AI generated shipping question for RSRDC

[JoeCorrado]

I have searched for an answer but have not found one. Also posted this question in an existing thread with no response. So, thought I would try again here:

I have a question about adding randomly generated merchant ships and convoys back into RSRDC. It seems that contact reports is not enabled in the campaign and apparently there are no AI generated ships either.

I also would like to know if the frequency of these events can be modified? Default game makes targets too frequent I think, and RSRDC makes them too infrequent- I would like something in between if it is possible.

Is there a way of turning these options back on in the RSRDC without messing up all of the historic movements, especially the naval movements? I am not looking to edit the mis files if there is simply an option that could be turned on.

[Armistead]

Sure, you can add all the groups you want to RSRD, but best to do so creating your own mission file. As descriibed already, if you want to make changes an existing group in RSRD, do so with notepad.

Most of RSRD groups spawn once, stock spawns groups numerous times, just uses percentages for different ships and spawn chances. It also uses a lot of generics, so simply the group will spawn differently each time, but it still follows the same path. With each group you can set a time limt each time it spawns. Simply, you basically have a percentage factors and time factors for each value

As for contact reports showing enemy location, you have values for that as well.

There is no option other than adjusting groups in the mis folders

[JoeCorrado]

Thanks for the info! I won't be touching the RSRDC mis files then at all.

[Armistead]

There seems to be some debate that saving a file using the ME upsets the timing. I think Lurker stated it wouldn't be a good idea adjusting TF layers, because he has those historically timed to arrive. I have changed and saved with the ME testing using convoys and never noticed any changes. Course if you change speed, waypoints, you may throw off historical time, not sure it would matter to anyone with convoys.

I even replaced some of the convoy files in RSRD with those of TMO just to have more random traffic.

[CapnScurvy]

I've been working on the very thing you've questioned.....the merchant ship spawning percentages, and the time between having the game choosing when to "roll the dice" for spawning a particular merchant(s) ship route, or not. Both are very different than stock......with the chances much less likely to happen. It's my opinion, the spawning percentage rates, and time between spawning possibility, should be somewhere in-between what RSRDC uses and the stock game.

Lurker, has some merchant routes spawning only about 15% of the time the game asks for the dice roll (the time the game spawns the route ,or not).

The time between the spawn chance is sometimes many fold (sometimes 5 to 10x longer between spawning chances over stock).This has us finding merchant shipping being very scarce. What we do find becomes very predictable....because those few shipping route's become the only route's we find.

The same is true of RSRDC's Contact Report chances. The stock game set the "Report" chances at 50% for each spawn. RSRDC has most set well below 10%.....sometimes at 2 or 3% of a chance for giving a report. On those that are reported, Lurker made sure the area of the report is far from accurate. So, its just as well not to rely on the report at all. There's nothing wrong with that....but it is good to know.

What's got me looking at RSRDC's campaign files for the merchants, is the finding that any merchant ship travelling at below half its maximum rated speed, will not allow the manual sonar "hearing" of that ship when you go to the station yourself. Lurker made ships vary their speeds between waypoints (as they would in real life) with different speed settings for each leg between waypoints (the stock game keeps the speed constant at 9 knots). The problem is, if a ship rated at 18 knots maximum speed drops below 9 knots between two particular waypoints......you won't hear the ship with manual sonar use. Many of RSRDC's merchant speeds drop to seven and eight knots....some even go lower.

I like what Lurker as done with his campaign files for the Task Forces, but the merchants are another story.

[Rockin Robbins]

And in fairness, part of the problem is game mechanics, illogically making targets silent below half speed. We're always up against the game mechanics, it seems. Try to make something realistic and the game mechanics twist what you did into something unrealistic.

[Armistead]

And in fairness, part of the problem is game mechanics, illogically making targets silent below half speed. We're always up against the game mechanics, it seems. Try to make something realistic and the game mechanics twist what you did into something unrealistic.

Thus we unrealistic mods to get some degree of realism....:haha:

[CapnScurvy]

Yes, the issue is with the game mechanics.

It's reasonable to think a ship like a Nippon or T3 tanker, or a couple of the newer/larger merchant ships, would have a maximum speed rating of over 16 knots. I think the Nippon is rated at 18 knots.

Following the idea that you use the rated maximum speed for a ship as per real life....then you set reasonable travel speeds between points A/B, you would think your task of making a better modified game is complete. Yet, for some reason, the game doesn't recognize a merchant traveling below half its rated maximum speed when using the sonar. Least you won't hear it through the speakers, or headphones. If the ship's speed picks up to half its maximum rated speed.....you'll hear the engines turning as expected. Considering the game spent some time enabling sonar to provide at least a reasonable accurate bearing for a found target (unlike the mess it calls radar) yet, the manual use of the sonar is dependent on either unrealistic speed ratings or ship behavior, brings into question the games validity of being a "simulation".

It's a game....and not much more.

[JoeCorrado]

It's a game....and not much more.

And that is the exact reason that we should be able to enjoy it. I love the way that RSRDC recreates historic shipping for the military targets. I am always thrilled when I am in an area that allows me to witness, or even take part in a historically accurate event, well- accurate except that my sub would not have actually been there to interfere. :)

What I don't like, is what I consider to be unrealistically scarce merchant shipping. From the personal accounts of those who were there, as I read the books- crews did become frustrated at the lack of shipping in some patrol areas. But other patrol areas where considered prime locations to find targets. In RSRDC- even the area around the tip of Southern Formosa, the Luzon Strait, or off the Japanese coast are devoid of any shipping.

The response to a lack of shipping in ones patrol area was to patrol closer to land for coastal transports, or to risk hanging around outside a major port to find shipping at it's origin or termination point. That does not seem to hold true in RSRD.

Japan i an Island nation that relied on shipping to provide raw materials- in wartime that requirement is increased. If the RSRDC shipping model were accurate- Japan could not have engaged in even a limited war for lack of resources. Targets should be much more abundant than is available as it stands with RSRD. While I appreciate the accuracy of KNOWN targets as found in the archives, the fact is that these targets represent just a small sample of what should be available.

I don't claim to be any kind of a modder. I am a tinkerer at best and some of my tinkering results in disaster. LOL - As it stands now, my best option to actually enjoy the game is to remove RSRDC completely, much as it frustrates me to do so. I guess I am just getting too old to learn new tricks. :/\\!!

[CapnScurvy]

Before you go leaving RSRDC for something better....which I don't think exists for now. You could try modding only the merchant files found in the Data/Campaigns/Campaign folder. The files are based on specific years during the war, with specific naming like "42a", or "42b". Look for the "Jap Merchants" file, or the "Tankers" file of the various years. Open them with Notepad. I wouldn't bother with the "Coastal Merchants" files, their mainly setting up the Sampans and fishing routes.

As I pointed out, look for increasing the spawning precentages of the various routes, and the decreasing of minimum time between spawning events (open the stock files to see what they have done with the same parameters.....you'll get an idea of what needs to be done to increase route activity). You could change the "Contact Report" parameters as you go too.

Just don't expect to get things done in a sitting or two. There are hundreds of specific possible routes to change, but once the merchant routes are increased, I think you'll find a distinct improvement in merchant activity.

As Armistead said, don't mess with RSRDC's capital ship Task Force files. Any changes there could easily mess up the excellent work Lurker worked on for following historic operations.

Pull out the Campaign/Merchant files of his "RSRDC Patch_1" mod to try making your changes. Don't mess with the dates he has in the Patch (that's what the Patch is for anyway!). With some work, I think you'll find a better game play.

[Bubblehead1980]

I once had the same idea" not enough traffic in RSRD" as well until I learned how it works. The game is meant to be historical, sure lacks traffic in some areas, which i have added but there is more than enough traffic in RSRD at proper times.Luzon straits is pretty busy, must be missing traffic somehow.Yes, early war there are not many convoys(japanese didnt run many convoys then) but plenty of singles. Late war such as after april 45, traffic is slow, as it was.

My advice is to open up there layers, itll give you an idea of the shipping lanes.Not cheating as skippers were given intel on shipping lanes before patrol. Cheating would be running the sim through with the time filters to see movements but getting an overview of the shipping lanes in that time period.

Something it took me a while to figure out also, RSRD often seems to give you orders to a dry area but lurker knew his movements and there was a point.Example, I have been assigned to dry areas just off the main traffic lines and bored for 30 days of patrol, then boom, a task force rolls through and I end up bagging a carrier or heavy cruiser.Worth the wait? Absolutely. This is where the simulation aspect comes in.Lets face it, every boat did not always get a hot area on every patrol.Even in 1944, the busy year for US subs, not all had oustanding patrols, yes it was easier.The boredom is portrayed punctuated by moments of excitement. I thought this was not intentional but after it's happened a few times and I took a peak at the TF layers, compared them with the orders given at certain times, lurker did this on purpose.

Much like real life submarining, RSRD requires PATIENCE.

[TorpX]

I've been working on the very thing you've questioned.....the merchant ship spawning percentages, and the time between having the game choosing when to "roll the dice" for spawning a particular merchant(s) ship route, or not. Both are very different than stock......with the chances much less likely to happen. It's my opinion, the spawning percentage rates, and time between spawning possibility, should be somewhere in-between what RSRDC uses and the stock game.

Lurker, has some merchant routes spawning only about 15% of the time the game asks for the dice roll (the time the game spawns the route ,or not).

The time between the spawn chance is sometimes many fold (sometimes 5 to 10x longer between spawning chances over stock).This has us finding merchant shipping being very scarce. What we do find becomes very predictable....because those few shipping route's become the only route's we find.


Cap'n, could you elaborate on how often the "game asks for a die roll"? Without knowing how often the game checks this, it is impossible to make the campaign traffic rational.

[CapnScurvy]

Cap'n, could you elaborate on how often the "game asks for a die roll"? Without knowing how often the game checks this, it is impossible to make the campaign traffic rational.


Yes, I can. Give me until this afternoon. I've got some things to do this morning. :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

Thus we unrealistic mods to get some degree of realism....:haha:
Exacty right, and exactly why modders are completely unable to please everybody. Every move has an intended consequence, and at least three unintended consequences. Two of them are bad.:D

But I agree with CapnScurvy on this one. RSRD is the best we have right now. Editing the merchant files and leaving the warship task forces alone could result in a mod with enough random behavior to feel much more real.

The problem of history is in what it does not record. No record does not mean it didn't exist. But our recreations, based on the very incomplete history we have, yield unrealistic results if we require documentation.

Documentation is sufficient to establish that something probably existed, but insufficient to show that something did not exist unless the documentation itself states that it did not exist. We waste a lot of time pretending that it is sufficient for both.

[Armistead]

Exacty right, and exactly why modders are completely unable to please everybody. Every move has an intended consequence, and at least three unintended consequences. Two of them are bad.:D

But I agree with CapnScurvy on this one. RSRD is the best we have right now. Editing the merchant files and leaving the warship task forces alone could result in a mod with enough random behavior to feel much more real.

The problem of history is in what it does not record. No record does not mean it didn't exist. But our recreations, based on the very incomplete history we have, yield unrealistic results if we require documentation.

Documentation is sufficient to establish that something probably existed, but insufficient to show that something did not exist unless the documentation itself states that it did not exist. We waste a lot of time pretending that it is sufficient for both.

Honestly, I don't care for single merchants, don't even attack them, deleted most the files.

Here is what I can't quite figure, how groups respond when you're found out. More than not they simply slow down and do that damn silly helming, more rare, the ships will split in all directions, different speeds, while the escorts hunt, then regroup. This is great behavior. My PC with all my SH stuff blew, so can't do anything right now, but was testing some. I do seem to get different behavior if I set some merchants to elite, some poor, but not sure why. I thought ratings only effected the amount of sensor used, not quite sure if they effect other values or how connected to code.

The same with TF, how silly for them to slow down when they know you're there, but not always. Take RSRD's Kurita in the Bern, you attack it, it doesn't slow, keeps it high speed, think 22kts, so you really get one chance.

I also hate how if you damage a ship, the entire group often slows to match it's speed, but not always, many times they leave the ship behind.

Back to that helming, it hardly does nothing, I wish there was some way to increase the legs to a longer zig.

Hate Lurker left, RSRD is what it is, it needs a total update. The only way to do it properly is to touch 80% of the files, when you're done, you've overwritten RSRD so much, better to just add the few remaining files in your mod and not load RSRD. As far as I know, no one can get permission to rape and rework his mod.

I like my version of RSRD, edited all the crew ratings, added several ships, 100's of hard convoys, made most ports impossible to infiltrate, very strong subkiller groups, etc...

[CapnScurvy]

Without trying to circumvent Lurker's fine work (I thought he's had a long standing request of not using his mods incorporated into other mods) yet, I've not really found much on his "Permission" request. In mods past, I've had to change some of his files to either make them more accurate, or correct a problem with them when making some of my mods "compatible" with his (and he knew I did). He's also taken the liberty to do the same with mine (I still find some of my SCAF Recognition Manual images in his RSRDC work). So, explaining how a player could increase merchant traffic in RSRDC is purely instructional in nature, and not intended to disrespect his request of permission. Frankly, I've looked all through his RSRDC file documentation and have found only this:

Absolutely nothing found within the RSRDC may be used for any commercial product of any size, shape or form.

Below is a comparison of the two Random Group entries of the "42a_Jap_Merchants.mis" file:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/RSRDCtoSTOCK_zpsac1177e9.jpg

You'll notice there is no difference in the two 1st [Mission] paragraphs, except for the Year and Month entries. The RSRDC file is from the "RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1" mod (which is intended to overwrite any RSRDC version). The Patch is intended to correct the dates for the game allowing for some overlap in mission availability......DON"T MESS WITH THE DATES IN RSRDC. Nor, should you open the file in the games Mission Editor to make corrections to RSRDC's work. It apparently will change the dates Lurker so diligently worked on.....making them as the stock game has them. This is why Lurker warns about not making changes using the ME.....use Notepad to open, and save your changes to his files.

The second paragraph is the one I'll explain....the [RndGroup 1]

Be assured, these two files are referring to two completly different merchant routes. So, please realize this is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact is, RSRDC doesn't have a single merchant route that's comparable to the stock game....their all different in where they start, when they start, what ships are used, what speeds they travel etc. What's important to see is the general differences between them and what some of the specific entries mean.


GroupName=xx_xx_xxx
The name of the mission

Category=0
????

CommandEntry=0
Not sure what either of these two parameters do.

Long=xxxxx.xxxx
Lat=xxxxx.xxxx
Where the mission starts on the map

Height=0.000000
Unit's will start on the surface when at 0.000000

DelayMin=60
Minimum time taken between last check of spawning attempt, in seconds. This entry is usually kept at 60 seconds.

DelayMinInterv=xxxxxx
This is the maximum interval of time between the last check of a spawning attempt (in seconds), until the next chance is made. Notice RSRDC has this number doubled over the stock entry. For some of RSRDC's routes, this factor is many times the average stock period of time.

SpawnProbability=xx
The precentage of time's you'll actually get a spawn of the mission route when an attempt is allowed, after the "DelayMinInterv" period of time has passed. On average, RSRDC has this precentage set to below 50%.....Stock has it mostly over 50%. As in the two examples, RSRDC has 40% of the time you'll get a spawn....Stock has it at 70%.

RandStart Radius=0.000000
How far away from the Long=, Lat= map position the mission will randomly spawn, within a given radius.

ReportPosMin=xxxx
This is the minimum amount of time, in seconds, it takes to make a "Contact Report" on the mission route, after it's sucessfully been spawned.

ReportPosProbability=xx
The precentage chance of having a "Contact Report" made once a spawn is sucessful. RSRDC has this setting usually lower than 10%. Stock always has this set to 50% of the time.

The rest of the entries are somewhat self explainatory.

The 3rd paragraph [RndGroup 1.RndUnit1] is explained from a passage I copied from Peabody:

[RndGroup 1.RndUnit 1]
this is the first ship in the group

Type=102
Obviously the type of ship (102=Cargo). Found in the Roster/Names.cfg file.

Origin=Japan
Country from the Roster

Side=0
Side is taken from the DefSide.cfg in the Roster

CargoExt=1
External cargo from a list in the mission editor.
List:
0=Ext Oil
1=Fuel
2=Oil
3=Ammo Containers
4=Ammo Crates
5=Aircraft
6=Tanks
7=Trucks
8=TrapContainer
9=American Tanks
10=American Trucks
11=Ext fuel
12=Ammo
13=Engine Oil
14=Engine Fuel

CargoInt=0
Internal Cargo from a list:
List:
0=Freight
1=Ammunition
2=Engine Fuel

CfgDate=19420301
Date the ship is available

No=1
How many of this unit are added to the convoy/task force. You can add one at a time and this will be one, or in mission editor you can add 5 all at once and in the mission editor you will see an entry "American: 5XGeneric cargo 100%. So if you edit that by hand you can change 1 to 5 and it will add 5 of that type of ship to the mission. (I have not tested this with Notepad, but it does work with the mission editor). It the person that wrote the mission added the ships to a random group one at a time it will always be 1. That is the way I do it, so you can put in different settings for each ship.

Escort=false
If you add or change DDs, you should change this to True so the DDs will not travel in the columns but will actually act like Escorts and travel randomly out side the group. Normally for cargo ships this will always be false. Usually the only time you change it is for an escort ship such as a Destroyer.

SpawnProbability=100
The chance that this specific ship will actually be added to the group. You need to be a little careful here, if you add all ships at 70% but the Escort destroyers are set to 100% you may have all DDs and NO ships in the convoy. Or you may end up with seven DDs escorting 1 ship. By setting some ships at 100% and Generic, and others at 70% you can vary the convoy so it isn't the same every time you see it. I always make sure I have at least a few set to 100% so it isn't an empty convoy. (Don't confuse this with the SpawnProbability in the RndGroup1 entry. That one sets the probably that the entire group will spawn. The entry here determines if this ship is in that group or not.)

CrewRating=1
Just like the cargo it is a list of choices from the mission editor.
List:
0=Poor
1=Novice
2=Competent
3=Veteran
4=Elite

A good choice to make them Novice at the start of the war and increase to Elite as they get better at their task, and zig zagging and evading you.

========

It goes without saying, there are a lot of individual mission routes. If you just concentrate on the various year Merchant and Tankers .mis files....you'll be at it for quite a while. As I said, I'm working on a comprehensive change to the RSRDC merchant files now, with the plan on relaesing a new mod to overlay RSRDC v550.

[Armistead]

Capn,

Always wondered exactly what all crew ratings effect. Long ago I was told they only effect the amount of sensors used. Anyway, l noticed long ago almost all the merchant and capital ships used the competent rating, so I beefed them up, many vets and elite. It seemed clear they reacted different at elite, zigged better, evasion, repaired faster, etc. Can you say for fact what all ratings effect beside sensors....seems they effect about everything overall.

You know best about what you can do with his mod. I once asked about releasing changes to RSRD and several stepped up for him saying I shouldn't release anything that changed his existing work or included it, so I dropped it, except for myself. However, I don't see a problem making mods that simply add to his work, new mis files, etc.

[JoeCorrado]

Wow Cap'n THANK YOU so much for taking the time to explain how to tweak the mis files. I will take what you have shown here and give it a try. Your step by step explanation makes the mystery that seemed daunting and males it into a task that seems much more realistic for a novice like myself to attempt.

My very sincere thanks!

:yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

The way I see it, when you load up a mod it changes previously loaded mods. RSRD does overwrite TMO gameplay options, for instance. It is only reasonable that therefore it is okay to write mods that overwrite RSRD parameters too.

It is not okay to release them as "RSRD Reworked!" or in any way to imply that you've somehow taken over RSRD. It IS okay to release "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes to RSRD" mod. It can be loaded on top of RSRD if you want that change, but it does not change RSRD itself. If you unload "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes" you restore RSRD to Lurker's intention, just as if you uninstall RSRD you restore Duci's original intentions for TMO. I thought evil airplanes were Duci's crowning achievement. Lurker hated them so he tromped all over them.

The agreement was that Duci would work on gameplay and Lurker would do campaign. But that is not what happened and RSRD morphed into a supermod knowing no boundaries, not supplementing TMO but redefining its gameplay as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Just do it with respect for the original mod makers and in a way that leaves their products unmodified if people are perfectly happy with them unmodified.

We're providing additional choices, not eliminating old ones.

[CapnScurvy]

Yes I think "choices" are good for everybody. I'll admit, when I started looking through a couple of RSRDC's early war merchant/tankers campaign files I found a couple of errors in the Group numbering, and waypoint numbering sequence. It was a couple of days ago (and I tried to find it quickly today....but couldn't), but as I was scrolling down through one of the Merchant files, I found the RandomGroup number to be different than what the [Mission] number was. Meaning the RndGroup information wasn't going to be attached to the [Mission] it should have been. I also found the first "Waypoint" entry of another Group was numbered #2, not #1.....there were two #2 Waypoints listed. I'm not sure about the outcome, but when a Group's Waypoint doesn't start with the first waypoint......I'm thinking the group won't go anywhere, because it doesn't know where to start.

Having the SpawnProbability set to 15% or so.....or having the DelayMinInterv set so long in duration that the game won't look for mission spawning possibilities within a "blue moon", seems too unplayable to me. I said before, if some missions are rarely spawned, yet others are much more likely to be allowed to run their course......a predicitable pattern will emerge. You'll become too familiar with the few routes that are made available, while feeling you're the only ship in the sea while waiting on the others to spawn (if they ever will).

Correcting errors, tweaking percentages, and lowering elapsed time intervals should make for better game play for us all. More mission routes being run will create more variety. I'm guessing that's exactly what Lurker would have wanted too.

[Webster]

+1 on no permission needed to create a mod to mod other mods

any mod can be made to change other mods without permission but you just need to be sure to point out its a mod to alter the other mod and not imply its in any way endorsed by the other modder simply because they failed to object to it.

if its your mod and you say that then its in no way infringing on anything, you are just using another mod as a base for your mod to function so its not like you claim any credit for the work of the other modder, all you are doing is adding your own tweaks to customize or make the mod better in your opinion. you don't have the right to make the base mods files part of your mod so you need to keep that as a separate mod because the base mod does belong to the original modder and he does have the right to deny you the right to include his mod files in your mod release, you only have the right to release the files that you yourself mod.

even if a modder says I don't give my ok for you to make a mod that changes my mod, as far as I am concerned he has no say so in if you do or don't make that mod as long as you make no claim the base mods work is yours and you give credit to the modder who created it even if you don't thank him for it.

[TorpX]

Thanks much, Cap'n!

Your expertise is a great help to all of us.

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks Webster for waying in on the permissions question. Lurker hlb3's work is something to marvel at!! His pains taking efforts to rework the Campaign files stand out to be one of the best additions to the game!!

As I mentioned I've been looking at them and am struck by the shear magnitude of the work involved. He did most of this by hand to keep the Mission Editor from reassigning his dates.......it will cause us to do the same if we intend to tweak some of his files for better game play.

I have every intention of producing a mod to overlay his RSRDC_V550 mod with increased merchant traffic. As Webster points out, my plan is to have his mod reworked with the overlay that will give him the credit he so richly deserves, yet change a few things to my liking. Environment tweaks, Campaign files are just my beginning. My true thrust is to rework the manual targeting part of the game that I've started with Optical Targeting Correction and build on it. I see no reason why a target can't have multiple stadimeter points from which to measure from....starting with a better Recognition Manual. I also intend to rework how the interface of the game was designed, to allow for better, different inputs to the TDC. I've always admired Lurker's work with his added ships and planes (much of it gleaned from other modders) and wish to simply add to his work.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, with the real stadimeter you entered the height of the object you were measuring and the ONI recognition manual generally gave multiple heights on the ship.

After all, if he was far away you might use a cabin top because it was clearly visible when the masthead might not be. When you are closer in you might pick the masthead to increase the accuracy of the distance measurement, double-checking with a cabin height or deck height in case the masthead height were altered as the Japanese were known to do.

The higher the aspect you measure, the more accurate your distance measurement will be IF your record of the height is accurate. Unfortunately our recognition manuals didn't contain the majority of targets encountered and the ones that WERE identified in the manual were very frequently misidentified. That means the captain had the incorrect height. That means his distance measurement was very wrong.

The only thing that really got submarine targeting on track was ditching the stadimeter/ONI manual altogether and going with radar data. Then ID was unnecessary except for selecting spread and number of torpedoes.

Even with a giagantic target like the Shinano, Captain Joe Enright elected to leave the radar on and rely on radar data to plot his attack in spite of his clear knowledge that the Japanese could detect radar use. This speaks volumes about the relative usefulness of the stadimeter. And, of course, the Shinano would not have appeared in the manual anyway!

[Armistead]

+1 on no permission needed to create a mod to mod other mods

any mod can be made to change other mods without permission but you just need to be sure to point out its a mod to alter the other mod and not imply its in any way endorsed by the other modder simply because they failed to object to it.

if its your mod and you say that then its in no way infringing on anything, you are just using another mod as a base for your mod to function so its not like you claim any credit for the work of the other modder, all you are doing is adding your own tweaks to customize or make the mod better in your opinion. you don't have the right to make the base mods files part of your mod so you need to keep that as a separate mod because the base mod does belong to the original modder and he does have the right to deny you the right to include his mod files in your mod release, you only have the right to release the files that you yourself mod.

even if a modder says I don't give my ok for you to make a mod that changes my mod, as far as I am concerned he has no say so in if you do or don't make that mod as long as you make no claim the base mods work is yours and you give credit to the modder who created it even if you don't thank him for it.

Just so I have this correct. Say I edited all the crew ratings in RSRD, obvious using all his existing mis files, just changing the ratings in them, would that be OK? Course, the downside in doing something that simple, you've created a large mod that includes 80% or so of his existing files. I never liked the ratings of RSRD, so long ago I went through every file and adjusted them. Obvious, easy to do, but very time consuming. As far as I know RSRD uses competent ratings for all merchants and capital ships, it may seem unrealistic, but increasing the ratings of those to vet and elite, they respond more like ships should.

I also added several ships, probably created after lurker left, such as the Nagato and placed or replaced them as historically as possible. For instance, replacing the Fuso Lurker uses instead of the Nagato in Kurita's Center Force.I also reworked most the capital ports, more guns, searchlights, nets, mines, etc. I added more special missions, several of TMO's convoy layers and several mis files of my own.

As RR said, RSRD does rework many of TMO's sensors. Tater mades some fixes for some of these, but I thought they needed further tweaking, mostly radar, so you had a chance of pulling off night surface attacks later war. I've always used my own envs, but I'm finally close to that perfect night env. where I can pull off realistic night surface attacks and escape without screwing up day visuals.

I did several other things, sure some were off RSRD files. My point is, by the time I was done, I had used and tweak 90% of RSRD to my liking. Rather than load mine on top of his, I just added the remaining RSRD files I needed into my mod, so I only load my one mod over TMO "RSRD tweaked". Obvious, this wouldn't be allowed, but I hate loading numerous large mods over each other. If I released a mod, it would be like loading RSRD again, just tweaked.

I'm not a modder like you guys, I'm a tweaker, about all I'm really good at is traffic and env/sensors. The thing is, many complain about the game, but the fact ,IMO, this game is far from it's potential. It's like every major mod has great points that need to be combined together into one mod. I have pieces of TMO, RFB, FORS, RSRD, Trav's and others tweaked to my liking in one mod. I don't have to choose or get stuck in the idea of one mod.

[Webster]

Just so I have this correct. Say I edited all the crew ratings in RSRD, obvious using all his existing mis files, just changing the ratings in them, would that be OK? Course, the downside in doing something that simple, you've created a large mod that includes 80% or so of his existing files. I never liked the ratings of RSRD, so long ago I went through every file and adjusted them. Obvious, easy to do, but very time consuming. As far as I know RSRD uses competent ratings for all merchants and capital ships, it may seem unrealistic, but increasing the ratings of those to vet and elite, they respond more like ships should.

I also added several ships, probably created after lurker left, such as the Nagato and placed or replaced them as historically as possible. For instance, replacing the Fuso Lurker uses instead of the Nagato in Kurita's Center Force.I also reworked most the capital ports, more guns, searchlights, nets, mines, etc. I added more special missions, several of TMO's convoy layers and several mis files of my own.

As RR said, RSRD does rework many of TMO's sensors. Tater mades some fixes for some of these, but I thought they needed further tweaking, mostly radar, so you had a chance of pulling off night surface attacks later war. I've always used my own envs, but I'm finally close to that perfect night env. where I can pull off realistic night surface attacks and escape without screwing up day visuals.

I did several other things, sure some were off RSRD files. My point is, by the time I was done, I had used and tweak 90% of RSRD to my liking. Rather than load mine on top of his, I just added the remaining RSRD files I needed into my mod, so I only load my one mod over TMO "RSRD tweaked". Obvious, this wouldn't be allowed, but I hate loading numerous large mods over each other. If I released a mod, it would be like loading RSRD again, just tweaked.

I'm not a modder like you guys, I'm a tweaker, about all I'm really good at is traffic and env/sensors. The thing is, many complain about the game, but the fact ,IMO, this game is far from it's potential. It's like every major mod has great points that need to be combined together into one mod. I have pieces of TMO, RFB, FORS, RSRD, Trav's and others tweaked to my liking in one mod. I don't have to choose or get stuck in the idea of one mod.


in my opinion, as long as you only include files you remodded then its ok because you changed his work and thereby its no longer his sole right to decide how its used.

but this is "my" opinion and not an official stance of subsim and I am sure there are others who might have other feelings about it.

I see it like this, we all take ubi's files and change them to claim as our mod and it is the exact same premis for modding existing mods in my opinion.

the files never belonged to lurker to dictate who uses them and as long as you are not using his file changes as he created them to claim as your own then there is no issue of "ownership" of file changes. you are "as it should be described" making a companion mod for use along with RSRDC and not a stand alone mod for sh4 using his work in it.

so it should require RSRDC be installed then your mod added after that it makes the changes to RSRDC so you are not combining his files within your mod but using your mod to make the changes.

[Armistead]

OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...

[Webster]

Thanks Webster for waying in on the permissions question. Lurker hlb3's work is something to marvel at!! His pains taking efforts to rework the Campaign files stand out to be one of the best additions to the game!!

As I mentioned I've been looking at them and am struck by the shear magnitude of the work involved. He did most of this by hand to keep the Mission Editor from reassigning his dates.......it will cause us to do the same if we intend to tweak some of his files for better game play.


yes you cant use the mission editor for making changes, its best just used to get a good overview of how things are working but you have to manually edit all the campaign mission files.

the work lurker did was brilliant and IMO at the time it was the most impressive thing done for the game. I think he got discouraged by how little people thought about the work that went into it and just wanted to sit back and snipe about this or that that THEY wanted to see and why he didn't do it the way they wanted it done. in the end I think he felt his work wasn't properly respected.

I think there was a language misunderstanding issue at times because he seamed to often felt insults from people where they didn't exist.

I respect him and his work a lot but a lot of times talented people aren't easy to get along with


OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...

yep, that pretty much put an end to my desire to create any more mods and its only the perfectionist in me that pushed me to redo some of my older mods to clean them up and fine tune them as a "final" work and contribution so to speak. I still hope one day to find the motivation and time to do a GFO v2.0 to bring in the latest tweaks created for the game but I still have a bad taste from those attacks.

in your case with RSRDC I can't see where there should be any issue since lurker is no longer on the forums and isn't around to object to anything, he hasn't posted anything else since 2011 except he popped in for one post to say merry Christmas in 2012

I don't know what the statute of limitations is on unsupported mods but I would think its an outdated abandoned mod at this point if for no other reason then there is no one to get any permissions from if you wanted to ask for it. (again just my opinion)

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, I guess if it came to a big issue, Neal could decide. Heck, I still remember all the crap you went through when you first came out with GFO...
Well, as the maker of some of that stink I remember that Webster's first inclination was to release GFO as a patch. I objected because patches are released by game companies and include code changes as well as moddable file changes. Also calling something a patch would imply Ubi authorship and I believed that wasn't proper.

The other part of it I objected to was the GFO is a mod package that stands toe to toe with TMO and RFB, being a true supermod that relates to all aspects of the game. Calling it a patch, I thought, would be selling Webster short compared to its true status as something higher.

I still kinda like Webster's original original idea of a toolbox of compatible, interchangeable mods to mold the game to your choice. There could be three different varieties of environmental mods, three gameplay mods, three campaign mods, for instance. Choose the choice of your choice! Pick one of each category and load 'em up with the guarantee that they are all compatible and nobody will die. Then have eyecandy plugins too, that are perfectly compatible. It could be the first ala carte supermod if taken to its logical conclusion. I pushed the idea hard back in the day and had no takers.....

[Bubblehead1980]

Also, when someone drops off the face of the earth as lurker did(hope he is ok) and leaves the mod out there, come on. nothing wrong with people adding on and improving RSRD and sharing with the community.No one makes a profit or anything, it's simply for the enjoyment of the community.I have added quite a bit to RSRD and corrected some errors etc and plan to eventually release them to the community as an "add on" to RSRD. This was initially for my own use but others should enjoy as well.

[JoeCorrado]

yep, that pretty much put an end to my desire to create any more mods and its only the perfectionist in me that pushed me to redo some of my older mods to clean them up and fine tune them as a "final" work and contribution so to speak. I still hope one day to find the motivation and time to do a GFO v2.0 to bring in the latest tweaks created for the game but I still have a bad taste from those attacks.

Just so ya know, I removed RSRDC until I am able to try and add some traffic of my own back into it. Or (as is more likely) until somebody with more skills than I have does it first. If it weren't for talent like that found here, my copy of SH4 would have been forgotten long ago. No way I could have made it enjoyable.

Anyway, I re-installed SH4 and used GFO as my first MOD. A life saver that was for me! As you can see, I have quite a MOD buffet going on right now- but everything works well together so far and almost no tweaking needed from me to make it happen- from my experience, always a good thing. :rotfl2:
_____________

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Program Files (x86)\UBI_CUSTOM_SH4\Silent Hunter Wolves of the Pacific\MODS]

Game Fixes Only Mod v1.1
SonarTargetFix2_stock_Install BEFORE EAX Sounds
EAXsoundsim_STOCK_GFO_OM
MaxOptics IV for SH4 1.5
FJB Camera Mod AFTER MaxOptics
GREEN LOCK
Nav Map Make-Over v. 2.0
NMMO Airbase Add-on
Office Images
Radio RAK-7 (CND-46155)
Webster's Easy to Read Game Text
Webster's New Sounds for SH4
Webster's Upgraded Deck Gun v1
STOCK_different_smoke
Crew Rank Fix - Stock
TMO_Stock15_interior3d_BALAO_overhaul
TMO_Stock15_interior3d_SALMON_overhaul
TMO_Stock15_interior3d_GATO_USSDRUM
Gato_Interior_gauges_ver_2
3000 Meter Bearing Tool (1360x)
SS174 USS Shark_FooBor's PORPOISE HEAVY WTH HI-RES V1.0
SS191 USS Sculpin_Sargo Black
SS228 USS Drum_Combo Gato Fooskin
Speed and Depth US Submarines
Z_LAST MOD - replace to add My Orders Bar_small NAV tools_Mini Chrono_And Crew Text Position

[TorpX]

yep, that pretty much put an end to my desire to create any more mods ... I still hope one day to find the motivation and time to do ... but I still have a bad taste from those attacks.


This is kind of discouraging, actually.

If modders and potential modders are worn down and wearied by many and varied, arcane rules of modding etiquette, we can pretty much forget about getting any further improvements to the game. I hope the powers that be will consider this, when it comes time to decide these issues.

[Webster]

Well, as the maker of some of that stink I remember that Webster's first inclination was to release GFO as a patch. I objected because patches are released by game companies and include code changes as well as moddable file changes. Also calling something a patch would imply Ubi authorship and I believed that wasn't proper.


well I don't want to get into all that but the name thing wasn't the cause of me quitting but I admit it was an extra incentive when someone is denied the right to name their own mod as they see fit without constant harassment by a select few.

RR I never found anything you ever said to be anything but your honest opinion done respectfully which is all I ask of anyone to give, if we don't get honest opinions from others then we have nothing to judge our selves by.

anyway guys I think we are hijacking this thread too much so lets get back to talking about the AI that the thread is about

[Armistead]

IMO, if RSRD is to be made better, rather than see several people make mods to improve it, I would rather see one project mod led by an experienced modder like Scurvy. If several released their idea of an updated RSRD, people will be left to one choice or mod stacking which wouldn't work.

They're several mods already that improve RSRD, but don't work with each other or overwrite the others changes. Many of us have our own mods. If someone would take the time to compare and get all the changes into one setup, we all win.

[Rockin Robbins]

Agreed! Capn, are you amenable to taking the point on this thing? SH4UBM with TMO and RSRD fully patched as a base. All submissions go to you ready for inclusion. You decide on any conflicts between submissions, consulting with the Indians if you so choose. No voting--no crying? I personally would like the SCAF to stay out and be available as a separate plugin for reasons we all understand, but you decide and I won't cry.

Webster, the naming fisco on your supermod came out in the best possible way. If you had given it another name it would be Webster's Whatever Mod and nowhere as memorable as GFO. In order to achieve immortality you or your work must have a cool acronym: FDR, JFK, LBJ, WWII, GWX, TMO, RFB, GFO. They all have that in common. Even long after people forget what the words that made up the acronym were, they remember the acronym.

I'm thankful that I didn't have a part in discouraging you from modding. Remember that those who do always have their detractors. They aren't attacking because they don't like what you do, they attack simply because you do things and they do not. Remember that and keep doing. Their very criticism is validation of your action.

If you do nothing, or something of little merit there is no reason for those non-contributors to attack. Take your lumps with a bit of a smile and a bounce to your step.:up:

Oh, and I thought of something else. Unless we want to resurrect Jxte, which would really muddy the waters and make installation much more difficult, in order to mod, you have to insert an entire file in place of what already exists. If you're modding AI, for instance and you want to incorporate Duci's MAD sensor, you must first load up the RSRD file, then modify the parameters that make the MOD sensor. You end up with an entire file containing yours and Lurker's work. There's no avoiding this. But Lurker's work contains 89% Ubi work too. As long as the base is unchanged RSRD and you are installing your modified parameter file on top, you are not disrespecting Lurker in my way of thinking.

As long as modding is replacing an entire file with an entire other file, there's no escape and never was another way. We're doing nothing that every mod ever created didn't do. I think we have a non-issue.

I think this "intellectual property" notion of mods is silly anyway. When you release it on the internet it is community property as far as I'm concerned. My mods say PLEASE copy my mod. Yeah, it cuts my income in half but what the hay?

[CapnScurvy]

Ok I'll do it. I'm maybe a quarter of the way through as is.

I'm using RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1 as my base files for modding. This Patch is compatible with the three versions of RSRDC, so there's not much to worry about between TMO's added campaigns, and whatever RFB did (if anything?). It happens to have the very merchant and oil tanker mission routes that should be increased in value to cause more merchant traffic.

I'll keep this confined to just increasing merchant traffic, correcting any errors I'll find, and getting the travel speeds between waypoints to live happily with the requirement of not letting it drop below half the rated maximum speed for any particular ship.

This isn't going to be done with the snap of my fingers, so be patient (I've still got a harvest to do around here as well :D). But, I'll release it as soon as I can.

[Armistead]

I think we should agree exacty how far we're going or what will be the goal, a simply mod or a complex mod. My idea was a more consuming mod.
Yep, the merchants could be addressed, but honestly having more or less single merchants really doesn't add much.

Redo all the crew ratings {course that's 80% of files} at least to bring RSRD to a TMO level. Like I said, get the merchant and capital ships to vet and elite ratigs, then redo escorts. Frankly I would like to see a mix from poor to elite on the above.

Add ships such as the Nagato, hospital ships, several others.

Rework the RSRD sensors that change TMO. Tater did some of this, but
just depends what we're after.

Rework the ports, add guns, lights, nets, mines, etc. Make it difficult as it should be, then special missions inside ports would be more fun.

Per above, correct and add special missions.

Maybe agree to use TMO's convoy layers if OK with Duci, course people could do tha on their own.

Certainly add more mis files with more traffic. For instance I have a china traffic mis folder, lots of groups later war that actually run the coast line, so you can really only attack seaside and at night.

I guess it shouldn't evolve more than traffic, up to you guys.

[Bubblehead1980]

Ok I'll do it. I'm maybe a quarter of the way through as is.

I'm using RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1 as my base files for modding. This Patch is compatible with the three versions of RSRDC, so there's not much to worry about between TMO's added campaigns, and whatever RFB did (if anything?). It happens to have the very merchant and oil tanker mission routes that should be increased in value to cause more merchant traffic.

I'll keep this confined to just increasing merchant traffic, correcting any errors I'll find, and getting the travel speeds between waypoints to live happily with the requirement of not letting it drop below half the rated maximum speed for any particular ship.

This isn't going to be done with the snap of my fingers, so be patient (I've still got a harvest to do around here as well :D). But, I'll release it as soon as I can.

Well if youre going to do it then Ill wait on that part and see how yours works out.I deleted single merchants except a small loners in coastal areas after mid 44 since Japanese no longer had their important merchants/tankersrunning solo across the pacific etc.

Something lurker did that drivers me nuts is prob 70% of his tankers single and convoy do not have fuel as their cargo.I have changed that in most of RSRD's convoys and started to on the single tankers.

I have been working on an upgrade for RSRD for a while now, what began as improvements for my own and some testing for armistead(his darker nights are great, can pull off realistic night surface attacks now) has turned into a project.I am hoping to release in December or January, schedule permitting. Look forward to seeing what you come up with, ill hold off on the singles.

[Bubblehead1980]

I think we should agree exacty how far we're going or what will be the goal, a simply mod or a complex mod. My idea was a more consuming mod.
Yep, the merchants could be addressed, but honestly having more or less single merchants really doesn't add much.

Redo all the crew ratings {course that's 80% of files} at least to bring RSRD to a TMO level. Like I said, get the merchant and capital ships to vet and elite ratigs, then redo escorts. Frankly I would like to see a mix from poor to elite on the above.

Add ships such as the Nagato, hospital ships, several others.

Rework the RSRD sensors that change TMO. Tater did some of this, but
just depends what we're after.

Rework the ports, add guns, lights, nets, mines, etc. Make it difficult as it should be, then special missions inside ports would be more fun.

Per above, correct and add special missions.

Maybe agree to use TMO's convoy layers if OK with Duci, course people could do tha on their own.

Certainly add more mis files with more traffic. For instance I have a china traffic mis folder, lots of groups later war that actually run the coast line, so you can really only attack seaside and at night.

I guess it shouldn't evolve more than traffic, up to you guys.

I foe one think it should involve more than traffic.Upgrading it so it has TMO sensors etc for TMO difficulty is key, especially the aircraft.The reworked ports, mines, nets you speak of would be a great addition. Also, the special missions is a key element to upgrading RSRD, esp for Narwhal and older boats Porpoise etc in later war.The older boats were basically withdrawn from front lines, were given second tier assignments like lifeguard off bypassed islands where were unlikely to run into the effective asw assets.Narwhals of course were busy with special missions from 43 on.

I guess we should all have a conference of sorts at some point, coordinate efforts.

[Rockin Robbins]

I guess it shouldn't evolve more than traffic, up to you guys.

I'm all for restoring TMO difficulty settings, but if we do then this mod is only good with TMO. Scurvy has a great idea to make this mod work for all the supermods. THEN a separate mod to restore Duci's AI settings would be appropriate.

Include too much and you limit the number of people who can benefit or you make yourself produce multiple mods. The more complicated you make it the more mistakes it will contain.

With separate modules, you can take a module out and see if the mistake goes away. If so you found where your problem is, so troubleshooting could be easier too.

Thanks Capn, no hurry. Do it right rather than quickly every time.

[lurker_hlb3]

Okay boys, I haven't fallen off the edge of the world as some of you may think, but I still come here every so often, just to see what's going on. I have read this thread with great interest and have decided to give you guys my permission to do whatever you want to RSRD. Just remember that once you go there and start making changes you have to live with the results. The only thing I ask is you give me credit for my original work.

This is my one and only post and I will not be responding after this time.

Leigh

[Armistead]

I'm all for restoring TMO difficulty settings, but if we do then this mod is only good with TMO. Scurvy has a great idea to make this mod work for all the supermods. THEN a separate mod to restore Duci's AI settings would be appropriate.

Include too much and you limit the number of people who can benefit or you make yourself produce multiple mods. The more complicated you make it the more mistakes it will contain.

With separate modules, you can take a module out and see if the mistake goes away. If so you found where your problem is, so troubleshooting could be easier too.

Thanks Capn, no hurry. Do it right rather than quickly every time.


Well, TMO's difficulty settings wouldn't be difficult to restore, really not much to it, the bigger issue is the crew ratings.

Anyway, glad to see lurker giving his permission, makes me feel more comfortable about it.

[CapnScurvy]

Okay boys, I haven't fallen off the edge of the world as some of you may think, but I still come here every so often, just to see what's going on. I have read this thread with great interest and have decided to give you guys my permission to do whatever you want to RSRD. Just remember that once you go there and start making changes you have to live with the results. The only thing I ask is you give me credit for my original work.

This is my one and only post and I will not be responding after this time.

Leigh

Thanks Leigh, and good to hear from you!!

RSRDC has always been my favorite mod due to the reworked/historic campaign files, and the shear number of added ships to the game. The addition of your work makes the game feel much more authentic in overall scope.

Yes, I'd like to tweak the spawn levels, increasing route traffic. In my opinion, authenticity doesn't always make for good game play (who wants to play a mission in "real time" without time compression?).

Take care,
Lee