Obamacare

[Armistead]

Don't really care to debate it, just wondering, the govt will start collecting fines from those that opt out, where is this money going? I would assume it's to fund medicare/caid since several million will be joining in, but can't find anything on it. If they are collecting another tax, the question is how will it get spent. I've heard talk of SS and medicare being in a lock box before so congress wouldn't touch it, but we know it all got spent on stupidity.

The fines aren't much 2014, but by 2016 they really get up there, about $700 per adult,$300 per kid, quite a chunk for a married couple with a few kids.

Looking on a few forums, poor that have to buy even cheaper insurance, the deductibles are so high, 5-10K, they could hardly use the insurance their being forced to buy.

[Sailor Steve]

No, I don't care for Obama. I doubt he cares for me either, but I haven't made enough noise for him to say anything one way or the other. I don't think he's worried though.

the govt will start collecting fines from those that opt out, where is this money going?
I don't know, but it sounds like a protection racket to me, kind of like property taxes.

I've heard talk of SS and medicare being in a lock box before so congress wouldn't touch it, but we know it all got spent on stupidity.
I read an article years ago that said Congress can't touch SS anyway. Social Security, on the other hand, can "lend" money to Congress of their own volition, which makes them look good. Congress pays the interest, which makes them look good, and SS is broke, which is not good for us.

The fines aren't much 2014, but by 2016 they really get up there, about $700 per adult,$300 per kid, quite a chunk for a married couple with a few kids.
So the people Federal Health Care is supposed to help, the very poor, not only still aren't getting help but are now in debt to the government for fines they can't pay. I'm sure I'm missing something, but that's how it sounds to me.

Looking on a few forums, poor that have to buy even cheaper insurance, the deductibles are so high, 5-10K, they could hardly use the insurance their being forced to buy.
Oh, I see you've already covered it. Sorry. I'm sure you're missing something too. It can't be that bad.

I've heard that a couple of States have good health care systems. While I'm not against this in principle, it's my firm belief is that this is not what we created our Federal Government for. But now I'm straying into your "don't really care to debate it" area, for which I apologize and will stop now.

[Bubblehead1980]

Exactly, it's all big joke.The money will no doubt be used to fund more waste. I no longer have health insurance since turned 26, not working while in school.I graduate in in the spring, hopefully can find a job with insurance, unless that is gone and have to get a substandard obamacare plan.Until and employed and have/afford insurance I will hold off.Absolutely will not be forced to buy insurance as the law is illegitimate but will stay away from the debate.They can fine me, I won't pay.Hopefully can stay under radar, if they do send a letter, I have an idea of what my response will be, it involves the letters F and O.

[mapuc]

Now that some one have posted a thread about this issue I can post a google translated article from a danish newspaper(politiken.dk)

Americans' ignorance threatens Obamacare
Uninsured Americans have no idea that they can get help from Obamacare

Barack Obama made ​​his controversial healthcare reform approved by the Supreme Court, but the real challenge may well be to get it convinced the American people about its virtues

Many in fact has no idea that the so-called Obamacare can help them

It may ultimately mean that the whole system is not going to function properly

Eight out of ten uninsured for nothing
78 percent of the 30 million uninsured Americans, which is likely to obtain support through Obamacare, do not even know what they can get out of the system. According to a study from the democratic public opinion institute Lake Research Partners

Right now many states in deciding how they will participate in the system to ensure that uninsured Americans have access to health care. In many places, however, the system is unpopular

An average of polls shows that 50 percent of Americans are in favor of wind Obamacare again. 44 percent want to keep the reform, figures from Real Clear Politics.

If it ends up getting sign up when registration opens 1 October next year, it can lead to more expensive insurance. The system has been built in many entries.

Many are confused over the reform
During the just ended election campaign there was a great battle over whether ObamaCare violated the U.S. Constitution. It meant very little discussion about how the system actually works.

41 percent of voters describe themselves as 'confused' about the new healthcare reform. According to a study by the Kaiser Family Foundation conducted in October.

The government's attempt to inform Americans about health reform meets fierce opposition from Republicans in Congress, who accuse the government of using taxpayers' money to promote special interests

Medical Organizations will inform citizens
This will now get supporters of the system outside the government to put campaigns started. Under the slogan 'Join U.S. are a number of associations, among others, the American hospital association, AHA, and a number of medical organizations.

They are afraid that those who most need the system, know least about it.

"It is vital that people who want to get the benefits (of Obamacare, ed.), Hear about the new insurance coverage and get to know how to sign up," said Rachel Klein, who heads the Register United States, Washington post.

Inhabitants missing or distorted knowledge is troubling, she says. It was especially clear when Register United States a few weeks ago did focus group studies among uninsured Americans.

However, when asked whether they had heard of a requirement that they must buy health insurance, shot their hands. But when they were asked if they had heard of anything that will make these insurance cheaper for them, said none of the 31 participants yes

ObamaCare leaves 18,600,000 uninsured
In the coming months, Sign U.S. begin advertising campaigns to get the uninsured to sign up. They will probably focus more particularly on the populous states of Texas and Florida, where a total of 10 million people are uninsured, but where states did not provide information on Obamacare.

Currently, 48.6 million U.S. residents without health insurance. Congressional Budget Department estimates that 30 million will be covered when Obamacare takes effect.

18600000 In other words remain uninsured. About a quarter of these are illegal immigrants who are not covered by the reform


I'm sorry if there is some words or phrase you can't understand, I have used google tranlate all the way and have made a few correction.

When I read this article back in Nov. 2012 it made me think a lot.


Markus

[soopaman2]

All the part timers at my company were cut in hours, to the point of poverty.

Company don't wanna pay for Obamacare, and would rather saddle the workers, whos hours they killed, and force them to pay for their own, with, and I say again, reduced hours....

And you wonder why people hate the rich/corporations?

This Bill is signed and sealed by them, manipulated from a single payer system, to an insurance company boon.

Thanks to congress, and thanks to Obama for the zero balls he showed in pushing through the single payer, and not fighting the insurance company lobbyists, who want to keep their policies of overcharging, and not paying out.


Why are insurance companies on the stock market?

Seriously, once you hit public trading, your focus becomes the shareholder, and not the customer. Insurance used to be protection, now it is just another scam, chock full of fine print.

Which is fine if you are Walmart, or McD's, you can choose not to go there...

But I am forced to buy car insurance, and am vastly ripped off, forced to buy medical insurance, from companies who did nothing but jack up rates in the past 3 years, since this went through.

I live on the Jersey shore, ask us what we are going through with Sandy Damage and insurance companies here!?!

If you think this is the spineless Obama, and not the fact our government is bought and paid for by big Bussiness, then I got oceanfront property to sell you in the Czeck Republic.

How come people always trash the little man, and not the million/billion $ corporations, who refuse to provide a livable wage, or refuse to help in the social betterment of a nation as a whole.

No patriotism in bussiness anymore, none, the prole is expendable.

[Bubblehead1980]

Now that some one have posted a thread about this issue I can post a google translated article from a danish newspaper(politiken.dk)



I'm sorry if there is some words or phrase you can't understand, I have used google tranlate all the way and have made a few correction.

When I read this article back in Nov. 2012 it made me think a lot.


Markus

I understand the law perfectly.The whole "the public is just ignorant" is a propaganda campaign to put in place an excuse for it's likely failure.They, well we, know this monstrosity will not work, especially if those of us who can think refuse to bow down and sign up.I personally hope it causes nothing but a lot of problems so people can see how wrong it was, and his legacy will be what it deserves, in the gutter.This will also serve as a beacon/warning to future generations.I would have preferred the Supreme Court to not be tainted and ruled this law unconstitutional as it is, but Roberts was obviously intimidated, bribed, or something to switch his vote in what is likely the most "pulled out of my rear" legal decisions ever handed down.However, since this legal travesty occurred, I look forward to watching it fail.

[Tribesman]

I understand the law perfectly.
:rotfl2:look an elephant juggling while riding a bicycle backwards.

[Wolferz]

:rotfl2:look an elephant juggling while riding a bicycle backwards.

While surrounded by jackasses doing the same thing.:rotfl2:

[GoldenRivet]

I agree with everything about obamacare


except the mandate - i should not be penalized and taxed for not buying into a health care program that those in power are exempt from

ditch that and im 100% loving it.

[August]

$700 per adult

That's like what? Three months worth of insurance payments?

[Armistead]

While surrounded by jackasses doing the same thing.:rotfl2:

:har::har: There goes another keyboard...

[Armistead]

All the part timers at my company were cut in hours, to the point of poverty.


No patriotism in bussiness anymore, none, the prole is expendable.


Looking in the jobs section now, the majority of jobs for hire are part time.

US corporations have no patriotism in a global economy. They serve no nation, can move at will to build where work is the cheapest. This creates mass wealth for the few, but cannot sustain a nation. It's the vulture mentality. Obamacare is nothing more than a handout to the elite insurance corporations.

[Armistead]

That's like what? Three months worth of insurance payments?

For a family of 4, about $2000 per year.

[Bubblehead1980]

I agree with everything about obamacare


except the mandate - i should not be penalized and taxed for not buying into a health care program that those in power are exempt from

ditch that and im 100% loving it.

How can you love it? The law is already causing premiums to rise in many states and will so even more.The taxes in there, I think was 19 or 20 new taxes. Yet another entitlement we can not afford with the subsidies, now for sky high premiums. Then there is the mandate, at least you have a problem with that.The fact there were not riots in the streets over that mandate, shows what a hole the population of this country is in.The old America would have never stood for that type of garbage.Oh yes, businesses cutting hours for many employees, means less money, means more citizens in financial troubles, meaning more strain on the system and economic slowdown.

Sure, there are a few good things but overall is a garbage law that will harm our system.Of course the long term play is to get us to single payer.When private insurance becomes unaffordable for the vast majority of americans, the idiots in this country will think the evil insurance companies did it and will call for government style healthcare, like the NHS in the UK, which from what I understand is a nightmare.

There is a reason congress exempted itself from this monstrosity, they know it is crap.

[Stealhead]

There is a reason congress exempted itself from this monstrosity, they know it is crap.

Notwithstanding any other provision of the law, after the effective date of this subtitle, the only health plans that the Federal Government may make available to Members of Congress and Congressional staff with respect to their service as a Member of Congress or congressional staff shall be health plans that are — (I) created under this Act (or an amendment made by this Act); or (II) offered through an Exchange established under this Act (or an Amendment made by this Act).”


Taken from Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare.

[August]

For a family of 4, about $2000 per year.


Still way cheaper than the cost of an insurance policy.

[Bubblehead1980]

Notwithstanding any other provision of the law, after the effective date of this subtitle, the only health plans that the Federal Government may make available to Members of Congress and Congressional staff with respect to their service as a Member of Congress or congressional staff shall be health plans that are — (I) created under this Act (or an amendment made by this Act); or (II) offered through an Exchange established under this Act (or an Amendment made by this Act).”


The loophole around this is the law permits employer to keep current coverage if able.The health insurance for congress and their drones(staffers) is staying the same from what I understand so they are in fact exempt.They keep their great health coverage while many people are being dropped due to this law and forced into the "exchanges" . That is the reality of the situation. Premiums are going up in most places and will skyrocket in coming years.

[Stealhead]

Still way cheaper than the cost of an insurance policy.


Also this:

When the individual mandate is fully phased-in, those who can afford coverage -- which is defined as insurance costing less than 8 percent of their annual income -- but choose to forgo it will have to pay either $695 or 2.5 percent of the annual income, whichever is greater.That fee would be once a year.

[Armistead]

Still way cheaper than the cost of an insurance policy.

Not for a family. The problem again is even the cheapest insurance would equal or exceed the fines. Then you're left with a 10K deductible to pay.....Even for a lower middle class family, the deductible nulls the insurance.

[Tribesman]

Apparently in relation to post#7 I have to make an argument as to why what it addresses is stupid and not rely on it being patently obvious that it is stupid.
So here you go Sailor, just for you.
The document in question is large and complex, it contains lots of words which have very specific meanings.
It directly references a vast array of other lengthy complex documents covering a wide range of subjects and numerous different government departments, all of which also contain lots of words with very specific meanings.
The person in question has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to understand the meaning of very basic words.
Since much of this document is of a very legalese nature it also requires an ability with legal definitions as well as ordinary word definitions.
The person in question has also repeatedly demonstrated that even very basic legal definitions are beyond their ken.
On those points alone it is safe to say the claim that was made by bubblehead is utterly and unquestionably false, or to use the technical term ..... complete bull.

Numerous references are available on this forum which proves that to be true, if anyone is unfamiliar with any examples they need go no further than the first page of GT to get plenty of samples which prove it without any shadow of a doubt.



That should be enough, but as is my habit I will further the point with a question.
Throughout the States large numbers of well paid teams of top legal experts have been crawling through this document to try to get a grasp on not only the basics but all the intricate fine details and all their implications and ramifications. After all its a big issue with lots of big money involved.
Why are all these corporations paying all those lawyers to try and decipher the complicated maze of legislation if they could just hire bubbles who already understands it perfectly?:hmmm:

[vienna]

On those points alone it is safe to say the claim that was made by bubblehead is utterly and unquestionably false, or to use the technical term ..... complete bull.


At least the lad is consistent...


<O>

[Sailor Steve]

My question is this: Is the United States Government really telling the people that they must purchase a product or pay a fine. If so, how is that even remotely withing the bounds of the US Constitution?

I'm certain there's something I'm missing somewhere.

[AVGWarhawk]

I can say this, I know of two elderly dropped by AETNA. I know of another that can not see the doctor she has been for years. What happened to, "You like that plan you have or doctor you see? You don't need to change that." I'm not talking generalities here. I'm talking reality. Is it really necessary to ask someone in their 70's to completely change what they have knows since getting Medicare?

Currently a family member is on a free medical plan. Subsidy from the govt. She will now have to pay something. It looks to me that a lot are in for a rude awakening.

[Jimbuna]

Don't worry Chris, the Brit government allow anyone and everyone to access the NHS for free.

We (the Brit tax payer) will always be here to help a friend in need.

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't worry Chris, the Brit government allow anyone and everyone to access the NHS for free.

We (the Brit tax payer) will always be here to help a friend in need.

The elderly have paid into it when working. They pay while retired. It is not free by any means. My father paid close to $25k per year in medications. This was with a top of the line plan. These folks are now getting confusing letters from their current insurance carriers. Getting dropped. Doctors are telling some that he/she can not see them any longer. Then they provide a list of doctors they can see. Do the elderly really deserve this? In the long run the elderly might be better off under the ACA but the introduction and implementation of the ACA has been nothing short of horrid. Many are confused. For some this is stressful.

[Bubblehead1980]

Apparently in relation to post#7 I have to make an argument as to why what it addresses is stupid and not rely on it being patently obvious that it is stupid.
So here you go Sailor, just for you.
The document in question is large and complex, it contains lots of words which have very specific meanings.
It directly references a vast array of other lengthy complex documents covering a wide range of subjects and numerous different government departments, all of which also contain lots of words with very specific meanings.
The person in question has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to understand the meaning of very basic words.
Since much of this document is of a very legalese nature it also requires an ability with legal definitions as well as ordinary word definitions.
The person in question has also repeatedly demonstrated that even very basic legal definitions are beyond their ken.
On those points alone it is safe to say the claim that was made by bubblehead is utterly and unquestionably false, or to use the technical term ..... complete bull.

Numerous references are available on this forum which proves that to be true, if anyone is unfamiliar with any examples they need go no further than the first page of GT to get plenty of samples which prove it without any shadow of a doubt.



That should be enough, but as is my habit I will further the point with a question.
Throughout the States large numbers of well paid teams of top legal experts have been crawling through this document to try to get a grasp on not only the basics but all the intricate fine details and all their implications and ramifications. After all its a big issue with lots of big money involved.
Why are all these corporations paying all those lawyers to try and decipher the complicated maze of legislation if they could just hire bubbles who already understands it perfectly?:hmmm:

Really, it's not that complicated and the portrait you just painted is grossly inaccurate and unfair. Obviously it is you who does not understand it if you find it that complicated.Once again, stop with the veiled insults or the overt ones.

The law's negative effects are already being seen and more will come in next few months.Premiums are already higher in many states, much higher. The 19 or so new taxes in the law are being passed on to the consumer.Many employers are dropping workers to part time to avoid the mandate and even with the delay, they will do continue to do so.The insurance purchased on these exchanges have ridiculous deductibles and premiums in some cases.

Pretty easy to see that insurance will become more and more difficult for even middle class families to afford, the private market will be blamed and alas, a call and demand for single payer will likely come and then we will be stuck with some NHS like debacle.

Are you that blinded by your ideology to see this?

[Bubblehead1980]

My question is this: Is the United States Government really telling the people that they must purchase a product or pay a fine. If so, how is that even remotely withing the bounds of the US Constitution?

I'm certain there's something I'm missing somewhere.


It is not within the bounds of the constitution and John Roberts knows it, it's why originally he was ruling against obamacare. Something changed his mind, likely some blackmail, chicago style. Robert's "legal reasoning" that the fine is indeed a tax and congress has the power is the one of biggest loads of legal bull pulled out of a justice's rear end up.Robert's sold out.They all know it is unconstitutional, liberty took a definite death blow in June 2012 when the decision was announced.

[vienna]

It should be pointed out the GOP did in fact raise the issue of ACA being an actual tax at the very start of the whole process of creating the Act. The GOP members of Congress from the Tea Party Loyalists to the more moderate (and more sane) GOP members did try to point out the ACA was a tax; in fact, even the Rightist media (Fox News, Limbaugh, Hannity, et. al.) very loudly and repeatedly made the ACA being a tax an issue. Then, all of a sudden, they backed off and became silent on the whole "ACA is a tax" tangent. They suddenly tried to portray the ACA as anything other than a tax. Perhaps they were informed by some other people in their ranks who actually knew the Constitution and the law that the ACA, as a tax, was legal (passed by Congress, as all taxes are) and governed by the Commerce Clause. It almost appeared as if the GOP actually appeared to believe that if they didn't mention the ACA was a tax, the Supreme Court would fail to see the Commerce Clause coverage of the Act. Justice Roberts made the proper, and fully legal and Constitutional, finding the ACA is a tax and within the Constitutional parameters...

There at times the GOP right reminds me of a Marx Bros. scene from the movie "Monkey Business:

Chico: You call this a barn? This looks like a stable.

Groucho: It looks like a barn but smells like a stable.

Chico: Well, let's just look at it.


The GOP is being gutted by the Far Right of its membership in the same manner the Dems were gutted by the Far Left during the period dominated by McCarthy, McGovern, and others and the GOP will suffer the same fate of losing the confidence of the American public and being marginalized politically the Dems went through. The Tea Party and the other Far Right lunkheads are doing the same thing to the GOP the scandals of Nixon did to the GOP in the 60s and 70s and this time they don't have a Goldwater or Dirksen to bring order to the mess or even an all-style-no-substance figurehead like Reagan to help them wage a PR battle. Instead they have a barely able Boehner in the House, a nut case Cruz in the Senate and a seemingly vast assortment of other nutjobs to represent the "future" of the party. If, as it seems to be the trend, the GOP implodes on itself, the party 'leadership' has only themselves to blame; the Dems and Obama have only to sit back, watch, and then profit from the GOP version of the "Titanic"...


<O>

[Jimbuna]

The elderly have paid into it when working. They pay while retired. It is not free by any means. My father paid close to $25k per year in medications. This was with a top of the line plan. These folks are now getting confusing letters from their current insurance carriers. Getting dropped. Doctors are telling some that he/she can not see them any longer. Then they provide a list of doctors they can see. Do the elderly really deserve this? In the long run the elderly might be better off under the ACA but the introduction and implementation of the ACA has been nothing short of horrid. Many are confused. For some this is stressful.

I do understand, so come over to the UK....would make a pleasant change to care for friends, family and allies instead of what we are becoming increasingly accustomed to.

[Bubblehead1980]

Vienna, are you kidding me? The Obama Admin's lawyers could not even decide if it was a tax during arguments in front of the supreme court, it is not a tax! it is a FINE for not purchasing something.A tax is levied when you actually engage in commerce. Robert's alleged "reasoning" in his decision was total garbage.Why he changed his mind shortly before the decision, we will probably never know.Rumor is he was blackmailed over his possible homosexuality.Whatever the reason, there is no legal basis for the decision as a "tax", never seen the constitution raped in such a manner, except maybe Roe v Wade. I am pro choice but Roe was a terrible decision.

[Tribesman]

Really, it's not that complicated and the portrait you just painted is grossly inaccurate and unfair.
It is complicated and the portrait is accurate.
But hey I will give you a chance since you know this legislation perfectly.
Can you give a brief rundown on funding allocations and exemptions for the DSH program, can you give a brief summary of the methodology and sliding scale plus method of distribution which is aiming to reduce those payments, and of course the timeframe set for the planned reduction?

then we will be stuck with some NHS like debacle.


Is that the NHS which despite its faults and the foolish tory ideological driven meddling still gives better results for less money than the US system?
Or is that the infamous NHS which Stephen Hawking would have died in if he had used it?:rotfl2:

Are you that blinded by your ideology to see this?
What ideology young man?

[vienna]

I really doubt you have even read the decision or any of the precedents cited in the decision. I belive you get most of your "opinions" from the nutjob drivel of Rush, Sean, and the other neo-Goebbels of the Far Right loonies. It is interesting to note the Far Right media, being unable to defend their allegations or counter the actual law and logic of the decision, now resort to the usual, tired, hackneyed fallbacks of conspiracy theories ("blackmail") or unbased innuendo ("He's gay..."). Why don't you just call him a "Commie" to complete the stew of blather you and your sort spew...

I would suggest, if you really wish to practice law, you learn to read and understand the law, relevant court findings, and maybe throw in a generous helping of logic and discernment; otherwise the future of your legal career may be found on bus bench ads so poular among the ambulance chasers...

Of course, your own bus bench ads are dependent on your actually passing the Bar; but, then, you will have already finished polishing your "I'm a victim of of a Liberal, Left-Wing Law School education" screed in anticipation. Perhaps you can find a closeted gay professor or Dean to blackmail...


<O>

[Bilge_Rat]

http://imageshack.us/a/img41/4320/prrb.jpg

[Platapus]

My question is this: Is the United States Government really telling the people that they must purchase a product or pay a fine. If so, how is that even remotely withing the bounds of the US Constitution?

I'm certain there's something I'm missing somewhere.

That's why we have a supreme court: To evaluate laws to determine constitutionality. I think the mandate is wrong also, but I also don't see any other way.

I am also not the official authority on what is and ain't constitutional.:D

I sure don't like the present system where people are not paying for insurance, but still get health care and the cost is passed to the rest of us.

To me, the solution is to fix the ACA not dump it. I fear that some members of congress are more concerned with erasing any Obama administration legacy than are interested in actually helping the citizens.

Has anyone, regardless of party, offered up another option?

[Bubblehead1980]

I really doubt you have even read the decision or any of the precedents cited in the decision. I belive you get most of your "opinions" from the nutjob drivel of Rush, Sean, and the other neo-Goebbels of the Far Right loonies. It is interesting to note the Far Right media, being unable to defend their allegations or counter the actual law and logic of the decision, now resort to the usual, tired, hackneyed fallbacks of conspiracy theories ("blackmail") or unbased innuendo ("He's gay..."). Why don't you just call him a "Commie" to complete the stew of blather you and your sort spew...

I would suggest, if you really wish to practice law, you learn to read and understand the law, relevant court findings, and maybe throw in a generous helping of logic and discernment; otherwise the future of your legal career may be found on bus bench ads so poular among the ambulance chasers...

Of course, your own bus bench ads are dependent on your actually passing the Bar; but, then, you will have already finished polishing your "I'm a victim of of a Liberal, Left-Wing Law School education" screed in anticipation. Perhaps you can find a closeted gay professor or Dean to blackmail...


<O>

I read the decision and it was garbage, just like the government's arguments in front of the court.Really, it is not complicated, people like to make things complicated and hope the truth gets lost in all noise. Fact is, Robert's changed his mind with no real reason why.One, he was concerned about his court's legacy or there was blackmail etc. Yes, it is possible, blackmail etc does occur and Robert's homosexuality rumors were around long before.I don't care if he is a homosexual but I do care if he was blackmailed and given the tactics of obama and his loyal band of ignorant followers, it is likely this happened.There simply was no logical legal basis for his decision, he pulled it out of his rear and attempted to justify it, the end.

[Tribesman]

Yes, it is possible, blackmail etc does occur and Robert's homosexuality rumors were around long before.I don't care if he is a homosexual but I do care if he was blackmailed and given the tactics of obama and his loyal band of ignorant followers, it is likely this happened.
Does this merit a merge with the crazy conspiracy theories topic?

[Bubblehead1980]

Does this merit a merge with the crazy conspiracy theories topic?

No it does not, stop.

[Tchocky]

Give it a rest, bubblehead.

You're embarrassing yourself.

[Skybird]

That is no bad blown-up show that is set up by these antisocial, predatory parasites - considering that they are debating about money that is no money but debt bonds, and considering that the US explicit debt level alone exceeds the year's gross domestic product GDP. Not to mention that the implicit debt level is several times as high.

They are debating the king's new dresses and make a mega-big deal of his collection, while everybody having eyes could easily see that the king is naked for sure.

100% of nothing just remains to be nothing.

What these parasites really try to sell to the observer is the impression of being important and indispensable themselves.

[Tchocky]

Yeah, healthcare. How irrelevant.

[Bubblehead1980]

Give it a rest, bubblehead.

You're embarrassing yourself.

no, because I am arguing with people who are just flat out wrong.There is a reason this law is so unpopular and it has nothing to do with "ignorance" of the public.The unpopularity comes in as even the general public can see the negative effects this law is already having, will have and they know, no matter what the corrupt and intellectually dishonest supreme court (in this instance ) says, the law is unconstitutional and the spirit of the law, coercion to purchase a product, is UNAMERICAN. This violates the very spirit our nation was founded upon.The fact the federal government plays enough of a role in our lives that if it shuts down if affects thing, shows just how far away we have drifted from what we are supposed to be.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yeah, healthcare. How irrelevant.


This law is and never was about healthcare, it is about power and money.Power and money for the government under the guise of healthcare for the people.Really, if they wanted the uninsured insured, they could simply open up the medicare rolls for those who cant afford insurance, pay a low premium each year and boom, everyone is covered. No taxes, no mandates, none of that garbage.Divert some of the money they waste to this, problem solved.

[Armistead]

First Obamacare, then a single payer system. In the end the GOP will have to accept this as the better alternative, because Obamacare is doomed to failure.

[Tribesman]

no, because I am arguing with people who are just flat out wrong.There is a reason this law is so unpopular and it has nothing to do with "ignorance" of the public.
Really?
Come along young man, I am still waiting for you to enlighten me from my ignorance by your perfect knowledge of this legislation.
What is the matter? was that part of the legislation too hard, too complicated for you to manage even a brief summary?
Ok how about something simpler.
What are the provisions to ensure that something like sickle cell screening by the US PSTF is covered and the corresponding ban on insurance co payments for it?:hmmm:

You really should be more careful about what you claim to know, as you seem to fail every time you are questioned on your claimed knowledge.
When you fail you have a rather funny tendency to lash out by calling other people ignorant instead of taking a step back and thinking about the falseness of the claims you have made.

[Skybird]

Yeah, healthcare. How irrelevant.

The explicit debts exceed the yearly GDP. The implicit debts exceed the yearly GDP by several factors. When you want something, you need to afford it. If you spend more than you earn, you get problems. If you live beyond what you can afford, you get problems. If you do not earn what you want to spend, you get problems. No matter how shiny your desires and wishes are.

These are simple truths. Likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it. The US wants much more than it can afford.

Even today everybody wants a party, and nobody wants to clean. Everybody agrees that something must change, but nobody wants to be affected by changes and reductions.

If there is one thing I "believe" in, then it is Karma, the inevitable and unavoidable causal link between cause and effect. People and nations will get from their mishandling of finances and their political decisions exactly what they deserve. And it ain't gonna be nice, that much is sure.


^ All this not meaning that just saying yes or no to Obamacare would solve problems. Its just a symptom of the psychological deformation crippling politicians and ordinary people alike, and socialism being an inbred genetic feature of democracy from all beginning on, always necessarily ruining it from within. So many more revolutionary changes than just Obamacare yes or no would be needed. In all major countries/economies on the globe. Simultaneously, from a historical POV.

I see no reason to be optimistic there.

[Bubblehead1980]

Really?
Come along young man, I am still waiting for you to enlighten me from my ignorance by your perfect knowledge of this legislation.
What is the matter? was that part of the legislation too hard, too complicated for you to manage even a brief summary?
Ok how about something simpler.
What are the provisions to ensure that something like sickle cell screening by the US PSTF is covered and the corresponding ban on insurance co payments for it?:hmmm:

You really should be more careful about what you claim to know, as you seem to fail every time you are questioned on your claimed knowledge.
When you fail you have a rather funny tendency to lash out by calling other people ignorant instead of taking a step back and thinking about the falseness of the claims you have made.


Yes Yes, lets ask about a part of a law I read in 210 after it was passed. A 2,000 plus page law by the way and if can't remember every little details, lets try to discredit, just stop tribesman, it's personal for you, you never prove your point. I offer points that are accepted fact much of the time. The law has a 15 percent tax on medical equipment along with others that are one reason costs are going up as costs gets passed along to the consumer.

I am just going to ignore you because it is personal and you will never be fair or try to discuss anything, you attack.

[Webster]

I am just going to ignore you because it is personal and you will never be fair or try to discuss anything, you attack.


BH why do you even entertain them? you should know by now you can't argue facts with trolls and 911 truthers because they just ignore or make up their own facts to fit whatever argument they want to have. they are only here to argue and never want to accept the truth or re-evaluate their position when you prove them wrong.

they will always point to the handful of things obamacare does right and blatantly ignore the 5,000 things it does wrong and how it completely destroys the greatest health care system in the world.

if other countries socialized care was so great why do people regularly die on year long waiting lists denied care until their number on the list comes up? people leave their countries and come to the USA to get the care they need without being told to wait in line and hope they don't die.


the sad truth is you cant stop obamacare because the lemmings blindly voted for santa clause who gives them free goodies (paid for by working americans). with 50% of America on the government dole there will never be a republican or conservative in control to undo the nanny state so it will stay that way until this country implodes and the people finally stop voting for socialism.

another truth is the health care industry is done in this country and health care will be a cash only product from now on. if you can pay you can get care, if not go sit on a government waiting list and be told what tests you are allowed to have rather then the ones you really need. this may actually get the unintended result of causing the side effect of having affordable health care in the form of cash only care.

[Bubblehead1980]

BH why do you even entertain them? you should know by now you can't argue facts with trolls and 911 truthers because they just ignore or make up their own facts to fit whatever argument they want to have. they are only here to argue and never want to accept the truth or re-evaluate their position when you prove them wrong.

they will always point to the handful of things obamacare does right and blatantly ignore the 5,000 things it does wrong and how it completely destroys the greatest health care system in the world.

if other countries socialized care was so great why do people regularly die on year long waiting lists denied care until their number on the list comes up? people leave their countries and come to the USA to get the care they need without being told to wait in line and hope they don't die.


the sad truth is you cant stop obamacare because the lemmings blindly voted for santa clause who gives them free goodies (paid for by working americans). with 50% of America on the government dole there will never be a republican or conservative in control to undo the nanny state so it will stay that way until this country implodes and the people finally stop voting for socialism.

another truth is the health care industry is done in this country and health care will be a cash only product from now on. if you can pay you can get care, if not go sit on a government waiting list and be told what tests you are allowed to have rather then the ones you really need. this may actually get the unintended result of causing the side effect of having affordable health care in the form of cash only care.

I suppose because I have dealt with their types before and eventually, in most cases, they come around.Back when I was 17, 18, I was always the conservative, I knew better, I knew the evils of liberalism. Some was just a natural "wait a minute, this is bull" and other was proper influences, not wanting to be one of the ignorant masses.All my friends though, while intelligent, were typical kids who thought they had to be liberal.Now, here we are post college, in the real world and prob out of 6 I can think of I regularly sparred with in high school and college, 4 have flat out converted, one is on the fence and the other is a hardcore lefty who has yet to see the error of her ways.Most people get a bit more conservative as they age because reality does not match with liberal/progressive ideology.

Now, it is a given that internet discussion is far different than in person but I don't give up especially when I know that I am right.I am patient and love it when even years down road, I am proven correct.I will never give up the battle on obamacare and hope those in congress do not, it is that much of a threat. I don't want us to have NHS style system or a cash system where only those who can pay get the proper car, the rest linger on the government roles.I would rather fight it and try to change , do my part , that is the battle and it is how the long game is won. Win with ideas and logic, no matter what they call you, what they say, you keep pressing and eventually, it will work, will you everyone to see the light? No, but can get enough. Yes, it's a tough battle, that is why they want so many people dependent on the government, it means POWER.

I have fought and continue to fight this battle everyday, in class, with friends, and even on this forum.I do my part to make a difference, it works with some, not with others, results are often delayed but I have seen results know I have made a difference.This is why despite tribes being a troll, I don't give up, I prob won't ignore him because it is not in my nature but it does get old when he wont discuss, he just insults but oh well.

[AVGWarhawk]

Webster:

The sad truth is you cant stop obamacare because the lemmings blindly voted for santa clause who gives them free goodies (paid for by working americans). with 50% of America on the government dole there will never be a republican or conservative in control to undo the nanny state so it will stay that way until this country implodes and the people finally stop voting for socialism.

:yeah: And the truth shall set you free!

[vienna]

Yes Yes, lets ask about a part of a law I read in 210 after it was passed. A 2,000 plus page law by the way and if can't remember every little details, lets try to discredit, just stop tribesman, it's personal for you, you never prove your point. I offer points that are accepted fact much of the time. The law has a 15 percent tax on medical equipment along with others that are one reason costs are going up as costs gets passed along to the consumer.

I am just going to ignore you because it is personal and you will never be fair or try to discuss anything, you attack.


[Bolding is mine]


From Bubbles Post #35:


Really, it is not complicated, people like to make things complicated and hope the truth gets lost in all noise.



I see...the law is not complicated when you want to make your "point", but is a complicated "2,000 plus page law" with hard to remember details when your point is challenged. How very convienient, n'cest pas? A truly remarkable document, as transmutable to your whims as the ideas of logic, reason, ethics, or civility seem to be in your world. It also seems duplicitty is a large part of your stock. May I also suggest you have added equivocation to your repertoire?...

As I pointed out before, your speil is becoming quite tiresome. Not only have you become as the adults in a "Peanuts" cartoon or the "blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah, blah" dog, you are like some bad stand-up comedian who only has one five-minute routine he repeats over and over. We've heard it all before, too many times, and the jokes are no longer funny, if they ever were to begin with...


<O>

[Bubblehead1980]

[Bolding is mine]


From Bubbles Post #35:




I see...the law is not complicated when you want to make your "point", but is a complicated "2,000 plus page law" with hard to remember details when your point is challenged. How very convienient, n'cest pas? A truly remarkable document, as transmutable to your whims as the ideas of logic, reason, ethics, or civility seem to be in your world. It also seems duplicitty is a large part of your stock. May I also suggest you have added equivocation to your repertoire?...

As I pointed out before, your speil is becoming quite tiresome. Not only have you become as the adults in a "Peanuts" cartoon or the "blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah, blah" dog, you are like some bad stand-up comedian who only has one five-minute routine he repeats over and over. We've heard it all before, too many times, and the jokes are no longer funny, if they ever were to begin with...


<O>

Again, you are twisting thing.2,000 pages is a lot to go through, remembering every little part due to the sheer bulk, is a lot to ask, if it were only thing I had to do, sure but I do have other things going on.However, the law in itself, is not that complicated, what is does and will do is pretty easy to see, especially the negative aspects which far outweigh the few positive ones.We are already seeing much of it, its easy to see, those pushing this law want it to seem more complicated than it is in that regard, easier to slip through.That was point of so many pages by it's authors.I have described many times what the law does based on reading the law, reading the analysis of those far more experienced than I and looking at the real world results thus far from the rising premiums due to expenses rising caused by the Unaffordable Care Act's taxes and regulations.That is just basic economics, understanding the costs get passed along down the chain.

[Tribesman]

Yes Yes, lets ask about a part of a law I read in 210 after it was passed.
You said you knew it perfectly, you have demonstrated that your claim is false.

A 2,000 plus page law by the way
Sounds complicated, I thought you said it wasn't complicated.
Plus of course that doesn't even go near the many many thousands of other pages in other documents which are directly referenced and/or amended by the 2000+ page document.
It certainly does make it look like it was a rather silly claim you made, and implies it was a rather sillier attempt to stand by that claim after it clearly fell to pieces round your feet.

it's personal for you
Not at all, the individual is irrelevant, the issue lies in the claims being made, or the lies as the case may be

you never prove your point.
Sorry but the examples prove that the point is made and very easily made.
Your claims were ludicrous and obviously ludicrous, as a legal "expert" you should understand the importance of words you choose to utilise.


I offer points that are accepted fact much of the time.
No, you offer opinion that you accept as fact, that is not the same thing at all.

Face it bubbles your problem on this can be very quickly and accurately summarised in a way that is undeniably true.
#1 you claimed knowledge of a document(perfect knowledge no less) which you clearly lack knowledge of
#2 you claimed a very lengthy and very complex set of legal documentation was not complicated.

Your fail was obvious, your attempt to stick by your fail has made it an epic fail. It really is that simple(unlike the legislation:03:)

[Tribesman]

BH why do you even entertain them? you should know by now you can't argue facts with trolls and 911 truthers because they just ignore or make up their own facts to fit whatever argument they want to have. they are only here to argue and never want to accept the truth or re-evaluate their position when you prove them wrong.

they will always point to the handful of things obamacare does right and blatantly ignore the 5,000 things it does wrong and how it completely destroys the greatest health care system in the world.

if other countries socialized care was so great why do people regularly die on year long waiting lists denied care until their number on the list comes up? people leave their countries and come to the USA to get the care they need without being told to wait in line and hope they don't die.


the sad truth is you cant stop obamacare because the lemmings blindly voted for santa clause who gives them free goodies (paid for by working americans). with 50% of America on the government dole there will never be a republican or conservative in control to undo the nanny state so it will stay that way until this country implodes and the people finally stop voting for socialism.

another truth is the health care industry is done in this country and health care will be a cash only product from now on. if you can pay you can get care, if not go sit on a government waiting list and be told what tests you are allowed to have rather then the ones you really need. this may actually get the unintended result of causing the side effect of having affordable health care in the form of cash only care.

That post is hilarious
If you made it longer could you fit even more factual errors into it?
It even has false assertions that are Clarksonesque in stature:woot:

[Onkel Neal]

Like I've said many times, we already have "free healthcare" in the States. Obamacare at least makes an attempt to get the luxurious poor to pay a share of the cost. (http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/calling-obamacare-socialism-makes-sense-analysis/story?id=20435162)

[Tribesman]

Like I've said many times, we already have "free healthcare" in the States. Obamacare at least makes an attempt to get the luxurious poor to pay a share of the cost. (http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/calling-obamacare-socialism-makes-sense-analysis/story?id=20435162)
That's the thing, insurance or no insurance it simply not something you can opt out of.
Sure you can choose not to go see a doctor, you can choose not to visit a hospital, but if you get scraped up off the road and taken to the emergency room you have no choice, they have to treat you and someone has to pay.
ACA is a mess, but it is an improvement in the mess that preceeded it.
Contrary to the Clarksonesque "greatest in the world" claim Webster made it only tops the list on expense, and while large number of people do travel to the US for treatment it is dwarfed by the numbers of Americans travelling to other countries for treatment(often to third world countries).

[Catfish]

It is just called demographic change.
Former wars saw to that .. :shifty:

[Bubblehead1980]

That's the thing, insurance or no insurance it simply not something you can opt out of.
Sure you can choose not to go see a doctor, you can choose not to visit a hospital, but if you get scraped up off the road and taken to the emergency room you have no choice, they have to treat you and someone has to pay.
ACA is a mess, but it is an improvement in the mess that preceeded it.
Contrary to the Clarksonesque "greatest in the world" claim Webster made it only tops the list on expense, and while large number of people do travel to the US for treatment it is dwarfed by the numbers of Americans travelling to other countries for treatment(often to third world countries).


Really, our healthcare system prior to ACA was fine. People complained because a minority was not covered but the quality was top notch.Some things needed to be fixed such as skyrocketing premium costs, dropping for conditions etc but overall, top notch.That is why so many from other countries come here or used to. Now, we will end up with substandard care.where will everyone go for top notch care? Sad as it is, I cant wait for the rationing stories to come out and the outrage from the idiots in the public.A 85 year old under an obamaplan denied a procedure, these headlines are coming.Palin did a disservice calling them death panels, it sounded hyperbolic but from what I understand there will be or is an advisory board. Sad as it is, it is coming. :/\\!!

[Tribesman]

Really, our healthcare system prior to ACA was fine.
Is that why both parties at all levels say it was a mess in desperate need of reform?

That is why so many from other countries come here or used to.
Which is dwarfed just by the numbers of Americans going to India for treatment.
If somewhere likeIndia and Thailand give better service to Americans than America does for simple surgical proceedures you have a serious problem.

Now, we will end up with substandard care.where will everyone go for top notch care?
Canada maybe? just like they go there for affordable medicine.

[Bilge_Rat]

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/7386/sqgh.jpg

[Tchocky]

The explicit debts exceed the yearly GDP. The implicit debts exceed the yearly GDP by several factors. When you want something, you need to afford it. If you spend more than you earn, you get problems. If you live beyond what you can afford, you get problems. If you do not earn what you want to spend, you get problems. No matter how shiny your desires and wishes are.

These are simple truths. Likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it. The US wants much more than it can afford.

Even today everybody wants a party, and nobody wants to clean. Everybody agrees that something must change, but nobody wants to be affected by changes and reductions.

If there is one thing I "believe" in, then it is Karma, the inevitable and unavoidable causal link between cause and effect. People and nations will get from their mishandling of finances and their political decisions exactly what they deserve. And it ain't gonna be nice, that much is sure.


^ All this not meaning that just saying yes or no to Obamacare would solve problems. Its just a symptom of the psychological deformation crippling politicians and ordinary people alike, and socialism being an inbred genetic feature of democracy from all beginning on, always necessarily ruining it from within. So many more revolutionary changes than just Obamacare yes or no would be needed. In all major countries/economies on the globe. Simultaneously, from a historical POV.

I see no reason to be optimistic there.

Christ, whatever then.

You do realize that laws have to be about specific things?

Can't just write "fix everything" and make that the law.

Also, for all the handwringing about debt you do realize that the ACA is very much a cost controlling measure designed to reduce the budget deficit?

[CaptainMattJ.]

Really, BH? Are you actually insinuating that the healthcare system before ACA, even healthcare today, is not a grotesque middle finger to anyone actually looking for affordable decent care? Have you SEEN the average hospital bill? I remember years ago i had to go to the emergency room for a peanut reaction to a food i had asked about and had been told was peanut free. 1200 dollar emergency room fee. I got one pill. I actually sat there having my reaction for 3 hours before they gave me 1 pill, and another to keep for later just in case. I was paying 1200 dollars to sit on an emergency room bed for 3 hours, STILL REACTING TO THE PEANUTS MIND YOU, before the doctor looked at my chart, looked at my throat, and gave me prednisone. Because the reaction never quite got to the point where i was turning purple trying to gasp for air, they decided i wasn't urgent enough to get a pill until 3 hours later.

Our 550 dollar a month healthcare plan didn't shed a penny towards it, either. AFAIK there's no other industry in the country that embezzles, scams, monopolizes, and price gouges on a more obscene scale than healthcare, except the banks. And the health insurance companies price gouge so blatantly in front of our government. And up until ACA the government stood there and did absolutely nothing. You wanna know why every other first world country has DRASTICALLY lower healthcare and medication costs? Because other countries dont allow that kind of jaw-dropping monopolizing and price gouging happen, especially not in something as critical and important as their healthcare systems.

But we should totally let them do their own thing, cause it somehow worked before (not really). Let them monopolize healthcare, jack up their prices to obscene rates, and then deny coverage to people who really need it. The insurance and pharmaceutical companies have privatized in its entirety our healthcare system and turned it into absolutely nothing more than a business. Healthcare is not and should never be a business. The actual physical well being and health of every american citizen and in fact every person on this planet should never, ever be JUST a business. Look at what it has done. There are very few insurance companies because they have monopolized their business. They then buy out hospitals, pharmacies, and all the equipment our healthcare system needs, and jacks up the prices to preposterous and grotesque amounts.Then they jack up prices on their insurance policies and deductibles, and since they're the only guys in town its either them or nothing. Our medication, which costs so very little to produce, has profit margins of 1000-2000%. Imagine if gasoline or electricity cost 2000% more than what it took to actually make it. Nobody would be able to afford anything. But since apparently living is just a privilege to some people, we haven't done anything to fight them. Because the insurance companies jack up their rates to ~800 dollars a month for the average family (with deductibles that end up doing nothing for that family unless its a full-blown hospitalization), and of course not many people can afford that. So they go uninsured. Well,, life happens, and people get sick or injured. Those who are uninsured go to the hospital, and because theyre already low income, they cant afford the bill. So the taxpayer pays it. So the money that you pay that goes towards funding for the ACA actually gets put back into the coffers in the form of people either paying the fine for CHOOSING to be uninsured, or people not sticking the taxpayers with the bill they cant pay because they cant afford healthcare.

Healthcare is NOT a commodity. It deals with the real lives of 320 million americans. The ACA is not a permanent solution to our heathcare problems, at all. Not only are there flaws in the ACA but it never really addressed the actual ridiculous cost of healthcare in the first place. But by god its a step in the right direction.

Republicans, instead of proposing something even worth mentioning that ACTUALLY PROVIDES A SOLUTION, have cried and thrown a tantrum, and try to circumvent the law that was legally passed by not funding it (its still going to be implemented though). Pathetic. If you're going to criticize a step in the right direction, then please, at least give an ACTUAL alternative, rather than nothing. Doing nothing and simply repealing obamacare helps absolutely no one, in fact that was the problem in the FIRST PLACE. Wed be back to square one. And with no actual hope in sight. If you think its such a god awful detriment to the union then COME UP WITH A BETTER SOLUTION. Something that will ACTUALLY tackle the problem, and not anything less.

Unfortunately the american people should not realistically expect more from the republicans or the democrats than political tribalism and party politics. Its just absolutely pathetic.

[Ducimus]

I just found this, and it is undeniably funny.
Obamacare explained in one sentence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOPSbHnnyMs)

[Tchocky]

Funniest part is the Romney sign on her lectern while she makes fun of the ACA.

[Skybird]

Christ, whatever then.

You do realize that laws have to be about specific things?

Can't just write "fix everything" and make that the law.

Also, for all the handwringing about debt you do realize that the ACA is very much a cost controlling measure designed to reduce the budget deficit?
Cost controlling? A monopolist in blackmailing protection koney - the state - being in bed with a monopolistically-run business - "health" industry and pharmaceutical industry - delivering Americans a health care standard costing roughly twice as much per head than in Germany, and now costing even more people even more money - mandatorily? Why are people so eager to put foxes in charge of hen-houses?

Too big communities, too much cartel-stuff, too much lobbyism, too much monopolism, too much state, too much demand for more state, too much ignoring of the fiscal snowball disaster, too much bribery of voters by politicians, too much desire in voters to get bribed. Everybody wants to believe in Santa Clause, assuming that all those gifts come for free.

Meanwhile, the heap of price tags has outgrown the stockpile of gifts and presents. The giant hammer falls. We already can see its shadow in the sky. May take some more years til it impacts in the ground. But one day it will, and then its Sayonara all around.

It's all not to be solved within the existing system and with the established personnel and within the contemporary understanding of communal organisation, for the system is porked from A to Z, the communities are beyond any managable size, and the ruling personnel is deeply corrupted and has zero interest in achieving improvements that would necessarily include to make themselves dispensable.

The most social policy is the one that leaves people the freedom to earn by their work or own property what they need for a living, in fair dealing and trading with others, may it be customers or employers/employees, and so to come up for the costs of their living by their own work, and/or wealth. Anything and anyone interfering with this, may it be state, institutions, monopolists, "social" demands, must be crushed. What has ruined America's healthcare system and the social systems in Europe as well is lobbyism, hope for excessive socialist utopias, an intentional denial of most profound and basic rules of responsible economic and fiscal management, the basic principles of reasonable policy.

You cannot spend yourself out of debts. That is a myth, the blue flower of economics, the belief in fairies coming to your rescue. The only way in which lasting wealth - real wealth, not just bits of paper - is created, is by work, and canniness, foresight and preparation for bad times, living by what you can afford, not getting yourself into debts. That may not be sexy. But it is true. From generation to generation, it may slowly grow wealth that improves life for all. It may not be spread equal throughout society, but then: it does not have to, for the dysbalance is the motor of ongoing wealth production. The only thing that is distributed equally in socialist societies, is poverty and scarceness of goods.

[Tchocky]

Healthcare and pharmaceutical supply are not monopolies in the US. Not even close. So your basic premise is wrong.

As to saying it's costing more people more money. Yes to the more people, it will insure more of the population. It will cost some people more money, but you're forgetting that that money actually pays for something. Coverage of pre-existing conditions, caps on contributions. Things like that.

Also there's a focus on more preventative care, to make sure more money doesn't have to be spent later. I don't know why you're putting health in inverted commas.

EDIT - and leave it out with the "voting for Santa Claus" stuff. It's absolute rubbish and you know it.

In 2012 US voters had a choice between drastically lower taxes and someone who specifically promised to raise income taxes. They chose the latter. They chose to pay more for more services - not for free gifts. A plurality of UK voters in 2010 chose a party that promised austerity. As did German voters last month.

And for heaven's sake, the ACA is not a free gift.

[Bubblehead1980]

What? their own propaganda channel blew it.Dear Leader is going to be disappointed...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wCwXew9yGg

[Bubblehead1980]

Healthcare and pharmaceutical supply are not monopolies in the US. Not even close. So your basic premise is wrong.

As to saying it's costing more people more money. Yes to the more people, it will insure more of the population. It will cost some people more money, but you're forgetting that that money actually pays for something. Coverage of pre-existing conditions, caps on contributions. Things like that.

Also there's a focus on more preventative care, to make sure more money doesn't have to be spent later. I don't know why you're putting health in inverted commas.

EDIT - and leave it out with the "voting for Santa Claus" stuff. It's absolute rubbish and you know it.

In 2012 US voters had a choice between drastically lower taxes and someone who specifically promised to raise income taxes. They chose the latter. They chose to pay more for more services - not for free gifts. A plurality of UK voters in 2010 chose a party that promised austerity. As did German voters last month.

And for heaven's sake, the ACA is not a free gift.

:har::har:

[Armistead]

Healthcare and pharmaceutical supply are not monopolies in the US. Not even close. So your basic premise is wrong.

As to saying it's costing more people more money. Yes to the more people, it will insure more of the population. It will cost some people more money, but you're forgetting that that money actually pays for something. Coverage of pre-existing conditions, caps on contributions. Things like that.

Also there's a focus on more preventative care, to make sure more money doesn't have to be spent later. I don't know why you're putting health in inverted commas.

EDIT - and leave it out with the "voting for Santa Claus" stuff. It's absolute rubbish and you know it.

In 2012 US voters had a choice between drastically lower taxes and someone who specifically promised to raise income taxes. They chose the latter. They chose to pay more for more services - not for free gifts. A plurality of UK voters in 2010 chose a party that promised austerity. As did German voters last month.

And for heaven's sake, the ACA is not a free gift.


Here is what's going to happen. A majority of young healthy people will opt out and pay the fine, why millions of sick people join in. Insurance companies will see a massive increase in what they pay out, without enough money coming in, the result, premiums will go sky high....

Yes, we need reform, but seems Obamacare left out most the good stuff and implemented all the bad stuff.

[Oberon]

:hmmm:

I must admit I am struggling to see how a nation can make such a screw up of a free health care scheme...I mean, sure, our NHS isn't perfect, and it can be a financial sinkhole, but that's more to do with the money being syphoned off into directors and executives than it has with the idea of free health care. It's a good thing there wasn't this much drama here in 1946! :haha:

[Buddahaid]

I just had open enrollment at work and all of the preventive care is now at no additional cost thanks to Obamacare. No copay at all. That includes physicals, mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.

[Tribesman]

I just had open enrollment at work and all of the preventive care is now at no additional cost thanks to Obamacare. No copay at all. That includes physicals, mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.
Well, that's news to some.:03:
Come along young man, I am still waiting for you to enlighten me from my ignorance by your perfect knowledge of this legislation.
What is the matter? was that part of the legislation too hard, too complicated for you to manage even a brief summary?
Ok how about something simpler.
What are the provisions to ensure that something like sickle cell screening by the US PSTF is covered and the corresponding ban on insurance co payments for it?:hmmm:
Though to be accurate Buddahaid it isn't all preventative care only all approved preventative care concerning medical conditions in categories A&B, categories C&D still have copayments and deductables

[Skybird]

Healthcare and pharmaceutical supply are not monopolies in the US. Not even close. So your basic premise is wrong.

No. The whole business branch is one big monopoly. Thats why comparable heathcare standards cost Americans almost twice as much money than Germans.

That is a problem present everywhere. In Europe, in no other country drugs have so high price tags, like in Germany. Formally, there should be competition and market regulating prices itself. But that means little when market participants cheat and play foul. Abusing patent laws for example. And our politicians are in the pockets of the business lobby anyway.

You too easily fall for the superficial shine and put too much trust into the label they have attached to it. When reality is that this business branch is one off the most corrupted there is. Only energy, second hand cars and bio-patents on genetically altered seeds maybe rank worse.

I could recommend you literature on it, unfortunately all three books are German, by Austrian and German and Swiss authors.

Pharmaceutics and health insurrances are highly criminal businesses, to put it in plain English. Politics, as far as they have not been sacked by the lobbies, are lagging 20 or 30 years behind the state of things in Europe. In America its described to be even worse.

No monopolies, you say? Sleep on and have nice dreams. There is far more cartels than free market at work.

[Tchocky]

You don't seem to understand what a monopoly is. I'm wondering how basic to be here.

The industry more closely resembles a heavily regulated oligopoly than anything else - but even that isn't quite correct. This is the US healthcare sector I'm talking about.

In the UK you have a monopolistic system, but it isn't a monopoly due to the NHS being a state body. Words and definitions matter.

How can US healthcare be a monopoly when multiple corporations and hospital chains compete for business, multiple health insurance bodies compete for business? You say it's corrupt? You might be right but corruption is not an economic industry structure whereas a monopoly is.

Corruption is bad, a monopoly is also bad but that doesn't make them the same thing!

Prices are high due to a perverse incentive model, a skewed risk pool, and overly lax consumer protections. All of which the ACA at least attempts to address.

Edit - there's a load of stuff I could recommend you read as well. Such as - what's in the law and what it means.

EDIT 2 - For anyone talking about how "the people don't want Obamacare"

NYTimes: Closer Look at Polls Finds Views of Health Law a Bit Less Negative
http://nyti.ms/1aJd4xV

True, it's more unpopular than popular. But that includes people who think it doesn't go far enough. And no poll finds even a plurality in favour of shutting down the government over it.

[AVGWarhawk]

I just had open enrollment at work and all of the preventive care is now at no additional cost thanks to Obamacare. No copay at all. That includes physicals, mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.

You then received several subsidies?

[Tribesman]

You then received several subsidies?
You received subsidies every time you bought health insurance, employers received subsidies every time they provided it, you all paid subsidies to all the people who couldn't be arsed to buy any insurance.
Subsidies are not something that didn't exist prior to ACA.

[Skybird]

You don't seem to understand what a monopoly is. I'm wondering how basic to be here.

The industry more closely resembles a heavily regulated oligopoly than anything else - but even that isn't quite correct. This is the US healthcare sector I'm talking about.

In the UK you have a monopolistic system, but it isn't a monopoly due to the NHS being a state body. Words and definitions matter.

How can US healthcare be a monopoly when multiple corporations and hospital chains compete for business, multiple health insurance bodies compete for business? You say it's corrupt? You might be right but corruption is not an economic industry structure whereas a monopoly is.

Corruption is bad, a monopoly is also bad but that doesn't make them the same thing!

Prices are high due to a perverse incentive model, a skewed risk pool, and overly lax consumer protections. All of which the ACA at least attempts to address.

Edit - there's a load of stuff I could recommend you read as well. Such as - what's in the law and what it means.

EDIT 2 - For anyone talking about how "the people don't want Obamacare"

NYTimes: Closer Look at Polls Finds Views of Health Law a Bit Less Negative
http://nyti.ms/1aJd4xV

True, it's more unpopular than popular. But that includes people who think it doesn't go far enough. And no poll finds even a plurality in favour of shutting down the government over it.
Monopolism is the corruption - the cancer - of free market mechanisms.
Cartels are monopolists cooperating. Cartels influence the general price-building on the market, preventing free markets, and turning competition into show. And that is the case with pharmaceutical industries, and health service providers over here, and over there as well.
What laws say, is not the relevant thing. What is being done in reality, independent from whether the law allows it or not, wants it or not, is what counts. BTW, you may want to question the m,otives of those making the laws. Irt'S not as if they are free of from their own egoist drives. And lobbies and bribers sit in their most inner circles. The rules are made to the liking of those they once were meant to regulate.

#And is the state really the more competent regulator? Planned economies are a fetish of socialism, putting bureaucracy above free market. I am opposing this idea. History has proven it wrong, so very often. One should have the decency to finally learn the lessons. The problems we have today is last but not least due to the state/law-maker/politicians thinking it/theory can outsmart the market and forsee things so much better and regulate so much more competently. The violation of basic free market reasonability is the original sin that has led us to where we are today. And as Einstein already said: the kind of thinking that has caused a problem to build up in the first is very unlikely to produce the solution to it.

The law-maker only should be active regarding destroying monopolies, and preventing them.
The law maker also should not be allowed to print money. He is a monopolist himself - holding a monopoly for creating money out of nothing. This is one of the very basic roots of problems today.

I understand perfectly what monopolies are. Its just that I do not take something as granted just because it is written in a witty formulation on some piece of paper. Armies of bureaucrats are busy with watering down such formulations and adding appendices and formulations that make the formulation appear to say one thing, while allowing so very many other things and exceptions at the same time. Not to mention that the formulation itself has been left to lobbies to create and/or heavily influence them: making the fox the guardian of the hen-house that way.

I am a nihilist regarding these formal issues. But the term nihilism is often misused and misunderstood, and I refer to Camus himself when saying nihilism does not mean to not believe in anything. According to Camus it means to not believe in what just seems to be. And that are two completely different statements.

[AVGWarhawk]

You received subsidies every time you bought health insurance, employers received subsidies every time they provided it, you all paid subsidies to all the people who couldn't be arsed to buy any insurance.
Subsidies are not something that didn't exist prior to ACA.

The question was not directed to you Tribesman. This is not the White House Press Corp. You are not Robert Gibbs. Let him answer the question. Thanks.

And, as far as subsidies, I receive none. My pay scale does not allow it. For the cheapest plan of a family of 4 costs me $10K or $833.33 per month. If I did not already have healthcare provided by my place of employment I would not be able to afford the ACA.

[Tribesman]

And, as far as subsidies, I receive none
Of course you do, the whole healthcare system is run by subsidies, its why US healthcare takes more government money than any other system.

If I did not already have healthcare provided by my place of employment
employers received subsidies every time they provided it.
If you are getting something from someone who is being subsidised to do it then you are receiving subsidies.

[AVGWarhawk]

Of course you do, the whole healthcare system is run by subsidies, its why US healthcare takes more government money than any other system.


employers received subsidies every time they provided it.
If you are getting something from someone who is being subsidised to do it then you are receiving subsidies.


Wonderful Tribesman. Let's name it the other way. Tax Credits for healthcare. I do not receive any. But that has little bearing. The cost for a family of 4 at my pay scale is unaffordable for me. My budgeting does not include $8k for insurance. The unsubsidised annual premium is $8.955.00. Again, if I did not have healthcare coverage with my employer I would not be able to afford this. What I demonstrated above is not from my employer. This is just me working an insurance plan. Lets stop with the subsidy nonsense and look at the facts as presented on the subsidy calculator.


Here is a good link. Play with the subsidy calculator.

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

[Tchocky]

I understand perfectly what monopolies are. Its just that I do not take something as granted just because it is written in a witty formulation on some piece of paper.
You clearly don't understand. Take my word for it.

I am a nihilist regarding these formal issues.
Quite.

Your approach to word definitions is unusual.

Language is not a conspiracy against you.

[Mr Quatro]

Wonderful Tribesman. Let's name it the other way. Tax Credits for healthcare. I do not receive any. But that has little bearing. The cost for a family of 4 at my pay scale is unaffordable for me. My budgeting does not include $8k for insurance. The unsubsidised annual premium is $8.955.00. Again, if I did not have healthcare coverage with my employer I would not be able to afford this. What I demonstrated above is not from my employer. This is just me working an insurance plan. Lets stop with the subsidy nonsense and look at the facts as presented on the subsidy calculator.


Here is a good link. Play with the subsidy calculator.

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

What are the deductibles on your health insurance plan?

I see most of the plans on CNN/NBC etc include a $5,000 deductible. So if you do get sick what does that mean? That you have to pay the first $5,000?

I know if I have a wreck in my car that the insurance company will pay all of the damages except for $500 and that part is up to me to pay the garage, right?

But as we all know garages can be shady and charge you more with a little kick back if you use them for say a fender bender. How can health insurance be any different?

They will overcharge and expect to be paid back by the feds. I asked the local VA clinic about "obamacare" and they said, "we don't know yet what it will do for you" ...

In other words come back after it is finally working January 2014, but yet I see on TV that the VA is pushing for vets to sign up for "obamacare".

Now why would the VA be for "obamacare" I asked myself and then I realized that the VA is mostly free for veterans (unless you have a lot of money). Simple deduction they will now get paid back for all of their services to veterans.

One more problem is the five hundred (500) million dollars to be taken from medicare for the implimation of "obamacare". Where will that money come from?

I know one way it will come is from senior citizens having to pay for medicare which was $75 a month three years ago and has gone up to $125 a month and is expected to go up to $200 a month by January 2014 and that information does not come from the web, but from the social security office I talked to.

What will keep the cost of paying for people that don't have medical insurance ... did I say that wrong?

What will keep the cost of people now getting health insurance via "obamacare" that is what I mean?

What will keep that cost from going up year after year after year? These are real questions that no one can answer and this is why we should delay the healthcare act and study it more thoroughly.

They (the US Congress) interview sports stars for their drug use and question IRS agents about tea party exemptions getting no answers, but they can't sit down and hash out a better plan because they are wasting their time on other silly matters.

Have you noticed that when President Obama talks about his health care plan that he even calls it "obamacare"? Sounds kind of vain to me :yep:

This picture represents the time it will take to get you medical insurance to agree to pay for all your needs on "obamacare"

http://www.patriotfreedom.org/admin/uploads/skeleton%2050.jpg

[Tribesman]

Lets stop with the subsidy nonsense and look at the facts as presented on the subsidy calculator.


You brought it up.
Your calculator doesn't work for the subsidies on your policy as its your employer who is subsidised for your insurance.

[AVGWarhawk]

You brought it up.
Your calculator doesn't work for the subsidies on your policy as its your employer who is subsidised for your insurance.

No, you answered for another member that I asked a pointed question. Now, for the love of heaven.....

Let's try this....if my employer said he has no interest in carrying my HC anymore and I should go to the market place for coverage I would not be able to afford it at my current rate of pay to tax credit/subsidy ratio.

Let's try this.....I run my own business. I have a family of 4. I have no health insurance. As of Oct 1 I was told by law I needed to get health insurance. I sign on to the ACA sight to see a smiling woman indicating how wonderful this is. I input my gross income. I input all other required information. A magical unsubsidized/ zero tax credit number calculated on my income pops up. $10,000.00. This is not budgeted into my current lifestyle. I would think there are many others in the same boat.

Now, I input a single parent of 1 that makes less than $25k per year. It pops up, Medicade. Or in laymans terms, free.

[AVGWarhawk]

[QUOTE]What are the deductibles on your health insurance plan?

I see most of the plans on CNN/NBC etc include a $5,000 deductible. So if you do get sick what does that mean? That you have to pay the first $5,000?

I know if I have a wreck in my car that the insurance company will pay all of the damages except for $500 and that part is up to me to pay the garage, right?

But as we all know garages can be shady and charge you more with a little kick back if you use them for say a fender bender. How can health insurance be any different?

They will overcharge and expect to be paid back by the feds. I asked the local VA clinic about "obamacare" and they said, "we don't know yet what it will do for you" ...

In other words come back after it is finally working January 2014, but yet I see on TV that the VA is pushing for vets to sign up for "obamacare".

Now why would the VA be for "obamacare" I asked myself and then I realized that the VA is mostly free for veterans (unless you have a lot of money). Simple deduction they will now get paid back for all of their services to veterans.

One more problem is the five hundred (500) million dollars to be taken from medicare for the implimation of "obamacare". Where will that money come from?

I know one way it will come is from senior citizens having to pay for medicare which was $75 a month three years ago and has gone up to $125 a month and is expected to go up to $200 a month by January 2014 and that information does not come from the web, but from the social security office I talked to.

What will keep the cost of paying for people that don't have medical insurance ... did I say that wrong?

What will keep the cost of people now getting health insurance via "obamacare" that is what I mean?

What will keep that cost from going up year after year after year? These are real questions that no one can answer and this is why we should delay the healthcare act and study it more thoroughly.

They (the US Congress) interview sports stars for their drug use and question IRS agents about tea party exemptions getting no answers, but they can't sit down and hash out a better plan because they are wasting their time on other silly matters.

Have you noticed that when President Obama talks about his health care plan that he even calls it "obamacare"? Sounds kind of vain to me :yep:





Correct, you pay the first $5000.00.
Correct on the car damage. You pay the $500.00 deductible.
Yes, insurers have watchdogs for those attempting to overcharge. However, a new scam I have seen concerns insurance for ones pet. The vet charges more if it is on the insurance co.

I can not say anything about the VA. I would think the vets still get the care that was provided before and at the same cost. I believe it is free. I don't know.

As for the elderly, I know of two dropped by ETNA.

To be honest, the coverage of the medical will come from tax payers. I honestly don't know where anyone else would think it is coming from somewhere else. Also add that those already insured pay premiums for the uninsured. These premiums will probably go up

And yes, BO looks quite arrogant. But, to save some sort of dignity he must stand his ground. If he caves his presidency from here on out will be laughable at best.

[Sailor Steve]

I can not say anything about the VA. I would think the vets still get the care that was provided before and at the same cost. I believe it is free. I don't know.
I do. It is, if you have no other insurance (i.e too poor). If you do have insurance they bill it just like any other medical service does.

I don't know if that's going to change.

[AVGWarhawk]

I do. It is, if you have no other insurance (i.e too poor). If you do have insurance they bill it just like any other medical service does.

I don't know if that's going to change.

Looking at the exchanges and based on income the vet may be able to qualify for free Medicad as well as VA. Like anything else, everything is based on what you make.

We can say this based on my investigation, the healthcare for some will be free based on income(poverty level) and number in the family or more than likely the combination of both.

We can say some will not meet the criteria for tax credit/subsidy and will pay something. More than likely a bill they can not pay or do not want. Or both.

For some this will work out nicely. Specifically those with a pre-exisiting condition


At any rate, I went to the Hair Cuttery yesterday. I asked the lady cutting my hair about the Hair Cuttery's HC policy. She said it is bare minimum and does not qualify under the ACA. However, the Hair Cuttery was looking to assist in getting the employees on the ACA Market Place and pay for the plan at said ACA Market Place. My hair cut went up $2.00 :shifty: :haha: No seriously it did.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/obamacare-healthcare-exchanges-consumer/2013/09/30/id/528369?promo_code=F492-1&amp;utm_source=Test_Newsmax_Feed&amp;utm_medium=nmwidget &amp;utm_campaign=widgetphase1


Bronze plans: Offer the lowest amount of coverage — 60 percent of medical costs on average — but will have the lowest premiums.
Silver: 70 percent of costs are covered.
Gold: 80 percent of costs are covered.
Platinum: 90 percent of costs are covered, but these plans will have the highest premiums.
What does the application process involve?



The U.S. Department of Health and Humans Services has devised a three-page application (down from the original 21 pages) for individuals to apply (online or on paper). You will need to provide the following types of information:

Name and personal facts (address, Social Security number, date of birth).
Health status (pregnant, physical/mental conditions).
Employment status and household income level (using pay stubs or W-2 forms).
Current health insurance coverage (if any).
Permission to give an authorized representative or “navigator” access to application information.

Am I the only person that see's something wrong with one agency having all of this information available to them in one place?

Wait I am not through yet ... look at this little fact that everyone that does not have insurance by March 31st 2014 will be fined ...

How will they know if you don't have insurance? This amounts to a census to me, no longer will they need a census bureau operated by the Commerce department.

What if you don't report your income properly? A lot of questions here with no answers.

If you miss the March 31 deadline, you will be required to pay a tax penalty next year to the IRS — $95 per individual (or 1 percent of your income, whichever is greater), $285 per family. That fine rises to $325 per individual (or 2 percent of income), $975 per family in 2015. The penalty maxes out at $695 per individual (or 2.5 percent of income) and $2,085 per family in 2016.

After March 31, you can only apply for insurance if you experience a major life change, such as job loss, divorce, or birth in your family. The next open enrollment period (for 2015) will begin Oct. 15, 2014.



Boondoggle in the making and only the GOP care ...

part of the same US Congress that will constantly have to make changes to the affordable healthcare act of 2010 till the day they die or we die which ever comes first.

One things for certain we are born, we live and we die :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Still need the census. Some will not need to sign up as they qualify for Medicad. Some have their own insurance via work. However, all will need to provide proof of insurance with the tax returns.

If you do not report your income correctly you are fined. The IRS will audit you.

I do believe the ACA will be fluid and change. This is a first. It might be found original estimates of cost are much to low. We are then bent over for more cash. We might find the original estimates were high. When then hope for a cut in premiums. But don't bet on it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Still need the census. Some will not need to sign up as they qualify for Medicad. Some have their own insurance via work. However, all will need to provide proof of insurance with the tax returns.

If you do not report your income correctly you are fined. The IRS will audit you.

I do believe the ACA will be fluid and change. This is a first. It might be found original estimates of cost are much to low. We are then bent over for more cash. We might find the original estimates were high. When then hope for a cut in premiums. But don't bet on it.


That is the sad part, the 16th amendment is unamerican to begin with, fact we have to report income to the government and give a percentage of it without consent, now showing proof of insurance, it's just the most outrageous thing. Supreme Court, well those who voted for it should all be tried and imprisoned as well as those in congress who supported it and the fool who signed it.How anyone can be okay with this is beyond me, its just wrong.

[Tchocky]

Wait, Bubbles. You dislike viewing the Constitution as A living document - except for the parts you don't like.

[Tribesman]

That is the sad part, the 16th amendment is unamerican to begin with, fact we have to report income to the government and give a percentage of it without consent, now showing proof of insurance, it's just the most outrageous thing.
What's un-American about it ?
you had a revolution with the slogan no taxation without representation. you got the representation so you should be fine with the taxation
Taxation with representation, its what the founding fathers wanted, its un American to go against it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Wait, Bubbles. You dislike viewing the Constitution as A living document - except for the parts you don't like.

No, I accept that the 16th amendment is law unfortunately, but it's something the progressives rammed through back in 1913, the founders would have never been okay with it, it is unamerican for the government to get a piece of my income.Sales tax etc, okay, I purchase things, but taking a percentage of my income? its WRONG and essentially unamerican.How DARE you accuse me of believing in that garbage theory. No idea what you are talking about! I did not try say amendment means something different than what is says.I simply said it is wrong, should have never been and hope, one day we can do away with it if our people would rise up, perhaps we could.

[Bubblehead1980]

What's un-American about it ?
you had a revolution with the slogan no taxation without representation. you got the representation so you should be fine with the taxation
Taxation with representation, its what the founding fathers wanted, its un American to go against it.

Taking taxes directly from income is pretty unamerican, this was progressive crap pushed so would have money for WW I. The money feeds the beast known as the federal government. I would not expect you to understand though. How can people not think it is just wrong to have to turn over a portion of your income to the government? That goes against what this country was supposed to be about, the 16th amendment is a big part of our problem.

[Tribesman]

Taking taxes directly from income is pretty unamerican, this was progressive crap pushed so would have money for WW I. The money feeds the beast known as the federal government.
It goes back 50 years before that and then goes back 50 years before that too when that bloke who wrote the bill of rightsy things discovered that dreams tend to fall apart rather rapidly when they meet reality, which is something that happens to all revolutionary idealists after the revolution is over and they have to run things in the real world.

[Dowly]

Taking taxes directly from income is pretty unamerican[..]

This is being done today in many countries, and they do quite well. The money is spent
on funding things such as free school meal, free healthcare, free dental service and so on.

Is that REALLY so bad? :hmmm:

[TarJak]

This is being done today in many countries, and they do quite well. The money is spent
on funding things such as free school meal, free healthcare, free dental service and so on.

Is that REALLY so bad? :hmmm:

It must be because they are not American and are therefore unamerican. /sarcasm

[AVGWarhawk]

Taking taxes directly from income is pretty unamerican, this was progressive crap pushed so would have money for WW I. The money feeds the beast known as the federal government. I would not expect you to understand though. How can people not think it is just wrong to have to turn over a portion of your income to the government? That goes against what this country was supposed to be about, the 16th amendment is a big part of our problem.

It's the American way! Bubbles, realize the money goes to many other things the gov't oversees. Things you don't think about but use everyday. Sure, some of the money goes to things you don't like but a majority goes to things you do like. And need. It's hard not to see the bad. Try to focus on the good it does. You will have much happier days.

[Bubblehead1980]

This is being done today in many countries, and they do quite well. The money is spent
on funding things such as free school meal, free healthcare, free dental service and so on.

Is that REALLY so bad? :hmmm:

YES, not my job to pay for everyone else, or the next guys.They funded things via other taxes, my money should be my money, not forcibly taken just because I made it, if its taken by a reasonable sales tax, okay, but income tax is wrong.Really, it is irrelevant what other countries have, we were supposed to be different and were for a long time, if we are to survive, we must adjust some things.Liberty, economic liberty especially can only be achieved if we get rid of the 16th amendment and the bonus would be to starve the beast .

[Bubblehead1980]

It's the American way! Bubbles, realize the money goes to many other things the gov't oversees. Things you don't think about but use everyday. Sure, some of the money goes to things you don't like but a majority goes to things you do like. And need. It's hard not to see the bad. Try to focus on the good it does. You will have much happier days.


That is like saying, well the guy robbed me but he is feeding his family.No, it's not supposed to be the american way.Our "tolerance" allowed the cancer of "progressivism" to move in, we are almost dead from it, perhaps we will find the cure, many of us know it, just need to get everyone to wake up.

[Skybird]

This is being done today in many countries, and they do quite well. The money is spent
on funding things such as free school meal, free healthcare, free dental service and so on.

Is that REALLY so bad? :hmmm:
Not only does it take no state and no national politicians with their own fiscal interests to collect taxes, but you also do not mention the many ways in which said politicians and states waste, misuse, and steal such taxes. You also ignore that people today, the ordinary John Smith, nowadays pays more than half of his income for mandatory taxes and insurances, in Western states. More than half of the ordinary worker's or employee's income gets taken without them ever having agreed to that.

Before WWI, it was 5-8%.

Finally you ignore that politicians lie when they say the latest round in tax raises is needed to pay for infrastructure, education and such. The by far fastest growing leak in the fiscal system of states is - pensions, and debts interest services and debt refinancing.

And both will explode in the forseeable future. Leading to more money printing, more taxes, more money devaluing - and so: more debts, more taxes...

"Social affairs" is the most prominent single share in the German budget list,and I bet it is like that with most European states. That is no investment into the future, but is a strategy turning the face backwards and towards the past. It is a strategy that hopes to buy some more time before judgment day comes, to delay it until one has left the party, is no longer in office, will no longer be held responsible.

[eddie]

This is being done today in many countries, and they do quite well. The money is spent
on funding things such as free school meal, free healthcare, free dental service and so on.

Is that REALLY so bad? :hmmm:

Yes it is Dowly, especially to a Republican! There is no profit in that, so its unAmerican.

[CaptainMattJ.]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/2012-taxreceipt

Good luck trying to support the military, among all the things listed in the link above, on no income tax, bubblehead. Did you just assume the military runs on faith?

[Bubblehead1980]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/2012-taxreceipt

Good luck trying to support the military, among all the things listed in the link above, on no income tax, bubblehead. Did you just assume the military runs on faith?

Exactly, we don't need the huge military we have.The military we have is designed to maintain and empire basically, empires don't last, our time is up.We could fund a military to provide actual defense, have a large reserve and thats it, but that would starve the military industrial complex Eisenhower warned about so many years ago.

That was the whole point of the 16th amendment, to grow the government and give Wilson the ability to build anmilitary capable of mounting an meaningful intervention in a european war we had no business in.This legacy continues today, along with the massive socialism we have, need to starve the best if we are going to save the country.

[Dowly]

It must be because they are not American and are therefore unamerican. /sarcasm

CONSPIRACY!! :woot:

[Tribesman]

Good luck trying to support the military, among all the things listed in the link above, on no income tax, bubblehead. Did you just assume the military runs on faith?
Yep, that's where Madison ran into the wall of reality in the early 1800s.

Exactly, we don't need the huge military we have.
That's exactly what Madison would have said just before he said build me a big army and a navy and more guns and a better militia and proper officers. So much for the founding fathers eh?

[Sailor Steve]

Good luck trying to support the military, among all the things listed in the link above, on no income tax, bubblehead. Did you just assume the military runs on faith?
We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yep, that's where Madison ran into the wall of reality in the early 1800s.


That's exactly what Madison would have said just before he said build me a big army and a navy and more guns and a better militia and proper officers. So much for the founding fathers eh?


Okay, I am not saying no standing army, with today's threats we need a standing army, navy, air force. However, we dont need a military designed for maintaining an empire instead of defense.

[Armistead]

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

Yep, Eisenhower hit it on the head. Sometimes I think we would be better off with about 1/2 what we have, not like any nation gonna attack us and maybe we would stop invading nations and policing the world.

[AVGWarhawk]

That is like saying, well the guy robbed me but he is feeding his family.No, it's not supposed to be the american way.Our "tolerance" allowed the cancer of "progressivism" to move in, we are almost dead from it, perhaps we will find the cure, many of us know it, just need to get everyone to wake up.

Bubbles, the men and women before you paid their taxes. You enjoyed the benefits of their contributions. The kids today will benefit down the road from the original tax payer, you and others after us. What then is the American way? Selfish isolation from neighbors? No. As far as tolerance, are you faultless were there is nothing someone would have to be tolerant with? Sounds to me you just don't care for getting taxed but it is OK for you to enjoy the benefits of those that paid taxes before you. The balance sheet is not in your favor. Sure, plenty don't contribute. They make nothing. Then there are those make thousands and hiding it off shore. The one great option here in the US is freedom to renounce citizenship and move to another country of you liking. A group of people from Europe did this very same thing. They named their new land America.

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubbles, the men and women before you paid their taxes. You enjoyed the benefits of their contributions. The kids today will benefit down the road from the original tax payer, you and others after us. What then is the American way? Selfish isolation from neighbors? No. As far as tolerance, are you faultless were there is nothing someone would have to be tolerant with? Sounds to me you just don't care for getting taxed but it is OK for you to enjoy the benefits of those that paid taxes before you. The balance sheet is not in your favor. Sure, plenty don't contribute. They make nothing. Then there are those make thousands and hiding it off shore. The one great option here in the US is freedom to renounce citizenship and move to another country of you liking. A group of people from Europe did this very same thing. They named their new land America.


Yes and people have been getting robbed of their hard earned income since 1913 when this horrible amendment was ratified. No one should have their income directly taxed, it's wrong.Income tax is unamerican. No one has the right to tell someone what to do with THEIR money, period. That is not selfish, that is an individual right.

That is why we must save this country, it really is the last bastion of freedom, or was, its close to being extinct.Where would I move? europe? lol it's worse here than there far as taxes go. This country was supposed to be about the individual, not the collective.Sure, we could have a safety net paid with other taxes, but directly taking an income tax, esp one the goes up with the more money you make, is wrong and there is a reason the founders did not include such a monstrosity, it's anti liberty and unamerican, it just violates the basis of this country. The progressive trash caused this, it must be fought and undone if possible. Probably too late, too many people think collectively now, which is a large part of our problem.The indoctrination in this country by the average person blows my mind, then again, most people go to public schools, thats kind of the point of government education eh ?

[CaptainMattJ.]

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.
Yet after the colossal failure of the articles of confederation, the founding fathers gave federal supremacy its own clause in Article VI of the constitution over the laws of states (but of course was only ratified with the bill of rights proposed by anti-federalists, allowing a balance between the two extremes). A strong central government with individual and states rights is absolutely necessary to keep the union together. If we didnt, the states would be at each other's throats, running around and doing whatever they wanted, and we'll end up like we were right after the revolutionary war.

But if you take a good long look at the progression of this country, you'll see the reasons why our government is as active as they are today. Imagine if Abraham Lincoln hadn't challenged the secession of the south nor went through hell to pass the 13th amendment. Speculate all you want, the outcome would not have been good for anyone. Imagine if people were still being worked 18 hours a day in extremely deplorable work conditions with dirt pay and what amounted to unofficial slavery. Imagine if Monopolies and big business were allowed to do what they pulled in the early 1900s. Imagine if there was no minimum wage, if there was no social security, if there was no federally funded healthcare nor aid for the poor.

Federal government has gotten this way because of the way the American enterprises have abused and extorted the hundreds of millions of everyday americans. Federal government has gotten so involved because laissez-faire capitalism only ever ends up destroying and oppressing the working class, time and time and time again.

We started this country your way; hands off. And due to the idealistic nature of hands-off government, it failed the second it hit reality. So we changed it. Now some people argue its become too big. But, unfortunately, few who argue its too big also take into consideration the problems that prompted it in the first place. The american dream has, since the beginning of this country, been an unrealistic and adverse goal for the american people. It took hundreds of years before a working class american could expect to not have to work 18 hours a day, in deplorable conditions, for pennies.It took hundreds of years before blacks and other minorities could even hope of competing equally with whites in this country. It took hundreds of years to regulate out-of-control monopolies and corporate extortion of workers. It took hundreds of years to provide free education to every american, to provide assistance to those who got knocked off their feet, to allow people to retire and not have to work until they die. To give the elderly, our mothers and fathers, healthcare and safety in their old age.

It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yet after the colossal failure of the articles of confederation, the founding fathers gave federal supremacy its own clause in Article VI of the constitution. A strong central government is absolutely necessary to keep the union together. If we didnt, the states would be at each other's throats, running around and doing whatever they wanted, and we'll end up like we were right after the revolutionary war.

But if you take a good long look at the progression of this country, you'll see the reasons why our government is as active as they are today. Imagine if Abraham Lincoln hadn't challenged the secession of the south nor went through hell to pass the 13th amendment. Speculate all you want, the outcome would not have been good for anyone. Imagine if people were still being worked 18 hours a day in extremely deplorable work conditions with dirt pay and what amounted to unofficial slavery. Imagine if Monopolies and big business were allowed to do what they pulled in the early 1900s. Imagine if there was no minimum wage, if there was no social security, if there was no federally funded healthcare nor aid for the poor.

Federal government has gotten this way because of the way the American enterprises have abused and extorted the hundreds of millions of everyday americans. Federal government has gotten so involved because laissez-faire capitalism only ever ends up destroying and oppressing the working class, time and time and time again.

We started this country your way; hands off. And due to the idealistic nature of hands-off government, it failed the second it hit reality. So we changed it. Now some people argue its become too big. But, unfortunately, few who argue its too big also take into consideration the problems that prompted it in the first place. The american dream has, since the beginning of this country, been an unrealistic and adverse goal for the american people. It took hundreds of years before a working class american could expect to not have to work 18 hours a day, in deplorable conditions, for pennies.It took hundreds of years before blacks and other minorities could even hope of competing equally with whites in this country. It took hundreds of years to regulate out-of-control monopolies and corporate extortion of workers. It took hundreds of years to provide free education to every american, to provide assistance to those who got knocked off their feet, to allow people to retire and not have to work until they die. To give the elderly, our mothers and fathers, healthcare and safety in their old age.

It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.


Okay, I think you are misunderstanding what needs to be done.The government is so big, it is the problem now and one reason it is the problem, is that is has money coming in, feeding the beast. I don't want the government to stop us from having reasonable work weeks, or conditions but I do want them to stop screwing up the economy, which they have done with taxes and regulation and to stop stealing people's money.Also, needs to stop being in the empire business, but the only way to do that is to starve the beast.

Are you kidding me? The constitution was about a limited federal government.The founders knew the evil of a large, centralized government, and that the nature of men in government was to become tyrannical, they did their best to prevent this and it worked for a while. The federal government is meant to be limited, reserving most powers for the states and the people.

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.

All of that aside, a change is needed because things are not and have not been working.We must move away from socialism as much as possible, repeal the 16th amendment, respect individual liberities and save this country, it's the only way.More of this progressive cancer will just cause our downfall.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Lincoln did indeed outstep his boundaries and his powers. He even dragged the war on to get the 13th amendment passed. His boldness and his actions, though illegal, gave us the free union we have today, so that those of us living in this country can all call ourselves americans, under a single flag and as a single nation. History otherwise wouldve taken a very, very different path, possibly and more likely for the worst. The world would be a drastically different place had the union split in two, whether it be for better or for worse, nobody could possibly know for certain.

And that's all i gotta say about that. I'd also like to mention that we have too many threads on the civil war already and the arguments about it should probably be kept there so as to stay on topic and not make the mods frustrated.

[Armistead]

Are you kidding me? The constitution was about a limited federal government.The founders knew the evil of a large, centralized government, and that the nature of men in government was to become tyrannical, they did their best to prevent this and it worked for a while. The federal government is meant to be limited, reserving most powers for the states and the people.

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.



Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression. The feds should only do what states/people can't do for themselves. Look at the monster that was created in Washington. Now we have Obama forcing us to buy services.

I'm all for live and let live as long as you don't harm anyone but yourself or make me pay for your mistakes. IMO, you want to make love to a goat on your own property, go for it..

Honestly, I hate them all.

[Ducimus]

We weren't supposed to have a standing military, or so the founders mostly believed. I'm glad that they were wrong, and our military has always been subject to the civilian government. All that said, since the Second World War the military has been kept big mainly to support the defense industry, and has mostly been used to interfere in other peoples' problems.

I agree that the direct income tax is a bad thing. The Federal government was originally supposed to have two jobs - to unite the States against foreign powers and to arbitrate disputes between the States. That it now dabbles in every corner of our lives is a testament to how willing we are to pretend it hasn't turned into a bloated parody of what it was originally meant to be.

I'm up in the air on the subject of State-run healthcare, but I believe it should be done by the States, not the Federal Government.

Yep, Eisenhower hit it on the head. Sometimes I think we would be better off with about 1/2 what we have, not like any nation gonna attack us and maybe we would stop invading nations and policing the world.

:up::up:

Although, to be honest I haven't made up my mind on income tax being a good or bad thing. I do understand however, orginaly there was no income tax.


...
It took us so long to get where we are today. And the only reason for it is the actions of the people to rally forth our federal (and state) government to make resounding and monumental solutions to the plagues of this country and of its people. If you want to argue that the government is too big, reflect on our history before suggesting how to limit it.

Says the guy from the most progressive state in the union, with an obscene amount of taxes and regulation. How's that working out for ya?
http://www.howmoneywalks.com/web-app/

Just sayin'...

Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression. The feds should only do what states/people can't do for themselves. Look at the monster that was created in Washington. Now we have Obama forcing us to buy services.

I'm all for live and let live as long as you don't harm anyone but yourself or make me pay for your mistakes.
:up: (although, I'll still call it the Civil War. :O: )

[Sailor Steve]

I wish Lincoln the tyrant had known his proper place, respected states rights and not launched the northern war of aggression but he did, and 800,000 people were killed, many more left mentally and physically scarred for life.An entire section of the country was left in ruins, and suffered for years after.Part of the problems sill plaguing the south, can be traced back to the civil war.Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, imprisoned his critics, allowed for war crimes to be committed(scorched earth?) and like I said, left nearly a million citizens dead.Lincoln could have handled it differently, he wanted war and unfortunately, it worked out for the tyrant.
I've told you before, leave it for the Civil War threads. I even answered several of your claims, but you never answered back, yet here you are spewing the same crap again, changing the subject just so you can have your say unchallenged. Try having a real discussion for a change.

Exactly, our forefathers deplored the idea of a central controlling govt and that's exactly what we got after the war or northern aggression.
Goes for you too.

[Tribesman]

I would have thought that since "war of northern aggression" is a term pushed forward by some dumb racists in the late 1950s, that anyone with an iota of sense would avoid it like the plague. :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

How did a ACA thread turn to a Civil War discussion? :hmmm:

[Dread Knot]

I would have thought that since "war of northern aggression" is a term pushed forward by some dumb racists in the late 1950s, that anyone with an iota of sense would avoid it like the plague. :hmmm:

The expression "War of Northern Aggression" was coined to make the Civil War sound more like a war between two independent nations instead of an actual civil war. It always rankled the South that they were never recognized as such at home or abroad.

[nikimcbee]

How did a ACA thread turn to a Civil War discussion? :hmmm:

I think it's the same thing pretty much.:haha: It's job security for Steve.:O:

In regards to the thread, I had to change plans 2 years ago preemptive strike, as I had a "cadillac plan:shifty::dead:. Not sure how things work now though.

I thinks it's total BS, that there are these exemptions from it.

[Jimbuna]

I've told you before, leave it for the Civil War threads. I even answered several of your claims, but you never answered back, yet here you are spewing the same crap again, changing the subject just so you can have your say unchallenged. Try having a real discussion for a change.


Goes for you too.

I thought this thread was about Obamacare?

Shouldn't be anything on here referring to past presidents as 'tyrants' or 'wars of aggression' for that matter.

I pride myself in being a pretty tolerant person but when I've already PM'd someone asking for a change in posting behaviour and that fails to work I'm given no choice other than to draw a line.

No more warnings.

[Mr Quatro]

The thread did take a turn for awhile there, but back to Obamacare (I did like the passion of CaptainMattJ. post however)

Did you know that the emergency rooms in the United States operated on a five (5) billion dollar loss last year?

I say let the Uncle Sam give them ten (10) billion dollars a year to subsidize them and the heck with "obamacare" costing every man woman and child in America X amount of dollars, not to mention that the rules mandated by "obamacare" of the IRS having the right to take money out of your account to pay for this huge heath care bill (and they say put money in) is just one law (passed) away from being for the taxes you owe on quarterly schedule so they can have the money faster.

This "obamacare" is like an ice sculpture ... it will never be finished and in the end it will melt America down to it's core.

[Bubblehead1980]

I've told you before, leave it for the Civil War threads. I even answered several of your claims, but you never answered back, yet here you are spewing the same crap again, changing the subject just so you can have your say unchallenged. Try having a real discussion for a change.


Goes for you too.


Umm it was not me who brought up the civil war, it was CaptainMatt.I simply responded.Thanks

[AVGWarhawk]

Umm it was not me who brought up the civil war, it was CaptainMatt.I simply responded.Thanks

So anyway, there I was on the ACA exchanges and.......

[Sailor Steve]

Umm it was not me who brought up the civil war, it was CaptainMatt.I simply responded.Thanks
Yes, he brought it up. He even went a little overboard. You responded with your usual long-winded rant about how awful Lincoln was. You hate someone. Fine, but I've warned you before about using threads for your personal tirades, especially where they don't belong. Do it again at your peril.

[Tribesman]

Sorry for the OT , but just to clarify one point
The expression "War of Northern Aggression" was coined to make the Civil War sound more like a war between two independent nations instead of an actual civil war. It always rankled the South that they were never recognized as such at home or abroad.
I know, but the point I was making is that it was coined at the time when a certain lady made a little bit of fuss about sitting at the back of a bus.
If it was truly about foreign and domestic recognition of the confederacy you would find no shortage of examples of its use prior to the 1950s .
Its a term which just erupts in 1956 during the bus boycott in Montgomery.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sorry for the OT , but just to clarify one point

I know, but the point I was making is that it was coined at the time when a certain lady made a little bit of fuss about sitting at the back of a bus.
If it was truly about foreign and domestic recognition of the confederacy you would find no shortage of examples of its use prior to the 1950s .
Its a term which just erupts in 1956 during the bus boycott in Montgomery.

Sorry, this is not the Civil War thread. Clarify it in a PM.

[Mr Quatro]

Just found some real hope here that the "affordable healthcare act of 2010" can be delayed as long as the Congress is in charge and there is nothing the Senate or the President can do about it thanks to the Supreme Court and Justice Roberts ruling that this is a tax ...

Go ahead read it for yourselves ... no tax can't be justified except by the US Congress: http://www.examiner.com/article/obamacare-can-be-defunded-without-senate-approval
Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval


Dr. Harold Pease, an expert on the United States Constitution (http://www.examiner.com/topic/constitution), stated (http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2013/09/authority-to-refuse-obamacare-funding-belongs-to-the-house-alone/) that the authority in dealing with Obamacare funding belongs to the U.S. House, not the U.S. Senate and that the House is doing this all wrong.

Pease went on to say (http://www.libertyunderfire.org/2013/09/authority-to-refuse-obamacare-funding-belongs-to-the-house-alone/), “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. To fund anything, in this case Obamacare, first approval is required by the House of Representatives.”

“If that does not happen taxpayer money cannot be spent. The people, through their representatives to Congress, have determined, after a three-year closer scrutiny of The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), that it does not protect the patient, is not affordable and is not even workable; hence in the interests of the vast majority of the people needs to be defunded.”

[Webster]

This "obamacare" is like an ice sculpture ... it will never be finished and in the end it will melt America down to it's core.

that's one of the best and most accurate ways I have heard it described

wether you think its good or bad, right or wrong, boondoggle or great program, no matter which side you are on its obvious this thing will destroy health care as we know it. one side is in denial over how bad it really is and the other is utterly outraged by it but it will still happen no matter what the American people want or say about it so just remember that the next time you think voting and who you vote for doesn't matter.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just found some real hope here that the "affordable healthcare act of 2010" can be delayed as long as the Congress is in charge and there is nothing the Senate or the President can do about it thanks to the Supreme Court and Justice Roberts ruling that this is a tax ...

Go ahead read it for yourselves ... no tax can't be justified except by the US Congress: http://www.examiner.com/article/obamacare-can-be-defunded-without-senate-approval
Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval

Since when did the Dems care what the Constitution states? :hmmm:

[Tchocky]

Starting to sound like Bubblehead in here

[Mr Quatro]

Starting to sound like Bubblehead in here

without the pendulum there is no slang and without the ying there is no yang :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Starting to sound like Bubblehead in here

Well Tchocky, some like to drink the juice. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

without the pendulum there is no slang and without the ying there is no yang :D

Glad that was cleared up.

[Oberon]

Starting to sound like Bubblehead in here

Well, look at the posting stats for this thread:

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TarJak (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=226560) 1 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=226560&searchthreadid=207870)

[Tchocky]

Nine? I feel like an enabler.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, look at the posting stats for this thread:

Bubblehead1980 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=244569) 27 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=244569&searchthreadid=207870)
Tribesman (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=212404) 18 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=212404&searchthreadid=207870)
AVGWarhawk (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=219772) 16 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=219772&searchthreadid=207870)
Tchocky (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=213776) 9 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=213776&searchthreadid=207870)
Armistead (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=243362) 9 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=243362&searchthreadid=207870)
Skybird (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=210105) 6 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=210105&searchthreadid=207870)
Sailor Steve (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=227416) 6 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=227416&searchthreadid=207870)
Mr Quatro (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=309591) 5 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=309591&searchthreadid=207870)
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CaptainMattJ. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=248775) 4 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=248775&searchthreadid=207870)
Jimbuna (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=223849) 3 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=223849&searchthreadid=207870)
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soopaman2 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=284299) 1 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=284299&searchthreadid=207870)
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You have to much time on your hands.

[AVGWarhawk]

Nine? I feel like an enabler.

Working on it. :O:

[Oberon]

You have to much time on your hands.

Not at all, I learnt a little trick from HunterICX last night, left click on the number in the replies column on the topics page, and it'll give you some fun stats. :03:

The best thread to look at is the 'Four word story' thread:

Jimbuna (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=223849) 7,299 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=223849&searchthreadid=162766)
Reece (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=212662) 3,679 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=212662&searchthreadid=162766)
Vendor (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=239992) 3,110 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=239992&searchthreadid=162766)
BossMark (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=279480) 2,608 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=279480&searchthreadid=162766)
TarJak (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=226560) 2,156 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=226560&searchthreadid=162766)
Herr-Berbunch (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=263653) 2,061 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=263653&searchthreadid=162766)
nikimcbee (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=212491) 1,342 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=212491&searchthreadid=162766)
Feuer Frei! (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=249401) 870 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/search.php?do=finduser&userid=249401&searchthreadid=162766)

:dead:

[Jimbuna]

If that's a new trick I'd love to know what you'd class as an old one.

[Oberon]

If that's a new trick I'd love to know what you'd class as an old one.

Was new to me :O:

[Bubblehead1980]

Yes, he brought it up. He even went a little overboard. You responded with your usual long-winded rant about how awful Lincoln was. You hate someone. Fine, but I've warned you before about using threads for your personal tirades, especially where they don't belong. Do it again at your peril.


No, you are being unfair here.Stop censoring , the thread wasn't turning into a civil war thread and fyi, it's not about a hate of Lincoln, it is about what he did was wrong and it must be discussed, so when someone sings his praises, in the course of a debate, a response mentioning his crimes is warranted.Again, moderate please, not censor.

[Sailor Steve]

the thread wasn't turning into a civil war thread
So why did other people ask why it was?

and fyi, it's not about a hate of Lincoln
So why do you throw nothing but hate?

it is about what he did was wrong and it must be discussed
You calling people names is not about discussing what they did wrong, it's about you ranting. Discuss it all you want, but not here. Do it in one of the Civil War threads if you must, but leave it out of the others.

so when someone sings his praises, in the course of a debate, a response mentioning his crimes is warranted.
No, if it's off topic a request to take it somewhere else is warranted.

Again, moderate please, not censor.
As someone else said earlier, this was your last warning.

[Armistead]

I've told you before, leave it for the Civil War threads. I even answered several of your claims, but you never answered back, yet here you are spewing the same crap again, changing the subject just so you can have your say unchallenged. Try having a real discussion for a change.


Goes for you too.

Hey, I was 3rd or 4th on the topic, if it goes that long, I consider it the typical thread going off topic and join in. Is this not the typical standard behavior by most? Plus I connected it to a large out of control central govt more than the tyrant....I guess different rules for the big guys and lil guys....

I do feel bad about posting 10 times, also a lil touchy about the dog thing...

[Bubblehead1980]

So why did other people ask why it was?


So why do you throw nothing but hate?


You calling people names is not about discussing what they did wrong, it's about you ranting. Discuss it all you want, but not here. Do it in one of the Civil War threads if you must, but leave it out of the others.


No, if it's off topic a request to take it somewhere else is warranted.


As someone else said earlier, this was your last warning.

Really? So someone brings up something such as CaptainMatt did, you expect me to be quiet because you dont like what I have to say? Acting a bit like Barry here.Moderate Steve, don't dictate or censor, especially on those you disagree with.Abusing your "position" on the forum, you are usually fair but you are not being fair here.Warn away skippy.:salute:

[CaptainMattJ.]

:up::up:

Although, to be honest I haven't made up my mind on income tax being a good or bad thing. I do understand however, orginaly there was no income tax.



Says the guy from the most progressive state in the union, with an obscene amount of taxes and regulation. How's that working out for ya?
http://www.howmoneywalks.com/web-app/

Just sayin'...


:up: (although, I'll still call it the Civil War. :O: )

Yes, he brought it up. He even went a little overboard. You responded with your usual long-winded rant about how awful Lincoln was. You hate someone. Fine, but I've warned you before about using threads for your personal tirades, especially where they don't belong. Do it again at your peril.
So all californians are crazy liberal activists? Certainly not the case. In fact, in my hometown, Glendora, it was majority republican.

Say what you want but California has a bigger economy than texas, in fact our GDP is on par with Russia, and if California was its own country it would be #9 in economy in the world. In fact, California had the 5th largest economy in the world in the early 2000s. Imagine how great our economy would be if they legalized and taxed marijuana here :haha:. On the other hand, i think that California really is run by a bunch of idiots and die hard far leftists. I hate the governor, i hate sacramento, and i loathed Villaraigosa. That doesn't mean i hate the state. It can be a pain living here sometimes, as expensive and congested as it is. But i still really like it here for the most part. The weather is nice, some of the people are interesting, theres always something to do here, theres always people to see and places to go, it has beautiful national parks and wildlife, i have family here, and it would be difficult for me to live inland with no access to the ocean, i love the sea too much.

Steve, i did mention it, though it was brief and was not the focus whatsoever of my argument. I also asked in a seperate comment that the discussion go back on-topic as we already had enough threads and circular arguments about the civil war.

[Sailor Steve]

Really? So someone brings up something such as CaptainMatt did, you expect me to be quiet because you dont like what I have to say?
No, I expect you to help keep the thread on topic. I've also said in the past that this constitutes trolling because other, such as myself, can't argue with it without being accused of taking the thread further off topic. You get to play your games without challenge. No more.

Acting a bit like Barry here.Moderate Steve, don't dictate or censor, especially on those you disagree with.
It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. I'm glad to debate this, but I asked you several times to take it to a proper thread. I've also warned you several times about using terms like "Emperor" and "Tyrant". This is meant to be a serious discussion forum, not a place for you to rant. That said, ranting is also fine, but not in a thread about something else entirely. You can challenge someone else's statement without launching into a diatribe.

Abusing your "position" on the forum, you are usually fair but you are not being fair here.
I'm willing to let my boss decide that.

Warn away skippy.:salute:
I already told you that was your last warning. Maybe next time you'll listen.

[Sailor Steve]

Steve, i did mention it, though it was brief and was not the focus whatsoever of my argument. I also asked in a seperate comment that the discussion go back on-topic as we already had enough threads and circular arguments about the civil war.
Yes you did, which is why I said what I did. The bit about "going overboard" was only my opinion. You did nothing wrong.

[Admiral Halsey]

He actually threw Bubble into the brig?

[Jimbuna]

He most certainly did...but not before giving numerous warnings over a period of time, myself included.

[Armistead]

At least the brig avatar is pretty cool.....

{no, I don't want one.}

I've heard rumors of Neal's gorilla with the banana roaming the jail cells

http://www.ajsprofiles.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/gorilla-eating-banana.jpg

Crap, did I just go off topic........

[Dowly]

Was new to me :O:

Never knew that either. :woot:

[Onkel Neal]

Meanwhile, back on topic....

[antikristuseke]

I have heard tell of this beast "on topic" but can not say I have seen it... :D

[Admiral Halsey]

I hope he isn't in there for good as I was really looking forward to his TMO-RSRD mod/update.

[Dread Knot]

I hope he isn't in there for good as I was really looking forward to his TMO-RSRD mod/update.

The brig is only temporary punishment.

A keelhauling, however...

[Dowly]

Always sad to see something related to Silent Hunter be effected by something
that happened "elsewhere"(i.e. GT), but that's how it goes. Bubblehead, as I hear, had
been given plenty of warnings, he ignored them and so he was thrown to the brig.

[Mr Quatro]

I found this myth buster very helpful:http://progressiveandproud.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/if-acaobamacare-is-implemented-the-government-will-spy-on-me-and-have-access-to-my-bank-account/


The Republicans and the Tea Party are doing anything and everything to try and scare you about ACA/Obamacare.



One of the most frightening lies being told is that if people sign up for the health exchanges and buy insurance through them, the government will be given free access to a person’s financial information and bank account. Some politicians and Tea Party members even suggest that the IRS will be policing every American’s financial data. Privacy laws will be ignored. The government will be able to remove money from anyone’s bank account according to these fear mongers Guess what? It isn’t true. The government will not have access to your bank account. The IRS will not be able to go into your bank account and take your money without permission.

[AVGWarhawk]

helpful:http://progressiveandproud.wordpress...-bank-account/I found this myth buster very

Quote:
The Republicans and the Tea Party are doing anything and everything to try and scare you about ACA/Obamacare.
Quote:
One of the most frightening lies being told is that if people sign up for the health exchanges and buy insurance through them, the government will be given free access to a person’s financial information and bank account. Some politicians and Tea Party members even suggest that the IRS will be policing every American’s financial data. Privacy laws will be ignored. The government will be able to remove money from anyone’s bank account according to these fear mongers Guess what? It isn’t true. The government will not have access to your bank account. The IRS will not be able to go into your bank account and take your money without permission.
Mr Quatro is offline Add Infraction for Mr Quatro Report Post

Yes, they will just have a court order to garnish your wages for the healthcare. :salute:

[Ducimus]

I found this myth buster very helpful:http://progressiveandproud.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/if-acaobamacare-is-implemented-the-government-will-spy-on-me-and-have-access-to-my-bank-account/



As sources go, I would put as much stock in the credibility of a blog that starts with "progressive and proud" as i would Alex Jones.

[AVGWarhawk]

As sources go, I would put as much stock in the credibility of a blog that starts with "progressive and proud" as i would Alex Jones.

My understanding is a bank account is needed for direct withdrawal. The government probably does not want to spend billions tracking down delinquent account holders. The IRS has no issues garnishing wages for past due taxes. They will have no reservation holding any tax returns for delinquent healthcare accounts or any fines for those that do not produce proof of insurance. If anyone thinks that all will gladly pay each month on time for healthcare then I would suspect these same folks would purchase that bridge in NY.

[Bubblehead1980]

I found this myth buster very helpful:http://progressiveandproud.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/if-acaobamacare-is-implemented-the-government-will-spy-on-me-and-have-access-to-my-bank-account/


While it is true, there is no real enforcement apparatus for the mandate(far as I can tell) currently beyond recouping the fines from your tax return if you get one it would be no trouble for them to get a court order I am sure.Never underestimate the government.They most likely left it out to avoid the potential outcry but could see them taking people to court etc to recoup the fines.

[Oberon]

How can such a simple idea be screwed up so badly? :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

ObamaCare Stinks for Young People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKGAUdinK2o)

[Tribesman]

As sources go, I would put as much stock in the credibility of a blog that starts with "progressive and proud" as i would Alex Jones.
Does that credibility issue also work for your links?:yep:

[Armistead]

My understanding is a bank account is needed for direct withdrawal. The government probably does not want to spend billions tracking down delinquent account holders. The IRS has no issues garnishing wages for past due taxes. They will have no reservation holding any tax returns for delinquent healthcare accounts or any fines for those that do not produce proof of insurance. If anyone thinks that all will gladly pay each month on time for healthcare then I would suspect these same folks would purchase that bridge in NY.

I find it scary that healthcare pc system is connected with the IRS and SS system. I bet in the end it will cost the IRS more to collect fines than what the fines are.

I don't see how they can fine if the system doesn't work. Obama's speech yesterday was a joke. Find it funny he says if online doesn't work, you can call. If you call, they'll just mail you a crap load of forms that they say takes a lawyer to figure out and good luck figuring the best plan for you.

[Bubblehead1980]

I find it scary that healthcare pc system is connected with the IRS and SS system. I bet in the end it will cost the IRS more to collect fines than what the fines are.

I don't see how they can fine if the system doesn't work. Obama's speech yesterday was a joke. Find it funny he says if online doesn't work, you can call. If you call, they'll just mail you a crap load of forms that they say takes a lawyer to figure out and good luck figuring the best plan for you.


Makes no sense but far as can tell, as of right now the only real enforcement ability they have to collect fines is IRS witholding your tax return if you get one.That could and will likely change, thinking it was purposely left out so it did not seem to punitive, would have driven away what little support the law actually had when it was passed and now.

[Ducimus]

Obama's speech yesterday was a joke. Find it funny he says if online doesn't work, you can call. If you call, they'll just mail you a crap load of forms that they say takes a lawyer to figure out and good luck figuring the best plan for you.

You have a much stronger fortitude then I. Personally I can't even stomach listening to him anymore - at all. You know when he's lying, his lips will be moving.

[AVGWarhawk]

I find it scary that healthcare pc system is connected with the IRS and SS system. I bet in the end it will cost the IRS more to collect fines than what the fines are.



Hence the direct withdrawal. Most banks will honor a overdraft. They then go after the account holder for repayment and collect a fee. The Fed get's theirs. The onus of getting paid back is left at the bank level. Sweet deal. :yeah:

[Bubblehead1980]

I would love to know where they found the mindless drones who were standing behind in at that speech yesterday.Especially the chubby guy with the beard lol Wonder if DHS was off camera holding them at gunpoint? :har:

[eddie]

Just like when they forced people to pose with Gutless Dick Cheney Bubbles!:har::har:

[Ducimus]

http://mmogamerchick.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/yes-man.jpg

[nikimcbee]

So, did anybody sign up yet?:har:

Thank god the "silicon valley experts" will save the bamster.

http://1mut.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bad-Luck-Brian-meme-collection-1mut.com-17.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=KPrlODD7ChD2KM&tbnid=qj0Sbx-t46JFXM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2F1mut.com%2Fcategory%2Fbad-luck-brian&ei=151oUtXhEcyIkQfWo4FI&bvm=bv.55123115,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNGbkgZzk98mDioCyy2_fZlk8dDORQ&ust=1382674210161220)

Three cheers for the leader.

No, not you!:down:
http://www.should-know.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Kim-Jong-Un-02.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Y2BSs_ZKt_9xZM&tbnid=RwZf5NQ3VEWZkM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.should-know.com%2Fkim-jong-un%2F&ei=LZ5oUpA20M6RB7yMgbAB&bvm=bv.55123115,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNFD3nKEENcLEHC0IhFyPEVLH7e8ZQ&ust=1382674324119354)

Ours!:yeah::yeah::yeah:
http://uselesshumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/obama.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=odf3IBXGmWfbVM&tbnid=NHgDOTpHjdGB1M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fuselesshumor.com%2F2013%2F06%2Ffu nny-obama-hope-poster-parodies.html&ei=JZ9oUqqfD4aOkAeY_4GoAQ&bvm=bv.55123115,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNEp8FQaEVNosC2fiugdqo0rzVUkmg&ust=1382674389758778)

[Ducimus]

Truth About Obamacare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9r93OxpE8g) (Length 35:16 )
Obamacare facts explained by Stefan Molyneux. A comprehensive look at the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) and it's implementation.

[Platapus]

It is not looking good for Booz-Allen Hamilton :nope:

[nikimcbee]

We have our healthplan review at work now. A couple co-workers were really arguing over this.
One person said loudly" ...and all of this is because of obamacare!"

All of our costs are going up 6%:woot: our employee raise this year was 2%:har:.

three cheers for obamunism.:woot::woot::woot:

[Platapus]

All of our costs are going up 6%:woot: our employee raise this year was 2%


And how much do you think your healthcare costs would have gone up without the ACA? 10%?

It is not like the healthcare programs were working all swell and then all of a sudden the ACA came about and suddenly there were problems.

My contribution to health care also went up... but it went up a lot less than it has in the past 8 years I have been at this company. :yep:

[CaptainMattJ.]

And how much do you think your healthcare costs would have gone up without the ACA? 10%?

It is not like the healthcare programs were working all swell and then all of a sudden the ACA came about and suddenly there were problems.

My contribution to health care also went up... but it went up a lot less than it has in the past 8 years I have been at this company. :yep:
This.

The ACA, as it stands, does not address nor fix enough problems that the healthcare industry had and still has today. It's still much, much more than what republicans had proposed we do, and its still a step in the right direction. Remember, the ACA is not what democrats wanted. But even in a democratic majority, the democrats compromised and subsequently we were left with a bill that didn't really fix much. It DOES, however, allow people with preexisting conditions to obtain coverage, which is a huge victory for many AMERICAN CITIZENS who were essentially left to die for the profit of the already super-wealthy insurance companies. It DOES, though poorly, address the issue of the people who choose not to have health insurance and, through natural occurances in life, need healthcare, cant afford it, and dump the bill onto the taxpayers. The fee for those who CHOOSE to opt out is like an insurance premium guarantee that if that person needs healthcare that they don't dump the whole thing on taxpayers.

What we NEED, is a better bill. Republicans have been crying bloody murder, trying so DESPERATELY to repeal the bill, yet have proposed NOTHING beneficial for the obviously deplorable healthcare system. This issue is not new, this issue has not been brought about by obamacare, it wasnt fine before, it isnt fine now. It is one of the most defining and serious issues with this country today. The effects of an awful, capitalistic, business-like healthcare system are far reaching and devastating. More people are on some kind of prescription medication than ever before. The american people are some of the most unhealthy in the world. Preventative care, such as regular doctor visits and checkups, are not easily accessable to the average american even WITH insurance because insurance companies have the audacity to charge people 800 dollars a month for insurance and decide that regular old doctor visits, which are like 150 bucks alone, shouldn't be covered. Yet like the old saying predicts, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", yet the only thing insurance companies seem willing to pay for are hospitalizations, while at the same time have monopolized the healthcare industry and made it so unaffordable that the only realistic option is to pay for their deplorable services. The health and well being of the american people should be at the forefront of our legislation, yet the most progressive healthcare bill in decades is being relentlessly attacked, while no acceptable alternatives are being offered.

This is why this country falls on the ropes so often. Because party politics and tribalism is more important to the talking heads than progress. Compromise, contrary to what these useless bureaucrats seem to believe, is not always the answer. But obstructionism sure as hell isnt a solution in any way either. Both sides are always at each other's throats, always out to try and steal, manipulate, and supress votes rather than earn them. They never seem to be willing to stop their useless circular bantering, blatant lies, and embellishing of the truth, and actually do something beneficial for this country. Washington believed that parties would be our undoing and every day i live his predictions seem more and more real. When people are told they must choose a team, rather than decide on individual issues for themselves, they become sucked into a mob-mentality of always voting for your team regardless of how they would feel as a free-thinking, unbiased individual. And its one of the worst things about human nature, is the desire to run with the pack rather than, in this day and age, be an individual.

[Platapus]

If the GOP were truly interested in helping citizens, they would be working towards fixing the ACA. But that's not what the GOP wants. The GOP wants to kill the ACA to remove any possible legacy that might help the Democrats.

It is not about the citizens, its about what is best for the party. And that is the attitude that has driven me away from the GOP.

Party before country. :nope:

Not that the Democrats are innocent in this. The ACA will serve as an excellent example of why, when you have a majority in both houses you really can't just push through legislation without getting buy-in from the minority party. The majority party will not remain the majority nor will the minority party remain the minority party. That's just the way politics works.

[Wolferz]

The entire health insurance system is a scam any how. So what's the diff?

I already have medicare parts A and D that I get charged for from my disability stipend every month. Probably cheaper than a commercial health insurance but, like commercial health insurance, it doesn't cover enough of what doctors and hospitals over charge for these days.

It might have been more viable if they had overhauled the malpractice insurance carriers. Forcing everyone to sign up for a health plan is great for the insurance companies and that's all. The doctors might have started charging a decent fee if their malpractice rates weren't so bloody high which leaves all of their patients paying, indirectly, for their screw-ups.:hmmm::dead:

[August]

What they should have done is create a real National Health Care system instead of this abortion we have now.

[Armistead]

The high cost from a profit driven system with many snakes seeking to make a fortune.

The bigger issue is they're prolonging life at a cost that isn't sustainable.

We need a fix, Obamacare wasn't it......

[Bubblehead1980]

I am just enjoying the outrage over obamacare, I have been talking about this monstrosity since the day it was passed, it is garbage, plain and simple.The disaster that is the "roll out" of this law further proves why the government has no business in such important matters, because they are not and never will be capable of running such a thing.Perhaps we will get a decent president and congress sometime who can rid us of this cancer, put a decent health reform law in place, until then, guess we are stuck with this pile of garbage.

[Platapus]

What I think should have been done is an incremental restructuring of the health care system.

There are issues in which the GOP and the Democrats are in agreement. Things like getting rid of the pre-existing condition issue and purchasing insurance across state lines.

The Democrats should have concentrated on these isolated changes that both sides could agree upon. Make those changes and wait for the market/economy to stabilize. Then, incrementally, implement other changes and wait for stabilization. Rinse and repeat.

But no. The decision was to make drastic changes, without really knowing how the unscientific economy will react, and while at the same time isolating and antagonizing the GOP.

In my opinion, this was a very short-sighted and frankly stupid decision on the part of the Democrats. They. Blew. it. Were the Democrats so short-sighted that they believed that they would maintain the majority in both houses?:nope:

For the first time in a long time, the Democrats were in a position to work with the GOP on items that both parties were in agreement. But instead, the Democrats, now that they controlled both houses and the presidency, decided that now was their time to push a drastic plan. :nope:

Well, we have seen what happened. I don't agree with how the GOP has reacted to the ACA but I can understand it. I wish the GOP could put country before party, but I can also appreciate their reaction to a Democratic political slap in the face.

What pisses me off is that with a little maturity on the side of the Democrats, this could have been a small win-win issue.

As a result of how the Democrats handled this, we have two very unfortunate results

1. A health care plan that does not do what the Democrats wanted (watered down)
2. An engaged and motivated opposition party (GOP) that will do anything they can to "get even", now that they are the majority party in the house.

This was unnecessary, if the Democrats would have handled this better. Just because you have a majority does not mean that your side gets to dictate. It will work up until the next election and then if your side loses (as what happened in the house), all of a sudden you have a political party that controls the budget AND is pissed off. Not a good state to be in.:nope:

I despise what the GOP is doing, but in all honesty, the Democrats brought it on themselves. It could have worked. It could have been a win-win situation. But the Democrats got greedy and impatient. Two things you can't afford in politics.

Either there are no experienced political advisers in the Democratic party (doubtful) or , more likely, their advice was ignored.

I would like to see the ACA fixed. There is a lot that needs fixin. But if politically, due to the immaturity on both sides, this is impossible, I would be in favour of scraping the ACA only if both parties will agree to re-do the ACA II from scratch, but do it right. In my opinion, that means incremental changes that fix specific issues.

Right now, I feel that our Congress is nothing but a Confederation of Dunces.

[Armistead]

The Dems really had a chance to address healthcare, but shoved this broken monster down our throats. That's the problem with govt doing about anything, they pass something totally broken, then spend years trying to fix it, instead of passing something that can work from the start.

[Wolferz]

The Dems really had a chance to address healthcare, but shoved this broken monster down our throats. That's the problem with govt doing about anything, they pass something totally broken, then spend years trying to fix it, instead of passing something that can work from the start.

The only healthcare package congress cares about is their own.:hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

The entire law is imploding. Many are being cancelled with the policy they like. These policies are not up to the standards set by the ACA. No one is grandfathered in. Its simple math. Everyone needs to be shelling out a certain amount for this to work. Not sure when this law will really be studied and the ramifications of said law will be realized but it will take years to have any viable plan. The past three years to set up a website has been nothing short of abysmal. There was simply no forethought. It was hope for the best since day one. The administration should be ashamed. BO signature healthcare plan? Day 28 and nothing is working. :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

It was hope for the best since day one.

Insert Obama "Hope" campaign poster here.

[AVGWarhawk]

So was "Change". You are required to change your HC plan because your current plan does not comply. Funny, the bait and switch was quite good on this one. By the way, Benghazi was just a riot over a video gone bad. :doh:

[Ducimus]

So was "Change". You are required to change your HC plan because your current plan does not comply. Funny, the bait and switch was quite good on this one. By the way, Benghazi was just a riot over a video gone bad. :doh:

http://www.politifake.org/image/political/0912/obama-obama-hope-and-change-political-poster-1261844240.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Honestly, many screamed how stupid the US looked as a result of the government shutdown. It pales in comparison to this launching of a signature HC plan. Sebelius should be shown the door.

[Onkel Neal]

The entire law is imploding. Many are being cancelled with the policy they like. These policies are not up to the standards set by the ACA. No one is grandfathered in. Its simple math. Everyone needs to be shelling out a certain amount for this to work. Not sure when this law will really be studied and the ramifications of said law will be realized but it will take years to have any viable plan. The past three years to set up a website has been nothing short of abysmal. There was simply no forethought. It was hope for the best since day one. The administration should be ashamed. BO signature healthcare plan? Day 28 and nothing is working. :hmmm:

Yeah, I agree, 3 years to prep a site and system, and with the initial response being lower than expected, how did the govt get it so wrong? Oh, yeah, it's the govt.

Well, I'm certainly surprised that all the young, idealistic Obama supporters are not buying into their new health care system with enthusiasm.:O:

[AVGWarhawk]

Sticker shock. Many believed it would be free or darn near. The realty is the costs really cut deep into the beer fund. I was looking at MD's numbers. The state runs it's own HC site. A poultry 3800 have signed up. 85,000 where automatically enrolled into Medicaid. The balance sheets are not adding up. You know, there are websites that are already running and have been flawlessly for years. These sites sell HC insurance on the open market. All the major carriers competing. There was no reason to reinvent the wheel to push a mandate. The technology was already there. I believe many will fight signing up. Accept the fine. Many are feeling duped.

[Wolferz]

There are much easier and cheaper ways ....
to get a prostate exam.:timeout:

What what in the butt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU

[Ducimus]

Is it all unraveling for President Obama?
Talking Points 10/29 - Bill O'reily
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2781922834001/is-it-all-unraveling-for-president-obama/

EDIT:
I'm beginning to think that the way things are going, the Republicans are going to start looking justified in obstructing Obamacare.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't listen to O'Reilly or Fox anymore, but yes, Obamacare is unraveling and imploding. The voting public has been baited and switched. How could anyone believe that millions added to the systems heavily subsidized would lower rates? It is insane. Credibility? Of what little it had is now gone.

[Ducimus]

I don't listen to O'Reilly or Fox anymore,

Oh ill never deny Fox news is biased toward the right. I honestly look at foxnews and CNN every day. One right after the other. I will have to give points to O'Reily though at being articulate. I don't normally listen to him myself. I think he has a slight evangelical leaning if i remember correctly. He does get my attention when he's articulate in certain topics though.


but yes, Obamacare is unraveling and imploding. The voting public has been baited and switched. How could anyone believe that millions added to the systems heavily subsidized would lower rates? It is insane. Credibility? Of what little it had is now gone.

Your not going to find me disagreeing with you. Large overhauls are best done incrementally, and slowly. Obamacare as it sits now is too much, going too far, and going too fast. May as well say its being ramrodded down our throats.

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh, and to be sure, folks are not being cancelled. They are being transitioned. :doh: With attached new astronomical costs. :shifty: But gee, you are getting better coverage like maternity care. You need maternity care right Ducimus? :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

Oh, and to be sure, folks are not being cancelled. They are being transitioned. :doh: With attached new astronomical costs. :shifty: But gee, you are getting better coverage like maternity care. You need maternity care right Ducimus? :hmmm:

Yeah. In January. I'm not sure how this is going to work out. My wife and I are on our own separate plans. She has one from her work, and I from mine. It's been cheaper that way rather then add one of us to one plan or the other.

Open enrollment at my work starts next month. Frankly, im petrified at what I'm going to be seeing in my health care. The baby is most likely going to be on her plan, though that may change. In any event, one of our plans are going up due to dependant.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah. In January. I'm not sure how this is going to work out. My wife and I are on our own separate plans. She has one from her work, and I from mine. It's been cheaper that way rather then add one of us to one plan or the other.

Open enrollment at my work starts next month. Frankly, im petrified at what I'm going to be seeing in my health care.

You and much of America are petrified. Not all of America sits idly by depending on government to figure it out for them. Those that do would be the BO voters. :haha: I'm fortunate to have coverage via my work for the entire family. My boss, God bless him, always provided the Cadillac plan. The premiums are still part of my yearly income but it is handled by my employer. I get taxed on it. At the end of the day my family is covered. The only issue he is having at the moment is BC/BS is not providing any numbers for possible increase in premiums. They are coming. Somebody has to pay for the heavily subsidized and the 85,000 in the state of MD that have been automatically enrolled in FREE Medicaid.

[Wolferz]

More and more news articles are bringing to light exactly what kind of Flim Flam this BS ACA is.:down: In my estimation, it's just another back door tax being foisted on everyone.:stare: The worst part of the lie is in the name of the law. It should have been called the Unaffordable insurance tax.

To me, healthcare reform would better serve if they brought down the exorbitant fees these doctors and hospitals want to charge.

IE: My primary care physician bills my insurance at the rate of $140.00 per visit, for five minutes of work. Which equals out to $1,680.00 an hour.:huh:

My Medicare insurance only covers a small portion of that thanks to an exorbitantly high deductible.


Exactly what has this new law reformed!?
Maybe we should all just march out to the woods and die. That would fix everything.

[Platapus]

To me, healthcare reform would better serve if they brought down the exorbitant fees these doctors and hospitals want to charge.

Who is "they"? The government?

Just curious, how would you suggest either the federal or state government to do this? Are you really advocating giving the government the authority to tell business people how much they can charge for their services/products?

Suppose the government decided that you are being overpaid?

No. That would be a very dangerous precedent. :nope:

[Catfish]

Hey, in Germany we still pay 'taxes' for

1. The german fleet of pre 1914 - champagne is being taxed to support the german Navy; as William 2nd said "who has money for champagne can support the fleet".

2. The allied airlift to Berlin - Germany certainly had to pay for it, and so the parliament created an additional car tax to the already existing fuel tax, to finance the airlift.

We still pay for both. Taxes, once created, will never be taken back :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

We still pay for both. Taxes, once created, will never be taken back :yep:
"Taxes are never levied for the benefit of the taxed."
-Robert A. Heinlein

[Jimbuna]

Hey, in Germany we still pay 'taxes' for

1. The german fleet of pre 1914 - champagne is being taxed to support the german Navy; as William 2nd said "who has money for champagne can support the fleet".

2. The allied airlift to Berlin - Germany certainly had to pay for it, and so the parliament created an additional car tax to the already existing fuel tax, to finance the airlift.

We still pay for both. Taxes, once created, will never be taken back :yep:

Not doubting what you state but how are you still paying taxes for something over one hundred years ago?

[Madox58]

Income tax in the U.S.A. started around WWI.
It was said to only last to aid the War effort.
Once it was passed?
:har:
GFL getting it removed!

[Catfish]

Read it. Thoroughly.

http://fusion.net/leadership/story/calling-obamacare-socialism-makes-sense-analysis-102590

[Ducimus]

In my estimation, it's just another back door tax being foisted on everyone.:stare:

From what I understand, we are subsidizing this fiasco. Which as near as i figure it means that when you boil all the fat away, that all the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's will now have health insurance, and we will be paying for it. Freaking welfare state is what this is. I don't make much money, but I worked for every cent I have, and everything I own was from my own efforts. I have always earned my own way, and I have never asked anyone for anything. So the thought of me shelling out some of my money for the benefit of some lazy pieces of feces pisses me off.

All things considered the entire situation gets a mighty one fingered salute paired with a Foxtrot Uniform from me to Obama and the Democrats who foisted this crap.

[TorpX]

Read it. Thoroughly.

http://fusion.net/leadership/story/calling-obamacare-socialism-makes-sense-analysis-102590
From your source:

"In fascism, the government doesn’t own the means of production, but they do control it — and that’s what’s happening with our health care programs and these reforms.”

So, you're saying it's fascism?

[AVGWarhawk]

From what I understand, we are subsidizing this fiasco. Which as near as i figure it means that when you boil all the fat away, that all the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's will now have health insurance, and we will be paying for it. Freaking welfare state is what this is. I don't make much money, but I worked for every cent I have, and everything I own was from my own efforts. I have always earned my own way, and I have never asked anyone for anything. So the thought of me shelling out some of my money for the benefit of some lazy pieces of feces pisses me off.

All things considered the entire situation gets a mighty one fingered salute paired with a Foxtrot Uniform from me to Obama and the Democrats who foisted this crap.

That is in part but many were already on medicaid for free. The other aspect is the folks with pre-existing conditions. There will be a huge influx of people being able to get treatment. Many of these will be highly subsidized. The only way to afford this is jack up premiums and get the healthy young enrolled....PLUS....see to it that thousands get canceled for sub par insurance as dictated by the ACA. This forces higher premiums. So yeah, you can't keep that plan you like. The fix is in. America is just starting to smell the coffee. Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread? :hmmm:

I think they gave up on GT a long time ago.

[CaptainMattJ.]

I think they gave up on GT a long time ago.
I think most people have given up on having a reasonable discussion in GT and honestly on the internet in general. There seems to be an overwhelming lack of reasoning and argumentative skills on the whole, while there seems to be never ending amounts of stubborn, pig-headed bantering. There seems to be almost no one left who is actually willing to consider anything that isn't what they want to hear.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

This website sums up everything wrong with GT and the internet in general, and why arguing never ends up getting anywhere nor changing anybody's mind. Ive really considered just bookmarking the website and linking it whenever someone tries to manipulate a debate in such ways, instead of me responding at all.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't know, I have discussions with people in GT and in real life and we don't agree a lot of the time. I can handle that. Some people cannot.

[Tribesman]

Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread? :hmmm:
Perhaps they see people throw out stuff like...
the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's ...
and they think that some of the clientele on GT is not worth debating in any rational fashion.
Though as you note, those rather disparaging stereotypes were probably all already paid for under the previous system you had.:hmmm:

But I think the core of the issue over ACA is that most of the "cheerleaders" wanted a system like the noted "liberal" August supports, not the cop out compromise that was passed.

[AVGWarhawk]

Perhaps they see people throw out stuff like...
the getto mammas', crack whore's, and Juanita's with anchor baby's ...
and they think that some of the clientele on GT is not worth debating in any rational fashion.
Though as you note, those rather disparaging stereotypes were probably all already paid for under the previous system you had.:hmmm:

But I think the core of the issue over ACA is that most of the "cheerleaders" wanted a system like the noted "liberal" August supports, not the cop out compromise that was passed.

Yes, those colorfully described folks are already in the system. I believe the new influx automatically signed up for medicaid are those with preexisting conditions. I do not know what noted liberal August supports. The law may not have been a compromise if the bill was actually read before the vote. The website up and running as it should have been after 3 years and $600 million spent. The American public not lied too about being able to keep their plan. Grandfathered in as it were. The law subsequently changed that rendered the once grandfathered plans null and void. Premiums increasing and not decreasing $2500 as peddled by the President. What has been set up is a forthcoming government bailout for the ACA. The young that need to sign up will more than likely take the penalty for the first few years rather than sign up because of sticker shock. The entire system is in shambles. Yet, not one word has been spoken about reducing the cost of healthcare. We have the typical tax and spend elite handle the healthcare like anything else. Tax and spend. Throw money at the problem. Your money.

[Ducimus]

That is in part but many were already on medicaid for free.

Good point. I forgot about medicaid.


The other aspect is the folks with pre-existing conditions. There will be a huge influx of people being able to get treatment. Many of these will be highly subsidized. The only way to afford this is jack up premiums and get the healthy young enrolled....PLUS....see to it that thousands get canceled for sub par insurance as dictated by the ACA. This forces higher premiums.

Which means we are paying for it just the same.


So yeah, you can't keep that plan you like. The fix is in. America is just starting to smell the coffee. Where are all the cheerleaders we had in the original Obamacare thread? :hmmm:

You mean Obama lied? Shocker. :shifty:


EDIT:
I don't know, I have discussions with people in GT and in real life and we don't agree a lot of the time. I can handle that. Some people cannot.

Personally, I draw a distinct line between Internet, and real life. When discussing anything in real life, you have facial expressions, tones of voice, and body language. In real life, there are two topics i tend to avoid. Politics and religion. Which isn't to say I haven't discussed them in real life, i just try not do. More often then not, you know just how far to discuss it, when to let it go, and when to just disagree. Because the person your talking to is right there in front of you, and personally I don't discuss much with someone I don't already know, and no we don't always agree.

Internet is different in my book. You have NONE of what I described above. So i'll call it like i see it, because theres not much else to go on; and truthfully, I don't have much desire or patience to argue anything on any forum for very long. If you let yourself go at it too long, you end up wasting A LOT of time, writing a bunch of crap aimed at someone you really don't even know, have never met, and in reality, could probably give two cents about. In fact, you don't even know their name. All for what? Getting the last word in? Stoking ones own ego? It can almost be likened to intellectual masturbation. I tend to keep my posts short for this reason, and I skim or gloss over stunningly long walls of text, also for this reason.

Arguing on the internet. I'm just not really into it anymore, so I don't put much time in it. Getting the last word in, will net me nothing but wasted time. Just my nickles worth on that subject.

[AVGWarhawk]

Good point. I forgot about medicaid.



Which means we are paying for it just the same.



You mean Obama lied? Shocker. :shifty:




Yes, we pay for it just the same but quite a few are not welfare queens. These are folks that could afford or have insurance but a preexisting condition is not paid by insurance. The insurance industry has worn out the nonpaying preexisting condition ploy IMO.

Yes, he lied. But, perhaps he was just reading what the teleprompter was scrolling. This then makes one ask, "Just what does this guy know?" He seems to know nothing at the most convenient times.

[Wolferz]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/Wolferz_2007/internet_argument_616.jpg

'nuff said?

Obamacare is just like any other program the government sticks its nose in.
Too much, too soon. Over bearing, clumsy and just crap all the way around. Designed for one purpose. Putting money in the pockets of rich investors. In other words, politics as usual.
After all, it was the wealthy elite who started the medical boondoggle we know today.

[August]

Sebelius should be shown the door.


That's a problem I have with this administration. Every time they screw up one of them takes the public stage to claim responsibility but there never seem to be any consequences for it.

It seems to be the modern political equivalent of "my bad". That fake apology that's used to avoid any real ownership of a mistake.

[Platapus]

When a politician states "I take full responsibility", what they actually mean is that you should not talk about it any more.:nope:

I would love for the press to respond to "I take full responsibility" with "What does that mean Senator/Representative/Mr. President?" and wait for an answer.

Perhaps this is a question the citizens need to start asking.

Of course the whole idea of a politician being responsible and accountable is laughable at the start... Except that fewer and fewer of us are laughing.

Speaking of which, in Virginia, we are having an election on Tuesday. It will be interesting to see exactly how many people are unhappy with the state government. In a democratically elected government, there is only one poll that really counts.

The difference between what people tell pollsters and how they vote can be surprising.

[Armistead]

Totally agree with the above, when someone declares they take responsibility, it's just code that no one is going to lose a job.

This morning I bet I heard a dozen times "the American people voted for Obamacare", but fact is the program is hardly what we voted for....

I don't see the GOP winning the pres office anytime soon unless things get real bad. They're too divided..... I think they're many that believe in the principles of small govt, but they're also socially liberal. As long as the GOP connects radical religious principles to the platform, forget it...

[Bubblehead1980]

After a count, 14 people I know have lost their insurance, all under 30, I can not find a plan on the exchanges even close to the low prices were paying before since obamacare requires them to carry things on their policies they do not want nor do they need, but big brother says they do.Around half of them voted for obama both times.Normally I would gloat, but it's just sad watching this play out yet it makes me angry as they are just shocked and confused when they refused to listen to those of us sounding the alarm on this many and his policies for five years, especially this one.They refused to do research on him and think independently instead of buying into the identity politics and emotional driven propaganda from obama and his loyal band of ignorant followers.SMH, sad:/\\!!

[Platapus]

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government. :/\\!!

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip. :/\\!!

[Wolferz]

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government. :/\\!!

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip. :/\\!!


And here I thought it looked more like a trapezoidal parallelogram trying to solve its own hypotonuse.:hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government. :/\\!!

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip. :/\\!!


Without us taking away from the discussion, which is about obamacare, I will say Reagan is the only one who made a real effort but due to the cold war, he was forced to spend to win.Yes, his military budget increased but he rebuilt the US military and I know his detractors will try to say his efforts did not lead to the end of the cold war but they did.Instead of "dicking" around with them as every President since end of WW II had, he called them out, confronted communism head on.This contributed in a major way to the fall of the soviet union.

Fact is, we will never see the small government we want again because too many depend on the government for their job, or welfare benefits, healthcare etc.The Federal government was NEVER supposed to be the factor in the daily lives of americans that it is, but sadly it is entrenched now and about half of this country that votes will never let it be rolled back to where it needs to be.Best can hope for is vote for the real, small government, libertarian conservative candidates who will do their absolute best.Rand Paul is a great example, would see things rolled back as much as possible, of course it depends on who controls congress as well.A "regular" Republican and especially a Democrat(their ideology is about a large, centralized government) will never deliver what we need.

The Bush years and especially the obama years are just absolute proof of why we must do our best to to make the federal government a non factor in our daily lives.Hopefully with the disaster of obamacare will get us a bettewr congress next year and a decent president in 2016 it will keep the Dems and RINO types out of power long enough to facilitate a real recovery.

I do wish we could get the momentum to repeal the Federal Reserve Act and 16th amendment, starve the beast of it's money and thus it's power, but doubt it will happen anytime soon, if ever.Too many Americans are too ignorant to even know why this needs to happen.

[Armistead]

The Dems talking about all those signing up, but in every state I've seen, probably 99% of those joining are those going on medicaid...Course Dems are saying once the website works out, millions will join the private sector....

[Bubblehead1980]

The Dems talking about all those signing up, but in every state I've seen, probably 99% of those joining are those going on medicaid...Course Dems are saying once the website works out, millions will join the private sector....


Really, if it were not such a threat to the economy I would get a laugh out of this, how some are trying to defend it because obama is their savior then how those who were dumb enough to believe him are just angry and confused b ut difficult to do so when have known and now it is further confirmed what I and everyone else who oppose this law have said, it's only going to hurt the country and unfortunately, this is only the start of the pain many will feel due to this monstrosity of "law", just sad our nation was stupid enough to let this happen.

[Tribesman]

The Dems talking about all those signing up, but in every state I've seen, probably 99% of those joining are those going on medicaid...
That must be a real bugger for those states who chose to opt out of the expansion, it means they don't get the funding which is there to help cover the increased numbers which were expected.

One question.
Does the ACA get rid of the 2003 law which prevents the government from engaging in normal business practices with the health industry in regards to purchases?
For example, are they still required to pay massive corporations a fixed price per tablet regardless of if they are buying one pill or a billion of them?

[AVGWarhawk]

The Dems talking about all those signing up, but in every state I've seen, probably 99% of those joining are those going on medicaid...Course Dems are saying once the website works out, millions will join the private sector....

I think sticker shock will turn many to pay the fine first year. Many who have been canceled are seeing premiums jump by quite a bit. Enough where their budget can't carry it. Let's face it, many were told for three years that they can keep their plan. That is what they budget for. Many where told the premiums would go down $2500 for a family of 4. This is what people budgeted for. As it turns out, the increase per month is nothing short of a new car payment. People did not budget for that. But, in the Dems eyes those canceled plans were horrible and the mean old insurance company should be ashamed. The Dems believe everyone needs maternity coverage. CDS abuse coverage. Millions don't need this coverage but are forced to pay for it.

[AVGWarhawk]

That must be a real bugger for those states who chose to opt out of the expansion, it means they don't get the funding which is there to help cover the increased numbers which were expected.

One question.
Does the ACA get rid of the 2003 law which prevents the government from engaging in normal business practices with the health industry in regards to purchases?
For example, are they still required to pay massive corporations a fixed price per tablet regardless of if they are buying one pill or a billion of them?


From what I understand the only funding to the states would pay for the states website and folks operating it. Good question. Need to check that out.

The ACA law is 2000 plus pages. We could ask Harry Reid about government practices under the law but I'm certain Reid and all the others don't know for failure to read the bill. I'm certain none know what the charge is for anything.

[Ducimus]

I have lost faith that the GOP is for smaller government. I can't remember any GOP president, in my lifetime, that moved for smaller government. All the Republicans and Democrats want to do is make specific parts of the government smaller (cut funding) while increasing other parts (increase funding).

It would not be all that bad if it was a zero gain, but both parties want to expand "their" favourite parts of the government more than cutting the parts they don't like.

End result from both parties -- increased size and cost of government. :/\\!!

The political spectrum in the US is not accurately depicted as a straight line (left, center, right) but more a mobius strip. :/\\!!

Personally I attribute the growth of federal government under both parties as the aftermath of 911. It wrote the professional politicians working in federal government a blank check. Frankly, I'm having a hard time remembering how things were before 911.

[Betonov]

Frankly, I'm having a hard time remembering how things were before 911.

Your biggest problem was the president getting a blowjob.

[Tribesman]

From what I understand the only funding to the states would pay for the states website and folks operating it. Good question. Need to check that out.

No, the extra funding(10% of the cost) is for those who would be just above the poverty level and those who are below the poverty level but above the States level for coverage.
If you look at somewhere like Arkansas that covers a huge segment as is locally set at only 17% of federal the poverty level.

Personally I attribute the growth of federal government under both parties as the aftermath of 1776.
Fixed.

[AVGWarhawk]

No, the extra funding(10% of the cost) is for those who would be just above the poverty level and those who are below the poverty level but above the States level for coverage.
If you look at somewhere like Arkansas that covers a huge segment as is locally set at only 17% of federal the poverty level.




Tribesman, can you send me the link for the additional Fed help if a state does design and implement their own site? I can not find any. From what I recall the option was on the table to have the Fed run the site or the state run their site. There was no benefits for either.

[Armistead]

Your biggest problem was the president getting a blowjob.


Amazing how times have changed........

[August]

Your biggest problem was the president getting a blowjob.


No, our biggest problem was the president lying about said act under oath. If normal people do that it's called perjury.

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, can you send me the link for the additional Fed help if a state does design and implement their own site?
Cross purposes
It isn't about sites or exchanges, its about the Medicaid expansion, or rather the states which are rejecting the money for it and lumbering themselves with the cost of the uninsured who will fall above the state levels and not reach the federal subsidy level.
Kaiser is a good place for information.

[Bubblehead1980]

No, our biggest problem was the president lying about said act under oath. If normal people do that it's called perjury.


Thank you, that was always the problem, Republicans let the media spin it that they were outraged about a blowjob when majority were angry about Clinton outright lying under oath and to the american people in his infamous( "Let me tell you America") moment.I could care less he got a blow job, if obama was caught cheating, I would not care either unless he did his usual routine of lies and more lies.This country has grown up some on sexual issues since the late 90's but still far too uptight.I really could not blame Bill, imagine being married to Hillary? BLEH :har:

[Ducimus]

You have to admit, Clinton perjuring over a blowjob is really small fry compared to what's in the skillet these days.

[AVGWarhawk]

You have to admit, Clinton perjuring over a blowjob is really small fry compared to what's in the skillet these days.

Yep, schoolyard antics back in the 90's.

[Madox58]

Read the whole story about that Clinton BJ thing.
He didn't lie given the definitions he was given.
That anyone would allow such definitions? There's your lie!

[August]

You have to admit, Clinton perjuring over a blowjob is really small fry compared to what's in the skillet these days.

You have a point. I never thought I'd look back at the Clinton years with nostalgia but the present administrations constant and blatant lying makes even President Bubba look honest by comparison.

[August]

Read the whole story about that Clinton BJ thing.
He didn't lie given the definitions he was given.
That anyone would allow such definitions? There's your lie!

He knew that he was lying and he knew who he was lying to.

[Mr Quatro]

Do you remember when President Obama paid off some of Mrs Clinton's political debts a couple of years ago? I always thought that was some kind of payola thing and now it is reported that Mr Clinton and President Obama didn't even finish the golf games they were photographed at before the last election.

In other words they were just photo ops to make it look like they were friends ... if the devil couldn't deceive you he wouldn't try now would he?

[AVGWarhawk]

Do you remember when President Obama paid off some of Mrs Clinton's political debts a couple of years ago? I always thought that was some kind of payola thing and now it is reported that Mr Clinton and President Obama didn't even finish the golf games they were photographed at before the last election.

In other words they were just photo ops to make it look like they were friends ... if the devil couldn't deceive you he wouldn't try now would he?

They all do staged photo ops. I was tasked to set up two FEMA trailers during Katrina clean up for a photo op for Bush.

[Platapus]

You have to admit, Clinton perjuring over a blowjob is really small fry compared to what's in the skillet these days.

Remember we had Reagan before that. I still think his administration holds the record for number of convictions.

We really need more limits on Presidential Clemency. :yep:

[Wolferz]

Remember we had Reagan before that. I still think his administration holds the record for number of convictions.

We really need more limits on Presidential Clemency. :yep:

Nah, just more horny interns who like to add flavor to cigars.:03:

[AVGWarhawk]

Taken from a comment proceeding a article. I got a good chuckle.

The Affordable Boat Act

The U.S. government has just passed a new law entitled "The
Affordable Boat Act" declaring that every citizen MUST purchase a new
boat by April, 2014.

These 'affordable' boats will cost an average of $54,000-$155,000
each. This does not include taxes, trailers, towing fees, licensing and
registration fees, fuel, docking and storage fees, maintenance, or
repair costs.

This law has been passed because, until now, typically only wealthy
and financially responsible people have been able to purchase boats.
This new
law ensures that every American can now have an 'affordable' boat of their own, because everyone is 'entitled' to a new boat.

If you purchase your boat before the end of the year, you will receive four 'free' life jackets (does
not include monthly usage fees).

In order to make sure everyone purchases an 'affordable boat,' the
cost of owning a boat will increase on average of 250-400% per year.
This way,
wealthy people will pay more for something that other
people don't want or can't afford to maintain. But, to be fair, people
who can't afford to maintain their boat will be regularly fined and
children (under the age of
26) can use their parents boat(s) to party on until they turn 27, after which date they must purchase their own boat.

If you already have a boat, you can keep yours (just kidding; no you can't).

If you don't want or don't need a boat, you are required to buy one anyhow.

If you refuse to buy one or can't afford one, you will be regularly fined $800 until you purchase one, or face imprisonment.

If you cannot (or don't want to) purchase an 'affordable boat' from a private business, you can buy
a
starter boat from the U. S. government 'affordable boat exchange.' Such
a boat will have the basic necessities (hull, oars or paddles) and will
only
cost 'slightly more' than a similar boat purchased from a private business.

Plus, since your tax dollars will subsidize the purchase of a boat
from the U. S. government's 'affordable boat exchange,' it will appear
that you are
getting a good deal.

Failure to use the boat will also result in fines. People living in
the desert, inner cities, or areas with no access to lakes are
notexempt.

Pre-existing conditions such as age, motion sickness,
experience, knowledge, nor lack of desire are not acceptable excuses for not using your boat.

A government review board (that doesn't know the difference between
the port side, starboard side, or stern of a boat) will decide
everything, including
when, where, how often, and for what purposes
you can use your boat, along with how many people can ride your boat.
The board will also determine if
one is too old or healthy enough to
be able to use their boat, and will also decide if your boat has out
lived its usefulness or if you must purchase
specific accessories(like a $500 compass) or a newer and more expensive boat.

Those that can afford yachts will be required to do so ... it's only fair.

The government will also decide the name for each boat. Failure to
comply with these rules will result in fines and possible imprisonment.

Government officials are exempt from this new law. If they want a
boat, they and their families can obtain boats free at the expense of
tax payers.

This includes lifetime maintenance and automatic adjustments for fuel
charges.

Unions, bankers, and mega companies with large political affiliations ($$$),

[Betonov]

And to keep with the eco-friendly politics of your current administration, this will be the floating calculator.... boat of choice :)

http://www.triyachts.com/images/triyachts-greenline_33.jpg

[Ducimus]

I just got off my ass and completed open enrollment for 2014. The cost of my health insurance plan has increased by 20%. If there is an "affordable" part with this health care act; as the word implies a reduction in cost, I am unable to find it.

Insert political rant here.