Impacts torpeoes

[Gibus]

Hello,
I wonder if anyone knows how to increase the impact resistance of ships by torpedoes.
I tried to change "ArmorLevel" and "Hits_points" in the *.zon file, but nothing works.
Thank you in advance.

Gibus

[ETR3(SS)]

Try making weaker torpedoes? Not sure why you want the ships to be more resilient.

[Gibus]

At home, we said, "Tell me what you want, I'll tell you how to do without." :D

Seriously, I do not find it very realistic that we can sink Shokaku with a single torpedo, then it takes four to Taiyo. So I want to fix that.

[Webster]

Hello,
I wonder if anyone knows how to increase the impact resistance of ships by torpedoes.
I tried to change "ArmorLevel" and "Hits_points" in the *.zon file, but nothing works.
Thank you in advance.

Gibus

well it takes more then a little change to have an affect so if the ship has 400 hit points cut it in half and change that to 200. if you change it from 400 to 375 or 350 you wont be able to see any difference, also the torpedo you are using makes a huge difference so make sure you are testing with the least powerful torpedo so that you don't end up with an indestructible ship.

"some" ships in this game just don't act right and it takes very irregular and seemingly silly settings to get the results your looking for. this can be the case for anything you change in the zon or sim files so one ship works as expected with the change you make and the next ship may not show any effects from your changes. sadly there is a lot of this in the game and it may be misdirected code or files reading the wrong ships data, who knows :06: but it can be very frustrating so take your time and do lots of testing for strange side effects resulting from the changes you make.

At home, we said, "Tell me what you want, I'll tell you how to do without." :D

Seriously, I do not find it very realistic that we can sink Shokaku with a single torpedo, then it takes four to Taiyo. So I want to fix that.

I suggest you set the shokaku to the same armor and hit point levels as the taiyo and see what that does, if its too much you can dial it back.

AFAIK carriers were not heavily armored so they relied on speed to get away from danger so I would look for a happy medium by looking for it to take an average of two and sometimes 3 but never less then 2 torpedos to sink either carrier.


NOTE: BEFORE GOING TOO FAR WITH ALL THIS

what I suggest you do first is use my draft fix mod because it fixes the draft heights on ships and many of the carriers sit too high and turn over after one torpedo and they sink from turning over and flooding NOT from the one torpedo doing it.

I also made a mission to test torpedo damage in my torpedo mods so you can use that mission to test each ship and how mant torpedoes it takes to sink them. it can be very useful when modding torpedos or ship damages

[Gibus]

Thank you for your reply.
I already do that, indeed.
But if I put the values ​​of Taiyo to Shokaku, I do not get the desired result. Likewise if I put values ​​Shokaku to Taiyo, it still takes four torpedoes.
I wonder if there are no other values ​​to change, but which? Spheres, boxes? Other file?

Shokaku: ArmorLevel = 35, Hit_points=550 -> 1 torpedo
Taiyo: ArmorLevel=20, Hit_points=500 -> 4 torpedoes
In view of these values alone, it hardly seems consistent ...

I did a test with values ​​Yamato (AL=96, HP=1500) no change.

For testing, I did a single mission with two aircraft carriers. Torpedoes are MK-18, set at 6 meters (about 18 feet) with influence. With no dud torpedoes.

[Warren Peace]

I guess I'd have two questions, the most important of which is are you running Vanilla or modded (and if so, which mods)?

As a follow-up to that, where are your torps hitting? The only time I've taken down the Shokaku with a single-torp I hit the fuel-bunkers dead on, catastrophic explosion and she went down, but beyond something like that it should be nigh-impossible to one-shot the Shokaku solely based on torpedo damage, so I suspect there's something else at play here.

[Gibus]

Your question is struck good sense. I play with TMO 2.5, but this mod does not change the values ​​of the *. zon file.
On the Shokaku, I aim the mast located forward of the bridge. Unstoppable.

That aside, it does not answer the fundamental question: how to increase the impact resistance of torpedoes?
I took these two units (Shokaku and Taiyo) for example, but there are many others.

[Warren Peace]

Apologies for taking so long to reply, life issues keep cropping up. Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar with TMO and haven't had a chance to play around with it, although I know the damage model is loosely based on Vanilla. That being said, I'm fairly certain there are certain areas on every ship that are exceedingly prone to damage in vanilla, it's possible that area of the Shokaku is one of them.

[Gibus]

Apologies for taking so long to reply, life issues keep cropping up.
No problem.

I tried to analyze the files I think they play a role: zones.cfg and *.zon files.

1. What I think I understand :
- The first section of the zones.cfg file declares ( I write "declares" intentionally because of the open parenthesis below) all the different areas of all ships which may cause damage and ultimately the destruction of the boat.
I open a parenthesis that the box 49 includes a misspelling : hidrophone without "y" which makes me wonder : with such a challenge is that the link is good and if it does correct fault?
- The following sections define the parameters of fragility according to the type of vessel in which if ArmorLevel is -1, the value defined in the *.zon file is applied. Ditto for the other parameters.
- *.zon files affect each unit a total number of points ( Hits_points ) . The ship is destroyed when the sum of the different boxes Hits_Points reached the global level. I concluded that more Hits_Points the higher the boat is difficult to sink . This does not seem to check (see § 3).

2. What I did not understand:
- The zones.cfg file contains a NEW ESCORT section . This suggests that there should be a OLD ESCORT section, but where?
- The same file contains a section in which battleships were two subsections to the keel: KeelB and KeelBB . This suggests that the battleships separated into 2 categories. How do I know who lives where ?
- In the same section Battleships , one sees two sub- sections: [FlotabilityFisher] and [SampanFlotability] . Although there was a damn sampans , one wonders what these two doing here stuff. This casts serious doubt on the design of the program ...
- Always in the same section there is a sub- section on the bridge of the aircraft carrier (assuming ... ) . The carrier is not shielded in their belt , can we logically conclude that everything about the impact resistance of torpedoes is not listed here but elsewhere ?
- *.zon files include boxes and spheres. All that is lighter cruiser and more big ships spheres bow to stern. Destroyers have only one sphere at the engine room or almost , except the big Akizuki who understands both. Yet in general, but this is not an absolute rule , it takes more torpedoes to sink a small Fubuki 1,700 tonnes a big Akizuki 2,700 tons! Hence the question: what are the spheres?

3. My trials :
- I increased the value of Hits_Points 500 to 800 for Shokaku, which according to my assumptions should give more points, so take several torpedoes. No significant difference.
- In addition, for Akizuki.zon file, I noticed that a number of the boxes were affected ArmorLevel value = -1.00003 , which seemed to me extremely curious. If we say that -1 refers to the total value of the boat, I do not see why there would decimal places . Especially since by default, this value has only decimal . So the author of this return value manually with intent , which departs the assumption of an error without the knowledge of his own volition. Although weird stuff.
After correcting all the boxes , the tests did not reveal any quantifiable.

In conclusion, I do not seek why there are inconsistencies but I'm looking for how to fix it.

My English is not very good. I hope I have made ​​clear my thoughts ...

[Gibus]

Hello all,

I am very very lonely ...

[jscharpf]

Sorry I won't be any help but I have many of the same questions and I am following this thread very closely because I like how you are trying to analyze it and I admire your persistence! :salute:

Jeff

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

After searching far and wide in the bowels of the *. dat and *. zon files, it seems that the spheres and boxes are not the determining factor of the impact resistance of torpedoes. Hit_points, either.
The more we look, the less we find ourselves.
So if a good soul skill could put us on the right track ...
Thank you.

[TorpX]

I think your problem is related to how the ships in the game sink.

Ships can sink by damage exceeding the total number of hit points (in the zon file), that is, the hull is basically torn apart.

Or

Ships can sink by too many compartments flooding, and loss of buoyancy.

If your subject vessel is sinking by the second mode, dialing up the *.zon file hit points will probably not help.

However, this is just a guess on my part. I've never tried to mod the guts of the damage system. My understanding is only based on what I've read here on the forum.

Sorting out why a certain ship doesn't behave sensibly would probably entail a methodical, detailed line by line comparison in the boxes of the *.dat file. If you have already done this, and can find no reason for the problem, than I don't know what to suggest.

As far as testing is concerned, I would suggest modding the torpedoes so they give the same damage all the time. Otherwise, you are left with a very large random factor in your tests.

[Gibus]

As far as testing is concerned, I would suggest modding the torpedoes so they give the same damage all the time. Otherwise, you are left with a very large random factor in your tests.
Thank you for your reply.

On tests, they are conducted with the utmost rigor, in a single mission specially designed for it.

Beyond tests conducted on Shokaku and Tayio, explained previously, I have a glaring example with CA Deutschland (15,000 tons) in that it only takes one torpedo to see literally explode, regardless of the impact point, bow to stern.
All trials by varying the Armor_Level and Hit_points parameters, in every sense, have no tangible results.
And this brings me back invariably to the essential question: how can we do?

I can not bring myself to believe that on this wonderful site, nobody knows ...

[Webster]

the problem is that some ships in the game have broken code and sometimes you just cant do things you want but there are sometimes other ways to get where you want to be so try looking at ammo stores or cargo for that ship and that might be what triggers the explosion.

I don't want to say that some ships just cant be fixed but there are some in the game that don't follow the normal rules as far as what files control them so changes mode little or no difference.

personally I think its because some ships are using code from other ships to control them so this CA might be using the ship damage codes for say a DD as an example.

its all in the coding of the game and would mean digging deep into that to make sure the game is looking at and using the correct damage file for each ship

[TorpX]

...
personally I think its because some ships are using code from other ships to control them so this CA might be using the ship damage codes for say a DD as an example.

its all in the coding of the game and would mean digging deep into that to make sure the game is looking at and using the correct damage file for each ship

If this is what is happening, (and I'll stipulate you know better than I), would it be possible to rename the problem ship, and all the associated files, to fix this?

[Webster]

If this is what is happening, (and I'll stipulate you know better than I), would it be possible to rename the problem ship, and all the associated files, to fix this?



I had always thought so that if you added the troubled ship as though you added a new ship to the game and replaced the troubled files with ones from a ship that the files work correctly then it should "in theory" solve the issue.

no one ever seamed to care enough about a handful of ships that files changes didn't seam to have the desired effects. I guess they just didn't want to go through all that work for what I assume they thought was a minor unimportant issue when compared with everything else in the game that needed attention

what I figured needed to be done was to find a ship that all the peramiters seamed to function correctly and changes to values all had the expected results or close to it then copy those files to a separate work area and make back up copies for the inevitable screw-ups lol, then strip out the identification aspects and code address and change them to the desired ships name.

now here is where it gets tricky, do you simply replace the core controlling files to look for the game files for that ship such as damage and sim, dat, zon, or make those files new as well which is probably needed as well. how far down the rabbit hole do you need to go with this is the question and I suspect everything will need to be done from scratch new to avoid being stuck back in the buggy code that wasn't working for those ships.

IMO the problem became when the devs got lazy or it was required to do so because of timing issues, and they simply copied other ship files and renamed them so the game uses a lot of "recycled" files that were just renamed and they may have missed some of the changes that needed to be made for whatever reasons. since they were already working files they were just looking for the wrong game control files for that particular ship.

now you see where something that sounds simple and easy can get very involved if you want to try and fix and repair the files to look for the right things or do you want to recreate the files completely for each ship as the devs most likely intended if they had the time to.

[Gibus]

personally I think its because some ships are using code from other ships to control them so this CA might be using the ship damage codes for say a DD as an example.

Bonjour,

What you say is true for the cloned units.
I had already explored this track first but it fails. The three examples I posted here (Shokaku, Tayio, Deutchland) are not "modded" ships (vanilla game), and do not involve a parent unit.

Anyway, thank you for your interest in the problem.

[TorpX]

I had always thought so that if you added the troubled ship as though you added a new ship to the game and replaced the troubled files with ones from a ship that the files work correctly then it should "in theory" solve the issue.

no one ever seamed to care enough about a handful of ships that files changes didn't seam to have the desired effects. I guess they just didn't want to go through all that work for what I assume they thought was a minor unimportant issue when compared with everything else in the game that needed attention....


Yes, I can certainly understand there are lots of things in the game that could use attention.

It's too bad we don't have some better tools; like a real-time display of hit points/buoyancy/etc. as a target suffers damage, so we would know what is really going on.

[Webster]

Yes, I can certainly understand there are lots of things in the game that could use attention.

It's too bad we don't have some better tools; like a real-time display of hit points/buoyancy/etc. as a target suffers damage, so we would know what is really going on.




my biggest pet peeve is the death screen cut off, I want to see the sub die and flood not just spin off in birds eye view telling me I sunk from damage or flooding. I would rather experience it happening then when its obvious you can do the cut away scene but it comes way too early IMHO and ruins the immersion of it. the worst is say if you are surfaced in a battle to the death you know your going to lose but cant fight until you sink because the game decides you have had enough. I want the game to wait until I actually sink from damage to give me a death screen so I can experience the fight to the death.

sadly the only solution ever found to this was to make the sub indestructible so only flooding kills it and that ruins every other form of damage effect so its just way too unrealistic.

[TorpX]

Yeah, I can understand that.

The thing about the death screen business, that I don't like is that we might hit a mine, or be blasted by a plane coming through the clouds, but not really know what happened. How many posts have we seen by people asking what killed them? At least SHCE would tell you what killed you.

[Popeye the Salior]

At home, we said, "Tell me what you want, I'll tell you how to do without." :D

Seriously, I do not find it very realistic that we can sink Shokaku with a single torpedo, then it takes four to Taiyo. So I want to fix that.

Japanmese weren't great at damage control at all they didn't have great watertight compartmilaztion.

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

Thank you for your reply but my initial question was: how to increase the resistance of ships at torpedoes impacts.

To answer your comments:
June 19, 1944 at 11:22, Shokaku was hit by three torpedoes fired by USS Cavalla and sank at 14:01, nearly three hours later.
October 25, 1944, sister-ship Zuikaku sank after being hit by 9 bombs and 8 torpedoes.

[Webster]

Bonjour,

Thank you for your reply but my initial question was: how to increase the resistance of ships at torpedoes impacts.

To answer your comments:
June 19, 1944 at 11:22, Shokaku was hit by three torpedoes fired by USS Cavalla and sank at 14:01, nearly three hours later.
October 25, 1944, sister-ship Zuikaku sank after being hit by 9 bombs and 8 torpedoes.

use a combination of hit points and armor levels to get the desired affect, trying to do it with just one value may lead to strange unintended side effects.

[Gibus]

This is indeed true.
For the tests I performed multiple combinations. Hence my conclusion, perhaps hasty, that Armor_Level and Hit_Points are not the dominant parameters to address the problem.

[Webster]

This is indeed true.
For the tests I performed multiple combinations. Hence my conclusion, perhaps hasty, that Armor_Level and Hit_Points are not the dominant parameters to address the problem.

they are the dominant parameters its just that for "some" ships those values don't register for that ship so some "other" ships parameters are being used by the game for that ship making the files you are editing basically useless.

where it gets fuzzy is its not all the values in the file, sometimes its the draft or the center point of gravity or the guns that have issues so a file may work fine for 5 out of 6 parameters then you find one that doesn't respond to your changes because some coding error has it using some unknown ships file you aren't working on.

some ships have only submerged draft heights and some have surface draft heights and some have both. when I did my draft fix mod I found I had to delete the submerged drafts for those ships before the game would use my surfaced draft heights. there is a lot of buggy code in the game so you have to play detective and seek out what could be controlling it if the values you are changing have no effect

[Gibus]

There is a lot of buggy code in the game so you have to play detective and seek out what could be controlling it if the values you are changing have no effect
Bonjour,
I understand. I think I'll stop using the sun. :hmmm:

[TorpX]

some ships have only submerged draft heights and some have surface draft heights and some have both.

I've wondered about that.

[Gibus]

Bonjour,

After extensive research, and thanks to my friend Jean74 also registered on this forum, the reason for the fragility of CA Deutchland (which explodes at the first torpedo) was identified.
This is a big bug in the file NCA_Deutchland.zon about 12 collision spheres.
After correction, 4 torpedoes are now needed to sink the pocket battleship.

Thank you to those who participated in this thread.

Gibus

[Webster]

Bonjour,

After extensive research, and thanks to my friend Jean74 also registered on this forum, the reason for the fragility of CA Deutchland (which explodes at the first torpedo) was identified.
This is a big bug in the file NCA_Deutchland.zon about 12 collision spheres.
After correction, 4 torpedoes are now needed to sink the pocket battleship.

Thank you to those who participated in this thread.

Gibus

please post the fix or upload the fix as a small mod file so others can get their games working better as well

[Gibus]

With pleasure. The patch is made and ready to be published.
Would you explain to me the procedure, with simple words because my knowledge of English does not allow me to do it without help.

[TorpX]

I would also be interested in details about the bug. Do you think the same kind of bug is present in the Shokaku and others?

Anyway, it is good you were able to figure it out. :up:

[Gibus]

I would also be interested in details about the bug.

That will not be easy because of my English, but I'll try.

I will not go into the details of operation between:


spheres collision
boxes compartments
the thickness of the shield (armor level)
hits points

are not sure of their relation and balance.

In contrast, is known with certainty: the spheres must have the Type = -1. If Type = 0, to the first torpedo impact all points of life other boxes are eaten causing immediate destruction of the ship. Deutschland. zon contains 12 spheres type = 0.
I conducted a verification test with Yamato changing one sphere at random: she is sprayed to the first torpedo.

On the Shokaku, there is no bug of this nature, except a sphere whose type = -1.000003, but the correction does not bring any visible change.
It is perhaps a box or more beyond the shell??
It is very difficult to understand because we do not know the unit of measurement of the coordinates of boxes in 3 dimensions (X, Y and Z). Some coordinates are defined with 8 decimal places. One wonders why this is so accurate?

Here, I hope I was clear enough ...

If you want to patch mod Deutschland, you just tell me how to publish it. Also it contains a Read-Me file that gives all explanations (in French).

Gibus

[TorpX]

In contrast, is known with certainty: the spheres must have the Type = -1. If Type = 0, to the first torpedo impact all points of life other boxes are eaten causing immediate destruction of the ship. Deutschland. zon contains 12 spheres type = 0.


Well, I can understand this part, at least.

Anyway, that is good detective work on your part. :salute:

[Gibus]

A link to better understand :


http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1378&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=upc

[TorpX]

Thanks for linking that, there's a lot of info there.