beginner question on how to increase the target confidence level

[tirta]

Hi Guys,

I am a beginner to DW, since my last modern sub sim is janes 688,
and now I am rather overwhelmed with the complexity of DW.

Can somebody let me know how to increase the target confidence level to high?
I am playing with novice default setting with all autocrew on.
I am trying ASUW quick mission with 688,
my speed is 5 and my depth is above thermal layer,
I have changing courses several times to improve TMA,
however this does not seem to improve target confidence,
what did I do wrong?

How is the best way to learn this sim?
Is there any good tutorial?
Do you have any tips / guides for beginner?
Please advise.

[banryu79]

Can somebody let me know how to increase the target confidence level to high?

I have changing courses several times to improve TMA,
however this does not seem to improve target confidence,
what did I do wrong?

The game/autocrew wil not tocuh the "Target Confidence" value of a contact.
It is there just for your exclusive use as a "reminder" of YOUR confidence about a target ID (not about its TMA solution quality).

So you are the one that have to set it accordingly to your confidence about target ID. The usual convention AFAIK is:
- Low if more than 2 possible IDs could match the contact.
- Med if exactly 2 possible IDs could match the contact.
- High if exactly 1 ID match the contact(you have IDed your contact).

[tirta]

thanks for the reply, banryu79.

so what is the easiest way to ID the target?
with sonar or with periscope?

[banryu79]

thanks for the reply, banryu79.

so what is the easiest way to ID the target?
with sonar or with periscope?
Define "easiest way to ID a target" and I will able to respond :D
If your contact is a subsurface platform you cannot use the periscope to ID it, of course, nor his electronic emmission :)

Let's say it is a surface platform.
Which sensor array you use to ID it depends by the tactical situation you have in a given moment. Without discussionf tactical opportunieties, let's say the obvious things:

Periscope - if in range and you can see it you can take a photo with the scope, and then you can manipulate (AOB) and compare it with the patform database and find its class.

ESM - if the platform is emitting and you raise your ESM antenna you instantly have the exact bearing and its ID. The electronic signature is unique so no need to do any guesswork at all.

Sonar - if you can hear the patform on narrowband you can examine its acoustic signature. Depending on how well you hear it (range, acoustic conditions, strenght of signal) you will pick up one, two or more frequency components of its acoustic signature.
Then you can compare it (partial signature) with the acoustinc signature database and find how many profiles can match it. Many profiles? Clearly you have to do more guesswork/investigation/improve the signal... Two profiles only? You have a good ID estimation (Med confidence) and with an elimination process you can get just... One profile? High confidence, you know who they are.

Obviusly, the "sonar option" is not an instant "take away" as the Periscope or ESM are... so it requires more work on your part. For example: if you have intelligence data (info given to you in your mission briefing or in-mission communications) about it you can use it to eliminate some possibilities... If you can hear him on broadband you can use DEMON to obtain more info and again, eliminate some possibilities... and so on.


This is because in the vanilla game, many acoustic signatures are very similar to each other, and in order to uniquely ID a platform from its acoustic signature you have to pick up all its frequency components. I play with the LAWMI mod (that I strongly raccomend if one is interest in "realism"), and in this case the acoustic signature are "more" unique so usually I have to do less guesswork to isolate the candidate profiles to ID my contacs.

[FPSchazly]

Define "easiest way to ID a target" and I will able to respond :D
If your contact is a subsurface platform you cannot use the periscope to ID it, of course, nor his electronic emmission :)

Let's say it is a surface platform.
Which sensor array you use to ID it depends by the tactical situation you have in a given moment. Without discussionf tactical opportunieties, let's say the obvious things:

Periscope - if in range and you can see it you can take a photo with the scope, and then you can manipulate (AOB) and compare it with the patform database and find its class.

ESM - if the platform is emitting and you raise your ESM antenna you instantly have the exact bearing and its ID. The electronic signature is unique so no need to do any guesswork at all.

Sonar - if you can hear the patform on narrowband you can examine its acoustic signature. Depending on how well you hear it (range, acoustic conditions, strenght of signal) you will pick up one, two or more frequency components of its acoustic signature.
Then you can compare it (partial signature) with the acoustinc signature database and find how many profiles can match it. Many profiles? Clearly you have to do more guesswork/investigation/improve the signal... Two profiles only? You have a good ID estimation (Med confidence) and with an elimination process you can get just... One profile? High confidence, you know who they are.

Obviusly, the "sonar option" is not an instant "take away" as the Periscope or ESM are... so it requires more work on your part. For example: if you have intelligence data (info given to you in your mission briefing or in-mission communications) about it you can use it to eliminate some possibilities... If you can hear him on broadband you can use DEMON to obtain more info and again, eliminate some possibilities... and so on.


This is because in the vanilla game, many acoustic signatures are very similar to each other, and in order to uniquely ID a platform from its acoustic signature you have to pick up all its frequency components. I play with the LAWMI mod (that I strongly raccomend if one is interest in "realism"), and in this case the acoustic signature are "more" unique so usually I have to do less guesswork to isolate the candidate profiles to ID my contacs.

All great info, well done!

If you're close enough to a contact, you might be able to pick them up on both the towed array and the spherical/cylindrical. The towed array is much better at detecing low frequencies and the cylindrical is better at the high frequencies. So, using those two sensors, and assuming you're close enough, that's how you can pretty much nail down what a contact is with sonar.

However, this method can get tricky if there are a lot of contacts on your sonar as it can be difficult to tell if you're looking at one or multiple tracks on sonar between the towed and the spherical. This is because the towed and spherical are in physically different locations so they'll have different bearings to the contact.

[banryu79]

However, this method can get tricky if there are a lot of contacts on your sonar as it can be difficult to tell if you're looking at one or multiple tracks on sonar between the towed and the spherical. This is because the towed and spherical are in physically different locations so they'll have different bearings to the contact.
Mmm... I didn't thought about it (and didn't know it or read it before) :hmm2:
I'm not sure to have understand you well... Let's try with an example.
We are on course 000 and there is (Truth on) a single surface platform at general bearing 75... (Truth off now) and we pick it up on the towed array and also on the spherical array. Well, are you teling that we are picking it up in two sligthly different bearings (with respect to the two different sonar arrays)?

(Forgive me if the choosen 75° bearing is misleading because it doesn't fall inside the scanning range of one of the two sonsar array, I do not remeber the correct ranges ATM).

[FPSchazly]

Mmm... I didn't thought about it (and didn't know it or read it before) :hmm2:
I'm not sure to have understand you well... Let's try with an example.
We are on course 000 and there is (Truth on) a single surface platform at general bearing 75... (Truth off now) and we pick it up on the towed array and also on the spherical array. Well, are you teling that we are picking it up in two sligthly different bearings (with respect to the two different sonar arrays)?

(Forgive me if the choosen 75° bearing is misleading because it doesn't fall inside the scanning range of one of the two sonsar array, I do not remeber the correct ranges ATM).

I'm pretty sure that bearing is out of the baffles for both arrays.

But, yes! If you classify the same contact with the different arrays, you will have slightly different bearings. Obviously at closer ranges this difference will be more pronounced. Also at closer ranges, you can use this difference in bearings to give you a loose approximation of range to target. If you zoom in really close to your ownship on the navmap, you will see that the lines of bearing from the towed and the spherical/cylindrical originate from different points.

[banryu79]

If you zoom in really close to your ownship on the navmap, you will see that the lines of bearing from the towed and the spherical/cylindrical originate from different points.
Five minutes after posting my last message and disconnetting from the internet I re-thought about it, remebered that the towed array is "very long" and layed behind the platform and finally I realized that means of course there is an offset between the two sensor arrays! :shucks:

Thanks for the explanation, FPSchazly :salute:

[tirta]

@banryu79
Thanks for the explanation.
By raising ESM antenna, does it make my sub easier to detect?

I am not familiar with LWAMI mods,
does it make the game harder or easier to play?
How is it compared to dwx 1.38?



@FPSchazly
Wow, you have lots of interesting dw videos on youtube. :up:
Thanks for uploading all of them.
I am going to start watching your tutorials first.

[banryu79]

@banryu79
Thanks for the explanation.
By raising ESM antenna, does it make my sub easier to detect?

You are welcome, tirta.
Well, try to think about it: raising your esm antenna or your periscope out of the water surface what kind of consequences could have? The most obvious ones are that they could be detected by radar, for example.

Then, if you think more about it you could realize that in order to stick the antenna/radar/periscope out of the water you first need to take your sub very near the water surface... If the weather is good, in daylight hours, someone on an airplane/helo could see the sub silhouette... (I do not know if this is modeled in DW but I like to think in this way... :)).

And that's more: coming to shallow waters could means that you are (for example) forced to come above the layer (if there is one) if you were running under it with all the consequences of the case.

Another consideration: in daylight hours periscope/esm could be detected visually, too.
So it is more risky to stick them out then during nighttime.

If they will be detected or not depends on many factors, like the weather(clear/rough sea), range to nearest enemy platform, how long you keep them out in plain view and so on...

As you understand, using them can get you an almost instant ID of a surface contact but it also brings home some risks. So, it is your job as a skipper to weight the risks/benefits aspects and factor them into your current tactical situation to come to a conclusion about what to do or don't do :)

@banryu79
I am not familiar with LWAMI mods,
does it make the game harder or easier to play?
How is it compared to dwx 1.38?

I do not know if LWAMI make the game "easier" or "harder"... I have a too little experience with the game to judge anything... I just played a couple of missions, currently I'm more concentrated playing SHIII and I'll dive (no pun intended) into DW somewhere in the future.

But I can tell you that my IMPRESSION is that LWAMI make the gameplay quite different from vanilla DW. Mostly because it improves (very much, IMO) it's acustic model both in the general and in the specific platform sense. The overall improvements are too many to list them here; if you are really intrested you should download the mod itself an read the detailed and comprehensive manual inside it.
Even if you will not use it, it is intresting reading (to know the limitation of vanilla DW).

I know LAWMI also improve the doctrine files, and in doing this it corrects some quirks and minor bugs of the AI behaviour.

[FPSchazly]

@banryu79
@FPSchazly
Wow, you have lots of interesting dw videos on youtube. :up:
Thanks for uploading all of them.
I am going to start watching your tutorials first.

Thanks! I hope you enjoy :D

You are welcome, tirta.
Well, try to think about it: raising your esm antenna or your periscope out of the water surface what kind of consequences could have? The most obvious ones are that they could be detected by radar, for example.

Then, if you think more about it you could realize that in order to stick the antenna/radar/periscope out of the water you first need to take your sub very near the water surface... If the weather is good, in daylight hours, someone on an airplane/helo could see the sub silhouette... (I do not know if this is modeled in DW but I like to think in this way... :)).

And that's more: coming to shallow waters could means that you are (for example) forced to come above the layer (if there is one) if you were running under it with all the consequences of the case.

Another consideration: in daylight hours periscope/esm could be detected visually, too.
So it is more risky to stick them out then during nighttime.

If they will be detected or not depends on many factors, like the weather(clear/rough sea), range to nearest enemy platform, how long you keep them out in plain view and so on...

As you understand, using them can get you an almost instant ID of a surface contact but it also brings home some risks. So, it is your job as a skipper to weight the risks/benefits aspects and factor them into your current tactical situation to come to a conclusion about what to do or don't do :)

Yeah, I dunno if these things make a difference, either. I feel like someone might be able to get a visual track on a periscope but I don't think I've ever experienced a mast being detected by radar. Either way, I do try and play with respect to the real-life considerations you listed just to make it more fun and interesting :D

[banryu79]

Yeah, I dunno if these things make a difference, either. I feel like someone might be able to get a visual track on a periscope but I don't think I've ever experienced a mast being detected by radar. Either way, I do try and play with respect to the real-life considerations you listed just to make it more fun and interesting :D
Indeed. I remeber that I have found a post in a thread in the DW section of this forum where I red that periscope/esm/masts are not visually detectable...
But who cares? *I* think they are and play accordingly.

However, I also remember that there is (in the game) a "real" adverse consequence about running your submarine with one or more mast raised, something along the line of generating more noise...

[tirta]

Thanks for all the information, banryu79 & FPSchazly.
I learn a lot by reading your replies.

I have just found out that seawolf and 688 have 2 towed arrays.
Do I need to use both of them or one is enough?

[banryu79]

I have just found out that seawolf and 688 have 2 towed arrays.
Do I need to use both of them or one is enough?
Don't know about the SeaWolf, I have always used the 688(i) as a platform, till now.

I cannot speak for stock DW, as I play with LWAMI.
In the 688 the two TA are different: one (don't remember if port or starboard) is the "thin" array the other the "broad" one.

The "thin" array is "more sensible" and that means it could potentially detect contacts at greater range and it will wash out at a lower speed than the "broad" one. So the choice of which one to listent to in a given moment depends on the tactical situation at hand. You can stream both of them, if you want, and then switch to the choosen one in the "navigation" screen before going to the broadband/narrowband TA screen.

[FPSchazly]

Don't know about the SeaWolf, I have always used the 688(i) as a platform, till now.

I cannot speak for stock DW, as I play with LWAMI.
In the 688 the two TA are different: one (don't remember if port or starboard) is the "thin" array the other the "broad" one.

The "thin" array is "more sensible" and that means it could potentially detect contacts at greater range and it will wash out at a lower speed than the "broad" one. So the choice of which one to listent to in a given moment depends on the tactical situation at hand. You can stream both of them, if you want, and then switch to the choosen one in the "navigation" screen before going to the broadband/narrowband TA screen.

OK, that might be different in LWAMI. In stock DW, both 688I toweds are the same and it's the Seawolf that has the 'thin' and 'thick' towed arrays.

In that case, in stock DW, the starboard array on the Seawolf is the more sensitive one (TB-29). I think that's the default one. 'Stream the starboard towed array. Helm, aye,' sounds more common to me than the port array lol

[Pisces]

...You can stream both of them, if you want, and then switch to the choosen one in the "navigation" screen before going to the broadband/narrowband TA screen.Seriously!?! I can have both of them without reeling in the one that I am not using? :/\\!!

[banryu79]

Seriously!?! I can have both of them without reeling in the one that I am not using? :/\\!!
Err... yes, sir. :salute:

I too had doubts about it and wondered if it was at all possible so I made the most simple thing to test it: tryed and streamed one TA, then the other one: it worked!
AFAIR I had this doubt because the manual section about the 688(i) platform says something along the line that you cannot stream both the TA... They obviousy meant to say you cannot stream both of them at the same time in the sense that the streaming mechanism can be attached to only one TA at time (I think, it make sense)... but you can surely have both the TA layed out. They choose a sligthly misleading way to explain it, I think. :)

[tirta]

I have tried using both of them in 688,
so yes, banryu79 is correct. :up:

[FPSchazly]

Err... yes, sir. :salute:

I too had doubts about it and wondered if it was at all possible so I made the most simple thing to test it: tryed and streamed one TA, then the other one: it worked!
AFAIR I had this doubt because the manual section about the 688(i) platform says something along the line that you cannot stream both the TA... They obviousy meant to say you cannot stream both of them at the same time in the sense that the streaming mechanism can be attached to only one TA at time (I think, it make sense)... but you can surely have both the TA layed out. They choose a sligthly misleading way to explain it, I think. :)

Quote from the manual errata:


Text in the description of the towed array is in error:

- Click PORT or STARBOARD to select that array to be streamed.
Only one towed array can be deployed at a time.

The bolded text should read:

- Click PORT or STARBOARD to select that array to be streamed.
Only one towed array need be deployed at a time.

I've never tried it myself as I don't really see the need :D

[Pisces]

Damn, only learned this after what? ... 9 years?

But I suspect in real life you would have a serious risk of them getting tangled up. So you will loose both in one go. Not good.

[banryu79]

But I suspect in real life you would have a serious risk of them getting tangled up. So you will loose both in one go. Not good.
Mmm... right, that make sense, I never thought about this :hmmm:
It would be nice to know if in RL they never stream both arrays or how much it is risky...

I'm thinking of keeping both streamed for only 1/3 of their length so I could reel in one very quickly in case of need (i.e. until situational awareness is established and I choose a tactical behaviour that promote better sensibility VS higher speed).

[banryu79]

Damn, only learned this after what? ... 9 years?

But I suspect in real life you would have a serious risk of them getting tangled up. So you will loose both in one go. Not good.
I recently red a useful tactic that involves the use of both TA.
You place yourself just above the thermal layer, and lay out one TA at 1/3 length to listen above the layer (of course you shoud travel at an appropriate speed) and the other TA to 1/2 to full length to listen below it.

[Pisces]

Yes, that makes sense to listen to both sides of the layer with a Towed Array.

In regards to streamed length, fully streamed length doesn't seem to help much in sensitivity it seems. At least in game. To reduce time it takes for the the baffles to swing after a turn it is usually sufficient to stream the TA only 1/3rd. Or 1/4th if it is also shallow.

Last week I dug up the manual errata of the game, and clearly read it on the first page:

[quoute]The 688(I)’s towed arrays can be deployed at the
same time; however, this is not recommended in shallow water. [/quote]Now, if they only clarified why not to use them both in shallow water.

[FPSchazly]

Last week I dug up the manual errata of the game, and clearly read it on the first page:

The 688(I)’s towed arrays can be deployed at the
same time; however, this is not recommended in shallow water. Now, if they only clarified why not to use them both in shallow water.

I'm only speculating, but I'm imagining the reasoning could deal with the fact that in shallow water, the bottom is easily accessible and constantly at varying differences as you're steaming around. Another possible reason is that shallow water is probably much more turbulent and random compared to the open ocean that mostly has just a consistent current, in terms of the toweds getting tangled.

[Pisces]

I'm only speculating, but I'm imagining the reasoning could deal with the fact that in shallow water, the bottom is easily accessible and constantly at varying differences as you're steaming around. Another possible reason is that shallow water is probably much more turbulent and random compared to the open ocean that mostly has just a consistent current, in terms of the toweds getting tangled.As a real-life advice
I would understand that. But if this entanglement realism isn't modelled (I doubt it is) then it shouldn't be mentioned, especially a manual errata.

[banryu79]

Could it possibly have to do with noise produced if the array touch the bottom? 2 array on the bottom ar noiser than just one :)

I mean, if the in-game effects of a TA on the bottom is not only the obvious washout of the array itself but also a slight production of noise (in the broadband spectrum I suppose) for the boat itself. :hmmm:

[Pisces]

Could it possibly have to do with noise produced if the array touch the bottom? 2 array on the bottom ar noiser than just one :)

I mean, if the in-game effects of a TA on the bottom is not only the obvious washout of the array itself but also a slight production of noise (in the broadband spectrum I suppose) for the boat itself. :hmmm:The errata specifically says you cannot use both at the same time. So the noise of the other does not, or cannot if it speaks the truth, add together to the one that is selected.

And realistically speaking, the own noise perceived by a dragging sensor would be much stronger than what is perceived from a nearby dragging sensor a couple of yards away. As the distance of where the sound comes from is much more nearer, and thus stronger. Sound levels (decibells) do not really add anyway, as they are really fractions or ratios.

[banryu79]

And realistically speaking, the own noise perceived by a dragging sensor would be much stronger than what is perceived from a nearby dragging sensor a couple of yards away. As the distance of where the sound comes from is much more nearer, and thus stronger. Sound levels (decibells) do not really add anyway, as they are really fractions or ratios.
Yes, I concur, but I was speaking about an increment in Ownship Passive Source Level -- aka you produce more noise and that increases the risk to be counterdetected... Still your observation about the fact that two sound levels in decibel doesn't simpy add up still apply, so I suppose that one VS two TA running against the bottom do not make a significant difference. :yep:

[Pisces]

I suspect a dragging TA could be detected in real life depending on the speed and the distance or the receiver. But I have nothing to substantiate that claim, and no naval experience.

Also, the concern of a dragging TA is more important in terms of lack of sensors(and damage to it), than as a source of noise. You would never want this anyway. 1 or 2 TAs doesn't matter, as you'll be at a tactical disadvantage anyhow.