Target Motion Analysis Tutorial

[FPSchazly]

** I've searched through the rules but didn't find anything about this. Please let me know if this is frowned upon here! **

Howdy, all! I'm FPSchazly and I love making Dangerous Waters videos. Some of you have probably seen me around the YouTubez, others probably haven't. A grand majority of my videos are me commentating over videos as I play through the default Dangerous Waters campaign and the Red Storm Rising campaign.

Recently, I decided to start a Tutorial series because it was requested by many and because the resources that come with Dangerous Waters aren't really the best/limited. Now, I've already done six tutorials but I'm reckoning that most of you on here already know how to do that stuff (Radar, ESM, Navigation, Fire Control, etc.). Today, I'm releasing a new tutorial on how to do Target Motion Analysis. This is, by far, the topic on which most people have requested help.

Now, this tutorial doesn't get too crazy in depth. That will be for more advanced tutorials. This tutorial is focused solely on TMA and how to interpret basic waterfall trends and plot basic solutions.

So, without further ado, here it is! I hope this can help at least one person out there! Thank you. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5ZU582-bP4

P.S. Is there a way to do a media embed like on other forums?
P.P.S. Feel free to let me know if anything is confusing or if you find a mistake! I want these tutorials to be the best they can be, so, as they say, lay it on me.

[tirta]

Thanks FPSchazly for the tutorial.
I really appreciate it.
I am looking forward for the advanced tutorial. :D

[FPSchazly]

Thanks FPSchazly for the tutorial.
I really appreciate it.
I am looking forward for the advanced tutorial. :D

Glad to hear it! :salute:

[smithcorp]

Glad you have posted about these here. I've been watching the tutorials you've produced (as well as some of your play-throughs) and found then useful. I'm most of the way through the TMA one and it's damn good!

[FPSchazly]

Glad you have posted about these here. I've been watching the tutorials you've produced (as well as some of your play-throughs) and found then useful. I'm most of the way through the TMA one and it's damn good!

Thanks! :D

[Shkval]

Good one for an absolute beginner... but... you didn't show the most important stuff... the merging of bow and stern sensors/trackers data in waterfall (Master 01, Master 02 etc) and their usage in TMA. We know that crossing of bearing lines in TMA gives much more accurate picture about contact's heading, speed, distance etc.

1. First two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Approximate Distance, Unknown Speed, Unknown Course;

2. Second two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Exact Distance, Approximate Speed, Approximate Course;

3. Third two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Exact Distance, Exact Course, Very good idea of contact's speed.

It turns out that minimum time for a decent TMA solution is at least 6 minutes, the more time you have to observe contact, the better solution is! That's why the distance, i.e. first bearings crossings, is the most important part of the solution, it gives you the idea how much time you have! That is why the quietness of a sub is it's the most important feature... it comes down to "who hears who first"...

"Dangerous Waters" in difference of it's predecessor "Sub command" has one BIG flaw, the sensors (bow and towed arrays) are limited to exactly 10 NM... maybe 11 NM in clear weather, and their sensitivity is about the same... In "Sub Command" if you cannot hear a contact with bow sensors, but you can hear it with towed array you are pretty safe, and have enough time for tactical maneuvers... but that's another story...

[FPSchazly]

Good one for an absolute beginner... but... you didn't show the most important stuff... the merging of bow and stern sensors/trackers data in waterfall (Master 01, Master 02 etc) and their usage in TMA. We know that crossing of bearing lines in TMA gives much more accurate picture about contact's heading, speed, distance etc.

1. First two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Approximate Distance, Unknown Speed, Unknown Course;

2. Second two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Exact Distance, Approximate Speed, Approximate Course;

3. Third two bearings crossing gives: Exact Bearing, Exact Distance, Exact Course, Very good idea of contact's speed.

It turns out that minimum time for a decent TMA solution is at least 6 minutes, the more time you have to observe contact, the better solution is! That's why the distance, i.e. first bearings crossings, is the most important part of the solution, it gives you the idea how much time you have! That is why the quietness of a sub is it's the most important feature... it comes down to "who hears who first"...

"Dangerous Waters" in difference of it's predecessor "Sub command" has one BIG flaw, the sensors (bow and towed arrays) are limited to exactly 10 NM... maybe 11 NM in clear weather, and their sensitivity is about the same... In "Sub Command" if you cannot hear a contact with bow sensors, but you can hear it with towed array you are pretty safe, and have enough time for tactical maneuvers... but that's another story...

That's for another tutorial :D My goal here is baby steps. There's a lot to learn and I don't want to swamp people who have no idea what I'm doing (yet). But thank you for the input!

Also, the trackers for that need to update at the same time to get a reliable intersect in the TMA. More often than not, the intersect is not completely correct when you look at it on the TMA. On the other hand, the bearings to those contacts will update continuously on the Nav Map, as long as they have trackers, and that intersect does work in my experience.

[Pisces]

** I've searched through the rules but didn't find anything about this. Please let me know if this is frowned upon here! **...Making a tutorial is against the rules??? Don't be silly. Thumbs up to you.

[banryu79]

"Dangerous Waters" in difference of it's predecessor "Sub command" has one BIG flaw, the sensors (bow and towed arrays) are limited to exactly 10 NM... maybe 11 NM in clear weather, and their sensitivity is about the same... In "Sub Command" if you cannot hear a contact with bow sensors, but you can hear it with towed array you are pretty safe, and have enough time for tactical maneuvers... but that's another story...
And that's the #1 reason I use LWAMI and LWAMI is such a fantastic work!
This cap is removed, the acoustical model (or, if I understood well, the parameter set that model the behaviour of the acoustical model) is polished and the specific platforms acoustical profiles (Speed VS Noise, aso dependant on the type of propusion, nuclear, diesel-electric...) are adjust for all and each platform (and LWAMI have some new platforms in its database than stock DW).
This is the major (gameplay wise) difference between LWAMI and stock DW and... it rocks! :rock:

[Shkval]

Also, the trackers for that need to update at the same time to get a reliable intersect in the TMA.
Well... that's the catch... to track a contact with multiple sources of informations....great way for tracking surface contacts at very long range (not possible in DW because of aforementioned limitation of sensors), was merging of towed array LOB's and passive radar mast LOB's... of course you will have to bob the submarine up and down every two minutes between, let's say 40 meters, and radar mast depth... a bit cumbersome... but veeery efficient.

Also, don't trust your "one tool" (i.e. for example, only towed array) solutions... because you may get a nasty surprise when you add another LOB's source... he can be much much closer than you imagined... this usually leads to biting enemy torpedo...

One more thing... this whole thing doesn't work for Kilo class... they don't have towed array and their sensors are pretty weak... you'll have to use the "old fashion" way of periscope observing...

[banryu79]

Also, don't trust your "one tool" (i.e. for example, only towed array) solutions... because you may get a nasty surprise when you add another LOB's source... he can be much much closer than you imagined... this usually leads to biting enemy torpedo...

Well, in that case you can play it "safe" with a lag LOS... You can nail down the minimum range of your contact if I had understood it right.

[Shkval]

What is a lag LOS? Turning into a contact?

[banryu79]

What is a lag LOS? Turning into a contact?
I've red it here in the TACMAN:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=91

very useful knowledge :up:


P.S.: I think that turning directly to a contanc put ownship in a "point" LOS (btw LOS means Line Of Sound). There are different types of LOS, the most important, if I understand correctly the stuff I red in TACMAN and other sources about manual TMA, are three:
- lead LOS
- overlead LOS
- lag LOS

So if you could switch form overlead to lag or from lag to overlead (changing course and/or speed) you can nail down both the minimum and maximum range...

In overlead and lag you have a situation in which your LOBs converge and cross in a point. If you are in a overlead LOS the crossing point is the maximum possible range of the contact, else if you are on a lag LOS the crossing point is the minimum possible range.

[Shkval]

Ahhh... lead and lag course... multiple zig-zag's tricks... never liked it... too much time needed for usable solution...

[banryu79]

Ahhh... lead and lag course... multiple zig-zag's tricks... never liked it... too much time needed for usable solution...
Well, me too but not for the time involved but because I'm still in the process of learning more "basic" stuff first (for exampe my current aim is to familiarize myself better with the acustical aspects of the sim and the tactical considerations and situations involved, as I play with LWAMI).

In any case I understand this (TMA) analysis techniques are of capital value for manual TMA done when in multiplayer... Against the game AI they are not mandatory or neeeded but obviusly knowing them is not bad at all :)

One example? With the "trick" of the lag LOS that gives you the absolute minimum range from contact you could release a fish without risking to "overshoot" it (useful for a snapshot) or eliminate the danger of underestimating range to contact and do something stupid that gives away your presence and/or other information on you.

Another example? Always fire from a lag LOS, it is safer. Why? Try to think about what happen when you put a torpedo in the water inside acoustical range from your target (assume your target is a submarine, like yourself).

Your consideration about the time involved is not correct... I red a table in a document (do not rememebr which btw) that listed all possible type of TMA solutions obtainaible from the use of different combination of sensosrs array along with the minimum time to come with said solutions in both the case you use autocrew TMA versus manual TMA and.... the results was than in all (except one) cases (there were something like 14 different cases, IIRC) manual TMA is waaaaay faster to come to a valid solution then autocrew TMA.

[Bte I found the document in which I red about LOS and consideration applyed to TMA... It was the "Blue Book"]

[FPSchazly]

One more thing... this whole thing doesn't work for Kilo class... they don't have towed array and their sensors are pretty weak... you'll have to use the "old fashion" way of periscope observing...

Mmmmmmm it still works, as long as you can hear the enemy. Kilo is also so damn quiet so if no ones pinging you, you can just wait and listen. It's the same principle no matter what sensor you're using. I actually prefer making solutions on the spherical/cylindrical and conformal. You get the weird towed LOBs when the towed is straightening out after a turn.

[Polak2]

I watched some of the basic tutorials with great interest.

Thank you for all tutorials and I hope and suggest that they would continue through all platforms included in the simulation. I realize how much time that could take and in actuality have already taken for all videos published. Great advantage here is that they are much easier to understand and assimilate at first, than written manuals.

The biggest obstacle and often turn off for the newcomers is steep learning curve this sim requires from the user. So anything to make it easier even at basic level is most welcomed and appreciated.:rock:

[FPSchazly]

I watched some of the basic tutorials with great interest.

Thank you for all tutorials and I hope and suggest that they would continue through all platforms included in the simulation. I realize how much time that could take and in actuality have already taken for all videos published. Great advantage here is that they are much easier to understand and assimilate at first, than written manuals.

The biggest obstacle and often turn off for the newcomers is steep learning curve this sim requires from the user. So anything to make it easier even at basic level is most welcomed and appreciated.:rock:

Thanks so much! Glad it's helping. My plan is to cover all platforms, yes.

[Polak2]

Again , thank you for continuation of your tutorials. Just saw Dangerous Waters Tutorial 8: Cumulative 1/2 and I tell you that, for inexperienced person, this explains tactical procedures much better than a manual. There is so much there that just reading about could put you to bed. Please keep and when can we expect part 2.
The only platform I figured on my own to certain degree was a Sea-hawk, so there is a lot to cover. P3 hunting tactics would be something of interest for me next, or soon. Thanks :rock:

[FPSchazly]

Again , thank you for continuation of your tutorials. Just saw Dangerous Waters Tutorial 8: Cumulative 1/2 and I tell you that, for inexperienced person, this explains tactical procedures much better than a manual. There is so much there that just reading about could put you to bed. Please keep and when can we expect part 2.
The only platform I figured on my own to certain degree was a Sea-hawk, so there is a lot to cover. P3 hunting tactics would be something of interest for me next, or soon. Thanks :rock:

My plan is Part 2 this Sunday and then I'm going to also going to make videos showing the differences from the Los Angeles in the Akula, Seawolf, and Kilo this Sunday, also.

[banryu79]

My plan is Part 2 this Sunday and then I'm going to also going to make videos showing the differences from the Los Angeles in the Akula, Seawolf, and Kilo this Sunday, also.
Can't wait for these...:D
Thank you FPSchazly, the material you produce is great! :yeah:

[tirta]

FPSchazly,

thanks a lot for the new tutorials.
they are awesome, I really like them.

I am looking forward for more. :D :D :D

[FPSchazly]

Can't wait for these...:D
Thank you FPSchazly, the material you produce is great! :yeah:

FPSchazly,

thanks a lot for the new tutorials.
they are awesome, I really like them.

I am looking forward for more. :D :D :D

Glad my videos have been some help! :up:

[banryu79]

Glad my videos have been some help! :up:
I watched the "Cumulative" ones yesterday evening: pretty high quality tutorials, you are very good at it, imo. :woot:
DW wannabes are lucky you are feeling so passionate about the game; your videos deserves better visibility, imo. :hmmm:

[Polak2]

I watched the "Cumulative" ones yesterday evening: pretty high quality tutorials, you are very good at it, imo.
DW wannabes are lucky you are feeling so passionate about the game; your videos deserves better visibility, imo.
I entirely agree that those "cumulative" tutorials are done with great skill and good narrative. Thank you and keep them coming. It shows true aspect and character of submarine warfare in DW as being underwater chess game.
Perhaps for the complete beginners it maybe little overpowering, but for someone with knowledge of basics it is interesting to see what is the complex sequence of identifying, eliminating collateral traffic and tracking and killing right targets.
Looking forward to see similar tutorials for other platforms.

[scott613]

Hey - nice tutorial... ET1/SS - Battle Stations "Geo Plot" 85-91...

Regards,
Scott

[FPSchazly]

I watched the "Cumulative" ones yesterday evening: pretty high quality tutorials, you are very good at it, imo. :woot:
DW wannabes are lucky you are feeling so passionate about the game; your videos deserves better visibility, imo. :hmmm:

I entirely agree that those "cumulative" tutorials are done with great skill and good narrative. Thank you and keep them coming. It shows true aspect and character of submarine warfare in DW as being underwater chess game.
Perhaps for the complete beginners it maybe little overpowering, but for someone with knowledge of basics it is interesting to see what is the complex sequence of identifying, eliminating collateral traffic and tracking and killing right targets.
Looking forward to see similar tutorials for other platforms.

Hey - nice tutorial... ET1/SS - Battle Stations "Geo Plot" 85-91...

Regards,
Scott

Thanks so much, everyone! :D

[in_vino_vomitus]

What I like about these vids is that every time I watch them, something clicks that I'd missed before. Also I like the informal commentary style. Don't take this the wrong way - You obviously know what you're doing, but sometimes you sound like an absent minded professor - e.g.

"Ok - so this contact here is an Akula and he's really moving - and then we have a cruise ship and a freighter and wow! the sea state is really ridiculous - Ok - anyway so let's look at how fast the freighter's moving - Oh my gosh it's really close - and is that another hostile submarine? - Anyway, this is how we use the DEMON....."

I have visions of a first officer in the control room trying to catch your attention - "Er.. Sir? If we could just get back to the Akula? You know, the big deadly thing that's looking for us too?..."

First rate work anyway - Thanks for taking the time :)

[FPSchazly]

What I like about these vids is that every time I watch them, something clicks that I'd missed before. Also I like the informal commentary style. Don't take this the wrong way - You obviously know what you're doing, but sometimes you sound like an absent minded professor - e.g.

"Ok - so this contact here is an Akula and he's really moving - and then we have a cruise ship and a freighter and wow! the sea state is really ridiculous - Ok - anyway so let's look at how fast the freighter's moving - Oh my gosh it's really close - and is that another hostile submarine? - Anyway, this is how we use the DEMON....."

I have visions of a first officer in the control room trying to catch your attention - "Er.. Sir? If we could just get back to the Akula? You know, the big deadly thing that's looking for us too?..."

First rate work anyway - Thanks for taking the time :)

Haha, yeah definitely. That's something that just comes with knowing a lot, so I'll try my best to keep that from happening. :know: I gotta remember I can edit out dead space in post so I should just take a breath at a situation like that and figure out how I want to present my thoughts.

[in_vino_vomitus]

Haha, yeah definitely. That's something that just comes with knowing a lot, so I'll try my best to keep that from happening. :know: I gotta remember I can edit out dead space in post so I should just take a breath at a situation like that and figure out how I want to present my thoughts.

No - please don't. In case it didn't come across, I like the "stream of consciousness" style that you have - Especially since I tend to get target fixated and miss stuff, so it's a good reminder to stay aware of the complete picture - but mostly it's fun to listen to - I have to say though, if you feel like doing requests I'd dearly love some guidance on sorting out contact ambiguities on the FFG's Towed array....

[banryu79]

No - please don't. In case it didn't come across, I like the "stream of consciousness" style that you have - Especially since I tend to get target fixated and miss stuff, so it's a good reminder to stay aware of the complete picture - but mostly it's fun to listen to - I have to say though, if you feel like doing requests I'd dearly love some guidance on sorting out contact ambiguities on the FFG's Towed array....
I strongly quote in_vino_vomitus (what the heck of a nickname, btw :D)
I really like your commenting stye in your videos (found some funny stuff in your STAKER let's play too, lol), please don't change :D

[FPSchazly]

No - please don't. In case it didn't come across, I like the "stream of consciousness" style that you have - Especially since I tend to get target fixated and miss stuff, so it's a good reminder to stay aware of the complete picture - but mostly it's fun to listen to - I have to say though, if you feel like doing requests I'd dearly love some guidance on sorting out contact ambiguities on the FFG's Towed array....

I strongly quote in_vino_vomitus (what the heck of a nickname, btw :D)
I really like your commenting stye in your videos (found some funny stuff in your STAKER let's play too, lol), please don't change :D

Not a problem :haha: in_vino_vomitus' context clues made it sound like you were contrasting your appreciation of my stuff with that quote. It's fine, though. If you like it, good. That change was gonna be a long and hard one (that's what she said).

Also, I'm glad you checked out S.T.A.L.K.E.R., banryu :D My other videos don't get as much love haha

[FPSchazly]

...I have to say though, if you feel like doing requests I'd dearly love some guidance on sorting out contact ambiguities on the FFG's Towed array....

If you haven't seen, I just started the FFG tuts so I will get to that shortly :D

[in_vino_vomitus]

If you haven't seen, I just started the FFG tuts so I will get to that shortly :D

Nice one :)

[doomsniper]

If you haven't seen, I just started the FFG tuts so I will get to that shortly :D

What I do is stick a tracker on all the contacts and go into the navigation map and mark all the current bearings. Then turn to eliminate any ghost contacts.

[ljqcn101]

Just a test on my tool. Used the situation in the video at around 13 mins.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1218&pictureid=10302

[FPSchazly]

Just a test on my tool. Used the situation in the video at around 13 mins.


Cool, I saw your thread about the tool. What are the results of the test?

[ljqcn101]

Cool, I saw your thread about the tool. What are the results of the test?

Works well most of the time, but in some cases (such as the above one) when there're so many congested intersections between lines, the opencv line detector could fail to detect some portion of the line. But still it can give you some reliable TMA solutions.

And I couldn't find a way to add speed constraints since it's using image pixel coordinates. All I can do is to draw the solution on the image so you know where it is.

In the above example, the tool has found two solutions, displayed in green. And it seems the longer one is the 10-knot target we want.