Government Shutdown

[Armistead]

Will it happen?

About 13 hours left..........


http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/23/politics/government-shutdown-daily-life/index.html

[Herr-Berbunch]

The link makes all the difference. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

They shut for snow days. Meh, go ahead. Shut'er down. :salute:

[Betonov]

Maybe it will be like it is with us, every time our government takes a vacation, the economy recovers


Bloody hell, my cousin will be traveling to Montana on wendsday, any thoughts on it from the natives ???

[Jimbuna]

They shut for snow days. Meh, go ahead. Shut'er down. :salute:

Precisely http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img105/4302/snoregb2.gif

[Ducimus]

I think a shutdown is way overrated. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think congress gets paid, which i would conjecture is the biggest reason they make such a big deal out of it, aside from exploiting an opportunity to paint the opposing side into a corner.

EDIT:
After a bit of reading, it appears both congress and the white house will continue to draw checks. What a bummer. None of those bums should be getting paid IMO.

[Armistead]

Many of the national parks get very busy during the fall season with leaves turning. I know several near here would be closed. It also cost about 1 billion just to shut govt. down. I don't really care, they waste billions like pennies.

Sad, congress gets paid, soldiers would get IOU's to redeem later.

[Ducimus]

Many of the national parks get very busy during the fall season with leaves turning. I know several near here would be closed. It also cost about 1 billion just to shut govt. down. I don't really care, they waste billions like pennies.

Sad, congress gets paid, soldiers would get IOU's to redeem later.

You got me thinking something (again) that many of us probably have wondered at one point or another: Why the hell can't the government conduct itself like everybody else - to live within it's means instead of charging everything on credit?

It's like a giant snowball rolling downhill. It just gets bigger, and bigger. This can't go on forever.

[mapuc]

No one wrote:

"As long they don't close Subsim and the Internet I don't care"

[Wolferz]

They only do this to drive stock prices down so they can buy short and sell long.
It's all about the Benjamins and how they can tuck obscene amounts of them in their pockets by doing nothing.

Nipple twists for the lot of them!

[Jimbuna]

No one wrote:

"As long they don't close Subsim and the Internet I don't care"

You just did :sunny:

[AVGWarhawk]

The government shut down twice before. We are still standing. Shut it down! :yeah:

[AVGWarhawk]

They only do this to drive stock prices down so they can buy short and sell long.
It's all about the Benjamins and how they can tuck obscene amounts of them in their pockets by doing nothing.

Nipple twists for the lot of them!

All take all three Alex for $100k. :yeah:

[Oberon]

Don't forget to save your work before shutting down. :yep:

http://dollarvigilante.com/storage/2011/2011-12-december/It%20Is%20Now%20Safe%20to%20Turn%20Off%20Your%20Go vernment.jpg

[mapuc]

You just did :sunny:

I was thinking on our American friends

Markus

[mapuc]

Now to some serious discussion

If USA goes bankruptcy it will hit the International economy very hard. There's no one that can say what's going to happen, except it will be some kind of cascade of effect.

Markus

[Ducimus]

Give it a few weeks. Then they'll debate the budget ceiling again. Judging by current events, we should have a regular 3 ring circus in mid October. Wholesome family entertainment for all.

[AVGWarhawk]

Give it a few weeks. Then they'll debate the budget ceiling again. Judging by current events, we should have a regular 3 ring circus in mid October. Wholesome family entertainment for all.

Oh goodie!

[mapuc]

In the headlines in yesterdays news it said

Panic before closing time

Markus

[Wolferz]

Don't forget to save your work before shutting down. :yep:



Hey!!! Who killed the power????!!!!

[Stealhead]

If you are an American paying you taxes like me then the shut down will mean more taxes as it costs money shut the government down like this.You guys complain about the spending then then you joke about a shutdown that will cost in the you even more money.:hmm2:

@Armistead all national parks will be closed to the public during the shut down.Also in the past shutdowns there was money to pay back the military who do not stop going to work they just stop getting paid during a shut down this time there is no guarantee that they will be able to repay the armed forces for doing their duties while also having families to feed and bills to pay but no money for ? amount of time.That will do wonders for morale and will mean that many members will decide not to reenlist next time their term comes up.Now it would be a good thing for politicians not to want to return to the job but people skilled in many military jobs are hard to find and you do not want to push those people away.

[Ducimus]

Oh goodie!

You know, I've had this bad feeling for a couple years now, that something really bad is going to happen on a national level. I have no way to substantiate that feeling, I don't know what that "something" is, I'm not even going to say that this feeling is correct, and will even dismiss it as just paranoia because I can give no rational argument for it because it's just a bad feeling. However, I do find myself wishing that "it", whatever "it" is, would just happen already so we can get it over with.

If you are an American paying you taxes like me then the shut down will mean more taxes as it costs money shut the government down like this.You guys complain about the spending then then you joke about a shutdown that will cost in the you even more money.:hmm2:

If our country wasn't so polarized, our government wasn't so dysfunctional, and we weren't already so far in the hole, I would probably care if it shut down, as it is, i find myself lacking any concern. We are so far in debt already, the costs of a shutdown is probably but a drop in the bucket.

Aside from that, I don't think the people running our government are capable of any real solutions. They'll just kick the can down the road, same as always, and the deficit will continue to grow.

[AVGWarhawk]

The military will be paid. Shut it down. Let the world see what a dysfunctional gov't that is running the US. Let this be their legacy. All of them.

[Armistead]

Give it a few weeks. Then they'll debate the budget ceiling again. Judging by current events, we should have a regular 3 ring circus in mid October. Wholesome family entertainment for all.

Yep, they can print more non value money, increase the debt limit again and the dollar is devalued further.

They could all drop dead and rot in hell, the entire lot of them.

[Stealhead]

If our country wasn't so polarized, our government wasn't so dysfunctional, and we weren't already so far in the hole, I would probably care if it shut down. But seriously, we are so far in debt already, the costs of a shutdown is probably but a drop in the bucket.



See that makes no sense to me even if you see that the government is screwed up by law you must pay the taxes it levies upon you so this is going to cost you and me and everyone more money.So apathy is not an option when money comes from your pocket unless you are a nihilist which I am just about 100% certain you are not.

I see this as divide and conquer you say the people are so polarized with this I highly disagree the ones being lead by the pied pipers are but they are actually the minority.If you really looked you would see that most people even of different stripes who may not agree on all things want to work together it can be done.The problem is that you have pundits smashing size 12 shoes like Nikita Khrushchev and they get all the attention.

The Main attraction distraction is what I call it.All the while the ones that benefit from all of this laugh all the way to the bank.

[mapuc]

Does anyone of us really know what the effect would be?

Markus

[Bubblehead1980]

Republicans offered a reasonable comprosmise, drop the medical equipment tax(which is a big part of the problem in the ACA) and the individual mandate(which is pretty anti american in spirit, federal government compelling citizens to purchase insurance or face a "tax") Democrats said NO to both.That right there says they are( as we know) the bane of liberty.They just refuse to drop a tax and an unfair mandate(while delaying the business mandate!) so let it shut down, who cares.

[mookiemookie]

Sure, shut it down and ruin the nation's credit and economy. Force untold numbers of people to lose their jobs and homes. All so you can prove an ideological political point.

I guess it's too much to ask motherhumpers to stop humping their mothers for the sake of the nation.

[AVGWarhawk]

Does anyone of us really know what the effect would be?

Markus

Markus,

Two weeks ago my place of employment called our healthcare insurance company. The simple question was asked. "What will our new premiums be under the new ACA?" The answer was simpler yet. "We don't know.", was the reply. As I noted above, many elderly are getting letters advising they are no long insured. These letters are coming from AETNA and a few other insurance companies. This is just the tip of the iceberg in my opinion.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sure, shut it down and ruin the nation's credit and economy. Force untold numbers of people to lose their jobs and homes. All so you can prove an ideological political point.

I guess it's too much to ask motherhumpers to stop humping their mothers for the sake of the nation.

The govt has shut down before. Nothing happened.

[Ducimus]

See that makes no sense to me even if you see that the government is screwed up by law you must pay the taxes it levies upon you so this is going to cost you and me and everyone more money.

True, it will cost us more money. But ahh, we're kinda hosed as it is already. Aren't we just splitting hairs at this point?
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70184000/gif/_70184839_us_debt_2013_624.gif


So apathy is not an option when money comes from your pocket unless you are a nihilist which I am just about 100% certain you are not.

Well what are we going to do? What are your's and mines options? The clowns in DC are running the show, we're just along for the ride if we like where their going or not. I'd love to throw the bums out - ALL of them, but that's not going to happen.


I see this as divide and conquer you say the people are so polarized with this I highly disagree the ones being lead by the pied pipers are but they are actually the minority.If you really looked you would see that most people even of different stripes who may not agree on all things want to work together it can be done.The problem is that you have pundits smashing size 12 shoes like Nikita Khrushchev and they get all the attention.

One can only hope. However, if the pulse of that polarization is what I've seen people post in comments sections all around the internet, I'm not exactly enthused about the level of good will, cooperation and compromise that ive been seeing.


The Main attraction distraction is what I call it.All the while the ones that benefit from all of this laugh all the way to the bank.

Conspiracy! :haha:

Republicans offered a reasonable comprosmise,
.....Democrats said NO to both.
.

Reasonable depends on which side of the fence you reside on. I watched BO's press secretary say nearly the same thing, only opposite, supporting BO and Democrat's point of view. Speaking of which the reason why they said no, is because they are in a position of strength. They are not going to give one inch when they have the metaphorical high ground. Right now, it's their way or the highway.

[Oberon]

It's business as usual, Republicans say Black, Democrats say White and everything goes to the dogs around them.

I have to ask, being a Brit, but why in the heck is the US budget capable of being derailed by the Congress and Senate? Here in the UK it's set by the Treasury and while the opposition can (and usually does) decry it and complain about it, they can't stop it, not until they get into power.
Now, with something as important as the nations economic future, I can understand why the whole political spectrum would want to have its input, but it's got a major achilles heal that we're seeing now, that if a political party puts its own interests ahead of that of the nations, then the whole thing falls apart, and given how the US economy is...well...in an interesting location, and coming up for the ceiling adjustment, well...now is really not the time for playing chicken. :hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

Reasonable depends on which side of the fence you reside on. I watched BO's press secretary say nearly the same thing, only opposite, supporting BO and Democrat's point of view. Speaking of which the reason why they said no, is because they are in a position of strength. They are not going to give one inch when they have the metaphorical high ground. Right now, it's their way or the highway.[/QUOTE]


I think anyone that is being fair could agree that dropping a tax is easy to see as part of the rising costs being passed on to consumers and the mandate that even for those who do not know the constitutional side of the argument, knows that the federal government forcing citizens to purchase a product is wrong and against the very fabric of this country.Reasonable compromise was offered, drop the bad parts of this law, or delay them, they delayed the business mandate, why not the individual? The individual is far more offensive and oppressive than the business mandate.

You know it is funny some are saying Republicans are putting their politics above the nation, they are in fact fighting for the nation.Polls show people do not support this law, never really have, Republicans are fighting for the people, Democrats are fighting to save obozos legacy and their agenda.

[Bubblehead1980]

Sure, shut it down and ruin the nation's credit and economy. Force untold numbers of people to lose their jobs and homes. All so you can prove an ideological political point.

I guess it's too much to ask motherhumpers to stop humping their mothers for the sake of the nation.

Not to prove an ideological point, but to stop a monstrosity from getting further entrenched.Want to talk about hardship? This law is and will cause even more.

[mapuc]

I think most countries will turn to Euro if USA goes bankruptcy.

Not that Euro is better than the American dollar. However how Worthy will the dollar be if USA goes bankruptcy?

Markus

[Oberon]

I think most countries will turn to Euro if USA goes bankruptcy.

Not that Euro is better than the American dollar. However how Worthy will the dollar be if USA goes bankruptcy?

Markus

Doubt they'd go Euro, Gold maybe, or Yuan, but considering if the US goes bankrupt then China will swiftly follow and the whole house of cards comes crashing down. Ruble is possible, or some sort of Arabian dollar.

But the US won't default, a last minute deal will likely avoid disaster, it's just a case of who blinks first really.

[Jimbuna]

I think most countries will turn to Euro if USA goes bankruptcy.

Not that Euro is better than the American dollar. However how Worthy will the dollar be if USA goes bankruptcy?

Markus

About as worthless as the Euro currently is.

[Stealhead]

Conspiracy! :haha:



Not really I was talking about the pundit talking heads someone pays them and well to do what they do.So they laugh all the way to the bank.A do the huge corporations that take advantage of all the loopholes and cut workers hours despite the fact that most do not pay much of any taxes the corporations that is and Warren Buffet said that he is one of the wealthiest men in the US and the world for that matter I am prety sure that he knows the many in and outs of how to generate wealth he just is honest is all.

And long term the system is screwed because when things go south the people paying the largest burden of the taxes (you and me) well there is not enough revenue coming in from our taxes alone.So in the long run the 1% that has all the wealth they actually would make more money if things where more fairly split instead of controlling a huge amount and having a smaller amount of wealth they could have less assets but those assets would generate greater wealth and the underlings would have more capital as well.But humans are greedy and greed means the easiest route to wealth.

Not a conspiracy I am not saying that Jews are doing this to dominate the world or that 1 million old lizard men are doing this to please Klimzad that would be a conspiracy theory.Simply look at the income ratios over the last 40 years most everyone has had no increase while the top 1% have had a huge increase in income it is no conspiracy but obvious fact.The direct result of deregulation.

[Bilge_Rat]

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5243d5d3/turbine/la-na-tt-ted-cruz-20130925-001/600

I really, really, really hope the GOP nominate Cruz for president in 16.....:ping:

[Ducimus]

Not really.....

I was being sarcastic. I know what you meant, I just couldn't pass up a moment of sarcasm.

[Tchocky]

Massive confusion in this thread of a government shutdown with a failure to lift the debt ceiling.

They are very different things with very different results.

Government has shut down seventeen times. Debt ceiling has always been raised.

[Wolferz]

They (our elected leaders) must see themselves the way the banksters see themselves... "Too big to fail" But fail they will. The government will go down like a drogue stone when the rope finally breaks and all their bankster buddies will get sucked into the vortex with them when the tax revenues can no longer pay the interest on the debt. Jacking up the debt ceiling and propping it up with skinny little poles will not solve the problem... ever. But they continue to add more drainage of the treasury with new departments and agencies and more and more of the same old song and dance.

The saddest part is their arrogance in thinking that the debt will just magically disappear as long as they pay the interest on it. I wonder what the interest payment is on 17.5 trillion. If I ran my personal finances they way the government runs the public trust, I'd be broke for the next thousand years.
We lost way too many jobs and the tax revenues went with them.
I can't pay my debts with vapor money and neither can they.

[razark]

After a bit of reading, it appears both congress and the white house will continue to draw checks. What a bummer. None of those bums should be getting paid IMO.
Lucky them. The latest email I got said "Your company will probably let you use your vacation time if you are determined to be in a non-essential position."


As long as this doesn't last more than two and a half weeks, it's all good. Maybe. I really hope the kids don't get sick later this year. :/\\!!

[Oberon]

Massive confusion in this thread of a government shutdown with a failure to lift the debt ceiling.

They are very different things with very different results.

Government has shut down seventeen times. Debt ceiling has always been raised.

The two have a link though in that Obama or the Republicans have chosen this week to have their stand-off rather than defer it to next week. I suspect, given that it's the Democrats that have rejected the Republican backed bill that it's Obama who has decided to have the showdown this week, since the Republicans wanted to push the funding for 'Obamacare' into next week, which would then be the same time that the debt ceiling vote comes through and they would be able to torpedo the 'Obamacare' package by using the debt ceiling as a threat to try to force Obama to back down. By fighting his battle this week, Obama then has crucial time to take what measures he needs to take to undercut the Republicans so that the debt ceiling raise goes ahead with little to no fuss.
That's mine and a few other peoples take on it anyway.

razark, good luck, it's easy to forget the people in the middle have faces too.

[Armistead]

They (our elected leaders) must see themselves the way the banksters see themselves... "Too big to fail" But fail they will. The government will go down like a drogue stone when the rope finally breaks and all their bankster buddies will get sucked into the vortex with them when the tax revenues can no longer pay the interest on the debt. Jacking up the debt ceiling and propping it up with skinny little poles will not solve the problem... ever. But they continue to add more drainage of the treasury with new departments and agencies and more and more of the same old song and dance.

The saddest part is their arrogance in thinking that the debt will just magically disappear as long as they pay the interest on it. I wonder what the interest payment is on 17.5 trillion. If I ran my personal finances they way the government runs the public trust, I'd be broke for the next thousand years.
We lost way too many jobs and the tax revenues went with them.
I can't pay my debts with vapor money and neither can they.

They don't care, they'll still get paid, they'll still get benefits for life and can work for any global corporation. The people that will get hurt are the middle class and poor. Every study I've seen says in the next 20 years about 10% of people/corps will hold 80-90 of all real wealth.

If you ride around, things don't look that bad, people in nice houses, cars, etc, but the majority of them really own nothing, just mass loads of debt. I saw one report that 75% of Americans are one crisis away from utter poverty.

Every serious economist agrees a large crisis is coming, because we continue to kick the can down the road.

[Oberon]

Sheesh, I can see why so many people dislike Pelosi...she just doesn't shut up, does she? :dead:
Dems accusing Reps, Reps accusing Dems...it'd be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic.

http://blog.jokeroo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/cartoon-government-shutdown.jpg

[the_tyrant]

It took Hannibal’s greatest victory to force the Roman government to adopt a Fabian strategy. It would take a government shutdown for the US government to understand that they need to cut spending.
Sometimes the amputation is needed, and only an extreme situation would make it happen.

[Aktungbby]

Sheesh, I can see why so many people dislike Pelosi...she just doesn't shut up, does she? :dead:
Dems accusing Reps, Reps accusing Dems...it'd be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic.
Easy, I've had to sit in front of her office; The Thatcher of American politics in the predominantly Y chromosome soup of a dysfunctional Congress. Senator Feinstein is worse but at least was a mayor with some practical gravitas under her belt. To a historian (in theory) like myself the unseen worms' eye view is a wondrous thing... And then there's Barbara Lee, Dem. from across the bay... :yep:

[Oberon]

It took Hannibal’s greatest victory to force the Roman government to adopt a Fabian strategy. It would take a government shutdown for the US government to understand that they need to cut spending.
Sometimes the amputation is needed, and only an extreme situation would make it happen.

I hope that something is taken away from this mess, that both sides learn and understand that people want compromise not confrontation.
I suspect that we will learn the answer to this within a fortnight when the debt ceiling bill comes around, and see if people can resist the temptation to bring a Christmas list to the House/Senate and crash the damn thing.

I think that it is safe to say that the rest of the world is looking on at this with a lot of confusion and some consternation, I must admit that I am, and I think this article speaks for some of us from outside of America:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24342521

[Oberon]

Easy, I've had to sit in front of her office; The Thatcher of American politics in the predominantly Y chromosome soup of a dysfunctional Congress. Senator Feinstein is worse but at least was a mayor with some practical gravitas under her belt. To a historian (in theory) like myself the unseen worms' eye view is a wondrous thing... :yep:

Oh, she's a force of nature, no doubting that, but I think she needs to work on her aim and conservation of fire, rather than the liberal application of firepower in a sweeping arc.

[Oberon]

http://www.technixupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/shutdown-windows-7.jpg

[Aktungbby]

It took Hannibal’s greatest victory to force the Roman government to adopt a Fabian strategy. It would take a government shutdown for the US government to understand that they need to cut spending.
Sometimes the amputation is needed, and only an extreme situation would make it happen.
Scipio would argue otherwise:haha:

[Red October1984]

Ok...I'm on the White House Email List.

I just got this email...

If the United States government shuts down tonight and our economy takes a hit, it will be because House Republicans let it happen.

Right now, there's a bill sitting in the House that funds the government for a few more weeks. It doesn't demand the repeal or delay of the health care law, or deny women access to birth control, or include any other failed, partisan proposals. It funds the government. That's it. And if Republican leadership allowed a simple yes or no vote on this bill -- like the Senate has -- it would get enough support from members of both parties to pass.

Instead, the government that these Republicans were elected to fund will close down and that will hurt our economy. Americans across the country won't be allowed to show up for work. Paychecks could be delayed, meaning some folks will have to cut back on groceries or maybe even not pay a few bills. Businesses will have fewer customers. Veterans won't get services they rely on -- and it will put benefits for seniors at risk.

Even though they've already voted over 40 times to defund or delay the health care law, this group of Republicans in Congress is so obsessed with the idea of sabotaging Obamacare that they're willing to take the economy hostage to do it.

Take a look at how this shutdown will affect millions of Americans -- and then make sure you share it so other folks know, too.

President Obama has said time and time again that he's willing to work with folks on both sides of the aisle to grow our economy and even improve the health care law. But using the threat of government shutdown or defaulting on the bills our country owes is reckless and irresponsible.

In fact, shutting down the government won't stop Obamacare. The Health Insurance Marketplace will still open for business starting tomorrow, without delay.

Washington needs to stop manufacturing crises and focus on the issues that matter: creating jobs and building a strong middle class. Taking our economy over the cliff just to score political points isn't fair to the millions of Americans who show up every day to work and do their jobs. It’s time for Congress to do its job.

Make sure you know exactly who this shutdown is directly affecting and then pass it on.

Thanks,

David

David Simas
Deputy Senior Advisor
The White House
@Simas44

P.S. -- You'll still be able to sign up for affordable health insurance on HealthCare.gov starting tomorrow, shutdown or no shutdown.


:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:

[razark]

Ok...I'm on the White House Email List.

I just got this email...
As of midnight, I'm not allowed to check my email. Time to grab a beer and some sleep. I've got to get up early so they can send me home when I get to work.

[eddie]

I'm ashamed of what we are supposed to have as a govt in DC! They are as worthless as the day is long! Would love to take them all to the Anacostia bridge around 1 AM, and see how long they last! The Gang Bangers down there would take care of the whole bunch, and we could elect a whole new group!

[Tribesman]

I think that it is safe to say that the rest of the world is looking on at this with a lot of confusion and some consternation, I must admit that I am, and I think this article speaks for some of us from outside of America:
I found this snippet off your link.
Since your preceding post mentioned the Pelosi I thought it rather fitting.



2) Thought experiment. Let's suppose it's the fall of 2005. Suppose George W. Bush has been reelected, as he was in real life. Let's suppose, also as in reality, the Senate remained in Republican hands. But then suppose that Nancy Pelosi and her Democrats had already won control of the House, rather than doing so two years later. So suppose that the lineup as of 2005 had been:

Reelected Republican president;
The president's Republican party retaining control of the Senate; and
Democrats controlling only one chamber, the House.
Then suppose further that Pelosi's newly empowered House Democrats announced that unless George W. Bush agreed to reverse the sweeping tax cuts that had been the signature legislative achievement of his first term, they would refuse to pass a budget so that the federal government could operate, and would threaten a default on U.S. sovereign debt. Alternatively, that unless Bush immediately withdrew from Iraq, federal government funding would cease and the debt ceiling would be frozen.

In this imagined world, I contend:

"respectable" opinion would be all over Pelosi and the Democrats for their "shrill," "extreme" demands, especially given their lack of broad electoral mandate;
hand-wringing editorials would point out that if you want to change policy, there's an established route to do so, which involves passing new bills and getting them signed into law, rather than issuing "otherwise we blow up the government" ultimatums;
no one would be saying that the "grownups in the room" had to resolve the crisis by giving away, say, half of the president's tax cuts. (Even though, to my taste, that would have been a positive step.)
The circumstances are the mirror image now. A party that within the past year has:

lost the presidency by 5 million votes;
lost the Senate by a total of 10 million votes;
held onto control of the House through favorable districting, while losing the overall House vote by 1.7 million nationwide
... is nonetheless dictating terms to the rest of the government. This would have been called extreme and unreasonable under an imagined Nancy Pelosi House in 2005. It is extreme and unreasonable now.

[TarJak]

How it's being reported herehttp://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-01/us-government-in-shutdown-after-dispute-over-obamacare/4991400

[AVGWarhawk]

Let it shut down. The parks will be closed. Tax auditing will stop. Civilian fed employees stay home. A few paychecks delayed. Did I miss anything? The govt has shut down before and for lesser reasons as this. Everyone survived.

[mookiemookie]

It goes a little deeper than just "oh, well I guess we can't go to Yellowstone this weekend." One of the reasons S&P gave when they lowered the U.S.'s credit rating was "political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed."

The shutdown has real lasting economic effects. Damn them all for playing party politics with people's lives. We're nothing more than pawns to them. This is a national embarrassment.

In Canada, a failed national budget immediately causes Parliament to be dissolved and a federal election to be called. That would be a great thing to implement here.

[AVGWarhawk]

No, it really does not go deeper than that. Markets react certainly. If I'm not mistaken, after the last shut down, the markets increased 10% after the on switch was hit. This only demonstrates the dysfunctional nature of the douche bags running the asylum. This is a indicator that term limits need to be addressed.

[AVGWarhawk]

That's it! I have had enough. They pandacam at the National Zoo has been turned off. :stare:

[Wolferz]

The Republicans think they're giving the Democrats a black eye in all of this. What they are actually doing is shooting themselves in the foot...again.
I wish them luck in the mid terms, they'll need it as America votes them out of their cushy jobs. He who laughs last, laughs in the unemployment line.:haha:

Oops. No unemployment because the office is closed.:hmmm:

Look away folks. GOP sepaku isn't a pretty sight.

[AVGWarhawk]

The Republicans think they're giving the Democrats a black eye in all of this. What they are actually doing is shooting themselves in the foot...again.
I wish them luck in the mid terms, they'll need it as America votes them out of their cushy jobs. He who laughs last, laughs in the unemployment line.:haha:

Oops. No unemployment because the office is closed.:hmmm:

Look away folks. GOP sepaku isn't a pretty sight.

They are all looking stupid and childish. The last mid-term elections the Repubs were voted in to stop crazy spending. Here they are doing it and folks are up in arms. This makes zero sense. Then again, what occurs these days anywhere at any time makes no sense.

The unemployment office is open. Checks will go out. Might be a bit delayed but non-the-less open.

[Jimbuna]

Fast becoming a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

[Aktungbby]

Look away folks. GOP sepaku isn't a pretty sight.
death haiku(traditional) :The GOP/ is a gop o'goo/ as the congress does/ a great SKIDOO:/\\!!

[Jimbuna]

They are all looking stupid and childish. The last mid-term elections the Repubs were voted in to stop crazy spending. Here they are doing it and folks are up in arms. This makes zero sense. Then again, what occurs these days anywhere at any time makes no sense.

The unemployment office is open. Checks will go out. Might be a bit delayed but non-the-less open.

One BBC news report reckon it is a small minority of Tea Party anarchists that are the root cause :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

One BBC news report reckon it is a small minority of Tea Party anarchists that are the root cause :hmmm:
They thought that in 1775 too!:rotfl2:

[Ducimus]

That's it! I have had enough. They pandacam at the National Zoo has been turned off. :stare:

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/0/04/Oh-noes-everybody-panic.gif

The Republicans think they're giving the Democrats a black eye in all of this. What they are actually doing is shooting themselves in the foot...again.
I wish them luck in the mid terms, they'll need it as America votes them out of their cushy jobs. He who laughs last, laughs in the unemployment line.:haha:

Oops. No unemployment because the office is closed.:hmmm:

Look away folks. GOP sepaku isn't a pretty sight.

This is what worries me about all this. While I do agree that Obamacare should be opposed, i think what transpired in this incident is..... tactically unwise? I'm no fan of the GOP, but they need to stay in place as a counter to the liberal progressive left. If the GOP ends up making themselves irrelevant though loss of votes on the national stage, what will end up happening is no counterweight to the stop the big government no personal rights nanny state the Democrats are sure to install.

One BBC news report reckon it is a small minority of Tea Party anarchists that are the root cause :hmmm:
They thought that in 1775 too!:rotfl2:

What was the percentage of that minority.. oh yeah, that's right, popular opinion has that minority placed at 3% in 1775.

[BossMark]

We all know the real reason the government is shutting down.

GTA 5 online is being launched tomorrow.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Bilge_Rat]

http://imageshack.us/a/img4/4316/4ch0.jpg


"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

-Napoleon.

[Dread Knot]

Fast becoming a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

Welcome to the Banana Republic of America. Care for a coconut? :D

I think the salient lesson the outside world can learn from all this, is that an exclusively two-party system isn't such a great idea. :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

One BBC news report reckon it is a small minority of Tea Party anarchists that are the root cause :hmmm:

There is 435 of them. One in the White House. And nine at the Supreme Court. All are root causes.

[AVGWarhawk]

Fast becoming a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

Not much more laughing than other countries on this mud ball. :up: :O:

[Mr Quatro]

What's the hurry? No big deal the vote to extend the federal budget was only going to last till mid November anyway.

The biggie problem is the debt ceiling vote due mid October ...

misewell wait and vote for both at the same time, right?

Debt ceiling: 8 things you need to know but wish you didn't (http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/27/news/economy/debt-ceiling-faqs/index.html)

[Wolferz]

Just go ahead and lock the doors to congress and the senate. Cut off their paychecks and send their worthless backsides home.
People are blubbering because they can't go visit Yellowstone for cripes sake!:timeout::rotfl2:

[AVGWarhawk]

Just go ahead and lock the doors to congress and the senate. Cut off their paychecks and send their worthless backsides home.
People are blubbering because they can't go visit Yellowstone for cripes sake!:timeout::rotfl2:


Both the House and Senate continue getting paid. Notice a trend here for the political elite? :yep::shifty:

[Bubblehead1980]

The GOP are fighting for the people here, the Democrats let the shutdown happen because they want this ignorant law to take effect.

People let the few good points about this law(such as pre existing conditions) cloud their judgement on the monstrosity that this law is and the deep, hurtful economic impact it is already having and will have in the future. This law has 19 or so new taxes in it, the 15% tax on new medical equipment is one of the most hurtful and it is one the Republicans tried to have removed in their last minute deal but the Democrats refused, despite the consequences. This tax on medical equipment costs companies that produce the equipment, it costs the supply companies, it costs the hospitals, health care facilities etc, in turn this raises hospital bills, which costs the insurance companies, which in turn is finally passed on to the consumer via higher premiums.Wait, wait, the law was supposed to lower costs lol that is why premiums have gone up(along with other taxes) in many states and will continue as this monstrosity is further implemented.

This law is causing many businesses to cut back workers to part time to avoid having to pay the outrageously high premiums to cover employees.Suddenly, people have less money to spend, the residual effects of bills not being paid on time, less consumer spending etc equals a large economic slowdown.Now, they managed to get a one year reprieve on the business mandate but they are still cutting and will even more once it expires.What about fairness? Individual mandate was not delayed so they expect individuals to pay for ever rising healthcare costs and funny thing is, the premiums will cost more than the fines for not having insurance lol idiots designed this law.Guess who wanted to delay it along with the equipment tax? The Republicans, the so called "bullies" , not the Democrats, they refused, to hell with the people, they want their crappy law shoved down our throat, even if it means shutting down the government and refusing the deal.Who is the real bully here? This is not opinion, this is fact, it happened last night.

Bottom line, Republicans are fighting for the people, even if some are too ignorant to realize it, they trying to mitigate the damage this law will cause and the Democrats and the , ugh President are the ones refusing to compromise.Their baby(the law) is deeply unpopular, idiotic, and just wrong, but they don't care, why? Because it is more money and power for the government, it will also make people disgusted with private insurance(more so) and get the overall ignorant populace to open up to "single payer" healthcare in a few years, then, we will be really screwed.That is their long game, so before go jump on that bandwagon, learn what this law really does and why this fight is happening.Shutting down the government is worth stopping this law or trying to.

[mookiemookie]

"Punch yourself in the balls until you puke and we won't shut down the government."

"What? No!"

"Ok, let's compromise. Punch yourself in the balls until you double over in pain. You don't have to puke. It's a compromise!"

"But I still have to punch myself in the balls. I don't see how that's a compromise."

"I gave a little. See? You used to have to punch until you vomited. Now just until you nearly collapse. So we're agreed, right?"

"But all I get out of the deal is a bit less ball-punching."

"LOOK HERE EVERYONE, THEY WON'T COMPROMISE!"

[AVGWarhawk]

"The Day the Government Shut Down and the Markets Did Not Care." A short story by Timothy Geithner.

[Ducimus]

Yup, there's gonna be a whole lot of angry words being exchanged for the near foreseeable future.

So stealhead, what was that you were saying about polarization? :O:

[Oberon]

It does go further than closed parks and tourist attractions though, just take a look at this thread, and razark. If this thing only lasts a couple of days then the effect will be minimal, but if it goes to twenty-one days like last time then there's going to be a lot of Americans who are going to be eating into their savings, and as such they are going to be reluctant to spend and that will have a knock on effect to businesses. It's not a big knock-on affect, it's not the end of the world for the US economy, but it's something that it could do without.
Then there's the knock-on effect that the shutdown has had on the view of the US government and its members by both the US people and the people of the world, when the last shutdown happened under Clinton it was widely acknowledged to be a factor that helped re-elect Clinton, because the Republicans were seen as being behind the shutdown and it hurt them. This time it's a bit less clear-cut as the Democrats are seen as being partly involved by refusing to negotiate, but nevertheless this will backfire on the Republicans badly, especially if they do go ahead and play chicken with the debt-ceiling in a fortnight.

So, short story long, whilst this might not be devastating for America and the world, it's troubling and bad news for those people who are either working without pay (and no guarantee of back-pay) or those who have been told that they have no work to do (and no pay to have), it's bad news for the Republicans who risk being fingered for this mess, and it's bad news for Americas standing in the world who are looking on in some confusion as to how this has been allowed to happen.

[Bubblehead1980]

"Punch yourself in the balls until you puke and we won't shut down the government."

"What? No!"

"Ok, let's compromise. Punch yourself in the balls until you double over in pain. You don't have to puke. It's a compromise!"

"But I still have to punch myself in the balls. I don't see how that's a compromise."

"I gave a little. See? You used to have to punch until you vomited. Now just until you nearly collapse. So we're agreed, right?"

"But all I get out of the deal is a bit less ball-punching."

"LOOK HERE EVERYONE, THEY WON'T COMPROMISE!"

Honestly, you don't think it was reasonable for GOP to ask for the 15% tax(which is causing premiums to rise) to be delayed or removed? and for the individual mandate to be delayed? Only fair since the business mandate was delayed? The mandate and tax are highly unpopular parts of the law that have no place there to begin with.These were reasonable, fair options, the Senate and President refused, now the government is shut down.

[Bubblehead1980]

The sad part of this that needs to be discussed is that the federal government is large enough, enough people depend on it for employment or benefits that is actually matters if it shuts down.This is the sad part of all this, the federal government should be relatively inconsequential unless we are at war.Too many people depend on the government for a job, too many depend on it for their NEEDS. Seriously wish Doc Brown would roll up in a time machine and could go back and stop some of the progressive fools who caused this. :/\\!!

[AVGWarhawk]

It does go further than closed parks and tourist attractions though, just take a look at this thread, and razark. If this thing only lasts a couple of days then the effect will be minimal, but if it goes to twenty-one days like last time then there's going to be a lot of Americans who are going to be eating into their savings, and as such they are going to be reluctant to spend and that will have a knock on effect to businesses. It's not a big knock-on affect, it's not the end of the world for the US economy, but it's something that it could do without.
Then there's the knock-on effect that the shutdown has had on the view of the US government and its members by both the US people and the people of the world, when the last shutdown happened under Clinton it was widely acknowledged to be a factor that helped re-elect Clinton, because the Republicans were seen as being behind the shutdown and it hurt them. This time it's a bit less clear-cut as the Democrats are seen as being partly involved by refusing to negotiate, but nevertheless this will backfire on the Republicans badly, especially if they do go ahead and play chicken with the debt-ceiling in a fortnight.

So, short story long, whilst this might not be devastating for America and the world, it's troubling and bad news for those people who are either working without pay (and no guarantee of back-pay) or those who have been told that they have no work to do (and no pay to have), it's bad news for the Republicans who risk being fingered for this mess, and it's bad news for Americas standing in the world who are looking on in some confusion as to how this has been allowed to happen.


That is what savings accounts are for. Rainy day or issues like this that crop up. I, like many others, have lost jobs and eaten up savings. Or in my case, blew my 401k to stay afloat. Did anyone really care? No sir. People are already reluctant to spend. Nothing much will change in my opinion. Furthermore, gov't employees can work their vacation weeks getting paid plus get the paid vacation on top. Sorry the worker loses a week of vacation but ain't we all lost a vacation at one time for another?

Also, those in the US that do not work for the Fed are faced with much more daunting/different realities than what the Fed worker faces. We are not provided free pension or healthcare program. We save in a 401k. Some are lucky enough to have the employer handle healthcare. Some are not. The Fed gets every holiday off with pay. Many other workers do not. As a Fed worker you are pretty much guaranteed a place of employment until you retire. Other jobs do not afford such great deals. So, take the good with the bad.

And to add, the government has shut down plenty of times. Everyone survived to tell about it.
:salute:

[Ducimus]

"The Day the Government Shut Down and the Markets Did Not Care." A short story by Timothy Geithner.

I think those of the left leaning persuasion are butthurt over this the most. They just can't live without big brother doing and deciding things for them. The mere thought of it, is probably scary.


So, short story long, whilst this might not be devastating for America and the world, it's troubling and bad news for those people who are either working without pay (and no guarantee of back-pay) or those who have been told that they have no work to do (and no pay to have), it's bad news for the Republicans who risk being fingered for this mess, and it's bad news for Americas standing in the world who are looking on in some confusion as to how this has been allowed to happen.

I think the Democrats set this trap for the Republicans from the outset, with perhaps the long view of next elections in mind. The Democrat rhetoric being thrown around weeks beforehand is kind of a clue. Then the republicans painted themselves into a corner, with few options out if the didn't want to become utter pushovers that can be bullied around. I've said it before, and i'll say it again, I fear the day when the Democrats have control over the Senate, the house, and the Oval office. With no weighty counter balance, we'll have what's tantamount to a one party system lead by an ideology that wipes its ass with the constitution; and they'll put us well on our way toward an authoritarian nanny state devoid of individual rights.

As for our standing in the world, it already is crap thanks to "The chosen ones" myriad scandals, blatant bold faced lies, and utter pooch screw of the Syria incident. This is just icing on the cake.

[Oberon]

That is what savings accounts are for. Rainy day or issues like this that crop up. I, like many others, have lost jobs and eaten up savings. Or in my case, blew my 401k to stay afloat. Did anyone really care? No sir. People are already reluctant to spend. Nothing much will change in my opinion. Furthermore, gov't employees can work their vacation weeks getting paid plus get the paid vacation on top. Sorry the worker loses a week of vacation but ain't we all lost a vacation at one time for another?

Also, those in the US that do not work for the Fed are faced with much more daunting/different realities than what the Fed worker faces. We are not provided free pension or healthcare program. We save in a 401k. Some are lucky enough to have the employer handle healthcare. Some are not. The Fed gets every holiday off with pay. Many other workers do not. As a Fed worker you are pretty much guaranteed a place of employment until you retire. Other jobs do not afford such great deals. So, take the good with the bad.

And to add, the government has shut down plenty of times. Everyone survived to tell about it.
:salute:

I guess it depends on each individual, and certainly there were warning signs that a shutdown was going to happen at some point, if not now then next time the issue came up, and in a way it's better that any confrontations are sorted out now rather than during the debt ceiling vote, but since neither side seem ready to negotiate at the moment then I wonder what's going to change between now and the debt ceiling negotiation, but we will see.
Oh, like I said, it's not the end of the world, but it's not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.

[Webster]

I fear the day when the Democrats have control over the Senate, the house, and the Oval office. With no weighty counter balance, we'll have what's tantamount to a one party system lead by an ideology that wipes its ass with the constitution; and they'll put us well on our way toward an authoritarian nanny state devoid of individual rights.




it already happened from 2008-2010 and out of that we got out of control debt, obamacare, 17% "real" unemployment, and 47% of americans on food stamps and other forms of government handouts to ensure dependency on the government system and the need to vote democrat to preserve the free ride.

people love socialism as long as they are getting the benefits of whats taken from others but the problem with socialism is at some point you will run out of others to take from.

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess it depends on each individual, and certainly there were warning signs that a shutdown was going to happen at some point, if not now then next time the issue came up, and in a way it's better that any confrontations are sorted out now rather than during the debt ceiling vote, but since neither side seem ready to negotiate at the moment then I wonder what's going to change between now and the debt ceiling negotiation, but we will see.
Oh, like I said, it's not the end of the world, but it's not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Agreed, certainly not a good thing. If it drags on then it gets worse for the individual that is not working as a result of the shut down. I really do not wish this on anyone, however, this action by the Fed is a part of the job description. The WH can click one finger and give the Fed workers the day off with pay before a major holiday. And the WH has and will do in the future. Like anyone else, everyone has to take the good with the bad. Everyone in the work force has to accept that reality.

There are over 400 people on Capital Hill that need to grow up and quickly. The Repubs are working towards something for the good of all. Have they really asked to take ACA off the books? No. Asked for a delay. Asked that Fed employees sign up at the ACA site. No reason the political elite and their minions should get a free ride. The Senate refuses to even entertain what is proposed. The doors are closed. It is childish. Why we as American's would continue to keep these self-serving individuals on the rolls is beyond me.

[AVGWarhawk]

it already happened and we got obamacare, 17% "real" unemployment, and 47% of americans on food stamps and other forms of government handouts to ensure dependency on the government system and the need to vote democrat to preserve the free ride.

And Webster has summed it up nicely. :yep: Well played Dems. Well played.

[Oberon]

I think the Democrats set this trap for the Republicans from the outset, with perhaps the long view of next elections in mind. The Democrat rhetoric being thrown around weeks beforehand is kind of a clue. Then the republicans painted themselves into a corner, with few options out if the didn't want to become utter pushovers that can be bullied around. I've said it before, and i'll say it again, I fear the day when the Democrats have control over the Senate, the house, and the Oval office. With no weighty counter balance, we'll have what's tantamount to a one party system lead by an ideology that wipes its ass with the constitution; and they'll put us well on our way toward an authoritarian nanny state devoid of individual rights.

As for our standing in the world, it already is crap thanks to "The chosen ones" myriad scandals, blatant bold faced lies, and utter pooch screw of the Syria incident. This is just icing on the cake.

I think that is the thing that has been the undoing of the Republicans of late, well, one of them anyway. The Democrats have been laying out some pretty obvious traps for them, and they're just running into them with a big smile on their face. The Syrian vote was a trap, but the Russians managed to save the Republicans (that's something I never thought I'd type).
There's been very little political sense in the GOP for a while, since they just walk, or perhaps are pushed by their radical members, into some very obvious traps and it's costing them.

Not sure I'd agree with you on the whole one party system thing, but obviously America has a different way of conducting things than the rest of the world, so I wouldn't start to say about some sort of totalitarian takeover of the US and the destruction of the US constitution.

As for the standing, well, 'the chosen one' has certainly made some hefty foreign policy blunders which have only compounded those made by his predecessor.

[Bubblehead1980]

I think that is the thing that has been the undoing of the Republicans of late, well, one of them anyway. The Democrats have been laying out some pretty obvious traps for them, and they're just running into them with a big smile on their face. The Syrian vote was a trap, but the Russians managed to save the Republicans (that's something I never thought I'd type).
There's been very little political sense in the GOP for a while, since they just walk, or perhaps are pushed by their radical members, into some very obvious traps and it's costing them.

Not sure I'd agree with you on the whole one party system thing, but obviously America has a different way of conducting things than the rest of the world, so I wouldn't start to say about some sort of totalitarian takeover of the US and the destruction of the US constitution.

As for the standing, well, 'the chosen one' has certainly made some hefty foreign policy blunders which have only compounded those made by his predecessor.


Don't agree with the one party thing? Remember 2008-2010 with Dems controlling House, Senate, and Presidency? That is what got us obamacare, despite the people not wanting it, along with a host of other blunders.Should obama get that majority back, we will be in grave danger.

[vienna]

On the local news here in Los Angeles, someone came up with a very clever analogy for the Far Right's attempt to stop ACA by shutting down the government: It's kind of like the last place team in the league trying to stop the World Series just because they didn't make it to the playoffs...

The Far Right's minions need to accept the fact neither Obama nor the Democrats soley passed the ACA; the law was passed by Congress and only could have done so with the complicity of both Dem and GOP members of both Houses. Obama din't pass the law: no President can pass a law, only Congress. The Dems in Congress didn't solely pass the law: they don't have the numbers just on their own to do so and were abetted by some GOP members. The Far Right also doesn't have anywhere near the numbers to overturn the law through the proscribed Consitutional i.e., legal means, and are now resorting to childish bullying tactics. They are an embarassment. And the whole idea of blacklisting by the extreme Right of any GOP Congressional member who does not toe the line is anti-thetical not only to the ideals of Constitutional, democratic processes, it reeks of power through extortion, or less delicately, racketeerism. If the only way the "ayatollahs" of the GOP Far Right can exert their influence is to blackmail their own membership, then the future of the Party is dim indeed. If the Party cannot sway opinion using reason or logic or decency and must bully it's way through, they will find themselves even further out of favor with the voting public than they are now. It is impossible to defeat your foe (Obama/Dems) when you hand to them a fully loaded weapon to use against you...


<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't agree with the one party thing? Remember 2008-2010 with Dems controlling House, Senate, and Presidency? That is what got us obamacare, despite the people not wanting it, along with a host of other blunders.Should obama get that majority back, we will be in grave danger.

Obama is finished after this term. It will make little difference to him while basking in the sun on a Hawaiian island! :hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

On the local news here in Los Angeles, someone came up with a very clever analogy for the Far Right's attempt to stop ACA by shutting down the government: It's kind of like the last place team in the league trying to stop the World Series just because they didn't make it to the playoffs...

The Far Right's minions need to accept the fact neither Obama nor the Democrats soley passed the ACA; the law was passed by Congress and only could have done so with the complicity of both Dem and GOP members of both Houses. Obama din't pass the law: no President can pass a law, only Congress. The Dems in Congress didn't solely pass the law: they don't have the numbers just on their own to do so and were abetted by some GOP members. The Far Right also doesn't have anywhere near the numbers to overturn the law through the proscribed Consitutional i.e., legal means, and are now resorting to childish bullying tactics. They are an embarassment. And the whole idea of blacklisting by the extreme Right of any GOP Congressional member who does not toe the line is anti-thetical not only to the ideals of Constitutional, democratic processes, it reeks of power through extortion, or less delicately, racketeerism. If the only way the "ayatollahs" of the GOP Far Right can exert their influence is to blackmail their own membership, then the future of the Party is dim indeed. If the Party cannot sway opinion using reason or logic or decency and must bully it's way through, they will find themselves even further out of favot with the voting public than they are now. It is impossible to defeat your foe (Obama/Dems) when you hand to them a fully loaded weapon to use against you...


<O>

Wrong! The Democrats had a super majority, controlled House, Senate, and the Presidency.The public was against this law but the Dems thumbed their noses and passed it anyways, obama signed it.Now, the law is clearly a threat to the economy and health care system and is even more unpopular so the GOP is actually fighting for the people and made reasonable proposals to drop or just delay two unpopular provisions, the individual mandate(business mandate was delayed, why not for the people? pretty unfair to give business a break but not the people) and the 15% tax on medical equipment which is one reason premiums have already risen and will continue to rise as the cost gets passed down the chain from producer, to supplier, to hospital, to insurance company, to the consumer, all while the government gets money.

The Democrats ignored the will of the people, and said nope, no deal, and shut down the government.

[Oberon]

Don't agree with the one party thing? Remember 2008-2010 with Dems controlling House, Senate, and Presidency? That is what got us obamacare, despite the people not wanting it, along with a host of other blunders.Should obama get that majority back, we will be in grave danger.

As said from the top of the hill on the right of the center, and as would be flat-out denied from the hill of the left of center.
The center is where I'm coming from, and right now there's so much noise being made from left and right that the whole picture is a mess. It's a bit like two hills, and in the middle are the people, and on these hills are the ideological Republicans and Democrats, and they're just pouring water into the ground, and they're keeping nice and dry, and that water is running down hill and flooding the poor sods in the center. :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

On the local news here in Los Angeles.....


I stopped reading there. Any "news" out of the not-so-golden state, with the democratic super majority is going to be slinging more rhetoric then my previous post. Which is quite a lot.

[Bubblehead1980]

As said from the top of the hill on the right of the center, and as would be flat-out denied from the hill of the left of center.
The center is where I'm coming from, and right now there's so much noise being made from left and right that the whole picture is a mess. It's a bit like two hills, and in the middle are the people, and on these hills are the ideological Republicans and Democrats, and they're just pouring water into the ground, and they're keeping nice and dry, and that water is running down hill and flooding the poor sods in the center. :hmmm:


Sure, easy to get lost in the noise, that is what the Dems want.However, anyone really paying attention should be able to see, a deal, and a reasonable one at that, was there, the Dems refused, it is that simple.I get your point though. I just can't understand "centrists" , I seem them as unprincipled, not knowing where they stand.Failing to see the sheer idiocy and evil in some policies.This is something the dems have learned to take advantage of though, those willing to give the benefit of the doubt.Honestly, it is the only reason obama is president again despite all the damning evidence, we are a nation that is fair, sometimes too fair.

[Dread Knot]

http://thenewmic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/us-and-them-by-jeff-macnelly.jpg

[Oberon]

Cause aside, some members are being...sensible and taking this opportunity to clock up some points:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/01/which-lawmakers-will-refuse-their-pay-during-the-shutdown/



Also:

http://cdn.pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/cQahPEK.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

Someone said that the republican's in the house voted this Obama health care act into being and that is just not so.

Pelosi was the majority house speaker at the time it passed, remember?

It was congress minority leader Boehner that came in at midnight and threw the hundreds of pages up in the air as thick as a phone book and said, "have any of you read this law"? "hell no you haven't" "all you've done is vote on party grounds"

That's where it stands three years later a law passed on party grounds with no give or take, except the last one to extend the employers penalties until 2015 and now we know why?

This law will hurt 300 million people to help 30 million ...

What's the next takeover, cell phones, gasoline, electrical power, buy a government car only?

Name one thing good to come out of hiring 13,000 additional IRS agents to check on your banking activities?

[Ducimus]

I think that is the thing that has been the undoing of the Republicans of late, well, one of them anyway. The Democrats have been laying out some pretty obvious traps for them, and they're just running into them with a big smile on their face. The Syrian vote was a trap, but the Russians managed to save the Republicans (that's something I never thought I'd type).

I do agree.

There's been very little political sense in the GOP for a while, since they just walk, or perhaps are pushed by their radical members, into some very obvious traps and it's costing them.

I think as a party it is having a major identity crises. There's many more ideological divisions within the Republican party then the Democrats.

Not sure I'd agree with you on the whole one party system thing, but obviously America has a different way of conducting things than the rest of the world, so I wouldn't start to say about some sort of totalitarian takeover of the US and the destruction of the US constitution.

It's not going to happen overnight, but the way things are going, unless things change drastically, I think it will happen. Maybe not within my lifetime, but most certainly within the lifetime of my unborn child's. Especially if the only counter to the Democrats is fragmented, stumbles into political traps, and is unable to garner enough votes as a result.

What's more, currently the notion of "compromise" is right out. It's obviously out with the two parties, and its seen as a sign of weakness from their supporters. Personally, while I am not a big fan of the GOP, i am so throughly disgusted with the Democrats that I cannot force myself to listen to anything they have to say anymore. Watching Fienstien, Reid, or Obama speak? I can't do it. Watching any Democrat talking head only makes me angry. So i guess compromise is lost on me as well.



As for the standing, well, 'the chosen one' has certainly made some hefty foreign policy blunders which have only compounded those made by his predecessor.

True. It has never been lost on me that a lot of the BS we have today was started by Bush.

[mapuc]

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5243d5d3/turbine/la-na-tt-ted-cruz-20130925-001/600

I really, really, really hope the GOP nominate Cruz for president in 16.....:ping:

How a person can be influenced by external stuff.
When I saw this picture for the first time I didn't know who this Ted Cruz was. A few hours later I saw him on CNN for the first time and guess what... I saw him as some kind of lemmings

Not nice I don't know him and his politics

Markus

[Oberon]

I do agree.
I think as a party it is having a major identity crises. There's many more ideological divisions within the Republican party then the Democrats

Definitely, and in fact I think that both parties are having some deep identity crisis's, and both sides are drifting away from the center and off to their respective sides of the spectrum. In the Republicans there are more people reluctant to go in that direction than in the Democrats, and that has caused these divisions, with accusations and counter-accusations. I think that the Democratic unity is probably aided by the fact that they have a man in office, I suspect that if Obama wasn't president the Democrats would also be going through a self-validation cycle, a bit like our Labour party which is floundering around for ideas at the moment and trying to get back to its far-left roots, and making a real mess of it.

It's not going to happen overnight, but the way things are going, unless things change drastically, I think it will happen. Maybe not within my lifetime, but most certainly within the lifetime of my unborn child's. Especially if the only counter to the Democrats is fragmented, stumbles into political traps, and is unable to garner enough votes as a result.

I can't rule it out as impossible, certainly it could happen, just as the Nazis took over Germany, anything is possible if done slowly and carefully enough. I suspect that there would need to be a great deal of social, political and economic upheaval to permit something like this to happen, a major war or attack on America perhaps, like World War One and the subsequent financial collapse lead the pathway to the Nazi party.
I would caution though, against falling into a ideological trap that states that it would be a Democratic leadership that would do such a thing, honestly either side would take an opportunity to gain more power, it's got nothing to do with ideology, nothing to do with politics, but simple human greed, and that spans any ideology.

What's more, currently the notion of "compromise" is right out. It's obviously out with the two parties, and its seen as a sign of weakness from their supporters. Personally, while I am not a big fan of the GOP, i am so throughly disgusted with the Democrats that I cannot force myself to listen to anything they have to say anymore. Watching Fienstien, Reid, or Obama speak? I can't do it. Watching any Democrat talking head only makes me angry. So i guess compromise is lost on me as well.

There's a lot of anger in America, I must admit, the sheer emotion of the American society, often represented in anger and harsh rhetoric, un-nerves me, and I ponder if it hasn't lead to the impasse with emotions overwhelming and overriding rational thought. I don't know, I just see a lot of people opening their mouths first and then engaging their brains, and that is a worry.

True. It has never been lost on me that a lot of the BS we have today was started by Bush.

Indeed, certainly when you look at the debt, you see a plateau around the Clinton era...but then 9/11 happens and blam, off it goes.

Over here in Britain we have a term which originated in a political TV drama called 'The Thick of It', one of the more memorable characters in which is played by the same chap who will be the new Doctor Who. In it, he describes a situation as an 'omnishambles' which has made it into the Oxford dictionary with the following definition:

a situation that has been comprehensively mismanaged, characterized by a string of blunders and miscalculations:
anyone with five minutes to spare, a Maths GCSE, and a calculator could have averted the entire omnishambles by checking the civil servants' sums

The current situation in the United States IS an Omnishambles, and it's been caused by both sides, and it has been in the making for well over a decade.

[Wolferz]

Bread and circuses....
They steal our bread and we get clowned.:-?:down:

I have nothing good to say about either party so I won't say anything other than they're all complicit and culpable in my book.
It might be time to oil up the guillotine. Heads bobbing in the reflecting pool of that big phallic monument might dissuade the next batch of critters from doing something stupid too.

[eddie]

I think they got something to say here, eh?

http://now.msn.com/house-of-turds-new-york-daily-news-headline-about-federal-government-shutdown

[Bilge_Rat]

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/1633/75rs.jpg

[vienna]

"In jest, there is truth."

Wm. Shakespeare


<O>

[Tchocky]

Don't make the mistake of thinking the shutdown is a product of two parties.

I'm not a fan of saying that a situation exists because of just one factor - it's usually untrue.

But in this case the GOP made a specific decision to avoid negotiation and use crises in order to get what they want.

This should surprise nobody.

[Ducimus]

I was wondering when this guy was gonna chime in.

The Truth About the Government Shutdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo-jgXL-XIQ) (22:56)

He's acutally one of my subscriptions on youtube. I don't always listen to his show, but he articulates his arguments very well.

[Tchocky]

Ok two sentences in and this guy is lying.

"Republicans are asking for a one year delay in implementing Obamacare and a medical device tax repeal in exchange for funding Obamacare"

Flat out wrong.

They're asking for those things in exchange for funding everything.

[Madox58]

Man I was bummed to find out OSHA can't send anyone to my job sites.
:har:

[Ducimus]

I would caution though, against falling into a ideological trap that states that it would be a Democratic leadership that would do such a thing, honestly either side would take an opportunity to gain more power, it's got nothing to do with ideology, nothing to do with politics, but simple human greed, and that spans any ideology.


Though I do see the wisdom in your words, I'll explain briefly why I think it is the Democrat's that are the most capable of the things I described.

For one, general outlook on the scope of government. Generally speaking, Republicans are for smaller government with less oversight, Democrats are for larger government with more oversight. I do not think it a coincidence that areas with that are controlled by the Democrats also happen to be areas that have more taxes and regulation. (See California)

For two, and for me this is paramount, the general outlook on the supreme law of the land. The United States Constitution and the Bill of rights. For the most part, Republicans don't mess with it. Yes, they are guilty of installing nanny state like apparatus in the form of some agency like the TSA that seems to go around individual liberties. However, the difference lies in that the Democrats will go after your individual liberties directly. Their outlook is that the supreme law of the land, means, whatever they think it means. They see the Constitution and Bill of rights as a "living document" that is flexible in meaning. Which in all reality is the same as saying, "Your rights are what we say they are."

Add in those two items, with the outright lies that career politicians are capable of (plenty of examples with Obama on youtube), and make ineffective any opposition so they can ramrod whatever they want, and its a recipe for future disaster.

[Tchocky]

Republicans don't seem to be wild about the 14th Amendment.

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

[Tchocky]

Strange. The idea is that a shutdown is so bad that it will force Democratic lawmakers to get rid of the ACA.

Now today we had Sen Cruz proposing funding a few agencies, the VA and national parks. What's the point, to make the shutdown better for the country? Then where's the leverage to get rid of the ACA?

[Bubblehead1980]

Man I was bummed to find out OSHA can't send anyone to my job sites.
:har:


LOL why does OSHA get such a bad rep? They are one govt agency I dont have a problem with, on paper anyways.Sure they go overboard, as govt tends to do.

[Oberon]

Though I do see the wisdom in your words, I'll explain briefly why I think it is the Democrat's that are the most capable of the things I described.

For one, general outlook on the scope of government. Generally speaking, Republicans are for smaller government with less oversight, Democrats are for larger government with more oversight. I do not think it a coincidence that areas with that are controlled by the Democrats also happen to be areas that have more taxes and regulation. (See California)

For two, and for me this is paramount, the general outlook on the supreme law of the land. The United States Constitution and the Bill of rights. For the most part, Republicans don't mess with it. Yes, they are guilty of installing nanny state like apparatus in the form of some agency like the TSA that seems to go around individual liberties. However, the difference lies in that the Democrats will go after your individual liberties directly. Their outlook is that the supreme law of the land, means, whatever they think it means. They see the Constitution and Bill of rights as a "living document" that is flexible in meaning. Which in all reality is the same as saying, "Your rights are what we say they are."

Add in those two items, with the outright lies that career politicians are capable of (plenty of examples with Obama on youtube), and make ineffective any opposition so they can ramrod whatever they want, and its a recipe for future disaster.

I see where you're coming from, and at face value perhaps that is certainly the case, but equally both sides of the political spectrum are quite capable of undertaking an increase of their power at the expense of the public. At the risk of Godwinning, one should look at Hitler and Stalin, both had a keen urge to centralise power, both kept the public in line through application of police forces, but politically they were at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is before we factor in the people who put the money in the political banks, the big businesses and corporations, and...yes...religious organisations too, all of those have interests and influence within the political system and can push a political leader in particular directions.
So I would be reluctant to paint the Republicans as apostles of mercy, or the Democrats as power grabbing dictators, and vice versa, since things are rarely ever as simple as that, would that they were! :salute:

[Bubblehead1980]

I see where you're coming from, and at face value perhaps that is certainly the case, but equally both sides of the political spectrum are quite capable of undertaking an increase of their power at the expense of the public. At the risk of Godwinning, one should look at Hitler and Stalin, both had a keen urge to centralise power, both kept the public in line through application of police forces, but politically they were at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is before we factor in the people who put the money in the political banks, the big businesses and corporations, and...yes...religious organisations too, all of those have interests and influence within the political system and can push a political leader in particular directions.
So I would be reluctant to paint the Republicans as apostles of mercy, or the Democrats as power grabbing dictators, and vice versa, since things are rarely ever as simple as that, would that they were! :salute:

Yes, but you don't see the Republicans using the IRS to go after it's critics, you don't see then trying to do away with the second amendment, you don't see them trying to impede on the first amendment with the "fairness doctrine", you don't see them pushing for nationalized health care, mandated,.Don't see Republicans (in general) pushing the living constitution BS to justify their marxist excuse me, progressive policies. Certainly was not a Republican who signed the NDAA allowing for indefinite detention of US citizens or allowing drone strikes on US citizens without trial.Which are, as I have mentioned, tantamount to summary executions.Did Bush use drones? yes, far as I know though, not on use citizens, could be wrong but no sure.Obama has killed several american citizens with drone strikes.

Republicans have their down side, especially the party of Bush which had neocons in charge but we are pretty much weeding the pseudo liberal neocons out and getting real conservatives in charge of the party, but aside from the patriot act, which was an emotional , knee jerk reaction on all sides to 9/11, they are much more respectful of the constitution and american tradition than democrats which is nothing more than the far left socialist party of american or the progressive party lol.

[Armistead]

LOL why does OSHA get such a bad rep? They are one govt agency I dont have a problem with, on paper anyways.Sure they go overboard, as govt tends to do.


You've obviously never dealt with OSHA. I worked as a Sr Project Manager for a large contractor for 25 years. The amount of paperwork and regulations is crazy.

[Stealhead]

LOL why does OSHA get such a bad rep? They are one govt agency I dont have a problem with, on paper anyways.Sure they go overboard, as govt tends to do.


You have never dealt with OSHA before then.The idea is good requiring proper safety gear and such on work sites.Only thing is it is pretty much self regulated.In the Air Force they where insanely strict with it but that was the military and they have QA that just adds OSHA stuff to their QA list(Quality Assurance).

In the rest of the US you can call an OSHA rep and have them inspect a work site on any business for that matter(OSHA covers all work safety).That is why you have an MSDS even the most modest work place has one or is supposed just for say cleaning chemicals in the store room.If you have not heard of that well you have never truly worked or even offices have an MSDS.

Anyway you can call an OSHA rep and report an unsafe work site and they will come and inspect it.To some extent an irritated worker in many industries might gripe to his cohorts that he going to OSHA to get back at the boss.I suspect this is what Privateer is referring too.This strategy does not work because the OSHA guys just advise that things be corrected it would have to some serious accident to get in real trouble with OSHA.

The thing with OSHA is it is still the employees duty to use the safety gear.For example a welder they have to wear the steel toe boots which are provided by the employer or the hard hat or whatever.Something you might find is a factory having busted safety guards but it is pretty rare being a huge liability as I am sure you can imagine.


Anyway OSHA means tons of paperwork more than anything else.Just take a peek when a janitor goes into his store room and look for the huge 3 binder notebook on the wall that is the MSDS just part of the paperwork.Now imagine what a contractor's MSDS might look like.

It has a good goal which is to require employers to provide proper safety gear/training it is just how they go about it and I am not sure how effective they really are a spotting real violators.I knew a guy that maintained all manner of factory machinery according to him most places knew when OSHA was coming and made things look proper for the visit.

In the USAF you had to always put your seat belt on even for the most minor vehicle movement say backing a truck 3 feet backwards.That to me is just over the top and I have always been a habitual belt user.I wear anytime I am on a roadway but for simply a back up or moving a parking spot when the speed is not going to exceed 5mph it is just silly.

[Oberon]

Yes, but you don't see the Republicans using the IRS to go after it's critics, you don't see then trying to do away with the second amendment, you don't see them trying to impede on the first amendment with the "fairness doctrine", you don't see them pushing for nationalized health care, mandated,.Don't see Republicans (in general) pushing the living constitution BS to justify their marxist excuse me, progressive policies. Certainly was not a Republican who signed the NDAA allowing for indefinite detention of US citizens or allowing drone strikes on US citizens without trial.Which are, as I have mentioned, tantamount to summary executions.Did Bush use drones? yes, far as I know though, not on use citizens, could be wrong but no sure.Obama has killed several american citizens with drone strikes.

You're not exactly speaking from a position of neutrality here though, are you? Obama may have failed to shut down Guantanamo, but who set it up in the first place? Who brought in the PATRIOT act? Who killed Kamal Derwish? Who declared war on Iraq?
You see, you can google for any kind of attack ammunition on both sides of the political spectrum in America, and that's a good part of what has gone wrong with the American system. Both sides are shouting at each other so loudly that neither can actually hear what each other are saying, nor do they have any interest, it's like the middle part of World War One, with neither side making much progress and everything in the middle being turned into a morass.

Republicans have their down side, especially the party of Bush which had neocons in charge but we are pretty much weeding the pseudo liberal neocons out and getting real conservatives in charge of the party, but aside from the patriot act, which was an emotional , knee jerk reaction on all sides to 9/11, they are much more respectful of the constitution and american tradition than democrats which is nothing more than the far left socialist party of american or the progressive party lol.

But don't you think that rather than weeding out the pseudo liberal neocons you should be looking to create a balanced party that appeals to a broader voting base and gives a more stable government when elected? Right now in America there are vast swathes of middle ground that have been left unclaimed, whoever moves to take it first could well win the next election. Furthermore you might want to take a look at the definition of 'neocon' because I'm not sure you're using it in the context that you are wishing to use it in, there's not a great deal that is liberal about a neocon.


Personally, I think what sets the past two US governments (Bush and Obama) aside from other US governments before them has been one thing, the internet.
I firmly and fully believe that if we had had the internet in the days of Roosevelt we would be having exactly the same conversation. The explosion of opinions that the internet has created has served to polarise the country. Mud-raking, soundbites and propaganda which is easily assembled and posted in a chain email has taken precedence over actions and speeches.

In short, the American governmental system was designed and implemented over two hundred years ago, it has had to change over the years to accommodate new media and the fact that the world has become a smaller place with each passing decade, and now the world has caught up to and surpassed the system, the system cannot handle it, and it has broken down. It is seemingly now a rare thing to find a neutral ground in America, because to be a neutral ground seems to be unacceptable. If you don't support the Republican viewpoint then you must be a Democrat, if you don't support the Democratic viewpoint then you must be a Republican.

That's not a good situation for any nation to be in. :hmmm:

[eddie]

He leaves out an important fact about the Bush Administration too Oberon, in his first term, when they controlled both the hill and the White House, just look how big the Govt got! All under this patriotic Republican administration. And Republicans are for smaller Govt?:rolleyes:

[TarJak]

Bring back the Federalist Party.

[Jimbuna]

Bring back the Federalist Party.

They need Nick Clegg and his Lib Dems to cross the pond....and really put the spanner in the works.

[JimmyS1985]

Ugh, I hate discussing politics because I always make some enemies when I state my view on things.

Here are two statements I've made in recent days

"The Affordable Care Act is a sinister plot by Obama to make Americans live longer! We need to repeal it and replace it with the "Unaffordable Care Act"!

And

"Name two organizations whos purpose and goal is to destroy the US Economy?

1. Al Queda
2. The Tea Party"

[STEED]

They need Nick Clegg and his Lib Dems to cross the pond....and really put the spanner in the works.

What!...Better off sending them a few tubs of pot noodle than that noodle.

[Ducimus]

So I would be reluctant to paint the Republicans as apostles of mercy

Believe me I have no disillusions their either. The Patriot act was brought about under a republican administration. No, right now, I see them as the lesser of the two evils for the simple reason that a counterweight is needed. As the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. At the end of the day, I am against any political group that would wipe it's ass with the constitution and our individual rights.

[Bilge_Rat]

Day two:

http://imageshack.us/a/img5/7637/9pl.gif

[mookiemookie]

http://i.imgur.com/XuB9i4R.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

:haha: Good one mookie!

[Bubblehead1980]

You're not exactly speaking from a position of neutrality here though, are you? Obama may have failed to shut down Guantanamo, but who set it up in the first place? Who brought in the PATRIOT act? Who killed Kamal Derwish? Who declared war on Iraq?
You see, you can google for any kind of attack ammunition on both sides of the political spectrum in America, and that's a good part of what has gone wrong with the American system. Both sides are shouting at each other so loudly that neither can actually hear what each other are saying, nor do they have any interest, it's like the middle part of World War One, with neither side making much progress and everything in the middle being turned into a morass.



But don't you think that rather than weeding out the pseudo liberal neocons you should be looking to create a balanced party that appeals to a broader voting base and gives a more stable government when elected? Right now in America there are vast swathes of middle ground that have been left unclaimed, whoever moves to take it first could well win the next election. Furthermore you might want to take a look at the definition of 'neocon' because I'm not sure you're using it in the context that you are wishing to use it in, there's not a great deal that is liberal about a neocon.


Personally, I think what sets the past two US governments (Bush and Obama) aside from other US governments before them has been one thing, the internet.
I firmly and fully believe that if we had had the internet in the days of Roosevelt we would be having exactly the same conversation. The explosion of opinions that the internet has created has served to polarise the country. Mud-raking, soundbites and propaganda which is easily assembled and posted in a chain email has taken precedence over actions and speeches.

In short, the American governmental system was designed and implemented over two hundred years ago, it has had to change over the years to accommodate new media and the fact that the world has become a smaller place with each passing decade, and now the world has caught up to and surpassed the system, the system cannot handle it, and it has broken down. It is seemingly now a rare thing to find a neutral ground in America, because to be a neutral ground seems to be unacceptable. If you don't support the Republican viewpoint then you must be a Democrat, if you don't support the Democratic viewpoint then you must be a Republican.

That's not a good situation for any nation to be in. :hmmm:


Did you not see me admit Bush Admin was wrong on many levels? I discussed the PATRIOT Act and my disdain for it .I admitted I was not sure if Bush killed US citizens with drones, so if Kamal Derwish was killed, okay then, that is just as bad as obama, does not give obama a pass because Bush did it, especially with his "holier than thou" attitude he had when running for election.I am insulted by your google comment also, lets drop the condescending tone please.I don't blame Bush for Iraq as much, he was duped like the rest of us by Cheney and his circle.Bush is overall a good man who meant well, just was not up to the job intellectually.Don't think he is dumb but not exactly the brightest person out there. Cheney was the de facto president in many ways.

I am well aware of Neo-Cons, they are pseudo liberals, different foreign policy views and may want less government than Liberals, but still too much, definitely do not deserve to be called conservatives.

Yes, weeding them out is a great thing.The average voter can't tell a real difference between GOP and Democratic party at times, esp the Bush era.They figure, well they both spend a lot, both war monger, both are owned by money etc. The GOP brand is still stained by Bush, getting ready of the neocons so when do get back into power, can put through real conservative policies and have a real alternative to big government, high tax, anti liberty socialism. The American voters are still pretty fair, they need a real alternative though. Honestly, there was not a huge difference between Mitt Romney and Obama.Romney perhaps wanted lower taxes and more business friendly, which would help the economy but other than that, not much difference.Admitted he would have signed the NDAA(indefinite detention), continued the drone strikes on US citizens ACCUSED of being terrorists, spending etc Oh, his healthcare plan on national would have probably been just as bad as obamacare, maybe little less.See, no clear alternative substance wise. Now, the fluff and in this age of class warfare among the masses, they saw Romney as the out of touch rich guy, obama is the same lol but he had better fluff even with less or equally as awful substance, so aside from the padding(voter fraud, not much but enough to help) some undecided voters who could have been swung over to the GOP if had a real alternative, went with the devil the know, Barry Obama.


The new GOP that is emerging, the conservative party that respects the constitution and individual liberties, understands the dire straits socialism has left the US and that in order to save our country, we must change course, is one that with the proper messaging and right candidates, can win.The down side is we are stuck with the jesus freaks who raise hell about abortion etc but they can be managed.Really, yes, it's a good thing to weed out RINO's and neo cons.

Even with all the problems of the Bush Era GOP and the current one as it transitions and is undergoing house cleaning, it is the party closer, generally speaking to the American party.The Democratic party might as well just be called the socialist party, it is controlled by a foreign ideology that has no place in this country as it conflicts with our constitution and our traditions.Sadly, like a cancer it has grown over the years and we may be at or close to the point where its just too late to beat the cancer.Anyways, we saw what a Democratic House, Senate, and Presidency got us...stagnant economy,17 percent real unemployment, a deeply unpopular healthcare laws, indefinite detention of US citizens signed into law via the NDAA, expanded drone strikes, trillions in spending, trillions in more debt, antagonism of israel, support for enemies, naivete towards threats like Russia.Most disturbing of all is their tendency to just ignore the constitution and appoint justices and federal judges who follow the illegitimate and absolutely false notion of a "living constitution" so their agenda can be furthered.

I assure you under a President Paul, you would never see laws that violated the constitution and certainly no judges who believe in raping the constitution each time they pen a decision.

[Bubblehead1980]

http://i.imgur.com/XuB9i4R.gif


:har:

[Aktungbby]

It might be time to oil up the guillotine.
Not necessary: only an angled blade with beveling (endorsed by Louie XVI himself) is sufficient gravity being the enemy; A haircut was found to be necessary however to prevent dulling the 'National Razor'. I've often pondered what Louie's thoughts on beveling were as he (painlessly) pondered from inside the (gooey) wicker basket...as a severed head does not immediately expire till oxygen deprivation takes effect (approx. 3-4 minutes). On occasion victims were immediately yanked from the basket and asked to blink as long as possible while being timed for science of course...it was the Age of Enlightenment. Hence the humane, beveled form of execution in the first place...skilled headsmen having come into short supply! No tipping required either!:know::haha::dead:

[Aktungbby]

:har:
The god JANUS if ever

[Bilge_Rat]

Interesting read, not sure what to make of it.... Norquist blaming Cruz for the shutdown. Never thought I would see that. The sharks have started circling, looks like there's blood in the water...



Grover Norquist on Ted Cruz: ‘He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away’

(...)

But that’s not what we did. Ted Cruz, from left field, said we have to defund Obamacare permanently in this CR. If they offered the Keystone pipeline and the privatization of Fannie and Freddie you couldn’t take that. We only want this, and we only want it on Tuesday -- Wednesday is no good. The debt ceiling is no good. So that got locked in as a principle. And people went out on talk radio and said if you’re not for this you’re a coward, you’re a RINO.

(...)

The only confusion that comes out is that Cruz stood on the side and confused people about the fact that every Republican agrees. He said if you don’t agree with my tactic and with the specific structure of my idea, you’re bad. He said if the House would simply pass the bill with defunding he would force the Senate to act. He would lead this grass-roots movement that would get Democrats to change their mind. So the House passed it, it went to the Senate, and Ted Cruz said, oh, we don’t have the votes over here. And I can’t find the e-mails or ads targeting Democrats to support it. Cruz said he would deliver the votes and he didn’t deliver any Democratic votes. He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away.

So then the House said, breaking completely with Cruz because Cruz thinks if you’re not defunding the whole thing it’s treason, that there’s delay. There’s getting rid of medical device taxes. They’ve done a series of things to hold together Republicans and break with Cruz. But because we started with the Cruz approach this got to the shutdown.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/02/grover-norquist-ted-cruz-pushed-house-republicans-into-traffic-and-wandered-away/?hpid=z1

[Stealhead]

Not necessary: only an angled blade with beveling (endorsed by Louie XVI himself) is sufficient gravity being the enemy; A haircut was found to be necessary however to prevent dulling the 'National Razor'. I've often pondered what Louie's thoughts on beveling were as he (painlessly) pondered from inside the (gooey) wicker basket...as a severed head does not immediately expire till oxygen deprivation takes effect (approx. 3-4 minutes). On occasion victims were immediately yanked from the basket and asked to blink as long as possible while being timed for science of course...it was the Age of Enlightenment. Hence the humane, beveled form of execution in the first place...skilled headsmen having come into short supply! No tipping required either!:know::haha::dead:

:hmmm: I must question the medical accuracy of that.

I think several seconds at most is more plausible.Hard to say for sure though and that would be bad enough I think.

Once on a TDY to a Saudi airbase we got invited to watch a beheading I passed some guys went they where sorry to have gone after the fact.Over there they use a sword and families pay for thier kin to go first whilst the blade is most sharp.I understand that Saudi headsman are very well trained.At this one event my cohorts witnessed the last guy took more than one swing(*).They did not show off the heads though they took them(bodies and heads) away to be prepped for Muslim burial.

*according to the linked article this causes more blood loose and is in fact more likely to cause rapid death so maybe you want to be the last guy not the first.

An interesting read on the subject;Anyway seems that it is possible for 30 or 40 seconds based on the one or two known human experiments(last one in 1905)though if it was just nerves or actual consiuos not is not known for sure.Only in more modern times they tested on rats with an EEG and they showed activity for up to 4 seconds after the close shave.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/lucid-decapitation.htm

[TarJak]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-03/lockyer-fiscal-genie/4994972

Not very good options for either party according to this analysis.

[Ducimus]

The more Rand Paul opens his mouth, the more I like the man.

Rand Paul: Can't we all just get along? (http://video.foxnews.com/v/2715230363001/rand-paul-cant-we-all-just-get-along/)
Kentucky senator sounds off on increasingly bitter battle over ObamaCare and the partial suspension of government services, and his unconventional ideas...

[Dread Knot]

Couldn't we just replace the individuals in both houses of Congress with roving packs of Howler Monkeys?

The debates would make more sense and the place is already a zoo.

[Bilge_Rat]

Day three:


http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8610/dtru.jpg

[Oberon]

Couldn't we just replace the individuals in both houses of Congress with roving packs of Howler Monkeys?

The debates would make more sense and the place is already a zoo.

We did a similar thing a while ago:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2461/3629880140_1b23972ea2_z.jpg

Banksy at his finest. :up:

[Penguin]

Upcoming shutdown?
Yeah, let's spend 5 billion bucks on weapon contractors the day before: http://killerapps.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/10/01/on_the_eve_of_the_government_shutdown_the_pentagon _spent_billions_on_weapons
:nope:

[Dread Knot]

We did a similar thing a while ago:

Banksy at his finest. :up:

I've already got my new congressman picked out. :cool:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/28/article-2150936-135482CB000005DC-95_634x469.jpg

[nikimcbee]

So is this still going on? Not even paying attention to it. I guess it give the news media something to do. meh.

[AVGWarhawk]

So is this still going on? Not even paying attention to it. I guess it give the news media something to do. meh.

Yep, still going on. Almost cancelled the Army Navy game in Annapolis though. But priorities being what they are in America, money was found to let the game go on! :shifty:


This is all political nonsense and needless from both side. :down:

[Aktungbby]

:hmmm: I must question the medical accuracy of that.

I think several seconds at most is more plausible.Hard to say for sure though and that would be bad enough I think.

Once on a TDY to a Saudi airbase we got invited to watch a beheading I passed some guys went they where sorry to have gone after the fact.Over there they use a sword and families pay for thier kin to go first whilst the blade is most sharp.

*according to the linked article this causes more blood loose and is in fact more likely to cause rapid death so maybe you want to be the last guy not the first.

An interesting read on the subject;Anyway seems that it is possible for 30 or 40 seconds based on the one or two known human experiments(last one in 1905)though if it was just nerves or actual consiuos not is not known for sure.Only in more modern times they tested on rats with an EEG and they showed activity for up to 4 seconds after the close shave.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/lucid-decapitation.htm
The heathens! tipping still required and you were 'honored' as most infidels are not generally allowed to view such executions( bad PR):salute:

[Mr Quatro]

Have you noticed the media reporting on the big shut down?

They are stirring it up big time, they are using both sides against each other, they are frowning and laughing and making gestures on who to blame.

In between it all are commercial trying to sell you something, just like when a big hurricane or flood or fire is in the news they say, "we'll be right back after this message" :yep:

The national news, the on all the time news of CNN and even the late night talk shows are all playing this to the hilt.

Spells money, money, money being made off keeping you tuned in ... my Samsung 40" lcd has a hdmi slot for dish satellite, Blu-ray and one left for my PC video card ...

I just leave it on CNN and then push the PC button and when I go back to dish to check I can slew the content backwards skipping all of the commercials a the same time.

Plus there is no way that I believe this shut down is costing $800 million dollars a day ... no way.

What about all of the money it saves too and what about all of the poor government workers on tv saying they are just one paycheck away from the poor house?

If they are just one paycheck away from the poor house they surely can't afford "obamacare" too.

[AVGWarhawk]

The media has nothing better to do. Apparently Capitol Hill has nothing better to do either. :shifty:

I love the name calling the Dems throw at the Repubs.
Extortionists
Hostage takers
Terrorists
Saboteurs
Anarchists
Arsonists
Murderers

Two years ago the voting public put the Republicans in the House to fight Obamacare. Did the Dems forget this? Is this some sort of surprise? The media apparently has. But hey, it's ratings!

[Tchocky]

That argument makes no sense, AVG.


In terms of the popular vote, there were over a million more votes for House Democrats than Republicans.

Also there was a presidential election between one guy who promised to repeal the ACA on his first day, and someone who would fight to keep it. And we all remember the inauguration of President Romney.

Point is - you can't take one electoral outcome and ignore the others.

It's especially hypocritical to ask if Democratic politicians have forgotten the election - while you're ignoring large chunks of it yourself.

[Mr Quatro]

Two years ago the voting public put the Republicans in the House to fight Obamacare. Did the Dems forget this? Is this some sort of surprise? The media apparently has. But hey, it's ratings!

Guess what happens in just five (5) more weeks?

Elections is what happens and if the Senate loses their majority the new members won't be voting till January or at the earliest after the holidays recess, which is why it is even more important to defeat "obamacare" before it can get a good head start, because after it gets going it's going to be hard to stop.

The public will be pulled apart to stop it by then saying, "WTH"

People in poor health I feel sorry for you, but I would rather feel sorry for you now than after a mis-managed healthcare bill gets enacted hurting the majority with more paperwork and all of the other problems this huge monstrosity of a bill will create. :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

That argument makes no sense, AVG.


In terms of the popular vote, there were over a million more votes for House Democrats than Republicans.

Also there was a presidential election between one guy who promised to repeal the ACA on his first day, and someone who would fight to keep it. And we all remember the inauguration of President Romney.

Point is - you can't take one electoral outcome and ignore the others.

It's especially hypocritical to ask if Democratic politicians have forgotten the election - while you're ignoring large chunks of it yourself.

Sure.......

Approximately 82.5 million people voted.[2] The Democratic Party suffered massive defeats in many national and state level elections, with many seats switching to Republican Party control. The Republican Party gained 63 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives, recapturing the majority, and making it the largest seat change since 1948 and the largest for any midterm election since the 1938 midterm elections. The Republicans gained six seats in the U.S. Senate, expanding its minority, and also gained 680 seats in state legislative races,[3][4][5] to break the previous majority record of 628 set by Democrats in the post-Watergate elections of 1974.[5] This left Republicans in control of 25 state legislatures, compared to the 15 still controlled by Democrats. After the election, Republicans took control of 29 of the 50 State Governorships.

Voters were also motivated for and against the sweeping reforms of the health care system enacted by Democrats in 2010, as well as concerns over tax rates and record deficits

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_elections,_2010


Repubs were put in to stop irresponsible spending among other things. The 2010 elections were not about a Presidential position. Fact is, the Repubs are in there for a reason. I can ignore the others.

[Tchocky]

Pardon me for what may be a stupid question - but wasn't the best time to fight the ACA when it was up for a vote?

Or voting for the guy who said he'd repeal it?

I'm just saying these were better days to fight. Not now, when the President won't sign a repeal, the Senate won't pass it, and 3/4 of the country opposes shutting down the government in order to hack at the ACA?

[AVGWarhawk]

Pardon me for what may be a stupid question - but wasn't the best time to fight the ACA when it was up for a vote?

Or voting for the guy who said he'd repeal it?

I'm just saying these were better days to fight. Not now, when the President won't sign a repeal, the Senate won't pass it, and 3/4 of the country opposes shutting down the government in order to hack at the ACA?

If I'm not mistaken the GOP has been asking for a repeal for quite sometime(42 times). The Dems have closed ears then and still today.

[Ducimus]

Have you noticed the media reporting on the big shut down?

Oh yes. I'll check both left and right wing news sources just to see what both are portraying.

They are stirring it up big time, they are using both sides against each other, they are frowning and laughing and making gestures on who to blame.

Of course! It's what we call the news. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2EPKKVrqI)

I just leave it on CNN

I used to rely on just CNN but no longer. I find they are just as biased as foxnews, only they are much more subtle about it. On that note, nowadays ill look at both, take notes of how either is portraying things, then make my own decision based on the comparison.

[Bilge_Rat]

If I'm not mistaken the GOP has been asking for a repeal for quite sometime(42 times). The Dems have closed ears then and still today.

That's not his point. If the american voters really wanted to repeal ACA, they could have voted in Romney, voted in a GOP majority in the Senate, even voted in a majority for the GOP house (1.7 million more votes for Dem candidates for the House than GOP candidates in '12), etc., etc...

[Webster]

That's not his point. If the american voters really wanted to repeal ACA, they could have voted in Romney, voted in a GOP majority in the Senate, even voted in a majority for the GOP house (1.7 million more votes for Dem candidates for the House than GOP candidates in '12), etc., etc...

they already had a majority in the house of rep since the 2010 elections where republicans were voted in and set a record for the largest republican victory EVER RECORDED since the civil war and in the last election they did vote in a bigger majority for the GOP house but it meant nothing since they didn't get enough seats in the senate to have any say in what bills get voted on there.

the American voters do want to repeal Obamacare but they cant because they are lazy and greedy and want get a government check every month and if they vote republican they might not get that free government check every month and have to go find a job.

I see people every day laughing because they get paid not to work.

if you lose your job and are depressed you get full disability because of depression and if you get a job you lose your disability so they sit home and watch soap operas all day collecting disability and food stamps.

caring for people is one thing and helping those in need is great but you need to make sure those getting help really need it.

this dependency on a government check means they have an incentive not to change the system so the free gravy train never stops.

the republicans allowed government handouts to get too far out of hand and the dems were laughing as they knew it meant no one would ever vote against free money so they would never lose power.

for these reasons and those reasons alone we have obamacare today

oh and everyone should stop calling it ACA because that's just a lie there is nothing that is affordable in the affordable care act. its not affordable, everyone will be denied all but the most basic care, and the government doesn't care if you live or die as in the case of that poor little girl Cathleen sevilias denied a lung transplant because the cost analysis chart said it didn't have good odds of success vs the cost risk.

thank god private donors found a way to pay for it to save the girls life :sunny: that's your example of the oft denied government death panels already at work :nope:

[Oberon]

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1385898_627378303951385_1212827081_n.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

That's not his point. If the american voters really wanted to repeal ACA, they could have voted in Romney, voted in a GOP majority in the Senate, even voted in a majority for the GOP house (1.7 million more votes for Dem candidates for the House than GOP candidates in '12), etc., etc...

Obamacare is the exact replica of Romnycare sir. Kind of hard to win over votes stating you will repeal Obamacare when you have Romnycare in your own state.

[Tchocky]

Nevertheless, his explicit promise was to repeal it on day one. That he lost the election is relevant.

You can't use the House results to claim what the American people want while disregarding other election results.

[Oberon]

Also, people saying about the news stirring things up and playing both sides off against each other can't help but remind me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IEwBrJzhlg

[AVGWarhawk]

Nevertheless, his explicit promise was to repeal it on day one. That he lost the election is relevant.

You can't use the House results to claim what the American people want while disregarding other election results.

Well then what can we claim on the House results? :hmmm:

[Tchocky]

You can claim that the elections produced mixed messages. That's about it. Lawmakers have to do their own thinking instead of dueling mandates which gets you precisely nowhere.

It's just like anything else - if the situation can be boiled down to a single sentence that blames one faction - then your sentence is almost certainly wrong.

One factor that skews the House elections in particular is increased gerrymandering since the 2010 redistricting. This is how you get a GOP majority out of a Democratic popular vote victory.

Almost none of the GOP House members represent a district won by Obama. They have little reason to compromise because their safe-seat constituents don't want them to.

You can't say it's obvious that the American people don't want the ACA to go ahead - as some are saying here.

[Sailor Steve]

I used to rely on just CNN but no longer. I find they are just as biased as foxnews, only they are much more subtle about it.
People always give Fox grief for calling themselves "fair and balanced", but that's why they did it in the first place. They were the only service providing an alternative to CNN and friends.

[Webster]

Nevertheless, his explicit promise was to repeal it on day one. That he lost the election is relevant.

You can't use the House results to claim what the American people want while disregarding other election results.

campaign promises are irrelevant and he cant repeal anything if he wanted to unless the legislation to do that passed through the house and senate in the form of a bill so he could sign it.


the senate has 100 senators but based on the last roll call numbers the house has 516 members so it is the senate that does not accurately represent the will of the people. not to mention they get elected for 6 year terms so you rarely get a chance to throw those bums out because of it. I think it was only around 18 senators that were involved in the 2010 elections, hardly a chance to make any wholesale changes but the republicans did pick up enough seats to make some dems very nervous about what may happen in 2014.


it is the senate that doesn't represent the will of the people since it is a very small number of elected representatives who are "supposed to" represent our views but never do.

in fact it is the house of representatives that shows the greatest will of the peoples intentions from voting because they only serve 2 or 4 year terms even if those who get elected often don't vote as they promise to do when they wanted to get elected.

[Webster]

One factor that skews the House elections in particular is increased gerrymandering since the 2010 redistricting. This is how you get a GOP majority out of a Democratic popular vote victory.

Almost none of the GOP House members represent a district won by Obama. They have little reason to compromise because their safe-seat constituents don't want them to.



its your democrat leaders who invented and installed redistricting in the first place because they were losing too many seats in congress so they invented it to redraw the lines to favor democrats in the name of "fair representation of minorities" claiming their voice and votes were being canceled out by the majority so they weren't fairly represented.

when the republican governors got elected they got the ability to redraw the lines the way they saw fit to so your side invented the cheating now you want to cry about it. when republicans were elected in vast numbers all across America in the 2010 elections this changed who got to draw those lines so in some states they were redrawn in a fair way and in others they were drawn to favor republicans.

I actually agree its an abomination to draw squiggly lines all over like a tetris puzzle but you cant have it only your way. get rid of it altogether and follow the lines on the map to make even sided districts in every state.

[Tchocky]

My side?

Not an American.

My point overall is that electoral results are one way to look at the situation. It's important to see the limitations and caveats though, which is why I jumped in on what AVG said.

[Mr Quatro]

My side?

Not an American.

but you have lived here, gone to school here, worked here and surely you must have loved it here for you have a lot to say about here :up:

[Webster]

My side?

Not an American.



if you aren't an American they why do you spend so much time and effort defending them :/\\!!

[Stealhead]

The heathens! tipping still required and you were 'honored' as most infidels are not generally allowed to view such executions( bad PR):salute:

Instead of the beheading shin dig I went some others to an Al Baik restaurant it's kida like halal KFC only it tastes much better than KFC.

These where Royal Saudi Air Force pilots that invited us because they had previously discussed the death penalty with us so they wanted us to see it for real and see if that effected our opinion.They where fairly westernized and also liked booze.

[Tchocky]

I find this stuff interesting. I find the label "socialist" for the Democrats even more interesting.


Edit - interesting meaning wrong, naturally.

[Webster]

I find this stuff interesting. I find the label "socialist" for the Democrats even more interesting.


Edit - interesting meaning wrong, naturally.

ok, so your just here to troll.

its a free country

[Ducimus]

I just saw an interesting post on the comments section on a local news source here in Utah. It seemed well stated enough that I thought i'd repost it here.

Again, not my words, I just thought it an interesting read:

Actually, we the people are to blame.

On the one hand, despite round agreement that incumbents become a problem, we tend to re-elect incumbents handily, and when we don't (Mike Lee ousting Bennett, Chafetz winning over Cannon), too many act as if the sky is falling and massive rule changes are needed.

On the other hand, the two parties are simply representing a deeply divided nation.

There are those who sincerely believe that government should guarantee to every citizen free healthcare. Whether they call this "single payer" or "socialized" or anything else, they believe government should guarantee free health care, which would have to be paid for by taxpayers at large. This same group believes that elective abortion on demand is a near absolute right and must be included in said free coverage. They tend to believe that private ownership of guns is a bad idea and should be greatly curtailed and what remains heavily taxed and regulated. They tend to believe that religion causes problems and should be pushed out of the public sphere and out of business practices, and that government must ensure that employers treat employees kindly, These folks believe homosexual couples must be given full marriage benefits, or that government recognition of marriage should end entirely.

On the other side are those who believe just as sincerely that obtaining and providing healthcare are private matters in which government involvement must be minimized. They believe that abortion is a gross violation of the rights of the unborn and so should be legally limited to a few extreme cases such as rape, incest, or grave risk to life of the mother; and that nobody should ever be forced to participate in or fund an abortion in any way (direct or indirect) contrary to conscience. They believe that private ownership of firearms is not only a constitutionally enumerated right on equal footing with freedoms of the press, speech, and right to an attorney, but that it is essential to the maintenance of a free society and so must be as protected from regulation and taxes as are the other enumerated rights. They believe that religion plays a key role in our society and that our laws must protect not only freedom to believe and to worship in a church or home, but also must protect peaceful religious expression in the public sphere, in how business is conducted, and so on. They believe that marriage is a union of a man and a woman and that homosexual conduct is not something government or society should encourage, condone, nor celebrate. They believe that within limits of worker safety, employers and employees should be free to negotiate for mutually agreeable terms--or to part ways peacefully--without government mandates.

These are fundamentally incompatible views of the role of government, and indeed, even the very nature of society.

An honest, mature man will recognize and concede that neither side is evil; both hold their views as sincerely believing they will lead to the best society in which to live.

But they are incompatible. There is very little room for either side to "compromise" with the other.

For those who want an absolute guarantee of free medical care, the ACA is nearly as offensive as it is to those who want government out of health care almost entirely.

Those who view abortion as a right are as offended by limits on late term abortion as are those opposed to abortion by mandates to pay for abortion via tax money or through insurance policies.

We are a people divided.

And our government reflects that.

Good luck even proposing, much less implementing any workable solutions.

[Tchocky]

Hardly.

Oh by the way your post doesn't make any sense since you edited it.

[Tribesman]

if you aren't an American they why do you spend so much time and effort defending them :/\\!!
On this subject perhaps he is just pissed at all those who jump on a plane to come over here clogging up the system by visiting a hospital as it works out cheaper and quicker than the bloated system you had with its crazy premiums, high levels of denials and astronomical deductions:hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

.They where fairly westernized and also liked booze.
Yup, occasionally I guard a Persian New Year event and an upscale mosque in the Bay area. My Iranian buddies and I like to four-wheel and goat hunt and the Johnny Walker(red) flows. Something rubs off as, occasionally, I dream in Farsi and I actually understand what they're saying!!! The new years events are generally attended by demonstrations against the Shah- now against the Mullah of choice. Just to cover my eternal butt, I do the local temple too on the high holidays with equally attendant antisemetic issues. Prefer Islam-they pay cash under the table, augmenting my now endangerd social security due to the shutdown in DC. Nice Skyraider sig by the by, my old boss drove 'em in Nam. Can't beat 'em for time on target.:rock:

[Platapus]

We just got told that we will be furloughed. I have a choice for up to the next two weeks. Leave without pay or I can use my vacation time, if I have enough. I have not taken a vacation in 7 years, now I have to burn all my leave (NPOs don't get a lot of leave) because the petulant children congress can't do their job.

Guess there won't be any time off for any of the holidays. But I am sure congress will be able to take time off this holiday season.

Marvelous :nope:

I hope it is worth it congress. I will be thinking about you in the next elections.

Best wishes from just a guy trying to support his country.

[Aktungbby]

We just got told that we will be furloughed. I have a choice for up to the next two weeks. Leave without pay or I can use my vacation time, if I have enough. I have not taken a vacation in 7 years, now I have to burn all my leave (NPOs don't get a lot of leave) because the petulant children congress can't do their job.

Guess there won't be any time off for any of the holidays. But I am sure congress will be able to take time off this holiday season.

Marvelous :nope:

I hope it is worth it congress. I will be thinking about you in the next elections.

Best wishes from just a guy trying to support his country.
The straight poop from one who knows!:rock::hulk:

[Stealhead]

Yup, occasionally I guard a Persian New Year event and an upscale mosque in the Bay area. My Iranian buddies and I like to four-wheel and goat hunt and the Johnny Walker(red) flows. Something rubs off as, occasionally, I dream in Farsi and I actually understand what they're saying!!! The new years events are generally attended by demonstrations against the Shah- now against the Mullah of choice. Just to cover my eternal butt, I do the local temple too on the high holidays with equally attendant antisemetic issues. Prefer Islam-they pay cash under the table, augmenting my now endangerd social security due to the shutdown in DC. Nice Skyraider sig by the by, my old boss drove 'em in Nam. Can't beat 'em for time on target.:rock:

You could talk to my mother and grandmother then in Farsi.Where these friends Lur by any chance? Course they left before the whole mess in 1979 my father did some contract work there for Bell Helicopter.

Yes I have always loved the Skyraider.They had some times over Laos i think I read some place that just the USAF lost 123 A-1 pilots in Nam course they had very hazardous jobs worth it though to save the skins of ground powders and downed airmen.

[Bubblehead1980]

We just got told that we will be furloughed. I have a choice for up to the next two weeks. Leave without pay or I can use my vacation time, if I have enough. I have not taken a vacation in 7 years, now I have to burn all my leave (NPOs don't get a lot of leave) because the petulant children congress can't do their job.

Guess there won't be any time off for any of the holidays. But I am sure congress will be able to take time off this holiday season.

Marvelous :nope:

I hope it is worth it congress. I will be thinking about you in the next elections.

Best wishes from just a guy trying to support his country.


Blame Obama and the Dems for refusing to to listen to the American people and accept the reasonable compromise offers put forth.

[Tchocky]

He's not stupid.

[razark]

We just got told that we will be furloughed. I have a choice for up to the next two weeks. Leave without pay or I can use my vacation time, if I have enough.
Sorry to hear that. My company is letting us take an extra 24 hours of leave if we burn through our accrued time.

Guess there won't be any time off for any of the holidays. But I am sure congress will be able to take time off this holiday season.
There's no need to grumble about it. Haven't you seen how many of them are giving up their paychecks? They're in the same boat as us.

[Mr Quatro]

Yes I have always loved the Skyraider.They had some times over Laos i think I read some place that just the USAF lost 123 A-1 pilots in Nam course they had very hazardous jobs worth it though to save the skins of ground powders and downed airmen.

I think a USN Skyraider shot down a mig back in the old days of Vietnam, but back to "obamacare".

This is my question, "Does he really care"?

[TarJak]

No you want the Obama care thread. This is also not the Skyraider is a nice ride thread. Please keep OT.:O:

[Platapus]

Pardon me for what may be a stupid question - but wasn't the best time to fight the ACA when it was up for a vote?

Or voting for the guy who said he'd repeal it?

I'm just saying these were better days to fight. Not now, when the President won't sign a repeal, the Senate won't pass it, and 3/4 of the country opposes shutting down the government in order to hack at the ACA?

Not a stupid question at all.

Congress has two completely separate but related authorities when it comes to legislation.

1. Congress drafts, debates, writes, and approves legislation.
2. Congress appropriates funding needed to enact the legislation.

The success of the first does not mandate the second.

Congress is well within their rights to approve the AHA but not fund it. Not saying that is right or even a good thing to do, but it is legal according to the rules of congress.

Remember Kerry with his voting for something before he voted against it? This was what he was talking about. A senator can vote for a law and then vote against funding it. Not all that uncommon.

Since the GOP can't get rid of the ACA as that would require a vote from both houses, they are attacking it from a funding standpoint. All funding bills must originate from the House (article 7 section 1).

The executive branch can not spend any money that has not been appropriated by the congress. Only congress has the authority to borrow money or to spend money it does not have.

"best time to fight the ACA when it was up for a vote?"

Yes it is, and yes it was fought. It was the 111th congress that signed the ACA into law. That was during a time when the democratic party held majorities in both the Senate and the House. The GOP was simply outvoted.

Such is life when you have a representative form of government.

Now that the GOP has a majority in the House, they are enacting their political revenge.

This is what happens when there is a switch in majorities in congress. The new party in power proclaims that what the former party in power did was wrong and they feel they have a right to change things. Happens all the time.

Fortunately/unfortunately, the house controls the spending bills.

It is important to remember that the president can only ask congress to consider things, the president never tells congress. :yep:

We can emotionally accuse congress of not doing their job. But in actuality, they are doing exactly their job.

Some may agree with the house, some may disagree with the house. But the basis of our representative government is that the majority of the representatives elected by the people, get to decide.

The fact of the matter is that the GOP has a majority in the House.

My biggest gripe is that the Speaker is preventing a bill to be voted upon. I think it is scandalous that one person can prevent a vote -- normally the cornerstone of democracy. I wish that the House rules would allow the members to override a vote infringement action on the part of the speaker.

But the house makes the house rules. And since both parties take advantage of the rules, neither side is eager to change the rules.

[Aktungbby]

You could talk to my mother and grandmother then in Farsi.Where these friends Lur by any chance? Course they left before the whole mess in 1979 my father did some contract work there for Bell Helicopter.


I believe they are actually ethnic Kurds who are discriminated against in Iran and in Turkey. They engage in pecan and marble imports still ongoing today. :hmmm:

[Armistead]

This is all about upcoming elections, political moves. Obvious the GOP thinks it will work to their advantage in the coming ad wars, hoping to knock off a few Dems. So what if they ruin everyones vacation, hurt workers, it doesn't effect them.

My wife and I planned a few months ago to go to Gettysburg this weekend. We had to plan our business, etc., now, we're not going.
So we only spend a few thousand, motels, eating, a lil shopping, but that hurts business.

You can see how serious it can be for towns that thrive on national parks if this continues.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/10/gettysburg_businesses_fear_imp.html

[Ducimus]

This is all about upcoming elections, political moves. Obvious the GOP thinks it will work to their advantage in the coming ad wars, hoping to knock off a few Dems. So what if they ruin everyones vacation, hurt workers, it doesn't effect them.


If that is indeed the case, I think it's going to backfire on them. Even if it's not the case, it will probably backfire on them anyway. Which i see is a warning sign of things to come. As platypus noted,

"best time to fight the ACA when it was up for a vote?"

Yes it is, and yes it was fought. It was the 111th congress that signed the ACA into law. That was during a time when the democratic party held majorities in both the Senate and the House. The GOP was simply outvoted.

God only knows what legislation we'll see ramrodded in the future. Though I can make some educated guesses that it will involve reducing individual liberties and increases government oversight into all aspects of life.

[Armistead]

If that is indeed the case, I think it's going to backfire on them. Even if it's not the case, it will probably backfire on them anyway. Which i see is a warning sign of things to come. As platypus noted,



God only knows what legislation we'll see ramrodded in the future. Though I can make some educated guesses that it will involve reducing individual liberties and increases government oversight into all aspects of life.

I agree it was a bad move, when someone is about to hang themselves, you don't take the noose away and put it around your own neck. The Obamacare train has arrived, it's here and not going away. The best that can be done is fix the mess it creates over the upcoming years. The Dems should be hanged for passing a bill that has so much crap in it that will only cost billions more to fix.

You know the old saying "don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining."
Obamacare cetainly doesn't smell like sweet rain.

[Bilge_Rat]

Day 4:

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/8393/xvaq.gif

[TarJak]

Obama will miss the APEC Summit next week to keep focus on the shut down.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-04/obama-withdraws-from-apec-summit/4999006

As he should.

[Betonov]

Keep the cartoons coming Bilge Rat :D

[Ducimus]

I agree it was a bad move, when someone is about to hang themselves, you don't take the noose away and put it around your own neck. The Obamacare train has arrived, it's here and not going away. The best that can be done is fix the mess it creates over the upcoming years. The Dems should be hanged for passing a bill that has so much crap in it that will only cost billions more to fix.

You know the old saying "don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining."
Obamacare cetainly doesn't smell like sweet rain.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Obamacare at the moment to really say much about it; which is why for the most part, i didn't get into deep discussion in the Obamacare thread, aside from posting a video I thought was funny. I found said video while searching for a concise explanation as to everything obamacare entails. Unfortuantely, your not going to find that. All Information is blatantly slanted left or right.

However, this much I do know. Anything that Obama does is suspect. There are so many documented lies coming from him, it's unbelievable. You'll find 14 minute compilation videos about his blatant lies and flip flops. I think my favorite aside form him not wanting peoples guns, is the syria red line. That was such a blatant attempt to dodge responsibility for his own words, that I could not believe he would stand up in front of the world and attempt it. These lies and flip flops aren't a matter of opinion, they are fact. The video camera is non partisan and does not lie. There's plenty of video clips taken in context of what he was saying then, and what he's saying now, and they are opposite. My point being, the man has no credibility - at all.

I liken it to the classic case of the police detective who got caught in a lie, or took some expedient shortcuts in a case, and sent an innocent man to prison. What happens afterwords? ALL his cases are compromised and suspect because his integrity has been compromised. I hold integrity to a high regard. If you don't have integrity, you've got nothing. I don't care how much money you have in your bank account. If people cannot believe what you say, you have nothing. No amount of money will make an honest man out of a liar.

[Bilge_Rat]

Keep the cartoons coming Bilge Rat :D

friday bonus 'toon:

http://imageshack.us/a/img513/5006/rmhe.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

I just saw an interesting post on the comments section on a local news source here in Utah. It seemed well stated enough that I thought i'd repost it here.

Again, not my words, I just thought it an interesting read:

Nice article. I wish we could divide the country into 2 equal halves, and have the homeless, the entitlement fans, and gun control nuts in one side, and the religious nuts, pro gunners, and carry your own weight advocates have the other.

[AVGWarhawk]

I agree it was a bad move, when someone is about to hang themselves, you don't take the noose away and put it around your own neck. The Obamacare train has arrived, it's here and not going away. The best that can be done is fix the mess it creates over the upcoming years. The Dems should be hanged for passing a bill that has so much crap in it that will only cost billions more to fix.

You know the old saying "don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining."
Obamacare cetainly doesn't smell like sweet rain.

The ACA should go on. Let it fail. Other laws have failed in the past.

[Stealhead]

Nice article. I wish we could divide the country into 2 equal halves, and have the homeless, the entitlement fans, and gun control nuts in one side, and the religious nuts, pro gunners, and carry your own weight advocates have the other.


Where does everyone else go then?

[AVGWarhawk]

Where does everyone else go then?

Mexico.

[Oberon]

Mexico.

Or Canada. :hmmm:

Anyway, didn't you guys try that before? Back in the 1860s...

[Ducimus]

Where does everyone else go then?

Your home is your home. Anyone who values everything that home is may have to pick a side.

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyway, didn't you guys try that before? Back in the 1860s...

Yes, it was a split decision.

[Dowly]

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/4/1/7/1/2/3/rimshot-83965485661.jpeg

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm here to 5. Try the veal.

[Webster]

My biggest gripe is that the Speaker is preventing a bill to be voted upon. I think it is scandalous that one person can prevent a vote -- normally the cornerstone of democracy. I wish that the House rules would allow the members to override a vote infringement action on the part of the speaker.

But the house makes the house rules. And since both parties take advantage of the rules, neither side is eager to change the rules.

you cant single out the house for that, harry reid in the senate has refused to bring upwards of 200 bills passed by the house and sent to the senate floor for a vote. yes around 50 of those are repealing obamacare but it should still be voted on and passed or thrown out but not left in limbo forever. they also, in violation of the constitution, haven't produced a budget for the government in over 4 years and that is the only reason they must do these continuing resolutions to operate off the last budget passed during obamas first year where spending levels rose a record 500% over the record setting new spending in bush's last year with the war and all the bailouts.

thew house does the same thing as well so that should change but not just for one side


there should be a mandated time (call it 2-3 months so they have time for all their silly commities to change it) that any bill brought to the floor in the house floor or the senate floor MUST be brought to a full vote no matter how much the majority party doesn't like or want it to be voted on. that would be better government and politicians would have to record their vote on issues instead of avoiding them.

[Stealhead]

Your home is your home. Anyone who values everything that home is may have to pick a side.

Well I pick neither side so I recon that makes me un American.If I agree with neither there is no benefit to me and it would mean that if the two sides Neal mentioned where the only option if either win I loose.

In that case I'd find a new home rather than kneel to one of two sides that I do not agree with.Because a completely liberal state or a completely conservative state no dice.

[Ducimus]

Well I pick neither side so I recon that makes me un American.If I agree with neither there is no benefit to me and it would mean that if the two sides Neal mentioned where the only option if either win I loose.

In that case I'd find a new home rather than kneel to one of two sides that I do not agree with.Because a completely liberal state or a completely conservative state no dice.

Unamerican? IMO what home is by name is irrelevant. America, Canada, Germany, Japan, it doesn't matter. Home to me, is everything you know and love. It's your friends, your family, your property, your neighbors, your community. It's also your ability to come and go as you please and to make your own choices for yourself. It is also, IMO, the only thing in this world worth fighting for. Home isn't always perfect, but in the end it's still home, and you have to make a stand somewhere.

Now on liberal vs conservative state, I think it's obvious I've already made that choice, though not by design. In fact I live in the most conservative county, in the most conservative state. However, personally, I'm not big on religion, I could care less about abortion, gay marriage, and all the other big social hot topics of the day that Left or Right tend to get butt hurt over. To me, it's all small stuff when compared to your enumerated rights, and your ability to live your life how you see fit. Needless to say, I don't sweat the small stuff.

[Mr Quatro]

you cant single out the house for that, harry reid in the senate has refused to bring upwards of 200 bills passed by the house and sent to the senate floor for a vote. yes around 50 of those are repealing obamacare but it should still be voted on and passed or thrown out but not left in limbo forever. they also, in violation of the constitution, haven't produced a budget for the government in over 4 years and that is the only reason they must do these continuing resolutions to operate off the last budget passed during obamas first year where spending levels rose a record 500% over the record setting new spending in bush's last year with the war and all the bailouts.

thew house does the same thing as well so that should change but not just for one side


there should be a mandated time (call it 2-3 months so they have time for all their silly commities to change it) that any bill brought to the floor in the house floor or the senate floor MUST be brought to a full vote no matter how much the majority party doesn't like or want it to be voted on. that would be better government and politicians would have to record their vote on issues instead of avoiding them.

Your argument sounds good Webster :yep: I don't have time to look these items up, so I hope your right.

What is demanding a full vote mean? I thought the Senate controlled by Harry Reid, democrat majority leader from Nevada and a Latter Day Saint, passed a bill that just a simple majority of votes now wins, but does your post mean a full vote of every senator would be required?

[Stealhead]

This is real America to me.

Not the crap on 24 hour news or in DC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXD8yOxIPB0

[Armistead]

you cant single out the house for that, harry reid in the senate has refused to bring upwards of 200 bills passed by the house and sent to the senate floor for a vote. yes around 50 of those are repealing obamacare but it should still be voted on and passed or thrown out but not left in limbo forever. they also, in violation of the constitution, haven't produced a budget for the government in over 4 years and that is the only reason they must do these continuing resolutions to operate off the last budget passed during obamas first year where spending levels rose a record 500% over the record setting new spending in bush's last year with the war and all the bailouts.

thew house does the same thing as well so that should change but not just for one side


there should be a mandated time (call it 2-3 months so they have time for all their silly commities to change it) that any bill brought to the floor in the house floor or the senate floor MUST be brought to a full vote no matter how much the majority party doesn't like or want it to be voted on. that would be better government and politicians would have to record their vote on issues instead of avoiding them.

I don't know, man of these votes the outcomes are well known such as the numerous Obamacare bills. It's really a waste of time, except it exposes each voter. Right now all of this is political posturing for the next elections, nothing more.

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24530026

[Wolferz]

The joke's on us. The government has been shut down ever since Obama was sworn in and the GOP started the active filibuster against him.:mad:

[mapuc]

According to the news here. they blame the continuing crisis and the failure in further discussion on a rightwings group named Tea Party Republican

Is this true or is it more behind the story, that meets the eye?

Markus

[Ducimus]

According to the news here. they blame the continuing crisis and the failure in further discussion on a rightwings group named Tea Party Republican

Is this true or is it more behind the story, that meets the eye?

Markus


I think your media is just parroting ours. The majority of our news media is left wing, as such they tend to place blame on the right wing with regularity. That said, I think there is some truth to tea party republican's having blame, but at this point I do not think it is the whole truth.

At this point, i think the entire truth is that our two party system is gridlocked because the Democrats are (from the last i read) stubbornly refusing to compromise or negotiate in the slightest. While the republicans tying in of Obamacare may or may not have been a good idea, they have budged from their previous position three times. Democrats, not one iota.

I've stopped reading the news about this whole ordeal last week, so my knowledge is out of date, but the impression i was left with as of last week was the republicans won't move anymore then they already have, and the democrats won't move at all.

I'm sure the details of situation has changed since last I bothered to keep up with it.

[nikimcbee]

I think your media is just parroting ours. The majority of our news media is left wing, as such they tend to place blame on the right wing with regularity. That said, I think there is some truth to tea party republican's having blame, but at this point I do not think it is the whole truth.

At this point, i think the entire truth is that our two party system is gridlocked because the Democrats are (from the last i read) stubbornly refusing to compromise or negotiate in the slightest. While the republicans tying in of Obamacare may or may not have been a good idea, they have budged from their previous position three times. Democrats, not one iota.

I've stopped reading the news about this whole ordeal last week, so my knowledge is out of date, but the impression i was left with as of last week was the republicans won't move anymore then they already have, and the democrats won't move at all.

I'm sure the details of situation has changed since last I bothered to keep up with it.

Ditto.
I'm not paying attention to this. Is it still going on?

[JU_88]

Not much has changed , its still going on -back and forth, except time is almost up and its getting quite scary now.
Looks like the senate draft is up for vote in the house this afternoon (US time)- if it doesn't go though... I don't know what tomorrow will bring other than the markets nose diving....
But if the US defaults on Thursday or soon there after things will get ugly very quickly and it wont take long for likes of you and me to feel the shockwaves in some form or another.
I'm still just trying to digest the fact that this insane partisan bickering, could well end up hurling the entire developed world back in to recession part 2 or worse, its unbelievable and completely insane.
Its blindingly obvious that the US federal government needs to tighten its belt a notch or trillion, but defaulting is really is no way to go about it.

[nikimcbee]

Not much has changed , its still going on -back and forth, except time is almost up and its getting quite scary now.
Looks like the senate draft is up for vote in the house this afternoon (US time)- if it doesn't go though... I don't know what tomorrow will bring other than the markets nose diving....
But if the US defaults on Thursday or soon there after things will get ugly very quickly and it wont take long for likes of you and me to feel the shockwaves in some form or another.
I'm still just trying to digest the fact that this insane partisan bickering, could well end up hurling the entire developed world back in to recession part 2 or worse, its unbelievable and completely insane.
Its blindingly obvious that the US federal government needs to tighten its belt a notch or trillion, but defaulting is really is no way to go about it.

I'd say, they need to take the scissors to the bamster's credit card.

[Tribesman]

they have budged from their previous position three times. Democrats, not one iota.

they have not budged from their position at all, they started off insisting that to pass a budget motion they would extort something else along with it which is entirely unrelated, they are still insisting on extorting on the unrelated issue before they will deal with the budget.
If some low life scammer stopped you on the street demanding that you give him $100 to him buy new shoes before you can continue down the street he is not really budging from his previous dumb position if he drops it to $50 then $25, its still just a nonsense scheme which has no place in your passage down the road.

[Armistead]

What makes me mad is the media saying America voted for Obamacare. Just compare what Obamacare was during the election and what it is now. America didn't vote for all the exemptions, taxes, lies and cost increases.

Fix it before implementation or scrap it.

[JU_88]

I'd say, they need to take the scissors to the bamster's credit card.

yeah but at what cost? risking a default of the worlds largest economy and issuer of the worlds reserve currency?
Talk about cut of your nose to spite your face.... That's not cutting up a credit card, thats pulling the plug out of America and the global economy

I don't know how Obama care is being funded, and I REALLY don't get the thinking behind any new expenditure when you are already 16+ trillion in the red.
But IMO Anyone still obsessing about Obama care or any other partisan garbage at this stage of the game could really use slap in the face.... with a chair. (given what is at stake here)

I'm not saying its best to just kick the can down the road indefinitely. Sure you need to pick the can up and fix it, but kicking it over the edge of the cliff will be a disaster.
The debt ceiling needs go up and then controlled cuts need to be made, that is the only sensible option in my mind.

[Rockstar]

Maybe in order to understand politics, we have to look at the word itself: "Politics". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "Poli" and "tics". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is politics.

[Armistead]

yeah but at what cost? risking a default of the worlds largest economy and issuer of the worlds reserve currency?
Talk about cut of your nose to spite your face....

I don't know how Obama care is being funded, and I REALLY don't get the thinking behind any increased expenditure when you are already 16+ trillion in the red.
But IMO Anyone still obsessing about Obama care or any other partisan garbage at this stage of the game could really use slap in the face.... with a chair. (given what is at stake here)

I'm not saying its best to just kick the can down the road indefinitely. Sure you need to pick the can up and fix it, but kicking it over the edge of the cliff will be a disaster.
The debt ceiling needs go up and then controlled cuts need to be made, that is the only sensible option in my mind.

The problem is Obamacare will be a big economic disaster for the US in it's present form. The other problem is we always kick the can and will continue to do so. Obama has no give as of yet.

No doubt this is a political chess game setting up the next election cycles. In reality we know neither party will fix the debt.

If the Tea Party wasn't full of a bunch of radical religious nuts, they would grow and take over.

[Oberon]

The most annoying thing is that one countries SNAFU is going to screw with half the planets economy. :/\\!! Eh, well, that's how it goes.
The actual default will fall between Thursday and the 1st November, so it wouldn't be immediately on Thursday, but the dominos would begin to fall.
However, from what rumours I'm hearing coming out of Washington, the Republicans are close to collapse, and when that happens, boy is the mud going to be slung between the Tea Party types and the rest of the GOP.

[Tribesman]

What makes me mad is the media saying America voted for Obamacare. Just compare what Obamacare was during the election and what it is now. America didn't vote for all the exemptions, taxes, lies and cost increases.

Can you run through any amendments to the bill since the election?

[Ducimus]

Maybe in order to understand politics, we have to look at the word itself: "Politics". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "Poli" and "tics". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is politics.


Greek in origin. Affairs of the cities, or something like that.

Polis means city, or city-state.

The most annoying thing is that one countries SNAFU is going to screw with half the planets economy. :/\\!! Eh, well, that's how it goes.


Globalism for teh lose?

[JU_88]

The problem is Obamacare will be a big economic disaster for the US in it's present form. The other problem is we always kick the can and will continue to do so. Obama has no give as of yet.

No doubt this is a political chess game setting up the next election cycles. In reality we know neither party will fix the debt.

If the Tea Party wasn't full of a bunch of radical religious nuts, they would grow and take over.


Well, If neither party will fix the debt, the debt will fix them instead.
Thats what we could be seeing this week, I don't know.

[Oberon]

Globalism for teh lose?

It does seem to have gotten out of hand, I mean I'm all for increased co-operation between countries, but total reliance on other nations for your existence in both financial and other means, it's dangerous.
But, I guess all of our nations have outgrown the nationalist self-state. Could the UK or US switch to a self-sustaining food system without either a) screwing up food prices or b) screwing up the economy?

I doubt it, sadly. :dead:


EDIT: As it comes down to this current situation, as has already been said, this is just a battlefield for the mid-terms, a rather risky game of chicken is being played with neither the Dems or the Reps wanting to blink but neither wanting to default. If the Dems blink first then they'll have their flagship (and only) program be chipped at by the GOP (because there's no way that they will settle with just one alteration) and if the GOP blinks first then their party will temporarily self-destruct as the infighting begins, and if neither blink then they're both going to be lynched by the American public when the US economy hits the default.
Given how visible and vocal the rifts in the GOP are, I'd say that the Dems are pretty sure that they're holding the winning cards, which is one of the reasons they're not compromising, they know that if they can hold on, they might just break the GOP.
It's all pretty ballsy stuff, and if the world economy wasn't riding on it would be interesting for all the right reasons, but at the moment it just looks like two parties arguing as the boat moves towards the waterfall...

[Oberon]

Looks like a deal is close to being finalised, and Cruz has said that he won't block it, so the can will be kicked down the road until next year at least. However the likelihood of default has been reduced unless something goes very wrong in voting, but given that Cruz has given his blessing to it, then it's likely to roll through just fine, just in time...as always. :O:

[Jimbuna]

No big surprise...same old same old.

[Ducimus]

Looks like a deal is close to being finalised, and Cruz has said that he won't block it, so the can will be kicked down the road until next year at least.

No big surprise...same old same old.


Applicable, and obligatory, and mind you, this was upload two years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9yxANcHj1A

[Oberon]

Applicable, and obligatory, and mind you, this was upload two years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9yxANcHj1A

Aye, snag is, I think that the hole has been dug so deep now that there is no way out of it. :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

Aye, snag is, I think that the hole has been dug so deep now that there is no way out of it. :hmmm:

That won't stop them from kicking the can a bit further, for as long as possible. I don't think our congress is capable of making any decisions on weighty matters.

[Oberon]

That won't stop them from kicking the can a bit further, for as long as possible. I don't think our congress is capable of making any decisions on weighty matters.

But what can be done other than kicking the can? I don't think any American government can sell the prospect of the kind of belt tightening that hasn't been since in America since the 1920s/30s and still expect to keep their office.

[Ducimus]

But what can be done other than kicking the can? I don't think any American government can sell the prospect of the kind of belt tightening that hasn't been since in America since the 1920s/30s and still expect to keep their office.

In therein lays the problem with professional liars.. err i mean Politicians. They will only do what will keep them in office. If we had congressional term limits, maybe they'd be less obsessed with keeping that comfy seat. Of course congressional term limits ain't EVER gonna happen. That would have to get past congress, and their not about to limit themselves.

[Oberon]

In therein lays the problem with professional liars.. err i mean Politicians. They will only do what will keep them in office. If we had congressional term limits, maybe they'd be less obsessed with keeping that comfy seat. Of course congressional term limits ain't EVER gonna happen. That would have to get past congress, and their not about to limit themselves.

I think that'd happen with any politician, term limits or not, the general public, and not just in America but over here too, have become so accustomed to a lifestyle of plenty and a government of spending that I don't know how they would react if suddenly the money stopped flowing, I mean, it's going to happen one day, and the longer it's left the worse it'll get, but at the moment it's such a big sum that the consequences would be rather terrible. I know the US has a high GDP and that will cover a bit of it, but to return the budget to zero debt, or even just to pre-2001 debt levels would take a phenominal effort that I don't think that not even the US public would be willing to bear it, especially in this emotionally charged partisan environment that the US is currently in.

[Armistead]

But what can be done other than kicking the can? I don't think any American government can sell the prospect of the kind of belt tightening that hasn't been since in America since the 1920s/30s and still expect to keep their office.

That's the problem, our system is so far gone we must kick the can, rather than go through the pain of fixing it. . Americans would rather keep passing the upcoming disaster to our kids.

[mapuc]

It seems like they have come to some kind of agreement.

See you in some other thread, when the next deadline approach between Jan and Feb, next year

Markus

[Ducimus]

That's the problem, our system is so far gone we must kick the can, rather than go through the pain of fixing it. . Americans would rather keep passing the upcoming disaster to our kids.

Personally, I'd rather we just get it over with rather then having it hang over our heads with this sense of impending doom.

[Jimbuna]

In therein lays the problem with professional liars.. err i mean Politicians. They will only do what will keep them in office. If we had congressional term limits, maybe they'd be less obsessed with keeping that comfy seat. Of course congressional term limits ain't EVER gonna happen. That would have to get past congress, and their not about to limit themselves.

I've often wondered why there are term limits on the POTUS but not on the others.

As for congressional term limits, well that would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Jimbuna]

BBC take on it:


Republican and Democratic leaders of the US Senate have struck a cross-party deal to end a partial government shutdown and raise the US debt limit.
Their bill must also pass the House, where a small group of Republicans are expected to join Democrats to send the bill to President Barack Obama.
The bill extends the federal borrowing limit until 7 February and funds the government to 15 January.
It comes just a day before the deadline to raise the $16.7tn (£10.5tn) limit.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24557469

[Armistead]

Personally, I'd rather we just get it over with rather then having it hang over our heads with this sense of impending doom.

The problem is if we go down, we take the world with us. That's the problem, the fix would be doom, so we keep kicking the can. Today, everything is too big to fail....Yep, the only fix is to let it happen, but even if we did our elected officials would soon be back at screwing it up. I think they think if they create poverty in mass slowly, we'll sit back and take it while the rich gets richer.

[Oberon]

The problem is if we go down, we take the world with us. That's the problem, the fix would be doom, so we keep kicking the can. Today, everything is too big to fail....Yep, the only fix is to let it happen, but even if we did our elected officials would soon be back at screwing it up. I think they think if they create poverty in mass slowly, we'll sit back and take it while the rich gets richer.

The world really needs to rapidly move towards a post-America-centric state, changing international currencies and the like, so when America does stop kicking the can it doesn't screw us all over, so we can help America get back up on its feet again.

[Dread Knot]

Ahh. The politics of procrastination. Why do today what you never intend to do anyway?

The world really needs to rapidly move towards a post-America-centric state, changing international currencies and the like, so when America does stop kicking the can it doesn't screw us all over, so we can help America get back up on its feet again.

Fiscal conservatives here often like to compare America's deficit problem to a household which is living beyond it's means and needs to cut up it's credit cards and stop hitting the local loan office. A nice, warm homey example.

However, it's the rare household which throws the whole town it's located in into financial turmoil when it can't get it's financial act together.

[Armistead]

[QUOTE=Oberon;2128945]The world really needs to rapidly move towards a post-America-centric state, changing international currencies and the like, so when America does stop kicking the can it doesn't screw us all over, so we can help America get back up on its feet again.[/QUOTE

That's coming eventually, but seems nations would rather lend America in debt so they can deal with the problems of the world. America is really a win win for China, they can create problems and lend us the money to deal with them.

[Oberon]

The world really needs to rapidly move towards a post-America-centric state, changing international currencies and the like, so when America does stop kicking the can it doesn't screw us all over, so we can help America get back up on its feet again.

That's coming eventually, but seems nations would rather lend America in debt so they can deal with the problems of the world. America is really a win win for China, they can create problems and lend us the money to deal with them.

Aye, well it helps that you are the dominant military power in the world, and when it comes to hard power you really can't beat good old fashioned firepower to get your point across, in comparison the EU nations (even if they worked together) would struggle to match the reach of the US armed forces, Russia has little means to project its power before its regional borders and very little will to do so, and China is in a similar situation. So, when there's a problem that needs someone who carries a big stick, naturally the US is going to be the first person to go to since they carry the biggest stick.
Furthermore, with such a global reach it's in the best interest of the US to use that big stick to maintain its presence around the globe, and thus the reputation that if you want someone with lots of guns, you go to Washington, because then Washington gets itself a lot of political IOUs, and thus can continue offloading debt to other nations in return for acting as the security guard for those nations.
America has spent the best part of seventy years cementing its position as a superpower with a global reach, and has made the pedestal that it stands on so high that it can't get back down from it again.

I think in the coming years, the US is going to have to accept a reduced military, a drastically reduced one, and a reduced global influence, a sort of 'East of Suez' style disengagement, but not, by any means, isolation because that will result in disaster, as has already been seen.
In a way, the US at the moment can be compared to the UK post-WWII, in dire financial problems with a multitude of overseas commitments that simply cannot be funded anymore without dramatic alterations. There's going to be a lot of difficult decisions to be made for America in the coming years, and I really feel for the American people who are going to have to come to terms with the new world order and the anger and resentment that there's going to be with the fall from grace. I imagine a lot of British people went through a similar state in the 1950s and 60s.

[Tribesman]

Do I understand this correctly?
The tea party fringe of the Republican party decided to hold the country to ransom so they could get rid of the ACA.
The deal they "won" with all their silliness simply adds another level of government bureaucracy to the existing bill. :hmmm:

[Tchocky]

Not even, Tribesman. Income verification was already in the bill.

[STEED]

All sorted now? Or as they say..sort of.

[Onkel Neal]

So, we dig ourselves deeper in debt with little thought of entitlement reform and spending cuts.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, we dig ourselves deeper in debt with little thought of entitlement reform and spending cuts.

Just another day in America! Get yours! Oh, nevermind, you are one that is supporting those getting theirs. :shifty:

Seems the only folks that understand are those who look at their paystubs and see that they are nothing more than a ATM for the government.

Today in MD 81,000 have been added to the Medicare rolls. Free. Come and get it.

[Oberon]

Well, hopefully this mess will have given the world the wake up call it needs to wean itself off cheap American money. :yep:



EDIT: So, the next fiasco in the US political system is likely to be immigration reform - http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/obama-immigration-shutdown-debt-limit-fights/story?id=20582502
The GOP will want to back that reform in order to get more immigrants onto the Republican ticket and to stop being seen as dinosaurs and out of touch...but guess who in the GOP won't want that reform? Yup, the Tea Party...so it'll be another internal-GOP fight, more shouting and heartache, and further weakening of the GOP. Obama is out for the kill, and the GOP has a massive weak-spot which is just ripe for exploiting.

[Bubblehead1980]

Aye, well it helps that you are the dominant military power in the world, and when it comes to hard power you really can't beat good old fashioned firepower to get your point across, in comparison the EU nations (even if they worked together) would struggle to match the reach of the US armed forces, Russia has little means to project its power before its regional borders and very little will to do so, and China is in a similar situation. So, when there's a problem that needs someone who carries a big stick, naturally the US is going to be the first person to go to since they carry the biggest stick.
Furthermore, with such a global reach it's in the best interest of the US to use that big stick to maintain its presence around the globe, and thus the reputation that if you want someone with lots of guns, you go to Washington, because then Washington gets itself a lot of political IOUs, and thus can continue offloading debt to other nations in return for acting as the security guard for those nations.
America has spent the best part of seventy years cementing its position as a superpower with a global reach, and has made the pedestal that it stands on so high that it can't get back down from it again.

I think in the coming years, the US is going to have to accept a reduced military, a drastically reduced one, and a reduced global influence, a sort of 'East of Suez' style disengagement, but not, by any means, isolation because that will result in disaster, as has already been seen.
In a way, the US at the moment can be compared to the UK post-WWII, in dire financial problems with a multitude of overseas commitments that simply cannot be funded anymore without dramatic alterations. There's going to be a lot of difficult decisions to be made for America in the coming years, and I really feel for the American people who are going to have to come to terms with the new world order and the anger and resentment that there's going to be with the fall from grace. I imagine a lot of British people went through a similar state in the 1950s and 60s.

Sadly, you are correct for the most part.The final nail in the coffin will be if obama gets "immigration reform" through.Blanket amnesty is unlikely but any form of amnesty that gives 20 million people rights they do not deserve and are in no way entitled to, will finish this country off.While the idea of a melting pot sounds great, a little under half of this country no longer shares traditional american values.I am not talking about this in the religious sense because as an atheist, I find the god thing ridiculous.However, roughly half of this country wants socialism, even at the inevitable cost of our liberties.Sad part is prob 40-46 percent of these poor fools just do not know any better.They are uneducated, no sense of history, etc, they just want their "free stuff" and feel oppressed by "rich" people.They are, the "unwashed masses", and failure to properly manage them has left us where we are . The other half of this country believes in the constitutional, traditional free markets, liberty, the things that made this a great nation.

Well, I do not want us to be like the UK.I find it sad that what was once such a great and proud empire, is no more.Not putting down your people, I have a lot of love and respect for the UK and it's people but socialism ruined your country and seems it is doing the same with ours.

Perhaps fate will save us, it has before, if not then will we just try to pick up the pieces in the years to come.

[TarJak]

Britains wartime debt and national independence movements across the empire had far more to do with the demise of the British Empire than socialist governments did.

Not saying that socialist policies didn't help but they were definitely not the primary cause.