SH4 Mod Wishlist-Community Input Appreciated

[ReallyDedPoet]

Hi folks,

I put in another thread that I have been reading Thunder Below!: The USS Barb Revolutionizes Submarine Warfare in World War II. Here (http://www.amazon.ca/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707)

It has renewed my interest in SH4 and the Pacific Theatre. I am also working on a very basic ( not celestial navigation or anything like that ) Real Navigation Mod ( and I realize that some have been released here before ) that I plan to release soon. I have really enjoyed this in SH5, though with 4 it will be different as the game mechanics are not the same.

I realize SH4 is several years old and much has been done to make her the great sim that she is today. But I am curious, what would folks still like to see added or modified?

There may even be some mods that have never been posted here at SUBSIM that folks can post links for.

----------------------

So two part question:

- What else would you like to see modded in the game?
- Are there any mods that folks are aware of that have not been posted here at SUBSIM?

Thanks :yep:

See post #2 for a summary of the feedback given. It will be updated very soon.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Thread Summary, Version 1.1


It certainly has been interesting ( and much appreciated ) to read all of the various feedback these past few weeks. Again, hats off to all of those great modders, and those who have created some great applications for SH4 that have helped make it a great sim despite its various shortcomings. I salute you all.

Most of the information given has been regarding additional modding to the game. No big surprise regarding mods not posted here at SUBSIM that folks were not aware of. I did a bit of looking around and for the most part did not find much. The following is a summary of the feedback received. Along with summarizing the various information, in some cases I cut and pasted directly from posts when it made sense. In the end this whole thread belongs to the community anyway, it is your feedback :-). Also if something is in the wrong place-makes sense in another section, please let me know I can move it.

Where to go from here, I don't know? But I do know that there is not another PTO sim on the horizon, so if something new is to happen, it looks
like it will need to be with SH4. The key I think will be the assembly code and finding someone who has an interest in SH4 to tackle it as it will be a huge undertaking ( as DW mentioned ), there would be many here willing to help out.

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Ships-Aircraft

- Ships\aircraft: there are a number of small mods that add these to the game, however there is a need to compile all of these into one single mod.
- Related to the above, tater quite a while ago had started this mod: Here. A Japanese Merchant Marine Mod, but it was not completed, this would be a great piece of work to have in the game. Many here are more than likey aware of iambecimelife's Merchant Fleet Mod for SH3: http://http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170741&highlight


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Assembly-Code Related ( the below is related to things that the game was not intended to do ).

- Truly separated engine mod. Related, individually controlled port and starboard engine-screws ( quicker turning maneuvers ).
- Truly separated scope mod. Currently when one is both are. * Possible fix would be making it indestructible.
- Current rudder is destructible, a mod making it indestructible. * One member did a fix for this:
http://http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2193350&postcount=18
- Individually controlled forward and rear dive planes.
- Sniper accuracy of enemy gunners in the game needs to be gone. They only looked at it from the point of how much penalty you would pay in some situations to add to the immersion or suspense or "danger factor" the player feels and never gave accuracy or realistic gun usage a thought. Hence the game sending a DD in from 8000m away and goes straight on top of your position to attack you even though you are submerged and position is undetected on silent running.
- Enemy ships spotting you from unrealistic distances, knowing your exact speed, location and direction. Again, it seems developers
may have done this to up the " danger factor " versus realistic play and possibly making the game boring.
- Tied to the previous is the height-angle in which enemy ships shoot. Battleships being a good example, at best they should be limited to a horizontal shot. A complete overhaul of range detection, gun accuracy, effective gun range, and elevation limits, as well as looking over the hit points of shells should be done.
- A fix to make the flags and signal lights to stop working when a ship is registers as sunk. Related, flags flowing in the
same direction as smoke.
- Stadimeter needs a complete reworking, existing height factors are inaccurate. Current observatons with can be off from a few yards to one hundred yards depending
on when readings are taken ( target close-far from the sub ). Related, the resolution-ratio you are using in game affects what you see though the scopes ( eyes of the sub ). What you see can be different in size compared to someone who plays the game at a different resolution/aspect ratio. Without having a target show equally in size to ALL players, there's no way using the Periscope Telemeter Divisions will give you an accurate measurement (a function that was commonly used in range estimates). Mods have fixed this to a degree, but the true fix would have the game figure this out
regardless of the ratio-resolution.

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Modelling

- Destructible buildings. Related, bombardment missions, including land artillery. * Fluckley did this.
- 3D view of the engine room.
- Better instrumentation in the boats, an emphasis on precision this eliminating trying several times to
execute a command. For example the inclinometers at the diving planes stations. Some work, some don't and
some boats don't have any.
- LA Sub that works with TMO\RSRDC and Traveller's Mod, currently one that exists works is for RFB\RSRDC.
- Similar, Nautilus Class Submarine or a Collins Class.
- Argonaut fully modeled to full size with the two 6" guns.
- Rangefinders on the Yamamoto Mod.

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Mods that build on existing work- Misc.

- Opersation Monsoon, The conning tower upgrade bug that reportedly has not been fixed. Also the sinking problems with the stock SH4 merchants. It can take hours for a hog islander to sink while it only takes a few minutes for a MFM import to sink.
- U-boat and Fleetboats operations in the same game, a completely open ATO-PTO.
- Japanese Campaign was started by cyberman47.
- Many left over SH3 files in SH4 ( often making SH4 files both confusing and cumbersome ), there is a need to strip down the game, so files that only pertain to
the PTO. 1.5 further complicated things ( though it did being some PTO enhancements ) adding more ATO files. It may be better to go back to 1.4.
- The only long term solution would be to clean up this game first. Someone should strip it down to a bare minimum so that mods can start with a basically empty game. A minimal modding platform.
- The ability for AA gun stations to engage ships, and for the main deck gun to be able to engage aircraft. More often than not
when the deck gun was in action against a ship the AA gunners were raking the ship as well (the enemy fires theirs at you), this should also have
the effect of suppressing the return fire on smaller ships and from manned gun stations (not turrets).
- Related to the previous, why not put the position keeper in the deck gun sight, the uzo works well for range finding with manual targeting turned off also a bearing compass would be nice.
- Logbook or notepad for recording events within the game. There was a mod for this back in the early days that brought a resemblance of
a log, but could not find it.

-----------

Gameplay-Graphics

- An after death option. Final disposition of you career, medals, log record.
- More patchy weather, ie squalls, sun breaks in the rain.
- Random engine failures, leaking pumps, blown pistons, leaking shaft-seals and fogged up scopes. Longer repair times. Premature
torpedo failures.
- Normal working air search radar. Current one does not have to be raised.

-----------

I did not bother to add applications-tools yet. I had originally planned to do this and may at a later date.

Also, as the game has been around for several years, it may be worth to create a Post Your SH4 Installed Mods Thread.

[Webster]

I think it would be great to have one mod that just adds all the new ships and aircraft to the game that the modders have added over the years.

many are part of larger mods but for those who like to play the basic stock game or with limited mods, it would be a very desirable new added content mod.

I like to think of the best mods as a buffet line where you take what you like and plug it in without it being bundled with increased difficulty. that's where I see some mods lose a little of what could be greater mass appeal is if you don't force game style changes to go along with it.

as to something new for a mod, I see a true separated engines mod and a true separated scopes mod so they don't always get destroyed together as one. for instance if fired upon after being spotted, you lose one scope and you lose both even if the other isn't extended :/\\!! then the engines are the same, lose one lose both. maybe an indestructible obs scope would be a good solution?

something of personal frustration to me is the rudder being destroyed, I would love an indestructible rudder mod so the damage you receive affects the engines only.

[Hitman]

Yes I agree with Webster, what is needed is the equivalent of the MFM for SH3.

The project was actually started long ago by Tater, it was called Japanese merchant fleet IIRC, and I even contributed with some 3D models I kitbashed for it (Must see if I still have them backed up somewhere after my terrible HDD crash from some years ago). Sadly, it was abandoned later but I know there was a beta, I had access to it but it got lost.

[Snarf]

Speaking of the Barb I would really like to see 5" rocket mounts :D along with destroyable buildings.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I think it would be great to have one mod that just adds all the new ships and aircraft to the game that the modders have added over the years.
many are part of larger mods but for those who like to play the basic stock game or with limited mods, it would be a very desirable new added content mod.


Yes, I agree. Be interesting to locate that beta Hitman mentioned. Seems to me I saw something similar.


I like to think of the best mods as a buffet line where you take what you like and plug it in without it being bundled with increased difficulty.


I have done this many times for my own personal mods :yep:


as to something new for a mod, I see a true separated engines mod and a true separated scopes mod so they don't always get destroyed together as one. for instance if fired upon after being spotted, you lose one scope and you lose both even if the other isn't extended :/\\!! then the engines are the same, lose one lose both. maybe an indestructible obs scope would be a good solution?

Sounds interesting.


something of personal frustration to me is the rudder being destroyed, I would love an indestructible rudder mod so the damage you receive affects the engines only.

As does this one :yep:

------------------

One thing that was started but never finished was Captain America's Officer's Quarter Interior: Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155147&highlight=captain+america)

[merc4ulfate]

I would love to have individually control forward and rear planes. I would also love to have port and starboard engines and screws individually controlled for quicker turning manuvers.

Random equiptment failures would certainly create more realism in the game. It happened in real life so why not in the game I say? I have read plenty of patrol reports where everything from leaking pumps, blown pistons, leaking shaft seals and constantly fogged up scopes were the rule of the day.

I forget which captain but I read one report where the periscope could only be used at 5 second intervals due to a fogging issue. They had to keep lowering and raising it to look for any length of time.

I wouldn't mind a 3d view of the engine room with the mains ... especially if it had a girdle as a valve spring for the pumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CPWRoKHlBs


Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
OpsMonsun_V705
OMv705_to_V720
OMv720_Patch5
Traveller Mod v1.7 for OM 7.20

[Admiral Halsey]

I wish someone would make the LA Sub that works with RFB+RSRD into one that works with TMO+RSRD+Travellers mod.

[Snarf]

Another one I could think of would be picking up enemy survivors from ships and/or aircraft, It was fairly common to take a prisoner and extract valuable information.

To reiterate though, destroyable buildings would be a great one along with bombardment missions and especially destroyable land artillery. I really enjoyed hearing about Fluckey's various bombardment attacks.

[TheDarkWraith]

I would love to have individually control forward and rear planes. I would also love to have port and starboard engines and screws individually controlled for quicker turning manuvers.

This would be very hard to do unless you know assembly. I made them both available for SH5 but it wasn't easy to do.

[Admiral Halsey]

This would be very hard to do unless you know assembly. I made them both available for SH5 but it wasn't easy to do.

Assembly code?

[ReallyDedPoet]

This would be very hard to do unless you know assembly. I made them both available for SH5 but it wasn't easy to do.


And I think this will be key in taking SH4 to the fullest possible extent.

[TheDarkWraith]

And I think this will be key in taking SH4 to the fullest possible extent.

It's the only way you are going to be able to make SH4 do things it was never meant to do. There's just no other way around it :yep: Bite the bullet and start REing it. Depending on your skill it will take you around 2-5 years :cool: Or you can move on to something that has a better game engine, has much more flexibility and capability, and currently offers many of the things you are wanting. The choice is yours.

[ReallyDedPoet]

It's the only way you are going to be able to make SH4 do things it was never meant to do. There's just no other way around it :yep: Bite the bullet and start REing it. Depending on your skill it will take you around 2-5 years :cool: Or you can move on to something that has a better game engine, has much more flexibility and capability, and currently offers many of the things you are wanting. The choice is yours.

I want the best of both worlds :yep::)

The Pacific Campaign is a compelling one, and SH4 has a lot to offer currently. There are many mods in all areas to pick and choose from, I just think it needs a reset. And part of that would be what you are talking about and I agree it sounds like that would take some time.

Having said that there is a lot ( as indicated above ) that can still be done with the game as it currently exists. Specifically around adding more ships to the game and some work in opening up the sub. That is an area that needs further work. I would like to see those things being worked on now and in the meantime hopefully having some in the community explore stuff like the assembly code. It may even be someone who is not even a member now but comes onto the scene.

I am enjoying SH5, I have had it since it first came out, bugs and all :doh:
The game now as it stands is a night and day to what it once was and it seems new things are being discovered every day.

- Increase render distance of units.
- Adjustable dive planes.

^^^ Just to name a couple of the latest. Nice job by the way :up:

So I will continue to follow it's progress and play it, at the same time continuing to have SH4 on the go.

[TheDarkWraith]

I want the best of both worlds :yep::)

The Pacific Campaign is a compelling one, and SH4 has a lot to offer currently. There are many mods in all areas to pick and choose from, I just think it needs a reset. And part of that would be what you are talking about and I agree it sounds like that would take some time.

So what's stopping you from leading the charge and starting the REing of SH4? Every new beginning starts from something small :up:

You say you don't know how or lack the skill? Now seems like a great time to learn something new. Every discovery you make and share with others has the potential to lead to more discoveries by others doing the same thing.

Don't fear the unknown, embrace it with open arms :D

The more people you can get working on your RE project then, theoretically, the faster the job will get done. It takes just one person to stand up, to speak out, to take charge...to inspire others to do the same.

[Admiral Halsey]

I'd be willing to help test the stuff out.

[ReallyDedPoet]

So what's stopping you from leading the charge and starting the REing of SH4? Every new beginning starts from something small :up:

You say you don't know how or lack the skill? Now seems like a great time to learn something new. Every discovery you make and share with others has the potential to lead to more discoveries by others doing the same thing.

Don't fear the unknown, embrace it with open arms :D

The more people you can get working on your RE project then, theoretically, the faster the job will get done. It takes just one person to stand up, to speak out, to take charge...to inspire others to do the same.

I remember when Dave, leovampire for new members here, came onto the scene with SH4 in the very early days. He started with a couple of small mods ( a map or ship mod may have been his first ), asking a lot of questions, and progressed ( rather quickly ) to making some of the best environmental mods the game has seen. So good the developers used the concepts in the 1.4 patch, and gave him credit.

I am comfortable working converting-editing sound and image files, and also with text editing to an extent, that sort of thing. But there are many here capable of much more than I am in my opinion. And for that I do salute them.

Modding to me is similar to writing. Part of the reason one writes is because they want things to be or end a certain way. That is the reason I have always enjoyed the Silent Hunter Series :yep: It can be twisted and tuned in many different directions.

You can make it how you want it. Either by asking someone to do something for you, by using mods created by others or by doing it yourself. The longer I am here at SUBSIM I tend to lean toward the latter, at least as it relates to putting the finishing touches on a particular install. Similar to what Webster states above:

I like to think of the best mods as a buffet line where you take what you like and plug it in without it being bundled with increased difficulty. Thanks for the encouragement by the way.

[Sniper297]

"I would love an indestructible rudder mod so the damage you receive affects the engines only."

I forget who told me, but apparently the fleet boats are type XXI U boats for the damage data (again SH4 is really SH3 with assorted ships and gadgets hastily carelessly sloppily converted to US pacific war). In the zones.cfg file;

[RudderXXI]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=0.000000
HitPoints=150
Destructible=Yes
Armor Level=25
Critic Flotation=0.300000
Critical=Yes
Father=30
FloodingTime=59.999996
CargoType=None

I changed that to;

[RudderXXI]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=0.000000
HitPoints=1500
Destructible=no
Armor Level=250
Critic Flotation=0.300000
Critical=Yes
Father=30
FloodingTime=59.999996
CargoType=None

Haven't had a rudder destroyed since.

[ReallyDedPoet]

"I would love an indestructible rudder mod so the damage you receive affects the engines only."

I forget who told me, but apparently the fleet boats are type XXI U boats for the damage data (again SH4 is really SH3 with assorted ships and gadgets hastily carelessly sloppily converted to US pacific war). In the zones.cfg file;

[RudderXXI]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=0.000000
HitPoints=150
Destructible=Yes
Armor Level=25
Critic Flotation=0.300000
Critical=Yes
Father=30
FloodingTime=59.999996
CargoType=None

I changed that to;

[RudderXXI]
Multiplier=1.000000
Flotability=0.000000
HitPoints=1500
Destructible=no
Armor Level=250
Critic Flotation=0.300000
Critical=Yes
Father=30
FloodingTime=59.999996
CargoType=None

Haven't had a rudder destroyed since.

Nice :yep:

[ReallyDedPoet]

By the way, I reserved the second post for a reason. I will eventually compile a brief summary of what was discussed and try to make some sense if it.

Keep the input and discussion going folks. Thanks.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I'd be willing to help test the stuff out.


Thanks AH.

Whatever happens, now or in the future, testers are always needed.

[Admiral Halsey]

Thanks AH.

Whatever happens, now or in the future, testers are always needed.

No problem.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Another thing that could be mentioned is modding tools available for SH4, and there are a bunch. From this thread: Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155786)

Plus there is this thread from SH3: Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=202719)

What are we missing or what has been added to the mix not listed in those threads? Particularly the one for SH4.

----------------

- jimimadrid's various applications:SH4 Menumaker (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=131625) . JTxE Textenabler (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123521) . SH_Keymapper (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168297)
- Darkwraith's SDL Editor, can be used for SH4:Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3298)

[Hitman]

Depending on your skill it will take you around 2-5 years :cool: Or you can move on to something that has a better game engine, has much more flexibility and capability, and currently offers many of the things you are wanting. The choice is yours.

Probably porting all the pacific stuff over to SH5 would take also 5 years and still you would have gained on some things, lost on some others. :06:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Probably porting all the pacific stuff over to SH5 would take also 5 years and still you would have gained on some things, lost on some others. :06:

That is what I was thinking.

From a game-play side of things there have been huge strides, but the other part is modelling, adding new units, that sort of thing. And I would suspect if that happens in earnest, it will be for the ATO. Which will be great, SH5 is not going anywhere on my desktop.

But the PTO side I don't think would be a priority, so I think there is much value in working with what we have regarding SH4.

[GlobalExplorer]

I wish that people would start to port over the great mods from SH3.

I wish I could one day play U-boats and American subs in the same game, with all up to date mods on board.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I wish that people would start to port over the great mods from SH3.

I wish I could one day play U-boats and American subs in the same game, with all up to date mods on board.

Yes, this has been mentioned as well at SUBSIM, open up the entire ATO-PTO
Theatre :yep:

I agree, there are many great mods for SH3, and if something like the .exe can be disassembled, those changes ( if there are any to be discovered ) could also be applied to the ATO in SH4.

[Admiral Halsey]

Anyone think Ducimus would be willing to tell us his knowledge of the game?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Anyone think Ducimus would be willing to tell us his knowledge of the game?

Possibly :yep:

Be crazy not to respect what has been done and learned from those who have modded SH4. The game today that we have is because of modders past and present.

[Hitman]

I wish that people would start to port over the great mods from SH3.

I wish I could one day play U-boats and American subs in the same game, with all up to date mods on board.

I take it you are referring to SH5, because for SH4 we already have Operation Monsoon which ports over to Sh4 the uboats (even minelayers) and also merchant fleet mod and a huge amount of other stuff. :salute:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Yes, lurker is missed here. He did great things with the PTO and ATO : )

[GlobalExplorer]

I take it you are referring to SH5, because for SH4 we already have Operation Monsoon which ports over to Sh4 the uboats (even minelayers) and also merchant fleet mod and a huge amount of other stuff. :salute:

Yes, but he left. I hope in the future the newer stuff gets ported over, and SHIV becomes the new platform,

[Admiral Halsey]

I take it you are referring to SH5, because for SH4 we already have Operation Monsoon which ports over to Sh4 the uboats (even minelayers) and also merchant fleet mod and a huge amount of other stuff. :salute:

That mod does need some work still. For example the conning tower upgrade bug that i've been trying to fix. Also the sinking problems with the stock SH4 merchants. It can take hours for a hog islander to sink while it only takes a few minutes for a MFM import to sink.

[captgeo]

yes, hats off to lurker, I play SH4 still and I find myself more interested in the ATO then the PTO and play that way about 75% of the time, and yes there are some bug's in the OM side

I would like to see SH4 with the same Mods' that SH3 has ( the reason I just started SH3) but there should still be ways to improve on the PTO also, as far as what I would like to see in theses MOD's, .....

I like all the goodies that improve realistic play, as far as the PTO goes, a Japan Sub Campaign would be welcome I suspect just like we have Dive at Dawn for SH3 ( Brit ).

[Admiral Halsey]

yes, hats off to lurker, I play SH4 still and I find myself more interested in the ATO then the PTO and play that way about 75% of the time, and yes there are some bug's in the OM side

I would like to see SH4 with the same Mods' that SH3 has ( the reason I just started SH3) but there should still be ways to improve on the PTO also, as far as what I would like to see in theses MOD's, .....

I like all the goodies that improve realistic play, as far as the PTO goes, a Japan Sub Campaign would be welcome I suspect just like we have Dive at Dawn for SH3 ( Brit ).

Isn't Dive at Dawn for SH4?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Isn't Dive at Dawn for SH4?


Yes.

[Admiral Halsey]

Yes.

That's what I thought. Also Cybermat47 is working on a Japanese campaign is slowly working on his own Japanese campaign. Oh and my brother is into coding so maybe he could help with cracking the EXE for SH4?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Here is what is being done with SH5's exe:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181433

[Admiral Halsey]

Here is what is being done with SH5's exe:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181433

Hmmm... Might take him awhile but give him the tools and time my brother could eventually do something like that.

[CapnScurvy]

Personally, my idea of what SH4 should have been is long lost with the clutter of adding the German side of play to the game. Anyone whose looked under the hood of this game.....long before the U-Boat Missions Add-on, with its 5th patch.....the game was predestined to do double duty. I'm sure before the March 2007 release, there were plans in the works to add the German side to the game. You could see it from the very outset......the American Campaign was going to get the short end of the stick.

For instance, version 1.0 of the game had only the Metric Units of Measurement as the sole source of measuring!! So, with the best game simulation for American Fleet Boats we get the Metric System to measure with!?! I'm surprised the Fleet Boat crews didn't speak German as well! The Menu_1024_768.ini file is full of useless, leftover trappings of SHIII, even with the Add-on, there are many of these files not used in-game.

What I'd like to see is a better game designed from the ground up devoted to Fleet Boats. Want to play the German side? You've got SHIII or V....but they should have started over with their design when thinking of an American Pacific War Simulation. I think you would have found a smoother running game, faster loading, with less useless files to run through. As it is, our modifications are just scratching the surface of what should have been a better game designed from within. Unfortunately it's not, we're just putting a fresh coat of paint on a decade old game engine.....and ten years passed is ancient history in computer terms.

[Sniper297]

Amen to that. The most irritating part about trying to mod this game is figuring out which files do what when half of them do nothing at all. :down:

[Webster]

Amen to that. The most irritating part about trying to mod this game is figuring out which files do what when half of them do nothing at all. :down:

not only that but some files for things will effect changes while other identical files for other similar objects don't change anything at all if you change values so some other file or system must control that element of that ship. there is little o no continuity to what you need to change to make things change in the game.

[Webster]

I don't know if I mentioned it before but the absolute sniper accuracy of enemy gunners in the game needs to be GONE.

there are those who claim gunners were fairly accurate because ships are more stable platforms then sub decks but to hit a conning tower at 5000m is impossible yet they do it with alarming success which is unrealistic to the most degree.

the thing with setting this is the balance when they get closer they should be more accurate yet the game works on a system where every "x" amount of shots is a dead on hit then it "forces" a missed shot every "x" number of shots so you get forced misses at 1500m and a conning tower hit at 5000m in the first 3 shots even though it can be argued it should be hard to detect the tower at that range much less hit it with any accuracy.

also no one has ever put realistic limits on low shooting so enemy guns aim way too low. battleships are a good example as they shoot down at you when at best they were limited to horizontal shots and the smaller guns should be the only ones targeting you.

a complete overhaul of range detection, gun accuracy, effective gun range, and elevation limits, as well as looking over the hit points of shells should be done

[Snarf]

One I would really like to see is for the ability for AA gun stations to engage ships, and for the main deck gun to be able to engage aircraft. More often than not when the deck gun was in action against a ship the AA gunners were raking the ship as well (the enemy fires theirs at you), this should also have the effect of suppressing the return fire on smaller ships and from manned gun stations (not turrets).

[yubba]

While I was running surface units and manning the main deck gun jumping back and forth to uzo using the position keeper to get range it dawned on me why not put the position keeper in the deck gun sight the uzo works well for range finding with manual targeting turned off also a bearing compass would be nice..

[Webster]

One I would really like to see is for the ability for AA gun stations to engage ships, and for the main deck gun to be able to engage aircraft. More often than not when the deck gun was in action against a ship the AA gunners were raking the ship as well (the enemy fires theirs at you), this should also have the effect of suppressing the return fire on smaller ships and from manned gun stations (not turrets).

I agree all the guns should fire on any enemy ship you are engaged with but AFAIK the deck gun was rarely used if ever for fleetboat AA defence so im not sure how practical that would be since I don't think it ever even has any AA ammo slots for it (but I think the german subs did :06:)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Hi folks. I am on my way south ( Florida ) for the week with the family. I will check in when I can here, keep the discussion going! As mentioned previously, I plan to use that Reserve Post of mine to do up a summary of the discussions at some point.

On a related note I plan to finish Thunder Below while on vacation : )

[TorpX]

I don't know if I mentioned it before but the absolute sniper accuracy of enemy gunners in the game needs to be GONE.



Yes. The whole gun/ballistics model is FUBAR.

I don't think they even tried to get it right, probably didn't seem important to them.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Yes. The whole gun/ballistics model is FUBAR.

I don't think they even tried to get it right, probably didn't seem important to them.





Or as CS said above, they built most of SH4 on top of 3, so many things were overlooked
or not done properly.

[Webster]

Yes. The whole gun/ballistics model is FUBAR.

I don't think they even tried to get it right, probably didn't seem important to them.




have to agree, I think they only looked at it from the point of how much penalty you would pay in some situations to add to the immersion or suspense or "danger factor" the player feels and never gave accuracy or realistic gun usage a thought. hence the game sending a DD in from 8000m away and goes straight on top of your position to attack you even though you are submerged and position is undetected on silent running.

sure it might happen in a few rare cases where you were detected or your position known but not on such a routine basis as it happens in the game so it becomes a cheat factor the game uses to keep you feeling threatened and immersed in the game so it doesn't become boring.

I think the subs not using small weapons against ships in a surface battle is a good example. if you are in a running surface battle with any ship you fire ALL guns even those you know are probably going to be powerful enough (light machine guns) to be effective because you might just get a lucky shot and take out some of the crew.

not to mention how any ship near you while at periscope depth will almost ALWAYS turn to run right over top of you to take out your scope as thought you had a marker buoy with flashing lights marking your exact location, direction, and speed. but again I think this was part of that enemy threat they try to keep you under so you feel like your always trying to survive rather then be boring and attack unseen and undetected.

[Webster]

while you are looking for ideas I would like to suggest a mod that made flags and signal lights stop working as soon as a ship registers as sunk.

also it would be nice if flags were to go the same direction as smoke and follow the wind directions, its a little thing but would add a lot to the realism

[TheDarkWraith]

also it would be nice if flags were to go the same direction as smoke and follow the wind directions

that's a great idea :D I'll have to make this for SH5 :up:

[GlobalExplorer]

I have to agree. After ca 5 years trying to figure out SH4 I think it is a non-deterministic mess. Of course the game has nice data driven structures that theoretically give the greatest flexibility in creating almost anything. The modder sees this, goes through the cfg files, models exactly after the blueprint of the original data, makes sure that everything is correctly referenced, loads up the game and expects to have made another breakthrough. Only to find out the game does not give damn. Possibly the data is already cached somewhere, variables got defined in multiple places, are just completely unused, etc.

I often wondered if SH4 is written in C++ at all or just plain ANSI C, and if the persons designing it learned coding before the advent of OO programming. Take for example, the crew files which are just an overcomplicated way of initializing an array, resulting from most primitive text readers (basically ReadPrivateProfileString in the WinAPI or something equivalent). Everyone who understands ini files knows that lists of elements require special features, and that the tricks used in SH3/SH4 are basically just the same hacks you might have used before discovering proper ways to do it.

Another example is the use of exception handlers, or lack of it. Have you noticed how often the application would result in a black screen, only because a single reference was wrong? Have you ever seen a window like "could not load data xy", with the application still working afterwards?? No? Me neither. My guess is that they simple left out exception handling, and rather made sure the data is hundred percent correct, completely forgetting the plight of others (us).

My feeling is that there could have been too little control over the programmers. They created a great program all the same, but several of the concepts seem ancient. This resulted in the onion layer strategy of programming, which becomes a real nightmare when too many layers are added by to many people, and makes everyone just yearn to start over eventually.

The minimal, incomplete and often confusing comments are no real help either. But this is not the problem. Logically organized files, with verbose names can be reverse engineered easily, but only if there was little or no confusion on the part of the programmers themselves. And if I look at the data in SH4 I think programmers were often as confused as us. But at least they could change the source code or scrutinize it to understand what needs to be done. We can't.

That all could be the reason lurker eventually gave up, that no one else has taken up the ATO side, and people are either staying with SHIII forever (which was a lot less confused), or moved on the other battlefield that is SHV. He did many incredibly feats with his mods, but Operation Monsun introduces some strange bugs that are not his fault, simply could not be tracked down. He may have simply trown in the towel when he realized that it cannot be made to work, at least not with normal human effort. When you have booted the game several hundred or thousand times to see if your mod works if you change X or Y or perhaps rather Z, only to be denied a complete, predictable result most of the time .. you will understand how he must have felt.

The only long term solution I see would be to clean up this game first. Someone should strip it down to a bare minimum so that mods can start with a basically empty game. A minimal modding platform. I always wanted to try this first, but the amount of work scares me, and the small achievement from it ..

Because it is sad, when SH4 is working it is imo the best of the three games. It has all the features and athmosphere of SHIII, plus better graphics, better weather, native resolution support, many new features and fast loading times through a much better organized campaign. If it just were not so damn unpredictable and glitchy ..

[Webster]

plus to add to the above the german boats have very messed up files so its common to suddenly find your boat surface draft to be decks awash or riding half out of the water after you resurface again which made trying to set correct draft heights useless

[ReallyDedPoet]

The only long term solution I see would be to clean up this game first. Someone should strip it down to a bare minimum so that mods can start with a basically empty game. A minimal modding platform. I always wanted to try this first, but the amount of work scares me, and the small achievement from it ..

Because it is sad, when SH4 is working it is imo the best of the three games. It has all the features and athmosphere of SHIII, plus better graphics, better weather, native resolution support, many new features and fast loading times through a much better organized campaign. If it just were not so damn unpredictable and glitchy ..


Cleaning it up, that is part of it I think. Then after that seeing what can be done to add to it as far as additional functionality, etc. I think in some ways it is largely untapped. I say thus after what has been done with SH5.

Personally I would like to see the focus be on the PTO first. We have SH3 and SH5 for the ATO. Perhaps after that is can be applied to the U-boats. There won't be another submarine sim for the fleet-boats, at least for a number of years if at all.

[Hitman]

Yes, SH4 is the only hope for fleet boat sims for now.

Regarding the clean up (Something that I also thought about and probably anyone who has modded a bit this game), I know the UBM expansion added features, but I wonder if the job would be done easier starting from SH4 1.4

Are the extra things done for 1.5 really worth the nightmare of the leftovers and confusing files? :hmm2:

[CapnScurvy]

Yes, SH4 is the only hope for fleet boat sims for now.

Regarding the clean up (Something that I also thought about and probably anyone who has modded a bit this game), I know the UBM expansion added features, but I wonder if the job would be done easier starting from SH4 1.4

Are the extra things done for 1.5 really worth the nightmare of the leftovers and confusing files? :hmm2:

If only the patched 1.4 version could have been a good starting point!? Version 1.4 was just a further step in their plan to bring the German side into SH4.

It's unfortunate, but as I said earlier, the game was destined to play both parts from the start. The mess started at the very beginning of version 1.0. The UBM with patch 5, was the "finishing" of the process for them. The menu_1024_768 file, the specific German image files, the leftover files from SHIII were all there from the very beginning........ intended to use SH4 as a further extension of SHIII.

Unfortunately, doing neither justice.

Specifically, I would like to see the manual targeting reworked to allow for the Stadimeter to be less "useless" than its set up to be. Besides the many height figures being inaccurate, the Stadimeter throws in an "error", depending on where the reading is made within the scope view. If the reading is taken towards the top of the scope (as if the target is closer to the sub) the misplacement of the water line image of just one pixel width could be only a couple of yards off from what it should be......when compared to the reading taken while the target is much closer to the water line (indicating its further away from the sub) the same one pixel error placement can be hundreds of yards off in accuracy. This "error" is figured in with the Stadimeter math that's in the game files we can't get to (no math calculations are available for us to change!). So, the game engine files are off limit's to us, yet these very files are what keeps us from having this Stadimeter "error" less problematic.

The same is true of the resolution/aspect ratio issue of the camera views within the scopes (the eyes of the sub). Depending on what resolution/aspect ratio you play the game with, what you see can be different in size compared to someone who plays the game at a different resolution/aspect ratio. Without having a target show equally in size to ALL players, there's no way using the Periscope Telemeter Divisions will give you an accurate measurement (a function that was commonly used in range estimates). This inaccuracy can be made up with different mods for different resolutions....but the true fix is to have the game engine figure out the math and have the game displayed as expected for all players (no matter which resolution/aspect ratio the game is played on).

For me, there's more than enough needed fixes to have warranted additional patches from UbiSoft, things we can't fix unless we have access to code.....but they left it as-is. If there is a way to alter the code (TDW), I'd like to know where to start.

[Admiral Halsey]

If only the patched version 1.4 would have been a good starting point! It really was only a further step in their plan to bring the German side into SH4.

It's unfortunate, but as I said earlier, the game was destined to play both parts from the start. The mess started at the very beginning of version 1.0. The UBM with patch 5, was just the "finishing" of the process for them. The menu_1024_768 file, the specific German image files, the leftover files from SHIII were all there from the very beginning........ intended to use SH4 as a further extension of SHIII.

Unfortunately, doing neither justice.

Maybe it's time we start seeing which of those leftovers do something and which don't? It might take awhile but a file by file check will eventually get rid of all the clutter that was left over from SH3.

[haz]

the things i would like to see with many others probly,is the destroyers doing 7 to 50 knots in 4 secs,and their hardly ever missing you with dc,and seperate engine and screw areas,sh3 is ok but always liked sh4 more for some reason,never played sh5 figured it was probly more messed up then 4 when it came out,besides like the pto more.i will help where i can,have experminted with game files for years to see what they do.but dont know how to make nodes etc.

[Webster]

the things i would like to see with many others probly,is the destroyers doing 7 to 50 knots in 4 secs,and their hardly ever missing you with dc,and seperate engine and screw areas,sh3 is ok but always liked sh4 more for some reason,never played sh5 figured it was probly more messed up then 4 when it came out,besides like the pto more.i will help where i can,have experminted with game files for years to see what they do.but dont know how to make nodes etc.

I made a ship maneuverability fix to solve the rapid acceleration and instant stopping on a dime as well as race car like cornering around turns problem. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150164

I have done quite a few fixes for the game already, check my mods page

[ReallyDedPoet]

I have done quite a few fixes for the game already, check my mods page


Great page Webster, lots of fixes for sure. For folks new to SH4 who have not seen this, do yourself a favour and check it out.

[HertogJan]

What I'd like to see is a way of writing down stuff on the Nav.Map or on a notepad of sorts... The 'red' pencil was ment to do that but never got ink in it :-?

[ReallyDedPoet]

What I'd like to see is a way of writing down stuff on the Nav.Map or on a notepad of sorts... The 'red' pencil was ment to do that but never got ink in it :-?


You would think that one would be fairly straight forward, or wouldn't it be nice to have a pulldown sheet where you could do the same thing. And edit as necessary or needed.

[HertogJan]

Something like a personal logbook would be great, being able to make notes on contacts, convoy (heading, speed ect.)

[TheDarkWraith]

also it would be nice if flags were to go the same direction as smoke and follow the wind directions, its a little thing but would add a lot to the realism

I just finished making this for SH5. As SH5 is based off of SH4 this is possible to do in SH4 and SH3. It was a royal pita to code though :yep: Not for the faint of heart and you better have really strong coding/assembly/RE skills :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

I just finished making this for SH5. As SH5 is based off of SH4 this is possible to do in SH4 and SH3. It was a royal pita to code though :yep: Not for the faint of heart and you better have really strong coding/assembly/RE skills :up:


Well we know that it is possible : )

[TG626]

I think an after death save would be nice. Final disposition of you career, medals, log record. Nothing you could play, just your final record. I remember games from 20 years ago having that...

[TheDarkWraith]

Well we know that it is possible : )

Yes it is possible but not easy to do.

You'd be surprised how much SH4 is in SH5 but just turned off or disabled. All the watch rotation stuff and sounds for it are loaded when the game runs but right after that some new code ensures that those features are disabled or turned off so they are never used :nope: Just total piss poor and lazy coding (not to mention inefficient memory management - why allocate memory to things that are never used?). They also left entire chunks of SH4 code in SH5. Instead of stripping them out they changed the pointers to those functions to point to 'null' functions or stubs - functions that immediately return to the caller (once again inefficient memory management - why have code in memory that is never called/used?).

Oh but it gets even better! As SH4 was based on SH3 I even see SH3 code in the SH5 code. Same thing as I described above - instead of removing the SH3 code from SH4 they just set 'null' functions or stubs :dead: Laziness compounded onto more laziness...

[GlobalExplorer]

TDW you seem to be the only person here who has the ability and energy to unravel the mysteries of SH5.exe. I am not suprised that many of the old stuff is still there, if it can be made to work even it could be very fortunate. Really looking forward what you and others can do with the game.

It does not surprise me though that you find large portions of hidden, disabled code. They must have decided that with Silent Hunter 5 the engine needs to be completely upgraded. One reason would be that UBI wanted to have the AssCreed graphics engine in their newer product. Another will have been that many new programmers were bitterly complaining that the older stuff was not always working and that they were losing countless hours trying to figure out what would work - similar to our experiences with SH4.

So they would make tabula rasa, and put everything on a new, much improved foundation. Unfortunately the same old casualness set in quickly (management issues?), and some people refactored stuff from Silent Hunter IV, which was often stuff that had already been refactored from Silent Hunter III. At the same time fundamental changes must have happened inside of UBI that forced them to finish the game at a point where they were barely halfway on the move to the new engine. For I don't think I have seen many games that were out of the box so badly configured as Silent Hunter V.

[ReallyDedPoet]

When I get back home on the weekend I'll start to update this thread. In the meantime feel free to provide more feedback on the first and subsequent posts. Thanks : )

[TorpX]

I'll suppress the temptation to post a long laundry list of (probably impossible) mod wishes here.

This is something which I think would be possible without any fundamental breakthroughs: Better instrumentation in the boats. That is, dials that would allow us to order a precise course, depth, or speed, without having to try several times. This mainly applies to the HUD dials, but also to some extent, the interior instruments. For example: the inclinometers at the diving planes stations. The S-class have none, and they don't work in some others. Even where they work, they only go to 15 degrees, and the boats sometimes take on a much greater angle.

Just my two cents.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Just my two cents.



And it's appreciated : )

[Popeye the Salior]

Personally why not something like the Nautilus class submarine or a Collins class?:06:

[haz]

thx webster for the ship fix,sure helps my battle against the ijn

[ReallyDedPoet]

Starting to update this thread later tonight .....

[Admiral Halsey]

Personally why not something like the Nautilus class submarine or a Collins class?:06:

TMO adds the Nautilus and so does RFB I think.

[Snarf]

Personally why not something like the Nautilus class submarine or a Collins class?:06:
The WWII Nautilus was quite similar to the Narwhal which we already have (sort of) in TMO. I would like to see the Argonaut fully modeled to full size with the two 6" guns.

[merc4ulfate]

An all female crew and voices?

[Snarf]

An all female crew and voices?
Lara Croft standing at the Nav table?

I mentioned this on another thread, but how about the radar operator calling out ranges too not just bearings? :ping:

Adjustable crew accuracy from the game options menu?

[Webster]

lets remember the purpose and object of this thread, please keep in mind the original question was

what would folks still like to see added or modified about sh4?

new and different mods that change the game is good and all that but I think it best to concentrate on the game and its functions and not just new ideas for mods people think up that change the game or add unrealistic things to it for the time period the game is set in.

least that's how I read it.

[ReallyDedPoet]

lets remember the purpose and object of this thread, please keep in mind the original question was

what would folks still like to see added or modified about sh4?

new and different mods that change the game is good and all that but I think it best to concentrate on the game and its functions and not just new ideas for mods people think up that change the game or add unrealistic things to it for the time period the game is set in.

least that's how I read it.

Thanks Webster, you read the thread correctly :up:
I was going to post regarding a few of the above :yep: I figured I would receive a few off-topic posts given the nature of the thread.

And I do plan to update this, still recovering from my recent trip :oops:

[Anonymous4245]

I wish for a Mod

where I can use the Rangefinders on the Yamato Mod

the lack of UZO in the Mast is annoying lel

[ReallyDedPoet]

I wish for a Mod

where I can use the Rangefinders on the Yamato Mod

the lack of UZO in the Mast is annoying lel

I think the end goal here would be to identify what if anything more can be done with the core game first, then perhaps as result of that,
some additional stuff could be accomplished.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Starting to update now....

On another note, nice to see mods still being created:Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2199157#post2199157)

[Snarf]

Patchy weather. Instead of all encompassing weather, it would be nice to have squalls, and to have sun breaks in the rain, and weather that comes and goes more frequently, weather fronts, etc. I'm not sure if this is already the case but enemy sonar needs to be reduced in the rain. It was common for a squall to be the saving grace for a sub because their sound would be masked by the rain on the surface.

[hunter 64]

The "patchy weather" would be a nice feature. Sneaking up on a convoy in the rain or fog and having the weather lift, leaving you exposed might be interesting.
I would like to see equipment malfunctions with realistic repair times, even if it might on occasion require a return to base for a complete fix.
Also, premature torpedo explosions seem to have no effect on escort or merchant ship movement. I would think that a torpedo exploding just short of a ship in convoy should initiate some evasive action.
I'm finding that the more I play SH4 the more I enjoy a more realistic gameplay. For me, weather, equipment failures, convoy zigs and zags etc. should mean that a return to base with one ship under your belt might, on some occasions, be considered a pretty successful trip.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Thanks folks.

I am getting though all of the posts, I am just over half way through. My summary will become the second post in this thread. The first draft will be completed in a couple of days.

Thanks for your patience :yep:

[HertogJan]

I'd like to see a 'normal' working air search radar...
As it is now , you don't have to raise it in order for it to work.

I suspect changing the value to a different height should do the trick but I can't seem to find the file(s).



On another note,

I read a lot of people modifying/ tweaking their version of the game to their liking, some big changes and some smaller ones.
A lot of those modifications are lost in the threads because of the mass of information in them. Some of those changes can’t be found in the Documentations because they were altered months or years after the release.


If people are inclined to do so, would it be a idea to put those 'small' modifications into a thread with a small readme on what they changed and what it does?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Hi folks,

I apologize for not having the summary of this thread out earlier :oops:, I certainly appreciate all of the feedback-discussion :yep:

I worked on the summary last night and found that some of my notes were a little longer than I would like them. So I plan to edit them a bit more and then post ( see post # 2 ) later tonight. I may do this as a first draft ( so I can get this completed ) and through feedback from you guys, do some further editing.

Thanks again.

RDP

[ReallyDedPoet]

Post # 2 updated :yep::)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Bump :)

[razark]

Been away from SH4, and just came across this thread. Haven't read it all, but here are my most wanted features not already listed, based on what I remember from a while back:

-The ability to input range OR bearing, not having to put them both in at the same time.

-The ability to add a mark on the nav map when putting in range and bearing.
--If not the above, then the ability to use the nav map tools on the attack map or the position keeper mark on the nav map.

-A crew that will plot the target and work out a firing solution based on those marks.

-The ability to edit labels on marks on the nav map (as was listed in the manual when I bought it...)

[ReallyDedPoet]

Been away from SH4, and just came across this thread. Haven't read it all, but here are my most wanted features not already listed, based on what I remember from a while back:

-The ability to input range OR bearing, not having to put them both in at the same time.

-The ability to add a mark on the nav map when putting in range and bearing.
--If not the above, then the ability to use the nav map tools on the attack map or the position keeper mark on the nav map.

-A crew that will plot the target and work out a firing solution based on those marks.

-The ability to edit labels on marks on the nav map (as was listed in the manual when I bought it...)

Thanks. I will update the thread.

[Snarf]

How about the ability to go on patrol with an AI wolfpack and have them radio contacts to you and maybe even coordinate attacks?

[razark]

A couple that have come to mind as I've been playing:

-Bottoming the boat and hiding from escorts.

-Air and surface both report "radar contact". These reports should be distinct, (not to mention the SD radar should report only range, not bearing).

[Webster]

A couple that have come to mind as I've been playing:

-Bottoming the boat and hiding from escorts.

-Air and surface both report "radar contact". These reports should be distinct, (not to mention the SD radar should report only range, not bearing).

YOU CAN SET IT ON THE BOTTOM WITHOUT AND DAMAGE IF YOU GET VERY NEAR BOTTOM AND MAKE SURE YOU STOP ALL FORWARD OR BACKWARDS MOVEMENT, THEN EASE HER DOWN A FOOT OR TWO AT A TIME BUT ITS A SLOW PROCESS YOU CANT REALLY DO OR HAVE TIME FOR WHEN YOU ARE UNDER ATTACK.

caps lock was on lol

but even after bottoming the boat the game doesn't act right to treat you as a bottom echo and the enemy can still detect you as good as if you were at periscope depth so you get no realistic advantage from bottoming the boat as you should have.

I would like to see a near bottom "fog" like the thermal layer so that if you are on the bottom or nearly on the bottom they cant detect you very well. this I feel would add realism to the game but im not sure how of if it could be done

[razark]

I would like to see a near bottom "fog" like the thermal layer so that if you are on the bottom or nearly on the bottom they cant detect you very well. this I feel would add realism to the game but im not sure how of if it could be done
I know it's possible to do it, I really want the reason to do it. I remember back in AotD, you could even get your boat stuck in mud if you bottomed it.


How did SH4 make it out the door missing some very basic features that existed in previous sims?!?

[TorpX]

How did SH4 make it out the door missing some very basic features that existed in previous sims?!?

Indeed.

I'm guessing they were thinking along these lines:


good gun model ___________No
good sound model _________No
realistic campaign _________No
realistic physics ___________No
pretty graphics ___________Yes

Ok, release it! Nobody will notice the difference.

[Admiral Halsey]

Indeed.

I'm guessing they were thinking along these lines:


good gun model ___________No
good sound model _________No
realistic campaign _________No
realistic physics ___________No
pretty graphics ___________Yes

Ok, release it! Nobody will notice the difference.


This list works for almost any game anymore really.

[Bonden]

I'd like to be able to change engine sound files on playable destroyers, armed trawlers, armed tugs - are they hard coded or something ?

I've manipulated the armed trawler sound so it sounds like an old steam engine and it just chuffs along and better than it was (to my ear) - but the destroyers, not yet...

[Sailor Steve]

...are they hard coded or something ?
"Hard-coded" means that to change it you would actually have to know the programming code and go in and rewrite it. Sound files, like many others, are separate files and easy to change, so you are welcome to do so without fear of causing trouble. :sunny: