyway). Those two patrols with all their contacts and random aircraft had me buzzin' about, but I'm starting to understand this some. One mistake I am making is predicting an accurate course for the target. I think they're moving way faster than I thought they would be because when I get there, nothing is there. But that's just going to require more reading and videos.

Yep, no matter what branch we were in, we're in the Navy now! I have a decent amount of experience with flight and flight combat sims (I was just a calibrations guy in the AF) and some of those missions can take some real patience, too, so I already had the patience in place. What a freakin' fun game this is. I could play SH4 for years to come, and $6 on Steam is no joke! (I would play the others but I just hate being German anything... got a thing I haven't gotten over in my thinking yet).

[Spraug]

Who the hell puts an airman in a submarine?

Well, the IJN - especially the air arm - did that to quite a few pilots, if only for a limited period of time. Ask G.W.Bush sen. :arrgh!:

[Crannogman]

One mistake I am making is predicting an accurate course for the target. I think they're moving way faster than I thought they would be because when I get there, nothing is there. But that's just going to require more reading and videos.

Are you trying to chase down the convoys and task forces that pop up on your map as contact reports every now and then? I haven't tried for those unless they pop up coming towards my and within like 50 nm; otherwise, it's tough to figure their course because you never get frequent-enough reports to figure a reliable course. But you can mark their speed.
Often I will draw a line in their direction of travel; if it says they're making 9 kts, I draw one 9nm long. Then I mark a black pencil X at that 9nm spot. Then I use the ruler to pick-up and continue the line ahead another 9nm, and drop it again. This way you can plot out their predicted positions several hours into the future. You can then use the ruler or compass to figure the hortest distance from you to their predicted course; divided by 18, this will tell you how long it will take you to intercept them; ideally you can bet them there by comfortable margin, say a couple hours. I then turn and go back down that line towards thhe contact report, maybe a thousand yards to one side or the other, at a slower speed.
I don't draw a firing line for a map contact, because it's too hard to make a good bearing from that one point. Once I make sonar contact, I start making new pencil marks to plot a truer course prediction. If it's a convoy or task force, watch because more sonar lines will pop-up quickly and you want to make sure you're marking the same contact. If they're coming right at me, I'll move off to the side.
If I travel down that line all the way to the contact report without finding anything, I call it a wash and move on. There's always more fish in the sea. Sometimes you'll get a contact report for a single ship; if they aren't really close (and really recent) I ignore them, they're too hard to catch.
I rarely fire more than 2 torps at any one ship. If it's a lone merchant, I surface and shell it until it sinks (provided I hit it with at least one torp). If it's something else, I'm probably at 300ft bsl doing 1kt by the time the torps reach their target

[wutzthedeal]

Ah, caught me on a technicality, Spraug. Crannogman, I think that's part of what's wrong; trusting map contacts. Got me chasing my tail a bit. And patrolling for a month and seeing essentially nothing. I've been reading on when to report status/enemies and such (I only play single player in games like this so not sure how much reporting my status is important to friendly AI). I don't mind the long waits; makes it much more realistic--I shouldn't even say that considering I'm sitting in a comfortable, safe chair using time compression but I can channel my severe spine/knee arthritis as a type of virtual reality to feel discomfort. All I need is some type of stink machine and some sea spray once in a while. I'm going to start over because I didn't get credit for those merchant ships... guess they weren't close enough to the Marshall Islands. Can't be failing my first mission with only like 14% realism. The math and tools are starting to get easier! :know:

[Crannogman]

Awesome, congrats on getting some kills. I found seas East and NE of Borneo to be good hunting as well; plenty of merchants, few warships

[CaptBones]

One mistake I am making is predicting an accurate course for the target. I think they're moving way faster than I thought they would be because when I get there, nothing is there. But that's just going to require more reading and videos.

Welcome aboard Air Force:salute:

Although I haven't been out on a SH4 career/mission lately, I've used "real world" techniques in SH3 and SH4 that work well in the sim environment.

When you're trying to lay out the track of a convoy, task group, or a single merchant, based on a contact report, keep in mind that the course of the contact is given using a simplified Nautical Compass Card (16 points instead of the full 32-point compass). So, the course given (e.g., SW) is actually as much as 11.25 degrees different from "true" SW.

To plot a useful search pattern for intercepting that contact, you can draw a triangle based on the boundaries of the reported course ("SW" = 225 degrees true, plus/minus 11.25 degrees, adding "farthest-on" arcs along the given course, based on the speed of the contact. IIRC the speeds given in contact reports are "slow" (<7kts), "medium" (7-9kts) and "fast" (>9kts for merchant vessels but usually much faster [18-25knots] for warships).

A zig-zagging contact doesn't seem to screw-up that technique, as far as I've seen anyway; it appears that the contact reports provide the Base Course of the convoy/task group.

I hope this helps you out a bit..."Find 'em...chase 'em...sink 'em!"

[THEBERBSTER]

A warm welcome ‘wutzthedeal’ to the Subsim family.:subsim:

You will always find someone here to help you.:)

Link to my SH3 – SH4 – SH5 posts::salute:

Step By Step Tutorials & How To Do It.:up:

Also Included Are Some Useful Download Links.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211804 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211804)

If you Are A New Subber My Thread Might Save You Some Time.:salute:

You can now use TDW’s Generic File Patcher with STEAM see my Tutorial Post #125

[THEBERBSTER]

A warm welcome ‘CapnZero’ to the Subsim family.:subsim:

[THEBERBSTER]

A warm welcome ‘Crannogman' to the Subsim family.:subsim:

[wutzthedeal]

Thank you all for chiming in. Since reading what you wrote and referenced (though I'm just not ready to fully understand all the math yet) I've really started having some fun. So I'm gonna go disappear into this game for a while. There's a war to win, again. Then I'm gonna write a new song. It'll go:
I'm proud to be an American,
Where at least I know I'm... relatively hard to depth-charge depending on your technology and experience.

[Crannogman]

Capt Bones makes a good point; the probability cone makes sense. I usually make plot the line to be as parallel as I can eyeball to the little tail on the contact report icon on the map; I don't pay as much attention to the radio report itself. I've found that line to be accurate within 3000y at a range of ~50 nm

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM CZ :sunny:

[Hambone307]

Great responses, thank you. Hey, I have really enjoyed these YouTube vids (especially some of the awkward humor), but for me, it's like getting into verb conjugation on the first day of an introductory French class. I'm starting to wonder if this stuff can actually be dumbed-down enough for me to find the first few rungs of the ladder! PS I know why they have to do psych. profiles on potential submariners now. Takes a special character imo.

Say what? Verb conjugation? I'm just a simple paramedic. English isn't my best skill. :rotfl2:

At any rate, I have scanned through the previous posts and I don't think anyone has mentioned the 3:15 trick to get both speed and heading on a target. It was probably one of the best tricks I picked up on from other members of this forum.

The application is simple: Find a target and get his position relative to your boat. The next thing you need to do is put a mark at the end of the contact line. Pull up your stopwatch and start it. After 3 minutes 15 seconds, place another mark on the contact line. Grab your ruler and measure the distance between the two points and that will give you a fairly accurate speed, and his heading.

Example: Target spotted bearing 210, long range; place mark. Start watch and wait 3:15. Place second mark. Distance between marks measures 8000. This gives an approximate speed of 8 kts. At the same time, draw another overlapping line that extends past the original. This gives a target heading of 180.

Now if you are using automatic targeting, the speed and heading are irrelevant to your actual firing, but once you know the speed and heading, this will tell you where your proper firing position will be, and roughly how fast the target is moving to your intercept point.



If I have made any errors in my math, please feel free to correct me.

[CapnZero]

Hambone307...

I remember reading about that timing approach, but I think there is a variation to it. As I recall the time is dependent on what type of units of measurement you are using:

Metric uses 3:15.
Imperial uses 2:58 (or actually 3:00).

Is my memory fogged or did I miss something?

:06:

[Spraug]

Hambone307...

I remember reading about that timing approach, but I think there is a variation to it. As I recall the time is dependent on what type of units of measurement you are using:

Metric uses 3:15.
Imperial uses 2:58 (or actually 3:00).

Is my memory fogged or did I miss something?

:06:

Nope, you're spot on.

[Crannogman]

Actually, a target travelling 8kts will move 800y in 3min (180s). It will move 800m in 3min 14s.

[Hambone307]

Actually, a target travelling 8kts will move 800y in 3min (180s). It will move 800m in 3min 14s.

After looking at my math this morning, I just realized my mistake :03: But yes, 3:15 for metric units and 3:00 for imperial units.:arrgh!:

[wutzthedeal]

Well I'm back. I LOVE THIS GAME, on the easy setting. Seriously, I can use my imagination to figure out what it would have been like to manually target, surface for batt. charge, etc. My problem now is that I went and sunk another $10 bucks into the U-boat missions (which I'm not really interested in playing; I just wanted the 1.5 steam update or 1.4, whatever update it is) and now I have the dreaded time-compression bug. Have tried every solution I could find to no avail. Anybody know any hidden tricks? I'm an IT guy and thought I knew computers but not this. I have a quad-core 1.3 GHz with 4gb ram. I've done LAA, run in compatibility mode, etc. Nothing working. After about June 1942, I can't use more than 32x compression without making the game unplayable. Figures; find a game, lose some cash, get disappointment. This feels like being back in the Air Force.

[fireftr18]

What do mean "time compression bug?" I know sometimes during tc, if the time doesn't automatically go to normal with a contact, you can get destroyed. Or you risk running aground if you're not careful with setting up a route.

[TorpX]

I'm not familiar with the "time compression bug", either.

[wutzthedeal]

It's a fairly popular issue where once you go above 8 or 16x like to cross the long stretches between Pearl and Japan, the game either quits or slows down dramatically. Always happens to me around Fall of 1942 when I'm leaving anywhere in Japan. Then, to make it back to port, what might have taken you a half-hour real-time could take a day, if you want to just let your computer sit there and run most of the time. What a let down. Thought a decent PC 8 years newer than the game could handle it and/or Ubi or Steam would fix it. From what I'm reading, most people that have it have not been able to fix it. All kinds of tricks out there but none have worked for me. Maybe I'll just keep playing the first year of a career.

[Crannogman]

It's a fairly popular issue where once you go above 8 or 16x like to cross the long stretches between Pearl and Japan, the game either quits or slows down dramatically. Always happens to me around Fall of 1942 when I'm leaving anywhere in Japan. Then, to make it back to port, what might have taken you a half-hour real-time could take a day, if you want to just let your computer sit there and run most of the time. What a let down. Thought a decent PC 8 years newer than the game could handle it and/or Ubi or Steam would fix it. From what I'm reading, most people that have it have not been able to fix it. All kinds of tricks out there but none have worked for me. Maybe I'll just keep playing the first year of a career.

Sounds like a slimy proposition when motoring across the Pacific; hope I don't get it.

[fireftr18]

It's a fairly popular issue where once you go above 8 or 16x like to cross the long stretches between Pearl and Japan, the game either quits or slows down dramatically. Always happens to me around Fall of 1942 when I'm leaving anywhere in Japan. Then, to make it back to port, what might have taken you a half-hour real-time could take a day, if you want to just let your computer sit there and run most of the time. What a let down. Thought a decent PC 8 years newer than the game could handle it and/or Ubi or Steam would fix it. From what I'm reading, most people that have it have not been able to fix it. All kinds of tricks out there but none have worked for me. Maybe I'll just keep playing the first year of a career.

I've been playing for years and where this isn't the first I've heard of the lag, it's the first I heard of it that bad. I get the lag when I get to TC about 7000x, but it's still faster than the previous setting. The lag isn't considered a bug because it's caused by the computer, not the software. Check your computer specs and settings. The usual cause is not enough RAM, especially video RAM. My new computer has integrated video RAM and I'm not having any problems until higher TC.

[Hambone307]

I had the time compression issue with RFB. Loved the RFB mod and what it provided, but once I hit about the same time (Fall 1942) on my way back from Japan, I would make it about halfway to Midway and then the TC would practically freeze my computer above X32. I run an HP2000 with an AMD A6-5200 and 12g of ram and was astonished to have such an issue.
I decided after letting the game sit a year to download TMO 2.5 and haven't had any issues aside from the occasional CTD from a bad mod soup.

[merc4ulfate]

I have only experienced the bug on corrupt games never on a good install.

How are we defining noob?

Noob ... that which lacks a bee.:har::har:

:k_rofl: :k_rofl:

:k_rofl: :k_rofl:

[wutzthedeal]

Thanks guys for all your posts. It seems that checking vertical sync did it for me, though I can't be sure because I changed other things. I still get lag at busy times but then it clears up when I'm away from land/contacts. It was unplayable before after the first year; now I'm in late 1943 and have sunk a half-million tons. Love easy settings. I only wish I could hunt Nazis instead of the Japanese in this game. I mean I just have this thing against Nazis.