An honest question for those to the Left... [Archive]

Ducimus

11-14-13, 05:08 PM

He's in his last term in office so the numbers don't mean crap.
Oh, wait! Congress is gonna impeach him right?
That should take hmmm......
Most of the last few years he'll be in Office?
:nope:

At least he's a lame duck. The real question and concern is, just how much more damage is he going to do before were finally rid of his lying ass? I mean, yeah, all politiicans lie, but not blatant and bold faced lies like Obama. Hell, there's video documentation of his reversals all over youtube, but one needs look no further then the Syria "red line" for an example of his blatant lying, let alone his statements about the so called "affordable" health care act.

@ bubbles,
Your not going to get the answer you were looking for. The question your asking is incredibly hard to word properly and not sound like your trying to rub feces in their faces.

vienna

11-14-13, 05:15 PM

Those supporting him now are his base, same as with any other politician.

So, the logic would follow that Obama's base is larger than those of Regan, Bush I, and Bush II. Interesting that Obama, an accursed liberal, would have a much more solid base among the population than the god-like mega-conservatives. That may also account for why, on matters such as abortion, prayer in school, and other mega-conservative memes, the polling numbers among the general public tend to be from 60-75% against the mega-conservatives on those issues. Perhaps the far-right perception of their own power base is predicated on false assumptions. I wonder what else they are wrong about... :hmmm:

<O>

GoldenRivet

11-14-13, 05:29 PM

Approval ratings are not necessarily the best way to gauge actual approval... i say this because i have seen - in the last month - Approval ratings for the current admin run anywhere from 35% to nearly 60% just depending on where you look for the data.

the problem is - were YOU polled?

no you probably weren't. these approval ratings are based off an arbitrary random dialing of 1,000 people and then just estimating that everyone in the nation would fall in line with the same approval : disapproval ratio as the 1,000 people who were polled on that given day.

so when you see that George W. Bush had a national presidential approval rating of say... 40% at any given moment - its the approval rating that 1,000 random people produced at that given moment.

there are what? 300,000,000 people in the United States give or take?

presidential approval ratings are bogus IMHO and are only the "best guess" product of a firm like Gallup.

sarcastically speaking, more work is put into surveying people for answers on "Family Feud".

Survey Says?

its hard to put your fingers upon the pulse of the Nation, especially a nation like the United States of America where the populace is made up of such a diverse, multicultural, multi-ethnic, multilingual, and multi-socioeconomic sampling like we are.

There are those who followed Bush to his political grave, there will be those who will stand by their guy B.O. until the day they line the streets to kis his ass and give him a saintly send off as being the first black president ever to grace the nation. (even though he has about as much in common with American Blacks as White people have in common with polar bears)

I think, in the past here at subsim i have made my opinion of the guy pretty clear, to the point that i literally had to make a post promising to severely limit my participation in politics here in GT. Thats a promise i have held up for years now. Only popping my head in for one or two posts and then excusing myself permanently from the conversation... Most of what i have to say about the current president would probably put me on the news or something. So i will just say that Politics in America has devolved to a point of drawing a line in the sand.

I know Democrat families who wont let their kids play with children from Republican families (and vicey versey)

I have had people become angry and i have had people become elated at the fact that i have a Gadsden Flag and an AR-15 bumper sticker on my truck.

I have lived to a point in my life where i have seen more division in the ranks of my countryman than i ever thought possible.

I have come to a point in time where we have our masters in Washington dominating every intricate detail of our lives with legislation which applies to all but those shouting underneath the domed capital chamber.

Every day we part with a little bigger piece of our rights, every day we accept, we surrender, we cow down to the concept that the men on the hill know how to better run our lives than we do. And so long as the right that is being stripped is not a right you use often or put little value on... its not a big deal to you in particular.

We have come to a point im America where we are encouraged by the government to report our neighbors to the authorities for owning firearms that hold more than 7 rounds. :nope:

Not long ago, my grandfather, and many of your grandfathers fought against those who would have you "do your patriotic duty and report your neighbor to the NSDAP for hiding the Jewish rats"

in the end, millions upon millions of people died for that little slice of security. and what have we really learned? :nope:

do i blame the current president for this? i hold him responsible, and those who came before him responsible for enabling it.

but the blame? the true people who should be subjected to approval ratings, and blame and responsibility?

the people

because for every single one of you and i who sincerely care about the state of the nation... there are a hundred thousand people who just want to go to starbucks, watch TV, strip themselves of all responsibility and let the men upon the hill do the thinking for them.

personally, I'm disgusted by all of it. And i think we have to try and take back what generations of good men have left for us before it is completely gone.

Tribesman

11-14-13, 05:39 PM

To the left of what? Obama and team D are right of center.
I think his numbers are holding up because the alternative has slipped further towards the loony fringe of the right pandering to the vocal minority who rant about god guns gays and abortion.
When its a two way choice between a typically useless ordinary politician and howling at the moon zealots the useless candidate will normally carry the day.

AVGWarhawk

11-14-13, 05:41 PM

At least he's a lame duck. The real question and concern is, just how much more damage is he going to do before were finally rid of his lying ass? I mean, yeah, all politiicans lie, but not blatant and bold faced lies like Obama. Hell, there's video documentation of his reversals all over youtube, but one needs look no further then the Syria "red line" for an example of his blatant lying, let alone his statements about the so called "affordable" health care act.

@ bubbles,
Your not going to get the answer you were looking for. The question your asking is incredibly hard to word properly and not sound like your trying to rub feces in their faces.

He is not a lame duck. He is skirting Constitutional law at will. He is changing laws like his underwear without Congress involvement. His middle name is becoming Executive Orders.

vienna

11-14-13, 05:41 PM

^ Agreed...

<O>

AVGWarhawk

11-14-13, 05:42 PM

GoldenRivet

11-14-13, 05:43 PM

When its a two way choice between a typically useless ordinary politician and howling at the moon zealots the useless candidate will normally carry the day.

This exactly.

This is why i no longer vote republican. The church has them by the nuts and they get nothing real and lasting done as a result

I consider myself socially liberal (minus the damned welfare state crap), fiscally conservative.

Ducimus

11-14-13, 05:44 PM

He is not a lame duck. He is skirting Constitutional law at will. He is changing laws like his underwear without Congress involvement. His middle name is becoming Executive Orders.

I didn't think myself all the way through I see. yeah, I forgot about that, though I don't know how. I stand corrected.

AVGWarhawk

11-14-13, 05:46 PM

This exactly.

This is why i no longer vote republican. The church has them by the nuts and they get nothing real and lasting done as a result

I consider myself socially liberal (minus the damned welfare state crap), fiscally conservative.

You mean just left of center with righty thrown in for good measure and balance. :haha:

Ducimus

11-14-13, 05:53 PM

This is why i no longer vote republican. The church has them by the nuts and they get nothing real and lasting done as a result

I consider myself socially liberal (minus the damned welfare state crap), fiscally conservative.

The problem is our two party system has our government by the nuts. Were forced into voting for R or D, with little in between.

Next election I plan to vote first and foremost for any Libertarian (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/album.php?albumid=677&pictureid=7102) candidates. Failing that, ill be forced to vote republican though. After the events of the last few years, if I vote republican, it will be out of spite for the democrats, because I do not want to see them maintain their current level of power in the government. That said, in my heart of hearts, I don't want the Republicans having as much power as they did in the past, nor as much as the Democrats currently enjoy either.

EDIT:
MUCH could be accomplished with congressional term limits, but good luck getting congress to pass a bill to limit their own tenure in office.

Madox58

11-14-13, 05:56 PM

Vote None of the above.
They are all liars and thieves. That's why they run in the first place.

Skybird

11-14-13, 05:56 PM

Hopefully, can keep this civil.This is a honest question, Obama's poll numbers have fallen to 38-39% or so, I wonder how can they be that high? I understand, some people just won't admit when they are wrong, will go down with a sinking ship, true believers etc. However, most in the 39% may have legitimate reasons for still supporting this man.I am curious as to how and why? Given all the scandals, dirt, etc and now the ultimate symbol of his incompetence, etc, obamacare, is a failure, as knew it would be since it was passed.I just want to know why someone honestly supports him still.

Why? - "It's sufficient to systemize nonsense to make it the belief of many." (Nicolás Gómez Dávila). - That's why.

(translated from this German quote: Es reicht aus, daß man einen Unsinn systematisiert, damit er zur Meinung von vielen wird.

Tribesman

11-14-13, 06:32 PM

Why? - "It's sufficient to systemize nonsense to make it the belief of many." (Nicolás Gómez Dávila). - That's why.

But is he talking of his belief in the rejection of democratic political powers or his belief in the traditionalist political powers of the Vatican?

Oberon

11-14-13, 06:34 PM

Ducimus

11-14-13, 06:39 PM

He's not the messiah, and I think that only his die-hard fans thought that. He's also not the anti-christ, he's just another president who will be gone in three years so another president can take charge and either the same group of people or a different group of people can start complaining about him depending on what political party he is affiliated to.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Here's a thought:
There are congressman who have seen presidents come and go. They must have themselves quite the "good ole boys" club going.

I strongly believe not much is ever going to change in our government, until we have congressional term limits. Limit them to the same as the president, a maximum of two terms. I see this as having innumerable positive effects, but it's a pipe dream. It's asking those in power, to give up that power. A naive altruistic dream at its finest. It won't ever happen.

Oberon

11-14-13, 06:46 PM

Here's a thought:
There are congressman who have seen presidents come and go. They must have themselves quite the "good ole boys" club going.

I strongly believe not much is ever going to change in our government, until we have congressional term limits. Limit them to the same as the president, a maximum of two terms. I see this as having innumerable positive effects, but it's a pipe dream. It's asking those in power, to give up that power. A naive altruistic dream at its finest. It won't ever happen.

Exactly, the President is just a figurehead, a mouth-piece, a surprisingly limited position of power. The real power is the people behind the president, those who pull the strings, prepare the dossiers, fund the campaigns. That's where the problem lies. It's like when you weed, if you just cut off the bit that's above the ground, then the weed grows back, it's the bits you can't see that linger.

Tribesman

11-14-13, 06:46 PM

Here's a thought:

Here's a thought.
Lame duck presidents bring problems over accountability.
Making a couple of hundred lame duck congressmen will obviously bring a couple of hundred more of the same problems.
Nice idea though, but it has its downside as well as it up.

Platapus

11-14-13, 09:51 PM

He's not the messiah, and I think that only his die-hard fans thought that.

I can only remember Republicans calling Obama the Messiah when they are trying to deride him. I have not heard any Democrats refer to him as that.

Armistead

11-14-13, 10:27 PM

The problem is our two party system has our government by the nuts. Were forced into voting for R or D, with little in between.

Next election I plan to vote first and foremost for any Libertarian (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/album.php?albumid=677&pictureid=7102) candidates. Failing that, ill be forced to vote republican though. After the events of the last few years, if I vote republican, it will be out of spite for the democrats, because I do not want to see them maintain their current level of power in the government. That said, in my heart of hearts, I don't want the Republicans having as much power as they did in the past, nor as much as the Democrats currently enjoy either.

EDIT:
MUCH could be accomplished with congressional term limits, but good luck getting congress to pass a bill to limit their own tenure in office.

That is much of the problem, a two party system that has control due to mass funding. It's rare a 3rd party can run and even when one does it usually splits the vote. In the end, most will vote for the GOP or Dems because they know they're throwing their vote away on a 3rd party.

I do think the future is a socially liberal, fiscally conservative platform.
That is where I now stand even at my age. Others are right, the religious right has the GOP by the nuts and will be hard for them to win national office spouting right wing religious ideals.

It will take a big person that can get major backing to start a 3rd party or run as an Ind. with a chance of winning....a Bill Gates type....

TarJak

11-14-13, 11:59 PM

He already runs a fair proportion of the country now. Why would he want to subject himself to an electoral process as tortuous as yours?

CaptainMattJ.

11-15-13, 03:03 AM

I dont particularly like him. I think he is a mediocre leader and just another inefficient talking-head politician. But that doesn't mean he hasn't accomplished anything. Even though it is flawed and in dire need of mending, the ACA was a bold and necessary bill. To claim that this country's healthcare system was "fine" before is absolutely ridiculous. We desperately needed to reform our healthcare system, and the ACA was the first step. It still has alot of flaws, and it still has a LONG way to go. But with alot of amending and additions to the bill, it may, in the future, become the best thing Obama did in his 2 terms, aside from maybe bailing out the automotive industry/wall street to save them from collapse (along with all the jobs and financing handled by those companies). He also beat around the bush so as to avoid getting involved in Syria, which would've been disastrous.

That's about as far as my praise goes, though. Everything else hes done has either been mediocre or a disaster. Some issues were to be expected though. Its highly doubtful scandals like the NSA wouldn't have happened under another president, seeing as how those kinds of operations have been going on for 65 years now under all kinds of presidents, wiretapping and such. Every president has had a fair share of scandals, or coverups, or something that angers the people for a few weeks before it slips onto the backburner.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 05:52 AM

He did not reform healthcare. He reformed insurance. The ACA is the last step. Lowering cost makes thing affordable. Throwing more money at the healthcare high cost is not reform.

Ducimus

11-15-13, 08:58 AM

I can only remember Republicans calling Obama the Messiah when they are trying to deride him. I have not heard any Democrats refer to him as that.

No, with hardcore democrat types, the way they speak, and look towards obama, it's not a stretch to say that Obama is thought of as "The chosen one". Messiah has a religous connotation, and that doesn't fit in the Democrat political lexicon.

Tchocky

11-15-13, 09:54 AM

He did not reform healthcare. He reformed insurance. The ACA is the last step. Lowering cost makes thing affordable. Throwing more money at the healthcare high cost is not reform.

So to you the cost controls in the PPACA don't exist. Are we seeing faster or slower medical inflation right now?

Edit - harsher than I meant it. What I'm getting at is that some of the non-insurance cost control aspects seem to be working quite well so far.
And to speak to the wider effects of the law - even if a GOP House, Senate and Presidency totally repeal Obamacare, you will never again be denied insurance because of a pre existing condition. Because good luck to the politician arguing for THAT.

To counter a small part of bubbles original post, in which he declared Obamacare a failure.

You're talking about a long-lasting and far-reaching piece of legislation that has been off the ground for a very short time. There are a lot of problems, some expected, some unexpected. Some inexcusable, some understandable.

But you don't declare a winner in the marathon after three miles. You can start predicting after ten, fifteen. Give it time. Whether you want it to succeed or fail, calling the game five minutes in is worse than useless.

Although as usual here in the Seventh Level of nice people saying ridiculous things, deaf ears, deaf ears.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 09:55 AM

No, with hardcore democrat types, the way they speak, and look towards obama, it's not a stretch to say that Obama is thought of as "The chosen one". Messiah has a religous connotation, and that doesn't fit in the Democrat political lexicon.

Like Pelosi.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.politicsdaily.com/media/2010/03/pelosi-health-care-pen-obama.jpg

Then there is this look of utter disgust by a non-team member.

http://images.politico.com/global/news/101216_boehner_pelosi_obama_ap_605.jpg

Tchocky

11-15-13, 09:59 AM

Well that's as scientific as it gets, folks.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 10:36 AM

Well that's as scientific as it gets, folks.

Yep, about the same amount of attention and business theory used to create a HC law that involved understanding the open markets concerning insurance companies that these Senators know little about.

Pelosi: "Pass Health Reform So You Can Find Out What’s In It" This is very scientific.

Tchocky

11-15-13, 10:40 AM

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 11:03 AM

That's pithy but wrong.

There's plenty of understanding of how the individual health insurance market worked (or didn't work, to be more accurate).
Hence higher standards for plans, subsidies to help for higher quality (therefore higher cost) plans, and a mandate to ensure risk-pooling to keep the cost balance right and to ensure that the market, you know, functions as a service delivery mechanism.

But I'll admit there's nothing like facial expressions to appeal to people who already agree with you.

Who understands it? If it was understood we would not be in this predicament. The insurance folks understood it. These folks advised DC what would occur. I find it hard to believe they stood quietly by. Wyoming Senator Enzi in 2010 understood it. He read the bill. The others have very little understanding or choice not to understand it once explained. Bill signed. I will not be convinced that those in DC have a true understanding of open market. It is not open. Each state has less than a handful to compare pricing. Each county in the state reduces that handful even more. True open market is having access to all including over state lines.

Onkel Neal

11-15-13, 11:17 AM

Hopefully, can keep this civil.This is a honest question, Obama's poll numbers have fallen to 38-39% or so, I wonder how can they be that high? I understand, some people just won't admit when they are wrong, will go down with a sinking ship, true believers etc. However, most in the 39% may have legitimate reasons for still supporting this man.I am curious as to how and why? Given all the scandals, dirt, etc and now the ultimate symbol of his incompetence, etc, obamacare, is a failure, as knew it would be since it was passed.I just want to know why someone honestly supports him still.

Hi level of scandals, dirt, incompetence is pretty much on par with the last two presidents, so what.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 11:40 AM

Tchocky

11-15-13, 12:20 PM

Who understands it? If it was understood we would not be in this predicament. The insurance folks understood it. These folks advised DC what would occur. I find it hard to believe they stood quietly by. Wyoming Senator Enzi in 2010 understood it. He read the bill. The others have very little understanding or choice not to understand it once explained. Bill signed. I will not be convinced that those in DC have a true understanding of open market. It is not open. Each state has less than a handful to compare pricing. Each county in the state reduces that handful even more. True open market is having access to all including over state lines.

What predicament?

If you're talking about website problems, that's an implementation problem that will get fixed, not something due to misunderstanding markets.

If you're talking about cancelled plans, it's not a predicament at all. It's supposed to happen. Nobody should be surprised by this. Politicians aren't and insurers aren't. Politicians who say they are are just riding public anger. It's disingenuous.

The president never should have made that promise. It's true for the vast majority of customers, but flat out wrong for enough people to make out a stupid statement to make, and even worse to stick by.

People with low-cost low-coverage individual plans susceptible to rescission lost those plans because they are not up to ACA standards. They were always going to lose those plans, they can get much better, subsidised (mostly) coverage through exchanges.

The stupid part of all this fuss is that nobody keeps their plan year to year, realistically speaking. Year to year, deductibles change, coverage changes, networks change. If these cancelled plans are brought back, under the legislation regarding preexisting conditions etc - they won't be profitable for insurers, suo they'll just up premiums to make up the difference.

Ducimus

11-15-13, 12:24 PM

Hi level of scandals, dirt, incompetence is pretty much on par with the last two presidents, so what.

True, but some scandals are much more resounding than others. This one ranks right up at the top area of not so good for all involved.

A thought hit me the other day, and I just didn't bother posting it until now. There is this argument that I think we have all used, myself included.

The words used vary, but the statement is essentially the same. Some off the cuff examples:
- "Yeah well, this ex president did this that and this other thing"
- "All politicians lie"
- "So what, on par with the last two presidents" (not picking on you neal, you just happen to use the classic example)

Old schoolyard sayings that are more or less equivalent:
- "I know what you are but what am i"
- "Yeah, well, your mamma wears combat boots!"

This argument, this statement, is a defense given when there is no defense. It's an attempt to level the morality playing field in order to remove the wrong doings of whatever political topic is being discussed by passing it as something normal; hence rendering the verbal attack as moot or irrelevant.

Here's the thing, past wrong doings of past politicians do not make the current wrong doings of current politicians any less wrong or egregious. Wrong is wrong no matter how you slice it, and as another old saying goes, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Sailor Steve

11-15-13, 01:11 PM

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 01:53 PM

Tchocky:
If you're talking about website problems, that's an implementation problem that will get fixed, not something due to misunderstanding markets.

No I'm not. The website is a disgrace, cash grab by a no bid contractor and three years with nothing to show for it. Disgraceful.

If you're talking about cancelled plans, it's not a predicament at all. It's supposed to happen. Nobody should be surprised by this. Politicians aren't and insurers aren't. Politicians who say they are are just riding public anger. It's disingenuous.

Yes sir, we should be surprised by this. "If you like your plan you can keep it. Period" Seems clear to me. Wyoming Senator Enzi knew this was coming in 2010 because he read the bill. The others summarily ignored him. But yes, disingenuous is dead on.

The president never should have made that promise. It's true for the vast majority of customers, but flat out wrong for enough people to make out a stupid statement to make, and even worse to stick by.

Agreed. He knowingly perpetrated the falsehood. I also believe he knew that delaying the employer mandate would push this forthcoming cancellations past the next election cycle and help control the fire started by the individual mandate coming into play producing cancellations currently.

People with low-cost low-coverage individual plans susceptible to rescission lost those plans because they are not up to ACA standards. They were always going to lose those plans, they can get much better, subsidised (mostly) coverage through exchanges.

Sadly, "If you like your plan you can keep it. Period" was what was peddled to the voting public. Grandfathered in was peddled to the voting public. Granddad just died. No where did BO or anyone else gung ho for the legislation state if you are not up to snuff you will be dropped.

The stupid part of all this fuss is that nobody keeps their plan year to year, realistically speaking. Year to year, deductibles change, coverage changes, networks change. If these cancelled plans are brought back, under the legislation regarding preexisting conditions etc - they won't be profitable for insurers, suo they'll just up premiums to make up the difference.

Plenty keep their plan year to year. Our premiums increase but by and large the plan remains the same. Here is the catch with the "Grandfather Clause", if any changes to your plan occur the Grandfathering is now null and void. This change in the law was perpetrated over a year ago. They knew folks do change or tweak their insurances from year to year. It was a set up plus it prevents people from rushing to change their plans to dirt cheap and avoid having to use the Market Place. Cleverly laid out.

Ducimus

11-15-13, 01:59 PM

While the above is undeniably true, that particular response is usually aimed not at the acknowledgement that a president has done wrong, but at the one-sided accusation that the president in question is the bad guy for doing so. Both sides play the game of "see how bad yours is" while conveniently ignoring the wrongdoings of their own. It's not that both sides do it, it's that both sides act like it's something new, and somehow the other side's guy is "the worst ever."

It just ain't so.

From a practical point of view, I would argue that the "worst" is whoever the current office holder is for one simple reason. The current office hold is still in power, and able to do further harm. The past office holder is no longer in power, and is no longer able to cause further harm. They are irrelevant, though granted they may have left a policy legacy that continues to be felt. (Like the Patriot act :shifty: )

However, to put it another way, one should be concerned about the threat that is closest to them, not one that is way down the street and round the corner down memory lane. Of course I'm speaking mainly for myself. I'm probably pragmatic in this regard to an excess. In any event, I reject the notion of the argument that I talked about in my previous post. Just because dillweeds in the past were abusive in office, doesn't mean the current dillweed can be abusive. That is no excuse, nor justfication, nor a defense.

Sailor Steve

11-15-13, 02:11 PM

Just because dillweeds in the past were abusive in office, doesn't mean the current dillweed can be abusive. That is no excuse, nor justfication, nor a defense.
I completely agree. My comment wasn't directed toward better, worse or worst, just at the people who only make the accusations when it's convenient for them. It's not "Your guy did it too!" so much as "I didn't hear you saying anything when your guy was doing it."

Ducimus

11-15-13, 02:22 PM

I completely agree. My comment wasn't directed toward better, worse or worst, just at the people who only make the accusations when it's convenient for them. It's not "Your guy did it too!" so much as "I didn't hear you saying anything when your guy was doing it."

That is a valid and excellent point. There are a lot of "team players". Be that team an ideology or the team that embodies that ideology. Now that I think about it, in one way or another, we are all team players. The only difference is what team we are fanboys of. I'm a big fan of the Constitution myself, even though far too many our politicians like to use it for toilet paper.

Bubblehead1980

11-15-13, 02:53 PM

So to you the cost controls in the PPACA don't exist. Are we seeing faster or slower medical inflation right now?

Edit - harsher than I meant it. What I'm getting at is that some of the non-insurance cost control aspects seem to be working quite well so far.
And to speak to the wider effects of the law - even if a GOP House, Senate and Presidency totally repeal Obamacare, you will never again be denied insurance because of a pre existing condition. Because good luck to the politician arguing for THAT.

To counter a small part of bubbles original post, in which he declared Obamacare a failure.

You're talking about a long-lasting and far-reaching piece of legislation that has been off the ground for a very short time. There are a lot of problems, some expected, some unexpected. Some inexcusable, some understandable.

But you don't declare a winner in the marathon after three miles. You can start predicting after ten, fifteen. Give it time. Whether you want it to succeed or fail, calling the game five minutes in is worse than useless.

Although as usual here in the Seventh Level of nice people saying ridiculous things, deaf ears, deaf ears.

No, it is already a failure, it was a failure from the moment it passed because it is an idiotic law.Premiums have skyrocketed for many, have been for a while, why? The taxes in this law cause costs to rise.The 15% tax on medical equipment for example.After it makes cost for everyone in the supply chain go up, who do you think will fit the bill via higher premiums(many already have)? The consumer, the now mandated(unconstitutionally, whatever the supreme court and corrupt justice robert's alleged in the most striking case of intellectual dishonesty I have seen in a long time) is stuck.Many have had their plans canceled because they don't meet the "standards" of obamacare.Yea, like men having to carry maternity coverage on their polices? lol Why people can not see how wrong it is to have the government dictate why health policy you carry, is just a sign of the sad state this country is in.All this bill has done is cause massive upheaval in a major part of our economy, and tamper with the best health care system in the world.Our quality is great, it's why so many from even places like canada with "universal healthcare" come here, but we get low rankings because a minority of citizens do not have health insurance.That contradicts Democratic collective logic, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few right? Most American's had healthcare but out of 317 million roughly 40 million did not? Even after this monstrosity is in full effect, still probably have same amount or or more without care because many won't be able to afford it and will not qualify for subsidies.This is in the long run just an underhanded expansion of the welfare state, it is a disaster and only way to "fix it" would be to overhaul it so much, it will look nothing like the law passed in 2010 but then Dems would claim it worked! it worked! Law needs to be repealed and replaced.

The few good things, such as no denial for pre existing conditions, young adults can stay until 26, they do not warrant keeping such a dangerous, idiotic law in place but should be part of any replacement, good politics and decency demand it.

Honestly, if this was ever about actual healthcare, they would have simply made medicaid an option for everyone who wanted health insurance, and put things such as tort reform, allow insurance to be purchased across state lines, bringing competition , which as we know would cause costs to go down but NO, they wanted a big government, intrusive law, and well, we have the cluster that it is.

Bubblehead1980

11-15-13, 03:03 PM

What predicament?

If you're talking about website problems, that's an implementation problem that will get fixed, not something due to misunderstanding markets.

If you're talking about cancelled plans, it's not a predicament at all. It's supposed to happen. Nobody should be surprised by this. Politicians aren't and insurers aren't. Politicians who say they are are just riding public anger. It's disingenuous.

The president never should have made that promise. It's true for the vast majority of customers, but flat out wrong for enough people to make out a stupid statement to make, and even worse to stick by.

People with low-cost low-coverage individual plans susceptible to rescission lost those plans because they are not up to ACA standards. They were always going to lose those plans, they can get much better, subsidised (mostly) coverage through exchanges.

The stupid part of all this fuss is that nobody keeps their plan year to year, realistically speaking. Year to year, deductibles change, coverage changes, networks change. If these cancelled plans are brought back, under the legislation regarding preexisting conditions etc - they won't be profitable for insurers, suo they'll just up premiums to make up the difference.

That idiotic line being perpetuated , "up to ACA standards" is a large part of what is wrong here! Healthcare is a private choice, government has not one GD bit of business dictating what type of coverage citizens carry.Someone wants a bare bones policy, that is their choice! The government does not know better than the individual.

I am so sick of the collectivism, this country is about the rights of the INDIVIDUAL. I am without health insurance, can no longer be on my parents, I am in my final year of school, work a part time position, can't afford it and don't want it.Assuming there is still private insurance I can afford once graduate in the spring and am working full time, I will purchase it but being young, if I only want a policy that covers certain things, that should be my choice.I know what is best for me, not some bozos in Washington. I really hate the current state my country is in, our tolerance has been our undoing.Tolerating the destructive "progressive" ideology and especially the left wing crap the surfaced in the 60's and 70's, is a large part of what has lead to our undoing.I believe in free speech but our culture tolerating collectivism has undermined this country.Sadly, there is no place to retreat to on this planet as there once was for oppressed people.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 03:12 PM

That idiotic line being perpetuated , "up to ACA standards" is a large part of what is wrong here! Healthcare is a private choice, government has not one GD bit of business dictating what type of coverage citizens carry.Someone wants a bare bones policy, that is their choice! The government does not know better than the individual.

I am so sick of the collectivism, this country is about the rights of the INDIVIDUAL. I am without health insurance, can no longer be on my parents, I am in my final year of school, work a part time position, can't afford it and don't want it.Assuming there is still private insurance I can afford once graduate in the spring and am working full time, I will purchase it but being young, if I only want a policy that covers certain things, that should be my choice.I know what is best for me, not some bozos in Washington. I really hate the current state my country is in, our tolerance has been our undoing.Tolerating the destructive "progressive" ideology and especially the left wing crap the surfaced in the 60's and 70's, is a large part of what has lead to our undoing.I believe in free speech but our culture tolerating collectivism has undermined this country.Sadly, there is no place to retreat to on this planet as there once was for oppressed people.

Nancy Pelosi knows what's best for you sweety. Don't you fret now.

:O:

:haha:

Tribesman

11-15-13, 03:29 PM

That idiotic line being perpetuated , "up to ACA standards" is a large part of what is wrong here! Healthcare is a private choice, government has not one GD bit of business dictating what type of coverage citizens carry.Someone wants a bare bones policy, that is their choice! The government does not know better than the individual.

.
Healthcare is only a "private choice" in the very narrowest definition.
The government has every right to legislate coverage because when those with bare bones policies(or no policy) screw up its the taxpayer and other policy holders who foot the bill.
Your argument rests on the basis of "the government is going to make us pay", that is an entirely false position as you already pay, in fact you pay more than other industrialised nations and received an inferior service for all that expense.

I am so sick of the collectivism, this country is about the rights of the INDIVIDUAL.
No it isn't, it is about the rights of the individual and the rights of all citizens, just like most other countries.

mapuc

11-15-13, 03:40 PM

Those who support Obama, sees no scandal, whereas those who dislike him sees scandals in every corner

This is an all American thread-Bubblehead asked his fellow American a question.

It was just my thougt as an person outside America.

Markus

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 04:04 PM

Tribesman:
Healthcare is only a "private choice" in the very narrowest definition.

But still a choice.

The government has every right to legislate coverage because when those with bare bones policies(or no policy) screw up its the taxpayer and other policy holders who foot the bill.

No they don't. They can legislate taxes as SCOTUS ruled. It has been accepted for decades that premiums pay for the uninsured as well as tax payers. Knowing some are not covered enough the insurance companies judge what premiums should be. All State Car Insurance makes predictions of possible claims each year. Premiums are adjusted to cover the projected cost. If claims fall below the projected number, checks are cut to the policy holders. All State does not simply keep the cash. We don't need government to run a similar type program. And we can't simply write off those on Medicaid. It is another entitlement and no matter who is in the driver seat both always look to the tax payers to fill the void.

Your argument rests on the basis of "the government is going to make us pay", that is an entirely false position as you already pay, in fact you pay more than other industrialised nations and received an inferior service for all that expense.

All well and good sir, however, we are now paying more! Yahoo! Added bonus, still getting the inferior service that is about to get worse. Would you be happy paying more for the same inferior service? What other industrialized nation pay is meaningless. The approach to HC here in the US was done backwards. Get a handle on HC cost. Reign them in. Then approach insurances for everyone.

Tribesman

11-15-13, 06:32 PM

But still a choice.

Only if you have a "no healthcare please" tattoo on your forehead.

No they don't.
If, as you note, they pick up the bill, they have the right.

All well and good sir, however, we are now paying more!
Some people are paying more this year, some are paying less.
Can you remind me about the legislation. How many more years does it set out as the predicted time frame for reducing costs?

What other industrialized nation pay is meaningless.
How is a comparative measure meaningless?

The approach to HC here in the US is backwards.
fixed that for ya.
And the ACA is not a good bill either, its far too half arsed, and far too beholden to the industry which was running riot in the first place.

AVGWarhawk

11-15-13, 10:49 PM

Tribesman:
If, as you note, they pick up the bill, they have the right.

As I note, the tax payers send in cash as required. Weekly and once a year. The tax are in the form of dollars. These dollars from the tax payers back the blank check they write. No sir, they do not pick up the bill. The tax payer picks up the bill.

Some people are paying more this year, some are paying less.
Can you remind me about the legislation. How many more years does it set out as the predicted time frame for reducing costs?

Who is paying less? The site is down. 27k actually signed up. Probably those that never had insurance. We are not sure. The WH is not saying much of anything. Many will be paying more as a result of cancelled policies. Others will have premiums increased to cover those auto-enrolled into Medicaid. As well as those that are very sick from pre-existing conditions that now can obtain insurance. Let's also mention those with Cadillac plans will be taxed. I have yet to hear any family saving $2500/year on a family plan as peddled by POTUS. So, you questioned how many years out to predict a time frame for reducing costs? Damn fine question. Perhaps a question that should have been asked 3 years ago. Silly us for believing DC knows what they are doing. But hey, just for fun and because no one really knows how much this will cost and BO has no issue spewing the word trillion like pig caller at a hog calling contest lets just jack everyone up and hope for the best. Sound plan IMO.

And the ACA is not a good bill either, its far too half arsed, and far too beholden to the industry which was running riot in the first place.

Yes it is half arsed. It accomplished one thing. More riot in an industry already in a riot situation. The entire system is in utter shambles. Nice work.