GWX 3.0 Gold killed my sounds...

[Sephiroth]

I have been reading about this problem for two days and come up with nothing. I installed SH3, patched to 1.4b, cracked it so I am not infected with Starforce (I got it on release day so I have that crud on my DVD), and installed GWX 3.0 Gold. Now I only hear the diesels if I go to external view and plunge underwater near the rear of my boat. I also do not hear waves splashing and some pings do not play. Oh and I do not hear the torpedo doors opening and closing.

Now, the files are in the sounds directory and play fine with Windows Media Player. I am guessing something else is at play. All of my sound knobs are at 0db. I turned them down and back up for good measure. No change.

Now, the system I do not believe is the fault because it ran fine prior to installing GWX. I ran it once and did a single mission without issues. My system is quite hefty as well, one of the advantages of being top dog in an IT company. Specs are at the end of the post.

So, what is up here? I imagine that a configuration file must not have been updated when GWX was installed. Is this something that I can verify? Maybe open a file in Notepad or Wordpad (LibreOffice Writer?) and verify that it references the correct sound file? Thanks for the help!

Intel Core i7 4960X
64GB DDR3-3100 (Quad-Channel)
4TB RAID10 Array on a hardware RAID controller with 512MB Cache RAM
Dual GTX 780 Ti Video Cards
Sound Blaster Z (PCI-E)

*EDIT*

I forgot, I am running Windows 7 Professional 64bit!

*UPDATE*

This is the solution for those who do not wish to read the entire thread!

The files on the GWX site are apparently broken. Jimbuna, a moderator here at SubSim, linked me to the original GWX 3.0 files in this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2174640&postcount=24). These files work and I have diesel sounds, wave splashing sounds, everything. The ones at the GWX site are not working for me, and Jimbuna stated that others have had issue with them as well. My advice is to use the files linked in the post above and avoid all of the hassle.

Now, a lot was discussed here, including compatibility modes, installing DX9, and more. I am going to list the things that are not necessary to get SH3 running with GWX.


You do NOT need to run in compatibility mode. SH3 runs perfectly fine in Windows 7, even the 64bit versions
You do NOT need to install DirectX 9. I have spoken with Microsoft and DirectX 10 and 11 are fully backwards-compatible with 9. I currently only have 11 installed and SH3 with GWX sounds great!
You do NOT need to disable sound hardware acceleration if you own an accelerated soundcard as I do. This did nothing for me while troubleshooting
You do NOT need to use Creative ALchemy with SH3. While it did give me slightly better quality sound, SH3 is not an EAX or OpenAL game, so using it is pointless
Owning a surround system does not affect SH3 in my case. When I first got SH3 I owned a 5.1 system. I own an 8.1 system now and I leave it on 8.1 all the time. SH3 works fine with it, probably due to DirectX/DirectSound handling the game audio
Adjusting my in-game volume options did not do anything to alleviate my issue
If you have a Creative soundcard and use the Audio Console to enable things like CMSS, you should disable them before playing ANY game. This is per Creative and I can tell you from personal experience that playing a game with CMSS on causes oddities


That about sums it up. I hope this saves somebody else the trouble that I had. Again, the solution was provided by Jimbuna!

[Anvar1061]

SSS
Look
http://www.mediafire.com/?o6yq97r962tn5j8
Aces' Combined SH3.SDL Files v4

[Sephiroth]

I am not running SH3 commander. Just SH3 1.4b and GWX 3.0 Gold.

[Myxale]

Try disabling Sound acceleration.

If you have a card like a Creative Labs one, you can disable the hardware enhancements in the Playback devices>Enhancements tab of the sound control panel. It's labeled "Audio Enhancements" if it's available.
DirectSound doesn't have a hardware abstraction layer anymore.

Or try disabling other 'Audio Enhancements'

I had a similar problem way back when I started SH3, but I was running XP then.


Hope it helps-

[Sephiroth]

That should not be the issue. I say that because, again, it works fine without GWX. Once GWX is installed it stops working.

As a side note, can I enable something like the 16km atmosphere mod after starting a career?

*UPDATE*

I used Creative ALchemy and added SH3, which improved my sound quality, but I still do not have the diesels or waves splashing. I do believe This is a mod issue due to only certain sounds missing, not all sounds. Like the game is choosing which to play and which not to play.

[Sephiroth]

No go disabling hardware. This is a GWX issue. Ideas?

[Sephiroth]

Alright, I uninstalled SH3 completely (registry, folders and files left behind, the SH3 folder in Documents, everything) and rebooted. I then installed SH3. I did not start the game. I installed 1.4b. I did not start the game. I installed GWX 3.0 Gold. Again, I did not start the game. I cracked my install to avoid Starforce. I rebooted.

Now I start the game, set my video options, set all audio to -40db and apply. I then change them to 0db and apply. I go into the naval academy. No diesel sounds or waves on the surface. This is as clean as it gets. How can I get this working? NYGM just causes SH3 to crash so GWX was the other big option. Is there anything else I need? Do I need to enable any of the additional GWX mods with the mod tool?

[DragonRider]

Stand on the bridge and turn 360” if the sound of the motor and the waves cut in and out then it is most likely that your systems sounds are set to surround sound and not stereo. :hmmm:

Edit.... And also with that sound card you may need to use the Headphone jack for the sounds to work right

[Mikemike47]

I imagine that a configuration file must not have been updated when GWX was installed. Is this something that I can verify? Maybe open a file in Notepad or Wordpad (LibreOffice Writer?) and verify that it references the correct sound file? Thanks for the help!

Intel Core i7 4960X
64GB DDR3-3100 (Quad-Channel)
4TB RAID10 Array on a hardware RAID controller with 512MB Cache RAM
Dual GTX 780 Ti Video Cards
Sound Blaster Z (PCI-E)

I forgot, I am running Windows 7 Professional 64bit!

Welcome Sephiroth.

I use Windows 7 Professional 64bit, an AMD processor and the soundblaster card that has RAM on the soundcard, and GWX works fine. See below about other creative issues. Have you changed the SH3.exe compatability (in properties of shortcut), to XP SP2 or SP3? works better that way. I started playing SH3 with XP.
I say that because, again, it works fine without GWX. Once GWX is installed it stops working.

As a side note, can I enable something like the 16km atmosphere mod after starting a career?


I used Creative ALchemy and added SH3, which improved my sound quality, but I still do not have the diesels or waves splashing. I do believe This is a mod issue due to only certain sounds missing, not all sounds. Like the game is choosing which to play and which not to play.
I can not recall if I use the 16km atmosphere at the moment. It is best to start mods after starting a career. I take the chance sometimes and I see what happens, by enabling a mod after I return to the bunker. If no CTD, then I continue the patrol without having to start a new career.

I have not used Alchemy for any SH series game since the series does not need it to work. Am I understanding that you are only doing sound checks just in the naval academy? Post #7 states the naval academy but your other posts do not specify campaign or naval academy. What about a regular campaign?

Stand on the bridge and turn 360” if the sound of the motor and the waves cut in and out then it is most likely that your systems sounds are set to surround sound and not stereo. :hmmm:
And also with that sound card you may need to use the Headphone jack for the sounds to work right

I have my creative console launcher set to surround and virtual something on some other setting using the sound card output jacks. Sounds are fine in game, I do not play the naval academy. Is the naval academy the same as museum?
Perhaps I am not fine tuning my ears that much and want to have fun! Haven't played SH3 for about 4 months plus. Played SH2-SH5 through the years.

Most experienced subsimmers have found out that the SH3 to SH5 series sometimes will play fine in the campaign, but will crash in naval academy or museum. I remember that a lot with Operation Monsun in SH4.

Alright, I uninstalled SH3 completely (registry, folders and files left behind, the SH3 folder in Documents, everything) and rebooted. I then installed SH3. I did not start the game. I installed 1.4b. I did not start the game. I installed GWX 3.0 Gold. Again, I did not start the game.

Now I start the game, set my video options, set all audio to -40db and apply. I then change them to 0db and apply. I go into the naval academy. No diesel sounds or waves on the surface. This is as clean as it gets. How can I get this working? NYGM just causes SH3 to crash so GWX was the other big option. Is there anything else I need? Do I need to enable any of the additional GWX mods with the mod tool?

Sometimes when I do have a CTD, it is best to shutdown computer, give it a few seconds for hardware platters to stop (if it is not solid state). Restart computer.

From some, not all, CTD or sleep recovery issues forcing to do a forced shutdown, I have found out that the creative console launcher changes the quantity of 4 stereo speakers connected to soundblaster card (which I have) to 2 stereo speakers. Some other crash, I have no memory if it was caused by some issue with Silent Hunter 3 changed the speaker outputs of creative to some other source. Maybe those ideas will help.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome Aboard Kaleun :salute:

You say NYGM causes SH3 to crash and you are experiencing difficulties with GWX installed.

It looks to me like it is something in your system that is at fault....I'd suggest you check your sound card settings.

[Sephiroth]

It is not my system. The only time I have had a crash was with NYGM installed. Removed it and no more crashes. Installed again, crashes came back. Simple enough for me, so I removed it. That is when I tried GWX. Again, this is NOT my system. The install is barely two months old using an official Win7 Pro 64bit DVD, drivers installed manually without the bloatware. Again, nothing crashes except SH3 if NYGM is installed. If it is not installed, SH3 runs flawlessly. Also, SH3 without GWX runs correctly. The problems start when GWX or NYGM are installed (not at the same time, of course!) so my problems are almost guaranteed to be related to the mods.

As for the sound question, this is in single mission, academy, and campaign. The sound files are there and play correctly in Windows, just not in the game. I am 99.99% sure this is a GWX configuration issue somewhere. The sounds work fine without GWX. They work fine with or without the use of ALchemy. They work fine with or without hardware acceleration. Oh and my card does have RAM on it as well. It is the ZxR to be specific.

I have not tried XP compatibility mode because it runs flawlessly with a bone stock 1.4b install. Not as realistic, but it works fine. This again leads me to believe that the issue is NOT the executable code (SH3.exe) but a configuration file for the u-boats or something. I will try compatibility mode to rule it out, but I do not expect it to work personally.

Also, I turn off all of the effects unless I am using them for something specific. In fact, if you ask Creative, they will tell you to leave things like CMSS off while playing games. I found out the hard way when running with an X-Fi in XP SP3. I had a game that did not sound right and after conversing with Creative support, found out that CMSS was screwing me over. I let the game use EAX/OpenAL/DirectSound if it needs it. I guess it would help if playing a DOS game in DOSBox though...

My surround system options are off. The soundcard handles all of this. Using ALchemy allows the older games designed for XP and such to interface directly with the soundcard due to the new audio stack used in Vista/7/8. Using this allows games such as UT to have hardware access again. SH3 does not have EAX support so I have ALchemy disabled for it until this problem is sovled, but it DID improve the sound quality when enabled.

*UPDATE*

Alright, I enabled XP compatibility mode. No good. I disabled hardware acceleration while in XP mode. No good. I then turned off XP mode because, again, the game works flawlessly prior to GWX being installed. This must be a configuration file issue. I mean if it works until I install GWX, the problem cannot possibly be anything else. The thing is, I do not know what to look at to find sound specifications. Where are the sound files specified for the u-boats? If I could see that it points to the correct sound file I would have a starting point.

*UPDATE*

I have been reading the forums and I see multiple people complaining about diesel sounds after the installation of GWX. The one I just read is located here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=107563). I also saw people talking about not installing to the default location. Being an IT administrator and having an AD domain in my home with about eighteen systems on my network, I do not do such a foolish thing. I create a directory called "Games" on the system drive. I then remove all permissions from it and grant "SYSTEM" and "Administrators" full access. I create an AD group called "Games". I give that group full access also, and put my AD user accounts into the games group. This way users that do not want or need to play games cannot even access the games directory due to not being in the group. Accounts that are in the group, such as mine, have full access.

[Mikemike47]

*UPDATE*
Alright, I enabled XP compatibility mode. No good. I disabled hardware acceleration while in XP mode. No good. I then turned off XP mode because, again, the game works flawlessly prior to GWX being installed. This must be a configuration file issue. I mean if it works until I install GWX, the problem cannot possibly be anything else. The thing is, I do not know what to look at to find sound specifications. Where are the sound files specified for the u-boats? If I could see that it points to the correct sound file I would have a starting point.

Just realized it could be a combination of XP (no matter what compatibility type) and Windows 7 WITH GWX. I do not recall if Win 7 has Directx version 10 or 11. Did you install Directx 9C which was available eventually after XP was out? Available on microsoft.com.

I have always installed the version of directx that came with my DVD even if the operating system is newer.

Maybe some directx sound or d3d sound files are needed for GWX and proper sound to run while the video part is fine?

[Sephiroth]

Good point. I have 10 and 11, let me see if I have 9 installed. If not I will download the final version and install it.

*UPDATE*

No go. I had 9.0c from June 2010, but reinstalled it anyway. No change. I believe the sounds were just toned down WAY too much in GWX. Where can I check the sound files in the configurations for the u-boats? I am fairly sure that is the issue.

[Sephiroth]

Alright, round three. Here is what I have done to prove that this is a GWX issue, at least to myself. Correct me if this is somehow wrong.


Uninstalled SH3
Removed the SH3 folder from my documents folder
Deleted the C:\Games\Ubisoft folder
Check for virtualized files in my AppData folder, but none exist since I have full control over C:\Games
Went through my registry and deleted everything related to SH3
Rebooted
Installed SH3 from my DVD, but did NOT play
Installed the SH3 1.4b patch
Cracked SH3 with the reloaded crack to avoid Starforce
Rebooted
Started the game and did a single mission, in which all sounds were there
Exited the game
Installed GWX 3.0 Gold
Deleted my SH3 folder from my documents
Rebooted
Started the game and did the exact same single mission, and had no diesel sounds and no waves crashing over the bow


So, this is the third time I have done this and every time I install GWX I lose sounds. As such, I am drawn to the conclusion that something in GWX is not right. If GWX does not modify the executable (SH3.exe) then compatibility modes, DirectX, and anything else related cannot possibly be the problem because it works flawlessly prior to GWX being installed.

Now, how can I troubleshoot GWX? I have gone through all of the suggestions here so we can toss those out the window. I will summarize what I have tried below.


SH3 without GWX, no compatibility, no ALchemy - Works
SH3 without GWX no compatibility, with ALchemy - Works (Better sound quality)
SH3 without GWX, XP SP3 compatibility, no ALchemy - Works
SH3 without GWX, XP SP3 compatibility, with ALchemy - Works (Better sound quality)
SH3 with GWX, no compatibility, no ALchemy - Missing sounds
SH3 with GWX no compatibility, with ALchemy - Missing sounds
SH3 with GWX, XP SP3 compatibility, no ALchemy - Missing sounds
SH3 with GWX, XP SP3 compatibility, with ALchemy - Missing sounds


Again, my OS is Windows 7 Professional 64bit. Specs are in my first post.

As a kicker, I installed this on one of my two XPS400 systems The specs are below. I have the EXACT same issue there. Exact same results as listed above.

Pentium D 820 2.8GHz
3GB DDR2-800Mhz
nVidia GTX550 Ti 2GB GDDR5
SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatal1ty (The one with 64MB X-RAM)
320GB WD SATA2 HDD, 16MB Cache
Windows 7 Professional 64bit

[Sailor Steve]

Here is what I have done to prove that this is a GWX issue, at least to myself. Correct me if this is somehow wrong.
I'm not going to try to argue, partly because I have no idea what's causing it and partly because it may well be GWX interacting with somthing else.

I just want to point out that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people playing with GWX who are not having these same issues. I've used GWX for years now and heve never experienced what you are describing.

[Sephiroth]

I understand, but considering the fact that GWX is basically tons of new configuration files for added realism, new models or improved models, and new or modified sounds, it cannot possibly be related to hardware since these are all used by the game engine, which is contained within the executable. The executable runs the stock configuration perfectly. We change the configuration and it stops running correctly. This is why I keep asking how I can view the configuration files and/or what files to view. It may be a simple line commented out that needs to be uncommented.

Also, do me a favor. Would you mind starting SH3 with JUST GWX installed, doing a single mission, and recording a short video of the sounds? If you could so I can compare with my install it would greatly help. Maybe this is the way it is supposed to sound, but even if the diesels are super-quiet, I should hear waves breaking on the bow when in heavy seas. All I hear is water lapping gently.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't have any games installed currently, as my PC won't run them with the mods I want. If nobody else helps out within the next day I will be glad to reinstall. We need to get this straightened out.

[Sephiroth]

My reasoning for asking this favor is that if it sounds on your end as it does on mine and this is "normal", then the issue is that GWX turned down the diesel sounds WAY too low. I did just do "Courageous" with 74% realism (I like external view, sue me) and had a flawless victory. Not a scratch on the boat (192m, it did creak a bit...) but their carrier submerged rather quickly. Anyway, after the destroyers left I surfaced and in the moderate seas I did hear the waves again. No changes to any configuration, it just started working.

No diesels though, and that is what I like to hear. I love the sound of a running engine. The valves tapping like a sewing machine and all.

[Sailor Steve]

One thing you can try in the meantime: Use your computer's onboard Sound Recorder, or an external sound editor, to open Submarine_diesel_exterior. If you can hear it alright there then something is keeping it from getting through. If you can hear it but very faintly you can use Sound Recorder or another sound program to raise the volume for that one file. If you can't hear it at all then we can check to see if the file is blank for some reason. The file itself can be replaced if that is so. I always keep a copy of the stock Data folder in a safe place just so I can check this sort of thing.

[Sephiroth]

As I have said before, playing the exterior file in Windows Media Player works fine, and it sounds decent. I just cannot hear it in-game, though everything else in-game is fine, such as voices, torpedo sounds, warship sounds, etc. It is just the diesel exterior sound.

[GreyBeard]

This, "Engine sounds no longer emanate from the bows of ships," from page 524 of the GWX 3.0Gold Manual. When in doubt, read the ****ing manual. :D Ya gotta love it!

[Sephiroth]

I read that. It doesn't make any noise on the surface. Read the thread. Also, I never had engine sounds from the bow prior to or after installing GWX. My issue is that it is silent when on the surface, but if I use the camera view to go underwater, I can hear the diesels loud and clear.

*EDIT*

You do realize that they are referring to ships there, right? Just making sure, since my problem involves u-boat diesel sounds.

[GreyBeard]

I just completed a fresh installation of SH3, 1.4b cracked and GWX 3.0 Gold, no mods installed whatsoever. Running naval academy\navigation\training, from the F4 view (on the bridge) I clearly hear the diesels. I command "all stop" the diesel noise stops and all that can be heard is a gentle lapping of the waves. Command "ahead 1/3" the diesel noise returns. So what choices are we left with for the reason you can't hear the diesels? If the GWX team had commented out the diesel noise I would not hear it. Exclusive to your copy? I'm not buying that, sorry. If it's not your hardware/software then it's a corrupt installation. If it was me I would re-download the GWX files, run the Jonesoft MD5Mate to verify the files, then perform a full clean installation of SH3/GWX. If that doesn't fix it I'd be back to thinking hardware/system software. Btw, I just tried running plain vanilla full stock SH3 in naval academy\navigation\training. The diesel sound is there, but it is clearly more distinct, fuller, in GWX. The diesel noise stops and returns when I tell it to. Hardware, corruption or some incompatibility with your software, could there be another choice? There are a lot of people running GWX on Win7 without a problem. Personally, I'm still using Vista, problem free.

[Jimbuna]

I just completed a fresh installation of SH3, 1.4b cracked and GWX 3.0 Gold, no mods installed whatsoever. Running naval academy\navigation\training, from the F4 view (on the bridge) I clearly hear the diesels. I command "all stop" the diesel noise stops and all that can be heard is a gentle lapping of the waves. Command "ahead 1/3" the diesel noise returns. So what choices are we left with for the reason you can't hear the diesels? If the GWX team had commented out the diesel noise I would not hear it. Exclusive to your copy? I'm not buying that, sorry. If it's not your hardware/software then it's a corrupt installation. If it was me I would re-download the GWX files, run the Jonesoft MD5Mate to verify the files, then perform a full clean installation of SH3/GWX. If that doesn't fix it I'd be back to thinking hardware/system software. Btw, I just tried running plain vanilla full stock SH3 in naval academy\navigation\training. The diesel sound is there, but it is clearly more distinct, fuller, in GWX. The diesel noise stops and returns when I tell it to. Hardware, corruption or some incompatibility with your software, could there be another choice? There are a lot of people running GWX on Win7 without a problem. Personally, I'm still using Vista, problem free.


The original files...those from what all other sources have come from:

GWX3.exe http://www.mediafire.com/?rrc1f9j3zhz0p79

GWX3.1 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?i134px2bbp9rnp2

GWX3.2 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?szsdqpy2z56ckeo

GWX3.3 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?mj8wgdkkcrgzn6w

GWX3.4 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?nl8chscc003xswt

GWX3.5 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?2u85d50b8410cm4

GWX3.6 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?qbbl441v9t5rk2u

GWX3.7 bin http://www.mediafire.com/?20ciea1m71z74m7

GWX3_SH3Commandercfg http://www.mediafire.com/?c4oakjnc3tynwk5

SH3Commander 3.2 exe http://www.mediafire.com/?v8hgs2wkr53psmq

JSGME setup v2.6 exe http://www.mediafire.com/?5sryab9masy5xt6

[Sephiroth]

I downloaded GWX from the GWX site, so I know they're legit. I do not use SH3 Commander. I tried it and didn't care for it. Also, I only have JSGME due to the GWX install. Thanks for the links, but unless the files at this location (http://www.thegreywolves.com/downloads/) are different, those appear to be identical to what I downloaded.

Again, my only issue at this time appears to be the boat diesel engines when on the surface. The ships sound fine.

[Jimbuna]

There have been issues reported regarding the links on the official website in the past.

My posted links are the originals.

So whilst not being prepared to guarantee they will work they may still be worth a try.

[Sephiroth]

I did not know that. I will grab the files you posted tomorrow. Thanks!

[Jimbuna]

Good luck http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8636/cdw.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/cdw.gif/)

[Sephiroth]

That did it! I uninstalled, deleted the Ubisoft folder, deleted my SH3 folder, rebooted, installed, patched, cracked, installed GWX from your links, went right in and started a career. I now have diesel sounds again, both from the topside areas of my boat (con, AA gun, deck gun) but also from the free camera view. They do sound a LOT more like they should topside now, and less like a machine-gun up top. I also had my splashing sounds back as the boat moved through the ocean.

This brings up a question though. If this is the correct download, what the heck is linked on the GWX site? Can't the GWX team link to the files on MediaFire that you linked to me? I have been digging for over a week and found many others with sound issues like mine on both the official Ubisoft forums and other places, as well as one or two here.

Now, to make this easier for others, I am going to edit my initial post with the solution and what is not needed, such as compatibility mode. SH3 is 100% Windows 7 compatible and does not need anything special to run. Anyway, thanks to everybody for their suggestions and to Jimbuna for the solution. The diesels are still quiet, but loud enough to hear at 1/3 and very audible above that.

[Jimbuna]

That did it! I uninstalled, deleted the Ubisoft folder, deleted my SH3 folder, rebooted, installed, patched, cracked, installed GWX from your links, went right in and started a career. I now have diesel sounds again, both from the topside areas of my boat (con, AA gun, deck gun) but also from the free camera view. They do sound a LOT more like they should topside now, and less like a machine-gun up top. I also had my splashing sounds back as the boat moved through the ocean.

This brings up a question though. If this is the correct download, what the heck is linked on the GWX site? Can't the GWX team link to the files on MediaFire that you linked to me? I have been digging for over a week and found many others with sound issues like mine on both the official Ubisoft forums and other places, as well as one or two here.

Now, to make this easier for others, I am going to edit my initial post with the solution and what is not needed, such as compatibility mode. SH3 is 100% Windows 7 compatible and does not need anything special to run. Anyway, thanks to everybody for their suggestions and to Jimbuna for the solution. The diesels are still quiet, but loud enough to hear at 1/3 and very audible above that.

First off, I'm pleased your sorted.

The links on the website are to the same files as those on my Mediafire account, files used by thousands of GWX users since its release.

What we have noticed over the years are a small number of users reporting issues, so on two separate occasions we have updated the website with those from Mediafire.

There are many who have re-downloaded or re-installed the website files and experienced a successfull outcome so it is way beyond my or anyone else understanding what the problem must be I should imagine.

The GWX team ceased to exist a few years ago and as such I am one of the few still around and act as the repositry for the original files and the odd piece of advice when needed but judging by the number of GWX users here that is seldom needed.

My role here as a moderator on SubSim is a totally separate function.

SINK EM ALL!! http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8636/cdw.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/cdw.gif/)