Convoy hunting = frustrating!

[Raven Morpheus]

Hey there

I've been playing SH4 the last few days, I've got the Game Fixes Only mod installed (and that's the only mod I've got installed) and I'm finding convoy hunting frustrating.

It's my first mission and I've been assigned the Honshu area mission.

So far I've managed to find 2 convoys.

However neither of them seemed to travel in a straight line!

I've tried getting closer to a ship, so the line turns into a red marker on the nav map, and then following it with a little time compression on and it seems they move away from me all the time, curving their routes around all over the place.

When I save and re-load a game however and go to the nav map I can briefly see before the red markers disappear that all the ships in a convoy appear to be as you expect - in a line moving in one direction. So I try to mark their predicted course (you'd expect them to move in a straight line forwards) by marking a corridor with 2 lines either side of the convoy going in the rough direction they're pointing, but they never follow that path! They always seem to turn away from that route and then seem to start moving all over the place!

The convoys I've found also seem to have very large gaps between each ship (far larger than convoys on SH5, something like 2000 yards or more) and they're escorted by destroyers, which so far have managed to find me every single time even though it looks like there is fog and I'm at periscope depth, not moving and on silent running!

I'd just love to find a convoy that follows a straight path with no deviations so I can intercept it!

Any tips on following convoys like the one's I've mentioned above that I've encountered?

TIA

[ZAGOR64BZ]

Hi man!
I'm far from been an expert by any means, but have you ever considered the fact that the behave like that because they spot you? Are you getting too close before diving?If spotted, the convoy will scattered and not following predictable routes. As far as DD, active sonar can and will detect you even standing still at periscope depth. Only thermal layer con conceal you.MOST OF THE TIMES, but not allways!

[fireftr18]

Zagor has a point. You may have been spotted or found by pinging. Best to get deep and follow the convoy via sonar. Wait until it's close to go to periscope depth. Also remember, the convoys will turn course just like the did in real life.

[merc4ulfate]

If you playing the Allied side I would highly advice you to get TMO, RSRD and /or the RFB mods. They have more of a normal shipping traffic in historically known shipping lanes.

There is nothing wrong with spotting convoys on the surface but perhaps your attack and evasion methods need to be worked on. The large mod packs also make the escorts and operation of the submarine more realistic. Things such as fish loading times, dive times, and efficiency of the escorts are generally made to be more realistic. For most if not all larger mod packs you will need to upgrade the stock game to 1.5.

That being said realism can get you killed so happy sailing on that.

If you enjoy playing the German side as I do then this mod list is the best:

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
OpsMonsun_V705
OMv705_to_V720
OMv720_Patch5
OMEGU_v300
OMEGU_v300_Patch7
OM_Harder_Escort_L2
UBM Missions
Popular German Music From The 30´s
OM_Pac_Env
#1 Real Environment mod install

[Raven Morpheus]

Thanks.

I'll try diving to the thermal layer and see if I get any better results (although I'm not 100% sure of how to follow contacts on SONAR) - how deep is the thermal layer BTW?

Also need to work out the diving controls as well, in SH5 I use the keyboard shortcuts or the menu buttons along the left side - in SH4 the only thing I can find so far is 1 "periscope depth" button or "crash dive" button or the dial - I'd rather use keyboard shortcuts for diving to specific depths than use the dial as it's qiucker, guess I'll have to check the manual.

I'm kind of a noob anyway, in SH5 I generally spot convoys from persicope depth and don't seem to generally have any trouble doing it.

I also don't like the way the ship contacts are represented on the nav map in SH4 - usually they're just a line (blue for warships and black for merchants), you seem to have to get really close and be at periscope depth to get a proper red mark showing the little ship icon. That works fine in SH5 for me, but obviously it's not working for me in SH4.

Perhaps I'm looking at the map in too high a scale but all I generally see (apart from the contact reports you get once in a while) is those lines and they don't make tracking a convoy easy because I can't properly see which direction the convoy is moving in so I always end up having to follow them rather than plot an intercept course.


As for playing as the Germans, I was getting bored of playing Das Boot in SH5 (even with Open Horizons II) and I've barely got past the first part of the campaign. Hence I'm now playing SH4 - change of theatre and all that.

Thanks for the suggested list of mods though.

I do have TMO, so I may install that (I previously played SH4 with it but gave up after a while, I got frustrated with having to wait hours just to get to a destination (even with time compression), but I've gotten used to that with SH5). Haven't got RSRD so I'll look that one up.

Maybe I just had bad luck with these 2 convoys but it definitely seems harder to track convoys in SH4 compared to SH5.

[magic452]

You might pick up some good info here.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=208242

Magic

[fireftr18]

Thanks.

I'll try diving to the thermal layer and see if I get any better results (although I'm not 100% sure of how to follow contacts on SONAR) - how deep is the thermal layer BTW?

The thermal layer varies. You need to check it every game, even in different areas. Be sure to go about 50 feet below.

Also need to work out the diving controls as well, in SH5 I use the keyboard shortcuts or the menu buttons along the left side - in SH4 the only thing I can find so far is 1 "periscope depth" button or "crash dive" button or the dial - I'd rather use keyboard shortcuts for diving to specific depths than use the dial as it's qiucker, guess I'll have to check the manual.

Keyboard shortcuts have a "dive" button and a "level off" button, but no specific depth. I like clicking on the dial myself, so I don't know those off the top of my head.

I'm kind of a noob anyway, in SH5 I generally spot convoys from persicope depth and don't seem to generally have any trouble doing it.

I also don't like the way the ship contacts are represented on the nav map in SH4 - usually they're just a line (blue for warships and black for merchants), you seem to have to get really close and be at periscope depth to get a proper red mark showing the little ship icon. That works fine in SH5 for me, but obviously it's not working for me in SH4.

Perhaps I'm looking at the map in too high a scale but all I generally see (apart from the contact reports you get once in a while) is those lines and they don't make tracking a convoy easy because I can't properly see which direction the convoy is moving in so I always end up having to follow them rather than plot an intercept course.

You really need to use the map tools. By marking the lines as they move, you can get the direction of travel. From there you can plot a proper intercept course. You don't get the little ship icons until you have visual contact.


As for playing as the Germans, I was getting bored of playing Das Boot in SH5 (even with Open Horizons II) and I've barely got past the first part of the campaign. Hence I'm now playing SH4 - change of theatre and all that.

Thanks for the suggested list of mods though.

I do have TMO, so I may install that (I previously played SH4 with it but gave up after a while, I got frustrated with having to wait hours just to get to a destination (even with time compression), but I've gotten used to that with SH5). Haven't got RSRD so I'll look that one up.

Maybe I just had bad luck with these 2 convoys but it definitely seems harder to track convoys in SH4 compared to SH5.

While learning the controls, I suggest waiting on installing TMO. Also, the tutorial missions are your friend. The first one is great for learning and practicing the navigation, diving, and detection controls. Make generous use of it.

[merc4ulfate]

If you want to add a real challenge to the game your should turn the auto targeting off and simply use manual targeting practices. You would not have to worry about colored lines nor arrow indicators in the scope you can fire when you are pleased with your own solution.

I do not even compute solutions any more. Most of the time I can line myself up so close that I can simply fire when the target is 10 degrees off zero and get hits. Even during the day I can normally get inside a convoy and fire from the stern and forward tubes at two ships simultaneously and wait for a second ship to cross my bow for another shot before having to dive to escape escorts. It helps greatly to have the German G7es homing torpedoes. Many times I allow the escorts to see me and then dive to lead them away from the convoy and then take them out first before attacking to the convoy itself with torpedoes and deck gun.

Some of the environmental mods increases the fog and therefore reduces surface distances where the AI's see you so being that I can control the deck gun myself I can see silhouettes in the fog where my AI crew members can not and use the deck gun without having the opposing vessel fire back. They simply can not see me. On my last patrol I took out 2/3's of the convoy this way after sinking all the escorts with the G7e's.

[SnipersHunter]

Zagor has a point. You may have been spotted or found by pinging. Best to get deep and follow the convoy via sonar. Wait until it's close to go to periscope depth. Also remember, the convoys will turn course just like the did in real life.

Yepp that should it be

[Raven Morpheus]

OK so I've tried what you guys have said and I still can't do it.

I decided to try out the Sub School convoy attack mission.

First thing I do is dive to max depth on the dial to get below the thermal layer. Seems to be between 140ft and max depth on the Sub School mission.

The ship icons are still present but disappearing so after marking the position of the ship that is last in line but on the line of ships closest to me, I proceed with marking the end of the line that represents the position of the ship I just marked. I don't time my marks or anything I just do it when there's a fair gap between the last mark and the new position.

Then after I've got a few marks I start plotting the line the ship should be taking, joining the dots, thus giving me the supposed heading of the convoy.

Then I plot my intercept course.

All the while I'm moving at 2/3 or standard under the water at max depth on the dial.

I mark a circle of about 1000yds radius starting from the point I shall arrive at so that when I get into position I can wait within that circle and then when the ends of the lines you see drawn to indicate the ships are just within that circle I can come up to periscope depth.

In the meantime I set up my torpedos and TDC - I've been using the Dick O'Kane method for this, I seem to have it down to a tee in the torpedo Sub School mission. I set the periscope to 20 (because that's the direction the convoy is coming from), the range to 1500m-ish, the AOB to 70 (starboard with the GFO mod because the convoy is coming from my right) and the speed to 5kts, although I don't at this point know the speed as I've not measured but the markers when clicked on say slow and SONAR concurs.

So, I finally reach my position. I wait for the ships to get into the 1000yd circle and bring the boat up to 55ft, giving me 5ft to compensate for waves and I raise the periscope to take a look.


But I still find the ships have started circling as though they've spotted me!!!!


I've tried setting silent running, I've tried setting battle stations and I've tried crawling along at 1/3 (and ended up being outrun by the convoy)!!

[fireftr18]

The tutorial convoy is difficult compared to the base games career convoys. They're much better for practice.

[Raven Morpheus]

Well I nearly had them just now.

Although I was getting torpedoes exploding in the water before reaching the target which was 4000yds away. I'm guessing either I set the range too low or the torpedoes can't go that far.

So I thought I'd reload after having saved it when I was reaching position. But now, every time I reload, the ships just start turning towards me as though they instantly spot me whereas I comfortably sat at periscope depth watching them for a minute or so after my save point!!

I'll resume my career save and see if I have any better luck (have to find a convoy first) but at this point I'm actually considering going back to SH5 because tracking and taking down a convoy is just so much easier!!

[Admiral Halsey]

If your using the Mark 14 torp seeing it explode before hitting the target is normal before mid 1943.

[magic452]

That school mission is really messed up, for starters the second you start the mission you have already been seen by the escorts, you are far to close to do anything. By this time you should or would be at PD and have all of your firing data figured out. The mission is worthless IMO.

Read my post in the link I gave you. Do a War Patrol that starts after mid '43.
Find a single ship and get some experience with plotting and intercepts and how to approach a target.
You can also patrol around Luzon Strait and find convoys and put what you learned to good use.
Once you find a convoy save the game and get some practice on tracking it and how to best approach.
Just play the save a few times till you get the hang of it.
If you're playing stock there are plenty of targets out there but as opposed to the APO the PTO is a much bigger battlefield
and far more interesting.

Magic

[Raven Morpheus]

That school mission is really messed up, for starters the second you start the mission you have already been seen by the escorts, you are far to close to do anything. By this time you should or would be at PD and have all of your firing data figured out. The mission is worthless IMO.

Well yesterday when I tried the Sub School mission I managed to track them fine, although I did cheat a little and worked out that after a while they turn and come down the map towards you, so I noted a position that would be reasonable to intercept, started again and just went to that position (something like 154 18 by 124 54).

But as I said when I was aiming at the first ship that crossed my path, a ship that was >4km away the first torpedo I fired exploded in the water after what seemed only like a few hundred yards - which meant my cover was basically blown!!

And also even though I'd saved the game about a minute prior to that, when I reloaded it seemed as though I was instantly spotted!!


I will however try what you've suggested, although it's not the actual tracking bit I have a problem with at the moment - it's more getting into position to fire without a convoy/ship going nuts and circling all over the place and DD's depth charging the beejesus out of me.

So far apart from once yesterday (where I was given up by a dodgy torpedo) it seems that even if I creep into position under the thermal layer as soon as I come up to periscope depth convoys spot me instantly.

[TorpX]

I agree with magic; the school mission will not teach you anything worthwhile. It really doesn't matter whether you master it or not, it is so implausable and unrealistic, it is better to not even waste time with it.

...although it's not the actual tracking bit I have a problem with at the moment - it's more getting into position to fire without a convoy/ship going nuts and circling all over the place and DD's depth charging the beejesus out of me.


Tracking/plotting and getting into position go hand in hand. If you develop skill plotting and tracking, you will be able to get into the best possible position, undetected. I think you would be better off to practice agianst single merchants some more, before trying to attack escorted convoys. It is only to be expected that attacking a convoy would be harder than attacking a single ship.

So far apart from once yesterday (where I was given up by a dodgy torpedo) it seems that even if I creep into position under the thermal layer as soon as I come up to periscope depth convoys spot me instantly.

It sounds like they are hearing you before you near the surface. You really shouldn't have to use the thermal layer before you make an attack. The first hint to the enemy, that a submarine is in the area, should be your torpedoes exploding against their hulls. Again, this probably isn't possible in the school attack mission.

[Raven Morpheus]

Well I don't seem to need any practice at tracking and intercepting single ships.

Just been doing a war patrol, the one where you have to go patrol the Sea of Japan (think it's the 1944 one), and I decided to go up through the Tsugaru Strait and then down to the marker, and on the way to the Tsugaru Strait I intercepted two merchants and sunk them, although they were just little fishing boats so I used the deck gun.

Going through the Tsugaru Strait I kept the boat at a depth of 160ft-200ft and at ahead 1/3 to avoid the patrolling warships and that seemed to work OK, although I had to surface for a while during nights to recharge the batteries.

Just now however I tracked and intercepted a Large Modern Tanker (10023 tons, draft 28ft) and sunk it about 90 miles NW off the coast of Mikuni.

Got a really great hit as well because I aimed my 1st fish at the superstructure at a depth of 20ft and hit the ship at what looked like dead centre and it split the ship in two. I had already fired a 2nd fish aimed at the rear where the stack is and at 20ft depth and to add insult to injury that hit also.

That ship was not having a good day... :arrgh!:

Really need to find a convoy though because it's them I'm having a problem with (and I don't usually have problems in SH5 convoy hunting), I keep getting radio reports of convoys but they're all well out of my AoO.



EDIT - Aha! Found one!!

Finally got a radio contact for a convoy in my AoO. One coming up from the Korea Strait. Managed to track it and it was a convoy of 6 ships, a mix of what looked like Old Aft Engine and Modern Large Tanker, but they had a 4 DD escort (1 either side and 1 front and back).

Got within striking distance, came up to periscope depth with no problems whatsoever. I sat there waiting for a good length of time and wasn't spotted, but it was at night (about 03:30) so I guess that's to be expected.

Had to come up to 48ft though due to waves constantly blocking my view.


Took down 1 Modern Large Tanker with my 1st fish, had fired a 2nd at it which wasn't needed but that hit also. Then on my next 2 fish I missed the intended target completely because he slowed up/started zig zagging and both of those fish hit the already sunk tanker instead...

Guess I need to practice what to do in that situation.

So as I needed to reload I dived to 160ft and plotted a course parallel to the convoy to keep with them and re-intercept them. This worked fine.

Came up for the 2nd time but this time they were obviously aware something was up and I got spotted. Managed to get 4 fish off, although I wasn't really concentrating on where I was firing as the scope was full of a DD that was coming straight towards me!!

Missed the DD (probably because I hadn't set the torpedo depth shallow enough, not that I had the time to) and 1 of the fish must have hit one of the Old Aft Engine ships because I could see one had it's front half submerged - but unfortunately for me it was still going somehow and hadn't at the time of exiting the game been registered as a kill!!!

Gave up after that and decided to leg it because the convoy was all broken up and the DD's were on my ass and the merchant ships themselves were shooting at me also.

Hopefully if I go back to the save and leave the area and leave the game a while I'll get that 2nd kill awarded after a while - it'll be really annoying if that ship manages to limp to wherever the convoy was headed.


Thanks for the tips guys it's been much appreciated and I seem to have gotten the hang of it now, I think I was just being too impatient the other day and/or just unlucky.


Just need to practice what to do when I've taken 1 ship out and the others start slowing/zig zagging now so I can take down more than one ship at a time...

[merc4ulfate]

I think about my settings way before I get to the surface. I go to the periscope and set everything while I am ascending. I normally get rid of my off set, set magnetic detonators, put the depth at its shallowest setting and make sure my scope is centered because 90% of my shots are only 10-20 degrees off zero when I fire.. If I need to change anything once on the surface, which isn't likely I do it then. Once I have fired the first salvo and they have hit or been seen I really do not worry to much about my noise or speed. I'll used ahead flank to get into better positions or to dive quicker. I generally try to steer into the convoy instead of away from it. Sometimes I get lucky and merchants run over escorts or escorts give way to merchants so if they are about to be hit the escort will reverse engines which give me more time to dive, reload and come back to the surface to fire again at the merchants in the rear of the convoy while the escorts try to locate me closer to the front of the convoy.

I have noticed a pattern where they tend to keep the tankers to the rear of the convoy with one or two escorts to the rear. They move so slowly that I can normally reload and come back up to strike them after my initial run at the front of the convoy.

[Raven Morpheus]

I thought the idea in the offset is to account for their speed. If you're shooting at zero degrees how do you account for the speed the target is moving at?


Anyway I finished the 1st mission in the campaign this afternoon, the same mission that prompted me to post this topic. I found 1 more convoy (making it a total of 3 in my AoO just south of Honshu, with loads well out of range), same thing happened as in the War Patrol, I sunk 1 ship and eventually all hell broke loose.

No biggie though. I retreated and lived to fight another day.

Managed to sink another 2 lone tankers to get the 10k tons objective.

Don't think my ammo to kill ratio is particularly good though - I used all of my torpedoes bar 2 in the rear and some deck gun rounds to take down just 3 targets! :haha:

For one target I somehow missed with 1 torpedo and barely scraped the screws with another, although it apparently managed to set the rear of the ship on fire, but the ship still carried on and I had to follow it and take it down with the deck gun myself because the crew refused to do it due to high seas...

I might have saved the deck gun ammo if I could work out how you do shots from the rear tubes at a target behind you - the target I tried it on (in this case the same target I just mentioned, which took 1 fish that barely scraped it, 1 missed forward facing fish, 2 missed rearward facing fish and deck gun rounds to finish it off!!) was coming from my right, so I was on it's port, I pointed the periscope to 200 degrees (based on my reasoning that if it was a shot from the front tubes I'd set the scope to 20 degrees) and I set the AOB to 70 port...

...I fired the torpedoes and they headed for an imaginary target in front of me!! :hmm2::hmmm::hmph::doh::confused:

[TorpX]

I thought the idea in the offset is to account for their speed. If you're shooting at zero degrees how do you account for the speed the target is moving at?


The TDC calculates the gyro angle required to hit the target (when you enter the correct speed, range, Aob and bearing). The offset dial is for spreading your torpedoes. Usually, more than one was launched at each target, and a spread was calculated to increase the chance of a hit, as well as to do widespread damage to target.

...I fired the torpedoes and they headed for an imaginary target in front of me!!

I'm guessing that you are using the DOK, or other method, instead of the standard TDC? If you use the TDC, and imput good estimates of the speed, range, Aob, and bearing, you can hit the target with aft tubes just as easily as with forward tubes. You don't have to change your operation of the TDC; it handles the calculations.

The position keeper updates the location of the target, based on your inputs (that is why you input the Aob, to tell the machine which way the target is going). The angle solver uses the generated info from the position keeper and the torpedo data, to compute the gyro angle. The location of the torpedo tubes (fwd or aft), is one the elements the TDC uses for this.