Idea's for Mk28 torpedo mod

[joefremont]

I have been thinking about making a mod to add the Mark 28 torpedo and wanted some advice. The reason I wanted this is that the only other USN homing torpedo is the mk27 and have found it to be quite useless. On the historical accuracy side I feel including the Mk28 is ok since the game already includes the mk16 and in comparison, the mk28 was actually tested in combat where the mk16 never got that far.

I have been playing around with Silent 3ditor and am starting to get an idea how to proceed but have a few questions for the experts here.

1) Can I create a new torpedo type or do I have to cannibalize an existing one.

2) I have not found any tuning parameters for homing torpedoes other than the straight_run property in the Torpedo_US.sim file. If they do exist does anybody know where they are located?

If I do have to take over an existing torpedo type I figure the Mk23 is the best candidate since after examining the config files the only differences I can find is that the slow speed is missing and the warhead is slightly more powerful and is equal to the Mk18. Since the Mk14 and Mk23 are supposed to have the same warheads I figure if we increase the warhead on the mk14 to the same as the mk23, nobody will miss the mk23.

[joefremont]

From the lack of responses to this I am assuming there is not much interest in this.

My idea of taking over the Mk23 did not work because as far as I can tell the homing and wake characteristics are baked into the sh4.exe file and can't be modified without hacking it, which I am not going to do. However I did figure out how to use the german torpedo's on a US boat and have been working on modifying the T5 to perform like the Mk28. I choose the T5 because;

A) since it was the germans second homing torpedo to enter service and the mk28 was the americans second homing torpedo to enter service there homing performance should be similar. and

B) Since the T11 was an improved T5 as long as the T11 was made available the same time the T5 would have been available few would complain. Besides a user could always uninstall the Mk28 mod before running a U-Boat campaign.

So what I have done so far is to mod the T5 to have the same performance parameters as the Mk18 except for the lower speed of the Mk28 and to bump the straight run distance to 1000 yards (923m).

One thing I still need to figure out is how to replace the image/model of the german torpedo with the US torpedo as in the torpedo control room the german torpedo is shorter. This really does not effect anything but it would be good for completness.

But then again if nobody is interested and I am the only one who is going to use it there is not much point.

[Bubblehead1980]

From the lack of responses to this I am assuming there is not much interest in this.

My idea of taking over the Mk27 did not work because as far as I can tell the homing and wake characteristics are baked into the sh4.exe file and can't be modified without hacking it, which I am not going to do. However I did figure out how to use the german torpedo's on a US boat and have been working on modifying the T5 to perform like the Mk28. I choose the T5 because;

A) since it was the germans second homing torpedo to enter service and the mk28 was the americans second homing torpedo to enter service there homing performance should be similar. and

B) Since the T11 was an improved T5 as long as the T11 was made available the same time the T5 would have been available few would complain. Besides a user could always uninstall the Mk28 mod before running a U-Boat campaign.

So what I have done so far is to mod the T5 to have the same performance parameters as the Mk18 except for the lower speed of the Mk28 and to bump the straight run distance to 1000 yards (923m).

One thing I still need to figure out is how to replace the image/model of the german torpedo with the US torpedo as in the torpedo control room the german torpedo is shorter. This really does not effect anything but it would be good for completness.

But then again if nobody is interested and I am the only one who is going to use it there is not much point.

I believe there is interest in this, sometimes there is interest but lack of response, interest is shown once its released. I look forward to seeing the end result, hopefully someone can help you with replacing the image/model as it could be a little bit of an immersion killer.Would definitely be nice to have better homing torpedo(since Mark 28 did see limited service) for use in late war, I find the cutie mostly useless, Mark 28 could be a real help.

[c13Garrison]

For what its worth I am very interested too, I just have nothing to offer except research, and itseems you've nailed down that already.

I would especially be interested in an overall "overhaul" torpedo mod that once and for all restores all torpedoes to their real world performance, as far as duds, pre-det, circles, depth of run, and especially yield. I have no concept of how burdensome such a project would be however.

[Madox58]

Take a German torp and mod that. You can create new dats and such you know right?

Then you'd need to edit UPC files and such. I don't have SH4 installed so this is off the top of my head.

[Admiral Halsey]

Oh please make this mod. It would be really nice to have a homing torpedo for the US side that isn't worthless.

[joefremont]

Thanks for the encouragement. I have much of it worked out, but still have not figured out how to change the image in the torpedo management screen.

Right now the Mk27 is available 1 Jan 44 and the Mk16 is available 1 jan 45. Since the Mk28 was introduced between these I figure 1 July 44 would be a good date.

[Madox58]

When doing a mod? Don't worry about what others think about it.
Just do it!

Doing it for yourself is the most important part anyway.
And don't be afraid to PM people that you think might be able to help.
We don't watch every thread so you might think We don't care.

Now what are you doing reading this when you should be modding!
:D

[Bubblehead1980]

For what its worth I am very interested too, I just have nothing to offer except research, and itseems you've nailed down that already.

I would especially be interested in an overall "overhaul" torpedo mod that once and for all restores all torpedoes to their real world performance, as far as duds, pre-det, circles, depth of run, and especially yield. I have no concept of how burdensome such a project would be however.


I just released such a mod.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206667&page=2

[c13Garrison]

Joe, I have a former torpedo person as an acquaintance, so I'm trying to nail down an in-the-field delivery date for you. That date has to be recorded somewhere. ..

[Rockin Robbins]

And hold it before you say worthless. In the game, I've sunk three escorts with Cuties. In the real war US homing torpedoes had kills and there were no kills for the German homing torpedo. Of course you know that luck plays into any results especially when we're talking small numbers like zero and a couple. The results don't necessarily reflect the quality of the torpedoes.

[TorpX]

I agree with RR. The Cutie had to be small and quiet. A large warhead torpedo would have made too much noise. However, it doesn't take that much high explosive to create a breach in a DD hull (or merchant hull, for that matter). It wasn't designed to sink the Yamato.

[Bubblehead1980]

And hold it before you say worthless. In the game, I've sunk three escorts with Cuties. In the real war US homing torpedoes had kills and there were no kills for the German homing torpedo. Of course you know that luck plays into any results especially when we're talking small numbers like zero and a couple. The results don't necessarily reflect the quality of the torpedoes.

I've managed a few kills, to disable a few DD's as well. Think Mark 28 would be nice since has more speed etc.

[Rockin Robbins]

You know, another strategy would be to modify the Cutie for more explosive power, speed and range. That would be a trivial thing, which I've already done in a slightly more ludicrous way in my Slightly Subnuclear Mark 14 and Cutie mod. Check out the Cutie there and you'll see something you can work with.

[c13Garrison]

Well, this was my attempt to determine the actual in-field delivery date for the Mk 28- and I hope I don't come across as stepping on toes Joe, it just struck me that there had to be a date available somewhere so I thought I'd try. To wit;


"Good afternoon,

I am working on a research project which incorporates some elements of Westinghouse' WWII production activities.

There was a torpedo that Westinghouse made called the Mk 28 Acoustic Homing Torpedo. It was developed through 1943 in part from the captured German Ge7 Torpedo, and went into service in limited numbers during 1944.

What I am looking for is an actual in-the-field delivery date for the Mk 28, ideally the date it was first loaded onto a submarine tender for potential distribution to active patrolling US submarines. My best guess is July, but I have scoured numerous sources and have not been able to find an actual printed date.

If there is someone at Westinghouse who has access to its historical records, and the interest to be so kind to look something like this up for someone, I would love to know when the first "batch" of Mk 28's were shipped from whatever factory built them. From this I could at least interpolate the field delivery date I need.

I fully understand if such a request is beyond the scope of your normal business operations, but I concluded that given I seem to have exhausted my options, it didn't hurt to simply ask.

My thanks for taking the time to review this query, and great thanks for any time that may be invested in its response.

Most sincerely,

GLC"


And, this was the response-

"During the 1980's and 1990's, Westinghouse Electric Corporation sold all its industrial businesses and focused on its media businesses. Through a series of transactions, Westinghouse became CBS Corporation, a media company.

CBS has no pictures, information, or products remaining from the historical Westinghouse businesses. Most of the Westinghouse Corporate historical records were given to the George Westinghouse Museum however the museum has closed and transferred all materials and artifacts to the Senator John Heinz Pittsburgh Regional History Center, 1212 Small Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15222;
phone: 412-454-6000; e-mail: hswp@hswp.org."


So. Does anybody live near Pittsburgh? I'm kind of thinking Joe's guess of July 1st is sounding just fine for the effort that the actual date will require to recover. lol

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, this was my attempt to determine the actual in-field delivery date for the Mk 28- and I hope I don't come across as stepping on toes Joe, it just struck me that there had to be a date available somewhere so I thought I'd try. To wit;


"Good afternoon,

I am working on a research project which incorporates some elements of Westinghouse' WWII production activities.

There was a torpedo that Westinghouse made called the Mk 28 Acoustic Homing Torpedo. It was developed through 1943 in part from the captured German Ge7 Torpedo, and went into service in limited numbers during 1944.

What I am looking for is an actual in-the-field delivery date for the Mk 28, ideally the date it was first loaded onto a submarine tender for potential distribution to active patrolling US submarines. My best guess is July, but I have scoured numerous sources and have not been able to find an actual printed date.

If there is someone at Westinghouse who has access to its historical records, and the interest to be so kind to look something like this up for someone, I would love to know when the first "batch" of Mk 28's were shipped from whatever factory built them. From this I could at least interpolate the field delivery date I need.

I fully understand if such a request is beyond the scope of your normal business operations, but I concluded that given I seem to have exhausted my options, it didn't hurt to simply ask.

My thanks for taking the time to review this query, and great thanks for any time that may be invested in its response.

Most sincerely,

GLC"


And, this was the response-

"During the 1980's and 1990's, Westinghouse Electric Corporation sold all its industrial businesses and focused on its media businesses. Through a series of transactions, Westinghouse became CBS Corporation, a media company.

CBS has no pictures, information, or products remaining from the historical Westinghouse businesses. Most of the Westinghouse Corporate historical records were given to the George Westinghouse Museum however the museum has closed and transferred all materials and artifacts to the Senator John Heinz Pittsburgh Regional History Center, 1212 Small Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15222;
phone: 412-454-6000; e-mail: hswp@hswp.org."


So. Does anybody live near Pittsburgh? I'm kind of thinking Joe's guess of July 1st is sounding just fine for the effort that the actual date will require to recover. lol

I've never read of the subs having homing torpedoes on patrol before November 44. I could be wrong but perhaps it was ready for testing in July 44. Either way it's okay, the date can always be adjusted.Just ready for a better, historically accurate homing torpedo.Cutie is okay but Mark 28 sounds like fun for later war.Example, my next late war career(April 45) has me going to the java sea.Shallow waters, not much traffic other than small things to use guns on but there are skilled patrols in the area and few small convoys but with dangerous escorts.Mark 28 would be helpful.

[Admiral Halsey]

Why not just e-mail the John Heinz Pittsburgh Regional History Center? I'm sure they would be glad to help.

[c13Garrison]

The logical first thought. However.

A company that Has an archive could conceivably have someone with a living memory of what is in them, and know roughly where to get a nugget of data. A Transferred archive is likely in storage state with no one who has a comprehensive familiarity with the contents. I would hate to have someone spend half a day looking up a date in such a case, especially when July 1 1944 is probably correct to within 4 months. Even if its early, it lets the player use it for longer.

Oh well, just trying to do my part for Truth Justice & the Historical way. If I was in Pittsburgh I'd call and see if I could examine the archive myself. That would be unbelievably fun for me. Lol. :)

[Madox58]

August 14th, 1945 - USS Torsk (SS-423) fired the Experimental Mk 28.

So a delivery date of July seems a fair guess.

[c13Garrison]

Hey there Joe, how's your Mk28 tinkering coming, is it satisfactory to you?

[Bubblehead1980]

Yes, are we getting this soon? Just had a situation where I needed a faster homing torpedo.Attacked the Ashigara in Bangka Strait in 1945, sunk her with 6 torpedoes from 4,000 yards(much as HMS Trenchant did) .Being in periously shallow waters, i was careful to avoid the DD with her, which was circling about 3,000 yards.I fired a cutie to ambush it, if had Mark 28 with 20 knot speed, it wouldve caught it but the Cutie was too slow, just kept chasing the DD which was moving at 12 knots or faster in circles, cutie never could catch it.

[joefremont]

I am pretty close right now. Next day or two I should have beta 0.1 ready. I have done varients for standard, GFO and TMO (without any additional mods) and need to finish up the packaging before releasing.

I am setting to make them available July of 44. I think C13's info on when they were actually available is correct, and only 21 were actually fired during the war. But since that was 21 more than the mk16 and the game makes it available in Jan 45 I think July of 44 is fair.

And if someone does not like it, they don't have to install this mod.

[ETR3(SS)]

And if someone does not like it, they don't have to install this mod.

This! :yeah:

[c13Garrison]

This captain will have plenty of 28's on board as soon as they're unpacked from their crates! Thank you Joe!

[Admiral Halsey]

What is the Renown cost of them going to be?

[joefremont]

What is the Renown cost of them going to be?

Good question.

My thoughts on this have varied, putting it between 500-1000 range. given the comparison between the costs of the mk16 and mk27. My first idea was to have it about the same as the mk16 (500 std and 1000 in tmo) and have also though about starting at 1000 in 7/44 and dropping it by 100 every two months.

Suggestions?????

[c13Garrison]

The latter idea sounds ideal to me, if the costs can be adjusted over time. As their numbers increased they would become easier to get.

[joefremont]

I have the first beta ready. Here is a link to it so you all can do some initial testing of it.

Mark28_Torpedo_v0.1.7z (http://www.fsairlines.net/temp/Mark28_Torpedo_v0.1.7z)

Let me know what your results were.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thank you Joe! I'll check it out tonight.

[Admiral Halsey]

I'm going to check it out ASAP.

[Bubblehead1980]

Loaded it up for a test, no time for a patrol yet so just thought I would check it out. I was trying to get the torpedo to lock on to me but i guess due to its speed couldnt get close enough to its head to get the acoustics to lock on. I get it's a beta but just wondering if its working fully.The 3 model still looks german but in the loadout screen it shows up looking like a US torpedo.Will try it on a patrol tomorrow when I have time to run one.Good work though, cant wait to use it.

[joefremont]

Loaded it up for a test, no time for a patrol yet so just thought I would check it out. I was trying to get the torpedo to lock on to me but i guess due to its speed couldnt get close enough to its head to get the acoustics to lock on. I get it's a beta but just wondering if its working fully.

The mk28 was designed to straight run for 1000 yards before it will start homing on a target, and my mod does that. So getting it to lock on yourself should be difficult.

The 3 model still looks german but in the loadout screen it shows up looking like a US torpedo.Will try it on a patrol tomorrow when I have time to run one.Good work though, cant wait to use it.

Actually I did not change the 3D model from the german, figuring since its underwater and rarely close enough to another torpedo to compare nobody would notice. But knew that inside the loadout screen you would see them next to other torpedoes and I did update those images.

[Rockin Robbins]

All right. I tested a new career started November 7, 1944 so I could load up some of these new beauties. USS Kraken heads for the Japanese coast! Been a long time since I was on my favorite sub. Thank you Digital Trucker for a boat skin of enduring beauty!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_191100_421_zps802f815e.png

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_191038_609_zps8503b352.png

Off the coast of Japan just off Tokyo Harbor, I caught a radar sighting of a lone freighter headed for the harbor up the coast, close in.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_195625_390_zpsede54e17.png

Plotted an intercept course and cackled to myself, as we were packing some new kind of heat--those Mark 28 torpedoes joefremont was bragging about back in Pearl. With six of those in the forward tubes we were expecting success.

Freighter was headed at course 90º and 5 knots. I set up for a Dick O'Kane attack, shooting at AoB 0º, range 1700 yd. Reasoning behind that is I wanted the torpedoes behind the freighter to pick up the screws nice and plain. Took forever before my sonar man intoned "bearing......zero." Fire one. Wait seven seconds. Fire two. Two torpedoes fired by sonar bearing. Where would they impact?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_200210_328_zps3f8e946f.png

Watching on the attack map watched both torpedoes travel straight up their bearings. Then the first torpedo. "Impact!" It hit right where I aimed it, forward crane. No particular turn toward the stern of the target. Seven seconds to second impact.

"Impact!" The stern of the target is slammed by a mighty big explosion. That's where I aimed the shot, so jury is still out. Lets look at the target. She's still under power. Might go down but lets take the insurance shot.

Didn't take the time to update AoB. Just aimed about a degree ahead of the target, jammed the "send bearing and range" button, opened a tube and fired #3. There's no way this one can be called an aimed shot. And to put the icing on the cake, the target begins to slow just as the torpedo leaves the tube. If this is a Mark 18 no way it's going to do anything but wave as it cruises by.

Attack map time. It's clear by the attack map that the aiming track will pass well ahead of the target. The torpedo goes out 1000 yards directly on track. Suddenly it breaks left TOWARD THE TARGET! Hehehehehehehe! I guess I might owe joe a beer or three. The torpedo changed course about 30º and bird-dogged that poor target right into Davey Jones' locker.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_200712_406_zpsaf7709ef.png

Direct hit right on the screws! Monstrous explosions as the cargo goes up this time.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/joefremonts%20Mark%2028/SH4Img2013-08-30_200743_640_zps156a4f54.png

Unqualified success I'd say! Did you see the angle that torpedo turned? You can see the aiming vector way ahead of the target. That's a clean miss without a Mark 28! Congrats, Joe Fremont, we'll let you live and won't even tar and feather you this time! The beers are on us!

[Bubblehead1980]

The mk28 was designed to straight run for 1000 yards before it will start homing on a target, and my mod does that. So getting it to lock on yourself should be difficult.



Actually I did not change the 3D model from the german, figuring since its underwater and rarely close enough to another torpedo to compare nobody would notice. But knew that inside the loadout screen you would see them next to other torpedoes and I did update those images.

got ya.Anyway in future version could get a US 3d model?

[joefremont]

got ya.Anyway in future version could get a US 3d model?

I think its possible to update the 3D model, stumbling on it when I was trying to figure out how to update the loadout screen. Hopefully have that for beta 2.

Captain Robins, thanks for the detailed report on your combat test of the new Mk 28. I am sure the lab boys will be pouring over the excellent data you and your crew has included in there report.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thanks Joe. You'll notice it didn't deviate from the vector until it was 1300 yards out for a target that was 2035 yards away. That means it heard the target from 700 yards, pretty darned good and justifying the 1000 yard run before turning on the ears. That means that based on this test there's no danger of it turning back toward the sub. Which is kind of a shame, really because I can't use my "Cutie on a Leash" tactic with one of these.

[Bubblehead1980]

I think its possible to update the 3D model, stumbling on it when I was trying to figure out how to update the loadout screen. Hopefully have that for beta 2.

Captain Robins, thanks for the detailed report on your combat test of the new Mk 28. I am sure the lab boys will be pouring over the excellent data you and your crew has included in there report.

Awesome. That would be great, immersion purposes and screenshots as well.

[c13Garrison]

Ok, clearly I screwed up somewhere. The Mk28 mod is installed using JSGME, it seemed to install with no hitches whatsoever, yet when I start a Nov11 1944 game to test it, it does not show on the torpedo loadout screen.

1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
Fixed Zero Bomb Load RSRDC
LST_TMO_v2
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Stock Environment_v3_TMO&RFB
TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_3_SH4
Easier AI for TMO 2.5 by Orpheus
Donation_Narwhal _v185_TMO
Torpedoupdate1
Mark28_Torpedo_v0.1

Was ist uppen? :06:

[TorpX]

Maybe the Narwhal mod doesn't allow for the new torpedo?

This is just a wild guess.

[joefremont]

Ok, clearly I screwed up somewhere. The Mk28 mod is installed using JSGME, it seemed to install with no hitches whatsoever, yet when I start a Nov11 1944 game to test it, it does not show on the torpedo loadout screen.

1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
Fixed Zero Bomb Load RSRDC
LST_TMO_v2
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Stock Environment_v3_TMO&RFB
TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_3_SH4
Easier AI for TMO 2.5 by Orpheus
Donation_Narwhal _v185_TMO
Torpedoupdate1
Mark28_Torpedo_v0.1

Was ist uppen? :06:

I think the most likely thing is that using JSGME you should not have installed the entire Mark28_Torpedo_v0.1 folder,just the Mark28_TMO folder within it. But looking at all the other packages you are installing I expect there will be a conflict in there somewhere. I would expect the Narwhal update and the Mark 28 in its current configuration will conflict.

I need to see if its possible for JSGME to patch the upc file rather than just replace them.

[joefremont]

I have the second beta ready. Here is a link to it so you all can do some initial testing of it.

Mark28_Torpedo_v0.2.7z (http://www.fsairlines.net/temp/Mark28_Torpedo_v0.2.7z)

Changes are that i have updated the 3D model of the torpedo to use the USN standard and also updated the colors to something more official looking in the torpedo management screen.

Couple changes I still want to make before the final release is to figure out how to remove one of the two propellers from the 3D model as the mk28 was a single screw torpedo, also add instructions on how to patch the mod into someones existing setup thats more complicated than the basic standard/GFO/TMO mod packages.

Now, does anyone know how to edit a SH4 3D model.....

[Bubblehead1980]

I have the second beta ready. Here is a link to it so you all can do some initial testing of it.

Mark28_Torpedo_v0.2.7z (http://www.fsairlines.net/temp/Mark28_Torpedo_v0.2.7z)

Changes are that i have updated the 3D model of the torpedo to use the USN standard and also updated the colors to something more official looking in the torpedo management screen.

Couple changes I still want to make before the final release is to figure out how to remove one of the two propellers from the 3D model as the mk28 was a single screw torpedo, also add instructions on how to patch the mod into someones existing setup thats more complicated than the basic standard/GFO/TMO mod packages.

Now, does anyone know how to edit a SH4 3D model.....

Very nice, look forward to trying it out.:salute: Edit:Tried it out, looks and works great.What is the warhead size in RL same as mark 18? Same hitpoints as mark 18 in game? i haven played actual patrol with it, just used friendly merchants outsid epearl harbor as test targets.