View Full Version : Swedish navy chasing foreign sub
http://www.key103.co.uk/news/uk-and-world/20141017-sweden-hunts-foreign-submarine-off-stockholm/
The link above is from yesterday
the latest news from the Swedish news paper is that the Swedish navy is looking for a damaged submarine. The Swedish intelligence FRA should have intercepted Russian distress signals from the area.
There are lots of it on the swedish news pages.
If they find the sub, they don't know if it is a minisub or a ordinary sub. they will attack it with what they got, DC, torpedoes.
A former high ranked military said
"That there may be two reasons for any Russian submarine presence in this case: espionage against Holland or preparations for war against Sweden"
Good old time back again.
Markus
Catfish
10-18-14, 03:34 PM
Last time it was said to be a US sub, or a sea lion.
Wan't there this guy Olof Palme, who was killed because being a social democrat and trying to have a thorough investigation on those submarine incidents ? :hmmm:
Last time it was said to be a US sub, or a sea lion.
Wan't there this guy Olof Palme, who was killed because being a social democrat and trying to have a thorough investigation on those submarine incidents ? :hmmm:
This question was asked by the Swedish journalist yesterday during a press meeting and the leader of the operation said it was without doubt a man made object they were chasing.
Palmer? That was new to me, have heard a lot of things regarding his death.
American sub? there was some indication that one or more of the subs the Swedish navy was chasing in the beginning of the 80's could have been American subs.
Personally I don't think there is any war preparation from the Russian side, only collecting intelligence and "Trying out the Swedish military"
If it is a Russian sub there will be some diplomatically crisis between Sweden and Russia at most. A war will only mean a lose-lose situation for Russia(I'm not talking about war on the battlefront.)
My opinion
ikalugin
10-18-14, 04:15 PM
Swedish "ecologists" were showing a lot of interest in Russian sonar bous during our most recent Baltic exercise.
The Swedish news has also been talking about a Russian Crude Oil Tanker laying just outside the Swedish territorial waters
After the information the indicated Russian oil tanker(Ns Concord) headed east.
at 22:53 it turned its transponder off and disappeared from the map
My thoughts
Have the Russians given up trying to get hold of the damaged submarine? or
Markus
Swedish "ecologists" were showing a lot of interest in Russian sonar bous during our most recent Baltic exercise.
Our guys ain't better than your guys.
Markus
The Swedish news has also been talking about a Russian Crude Oil Tanker laying just outside the Swedish territorial waters
After the information the indicated Russian oil tanker(Ns Concord) headed east.
at 22:53 it turned its transponder off and disappeared from the map
My thoughts
Have the Russians given up trying to get hold of the damaged submarine? or
Markus
One would wonder why they ever ran with the AIS on if they were engaged in any covert activity? The track does seem weird though and the fact that it was loitering the area and have been there since Wednesday does also seem odd. Although it could be some sort of mechanical malfunction.
Also, the operation have been intensified today and an alleged info leak seems to point to Swedish SigInt intercepting a distress call between a Russian submarine in the Stockholm archipelago and Kaliningrad. Ground forces are involved as well, searching for any possible crew members that have made it ashore.
Ground forces are involved as well, searching for any possible crew members that have made it ashore.
I thought it was people from Säpo, Must and the police working in the area to catch any person with false identity or any Swede who feel they should help a foreign nation.
made me remember my own time in the Swedish Navy, when we had exercise there was always a "well-equipped" fishing boat nearby
Markus
I thought it was people from Säpo, Must and the police working in the area to catch any person with false identity or any Swede who feel they should help a foreign nation.
made me remember my own time in the Swedish Navy, when we had exercise there was always a "well-equipped" fishing boat nearby
Markus
Yes, they are involved, but I also heard Hemvärnet was contributing. I assume for the reasons you mention.
Yes, they are involved, but I also heard Hemvärnet was contributing. I assume for the reasons you mention.
Using Hemvärnet(National guard) is good thing, they know the people in the area, that is if they come from the same area and they know the terrain very well.
Markus
Jimbuna
10-19-14, 06:13 AM
Things seem to have gone quiet, can we come out of the shelters now? :)
Things seem to have gone quiet, can we come out of the shelters now? :)
Yes, Swedish media just mentioned something about a cessation in the operation now. I was not clear if the reporter meant that the Navu ships and helicopters had left the specific area he was in or if it was a general cessation. We'll see I guess.
Safe-Keeper
10-19-14, 10:53 AM
Norwegian news are discussing a nearby Russian tanker that has been acting strangely. There's speculation that it could be serving as the mothership for a Russian midget sub.
VirtualVikingX
10-19-14, 11:28 AM
Did someone post pictures of the black clad man in this thread? Or I am imagine things?
If so, anyone got a link?
EDIT: You can see the picture here http://mobil.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/sapo-och-must-jagar-vadande-man/
Sorry for the confusion, mixed up two forums. The picture was posted in an other forum.
Norwegian news are discussing a nearby Russian tanker that has been acting strangely. There's speculation that it could be serving as the mothership for a Russian midget sub.
NS Concord is the tanker they are talking about.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=z5L2l9pSs3SA.kllj7r6C5Blc
The operation will continue after having three reported observations of what could be foreign submersibles. The latest one came at 1015AM today and was accompanied by this photo:
http://i.imgur.com/nadSzLw.jpg
In conjunction with witness interviews of the persons reporting, the Swedish Navy has classified this as "Probable" subsurface activity of foreign origin, which means that the Navy will extend the operation and continue the search. They also reinforced that this is not an ASW operation, it is an intelligence gathering ops to confirm that a foreign power is operating inside Swedish territorial waters, but they also say that it could transition to an ASW op if needed. The "Probable" designation is the second highest in the Swedish Navy scale, second only to "Confirmed". This latest incident is apparently consistent with previous observations made over the span of several years, and the area is of interest to foreign powers according to the Swedish Navy.
VirtualVikingX
10-19-14, 12:59 PM
Thanks, daft. Most interesting indeed.
Thanks, daft. Most interesting indeed.
It's like a live action spy novel. :) Hopefully, no-one will be hurt or killed though! I would like to catch whatever it is running around out there, make no mistake.
The original image:
http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/siteassets/6-aktuellt/bild1.jpg
So that's where Nessie went!
Thought it'd been a while. :yep:
So that's where Nessie went!
Thought it'd been a while. :yep:
A chilly northern holliday. :)
ikalugin
10-19-14, 01:28 PM
Heh, shame that stuff on pirania series of small displacement subs was cleaned up.
The Swedish Navy is highly interested in finding this sub
However the Swedish Government ain't ´cause it would give a huge diplomatically crisis with Russia. Of course they are interested to find out what it is too, if we look at it military.
Nessie?? Call the Swedish navy and tell them, they are hunting a Scottish tourist who love water and are swimming around Stockholm.
ikalugin
10-19-14, 02:00 PM
Well, there aren't that many subs in the baltic fleet and majority of the small displacement subs are also well known, and out of them absolute majority is delivered by a parent sub and are used for deep water operations.
So the possible Russian candidate would be pirania series.
http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/215/0N99J.jpg
I wonder if it left tracks in the seabed like the last one...now that was an interesting case. :yep:
ikalugin
10-19-14, 02:20 PM
I wonder if it left tracks in the seabed like the last one...now that was an interesting case. :yep:
I would thoink though that making tracks in sea bed is still better than leaving a permanent mark on Baton Rouge if you know what I mean.
Catfish
10-19-14, 02:22 PM
I guess it is all smoke and mirrors, maybe even once more trying to turn Sweden against evil Russia.
" ... Some experts insist that propeller noises were mixed up with the sounds of nature, while others suspect other NATO members tested the defence of a neutral Sweden. ..."
http://rt.com/news/prime-time/sweden-solves-cold-war-submarine-mystery/
" ... despite the hullabaloo, there was never any evidence the Soviets were responsible. Incredibly, the only Swedish tapes of the submarine propeller sounds from the Harsfjarden hunt, which might have helped identify the vessels, were curiously erased. Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence confiscated the only other recording from the Harsfjarden hunt, held by Norway, a U.S. ally in NATO. ..."
Seems have been british and US subs all along:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/27379/international-head-games-turning-sweden-against-soviets
Remember Olof Palme.
Some more:
The secret war against Sweden:
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-ETroO0zEC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=american+submarines+swedish+waters&source=bl&ots=nl14behn1k&sig=trQolALS2ZKf69UYcgsbAdeH91M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8w9EVNHOLcbMygOv44L4CQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=american%20submarines%20swedish%20waters&f=false
"After a Soviet Whiskey submarine was stranded in 1981 in the Swedish
archipelago, massive submarine intrusions took place within Swedish
waters – later described as the first Soviet military initiative against a
Western European state since the Berlin crisis.
After a dramatic hunt in 1982, a parliamentary commission stated that six Soviet submarines had ‘played their games’ in the Stockholm archipelago – one even in Stockholm harbour. The Swedish government protested strongly, and relations between the two countries were icy for several years.
Today, all evidence for Soviet intrusions appears to have been
manipulated, or simply invented. Classified documents point to covert US
and UK activity."
It still may be a russian sub. Why not. All nations are doing it, everywhere.
I would thoink though that making tracks in sea bed is still better than leaving a permanent mark on Baton Rouge if you know what I mean.
Or the rocks :03:
Well, there aren't that many subs in the baltic fleet and majority of the small displacement subs are also well known, and out of them absolute majority is delivered by a parent sub and are used for deep water operations.
So the possible Russian candidate would be pirania series.
http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/215/0N99J.jpg
A Swedish expert think it could be
Triton-NN the Swedish Navy is chasing.
Markus
ikalugin
10-19-14, 02:37 PM
Or the rocks
Navigation errors can be deadly. Though ramming the French does not count as a navigational error :p
Friends there are ONE big evidence that say it is russian.
The communication from somewhere around stockholm and Kalinigrad. Two of them one open distress call the last was encrypted.
According to FRA(SigInt)
There are people in Sweden who says it's no sub, its the Swedish Navy who want more money.
Markus
ikalugin
10-19-14, 02:41 PM
A Swedish expert think it could be
Triton-NN the Swedish Navy is chasing.
Markus
Well I don't think that a such light craft could get into that area of operations,so I would still say that pirania series is a more probable candidate.
Catfish
10-19-14, 02:54 PM
...The communication from somewhere around stockholm and Kalinigrad. Two of them one open distress call the last was encrypted. ...
According to FRA(SigInt)Markus
Then i do not understand the hystery. If the sub is damaged, they should probably help it instead of "chasing", regardless in which waters it is in, or from which nationality.
They can exchange their f.. protest notes later.
Well I don't think that a such light craft could get into that area of operations,so I would still say that pirania series is a more probable candidate.
I'm no expert on Mini Subs
I think that the choice of submarine depends on the type of operation.
Markus
ikalugin
10-19-14, 03:18 PM
Well as far as I remember Triton-NN looks like this:
http://www.padelt-online.de/doc666/image074.jpg
Ie it is a submersible speed boat, I am not sure even if any were actually fielded.
http://uploads.ru/i/Xhpbq.jpg
Catfish
10-19-14, 03:28 PM
Hi Mapuc,
i do not know if you even read what i wrote, about those intrusions into swedish waters.
This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then they were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitating russian subs, repeatedly breaking swedish territorial waters and by this convinving the swedish government to keep to the NATO, and have no negotiations with Russia.
(The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russian origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato designation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub, beached within swedish territorial waters).
And maybe i do not have to remind you, but since you asked about Olof Palme (NOT Palmer):
1987 New Prime Minister Olof Palme murdered on the streets of Stockholm.
Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.
The swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.
A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:
Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."
Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.
The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done.
The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
The "police trail" as it was called, was neverollowed, and Palme's death never clarified.
:hmm2:
Hi Mapuc,
i do not know if you even read what i wrote, about those intrusions into swedish waters.
This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then they were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitaing russian subs, and repeatedly breaking into territorial waters.
(The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russion origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato deignation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub being beachedwithin swedidh territorial waters).
And maybe i do not have to remind you, but since you asked about Olof Palme (NOT Palmer):
1987 New Prime Minister Olof Palme murdered on the streets of Stockholm.
Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.
The swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.
A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:
Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."
Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.
The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done.
The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
:hmm2:
Sorry Catfish I had read your first answer and sorry I didn't reply.
Yes there was indication that some of these violations could have been American subs.
Palme. There are many theories about who and why and this Police-track is one of them. Many Swedes still believes it was the Police who did it.
What if I also told that the reason to why these policemen/officers should have killed Palme, was his love to Russia. They was convinced that Palme would sell Sweden to Sovjet.
Markus
Navigation errors can be deadly. Though ramming the French does not count as a navigational error :p
Nah, that's just business as normal. :up:
Catfish
10-19-14, 03:48 PM
... What if I also told that the reason to why these policemen/officers should have killed Palme, was his love to Russia. They was convinced that Palme would sell Sweden to Sovjet.
Markus
Of course they thought so. But was Palme really a "Russia-lover" who wanted to "sell Sweden" ?
Is this not a bit ridiculous ?
Is a suspicion enough, to plain murder the prime minister of a nation ?
And of course, he was a social democrat. And anyone not being straight right wing, must be a communist and a traitor, by NATO standards.
I think your officers put their love to NATO above their oath to their own country. Bad enough they still seem to be in exalted position.
If they are the murderers, they deserve at least to be tried for high treason. Of course, this will never happen.
I found a very interesting article in the Swedish News paper aftonbladet. se.
By W. H
Have used google translate
"Secrecy creates speculations
Short summary.
Are we one hundred percent sure that a violation of Swedish waters occurred? Answer: No.
If the place is Russia, where the prime suspect? Answer: Yes
Can there be any other type of NATO? Answer: Yes
The grainy image of what could be some kind of submarine adds very little in practice. Although military experts can not seem to say what it is that tipster caught on picture
The picture is additionally taken two days after the surgery published. I suspect it will turn up many grainy images of defense for underwater vehicles as public speaking in the archipelago, but that could just as well be seals, rocks in the water or driftwood.
The quickest releases picture suggests that it is the only "picture proof" defense has for the suspected violations.
The defense also rejects SvD's data on emergency call and shaken submarine but is more vague with regard to encrypted communications
"Worth remembering"
Amid the hysterical atmosphere that prevails, it may be worthwhile to recall some things.
Sweden's ability to hunt submarines are much worse now than in the 80s. Because they suspected violations ceased soon after the Soviet collapse as has been piecemeal poised down the Swedish ability.
If a violation actually occurred, there is little chance that the defense will bring up the submarine, mini submarine or whatever it is. Not even in the 80's with all the felled depth bombs defense managed to get up any foreign vessel or nation determine the invaders with one hundred percent certainty.
From the Swedish side, it's as much about showing that you are on the ball and that we have the capacity to respond to violations
Russia has by his conduct in the last year all by themselves qualified for the main suspect in the case, the case of a violation.
The Kremlin has ordered its border defenses to behave very aggressively towards the outside world. It has flown risky near Swedish signals intelligence plane in international waters and ostentatiously displayed its vapenbestyckning. Russian ships have almost rammed a research vessel. A series of threatening behavior has been observed both in the Baltic and elsewhere
What do the Russians want?
So it is very clear that Russia wants to show that it has increased its presence and that it is back as a dominant military power.
The question was a possible underwater violation fits into the picture
Would Russia in fact that Sweden will discover that our waters are violated? Since we already know with certainty that Russia violated our territory in the air and generally behaved threateningly, is there any reason why you would not do it even underwater
The general objective may be to intimidate the Baltic countries and in Sweden's case, a warning not to take any further steps towards NATO membership.?
But if one wanted to keep secret intrusion and uncovered by accident so is Russia's objective another. Then will the Russian military may collect information about Swedish submarine defense for use in possible future operations.
In some ways, a more worrying scenario.
Although NATO submarines in the Baltic Sea. In theory, it is quite possible that, for example, the United States violates Swedish waters in order to put the blame on Russia. However, it is less likely as Sweden now collaborating so closely with NATO. Something we did not in the 80s.
On the basis of what we so far know for sure, it is still no guarantee that everything is a fake. Perhaps no one violated Swedish water whatsoever. The fact that several people have seen anything suspicious which is then interpreted is entirely possible.
Now that the Swedish military operation is generally known, it is difficult to see why the military would continue to conceal concrete evidence if you have any.
The Navy may have their own purposes in interpreting witness testimony in a certain direction.
"May have overreacted"
For many years, the Navy's ability to hunt a foreign underwater vehicles refitted down like the other defense. Now that the defense will be strengthened again comes to stay ahead to get increased funding.
I do not claim that the defense found on the violation but they may consciously or unconsciously have overreacted.
Defence secrecy and lack of facts contributing unfortunately that it is possible to speculate in all possible directions "
Markus
The Rear Admiral holdingbthe latest press briefing denied any knowledge of distress broadcasts or encrypted communication originating from within Swedish waters. This obviously does not mean no such broadcasts were made, but he was pretty adamant in denying them. The information regarding the broadcasts were leaked to a journalist that specializes in military matters and allagedly has good connections inside the Swedish military.
Of course they thought so. But was Palme really a "Russia-lover" who wanted to sell Sweden ?
Is this not a bit ridiculous ?
Is a suspicion enough, to plain murder the prime minister of a nation ?
And of course, he was a social democrat. And anyone not being straight right wing, must be a communist and a traitor, by NATO standards.
I think your officers put their love to NATO above their oath to their own country. Bad enough they still seem to be in exalted position.
If they are the murderers, they deserve to be tried for high treason, and shot. Of course, this will never happen.
If we by any chances should get the people who was behind the killing of Olof Palme, they should be tried as high treason
In the beginning I read a lot about those "Palme Tracks"
Here are some of them
The PKK-Trak(speculation that the Kurds was behind the killing)
South Africa(speculation that a Hitman was hired to kill Palme)
The Police track(this one you know)
A mistake-(this was my favorite) Someone was planning to shot some person but Palme had the unfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Markus
Catfish
10-19-14, 04:01 PM
If you substract the most unbelievable scenarios, and then think of who benefits the most of a certain situation, you are seldomly wrong :03:
Someone living in the archipelago saw flashes and heard booming sounds. He managed to film the smaller event:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d8PY-oOvctE&list=UUX2mXy0gg6s78PvKDj4UcEw
Someone living in the archipelago saw flashes and heard booming sounds. He managed to film the smaller event:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d8PY-oOvctE&list=UUX2mXy0gg6s78PvKDj4UcEw
3 things comes into my mind
1. They still haven't found the sub, by using DC they hope the sub will start to move and thereby hear it.
2. They have found it and are trying to get it surfaced
3. They are going in for a kill.
Edit:
Have been looking at some of the Swedish news page and there it's nothing about explosion(s)
Markus
ikalugin
10-19-14, 09:18 PM
Or someone went fishing with TNT.
Rockstar
10-19-14, 09:26 PM
Does Swedish sonar make a sound like 'bork' or does it 'ping'?
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/36/8b/fb/368bfb7fd8e9b23c5154c2e8d945f923.jpg
It was just Putin playing with his new toy.
http://i.4cdn.org/k/1413737452654.jpg
ikalugin
10-19-14, 10:44 PM
Soviets were actually looking into transport subs:
http://deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/nns/748/list.files/image002.gif
(And many, many other paper projects)
Regarding the filmed (alleged) explosions. It could be a prank, it could be a natural phenomenon such as thunder and lightning, though the guy that filmed it said it definately was not, the weather around the area was bad last night I believe. The first two explosions were louder than the one he caught on camera. It certainly is wise to remain sceptical until further info is available. If the Navy have opened fire, they will most likely let people know in due time.
No new developments during the night as far as I know.
Imo Russia needs stop wasting time sending submarines to prowl foreign waters and focus on adding more content to War Thunder. :)
Type941
10-20-14, 02:48 AM
Imo Russia needs stop wasting time sending submarines to prowl foreign waters and focus on adding more content War Thunder. :)
most reasonable thing said in this thread. in fact, i want some battleships there.
ikalugin
10-20-14, 02:48 AM
Imo Russia needs stop wasting time sending submarines to prowl foreign waters and focus on adding more content War Thunder. :)
I would exchange WT for additional Russian (HK) nuclear subs, such a horrible person I am.
most reasonable thing said in this thread. in fact, i want some battleships there.
Yeah I can't wait for the Navy Battles! I hope they will add subs too someday. Any way sorry, going OT.
Type941
10-20-14, 03:52 AM
something russians writing about it:
Here is a kinda TL:DR version:
NS Concord is acting very strangely, took a long time to get to the middle of Baltic and had its AIS disconnected for 5 months. What it was doing in ST Pete is a big question
Another ship (Logachev) is converging on the area, owned by some Polar expedition group (russian too)
If the sub was there, it was not a nuke, so means diesel / and because of that, it will either surface soon (cant stay under too long) or have left the area. Or it will have to surface and give up.
Russians wont admit this and if it escaped, no need to admit
Usage of NS Concord is very questionable as is reputable company ownership (sovkomflot, i.e. largest russian one, well run, international)
thanks the ship is a connecting/communication beacon between the boat and moscow / may be
http://www.odin.tc/mbnew/read.asp?articleID=129
use google translate...
"As we know from the reports of the Swedish, Russian and world media, the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet first raised the alarm, saying, citing sources in the Ministry of National Defense, in the evening on October 16 was intercepted by the "alarming" broadcast from the waters of the Stockholm Archipelago, presumably from a submarine. It seems that the transfer was in Russian, she walked through the channel reserved for emergency situations. Sweden threw in search of possible submarine in its waters a large number of capabilities. The flames were fanned tanker SCF NS Concord, which really behaves very strangely.
Last 5 months tanker held in St. Petersburg, according to the Swedish marine experts. It seems to be what to believe or not, this is a serious tanker serious company, check the history of AIS, and all will become clear. However, the point is that a number of websites available to me, tracking signals AIS, history of flights and ports of call NS Concord ends abruptly end of April and the release of Rotterdam. Suppose tanker left for repair in St. Petersburg, but why is not fixed at least coming to St. Petersburg? While repairs AIS could disable, but the output should have been included since. Recent data AIS just say that the tanker should be in the Danish straits, and where he came from, and when, does not say very gently say, unusual. Well, and then began a completely incomprehensible petlyaniya tanker in the middle of the Baltic Sea. He walked tacks in international waters, but the Swedish experts suspect that it serves as a repeater, that is, provides a link between the hypothetical submarine and someone on someone's shore. Perhaps, on the banks of the Moscow River.
Recent data AIS said that the tanker is still in the middle of the Baltic Sea. His movement in general is extremely curious.
Here's what the Swedes built:
But data from another site on the background, ie the movement of the tanker before the publication of parts of the country maneuvering.
They are no less interesting. I would even say more. From St. Petersburg to the areas of the country with all the maneuvers tanker nakrutki 350 miles, with its speed of 14 knots is the maximum two days, with all the narrow waters and other hazards. But judging by the website, whose services are not free and open to all (I have access, because the news is delivered on site), the tanker came from St. Petersburg ... October 3rd. That is, he did not go to a normal course, he was dragged. Why, why? I do not understand. This repeat, serious tanker night downtime costing tens of thousands of dollars. Normal commercial vessels do not behave without any serious reason. The question is - what?
At our yard Cold War. Given the huge increase in the activity of our military, wherever they are, and how far can reach, personally, I admit the possibility of some submarine action in certain waters, which in theory, they do nothing, and furthermore, their very presence there is illegal. In previous years, the Cold War is going right and left, got into our water foe, adversary from time to time are fighting not friendly visits. It is well known that our civil court when necessary, used by the military to carry out certain tasks. But to be honest, hard to imagine that for some similar problems using a commercial tanker is very large. Except that it does not pre-prepared to perform some specific tasks? I repeat - I can not understand that the tanker did 5 months in St. Petersburg, and why this fact is not recorded in its history. As well as I can not understand how you can go from St. Petersburg in the Baltic Centre for almost three weeks. Well, not, say, 10 hours to drive to the metro from Theatre to River Station, and walk even husband and will not try to explain his absence to his wife that the train was going 10 hours.
Can offer several versions, but probably is not worth it. While it is possible to track the movement of another vessel, immediately which attracted a lot of attention - it's NIS Professor Logatchev (IMO 883469, Russian flag, the owner of the FSUE Polar Marine Geological Expedition), released from Kronstadt appointment to Las Palmas, and approaching at the moment ( MSK 2000 October 19) to areas of the country zigzags sovkomflotovskogo tanker. Interestingly, the RV left Kronstadt, and that the last 5 months he spent in repairs.
Can the military and so in passing (or not passing, in accordance with some plan or project) to use for their problems civilian merchant ships, especially such serious? A year ago I would have said no, impossible. Now I have so I can not say.
Finally on the submarine itself, if it has a place to be. All is now in the hands of the Swedes. While concrete facts in favor of the version of the penetration of water in Sweden Russian submarines not. But let's not forget that we can only talk about a diesel submarine, whose stay under water without surfacing limited to a few days on end. If the boat is, and is in Swedish waters for a long time under water it would not last. Or she will leave, or will pop up and say so, at the mercy of surrender or die. If you leave or have already left, slipped, then in theory, to prove that she really was and entered the water in Sweden, will be very difficult.
If, indeed, the whole spy story is not fiction, and not fear the Swedes, I can only shrug. To drive a huge tanker one of the largest tanker companies in the world, as any auxiliary military scuzzy lift, it is something out of the ordinary, especially in such difficult times of economic hardship and sanctions. And if there is a submarine and find her, and would tie tightly to the Russian Federation, and will be followed by yet another scandal, then what can be expected SCF, our main national maritime carrier? Slapped sanctions on it, the type of very tough sanctions against the Iranian tanker company NITC, and Russia remains without its largest owner. For what?
Hopefully, the boat is still no, at least in Swedish waters. Our Ministry of Defence as it is known, has already given a categorical denial, but we know what the price according to our Defense, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and scared to tell anyone else.
Aframax tanker NS Concord, IMO 9299692, dwt 105902 tons, built 2005, flag Liberia, GFR NovoShip operator, Novorossiysk.
Mikhail Voitenko
October 19
Corrections and additions:
The tanker came to place their strange maneuvers even on October 5th. On the morning of October 20 tanker did not leave the area, and was in the drift (NIS Professor Logatchev on October 20 0000 Greenwich somewhere lost, AIS signal is absent). His maneuvering and for such a long stay in the center of the Baltic Sea can not be explained by ordinary, normal practice for operating cargo ships, the more of this type and of this size. The company Sovcomflot, for all the criticism of some aspects of e activity (powerful lobbying its interests at the highest level and guaranteed by the state cargo base that leaves competitors in the Russian market is no chance), however, is one of the few major Russian companies operating in the global level. Its fleet is operated very professionally. Actions tanker NS Concord did not fit into the normal operation of GFR, they defy logical explanation. GFR values its reputation and tries to prove that it has become one of the largest tanker companies in the world for his work, and not the state of the power and support. However, there is little doubt that the company will execute the orders of their superiors, no matter how ridiculous and damaging to the reputation of the company as they may seem. Deal with the Devil, she deal with the devil is. Perhaps the actions of NS Concord has some rational, not conspirological explanation, but then guide GFR is obliged to provide it."
Jimbuna
10-20-14, 04:44 AM
Regarding the filmed (alleged) explosions. It could be a prank, it could be a natural phenomenon such as thunder and lightning, though the guy that filmed it said it definately was not, the weather around the area was bad last night I believe. The first two explosions were louder than the one he caught on camera. It certainly is wise to remain sceptical until further info is available. If the Navy have opened fire, they will most likely let people know in due time.
Either that or the age old phenomenon...a shrimp farting.
Either that or the age old phenomenon...a shrimp farting.
Get enough shrimp into a small area and it will be a national crisis. :)
Safe-Keeper
10-20-14, 05:25 AM
According to Norwegian news, the Swedish navy intercepted "signals" on a frequenzy the Russians use for distress calls shortly before the first u-boat sighting was made. Which might help explain why their navy took the report so seriously.
Oh, and don't ever use RT as a credible source. It's Putin's pet propaganda channel ;) .
Jimbuna
10-20-14, 06:22 AM
Get enough shrimp into a small area and it will be a national crisis. :)
According to Norwegian news, the Swedish navy intercepted "signals" on a frequenzy the Russians use for distress calls shortly before the first u-boat sighting was made. Which might help explain why their navy took the report so seriously.
Oh, and don't ever use RT as a credible source. It's Putin's pet propaganda channel ;) .
Rgr that.
The Swedish Navy us now putting up a safety zone around the current search area. Earlier civilian vessels were allowed pretty close to the operation, but as of now the military want a 10km perimiter cleared around tje search area. No civilians allowed in.
Catfish
10-20-14, 07:04 AM
Hmm.
1. Look at the course of the tanker, in the midst of the Baltic. Strange course, of course (also see Oberon's link with the plotted course).
Ok i have sailed in the area, this is not within swedish territorial waters methinks ?
(But then in WW2 the US expanded their terr. waters to the Mid-Atlantic, just to be able to call german U-boats violators of international treaties lol)
2. This photo made from the land, allegedly showing a russian (?) sub (?).
Is there anyone who believes, the position of the tanker inmidst the baltic is anywhere near the point this photo was taken ?
:rotfl2:
The airspace above the ops area is now closed as well. Something is up. Either they have good reson to believe they are in contact and want to clear the area to get a good listen, or they are preparing to use live ordnance.
No. The tanker is probaly unrelated to what is going on. Most likely it's waiting for orders to load crude oil somewhere and is just drifting doing maintenance work kn the meantime.
Hehe, I'm in a cafė and the radio station they have on are playing a remix of the Das Boot theme. :)
VirtualVikingX
10-20-14, 08:15 AM
Hehe, I'm in a cafė and the radio station they have on are playing a remix of the Das Boot theme. :)
Excellent! Keep us posted :)
Ok, so now the military deny the 10km exclusion zone and say that it is just a rumour. They do say that caution must be used and that they will turn civilians away as needed since they need to work undisturbed. The restricted airspace is still in place though and has been confirmed.
ikalugin
10-20-14, 10:22 AM
Didn't Sweden deny intercepting those signals?
Didn't Sweden deny intercepting those signals?
They did. The journalist that broke the news maintains that his source is very credible. But the Navy keep denying that any radio traffic was intercepted.
Remember the German submarine "went to the American bars" during the war. In Russia and in Sweden are crazy. Some send a submarine in shallow water. Other open secret that the Russian secret documents on the radio cracked. And in Sweden are able to not only taped radio transmitter, but also to receive the station. All this from the category about suicide or cat about a schoolgirl who marries. The main thing - people are interested in reading ..
Sorry for my english.
If you frequently cry out, "Wolf!", Then when the wolf comes, no one will believe.
I think this is coming to a close now, and we will likely never know what, if anything, it was. The Navy now say that the exclusion zone (which media reported that the Navy denied ever having been in place) is now revoked and that you can move through the area as long as you maintain vigilance and proper seamanship around the naval vessels. The search continues, but this seems dead in the water to me now. Pun intended. :D
ikalugin
10-21-14, 01:24 AM
I heard that they have found a sub from Netherlands. Is there any truth in that?
I heard that they have found a sub from Netherlands. Is there any truth in that?
There was a joint naval exercise with the Dutch last week. The Dutch sub that participated is no longer in Swedish waters and left Friday I think. So yes, it was kind of found, but it was supposed to be there from the beginning and wasn't really lost at all. :)
Safe-Keeper
10-21-14, 04:20 AM
The search area is moved out to open sea now. The Swedish navy denies they are hunting a sub, calling it a "surveillance operation" (doing my best to translate to English here).
ikalugin
10-21-14, 04:31 AM
Does that mean that they are conducting their search outside of Swedish territorial waters?
Safe-Keeper
10-21-14, 04:34 AM
No clue, but from what I understand they are still very close to Stockholm.
Does that mean that they are conducting their search outside of Swedish territorial waters?
No, they are still searching in Swedish waters, but they are moving towards the open sea now, and the focus seems to be there rather than in the archipelago. One of the corvettes have been seen moving towards Landsortsdjupet which is the deepest part of the Baltic Sea at 456 meters.
"The indications they [Swedish Navy] have motivate the operation." Swedish Defence Minister in an interview. Also, media reporting about "some sort of contact in Ingarö fjord". But media have been reporting all kinds of keck to be honest.
Live images show HMS Kullen (I think) lowering something looking like a yellow underwater drone into the water just off Inagrö. Safety zone 1000m.
No details regarding the source of the claim of contact, but media reports that a ship involved in the search has said it has made contact. Could be a misunderstanding, and it is not confirmed.
Sorry, it was not HMS Kullen. Looks like M74, a minesweeper.
ikalugin
10-21-14, 05:49 AM
Would be nice if you could specify the vessel class and geographical location, as quick google doesn't tell me much :(
Would be nice if you could specify the vessel class and geographical location, as quick google doesn't tell me much :(
Here is Ingarö:
https://www.google.se/maps/place/Ingar%C3%B6,+134+64+Ingar%C3%B6/@59.2321991,18.4772134,12z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x46f581cf786ac621:0xf00fef43420dc 20
The pin shows the island itself, not really sure exactly where in the fjord they are looking though.
I think it was the minesweeper M74. HMS Stockholm (corvette) is also nearby I think.
I'm stupid. M74 IS Hms Kullen. My bad.
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Kullen_(M74)
ikalugin
10-21-14, 05:57 AM
So Landsort class? Looks like, well a mine sweeper, so not very good against subs.
Thanks for the links :)
Something has happened. At first they wanted to scale back, but now they ramped up instead.
New claims in the media. A Swedish vessel collided with a transmitter, allegedly Russian, last week. This incident started the whole chase. Last week reports were claiming that a navy boat (a Stridsbåt 90) collided with a light buoy. This could have been the incident refered to above.
So Landsort class? Looks like, well a mine sweeper, so not very good against subs.
Thanks for the links :)
I think Kullen is now a Koster class. Koster class is the mid life upgrades the Landsort class ships got.
Jimbuna
10-21-14, 07:56 AM
Anything more recent than this 6 hours old article?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-military-sights-russian-submarine-off-coast-of-stockholm-9805097.html
Safe-Keeper
10-21-14, 09:17 AM
Interesting development. I'm glad they've apparently found something physical, some evidence that they are indeed hunting something.
Divers have been photographed going into the water somewhere in the archipelago. No specifics as to where. Apparently the government wanted to scale back the ops, but something happened and the Navy is still searching. Ground troops scout islands and shores. The unconfirmed tip to the media about a boat colliding with a radio transmitter of some sort has been denied by the Defence Forces. They say they only know about a collision with a light bouy (spelling?).
Interesting development. I'm glad they've apparently found something physical, some evidence that they are indeed hunting something.
My guess is they have had several contacts but have great difficulties pinning it down and finding out exactly what it is. These waters are really bad in terms of ASW ops. Lots of places to hide for a small submarine or submersible. I think something is really there (or was ar least) but they won't find it.
ikalugin
10-21-14, 09:48 AM
If it is a non nuclear sub it will have to go to PD soon.
Safe-Keeper
10-21-14, 09:52 AM
(The correct spelling is buoy, if you are curious :p )
Jimbuna
10-21-14, 09:56 AM
If it is a non nuclear sub it will have to go to PD soon.
There is speculation in the UK that it may be a Kilo Class which is reckoned to be able to stay submerged for 10/11 days.
ikalugin
10-21-14, 10:02 AM
Well there are only 2 Kilos in the Baltic fleet, I think that competent people would have counted the ones away from the base (Kronshtat isn't that big a place).
And Kilos only have 140 hours or so at 3 knots, so 10-11 days is sort of pushing it.
RB Baltic Fleet B806:
http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/211/nF1Sf.jpg
I think it's a smaller than a Kilo. Some sort of mini submersible. It seems to be a vehicle that relatively easily can hide in cracks and crevices, and going by the numerous sightings it seems to have come to or near the surface to recharge or replenish oxygen a couple of times at least. Two new observations were made today apparently. Not sure what that means in terms of what they've seen. Lights and swells on the surface are two things I saw mentioned, but not sure how accurate that is.
Haha, fantastic. Those poor guys on NS Concord got a call from as Swedish reporter, and it was quite apparent that they were rather sick of having to deal with Swedish paranoia. They were drifting waiting for instructions from their company, so on one side they had their management sending them to sea to drift for weeks waiting for cargo, on the other paranoid Swedish reporters calling them, and most probably they've been overflown a few times by Swedish recon flights. My bet is that we also have a sub watching them. I hope they are paid well for all their troubles. :D
And now some kind of propaganda war is going on between Russia and Sweden.
Russian news paper are mocking the Swedes a.s.o
Markus
And now some kind of propaganda war is going on between Russia and Sweden.
Russian news paper are mocking the Swedes a.s.o
Markus
They must think we are nuts. :)
They must think we are nuts. :)
Maybe they do
Yesterday when I watch Aktuellt on SVT2 I was shocked
We haven't any of our HK4 left in our ASW-hunting group.(some of them are at museum)
They are or was our best weapon against submarines who are violating our borders.
Markus
ikalugin
10-21-14, 01:31 PM
Well aren't visbys sort of decent in the ASW role?
Well aren't visbys sort of decent in the ASW role?
She is, there are however a big advantage in using a Helicopter for ASW than a boat, like the Visby.
A sub can't hear the helicopter, not before the sonarbouy starts to binging(or what it is called) A ship can be heard, even if it doesn't go fast.
Markus
ikalugin
10-21-14, 01:40 PM
For some reason I have thought that Visby had a helicopter capability, like our project 20380/5 corvettes but I guess I was wrong.
Maybe they do
Yesterday when I watch Aktuellt on SVT2 I was shocked
We haven't any of our HK4 left in our ASW-hunting group.(some of them are at museum)
They are or was our best weapon against submarines who are violating our borders.
Markus
Nope, not a single one. I get the feeling that the big boys in SOG and the military high command together with the politicians figured we needed those cool looking Blackhawks so our Spec Ops guys and girls(?) could kick ass in style. They completely forgot that we have a massive coastline and that sometimes, neighbours and other interested parties come sniffing. :)
Not a single helicopter configured for ASW duty. I think that is hilarious considering our history.
Also, the Visby class is very competent in this regard. But the a chopper mobility is invaluable in a scenario such as this even if both passive and active sonar must be a real b**** in these waters.
For some reason I have thought that Visby had a helicopter capability, like our project 20380/5 corvettes but I guess I was wrong.
No it does have helicopter ability, we just don't have any ASW helicopters. :D
ikalugin
10-21-14, 01:47 PM
Err do they exist in plans at least? I mean weren't visbys going through the helicopter capability upgrade as recently as 2012?
Also I think you still have issue with arty, so my guess is that the budget cuts haven't been merciful on anyone.
P.s. what is the point in visby if the only ASW weapon it has is 400mm tubes?
Mr Quatro
10-21-14, 02:10 PM
She is, there are however a big advantage in using a Helicopter for ASW than a boat, like the Visby.
A sub can't hear the helicopter, not before the sonarbouy starts to binging(or what it is called) A ship can be heard, even if it doesn't go fast.
Markus
If the reports of coming to the surface for air and or charging batteries are true then it can't be a nuclear submarine.
as for ASW helicopters or patrol planes ... a submarine can hear low flying aircraft depending on the depth of the sub. American subs have hindsight sonar on a scope to listen to the baffles.
This whole thing should be awake up call for Sweden to get serious about ASW.
Don't the Swedish have subs that can take a quick search around?
If the reports of coming to the surface for air and or charging batteries are true then it can't be a nuclear submarine.
as for ASW helicopters or patrol planes ... a submarine can hear low flying aircraft depending on the depth of the sub. American subs have hindsight sonar on a scope to listen to the baffles.
This whole thing should be awake up call for Sweden to get serious about ASW.
Don't the Swedish have subs that can take a quick search around?
True, when a helicopter get lower the rotor makes "pressure" on the water which can be heard(If I remember it correctly)
The Swedish Navy know this and therefor they got only so and so low before they lowered the sonarbouy.
It is a wake-up call for the Swedish politician.
Have read some chat questions and answer from some expert.
few of these question was "Is Russia preparing to invade Sweden?"
The expert: No
My thought about all this
If it is a Russian sub, it is there for two reasons
1. Replace old equipment
2. Testing the Swedish navy's ASW-possibility
I guess it is number 1, ´cause this sub got into trouble and now it try to escape into international waters, where this Ns Concord await.
Markus
"Russian main transmitter may have started operation"
This is one of the headlines on aftonbladet.se(Swedish news paper)
a very interesting article.
Markus
ikalugin
10-21-14, 03:50 PM
Would you care to provide a quick overview of this article then? That would be most interesting to read :)
Would you care to provide a quick overview of this article then? That would be most interesting to read :)
Ohh sorry :oops:
Used google translate
"A military Combat Boat ran on a Russian head transmitter that floated to the surface.
It should have been the starting point for the entire operation Armed Forces now engaged in the Stockholm archipelago, according to an unverified source.
- This is credible and reasonable tasks, says Göran Frisk retired commodore and former submarine hunter.
Last Friday, a Combat Boat from the Armed Forces have been driving on an object in the Stockholm archipelago, a form of Russian main transmitter, which have been stuck under water, detached and floated to the surface, according to a source.
This information is not verified, but so interesting and informed that they are not going to overlook.
- It was a Combat Boat 90 which collided with what they first thought was a submarine, but later turned out to be a fixed installation that cut through and floated to the surface in the Stockholm archipelago, said Aftonbladet source to reporter John Stambro.
The object that will be half a meter in diameter, roughly, is taken care of and are now in a military area.
This should have been found on Friday, and was the start of the operation to the Armed Forces announced that it is carrying out in the Stockholm archipelago.
a source.
The hunt is about transmitters
According to Aftonbladet source, it is mainly more Russian transmitter sought on the sea floor right now.
Yesterday was cordoned an area at the entrance to Nynashamn, next Nåttarö, of the civilians. No one was allowed to approach more than 10,000 feet for several hours. From a distance they looked big three corvettes HMS Visby, Sundsvall and Stockholm, and according to Aftonbladet source, the Armed Forces at the time to have made several discoveries of Russian transmitter.
The source says that the search also affects mini-submarines and military personnel, but that the primary race is about transmitters.
Göran Frisk retired commodore and former submarine hunter, saying that the information is credible. The Russian emergency signal that Swedish Dagbladet last weekend stated to have been sent on Thursday could from just such Russian transmitters according to Aftonbladet found in the archipelago
- These communication buoys attached to submarines. They send coded signals to satellites about everything from diesel fuel leakage, fuel problems and Spetsnazförband. The Russian military system is very centrally controlled, the Russians systematically communicate between each other, says Göran Frisk.
"Driving on a light buoy"
The likelihood is great that the three observations Armed Forces assessed as credible evidence of foreign underwater operations during Sunday's press conference is about both Russian transmitter - and the submarine image as "Erik", 27, took the south of Jungfrufjärden Göran Frisk believe
- Then one begins this kind of operation Have communications buoys been torn off it is hard for the submarine right now.
Supreme Commander Sverker Goranson says that data as far as he knows is wrong.
- I know you hit a light buoy, something else I do not know, so I do not know where it comes from, he says.
Have you driven on any installation that are not Swedish?
- I do not want to go into what we found or reports we receive in detail. Therefore, we must content ourselves with the presentation we had. For operational security reasons, we keep things to ourselves. "
Markus
Type941
10-21-14, 04:19 PM
So basically Russian boat was towing/replacing some spying equipment, **** went south, Swedes saw it and trying to find it, and Russians put ships nearby to grab it too but looks like it's a goner and Swedes have it.
is that the TL:DR version of Swedish article?
ikalugin
10-21-14, 04:26 PM
Could it be that some old Intel gathering equipment was faulty and left the sea bed? And thus wiped the Swedes into searching for more of those?
Jimbuna
10-22-14, 05:43 AM
Gets me wondering just how poorly prepared and equipped some NATO members are for similar eventualities.
Granted, Sweden is not a member and hardly has much if any past history this century as being anything other than a neutral.
Could it be that some old Intel gathering equipment was faulty and left the sea bed? And thus wiped the Swedes into searching for more of those?
Could be, but intelligence gathering equipment like that is rarely designed to float to the surface. But I don't know.
The Defence Forces called an extra press conference at 1300 today which got speculation going. Turns out, they just wantef to say that some of the ships will now anchor at Berga for maintenance and repairs while a small contingent remains at sea. They call this a new phase. To me it feels like a clear indication the reported observations has turned up nothing and that it is now time to scale back and then call off the operation.
Gets me wondering just how poorly prepared and equipped some NATO members are for similar eventualities.
Granted, Sweden is not a member and hardly has much if any past history this century as being anything other than a neutral.
The waters in the archipelago are really difficult to search in. A small submersible with enough endurance can hide on the bottom in cracks and crevices and remain virtually undetectable. If then manages to move to areas already searched it becomes even more difficult. I suspect that both passive and active sonar gives a lot of clutter, and the murky waters make visual inspections with ROVs difficult as well.
Ok, some of the ships that anchored at Berga earlier today are on the move again. A naval spokesperson said that time is on our side. Our adversary can't stay below forever, sooner or later they need to pop up to breathe. Suddenly it sounds like the navy is confident they have whatever it is contained and it's now just a matter of waiting it out, hence the corvettes moving back to base. This is all speculation on my part, and 99% likely to be wrong. It would however fit if the sub started to make move now that darkness has fallen.
ikalugin
10-22-14, 12:04 PM
Could be, but intelligence gathering equipment like that is rarely designed to float to the surface. But I don't know.
The Defence Forces called an extra press conference at 1300 today which got speculation going. Turns out, they just wantef to say that some of the ships will now anchor at Berga for maintenance and repairs while a small contingent remains at sea. They call this a new phase. To me it feels like a clear indication the reported observations has turned up nothing and that it is now time to scale back and then call off the operation.
I was talking about anchored equipment and the archor breaking.
I was talking about anchored equipment and the archor breaking.
Indeed, could very well be.
Gets me wondering just how poorly prepared and equipped some NATO members are for similar eventualities.
If I remember correctly it looks very bad.
I in some exercises where Sweden where the hunted(Sub) the ships from NATO(USA, Netherland, England, Canada and some more) couldn't find it. When they was chasing subs from England, they found it, but with huge problems.
(by the way, in one execise from 2004 the Swedish Sub was disqualified not for cheating, it was for not being found-Heard that from a friend)
Edit. In exercises where Sweden was one of the hunter, the Swedish ship found the Sub almost immediately(that is until 2005, from thereon I have no clue how the execises have been going on for us the Swede)
Markus
ikalugin
10-22-14, 10:50 PM
There were several stories about Akulas penetrative towards the US East coast, though considering that SOSUS (and other such sonar systems to cover the GIUK gap) is dead it is not very surprising.
Type941
10-23-14, 01:54 AM
If I remember correctly it looks very bad.
I in some exercises where Sweden where the hunted(Sub) the ships from NATO(USA, Netherland, England, Canada and some more) couldn't find it. When they was chasing subs from England, they found it, but with huge problems.
(by the way, in one execise from 2004 the Swedish Sub was disqualified not for cheating, it was for not being found-Heard that from a friend)
Edit. In exercises where Sweden was one of the hunter, the Swedish ship found the Sub almost immediately(that is until 2005, from thereon I have no clue how the execises have been going on for us the Swede)
Markus
So you're saying that it's not Sweden who is bad but NATO itself at sub chasing?
ikalugin
10-23-14, 01:58 AM
So you're saying that it's not Sweden who is bad but NATO itself at sub chasing?
Well NATO got rid of its sonar assets in North Atlantic. So it is now easier to penetrative GIUK gap (even though it was quite possible back in the day - Aport and Atrina with Victor III subs come to mind).
Media seems to have lost interest now. No more live reporting or even updates to existing stories. Everything went quiet after the anchores ships set sail again yesterday afternoon. If anything is actually down there, the crew really knows what they are doing, so kudos to them. Sure, there have been sightings, but the timing of them (daylight) and positions (away feom any search area seem weird. It's either just cognitive bias from the observers or the crew of the submersible either were forced up for endurance purposes or wanted to be spotted (power projection etc.). Now I cincerely doubt we'll ever get any answers.
I have no idea how reliable RT is, but this popped up (17:06):
http://rt.com/news/line/2014-10-23/#73328
Safe-Keeper
10-24-14, 11:41 AM
RT is not reliable at all. It's basically Putin's pet propaganda channel. They've had Alex Jones (of Loose Change fame) on as an expert, which really says something ;) .
RT is not reliable at all. It's basically Putin's pet propaganda channel. They've had Alex Jones (of Loose Change fame) on as an expert, which really says something ;) .
Eww, well sorry about the link. :D
Anyways, search is called off. This image was published earlier today:
http://www.svd.se/Bilder/Artikelbilder/4041565.svd/representations/c/undervattensfenomen.jpg?1414146481000
Might be some very late algae blooming or and underwater outlet pipe, but the taxi boat captain that took it said he'd never seen anything quite like it. It looked like the bottom silt suddenly got disturbed for some reason.
ikalugin
10-24-14, 12:48 PM
RT is not reliable at all. It's basically Putin's pet propaganda channel. They've had Alex Jones (of Loose Change fame) on as an expert, which really says something ;) .
Sadly this is true, a better choice would be to use Interfax I would say.
I'm ashame as a Swede if this is true
It's in german hope there are some german here that could give an English explanation
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/nach-russen-drohung-schweden-brechen-suche-nach-u-boot-ab_id_4224190.html
Markus
Safe-Keeper
10-25-14, 11:52 AM
Watching a documentary (in Scandinavian) right now about U-137, the sub that ran aground in Swedish waters. Chilling stuff, especially the part about it carrying torpedoes with nuclear warheads.
http://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID37000014/tema-den-kalde-krigen-ubaat-137-paa-grunn
Don't know how I feel about the Swedish navy ending the operation. Guess in a way I'm mostly relieved nothing serious happened. We live in interesting times, as they say.
Watching a documentary (in Scandinavian) right now about U-137, the sub that ran aground in Swedish waters. Chilling stuff, especially the part about it carrying torpedoes with nuclear warheads.
http://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID37000014/tema-den-kalde-krigen-ubaat-137-paa-grunn
Don't know how I feel about the Swedish navy ending the operation. Guess in a way I'm mostly relieved nothing serious happened. We live in interesting times, as they say.
That's a good documentary! I am also glad no-one got hurt or killed even though I would have liked it if we had managed to capture whatever it was and determine from what nation it hailed. I think that overall the Navy did good. They seem to have a lot of intel to analyze, so it's going to be interesting to see what they will divulge.
Jimbuna
10-26-14, 06:44 AM
The other side of the coin could be that this phenomena will be viewed by some as a failure on the part of the Swedish navy.
I wonder if more funding/attention will be given to the navy in the future.
I'm ashame as a Swede if this is true
It's in german hope there are some german here that could give an English explanation
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/nach-russen-drohung-schweden-brechen-suche-nach-u-boot-ab_id_4224190.html
Markus
I'm not sure I follow you. My German is very rusty, but what was upsetting about that article? :)
The other side of the coin could be that this phenomena will be viewed by some as a failure on the part of the Swedish navy.
I wonder if more funding/attention will be given to the navy in the future.
I very much doubt it was a deliberate effort to up the budget. Obviously impossible to say, but it is now glaringly obvious we need our coastal defence back. Not massively so, but enough to at least have a basic search and subdue capability along our very long coast.
I'm not sure I follow you. My German is very rusty, but what was upsetting about that article? :)
According to the article the Swedish navy stopped the search for foreign sub, due to some kind of threats from Russia.
If my german understanding of the article is correct and it is correct what it says in the article I'm ashame.
I do hope that it ain't true.
Markus
According to the article the Swedish navy stopped the search for foreign sub, due to some kind of threats from Russia.
If my german understanding of the article is correct and it is correct what it says in the article I'm ashame.
I do hope that it ain't true.
Markus
Ah! I missed that connection between what the Russians said and the callin off of the search. Agreed, if that is the reason for stopping, I'm certainly with you on that.
ikalugin
10-27-14, 03:08 AM
Can anyone please expand on this, I am most curious.
Press conference in an hour. Swedish media claims to have heard from the Navy that they have evidence of an intrusion made by at least one submarine. Interesting.
Swedish Navy confirmes that a foreign submarine entered Swedish waters in October. In addition to the photo linked a few pages back, other observations had been made and the Navy have found tracks on the bottom, confirming a submarine precense. Can't link the image now as I'm on my phone.
ikalugin
11-14-14, 06:30 AM
Swedish Navy confirmes that a foreign submarine entered Swedish waters in October. In addition to the photo linked a few pages back, other observations had been made and the Navy have found tracks on the bottom, confirming a submarine precense. Can't link the image now as I'm on my phone.
Would be nice if you could do this later.
Will do! I think there is a english version of the article on www.svd.se if you are really curious. :)
http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/article7629248.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/ruotsi+kaikuluotainkuva
Thanks Dowly! One of the Corvettes got a solid contact around this area, and this track was found.
At least two people saw an underwater object just below the surface. They made their observations independently from each other and from higher ground, which outlined the submarine hull under the surface.
Also, they have Top Secret evidence which unequivocally points to a sub. It is classified though.
As Mr Bild(former Minister of Foreign Affairs) said-every evidence are pointing at Russia
Markus
ikalugin
11-14-14, 02:32 PM
http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/article7629248.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/ruotsi+kaikuluotainkuva
Can please some one explain to me how this works? Ie did a (supposed) submarine leave a trail in the sea bottom (what kind of sea surface is in that area anyway)?
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