View Full Version : THE CONFLICT THREAD
Guys, uless you know exactly what you are doing...
...BEWARE OF CONFLICTING MODS; DON'T LET THEM TO OVERWRITE EACH OTHER'S FILES!!!
Is that clear enough? I couldn't find a bigger font :D
Targor Avelany
10-24-13, 10:44 AM
You could get a poster made with a huge font and posted as a picture :hmmm::haha::har:
And now I'm going to be bumping this thread :yep:
You could get a poster made with a huge font and posted as a picture :hmmm::haha::har:
I wish we could make an holography with the modding basics and make it to be projected just in front of the average mod soupper every time he runs JSGME :O:
volodya61
10-24-13, 11:26 AM
..Is that clear enough? I couldn't find a bigger font :D
Do you think it'll really help to solve all the CTDs issues?
Do you think it'll really help to solve all the CTDs issues?
Not all, but a significant part of them, and if you wanted to contribute to the cause, you should undersign my statement instead of nitpicking :03:
Trevally.
10-24-13, 11:55 AM
This is a 5 star thread:know:
You should also link your guide things to consider when adding mods
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2119977&postcount=26
volodya61
10-24-13, 12:07 PM
Not all, but a significant part of them, and if you wanted to contribute to the cause, you should undersign my statement instead of nitpicking :03:
I'm not nitpicking.. where should I sign it? :03:
PS: frankly, I almost lost interest in the game.. I see no point in continuing to waste so much my time on it until the issue of the game engine crashes for unknown reasons will be resolved..
vdr1981
10-24-13, 12:09 PM
Alleluia! :D
Trevally.
10-24-13, 12:11 PM
I'm not nitpicking.. where should I sign it? :03:
PS: frankly, I almost lost interest in the game.. I see no point in continuing to waste so much my time on it until the issue of the game engine crashes for unknown reasons will be resolved..
the reason is not unknown
the stock game does not CTD
SnipersHunter
10-24-13, 12:22 PM
Guys, uless you know exactly what you are doing...
...BEWARE OF CONFLICTING MODS; DON'T LET THEM TO OVERWRITE EACH OTHER'S FILES!!!
Is that clear enough? I couldn't find a bigger font :D
The wise word of yoda :subsim:
PS: frankly, I almost lost interest in the game...
I had noticed it already :-?
This is a 5 star thread:know:
You should also link your guide things to consider when adding mods
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2119977&postcount=26
What do you think about a SH5 FAQ/troubleshooting thread? :hmmm:
there is a bunch of frequent questions, common mistakes, and little problems which can be easily answered without need of going through a whole community debugging session each time :know:
Alleluia! :D
The wise word of yoda :subsim:
In the name of the FORCE (may It have mercy of us) purge your mod list!
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a whole bunch of mods to pass a SH5 validator test!!! :D
volodya61
10-24-13, 12:29 PM
the reason is not unknown
the stock game does not CTD
not unknown? okay, tell me why I get a CTD on campaign start if I enable TDW AI Sub Crew after huge, stable mod-list.. this mod doesn't conflict with any mod..
Trevally.
10-24-13, 12:32 PM
not unknown? okay, tell me why I get a CTD on campaign start if I enable TDW AI Sub Crew after huge, stable mod-list.. this mod doesn't conflict with any mod..
the stock game does not ctd
you say you have a stable mod list
you add one more mod and your list is now not stable
not unknown? okay, tell me why I get a CTD on campaign start if I enable TDW AI Sub Crew after huge, stable mod-list.. this mod doesn't conflict with any mod..
Volodya,
I think I have already answered your question: badly assorted mods and essential files overwriting each others explain a substantial part of the problems which daily are reported on this forum. A big part, but not all of them, indeed.
Moreover, you seem to ignore the fact that a mod can break another mod without actually overwriting its files.
Not saying that it is your case, but it can happen :yep:
Targor Avelany
10-24-13, 12:52 PM
I think that is the kind of the CTD volodya was talking about: the CTDs caused by mods that are not visually (lets say in JSGME) affect each other, but somehow do create major problems for each other, causing all kinds of problems.
I don't play at the moment for two reasons: one is the time, second: I don't want to sit and figure out everything the way I like and not break things. I would use just sober's list, but my computer will die; plus, I love using voice recognition, and it hasn't been updated for a very while.
...mods that are not visually (lets say in JSGME) affect each other, but somehow do create major problems for each other...
There is at least one way that this can happen:
let's say that some settings of the mod A rely on a group of settings in another file, be them stock settings or settings from a second mod (B) that the said mod A is based on. The author of A, assumes that the essential settings are already in game, and he doesn't include in his package the files containing them.
A third mod, let's call it C, might remove/change the aforementioned settings. Note that, though conflicting with B, C might be designed to work well with the latter. Nonetheless it doesn't take into account A. result: despite the fact that it is not overwriting any of its files, C will break A :know:
There are also cases where a mod can mask an incompatibility between two other mods. A practical example: in sobers' mega mod, OHII follows FXU. Their relative order didn't matter before FXU 0.0.22, because their conflicting files were identical, but now some new settings which were added to FXU are not present in OH. This is not a big problem anyway, because RSD, which is enabled on top of them, ovewrites the two mods, restoring the missing settings. But try removing RSD without switching OH's and FXU's relative orders, and you will transform a stable mod list into a buggy one. :yep:
Targor Avelany
10-24-13, 01:31 PM
There is at least one way that this can happen:
let's say that some settings of the mod A rely on a group of settings in another file, be them stock settings or settings from a second mod (B) that the said mod A is based on. The author of A, assumes that the essential settings are already in game, and he doesn't include the files containing them in his package
A third mod, let's call it C, might remove/change the aforementioned settings. Note that, though conflicting with B, C might be designed to work well with the latter. Nonetheless it doesn't take into account A. result: despite the fact that it is not overwriting any of its files, C will break A :know:
There are also cases where a mod can mask an incompatibility between two other mods. A practical example: in sobers' mega mod, OHII follows FXU. Their relative order didn't matter before FXU 0.0.22, because their conflicting files were identical, but now some new settings which were added to FXU are not present in OH. This is not a big problem anyway, because RSD, which is enabled on top of them, ovewrites the two mods, restoring the missing settings. But try removing RSD without switching OH's and FXU's relative orders, and you will transform a stable mod list into a buggy one. :yep:
Oh, believe me, I understand the principle :) It doesn't make it any less tiring to figure it out because realistically the only way to do it is to do it by trial and error.
volodya61
10-24-13, 04:00 PM
There is at least one way that this can happen:
let's say that some settings of the mod A rely on a group of settings in another file, be them stock settings or settings from a second mod (B) that the said mod A is based on. The author of A, assumes that the essential settings are already in game, and he doesn't include in his package the files containing them.
A third mod, let's call it C, might remove/change the aforementioned settings. Note that, though conflicting with B, C might be designed to work well with the latter. Nonetheless it doesn't take into account A. result: despite the fact that it is not overwriting any of its files, C will break A :know:
There are also cases where a mod can mask an incompatibility between two other mods. A practical example: in sobers' mega mod, OHII follows FXU. Their relative order didn't matter before FXU 0.0.22, because their conflicting files were identical, but now some new settings which were added to FXU are not present in OH. This is not a big problem anyway, because RSD, which is enabled on top of them, ovewrites the two mods, restoring the missing settings. But try removing RSD without switching OH's and FXU's relative orders, and you will transform a stable mod list into a buggy one. :yep:
Very good explanation.. but.. two examples - Sub Flags and AI Sub Crew.. how these mods may corrupt a mod-list.. settings of these two mods don't overlap with settings of any other mods.. nowhere..
They both mess with the models and what happens in/to them.
Madox58
10-24-13, 05:43 PM
Very good explanation.. but.. two examples - Sub Flags and AI Sub Crew.. how these mods may corrupt a mod-list.. settings of these two mods don't overlap with settings of any other mods.. nowhere..
They could have ID's that conflict? That has been a bain on modding from SH3 up to and includeing SH5.
ID conflicts have also been shown to be wildly variable! It may take special conditions to cause a crash.
Such as being near Units that have ID clashes.
lodebeard
10-24-13, 11:34 PM
Submarines are stupid and modding is immoral and you guys are all totally stuck up and I wish I had never joined this place :down:
lodebeard
10-24-13, 11:35 PM
Wait... I think I may have posted in the wrong CONFLICT THREAD...
whoops :oops:
vdr1981
10-25-13, 03:21 AM
Submarines are stupid and modding is immoral and you guys are all totally stuck up and I wish I had never joined this place :down:
LoL, It's not that kind of "conflict"...:har:
Trevally.
10-25-13, 03:29 AM
Wait... I think I may have posted in the wrong CONFLICT THREAD...
whoops :oops:
:haha::har::rotfl2:
Oh, believe me, I understand the principle :) It doesn't make it any less tiring to figure it out because realistically the only way to do it is to do it by trial and error.
Well, to some extent one can evaluate the compatibility of two mods from the features they affect and by having a quick look into their respective files, but I agree that the more mods are enabled, the more are their interactions, and the harder is tracking down every potential source of problems.
Very good explanation.. but.. two examples - Sub Flags and AI Sub Crew.. how these mods may corrupt a mod-list.. settings of these two mods don't overlap with settings of any other mods.. nowhere..
Sub flags, in several ways: see this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2133234&postcount=102) by me for an example. Dunno about AI sub crew though: never looked into this mod.
They could have ID's that conflict? That has been a bain on modding from SH3 up to and includeing SH5.
ID conflicts have also been shown to be wildly variable! It may take special conditions to cause a crash.
Such as being near Units that have ID clashes.
Well said, this could explain some herratic and mysterious crashes. :up:
Nonetheless, we must also consider that a 16-digit hex number can assume values from 0 to 18,446,744,073,709,552,000 lol. Unless we consider human error as a factor, the evenience of randomly duplicated Id's is extremely unlikely :hmmm:
Submarines are stupid and modding is immoral and you guys are all totally stuck up and I wish I had never joined this place :down:
Wait... I think I may have posted in the wrong CONFLICT THREAD...
whoops :oops:
May the Force forgive them for they know not what they do... :smug: :O:
volodya61
10-25-13, 08:39 AM
Sub flags, in several ways: see this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2133234&postcount=102) by me for an example. Dunno about AI sub crew though: never looked into this mod.
This example is not correct because I got CTDs on campaign start with each of these two mods long ago.. 16-18 months ago.. and at that time RSD creation is not even supposed to..
This example is not correct because I got CTDs on campaign start with each of these two mods long ago.. 16-18 months ago.. and at that time RSD creation is not even supposed to..
I think CTD on campaign start is a special case .. as I got that too .. as did mikemike47 at the time .. and for as far as I know, neither of us have them anymore .. while we did NOT change our modlist or order. I think this might be traced back to the savefolder, but diagnosing it is kinda hard if I cant relyably reproduce it :/
Madox58
10-25-13, 03:53 PM
I heard you the first time.
Delete post is an option you know.
:D
This example is not correct because I got CTDs on campaign start with each of these two mods long ago.. 16-18 months ago.. and at that time RSD creation is not even supposed to..
Hi Volodya! Can confirm that Sub Flags and AI Sub Crew, and + SubExaust mod caused CTD for me also long time ago. Tried dozens of times to put them in various positions in my mod list, but the result was the same:nope: So just to stop using those mods was the best solution:yep:
Madox58
10-27-13, 03:33 PM
Nonetheless, we must also consider that a 16-digit hex number can assume values from 0 to 18,446,744,073,709,552,000 lol. Unless we consider human error as a factor, the evenience of randomly duplicated Id's is extremely unlikely :hmmm:
Saw that same arguement in SH3 long ago. Results were still many ID conficts even after the basic 'cloneing' issues were solved.
Throw in animations and how those use ID's, then add any ID corrections by the Game engine itself by enternal cloneing? The numbers get smaller real quick.
volodya61
10-27-13, 03:53 PM
Hi Vlad :salute:
Hi Volodya! Can confirm that Sub Flags and AI Sub Crew, and + SubExaust mod caused CTD for me also long time ago. Tried dozens of times to put them in various positions in my mod list, but the result was the same:nope: So just to stop using those mods was the best solution:yep:
That's why I stopped my work on my new mod-pack/build.. in the latest version (December, 2012) all these mods were present.. but now I can't use them together with the new mods and new versions of old mods.. as soon as I add any of the new mods to my pack/list I get constant CTDs on the campaign start loading..
Saw that same arguement in SH3 long ago. Results were still many ID conficts even after the basic 'cloneing' issues were solved.
Throw in animations and how those use ID's, then add any ID corrections by the Game engine itself by enternal cloneing? The numbers get smaller real quick.
Yes, but how many ID's can already be in use... one billion maybe? This would still be about 18.5 billion times lesser than the total number of possible ID's :hmmm:
Madox58
10-29-13, 03:05 PM
Yes, but how many ID's can already be in use... one billion maybe? This would still be about 18.5 billion times lesser than the total number of possible ID's :hmmm:
The total number depends on how many ID's the GR2 files are useing. The dats in stock SH5 are useing 9265. :D
Add in any dats or edited GR2 ID's added by mods? The number can get pretty large.
A somewhat Stock GWX 3 has 122563 and those numbers don't count what was unknown ID's when the program was written.
Now the Original files in all versions from 3 up, don't use random numbers.
There is code to create ID numbers from the names in the files.
That's what you see in GoblinEditor for SH5 happening on GR2 files.
The problem with randomly creating ID's is you have no way to see if that number was used in other dats or GR2 files so it is possible (and has happened) that ID's can be duplicated at the worst possible moment!
The total number depends on how many ID's the GR2 files are useing. The dats in stock SH5 are useing 9265. :D
:doh:
how did you count them?
A somewhat Stock GWX 3 has 122563 and those numbers don't count what was unknown ID's when the program was written.
unknown Id's? What's that? :huh:
...it is possible (and has happened) that ID's can be duplicated at the worst possible moment!
Duplicated Id's are a constant source of anxiety whe I plan to add a new object or controller in game. Diagnosing hem would be a real nightmare :-?
Madox58
10-29-13, 03:42 PM
I have a program the reads all dats, sims, zon, etc., and finds all ID,s.
It then compares to see all confilicting ID's in known files in the Whole Game.
(It was written by ref for the GWX Team)
Unknown ID's at that time were ID's that we did not know were ID's. Such as some of the Mesh Animation stuff in SH3.
Since then I've discovered ID's in SH4's animations that do not follow the 64 byte rule we were use to.
:03:
Random number generation is a whole science in itself. Some very big Companies are still dumping lots of cash into the whole thing!
The problem faced in SH Games is makeing sure you don't pop an already used number! And that has happened many times.
I posted before that Sergbuto seems to have figured out how the SH Engine gets the ID's from a name.
Maybe I should ask one of the Dev's that signed the poster they sent me for more details?
I have a program the reads all dats, sims, zon, etc., and finds all ID,s.
It then compares to see all confilicting ID's in known files in the Whole Game.
(It was written by ref for the GWX Team)
Useful tool. My question was actually pleonastic: I was almost sure you had deviced one of your tricks for keeping track of all those ID's :)
Unknown ID's at that time were ID's that we did not know were ID's. Such as some of the Mesh Animation stuff in SH3.
Since then I've discovered ID's in SH4's animations that do not follow the 64 byte rule we were use to.
:03:
I see
Random number generation is a whole science in itself. Some very big Companies are still dumping lots of cash into the whole thing!
The problem faced in SH Games is makeing sure you don't pop an already used number! And that has happened many times.
I posted before that Sergbuto seems to have figured out how the SH Engine gets the ID's from a name.
Maybe I should ask one of the Dev's that signed the poster they sent me for more details?
:up:
Since Goblin Editor is able to generate GR2 Id's, if I had the skills I would try digging for the algorythm into its code rather than in game :hmmm:
Madox58
10-29-13, 04:15 PM
I asked the Dev that sent me the poster how they get an ID from a name.
IF he can provide that info?
We can write a whole new scanner program without the pain.
:D
I asked the Dev that sent me the poster how they get an ID from a name.
IF he can provide that info?
We can write a whole new scanner program without the pain.
:D
Fingers crossed. While we wait for answers, you could show us a picture of the poster :)
Madox58
10-29-13, 05:03 PM
This link will allow you to zoom in real good!
:D
http://s108.photobucket.com/user/privateer_2006/media/SH4/100_0833.jpg.html
This link will allow you to zoom in real good!
:D
http://s108.photobucket.com/user/privateer_2006/media/SH4/100_0833.jpg.html
wow... beautiful! :sunny:
Madox58
10-29-13, 06:34 PM
Sent you an E-Mail with IMPORTANT info!
:rock:
Mikemike47
10-29-13, 09:57 PM
I have a program the reads all dats, sims, zon, etc., and finds all ID,s.
It then compares to see all confilicting ID's in known files in the Whole Game.
(It was written by ref for the GWX Team)
I posted before that Sergbuto seems to have figured out how the SH Engine gets the ID's from a name.
Maybe I should ask one of the Dev's that signed the poster they sent me for more details?
Sweet. Good to hear about another tool for the game.
I am working on Voices Reloaded (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205078) which have IDs in the data\cfg folder for dialogs.cfg. I haven't even attempted to figure out what IDs do here.
Madox58
11-02-13, 04:41 PM
Given good contacts with the Devs I am told several things that adjust what I believed.
All ID's for SH3/4 and maybe SH5 non-GR2 files are random generations.
They do have a way to insure that ID's are not repeated and it seems anything in the same file has a close ID with only a few bytes changed.
So what Sergbuto posted is close to being the actual case but not the whole story.
The GR2's seem to use a hash function which I have not figured out but have some clue to thanks again to a Dev.
I also will no longer hide nor protect any companies interests in any Game or software.
Shoud that bother you? Look into the companies that payed me to do such things.
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