US warns of Snowden consequences

[Jimbuna]

I hope the obvious frustration felt does not result in the US painting themselves into a corner.


US Secretary of State John Kerry has said it would be "disappointing" if Russia and China had helped US fugitive Edward Snowden evade US attempts to extradite him from Hong Kong.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23031801

[Betonov]

It would be disappointing if they don't help him

[Jimbuna]

I've an open mind atm but it would be interesting to see some viewpoints on the matter.

[Wolferz]

Exposing the treachery and ineptitude of a puppet government and its' agencies should not carry a penalty of any kind. The Fed has been painting bollocks with a broad brush for far too long. The days of their fear and war mongering for profit are numbered, whether the shadow government likes it or not.:stare:

[Mr Quatro]

The NSA should post ads for turn coat spys on all of the defense department networks and then let the password slip for that page only.

Show a nice house in Monatana (isn't that where the sailor on Red October wanted to go?) with a swimning pool surrounded
by binki clad women with the title, "this could be all yours"

"Will trade for insider information"

"Please call if you need help getting to America"

[Catfish]

Obviously in an advanced democracy, the people cannot be trusted anymore.
(b.t.w. the GCHQ is even worse than the NSA, just saying. The surveillance and eavesdropping in England must be on the top of the world - i only remember those ten thousands of surveillance cameras in London alone - funnily enough lots of those around George Orwell's home)

I think they do not so much betray 'secrets' to foreign countries, but have the intention to make clear what governments do, to their own citizens.
They did not do it for money or fame, instead they knew they would be hunted and criminalized, before they would be probably killed.
(You know you have to destroy a man publicly and politically, before you can kill him)

In my opinion they all deserve a nobel prize, and much much more than Obama.



But the main question is what do the people do now, after they have seen their own democratic (lmao) governments violate public and international law ?

My guess is: Nothing. Disgust is present, but indignation about those ploys is sooo old school. Better publish my personal last night's adventure in FaceBook, via iPhone. And buy a new car. :yep:

[Oberon]

Consequences?!

What consequences, the US can't do a thing, the limits of their power and the power of the Western nations has been white-lined by Assange, and is now fairly common knowledge. Russia and China (and therefore by logical extension Hong Kong) have no love lost for the US, nor does Ecuador, Cuba and Venezuela. Ecuador will (eventually) take him in, and they will parade him in public positions, he will eventually release the rest of his information, thus keeping himself in the limelight and thus unkillable without immediate suspicion falling on the US, and then he will fade away, of little more use or consequence to either the US or its enemies. Eventually when he is in his sixties he may come back to the US out of nostalgia and will be arrested and stand trial, and then he will end his days in prison.

[STEED]

Hes done a Lord Lucan, that is to say if the news is right.

[Stealhead]

Exposing the treachery and ineptitude of a puppet government and its' agencies should not carry a penalty of any kind. The Fed has been painting bollocks with a broad brush for far too long. The days of their fear and war mongering for profit are numbered, whether the shadow government likes it or not.:stare:


I read this and I hope that you jest my friend.Any unfair deed that our government does pails in comparison to the oppressive states that exist in both China and the CIS(Russia).

If you had posted what you posted above in either China or Russia you would not be sitting comfortably in your home right now.You would be in jail and after conviction (100% certain to occur) you would be serving anywhere from a year to 10 years in prison.

The US federal government may not always be picture perfect but it is mild in comparison to the alternatives.

Snowden is nothing but a blowhard and he does not know very much I can assure you of that.I know people that where contractors for the CIA and NSA they only have very limited information only about the specific project they work on and they never know every detail only enough to do what ever they do.My uncle worked for the NSA while he was in the USAF back in the 70's and the same story he only knew enough to perform his duty which in his case was recording certain Soviet communication networks.

All I can say is if you knew a person who worked for the CIA or NSA you would not be so interested in Snowden.

[Mr Quatro]

If you had posted what you posted above in either China or Russia you would not be sitting comfortably in your home right now.You would be in jail and after conviction (100% certain to occur) you would be serving anywhere from a year to 10 years in prison.

The US federal government may not always be picture perfect but it is mild in comparison to the alternatives.


Well said ... it's a battle for what we think. Most of us on the outside looking in can't possibly understand what is going on.

If the tide should turn like in so many news stories lately with the real truth coming out later than sooner then many will be caught with egg on their face.

No love has been lost with this trump card Russia now pocesses.

[Father Goose]

Exposing the treachery and ineptitude of a puppet government and its' agencies should not carry a penalty of any kind. The Fed has been painting bollocks with a broad brush for far too long. The days of their fear and war mongering for profit are numbered, whether the shadow government likes it or not.:stare:

I agree that no penalty should apply to Snowden at this point for what he has released. However, I am concerned with what other intel he possesses and who he shares it with. The American public "doesn't know what it doesn't know". For the US government to want him as bad as they are portraying, one has to believe Snowden has some more "dirty laundry" that they don't want to divulge.

I'm all for exposing the US government for breaking the laws and ignoring the constitution. Not that anyone will ever be held accountable, for that' doesn't happen in the "transparent" Obama administration. As I stated, it's the intel we don't know about that causes me to pause.

[Skybird]

Prism, Tempora - not surprising at all. The Americans have used stations in England since the 70s or early 80s already to overhear over 90% of all telephone and radio communiction in all of Europe, and beyond. With today's technological capacities, the surveillance of any electonic communication is total, I'm sure, and much automated.

Surprising only is how little people care. They already are pretty much in nausea, it seems.

Of course I do not trust terrorists. It's just that I see zero reason to trust governments either, and week for week I read new evidence and news from all Western world how much my mistrust is justified.

The fallout of a total surveillance society with crystal clear transparency of the state's self-declared property units - citizens, that are -, will become evident in the future. Maybe then will people care, if meanwhile for some reason they woke up. It's just that then it will be too late, and the monster will be at the maximum of its power and control.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/public-must-fight-against-prism-and-tempora-surveillance-a-907495.html

A people not caring for its freedom, does not deserve freedom.

Nor respect or sympathy.

We all are ruled to become just enslaved numbers. Submit! Obey! Shut up! Praise the system! Die for its lies! Fight for its defence! Believe in its illusions!

A new cult is born. Hallelujah!

[Catfish]

From the article ^:

"The next weeks and months will show whether democratic societies across the world are strong enough to take a stand against the unlimited, totalitarian ambitions of Western secret services -- or not.

The governments of the countries in question apparently did not have the necessary backbone. They knew full well that the kind of surveillance being undertaken lacked all democratic legitimacy. But they pursued the programs anyway, behind the backs of their electorates."


Nothing to add.

[Wolferz]

Any society that surrenders even one freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both.
I could understand going after the guy with both barrels if he had actually divulged strategic "military" information to a sovereign foreign enemy we are at war with. We are not at war with any sovereign state. We are at war against a religious ideology and stirring the war pot for the next incursion.

If we know nothing of the big picture in DC, then it is by design that we are kept ignorant of their actions. Especially when those actions trample on our rights and our constitution. Sure, they claim that there is plenty of oversight with the programs in question but, we all know that politicians are psychopathic liars and they are following the instructions of a relative few elite individuals that preside over the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission and numerous corporate cabals who are seeking unfettered hegemonic control of the planetary resources. Strictly for their own monetary gain. They have nearly solidified their power and they answer to no one.:shifty:.

[Sailor Steve]

I read this and I hope that you jest my friend.Any unfair deed that our government does pails in comparison to the oppressive states that exist in both China and the CIS(Russia)..
That's nice. Does that somehow excuse our government from any wrongdoing? Do you say our own people spying on us is alright because "they're worse"?

Did Snowden reveal secrets that could get our own people killed? If so, then he deserves prosecution. Or is he the one who exposed all the rescent wiretapping activities? If his "crime" was to reveal illegal activities perpetrated by our own govermnent, then who is the real criminal?

[Platapus]

The world is a very dirty nasty place. Many Citizens can live their lives happy; partly because they don't know what is really happening concerning foreign policy.

I wish the world was nice and clean with the good guys wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats. Everyone wears grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey. One person's good guy is another person's bad guy. Most people are both good and bad at the same time, depending on viewpoint.

I would like to point out that NSA is not some nameless/faceless government entity. It is staffed with almost a million American citizens. Each of which have the same values, ethics, and concerns as many other citizens.

Almost a million people who every day they are at work are asking themselves, "Are we operating within the law".

Almost a million people who every year raise concerns through appropriate channels where issues are investigated and changes are made.

Almost a million people tasked with a very difficult job, in a difficult environment, doing their duty to the best of their ability, every day.

Almost a million people who are Americans and are just as concerned with civil rights as we are.. after all, they are citizens too.

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.

But the government is made up of US citizens... just like us. There are good ones, and bad ones... just like us. And imperfect ones... just like us.

Same values, same concerns, same desires... We are, after all, a government made up of the people. And some of these people have a very difficult job they do and they do it with professionalism.... every day.

And then there are those who are not professional.... just like us.

[Sailor Steve]

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.
Saying something is "trendy" is a good way to dismiss it. Is the government corrupt? If so, should we do nothing about it?

This isn't about the government being corrupt. It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal. Did it? I admit that I don't know. That said, should we not investigate it because the belief that it is is "trendy"? More to the point, this particular thread isn't even about the government directly, it's about the man who exposed that activity. Is he a criminal? Is he a hero?

[Mittelwaechter]

What would have happened, if a member of the Chinese secret service had unfold unbelievable international cyber surveillance details of the Chinese government and would now try to hide from China police?
I guess he would already sit in a CIA jet heading to the United Stasi of America, to meet senators and members of the congress, shaking hands for Faux News, calling him a hero of the free world, who fights for democracy and freedom etc.
And of course the land of the free would deny any help to bring him back to China, were he would have to face repression, unfair treatment, solitary confinement and other forms of torture. Well, in the sight of Guantanamo and Mr. Manning I think Hong Kong, China and the Russians have a similar statement to deliver.

[Skybird]

If only it were that simple, Platapus.

But what is being established, is like the government having a policeman living in your apartment, overhearing what you talk with your family and people on the phoned and at work, to protect other families from you trying to rob them or breaking into their houses.

What is being established is that foreigners in the all the world all get treated like criminals, needed to be assumed as guilty as long as their innocence is not proven. This is especially true for people travelling into the US. Business traffic has dropped into the Us, because many business people simply are pissed.

What is being established is a mentality training, to educate people to live naked and totally exposed to the government, without having any control or insight into government's intentions and activities. The government no longer fears the people: the people fear the government. The government is no longer liable and must account to the people, but the people are being held accountable by the government.

What is being established is a total digitalization of private sphere and private life, and the ability to just push a button to learn all and everything about people, no matter whether it is security relevant or not. Your whole existence potentially can be destroyed by somebody just accessing a database and using what he finds there about you. Your job. Yiur health insurance. The potential for abuse and blackmailing are endless. Its an abyss opening up there.

And lets face it, when it is in monopolistic businesses' profit interest or politicians' interest or finance offices or insurance'S interest to exploit data about you for their own advantage and intention, then they will do it. Because these are the people who write the laws, regulate how the laws are used and enforced, and additionally erode democracy from within.

I see the danger of terrorism. But that is an obvious evil, clear to identify when you see it, easy to point fingers on it and say "this is evil". But I fear far more the criminal organisations, the organised crimes that governments and their alliances with business lobbies - as well as especially in Europe left-leaning ideological crusaders - have turned into. Because if you point fingers at this and explain the evil in it, then it is much harder to seer for many people, and it will be the public opinion itself turning against you and declare you a phobic - an irrational, mentally ill person that is. Terrorism can be adapted to, can be fought against, can be identified. Political abuse and crime, and totalitarian control of everybody, the silent strangling of freedom - that is like a sling around your neck, and the more you fight against it, the more you get strangled.

Be an obedient dog then. Learn their rules, do not question them, sit still and dance stand on your back legs and wag your tail when they give you a hint. Those who be like that and accept their laws, have nothing to fear.

Only those not accepting the line around their neck and not accepting their rules imposed on them must worry about the law. Haven't we heard this argument not several times in this forum over the past couple for years, at various opportunities. I always get a shiver when I hear some mindless person saying that so carelessly. The speaker have forgotten what unbelievable cruelties and barbaric tyrannies have been made possible under the protection of this parole.

People have live din peace for too long, and in too much luxury and wealth. They take their freedom - or what they call that - for granted, and do not imagine circumstances where they need to defend it, or that it could be taken away from them. And in Europe, things are not getting better by the fact that it ids a social-psychological fact that people, the vast majority, do not crave so much for justice in it's real meaning, but that all and everybody must be made equal. If that equality is the equality of castrated slaves and can only be had at the cost of destroying those who perform and did better than the low and miserable average standard, then this is okay for most people there are as long as the guy living next door is not better off than themselves.

There is neither a reason nor an excuse to trust Western governments. And there are so very much very obvious reasons and arguments and facts recommending exactly the opposite: to not trust governments one bit.

If you think you must choose between two evils, you necessarily always will choose evil. And I put into question whether what many people now would argue to be the "lesser evil", indeed is a lesser evil at all over a longer period of time. I say: it is not.

[Platapus]

It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal.

And that is the cogent question.

It might be a good for the legality of the actions to be determined before people get spun up.

There are people posting on the Internets Tubes who seem to take it as demonstrated that the government violated laws. Let's answer that question first before we start declaring someone a hero or a baddie. :yep:

[August]

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.

[Tchocky]

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.


I agree.

But the only channel for that permission is the legislative process. Which says this is legal, and borne from legislation enacted by elected officials. The Supreme Court hadn't ruled on the Patriot Act (ugh, did it have to be called that?) so the legality isn't in question yet. The knowledge part is trickier. Legitimate security concerns run up against the obligation of transparency and I don't know how to square that circle.

[August]

I agree.

But the only channel for that permission is the legislative process. Which says this is legal, and borne from legislation enacted by elected officials. The Supreme Court hadn't ruled on the Patriot Act (ugh, did it have to be called that?) so the legality isn't in question yet. The knowledge part is trickier. Legitimate security concerns run up against the obligation of transparency and I don't know how to square that circle.

Well maybe it'll make the SC now.

[mookiemookie]

That's it. I'm emigrating to a tiny Micronesian island.

Go Snowden, go!

[HundertzehnGustav]

I mean like, what.
all he did is bring the news that big brother is indeed real... to the public.

Nothing wrong with that, if you ask me. I hope the man gets a face swap and a sex change, whatever it takes to slip off the Radar...
...and lives a tranquil and productive life without procecution.

[Wolferz]

Oh what a wicked web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Eddie boy collected the web and placed it on black velvet for all to see.

The spider is pissed.:stare:

[Mittelwaechter]

This crazy, well-armed, self proclaimed world police officer, brainwashed to be special, who cares about laws only if they fit to his intentions, who killed thousands of innocent civillians without being brought to justice, who spies upon everyone, including his own friends, is mad about a little boy who took a picture of his dealings, shows it to the public, and manages to hide from his revenge. He's embarrassed to be caught red handed, with his pants down and exposed to the laughter of the audience.
Expect cameras to be forbidden under the new "Patriots need no Cameras Act". Critics will be named unpatriotic, and those feeling free in their controlled surveillance will back it up, because it is the law.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

In a time of universal surveillance - telling the truth is a terroristic act.

Telling the truth seems to be a bad idea. We're joining the dark side.

[Ducimus]

I hope the obvious frustration felt does not result in the US painting themselves into a corner.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23031801

Personally, I find that obvious frustration highly amusing. Obama want's Snowden..... badly. You pile this NSA/Prism scandal on top of the IRS and everything else that's going on, and it's makes Obama look even worse then he did previously. So of course Obama want's snowden's head on a pike (metaphorically speaking). On top of that, he's exposed a blatant power/control grab by our government, and that makes the political elite's unhappy panda's when us Plebians know what their up to. That constitution and bill of rights is a pesky thing for them.



Consequences?!

What consequences, the US can't do a thing, the limits of their power and the power of the Western nations has been white-lined by Assange, and is now fairly common knowledge. Russia and China (and therefore by logical extension Hong Kong) have no love lost for the US, nor does Ecuador, Cuba and Venezuela. Ecuador will (eventually) take him in, and they will parade him in public positions, he will eventually release the rest of his information, thus keeping himself in the limelight and thus unkillable without immediate suspicion falling on the US, and then he will fade away, of little more use or consequence to either the US or its enemies. Eventually when he is in his sixties he may come back to the US out of nostalgia and will be arrested and stand trial, and then he will end his days in prison.

I would agree with an opinion that the United States does not have the global power and influence it previously enjoyed, regardless if our politicians realize it or not. I think many nations may see the US as looking inward (as well we should), and less outward, and their actions or inactions on the global stage when dealing with the US may reflect that.


That's nice. Does that somehow excuse our government from any wrongdoing? Do you say our own people spying on us is alright because "they're worse"?

Did Snowden reveal secrets that could get our own people killed? If so, then he deserves prosecution. Or is he the one who exposed all the rescent wiretapping activities? If his "crime" was to reveal illegal activities perpetrated by our own govermnent, then who is the real criminal?

Personally, I draw a distinction between Snowden and Mannings.

Snowden:
Exposed a broad over reach of governmental power and in my opinion violations of our civil liberties. In specific the fourth amendment, and he did so without revealing too much in the way of speciifcs. Names, plans, internal memos' ,etc. He just gave a summary or general overview of what our government is doing to us behind our backs. In my opinion, not a traitor, because his motives seem to be keeping with ideals of freedom and liberty, which is what our country is founded upon. Now, I wouldn't call him a hero, but I would say he has the courage to follow his convictions.

But again I don't think he's a traitor because all he did was confirm that yes, big brother IS watching, something Terrorists already knew. Now our government want's his ass because he exposed them for what their doing, and their going to break out "the tools" to sweep him and everything he said under the rug because it is a threat to their power.

Mannings:
Gave away specifics. Names, time tables, memo's, plans, etc etc, documentation that has tactical value to insurgents, terrorists and the like. That's a traitor, to his brothers in arms, and his country.

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.

Wrong in several ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA

[Jimbuna]

It's beginning to look like the Russians are resorting to the use of 'technicalities' to deny any involvement or knowledge of this gentleman's whereabouts.


Russia says it has had no involvement in the travel plans of fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden.
His whereabouts are unclear after he flew from Hong Kong to Moscow on Sunday. His passport has been revoked.
Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov insisted Mr Snowden had not crossed the border and rejected what he termed US attempts to blame Russia for his disappearance.



Correspondents say Mr Lavrov's comments suggest that Mr Snowden remained air-side after landing at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, and so has technically never entered Russian territory.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23045790

[Wolferz]

From Doctor Benjamin Carson. Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns-Hopkins.

Granted, this video has nothing to do with the topic at hand but, it does enumerate the reason/s for this subject even seeing the light of day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNYAR7SZaIw

[Mittelwaechter]

Brilliant speech!

The eagle has a right wing and an ultra-right wing. Therefore it flys a bit strange.

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe this is a good to test a drone on an American who has leaked information and currently on foreign soil.

[Mittelwaechter]

Sure, attack any suspect and if it wasn't Snowden, declare the victims sympathizers and supporters who deserve in anyway.

Standard procedure of a constitutional democracy. Suspicion is justification enough to die. Legal trials and the chance to defend yourself are just a waste of money and time.

Hit them hard and let God sort them. This is the human rights the kids in uniform fight, kill and die for.

[Jimbuna]

Putin has confirmed Snowden is in the transit area of the airport and is accompanied by legal advisers from the website Wikileaks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23053915

[Sailor Steve]

Personally, I draw a distinction between Snowden and Mannings.
I didn't mention Mannings. Didn't know who he was until you brought him up. That said, now that I do know I see that it's a good comparison. :sunny:

[Wolferz]

Does this lend some ironic similarity to the saying...
"That which you hate the most you become" ?

The USA used to be the provider of asylum. Not a place to seek asylum from.
Why no. They're not stomping on anyone's freedom. Much.

Here's some steak for your black eye Mister President.:arrgh!:
Reindeer games can get a bit brutal.

[Ducimus]

I didn't mention Mannings. Didn't know who he was until you brought him up. That said, now that I do know I see that it's a good comparison. :sunny:


I know you didn't. However when you said, "Did Snowden reveal secrets that could get our own people killed? If so, then he deserves prosecution", the first thing that came to my mind, was Mannings, and once that thought crept into my head, i couldn't help but make a comparison.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Why b*tch? America and the UK, Europe and the world population has gotten what it deserves.
each and every yank crying outrage gets what he/she deserves...
as it was for a thousand years.

[Jimbuna]

It could be argued that what comes round goes around but I don't think this issue is anywhere finished yet :hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

I know you didn't. However when you said, "Did Snowden reveal secrets that could get our own people killed? If so, then he deserves prosecution", the first thing that came to my mind, was Mannings, and once that thought crept into my head, i couldn't help but make a comparison.
Ah. Sometimes I'm so easily cornfused. :doh:

[mapuc]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I thought that there was a huge different between Manning and Snowden.

Markus

[TarJak]

It could be argued that what comes round goes around but I don't think this issue is anywhere finished yet :hmmm:

No doubt about that. This will drag on far longer than the Assange/Manning saga.

[Sailor Steve]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I thought that there was a huge different between Manning and Snowden.
As Ducimus showed, there is a huge difference. I was merely questioning how and why Mannings came into the conversation in the first place. He explained that nicely.

[Skybird]

The interesting question is: when the defence against terrorism and hostile powers is legitimate, when is the cost for such defence becoming too much? How much freedom is acceptable to be destroyed in the name of counter-terrorism monitoring of everybody, American/British and non-American/British alike? And what does it tell about the state of a society that claims to be "free" if no longer every<body is seen as innocent as long as his guilt is not proven, but is considered potentially guilty as long as not proven innocent?

But such moral questions are only luxury items. The real issue is that this apparatus that got secretly established could get so very perfectly abused by the ruling elites to control and suppress their own people, to manipulate their personal fates and lives, to tackle them if one sees fit - with them not even knowing that they get tackled.

These genies are out of the bottle. The elites will not give up on their new supertools. And since they are in bed with private business, the commercial use and abuse of all this date as well as the abuse of this data by state offices must be taken as inevitable. Laws will not change that, since paper is patient and ink dries fast.

I think these things would have come anyway, even without global terrorism. Terrorism only delivered a free excuse for it, and created the opportunity to speed the process up.

If our leaders and elites would be trustworthy and noble and good and all that, if only they were like that... But they aren't. they will not be. They cannot become that. It is against their explicit interest to be like that.

[Mr Quatro]

Even with this Snowden revelation that the NSA can and has been tracking foreign and American citizens emails, phone calls, etc to the tune of millions of hits per day ... surely they only have time for the wicked, the spys, the terrorist, the bad guys.

This is still the best country in the world and one of the sure ways to prove it is to slip in a little by law into the immigration bill now being formed in Congress that allows the NSA to do exactly what they are doing now (whatever that is).

When they swear them in just add the fact that can be monitored for life.

They don't care if you check them out ... all they want is a job and a meal and a warm place to sleep so they can send a good ole USA postal office money order home to feed their children.

I know for a fact that they have been checking me out for years ... all it does is make me a more honest person :yep:

[Mittelwaechter]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/how-trust-state-spies-citizens

[TarJak]

"I myself would prefer not to deal with these issues. It's like giving a baby pig a haircut – there's a lot of squealing but there's little wool," Putin quote FTW.

[August]

Even with this Snowden revelation that the NSA can and has been tracking foreign and American citizens emails, phone calls, etc to the tune of millions of hits per day ... surely they only have time for the wicked, the spys, the terrorist, the bad guys.

My concern is not those fighting the bad guys, it is to what other purposes this massive data mine can be used. The Feds have already been caught spying on the press and sic'ing the IRS on political groups. I don't believe they can be trusted to use this enormously powerful surveillance tool against terrorists only.

I'm not necessarily talking about this administration or the next but this enormous intelligence apparatus we've created is a loaded gun pointed at our heads. Someday someone is going to pull the trigger.

[Ducimus]

Even with this Snowden revelation that the NSA can and has been tracking foreign and American citizens emails, phone calls, etc to the tune of millions of hits per day ... surely they only have time for the wicked, the spys, the terrorist, the bad guys.

This is still the best country in the world and one of the sure ways to prove it is to slip in a little by law into the immigration bill now being formed in Congress that allows the NSA to do exactly what they are doing now (whatever that is).

When they swear them in just add the fact that can be monitored for life.

They don't care if you check them out ... all they want is a job and a meal and a warm place to sleep so they can send a good ole USA postal office money order home to feed their children.

I know for a fact that they have been checking me out for years ... all it does is make me a more honest person :yep:

Something I want to run by you..
A few random concepts like,
- probable cause (or in this case, the lack thereof)
- search warrant
- the 4th amendment

and 3 videos you might want to watch.
NSA Part 1 : I Spy With My Little Eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0HDxoTmQe4)
NSA Part 2 : Meta My Data (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA)
NSA Surveillance: Don't Care. I've Got Nothing to Hide. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VAgSdGnSQ)

[HundertzehnGustav]

question that rises in my head is this one: are they supposed and allowed to do what they do?
if yes, why hide it?
if yes, why hunt snowden?

got a similar story over here, where the secret services were doing what they wanted, the way they saw fit, and even poroposing custom laws to protect their top level people.

modifying newly proposed laws to suit their "needs". Their agendas, personal motives and the like, Berlusconi style.

Does the public know? is such stuff handed to the press? Rarely - and when it is released, the radio stations air it, and criticize.

and then get threatned by the Politicians that run the secret service.

Secret services should be dissolved... It is a sick game to play.

[Feuer Frei!]

question that rises in my head

And there's also a bigger question which folks are pondering over:

Just who is the real Traitor?

2 quotes so far, indirectly related to the question:

I’m neither traitor nor hero. I’m an American Edward Snowden



If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen Samuel Adams

[HundertzehnGustav]

so, if the second quote defines american from unamerican...
what is snowden then?

first he reveals the bad stuff, then runs for his bloody life, "nanananan you canna catch me in ecuador"

if you kick the lion in the balls, expect to get eaten. kicking the lion in the balls and then hiding up a tree... with the pack below, waiting... makes no sense to me.

either kick the lion and be ready and able to kill it...
or wait for a better opportunity to do so.

What are his motives?
his doings have me confused.

at first sight, he is dum as a rock however a brilliant mind he might have.

[Betonov]

Perhaps he knows about the lion but the vilagers didnt and he hopes that by kicking the lion, the vilagers will see it and kill it, since he cant do it by himself.

And he ran up the tree to yell even more about the location of the lion and give the vilagers time to prepare for the fight.

But the vilagers spent their time discusing who's an elephant and who's the donkey.

[Feuer Frei!]

Another question for the community here:

W Snowden is a true patriot. True or false?

And a quote to follow that up, made by Thomas Paine:

"The duty of a true Patriot is to protect his Country from its Government:.

It's funny, not as in ha-ha funny, that a person like James Clapper for example, lied during sworn testimony before Congress about spying on millions of Americans because he didn’t think he’d be caught. He was caught red handed. And no one is calling for his apprehension and imprisonment.

What i also find funny is that the ruling bodies, with their corresponding mouth pieces in the media, liberal and conservative alike, along with politicians on both sides of the fence, unscrupulous military commanders and deceitful government bureaucrats have all rallied to shield their existing surveillance state.

Well, shouldn't really be too surprising, come to think of it.

Leon Trotsky, part of a brutal surveyllance state said:

"The real criminals hide under the cloak of the accusers".


As for his motives?
Are you referring to him running? Or his motif for exposing the truth?

The latter should be very clear. Crystal-clear infact.

[HundertzehnGustav]

kind of, yes.

"i show you how they mess with you"
"they will hunt me"
"killem all"

Big brother is a reality.
so what the world gonna do bout it, eh? Nobody givs a rats ass, which is why the situation has become possible in the first place.

That he didnt understand. brilliant mind and retard all in one body.

[HundertzehnGustav]

if you have a motivation, also bring the tools, or at least a plan on how to achieve the goal of your motivation.

so far i see nothing of that sort. just him ducking and sleeping on a bench in russia.

I agree it is high time to get the piano strings and hang a few politicians, be they friends or fathers... for what damage they do and distrust they sow, anger they provoke and how they split the population, set them up against one another, and stay in position of power.
It is time to shake the system, to burn it to the ground and restart from scratch with the same old Ideals, new ideas how to maintain them, and our environment, ....and the old politicians and powerful people dead in a mass grave.

But

will it happen?
so far the answer is no.
IF (!) that was his goal, to create outrage and rolling heads...
he failed.

...so far.

So far, Humans get what they deserve.
in brazil, they were rioting.
In europe people are yawning.

stupid people.

[Feuer Frei!]

"i show you how they mess with you"
"they will hunt me"
"killem all"


Well, if you are loosely referring to his motif for exposing the truth, then let me quote the man himself, since it is from the horses' mouth:

I can't allow the US Government to destroy privacy and basic liberties

Words of a traitor? I think not!

By the way, whilst we are on the subject of 'who is really the traitor', as i posted earlier, and Snowden being called a Traitor by my aforementioned 'characters', for want of a better word,
treason is addressed in Article III Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.


Patriotism is defined as:
A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

Now, correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i'm aware Congress hasn't declared war on anyone, have they?
If not, then going by the definition of Traitor made in the Constitution, Snowden isn't a traitor.

Big brother is a reality.
Only if exposed.
The more transparency the better.

so what the world gonna do bout it, eh? Do about it? Hopefully see that being a patriot does not mean that you are a traitor. Nobody givs a rats ass Really? The coverage of this seems to suggest otherwise. The aforementioned folks who are calling him a traitor would seem to suggest otherwise too. Do you give a rat's ass as to whether a government's alleged wrongdoings should be exposed and have the full amount of transparency shed on their dealings? Do you give a rats' arse whether the definition of patriot and traitor run into each other and become blurred? I hope you do, because i do. Any law-abiding citizen should give a rat's arse as to what is going on here, and more importantly, what the outcome will be which is why the situation has become possible in the first place.
I don't understand this.

retard
I think he's far from being a retard, as you so diplomatically put it.

Woulod a retard be currently in the Moskau airport, transient section for instance?

[HundertzehnGustav]

what is the world going to DO about it, that is the goal, the aim of my question.

yes, there is talk.
but talk is all there is.
looking out the window, all is quiet here. I mean like... the UK might search the packets i am sending to subsim now... nobody protesting against such activities, the british Ambassy is not on fire yet... Nor is the American Ambassy.

not that i suggest throwing molotov coctails, but... all is quiet. I would have hoped for more vigourous, immediate, fierce reactions of protest coming right from the concerned folks - average John all over the world.

I mean... spying on the world's mails and phone conversations...?
Spies usually get caught, smacked and sent home, at best. If not imprisoned, questioned and beaten the hell out of them during questioning.

Why not just say: we from Luxembourg are going to hold the brits and the US here till we get the answers we are looking for, on this big fat spying operations that the US of A have launched decades ago?
do the Patriot thing and protect our country best way we can from such crap?
Square off their offices and start making demands for information?







BUT... since talk is all there is, i suggest that talk is all there ever will be on the subject.

Are people from the American Secret Services and British Secret Services going to lose their jobs? High Ranking people that made the decisions that led to this situation of mistrust? Next week?
Is the population of the USA, of England, of China going to know the Answers they are seeking?

No.

And since in the USA and the UK, people are not starting to agressively hunt down these snoopers, can i understand that the population of these countries is "okay" with this monitoring of Traffic?

if these counties populations are OKAY with what is happening, are they still my friends?

i would like to believe, love to see your secret services burn. Our own "secret services" burn, for they do nothing but split people and confuse them, spread distrust.

American institutons surrounded by a chanting mass of american patriots, who do not want their own traffic monitored, databased and analized. That are aware that This affects dozens of countries, countries that are like neighbors?

I would love to see that hapening, above all FAST.
Faster than Bush sent your troops to Nam II, because these Services are like Acid to your own country, any country, much worse than what ever happened on that september day.

But humans are content. As long as their stomach is filled, nobody acts.
so... we also get what we deserve.

Completely aside from precise definitions and current laws and regulations and administrative paperwork and lawyer speech.

[Feuer Frei!]

Action is what's needed. I hear you.

Let me just point this out to you:

At this point in time the greatest fear is apathy, ignorance and delusional thinking.
Ignorance of what? Apathy of what? Delusional thinking about what?

I'll tell you:
Freedom or tyranny. That's what.
Will enough people stand and fight? Change will not happen through the ballots box.
It'll require people like Snowden to expose the truth. Taking to the streets and leading the populous forward.

He sums it up perfectly:

The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] won’t be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things… And in the months ahead, the years ahead, it’s only going to get worse. [The NSA will] say that… because of the crisis, the dangers that we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny.

[HundertzehnGustav]

So how can he lead the people from godforsaken russia?

speaking for myself, i have lost hope in fat, content western countries bringing about change - using pitchforks and haulin butt kind of change.
my fears are his fears.
i fear humans are not worth of time and history remembering them.

But i would grab a pitchfork, and join the frey, if there was one to join.
take a day off to throw rotten eggs at an institution... if sait institution is harming the country i live in. why not?

Why the yanks not getting mad yet?

This man has the knowledge of what went wrong. he publishes it , and then runs off. (bad move n°1)
then is silly enough to keep up his hopes of change, without him being present to lead the wolfpack. (bad move n°2)

traitor or not, is not the question i ask.
i feel he has an honest interest to give the population what they deserve: knowledge of what their NSA is up to.

But is he a coward? his actions point into that direction!
Did he have an option to do better? i think so. i hope so.
I wish he would have gathered powerful friends and been present to bring about the change... that he ultimately wants.

[Feuer Frei!]

@ Hundertzehn:

why is he running?
Coward? No, far from it.

I like my quotes as you may have gathered by now, but, it is contextual, quoting here.

Well, i'll quote the iron Duke, commonly referred to as First Duke of Wellington, amongst other things, commander of British troops during Peninsular war and defeater of Napoleon at Waterloo:

"The true test of a general, is knowing when to retreat and to have the courage to do it."

Now what does this mean?
It means that, just as Wellington knew, that if one wants to beat a superior force, one must dictate the where and the when of the fight.

It's actually quiete obvious, to me at least, that going on the run as a political fugitive is not only part of a great and grand tradition, but is an entirely legitimate, practical and tactical choice given the grim record of the people who are shouting: “Seize him!”.

After all, why would a whistle-blower stand and trade punches with the administration which has had Bradly Manning caged up for 3 years!

Makes sense to me why he doesn't stand and fight.

[Catfish]

Didn't William Binney say the same years ago ... from trailblazer and stellar wind, to prism or boundless informant - it was all made public years ago, and should be well known (?)

'He told you so'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMwQSybOp9M

'Growing state surveillance'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gimRzlqDNME

B.t.w. the first operations reaching that extent were underway in 2001.
I think the government tries to save its ass, because they certainly did know a bit of that, but were lied to by the secret services about the extent of those operations.
So it is very compromising for a government to a) having unintentionally lied (being not informed by the services) to the public, and b) thus giving evidence of obviously not being able to control those agencies, thus admitting incompetence.

The question of course is whether any government or congress, is able to control the clandestine actions of their own secret services, worldwide ? MI agencies and GCHQ in England. BND, MAD and 'Verfassungsschutz' (b.t.w. founded by the US against communists alone, what a laugh) in Germany ...
Or in other words: Who really rules, in those 'democracies' ?

[HundertzehnGustav]

Well, i have never whitnessed such tactics.
as long as he is untouchable, he can speak and publis^h
if he finds someone saying "screw the POTUS and his Crew", we give him shelter and provide him with a base to operate from...

but for snowden it is a dangerous game, that can be ended by the force of a sniper Bullet faster than extradiction and trial.

he put his life on the line, even as he ran away (do not tell me there are no plans to silence him forever). With the prospect of waking up his peers, in a long and difficult process.

Still stands...
what he does confuses me, and i do not claim to understand his strategy one bit. Maybe i need to study similar people more, Rebels that overthrew oppressive systems, pulled the evil out of the shadow of scecrecy.

Only hope he does not lose his momentum and his Vision, but manages to hook up with similar minded (ahem.. Assange?) people and mobilize the Masses.

For it is whistleblowers like him that wake up the world with a bang and a message...

"on your feet, man the guns, you have been screwed over"!!!

[Catfish]

The term of 'whistleblower' itself, ist still connected to a policeman, or a person trying to stop a thief getting away .. nothing bad about it.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Now look at that!
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Briten-schweigen-zum-Spaehprogramm-article10889281.html

germany asks questions over worries in a question catalog over several pages.
London answers "this is none of your business".

and obama is pissed at putin giving shelter to snowden?
How about physically (Layer 1) disconnecting the wires to and from that island...?

:haha::haha:

Years ago i thought: turn afghanistan into one big glass surface.
now i think "hang the western leaders"

[Catfish]

^ bastards lol :)
I just don't think our BND would do anything else if it could, i just think they do not play in the same league.
"We plead for incompetence" lol


A bit OT:
It really is like connecting the dots, here the US surveillance program of the 1970ies "Cointelpro' :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
still in effect b.t.w., under a different name.



"[...]The intended effect of the FBI's COINTELPRO was to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, or otherwise neutralize" groups that the FBI believed were "subversive" by instructing FBI field operatives to:
create a negative public image for target groups (e.g. by surveiling activists, and then releasing negative personal information to the public)
break down internal organization
create dissension between groups
restrict access to public resources
restrict the ability to organize protests
restrict the ability of individuals to participate in group activities [...]"
Not so much of a 'democracy' :hmmm:
Of course telling in court that they never did such things, is not lying. It is 'avoiding the issue'.

[HundertzehnGustav]

sounds pretty much like "keep us(the white elite?) in power, disrupt anything, anyones efforts to bring about changes, however necessary they might seem, by using whatever tools you need"


:har:

That countrie's structure is such a lame Joke it seems.
Pretty much a copy of France before the revolution.

[Mittelwaechter]

Exactly!

That's what we see.

The elite of aristocracy and church was brought to fall by the grown education of the people, provided by the spread of knowlege, information and communication through gutenberg's book print. It was a slow process, covering centuries, but finally it happened.

Democracy was established, power and control should be given to the elected representants of the people. Well, this went downhill, because the aristocracy kept their influence and control through money - capitalism/corporatism - you name it. In simple words -they bought the elected polititians. The USA ensures to have the best president money can buy, right?
(The development didn't synchronize around the world, some other forms of elite showed up. We may discuss clerical and socialist leadership sometime, but let's stay with our western development right now.)

Some political lead elites went crazy - Germany, Italy, Spain... - and the other capital driven democraties ended their rulership or they were overcome by their own people.

In the following decades the capitalist elites prospered, and they were clever enough to share some profit with the people. The communist/socialist systems were a counterweight to a totally free market.

With the end of the communists, this counterweight disappeared. The economical moral was thrown overboard and the ugly face of an uncontrolled, greedy and misanthropic system appeared. For the enormous wealth of a few, an enormous number of people has to die, to starve or to live in slavery labor conditions.

The military lost its enemy - the source for tax money. A new enemy had to be established. Well...

But now - with the internet - the education grows again, way faster and more intense than ever before. The elites have lost control over information, interpretation, over reality and truth of the people, needed for the motivation to act, to attack, to buy, to accept.... The controlled media - the heir of the churches job - are going head over heels to counter this loss. Desinformation, lies, intentional misinterpretation, distraction and the well tested injection of discord into the society are the weapons of choice. It works.

The elite is well aware of the danger. Their world is on the edge of revolution. Many people still simply continue in the circle of daily routines, of work, consumption, desinformation and manipulation. But more and more do realize the brutal injustice, the true benefit scroungers, the only winners of the system and of their tax money.

Some have to have three jobs to make a living. Others don't find a lucrative investment opportunity for their money. They call for better infrastructure, for better education, for a superior military bla bla bla - but they want to reduce the tax amount. Guess why? Without enough taxes, the society has to borrow more money to pay its duties. Who has money to offer in exchange for an attractive rate of interest?

We'll see what comes next...

[soopaman2]

I have alot more respect for Bradley Manning, he did not run off to 2 hostile countries with laptops full of information....

I am sorry, I appreciate what he did to expose this, but the fact he ran off to China and Russia, with info in his possession, is exactly why he should be hunted down.

If he wanted to whistleblow, he could have without going to Russia and China with laptops full of classified info.

Snowden is not a hero...

And how does a HS dropout get a job in the NSA, with the highest security clearances??

Bradley Manning, you got balls, Edward is a pansy, who thinks he can get fame like Assange.

A wannabe hero. Snowden stated he intentionally joined to expose info, sounds like a spy to me

[mapuc]

you know what!? If Yubba had posted some link and written something about this story a few years ago or so

We would have laughed at him and mocked him.

Markus

[Ducimus]

I have alot more respect for Bradley Manning, he did not run off to 2 hostile countries with laptops full of information....

I am sorry, I appreciate what he did to expose this, but the fact he ran off to China and Russia, with info in his possession, is exactly why he should be hunted down.

If he wanted to whistleblow, he could have without going to Russia and China with laptops full of classified info.

Snowden is not a hero...

And how does a HS dropout get a job in the NSA, with the highest security clearances??

Bradley Manning, you got balls, Edward is a pansy, who thinks he can get fame like Assange.

A wannabe hero. Snowden stated he intentionally joined to expose info, sounds like a spy to me

Citations needed.

From what I heard, he ran because he had no choice, and revealed his identity so people would pay attention, rather then go back to sleep like people are apt to do.

Also, it seems entirely too common that the people who are most staunchly against the exposure of what our government is doing to us, tend to be hardline democrats and liberal progressives who not only like, but enjoy the big brother, big government nanny state.


edit:

you know what!? If Yubba had posted some link and written something about this story a few years ago or so

We would have laughed at him and mocked him.

Markus

Entirely too true.

[soopaman2]

Calling me a hardline democrat Ducimus proves your ignorance.

So why did Manning not run?

Snowden ran to China, then Russia, and is preparing to go to Cuba and Equador, real American hero.:timeout:

[soopaman2]

In a conference call with reporters on Monday, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange stayed mostly quiet about Edward Snowden's travel plans (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/24/edward_snowden_missing_nsa_leaker_edward_snowden_m issing_from_flight_from.html). But while Assange refused to comment on Snowden's whereabouts ("he is in a safe place and his spirits are high"), he still managed to make news by implying that the NSA leaker may have turned over the four laptops he left Hawaii with (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile) to one or more media outlets. According to the Guardian, those laptops may contain access to "some of the US government’s most highly-classified secrets."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/24/julian_assange_edward_snowden_is_not_a_traitor.htm l


Snowden is a spy.

[Ducimus]

Calling me a hardline democrat Ducimus proves your ignorance.


You sure talk like one, and after all the bulll crap liberal progressive tried to do over the last six months or so, I can't say i have a high opinion of that ideology either. I am convinced that if there is a single ideology that has the greatest chance of sending the US into a totalitarian tyrannical state, it is the Democrats and liberal progressives. No, the Republican's aren't that much better since it was a republican president that passed the Patriot act. But the ideology that will surrender rights and freedoms for the illusion of safety the most? Liberal progressives.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/24/julian_assange_edward_snowden_is_not_a_traitor.htm l


Snowden is a spy.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what snowden is, nor do I care what he might have on him. If he does have detailed files about what the NSA is doing, so much the better I say. The entire prism/surveillance thing needs to be, and should be, dismantled anyway.

Despite that, I still say Snowden is not of concern. He's a sideshow, a distraction of the real issue. What is of concern, is what the government is doing. THAT is what is important. Snowden, despite opening his mouth, quite frankly isn't important. I'm reserving judgement on him, because frankly, he doesn't interest me near enough to care. What I do care about is our constitutional rights, our freedom and liberty, and government abuse and overreach.

"Land of the free, home of the brave." Do you remember that? I know I do. We all should ask ourselves, at what point will we no longer be a free land, and courage all but gone? Probably at the point where we allow the government to take our freedoms from us because were scared some angry doucehbags got a visit from "The Good Idea fairy".

[CaptainHaplo]

Snowden is no more a coward that George Washington was.

Washington, having retreated north from NY, lost at White Plains and ended up getting chased all over New Jersey and Pennsylvania. He knew he couldn't win the battle, so he refused to fight it. He "ran away" to continue the fight. Snowden did the same - instead of just waiting to get buried under the jail like Manning did - or simply never even hear the shot that puts a round through his braincase.

Oh - he has "classified stuff" on his laptops. Yeah well we knew that, since the stuff he leaked was classified to start with. Just because its "highly classified" does not mean its vital to our national security. It can easily mean its stuff that our own government does not want us to know it is doing to us - like SPYING on us. It is likely what he has is significant logistical information on the HOW, WHERE, WHEN and (most importantly) WHO for many of these programs. So calling him a traitor - when all he has done so far that has been proven is notify the people of this country that their government has been secretly violating their constitutional rights. If that is your definition of what a traitor is, then you would have been in agreement with King George that the 57 signers of the Declaration of Independence were traitors and worthy of death.

I see them as patriots who - after attempting to resolve their issues with their government (and king) in 1775 through the Declaration of Arms, had no choice but to rise up and through off the shackles of a government that refused to abide by its own laws. Kind of like what the US Gubment is doing today....

Obviously, we have a disagreement on what a traitor is then....

[HundertzehnGustav]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/24/julian_assange_edward_snowden_is_not_a_traitor.htm l


Snowden is a spy.

So far, lets check...

1. a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs.


...nope.





2. a person who keeps close and secret watch on the actions and words of another or others.

...the US gov't as well as Snowden.


3. a person who seeks to obtain confidential information about the activities, plans, methods, etc., of an organization (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organization) or person, especially one who is employed for this purpose by a competitor: an industrial spy.

...nope.


4. the act of spying.

5. to observe secretively or furtively with hostile intent (often followed by on or upon ).

...none.


6. to act as a spy; engage in espionage.

...both sides



7. to be on the lookout; keep watch.

...both sides.

8. to search for or examine something closely or carefully.

...we all better!:rotfl2:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spy

which spy is worse, the guy that exposes the government as a giant tapping your wires and wirelesses
or the gov't that spies on yall "for your common security"


anyone answering with "i trust my poiticians more than snowden"
should be ripped off freedom and security, for you traded freedom in for security and deserve neither.

right?

I mean like...
simplez, eh :D

[HundertzehnGustav]

which spy is worse, the guy that exposes the government as a giant tapping your wires and wirelesses
or the gov't that spies on yall "for your common security"

t answer my own question:
I rather see Obama and his crooks hung by their balls than Snowden even in an interrogation.

because them be spying and searching data that is passing the worldwide Networks.

[soopaman2]

Big yellow text makes me wrong!

Good job!

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/snowden-took-booz-allen-job-with-intent-to-expose-nsa/

Edward Snowden was a man on a mission: according to his latest interview, he took a private contractor position with the intent of exposing the National Security Agency. “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,” he told The South China Morning Post on June 12 (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa-surveillance). “That is why I accepted that position about three months ago.”

Glad he told the Chinese this, must be looking for a job.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/24/4460028/edward-snowden-booz-allen-nsa-contractor-job

Here too.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/25/politics/nsa-leak-snowden-job

And here...

Oh such a hero, he took the job to leak it, and you still defend him?

Then he ran to China and Russia with laptops full of info.

I see him in another class from Bradley Manning, this guy is not disgruntled but an intentional spy.


What he exposed is important, how he came about the info, then ran to hostile nations with it, is disgusting.

(edit: nothing worries you about this man gallivanting around russia, china , and soon Cuba and S America with national secrets worries you?

Manning at least had the balls to face those he accused.

[HundertzehnGustav]

A)
was he sent by those countries to
B)
share his info with them?

that would make him a spy.

if yes, he signed his death Warrant.

and yes, i defend him.
an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

by snooping on the networks, the US of A have made the world their enemy. and if not that, has removed the "friends" badge off a bunch of countries.
because you do not spy on your friends. You spy on your enemies.

if snowden is teh enemy of the US of A, he be my buddy for life...:D

because the guilty entity in here is the apparatus that the American population has created. allowed to develop. put in place. let rise to that position.
To me... the americans as such are guilty.

...if i push my POV to the extreme.


and no,he can travel where he wants. he aint carrying my countries secrets around.
the dude doesn't even know my country exists. hah.

[soopaman2]

A)
was he sent by those countries to
B)
share his info with them?

that would make him a spy.

if yes, he signed his death Warrant.

and yes, i defend him.
an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

by snooping on the networks, the US of A have made the world their enemy. and if not that, has removed the "friends" badge off a bunch of countries.
because you do not spy on your friends. You spy on your enemies.

if snowden is teh enemy of the US of A, he be my buddy for life...:D

because the guilty entity in here is the apparatus that the American population has created. allowed to develop. put in place. let rise to that position.
To me... the americans as such are guilty.

...if i push my POV to the extreme.

So you wish to see America suffer because you hate us, thanks for being honest.

What did I do to you? my name is Chris, I am married with no kids, have 3 cats and a dog, and work 48 hours a week.

What did I do to you?

[Ducimus]

What he exposed is important, how he came about the info, then ran to hostile nations with it, is disgusting.

(edit: nothing worries you about this man gallivanting around russia, china , and soon Cuba and S America with national secrets worries you?

Manning at least had the balls to face those he accused.

Personally, our own government worries me infinitely more then anything Snowden might be doing. The amount of scandal and abuse that has been coming out of the capital over the last couple months is staggering and appalling. The NSA having EVERYONE under computer surveillance at all times, is like arsenic laced icing on a rotten maggot infested cake that our elected officials assure is healthy for us and tastes great.

[soopaman2]

Personally, our own government worries me infinitely more then anything Snowden might be doing. The amount of scandal and abuse that has been coming out of the capital over the last couple months is staggering and appalling. The NSA having EVERYONE under computer surveillance at all times, is like arsenic laced icing on a rotten maggot infested cake that our elected officials assure is healthy for us and tastes great.


Being somewhat reasonable I have to agree.

I cannot even stake this on Obama, this is institutional and has been going on long before him.

"We the people" lost our standing a long time ago.

How long until we are screaming at images of Goldstein on the telescreen, well not too long, all hail Oceania!

[CaptainHaplo]

Oh such a hero, he took the job to leak it, and you still defend him?


Lets see - an American citizen with the intent of exposing governmental corruption and illegal action. Said citizen was successful. Yep - so far I see nothing wrong with that.

Then he ran to China and Russia with laptops full of info.

Of course he ran - his life was in serious danger if not totally over if he stayed. You really think he would have gotten a "fair trial" when the government would have done its utmost to make sure no one ever heard about him?

As for "laptops full of info" - what info do they have? You are assuming his guilt when you don't know what that info is. Of course - it may be that you choose to "believe in your government" that every "classified" thing is truly important to our nation - when, as we have seen with this whole issue is that the government does "classify" things simply to hide its illegal actions from its own victims - uhm...citizenry.

Your declaring him a traitor using Guilty until proven Innocent - yet you have no idea what he has on those laptops....

What he exposed is important, how he came about the info, then ran to hostile nations with it, is disgusting.

How he came by the info - you mean "snooping" on the government like it does us? So how do we keep government in check without people willing to tell us what our government is doing? You don't expect uncle sam to tell you himself, do you?

(edit: nothing worries you about this man gallivanting around russia, china , and soon Cuba and S America with national secrets worries you? [\quote]

Given that our government has not accused him of providing any "national secrets" to foreign entities - which WOULD make him a spy - not really. See - they just haven't thought to go that far yet. Give it time - the accusation will come. The thing is - some national "secrets" shouldn't be secret - because they shouldn't exist. Others should. You don't know what he has on those laptops - and neither do I.

[quote]Manning at least had the balls to face those he accused.

Manning gave out information that got people targeted and killed. Whether those people deserved that fate or not is irrelevant. Snowden's revelation has not let to any such targeting or death. He revealed that our government was doing something illegal to its own citizens. While the PURPOSE behind both may have been the same - aka holding government actions to account - the Snowden revelation show a clearly illegal act perpetrated at the expense of the rights of the American citizen. Manning's situation - and outcome are significantly different.

There is a huge difference. One got people killed - the other has (to date that we know of) simply held the facts up to the people without causing death.

Kind of like the difference between a guy who steals a candy bar and a guy who steals a candy bar and then causes a few people to choke to death on it. One is guilty of a minor infraction at best - the other is guilty of murder.

[Tribesman]

There is a huge difference. One got people killed - the other has (to date that we know of) simply held the facts up to the people without causing death.

The authorities were asked to back up that claim made about Manning. They dropped the claim because it was nonsense.

[Tribesman]

Double post

[Catfish]

Manning gave out information that got people targeted and killed.
[...] There is a huge difference. One got people killed - the other has (to date that we know of) simply held the facts up to the people without causing death

Who exactly got killed by Bradley Manning ?
Was it one, or several ? Names and situations please - and evidence.

Who was murdered by the orders made public by him ?

Wasn't it him who made the video of the atrocious Apache 'attack' on unarmed civilians, two Reuters correspondents and the driver public. Remember the laughter and the words of the pilot ?
Along with the orders how to treat muslims and with which pretext to arrest them, to raise POW numbers and fill up Guantanmo, for scapegoats?
What about drone attacks killing innocent bystanders (more than hundreds meanwhile) and supected (!) criminals, without a fair trial ?

'Patrotism'. We are talking of collateral murder and international war crime evidence here. We would not know anything about this, without him.
Isn't it more patriotic to stand up and talk about obvious atrocities being committed during clandestine operations while telling lies to the american public ?

Manning got his behind in a much more dangerous situation than Snowden, he risked more, and being in the military he was well aware of what to come. But he still staid and let himself imprisoned, to make a case.
Say what you want, to stay shows some courage.


I am beginning to hate all this, the more you hear and read the more atrocious it all gets. But it still is my opinion that this has to be mentioned, talked about, and judged. To keep all those people (remember Binney and Drake) silent by whatever means is a crime on free speech and freedom itself.
To stage trials against those men is done for one reason only, to divert from the real criminals.

It is not the whistleblower who committed the primary crime.

"If they can convince the American people that this case is about mental state of a single troubled kid from Crescent, Oklahoma, then the propaganda war has been won already.
[...]
This whole thing, this trial, it all comes down to one simple equation. If you can be punished for making public a crime, then the government doing the punishing is itself criminal."
(Rolling stone, last week)

[CaptainHaplo]

Who exactly got killed by Bradley Manning ?
Was it one, or several ? Names and situations please - and evidence.
Who was murdered by the orders made public by him ?

4 deaths at least can be linked to the Manning/Wikileaks debacle.

Chris Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty, Tyrone Woods.

Stevens wrote a classified memo that named Derna as a major source of extremist manpower going into Iraq. Derna is right outside Benghazi. Even Rachel Maddow admitted that Al Qaeda documents show that Derna has been the source of more "holy warriors" than any other place in the entire Arab world.

Every fact we now have on Benghazi shows it was a targeted hit. Manning's leak highlighted Stevens as pointing out a major manpower source for Islamic extremists. Al Qaeda got a target - and the ineptitude of our State Department allowed them to successfully target someone who represented a threat to them - because he exposed Derna. 3 others died because of that as well.

To see the cable - click the following link:
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2008/02/08TRIPOLI120.html

Wasn't it him who made the video of the atrocious Apache 'attack' on unarmed civilians, two Reuters correspondents and the driver public.

You might should go review that video - and review one that does more than just show the attack. This one actually shows the lead up - and confirms that there were weapons and not just 2 guys with cameras. So unless you have some really whacked definition of "unarmed" your claim is simply incorrect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo

Specifically, look at 0:45 (which shows the two cameramen with camera's) to 0:57 which shows 2 additional men with weapons coming into view. Even with the camera's mis-identified it was - as the soldiers report - an "armed group" - which in case you didn't know was a violation of Iraqi law at the time.

Or better yet - watch the WHOLE video in context - instead of just the main wikileaks edited version...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1270800204

And yes - there were AK-47's and RPG's found in the aftermath....

Remember the laughter and the words of the pilot ?
Actually that was the CPG talking. But yes - I do. I remember them confirming - per the ROE - that weapons were identified. Laughter... Ever been in combat? Different people deal with it different ways. Judge it how you will, but you do so in ignorance. It was a nervous laughter, a coping mechanism. I don't condone it per se, but to not understand its context and judge it harshly is unfair at best.

Along with the orders how to treat muslims and with which pretext to arrest them, to raise POW numbers and fill up Guantanmo, for scapegoats?

I have never seen such orders, but if you have a link I don't mind reviewing it. Educate me if you have the facts to back up the claim.

What about drone attacks killing innocent bystanders (more than hundreds meanwhile) and supected (!) criminals, without a fair trial?

And when a shooter is in a mosque or other spot, we should lose who knows how many lives trying to apprehend him and give him a fair trial? Combat isn't pretty - but just like in the Apache video, the ROE was followed. No one likes collateral damage - but who is to blame, the person that hides in a crowd and shoots from it, or the people that take out the shooter to stop the combat situation cold? I know where my answer is.

'Patrotism'. We are talking of collateral murder and international war crime evidence here. We would not know anything about this, without him.

Again you don't understand ROE's apparently. The Iraqi government agreed US forces could operate in their country - but to gain that agreement we had to create specific ROE's. Thus, in the Apache video, weapons had to be identified before a strike could take place. They were, and the operation was conducted within the guidelines for consent by the legally elected government of Iraq. Don't like it? Take it up with them.

Isn't it more patriotic to stand up and talk about obvious atrocities being committed during clandestine operations while telling lies to the american public ?

There is nothing patriotic about trying to smear people by saying people running around the street with AK-47's and RPG's shooting at our people as "unarmed". There is nothing patriotic about editing video to take it out of context and mislead. See the full video link....

Manning got his behind in a much more dangerous situation than Snowden, he risked more, and being in the military he was well aware of what to come. But he still staid and let himself imprisoned, to make a case.

He didn't risk more. At worst, he gets a firing squad - but that will never happen. In reality, he risks a life term in prison. Snowden - risked a .338 A-Square (or similar) round in his head. Even "worst case" they both risked their lives in one way or the other.

Say what you want, to stay shows some courage.
Perhaps - but not much smarts. Making sure you can continue the fight shows both. See my earlier George Washington reference.

I am beginning to hate all this, the more you hear and read the more atrocious it all gets. But it still is my opinion that this has to be mentioned, talked about, and judged. To keep all those people (remember Binney and Drake) silent by whatever means is a crime on free speech and freedom itself. To stage trials against those men is done for one reason only, to divert from the real criminals.
It is not the whistleblower who committed the primary crime.

On that we agree.

[HundertzehnGustav]

So you wish to see America suffer because you hate us, thanks for being honest.

What did I do to you? my name is Chris, I am married with no kids, have 3 cats and a dog, and work 48 hours a week.

What did I do to you?

well, you are an american who voted his politicians.
these politicians, with your permission, have created this mess.
and if you are too young for that, then it was the generation before you. Your parents. grandparents.

so thanks for that, man...
you say you go about your daily life and do no harm.
but you aint watching your politicians either, are you? are you checking what they do in your name?
You handed your power to some guy you believe in, and that is that. See you in four years.

as i said: it is not my current position to hate an individual. I still think anmericans rock, and hard.
but somehow, somewhere this mess has been voted and created.

Same about the brits sitting on the Data Highways scanning the world's mails.
i mean like WTF brits!!!

a) what have you done?
b) what you gonna do to remove this scanning system to restore net neutrality and our friendship?


The POTUS and the King of Russia are having a verbal go at each other, right.
but this affects the entire planet. Germans are throwing crap at the brits. Chinese officially pissed abut the Yanks. (not that either country is not spying on its own people, eh...)
I bet this surveilance system(s) is poisoning relations between countries all over the world.

thanks for that, country of the Free!

"US warns of Snowden consequences"

"world warns snooping countries of consequences" should be the more appropriate approach.

:/\\!!:stare:

[Bubblehead1980]

The "National Security Consequences" they speak of are nothing more than propaganda from the government. They are angry because their actions have been exposed, a campaign of disinformation is being waged, they want to catch him, lock him up and throw away the key.I wouldn't be surprised if they have the audacity to kill him or if he just disappears.This man is a hero, he did something few in a position to do so have done or would have done, he is not a spy nor a traitor but patriot, he is on the run because he knows the US government will kill him or capture him and most likely make him wish he were dead.Again, he did something few in his position have done or have the guts to do, expose the group of criminals running the government of the United States.Almost nothing will spur the American people now days, the lack of real reaction to this is why they keep pushing.A massive recall campaign for nearly every congressmen and senator should be launched, after an objective congress is sworn in should impeach him and save us from the nightmare that we are trapped in.This is unacceptable by any standard, was under Bush but has greatly expanded under obama.Orwell should have titled his book 2013.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Thank you.

[Tribesman]

4 deaths at least can be linked to the Manning/Wikileaks debacle.

Chris Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty, Tyrone Woods.

Stevens wrote a classified memo that named Derna as a major source of extremist manpower going into Iraq. Derna is right outside Benghazi. Even Rachel Maddow admitted that Al Qaeda documents show that Derna has been the source of more "holy warriors" than any other place in the entire Arab world.

Every fact we now have on Benghazi shows it was a targeted hit. Manning's leak highlighted Stevens as pointing out a major manpower source for Islamic extremists. Al Qaeda got a target - and the ineptitude of our State Department allowed them to successfully target someone who represented a threat to them - because he exposed Derna. 3 others died because of that as well.


What absolute bollox:doh:
If however Manning told the press that a CIA front was working in Benghazi to recover missiles looted from Daffys arsenal you might have a point about a target being given to the terrorists.
But it was Doherty who made that information public wasn't it.:yep:

[Mittelwaechter]

DISTRACTION at work.

The controlled media distracts the public away from the dealings and wheelings of the government against the public and breeds 'discussion' among the public to point any action against itself.
Information is interpreted by controlled media to create a reality that motivates the people in a way the rulers seem fit. Followers are welcome, neutrality is welcome (it supports the stronger by default), critics are unpatriotic.

The support of a government that declares any evil doings of the government - total surveillance of the society, lies, torture, war crimes, terror, murder - to be secret, so nobody can tell or talk about it any more.
What does this tell us about a society?

[HundertzehnGustav]

Distraction!

also Discreditaton...?

That is what i often observe, especially the rare times i watch TV shows.
The moderator is asking questions to A as well to B.

A can not prove a thing, but spills acid on B.
No matter what facts and proof B tries to come up with... he is cooked.

discreditation, diffamation manipulation and opinion are more effective than stepping back and using your own brains.

as i understand the situation , the US gov't has tools: Use the Government elements, Senators or the like to push the intermediate level (corporations) in publishing facts and stories to form an opinion.
Add to that the rvocation of his passport, warrants to his arrest...

The media is newspapers, Radio, TV run by red or blue factions are all under the US gov't Rule, and not neutral at all.
oh they Try... but bee too neutral about the subject, you get your fingers slapped as well, and branded as unpatriotic.
Anyone publically openly supporting that evil whistleblower will get in trouble like you would under Stalin...:hmm2:

Snowden has tools - the net and a few trustees, themselves at risk of being killed, and the net as a base to publish his messages.

what is sad is he can not reach the entire internet connected population... themselves supervised, snooped on, manipulated... by countries like china.

[Hottentot]

Anyone publically openly supporting that evil whistleblower will get in trouble like you would under Stalin...:hmm2:

I haven't heard of Snowden's family being randomly arrested on unrelated charges to make him come back and personally co-operate with Obama, but would be intrigued to hear more about this. It would be a great addition to my thesis' introduction and conclusion chapters.

[Mittelwaechter]

Stalin's methods are a no-no for the US?

The US send troops to murder innocent bystanders of people who are suspects. They kill suspects without any legal trial. They torture innocent people to give information about their families and friends. It is even legal to kill Americans, if the government thinks fit.

Ecuador offers support for Snowden.
Will Ecuador have to face US economic sanctions?

[Hottentot]

Stalin's methods are a no-no for the US?

I don't know about that, since I'm sheep enough to read the mainstream media. But having studied the era of high Stalinism rather extensively lately, I would definitely say that dancing on the graves of the victims of a real genocide to make a point is.


Ecuador offers support for Snowden.
Will Ecuador have to face US economic sanctions?Well, based on my International Politics 101 course I got indoctrinated to believe that the US is now probably not going to send a Happy Birthday -card to Ecuador, at least.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Guantanamo

[Tribesman]

Guantanamo
Gitmo is a terrible stain on America(and the nations which helped), but comparing it to Stalins reign of terror is a ridiculous stretch.

[HundertzehnGustav]

true dat.
a stain it remains.
which is my point.
they do not do it on a large scale.
but they still ******* your life if they want to.
for no appearent reason at all but mere suspicion.
with no end in sight, not even an accusation.

The world sees that.
the Crap output by the Elected Rulers of the US is rising.

if it were the general average Joe ruling the US Country, i believe it would be different. Power to the people and all that.

yet they warn Putin that he aint playing fair.
Vodafone???

[Tribesman]

if it were the general average Joe ruling the US Country, i believe it would be different. Power to the people and all that.

The problem with that idea is that the general average Joe, being a human, tends to be just as big a dickhead as the humans already in office

[HundertzehnGustav]

Okay.
then remove Average Joe Dickhead from the equation.
...:timeout: (everything comes to a screeching halt)
stopped just short of saying: kill all americans.

And no, it aint better in other places.

American dickhead warning russian dickhead to not play dickhead or slse they be even less friends than they are now.

Both of em are dirty as hell.
and are fighting over some guy that has the vision to expose their dirt to the world to see, and react to.

Russian? American?
Both sides are ridiculous.
Both sides are suppressing States.

It is a disgusting situation.

[Jimbuna]

Obama has announced there will be no bartering for his return and he will be dealt with through 'routine legal channels'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23084166

[HundertzehnGustav]

...when i see it.
after all, he poked the watchdog...
:)

for now, he having vodka and Kaviar, most likely.
and i sense he will be there for a some time...
if the Russians do not throw him out?

[Jimbuna]

...when i see it.
after all, he poked the watchdog...
:)

for now, he having vodka and Kaviar, most likely.
and i sense he will be there for a some time...
if the Russians do not throw him out?

Just don't send him to London to stay with Assange :o

[Hottentot]

Guantanamo

Hitler. I win.


Gitmo is a terrible stain on America(and the nations which helped), but comparing it to Stalins reign of terror is a ridiculous stretch.

Aye that. We'll get back to this subject once Obama's personal insistence on the country's economic direction has caused the whole Houston's metropolitan area to starve to death, and the people of Houston have been prevented by a new law from moving away from the city under the threat of being sent to Guantanamo for not complying.

Among other things.

[Mr Quatro]

Guantanamo

I thought subsim had a three word minimum, but I guess not ...

It's actually listed as United States Naval Station Guantanamo Bay and why would anyone agree with President Obama about it's dismissal is beyond my understanding: http://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrse/installations/ns_guantanamo_bay.html



back to Snowden's misdeeds :yep:

[Tribesman]

I thought subsim had a three word minimum, but I guess not ...

Was there?

[HundertzehnGustav]

...back to Obama's/NSA/Britain's misdeeds :yep:

amd how the POTUS and his crew is loudmouthing against the russians.:D

[Mr Quatro]

amd how the POTUS and his crew is loudmouthing against the russians.:D

Seeing how Mr Putin has already conceded that the International airport in Moscow is not Russian territory and that Snowden is free to leave on any airline ...

then we should send in a half dozen goodie goodie two shoes (seal team members in civilian clothes without weapons) to surround him and help him decide which airliner to take.

then wait to see who they arrest ... :know:

[Oberon]

Was there?

rgr that :salute:

[HundertzehnGustav]

didnt he say the transit area is not russia?
and the theoretical limit to stay is 24 hours.

oh they will get arrested. not clubbed, but still be in trouble.
imagine a handsful of speznaz Fellows at Washington Dulles.
and if them seals do not get arrested, they themselves will be surrounded by a detachment of russians.

would be fun to watch.
you crush him, we crush you, whatcha gonna do.

:D

[Ducimus]

It's actually listed as United States Naval Station Guantanamo Bay and why would anyone agree with President Obama about it's dismissal is beyond my understanding


back to Snowden's misdeeds :yep:

Seeing how Mr Putin has already conceded that the International airport in Moscow is not Russian territory and that Snowden is free to leave on any airline ...

then we should send in a half dozen goodie goodie two shoes (seal team members in civilian clothes without weapons) to surround him and help him decide which airliner to take.

then wait to see who they arrest ... :know:


Judging by your focus purely on crucifying snowden, and complete lack of interest in anything else I think your off into your own world. A world where the government is always on the side of right, can do no wrong, can be trusted implicitly, and the Constitution is nothing more then an old piece of paper to be disregarded when it becomes inconvenient.

[Mittelwaechter]

AlJazeera News: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201362713534987861.html

"What's more, Ecuador offers the United States economic aid of $23 million annually, similar to what we received with the trade benefits, with the intention of providing education about human rights," Alvarado added.

:har:

[Mr Quatro]

Judging by your focus purely on crucifying snowden, and complete lack of interest in anything else I think your off into your own world. A world where the government is always on the side of right, can do no wrong, can be trusted implicitly, and the Constitution is nothing more then an old piece of paper to be disregarded when it becomes inconvenient.

Come, come now ... you take me and life too seriously.

I forgot to put a smiley or two ... :yep:

lets find something to agree on like your sig about coffee ... I like that :)

But it is hard to believe that wiki leaks has more money than uncle sam ...

"Money talks ... Snowden walks" :woot:

[HundertzehnGustav]

AlJazeera News: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201362713534987861.html

"What's more, Ecuador offers the United States economic aid of $23 million annually, similar to what we received with the trade benefits, with the intention of providing education about human rights," Alvarado added.

:har:

made my morning!
:har:

OMG! slap in da face... I find that very refreshing!

[Mittelwaechter]

Next impact?

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19174350-ex-pentagon-general-target-of-leak-investigation-sources-say?lite (http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19174350-ex-pentagon-general-target-of-leak-investigation-sources-say?lite)

Too many honest people out of control.



No censorship on our side?

http://www.montereyherald.com/local/ci_23554739/restricted-web-access-guardian-is-army-wide-officials

Newspeak: network hygiene - !

[HundertzehnGustav]

and not too dum people either.
Good to see.
Hope their motives are pure.

[Mittelwaechter]

That's whack!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/nsa-director-tells-staff-to-remain-focused/2013/06/27/41252d74-df5c-11e2-b2d4-ea6d8f477a01_story.html

Alexander said that the staffers “embody the true meaning of noble intent through your national service.” He cited a 1962 speech on “duty, honor and country” by Gen. Douglas MacArthur. Quoting MacArthur, Alexander said the words “teach us ‘not to substitute words for action; not to seek the path of comfort, but to face the stress and spur of difficulty and challenge; to learn to stand up in the storm.’ You have done all that and more.”

Continue to support the evil system, it tells you it's a noble job.

"Don't substitute words for action."
Right, Sir! Don't tell to follow the law and do the opposite.


We judge 'em by their evil deeds, but we want to be judged by our noble intentions.

[Wolferz]

The base also supports the Department of Homeland Security in U.S. migrant operations to help care for displaced migrants from the surrounding area, effectively helping control the flow of illegal immigrants into the United States.
WOT!???
Shouldn't that say; "....helping to stem the flow of illegal immigrants into the United States?"

And what the heck is a displaced migrant?

It appears that Mr. Snowden has only exposed the tip of a proverbial iceberg.:nope:

What was that campaign promise that Obama made in his first election run?

Oh, yeah... I will close Gitmo.
Evidently the puppet masters had other plans.

[Tribesman]

And what the heck is a displaced migrant?

Would that be a refugee seeking asylum in the land of the free?

[CaptainHaplo]

From the Washington Post article....

With emphasis in italics and bold face, he added: “We need you to focus on our primary mission of defending our nation and our allies.”

Focus on doing the stuff that is legal - and pretend you weren't really spying on anyone domestically in violation of the law.

[Mittelwaechter]

No one is illegal.


Another direct hit:

http://gawker.com/convicted-pedophile-priest-claims-the-vatican-had-a-ren-610641646

[AVGWarhawk]

No one is illegal.


Another direct hit:

http://gawker.com/convicted-pedophile-priest-claims-the-vatican-had-a-ren-610641646

What does this link have to do with the thread?

[Mittelwaechter]

The US warns of Snowden consequences.

Do we see more and more of these consequences?

Just in another way they tried to threaten.

Will we see more and more people blow the whistle? Uncover the secret dealings and wheelings?
People with a subtile bad conscience, who doubt the legality of their orders, their tasks and their daily routines?

It seems so.

[August]

Snowden better not cross any red lines I tell you whut...

[Tribesman]

Snowden better not cross any red lines I tell you whut...
Ah yes, the red lines. The proof that the Syrian regime had used chemical weapons twice.
The proof that stated two individuals showed signs of exposure, but also stated that there was no evidence of how, when and by who that exposure occurred.

[Sailor Steve]

What does this link have to do with the thread?
A very good question. What exactly does a claim concering Vatican sex rings have to do with the US spying on its citizens?

[Platapus]

Focus on doing the stuff that is legal - and pretend you weren't really spying on anyone domestically in violation of the law.

Has it been demonstrated that what the NSA did was in violation of the law?

[Sailor Steve]

Has it been demonstrated that what the NSA did was in violation of the law?
How do you collect volumes of random information without showing probable cause? How does a judge grant a warrant to search the records of countless thousands of people? Probable Cause requires a good reason to suspect someone of a crime. How do you suspect thousands of random citizens?

I would say the Fourth Amendment strictly prohibits this kind of activity.

[Tribesman]

Has it been demonstrated that what the NSA did was in violation of the law?
Well when they did it a decade ago they said it was done by mistake as they were not allowed to do it.
When they were doing it for two years after they were specificly ordered not to they said it was a technical glitch.

[Catfish]

Has it been demonstrated that what the NSA did was in violation of the law?

Depends on interpretation, which is why laws and amendments are pretty useless (what can be done, will be done):

" .... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The constitutional framers did not consider the possibility of stored digital content or electronic communications when they wrote these words. When electronic communications first became widespread early in the 20th century, law enforcement agencies began to use wiretapping in their investigations without obtaining the warrants required for a physical search. The resulting convictions led to to court appeals before the US Congress considered the question of electronic privacy. Thus it fell to the courts to interpret the intent of the framers in determining if warrantless eavesdropping and wiretapping are covered by the Fourth Amendment. The key question is whether wiretapping constitutes a form of "search and seizure". ..."


But it is not only about 'home rule', the NSA b.t.w. wiretapped all foreign cables as well without informing its allies, thus also violating international treaties.
The GCHQ certainly did the same, which is why the current climate between Europe and England also is coming to a state of freeze.

The drone war is also violating international treaties, apart from killing US citizens and bystanders without a trial. Because the killings are ordered without even knowing the person, it is based on 'metadata', like just someone being 'suspicious'.
Not that the US has cared for anything in that regard since the corean war, and those 'small interventions' in Middle and South America.

"We never knew which friends we had", until Manning and Snowden :03:

[WernherVonTrapp]

A very good question. What exactly does a claim concering Vatican sex rings have to do with the US spying on its citizens?
They're handing out rings at the Vatican?:-?

[Ducimus]

Depends on interpretation, which is why laws and amendments are pretty useless (what can be done, will be done):

" .... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The constitutional framers did not consider the possibility of stored digital content or electronic communications when they wrote these words.

Digital content and electronic communications are "papers, and effects". I'm not even going to say, "I would argue", no, i'm saying, "They ARE" papers and effects. Words like, "File", and "Document", used commonly in this computer age of ours, were originally used in context of "papers". Furthermore, one's "effects" are personal items, or things that are personal in nature.

The media being used may have changed, but the items being discussed are the same.

[mookiemookie]

I can't say I'm the biggest Ron Paul fan, but I certainly agree with him here.

"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."

[Sailor Steve]

Aye, that's a good one. :rock:

[Skybird]

It's not just counter-terrorism surveillance that by inbuilt feature assumes everybody guilty as long as not proven innocent. German media report that the NSA has infiltrated in very big style foreign offices of all EU states in America by installing bugs, hacking telephone networks and computer networks, and trying to overhear as much as is being told behind locked doors in diplomatic meetings. Counter terrorism has nothing to do with it. What the NSA does is simply total and unlimited espionage and spying on proclaimed "allied friends". German media says they also managed to infiltrate diplomatic and government offices of EU states not only in America, but in their European home nations as well. Brussel EU headquarters are overheard and monitored on every level of computer and telephone communication.

It's all about security, and counter terrorism. Yeah, sure.

[Jimbuna]

It's not just counter-terrorism surveillance that by inbuilt feature assumes everybody guilty as long as not proven innocent. German media report that the NSA has infiltrated in very big style foreign offices of all EU states in America by installing bugs, hacking telephone networks and computer networks, and trying to overhear as much as is being told behind locked doors in diplomatic meetings. Counter terrorism has nothing to do with it. What the NSA does is simply total and unlimited espionage and spying on proclaimed "allied friends". German media says they also managed to infiltrate diplomatic and government offices of EU states not only in America, but in their European home nations as well. Brussel EU headquarters are overheard and monitored on every level of computer and telephone communication.

It's all about security, and counter terrorism. Yeah, sure.

If the above is true then I'd certainly consider that to be most worrying :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Would it really be that big a surprise? Politics knows neither morals nor friends. That is just two words that are swung like wands to manipulate the sentiments of the crowds.

[Jimbuna]

Eavesdropping, spying (call it what you will) on potential adversaries is one thing but doing so on long standing allies is something totally different.

[Mittelwaechter]

It's all about control.

One group of people controls another group of people - for their own advantage.

This may be an economical, psychological, military, security or whatever advantage.
Including the advantage of an easy living for a few in contrast to the servitude of the majority.

Any accumulation of property leads to more influence, more power, more control.
More money - more power - more control over who will have more money, more power and more control.

This works with intelligence too:
the accumulation of the property "knowledge" or "information" results in more power and more control.

If I am able to control you, your day, your perception, your motivation you are slave to my mind.

[mapuc]

This is a very interesting discussion you have and it's with interest I follow it.

Some of you say he's a spy and guilty according to the law

Some of you call him a patriot and a hero

But Skybird is the person who's the one that has said the most interesting and it's true

His(Snowden) action has been in vain! Sad to say

Do you really thing, that they(NSA, CIA a.s.o) are going to stop now that they have been revealed?

Markus

[HundertzehnGustav]

certainly as an enemy to their power.
or the beginning of a possibly potential group of people removing said power.

you folks really need to wake up...

[HundertzehnGustav]

This is a very interesting discussion you have and it's with interest I follow it.

Some of you say he's a spy and guilty according to the law

Some of you call him a patriot and a hero

But Skybird is the person who's the one that has said the most interesting and it's true

His(Snowden) action has been in vain! Sad to say

Do you really thing, that they(NSA, CIA a.s.o) are going to stop now that they have been revealed?

Markus

Not until some physical actiion has been taken.

The Spies are not only controlling the NSA and similar agencies.
they also control the
-Police Top levels (we will confront you in the streets)
-Armed Forces top levels (we will bolster the Police by sending the national guard) (we will hunt you down worldwide by air, sea, land, anytime, anyplace)
-Government levels top to very bottom (we will stricten rules and give less handouts)
-Economic top levels (we will stricten working rules, prices, ship jobs overseas, where we find brainwashed slaves)


Who is still NOT under the control of the Governemnt?

Average Joe.
As has been said, that average, working class Joe...
HE is the one to take action.
And no, voting... or even Voting with your wallet is not enough.

American Spring! Syria! Turkey! Greece! Italy! they are your examples to follow.
okay maybe not Italy... they plan on bringing back that teenage f......nanana Berlusconi.

And... AND the Guillautine. with CNN and Fox and whoever... holding the camera right on it.
So yes... France shall be your example too. as much as some of yall might hate to hear that.

[Platapus]

Average Joe.
As has been said, that average, working class Joe...
HE is the one to take action.
And no, voting... or even Voting with your wallet is not enough.



What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

[Skybird]

Germany is under Constant attack bei foreign Intel services . It is about economic espionage . The Chinese launch the most attacks and infiltrations . But second, before the Russians, are the Americans.

You Brits read a lot into this illusion of yours, Special relations with the Us and all that, but you are just getting used, for the Us it is opportunistic to leave you in that state of illusionS . But in the end, You are just the American beachhead inside the EU, that is why they want you to stay in it.This, and a performing agent in NATO. Master rules . Poodle follows.

l repeat, between states, there exists neither friendship nor morals .

[HundertzehnGustav]

What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

here, take this tar.
take thease feathers. and over there is a shed full of metal bars.

[mapuc]

What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

When I read it, my first thought was this:

Start an organization get lots of members make it political, when enough support start running for presidency, when elected do the change that I want to change.

I'm raised with the believe in democracy and there power of it.

Markus

[HundertzehnGustav]

the system told you it works.
you see it does not work
you try to rebuild said system using what the defective system taught you in the first place.

not innovative, not direct enough.


edit...
and the question was:
what action "OTHER THAN VOTING"
to run fgor prez... you still need some sort of voting system, hance this is outside of the acceptes possible answers.

[Skybird]

And there you are at the root of the problem. You got raised with a belief. Well nothing hinders you to grow beyond that! To believe into electing somebody in the next votings, not only get us all stuck, but drive us deeper and deeper into the mess. Doesn't matter whom one votes for. And to call for changes just inside and by the voting mechanism guarantees only "Kadavergehorsam" meant to not put the situation and trend -deeper into the mess, that is - into question.

We democratically elect us all into bancruptcy, ruin and ultimately: slavery in a system that by then will be anything but free and democratic, but unfree, and totalitarian. The opposite of democracy is freedom.

[mapuc]

And there you are at the root of the problem. You got raised with a belief. Well nothing hinders you to grow beyond that! To believe into electing somebody in the next votings, not only get us all stuck, but drive us deeper and deeper into the mess. Doesn't matter whom one votes for. And to call for changes just inside and by the voting mechanism guarantees only "Kadavergehorsam" meant to not put the situation and trend -deeper into the mess, that is - into question.

We democratically elect us all into bancruptcy, ruin and ultimately: slavery in a system that by then will be anything but free and democratic, but unfree, and totalitarian. The opposite of democracy is freedom.

That's the ONLY way you can make the changes without making some kind of revolution. The democracy way.

If you ain't pleased with your politics, then you have several options

Markus

[Platapus]

the system told you it works.
you see it does not work


I can only speak for myself, but the system seems to be working pretty well. Not perfect, but perfection is a fantasy. We have our ebbs and flows and we often don't correct problems until they become huge.

But on the whole, I kinda like the US system. It has been good to me and my family for a long time. Do I have my complaints and dissatisfaction? Sure do. Many of them. But I still think it is a good, but imperfect system, run by good, but imperfect people trying to do a good, but imperfect job in a lousy but imperfect world. :)

I hope that in my small way, I am making my country a tiny bit more better and a tiny bit less worse than it is.

I think the US would be a vastly different country if our system "did not work" at all. :yep:

[HundertzehnGustav]

...because Democracy means voting for someone else to make decisions and changes for you.

-men must be governed! Often not wisely, but nevertheless they must be governed...

A)
NEVER wisely. ALWAYS with the one you gave power to, wanting more money and power. Got that finally?

B)
...he who gives away his power to get freedom deserves neither power nor freedom. - me.


Is there anybody in here willing and or able to think outside indoctinated propaganda and democracy being the most humane forms of governance?
anyone...? besides sky and a rare handsful?

[HundertzehnGustav]

I can only speak for myself, but the system seems to be working pretty well. Not perfect, but perfection is a fantasy. We have our ebbs and flows and we often don't correct problems until they become huge.

But on the whole, I kinda like the US system. It has been good to me and my family for a long time. Do I have my complaints and dissatisfaction? Sure do. Many of them. But I still think it is a good, but imperfect system, run by good, but imperfect people trying to do a good, but imperfect job in a lousy but imperfect world. :)

I hope that in my small way, I am making my country a tiny bit more better and a tiny bit less worse than it is.

I think the US would be a vastly different country if our system "did not work" at all. :yep:


I see what you mean, and i agree. Your Horizon is "this big", and whithin your radius of action, you try, and achieve, doing good things.
The system is good for you.

The question i would like you to ask is not if the system is good for you... but if is is good for the world.

Your neighbors are getting pissed by your system wiretapping them, that is what i want you to understand at this point.

so what are you doing to stop your agencies having access, and also sifting through our mails, our network traffic, our companies data transfers and cloud storages our VOIP communications?

Waht are you doing to stop them doing this to YOU and YOUR family?

This is not imprefection.
This is a global offense - if you understand the magnitude of the events.

[Mittelwaechter]

If voting could change anything, it would be illegal. Kurt Tucholsky

Our apparent democracy is kept up to make the people believe, they participate - or even rule - the decisions made by politicans.
Politicians can be replaced anytime without disturbing the system of rule. They are puppets on the strings of their stringholders. Holders of shares, of large bank accounts, holders of key economies, holders of large property, holders of influence on the puppets, of control over their points of view, their perception and their thinking.

The plantation owner told his slaves they are free now and they can elect some of their kind, some foremen to decide over the general conditions at the plantation.
Well, the foremen still get their orders at the dinners with the plantation owner. For their cooperation they will be supported for a re-election with money and controlled media.
If they don't behave well, the controlled media will burn them alive - in full public.
The plantation owner creates and collects information on the foremen, to be used by his media if necessary. And he collects information on his slaves, to rule them accordingly.
Guess what happens, if the plantation owner stands alone against 110 slaves following a common intersest. A whip to keep them under control is not enough.
Smart is it, to let them vote 10 of their own, easy to be kept under control of the plantation owner. He gives these 10 a little whip and let them do the job.
If one of them starts to revolt, he will be replaced. He will be discredited by the media - constantly named to be free and independant, but in reality under control of the plantation owner.
A motivated new little whip swinger is only one day away.

Voting is not for changing anything. Voting means you are asked to support the system. That's the only purpose - at least today.
It may have been diffenrent with smaller democracies, with personal responsability, direct contact between representative and voter and with the fear of consequences in the case of abuse of power.

Our politicians try to stay away from the people. They have a ban mile installed. They stay in contact with the lobbyists and learn their point of view.
To discuss about politicians is pointless, because they are not the ones who decide the important decisions. They follow orders.
Who pays for the music decides the songs to play.


And the free slaves support this system, because there is a repititive media voice whispering constantly for decades: this is the best of all systems! You are free! The others want to destroy your system! Fight them! Our plantation is the good one! You are special! Don't listen to other voices! They lie! They want to ensnare you! They think you are stupid! But you are special! You are free! Support the system! You are the good one! Look at the turd in the flowers of the other systems! They are bad! We are the good ones! You are special! You are free! You have a choice! Your system is special! Your voice is special! Fight the other voices! They want to enslave you! But you are free! You are special! This is the best of all systems. You are the good one! Support the system! Vote for the system! You are free to vote any foreman! You are free! This is the best system! Ask your fathers! You are special! Support the system! Support the troops! They fight for you! You are the system! The system is the best! Fight for it! Tell it to your kids! You are free!


Some say they prosper under this system. True! But only because thousands suffer.

[Ducimus]

What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

I'll just mention this here:
"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."
http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/0/1/4/2/4/9/4-boxes-95813812740.png

For what it's worth, I think were still at the ballot and Jury boxes. Though the idea that it may come down to the ammo box at some point in the future no longer strikes me as impossible or inconceivable. Improbable perhaps, but not impossible.

I can only speak for myself, but the system seems to be working pretty well. Not perfect, but perfection is a fantasy. We have our ebbs and flows and we often don't correct problems until they become huge.


Most of the time yeah it works, and yeah perfection is a fantasy. However, if you examine the larger picture, and look at the cumulative sum of all the events from the last eight months; the conclusion the government has gotten way out of hand is inescapable. Remember, we the people own this government. Not the other way around. They are supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We are citizens, not subjects, they are supposed to answer to us. From what i can tell, they don't really seem to think so, and that is a problem.

[Skybird]

That's the ONLY way you can make the changes
Reality does not catch up with expectation there.


If you ain't pleased with your politics, then you have several options

None within the rules of the system, with the system being the problem. That's why you are demanded to vote - to make sure the snowballing show goes on. The show is what counts. The name of this year's winner is not really of any interest at all. He will not change the game. If he would, he never would have climbed the nomination and power hierarchy of the game system.

Nobody is innocent, all are guilty, the leading and those being led alike. The first make promises to come to power and then rape the nation's economic fundament, the others demand those promises and mentally move the bill they nevertheless need to pay into a far away distant future, outside the span of their lives. But they all are important in being voters. In the end all parties use stolen tax money not to feed the poor, but to make more people poor and keep them in dependence from the parties - so that they vote for them to get financial gifts that earlier got and in the future will get stolen from them again.

From nothing comes nothing, wealth you want to spend must be produced before, there ios no way to spend your way out of debts, and never ever has both nature's and economy's realities agreed to compromise themselves on behalf of political belief, wishful thinking and ideological propaganda. Especially Europeans, but Americans as well have forgotten this, and will need to relearn that. the lesson will be harsh and merciless, nevertheless it will taught itself the one way or the other way. There is no escape from reality, no matter what well-meaning intention is used as an excuse for the attempt.

[mapuc]

Reality does not catch up with expectation there.


None within the rules of the system, with the system being the problem. That's why you are demanded to vote - to make sure the snowballing show goes on. The show is what counts. The name of this year's winner is not really of any interest at all. He will not change the game. If he would, he never would have climbed the nomination and power hierarchy of the game system.

Nobody is innocent, all are guilty, the leading and those being led alike. The first make promises to come to power and then rape the nation's economic fundament, the others demand those promises and mentally move the bill they nevertheless need to pay into a far away distant future, outside the span of their lives. But they all are important in being voters. In the end all parties use stolen tax money not to feed the poor, but to make more people poor and keep them in dependence from the parties - so that they vote for them to get financial gifts that earlier got and in the future will get stolen from them again.

From nothing comes nothing, wealth you want to spend must be produced before, there ios no way to spend your way out of debts, and never ever has both nature's and economy's realities agreed to compromise themselves on behalf of political belief, wishful thinking and ideological propaganda. Especially Europeans, but Americans as well have forgotten this, and will need to relearn that. the lesson will be harsh and merciless, nevertheless it will taught itself the one way or the other way. There is no escape from reality, no matter what well-meaning intention is used as an excuse for the attempt.

I think you may have misunderstood me on several cases.

I'm NOT saying that you should vote on some other person.
I'm saying that YOU self should create your own party and run for presidency or to become prime minister or what's it called in Germany.

General:

Have just seen TV2NEWS(a danish news channel) and there I heard about this surveillance in EU.

I wonder how the relation between EU and USA will be if it is true

I guess it will be a very hot summer then.

Markus

[mapuc]

Here's another thing that I have read in this thread

I have nothing to hide, so I'm not afraid of this surveillance

That made me remember a friend saying the same thing to me

This is what I said to him

Very well, then you would not have any thing, against what I'm going to do next week in your flat.

What are you going to do? he said

I'm going to do the following things

1. Install camera in every room and in some of them more than 1.
2. Install microphones in every room and in some them more than 1.
3. Install microphones in your home phone and in every cell phone you have.
4. Install a ghost program in every computer you have
5. Install a program in every TV, radio and recorder you may have.

When I have said these things, he looked at me as I was crazy.

Said to him. You said that you have nothing to hide, so.....

Markus

[HundertzehnGustav]

and next time you are discussing the subject of corn flakes at breakfast time, you decide to suggest another brand.
... a brand you happen to own, a fact he does not know.

and when you know what Lasagne he eats, you will , in a subtle way steer a discussion onto the horse meat scandal...
and suggest he try this new vegan lasagne your Wife served you last week and everyone liked.
...whose production process you supervise, a fact he does not know.

...car
...music
...book
...school
...party
...science/education
...religion/spirituality


because you are the NSA, the police, the army, the news, the big dollar business and a dozen other entities.

nice suggestion!

[TorpX]

I'll just mention this here:
"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."
http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/0/1/4/2/4/9/4-boxes-95813812740.png

They are supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We are citizens, not subjects, they are supposed to answer to us.... From what i can tell, they don't really seem to think so, and that is a problem.

I like this. :up:

Personally, I think the second box has been shown to have failed, and people are starting to think of the third. If things don't get better in a big way, we could be looking at the cartridge box in less than 20 yrs.

Honestly, I can see people wishing for a military dictatorship in the not so distant future. POTUS, SCOTUS, and COTUS have all shown themselves to be fundamentally corrupt. If only one was corrupt, the other two could clean it up, but when all three are corrupt, how can anyone expect things to get better on their own?

[Nicolas]

I'm following this, i have read that more information is going to be published, that they have the capacity to store more than 1 "billion"? phone calls a day and listen if necessary..
http://rt.com/

[CaptainHaplo]

1 billion calls a day. That is surprising why?

[Catfish]

1 billion calls a day. That is surprising why?

I found it mildly surprising that the NSA listens to 500 Million connections in Germany:
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html

From a confidential classification, Germany is regarded as an attack target.
Most of the eavesdroppiung serves industrial espionage though, so nothing to worry about.
:hmm2:

[mapuc]

and next time you are discussing the subject of corn flakes at breakfast time, you decide to suggest another brand.
... a brand you happen to own, a fact he does not know.

and when you know what Lasagne he eats, you will , in a subtle way steer a discussion onto the horse meat scandal...
and suggest he try this new vegan lasagne your Wife served you last week and everyone liked.
...whose production process you supervise, a fact he does not know.

...car
...music
...book
...school
...party
...science/education
...religion/spirituality


because you are the NSA, the police, the army, the news, the big dollar business and a dozen other entities.

nice suggestion!

It was not at the breakfast we had this discussion. It was in the evening. I had a friend visiting me and we were watching the swedish news (Rapport) they had an issue about the huge increase of surveillance camera in the public area.

And right after this issue, I said that all those cameras haven't made the crime go down. He didn't agree on that, there after we had a discussion and it was then, he said that he had nothing to hide so he was not afraid of all these surveillance around us.

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

If we have something to hide is not under our control.

In a few months it may be a problem to have been surfing on AlJazeera.
You want to have a job at your local administration?
Sorry - your profile doesn't fit, Sir.

Your dream job with Greenpeace?
And you are posting at SubSim?
Sorry, but we prefer pacifists.

You want to fly to Equador for holidays?
Sorry - you are on our no-fly list, Sir.
Why? Sorry I can't tell you. Maybe you supported Mr Snowden somewhere?

Sorry Sir, we have a record of your telephone call with Mr Camerone, the famous drug dealer.
You never had such a phone call? Can you prove it, Sir?

[Skybird]

"All for the glory of Rome!" :yeah:


Most of the eavesdroppiung serves industrial espionage though, so nothing to worry about.

Costs us billions and billions. Costs us jobs. Costs us social stability. Costs us manouvering space in already marked negotiations.

Its not an befriended nation behaving like this, but a hostile nation- one has to voice it that clearly.

Also irritating, to put it mildly, is that Americans only worry if they are the ones who get spied on by their government, or get targetted by foreign intel - for their precious American laws should protect them form that. But they have apparently little problem with treating claimed "friends" as "friends of second and third class only.

But I also see it from this perspective: Europe allows it, Europe invites it by remaining weak and helpless and passive, and European leaders did not complain as long as the dirty truth was kept hidden under the carpet.

Or does anyone seriously think for even just one second that European leaders did not know all this since years already...?

And why is it that the focus is on the Americans only? By the last days' reports it seems that the British spying efforts even exceed those of the Americans at least as far as Germany is targetted. Must be to not additionally fuel any British-continental rifts within the precious EU union of friends and big happy family.

[Catfish]

Hey calm down !

For the NSA Germany is an 'attack target', but at least we are only in the third rank of befriended nations.
I wonder which treatment the friends get :rotfl2:

[Skybird]

Third rank in another category as well: only Iran and Pakistan get more surveillance treatment by the NSA than Germany does. While Merkel apparently got bugged as well. that makes us probably the top number one goal for the NSA regarding economic espionage, since even when thinking bad I cannot imagine that there is so much terror threat coming from Germany. Only the Chinese spy more on Germany businesses than the Americans.

But they want to get their free trade zone nevertheless - with the major profiteer from this being the US, most of the EU states not being affected that much by it in net total - and Germany suffering clear and high negative consequences from it.

Matching this is the news from last days that Irish bankers were mocking and laughing about the German financial aid to the EU and to Ireland recently, and that they Germans are to be eternally thanked for for being such idiots.

Mit uns Deutschen kann man's ja machen, Catfish, wir sind uns wirklich für nix zu dumm, gelle? In a way, I begrudge it to us. Lacking education is one thing - but stupidity deserves to get exploited.

I think that the way the US are treating Europe, also indicates something else, which could be read from many earlier diplomatic signals over the past couple of years: that is that the EU is not winning but loosing in relevance, that Europe is not important enough anymore for the US to be taken serious, and that there is little the US has seriously to fear from the EU and its impotence, no matter how loud European operetta stars sing in the EU institutions. It is a historic fact that we are becoming more and more marginal to world affairs, that simple. That's the wheel of time turning, the up and now the down of history. We are not being taken serious in the Arab world as well. And also not in China and the Far East - they know that they already have surpassed us. And Russia, I think Russia is simply shaking its head when looking at us.

[Jimbuna]

Honestly Sky, I know you truly believe what you post but do you seriously think everything is actually as bad as you portray it?

Spying is carried out by most countries surely, the only difference being to whom and to what extent.

Germany bailing out European partners was a German decision built around I suspect the German government wanting to be the major player on the European circuit....getting a sense of deja vu yet?

I believe Germany are taken seriously, certainly as much as the UK but it can help to use muscles of a different nature than financial when asked by a friend in need from time to time.

[Skybird]

Honestly Sky, I know you truly believe what you post but do you seriously think everything is actually as bad as you portray it?

Spying is carried out by most countries surely, the only difference being to whom and to what extent.

Well, America traditionally sees itself as being on a mission to Americanise the world with American goings and virtues, and it even claims that quite openly, with according references hinting out both the demand to be the global dominating player, and others needing to follow American examples. The spying affair now is anything but about security, obviously, and goes far beyond fighting terrorism, but is about bugging governments and leaders as well as spying on business companies and extracting their knowledge and to learn about their negotiation plans in any sort of mutual economic talkings and negotiations. To know what the other company plans and intends to do when for example offering a bid for something, obviously is an advantage that can win your own side millions and billions, and if you think it to the end, does damage to the other both in fiscal and social dimension and hurts the other's national community (because it pays the price for the theft by loosing incomes and being unable to make the hoped-for returns for its own investments in development). You shall not oversee that in Brussel there are seated several times as many American lobbyists than there are EU officials, members of parliament, decision makers. Not just business lobbyists - American business lobbyists. Only in Washington itself things are said to be even worse.

Part of the American interest in Germany can be explained due to the fact that Germany is the European centre for internet traffic from and to Europe, as such a Nexus it necessarily receives more attention than other nations. But you cannot explain why offices of the EU or the cellphone by chancellor Merkel get bugged and monitored. I also have a principle problem with the reversing of this fundamental pillar of our Western law system: that the suspect is assumed innocent as long as not proven guilty. The Americans behave exactly the other way around, and they did that since 9/11, their new regulations for airline passengers and new arrivers in the US, the need to reveal more private information about yourself than the police would ask of you if you were arrested as a suspect in criminal case. Totalitarian data control and data collection - yes, Jim, I have a big problem with that, because I see the immense, the monumental opportunity for abuse here. Not just because I have a problem with democratic states in principle, as recently explained in long and twisted threads, but because of the American egoist business interest as well. These data collections will get used one way or the other, will attract criminal energy, will raise demands to use them for business interests, and there is no system of checks and balances in our understanding in the US that monitors what is being done with these data. They just get stored, often for legally 15 or 30 years or without limits, and where the Americans agreed to store them for shorter time in the past they nevertheless refused any possibility to indeed control that. Many people just are satisfied with saying that a law says this or that, a treaty, and that that is to be trusted, point. I can only laugh about that amount of naivety. Governments make laws as they need them, and where it is opportune for them and they see the chance of getting away with it, they even break laws - their own laws. In that, America is not any different than Europe. They just do what they want as if all others were people of second (non-American) class only, and that pisses me big time indeed. Have the past 20 years or so not proven time and again that this is not the trustworthy knight in shiny armor that it claims it is? I will trust the US regarding its actions that base on egoist power and economic intere3st. I do not trust it one bit on basis of its holy claims of what it was intended to be like as a nation, because these ideals have all been betrayed and eroded the same way like our own constitution. In this, America is not one bit better than european countries.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Data is power. total data is total power.

Usually it is us Germans being seen as the preototypepf the obedient vassal to the "Obrigkeitsstaat", being humble and happily subordinate and have a strong taste for putting our trust in the state, in uniforms, titles and Führers , and that is a reputation Germans have had since long before Hitler, it goes back to Prussia, if not earlier. But that cliche is no longer valid, I would say, for in this forum so often people from America have expressed such an uncritical, undistanced, naive, blindly trusting attitude towards the system they live in, just because something idealistic gets quoted from some ancient historic paperwork. These people would have made perfect vassals to the German Obrigkeitsstaat in earlier parts of our history, really.

The state is not to be trusted. Neither should foreigners trust a foreign state, nor should the citizens of that state trust it. State is bureaucracy, is political actors, is political parties and plenty of private lobbyists bypassing anything the citizens try to practice in checks and balances, opinion-givings and elections. You do not put your trust into such a dangerous entity that demonstrates time and again to have a strong interest in betraying even its own people, not to mention everybody else. You'd be crazy if you do. It is against the own interest of the actors to act honestly and trustworthy, I have explained the Why repeatedly in past weeks.

Germany bailing out European partners was a German decision built around I suspect the German government wanting to be the major player on the European circuit....getting a sense of deja vu yet?
That is what you non-German foreigners simply always fail to correctly understand: you have no clue of this twisted thing that post-war German mentality is. Most Germans fear being a leader and dominant player in europe more than the plague, and the majority of the political canon beats the same drum. As a matter of fact we are also expected by other people to pay, but the smallest hesitation of ours to do so, the smallest remark on that the receiving side also has moral obligations instead of taking German payments for granted gets immediately turned against us and called "German dominance-seeking". That is hilarious, and very obviously opportunistic. And Britain - it surely wants Germany to bail, out half of Europe, yes, and not caring for money inflation anymore - because the British finance industry desperately depends on loose money policies.


I believe Germany are taken seriously, certainly as much as the UK but it can help to use muscles of a different nature than financial when asked by a friend in need from time to time.
Like for example in the gulf war? Your American buddies drilled a ring through your nose and led you through the arena by it. And you got lied to and betrayed just like anyone else. The "special relation" is a hollow thing, it serves the purpose of giving the Americans what they want from you, with you not getting back something on equal terms. They fool you, and you allow to get fooled, hoping you get a tanned skin by an imagined sun the same way as if your place in the sun were for real. But the sweet sweet sound of pathetic speeches and rhetorics, this boost one gets from wallowing in sentimental emotions - its so GREAT to have a special relation with Rome, some of Rome's shine is dripping onto you that way, doesn't it? By the end of the day, much was ventured by you, but little was gained, and your skin still is as pale as before.

[u crank]

Try not to be too offended or surprised.

Public outcry has emerged over British and American monitoring of global communications. But the German government has so far been reserved in its criticism, partly because the country receives data from such monitoring.

German spies have also been sniffing around online - and on a large scale, not just in cases of concrete suspicion. The German Federal Intelligence Service (BND) is legally allowed to rifle through up to 20 percent of the communication between Germany and other countries, and monitor certain Internet search terms.

http://www.dw.de/germany-also-profits-from-us-british-spying/a-16916837

[Skybird]

Try not to be too offended or surprised.
http://www.dw.de/germany-also-profits-from-us-british-spying/a-16916837

I'm neither offended nor surprised. It'S just another reason why I do not trust any governments there are. I expect nobody to act against his very own interest. And to act honestly is against governments' interest. That the government will cheat, lie, erode or bypass laws and treaties, hide, and betray thus is a truth I always take for certain. Always. It is unreasonable to assume differently.


But I also see it from this perspective: Europe allows it, Europe invites it by remaining weak and helpless and passive, and European leaders did not complain as long as the dirty truth was kept hidden under the carpet.

Or does anyone seriously think for even just one second that European leaders did not know all this since years already...?


That the Germans do not overhear what is being talked in Whitehall or the White House however I am pretty much sure of. Nor does German economic espionage compare to the levels it is run by the US and China (as far as we know, but I think we simply do not have the assets, nor the will).

[u crank]

I'm neither offended nor surprised. It'S just another reason why I do not trust any governments there are. I expect nobody to act against his very own interest. And to act honestly is against governments' interest. That the government will cheat, lie, erode or bypass laws and treaties, hide, and betray thus is a truth I always take for certain. Always. It is unreasonable to assume differently.

I can almost agree to some extent. The difference is that I don't believe that ever single person in government is part of this grand conspiracy. I'm not quite that paranoid, if I may use that word. No offence intended.

I don't trust the government either. I don't think we are required to. In fact we would be fools to. This is why there are term limits and elections. In Canada we have an Auditor General. And there are many private watchdog agencies and concerned citizens.

Yes, as you say Governments, Gov't agencies, corporations and yes even individuals act in accordance with their own vested interests. This is the natural order of things. It always has been that way. We should not be surprised. Advances in technology and modern communication will only compound the issue. It's the evolutionary model on a large scale. The strong prey on the weak. If the weak do not adapt they will perish. What is morally right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Past alliances and long standing friendships have nothing to do with it. Power and money.

As to industrial spying, that's an even shadier deal. The owners of corporations in any country may have interests elsewhere. Who is spying on who and who benefits from it? Certain countries may use this information for their benefit but for sure international corporations are the real winners. Whether you're German or American means nothing to them. Profits.

That the Germans do not overhear what is being talked in Whitehall or the White House however I am pretty much sure of. Nor does German economic espionage compare to the levels it is run by the US and China (as far as we know, but I think we simply do not have the assets, nor the will).

Yes but the article suggests that Germany shares this information. Again I would ask, who is spying on who? Perhaps your Chancellor is very interested in this data?

This message will self destruct in five seconds. Good luck.:03:

[Mittelwaechter]

You say money rules the world, the strong rule the world, that's what it allways was like.

Well, money was invented to serve us, not to rule us. The accumulation of money enables us to rule.

If the strong rule the world and the weak have to accept it, then there is no bad in trying to become an even stronger one and make the former strong ones to accept it.
The strong ones say, this has to follow certain rules - the laws.
Really? I guess they just try to protect their status quo.

The weak could play any rules they like, to become the strong ones.
Because the strong ones rule the world - and they follow their own laws - if at all.
By the way - you may have observed it - some strong break the law and rule anyway.
The strong are not endagered, because the weak follow the laws.

And it is not allways like that. What about your family? Do you opress, starve or kill your weak members? Your friends? Do you care or rule?
Your neighborhood? Your village? Town? Nation?

It allways depends on your own point of view. If you want to care you do. There is no rule of overpower everybody else. It depends on your relationship.

We try to rule the others - the unknown. They may be slaves, they may die. We simply look away and care for our kind.

What would happen, if we would consider the whole mankind as our brothers?
Imagine we would have to fight a common enemy. An alien race, that wants to annihilate our species.
Do you think the strong would change their point of view? Would they share all their resources to surive?

Again - the strong are not endagered, because the weak follow the laws.
If they wouldn't, the strong would have to surrender, because they are only a few.

[Skybird]

I can almost agree to some extent. The difference is that I don't believe that ever single person in government is part of this grand conspiracy. I'm not quite that paranoid, if I may use that word. No offence intended.
I am about the modus operandi the system self-dynamically runs by. I tried to explain that to Oberon in detail two weeks ago, maybe you have read that slightly "excessive" thread. :) My claim is that in our system, politicians have a high interest and thus a strong motivation to play foul on their people, and that people even encourage them to play foul.

Like a swimmer in a stream - you flow with the direction the water runs at. It is not the swimmer making the waves. He is doomed to deal with waves the moment he enters the river. The river is what it is. There are lousy swimmers, there are athletic ones, some have good intentions, some have not. But only those who can swim keep their head over water, so nobody should be surprised that swimmers can - well, swim :), like one should not be surprised that politicians play foul. The river stays the same, water's direction stays the same. The waves are the same. Everybody gets wet.

My problem is with the river in general. Because it is wet. My problem is with the system, because it is foul. The swimmer, the politicians - hold no surprise at all. Paranoia has nothing to do with it. You are not hydrophobic when stating that water is wet.

[Jimbuna]

Looking at this article one can only presume SubSim is being bugged as well :hmmm:


French President Francois Hollande has said allegations that the US bugged European embassies could threaten a huge planned EU-US trade deal.



German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said "bugging friends is unacceptable... we are no longer in the Cold War".



Italy's Foreign Minister Emma Bonino said Rome had requested from Washington "clarification of a very thorny affair".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23125451

[Wolferz]

Money provides power. It enables power. It sustains power.
What do all men with money and power want?
More money and more power.
Look in the shadows and you will find these men. Men who are afraid because they fear the light of day that would expose their corruptions and diminish their power.
This is the establishment they have built for their own gain. What they don't build, they infiltrate and usurp.
Any man that dares shine a light on them is dealt with in a swift and harsh manner. That is the path Edward Snowden is walking now. We can only hope that he is bulletproof.

[MH]

People and companies spy on people OMG.:o
What world has come to....


Stone the POTUS long live the POTUS.

[HundertzehnGustav]

stone the Potus and all leaders across the globe.

[u crank]

You say money rules the world, the strong rule the world, that's what it allways was like.

And it is not allways like that. What about your family? Do you opress, starve or kill your weak members? Your friends? Do you care or rule?
Your neighborhood? Your village? Town? Nation?

No I don't. Does everybody else? No they don't. But since day one, some people, tribes , kings and nations have. All are born naked and innocent. All do not stay innocent. This is human nature. And evolution. Any reading of human history shows this quite plainly. Some humans and groups interact for their mutual benefit. But not all. Some humans and groups of humans act with only their own interests in mind. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it. I'm saying that's the way it is. That's the way it has always been.

Well, money was invented to serve us, not to rule us. The accumulation of money enables us to rule.

Money of itself is neutral. You can build a hospital or a hydrogen bomb. The money doesn't decide, the person with the money decides.

By the way - you may have observed it - some strong break the law and rule anyway.
The strong are not endagered, because the weak follow the laws.


I've noticed that also.

What would happen, if we would consider the whole mankind as our brothers?
Imagine we would have to fight a common enemy. An alien race, that wants to annihilate our species.
Do you think the strong would change their point of view? Would they share all their resources to surive?

That is a very interesting question and one I have thought about. Almost for certain someone would try to profit from it financially as well as politically. It's what we do. :D

[MH]

stone the Potus and all leaders across the globe.

Hopefully aliens will come soon abd save us.:haha:

[August]

stone the Potus and all leaders across the globe.

As long as those who call loudest for it are stoned first.

[u crank]

I am about the modus operandi the system self-dynamically runs by. I tried to explain that to Oberon in detail two weeks ago, maybe you have read that slightly "excessive" thread. :)

I tried to, honestly I did.:O: I caught the drift well enough.

My claim is that in our system, politicians have a high interest and thus a strong motivation to play foul on their people, and that people even encourage them to play foul.

I would agree but change 'politicians' to 'some politicians'. And perhaps that's what you mean. Other wise it is a total conspiracy rather than a system that can be and has been abused. No system set up by humans can be perfect.

My problem is with the system, because it is foul. The swimmer, the politicians - hold no surprise at all. Paranoia has nothing to do with it. You are not hydrophobic when stating that water is wet.

I believe the right word is aquaphobic.:know:

True . Stating that water is wet is stating the truth. The phobia comes after that if you let it.

[Sailor Steve]

stone the Potus and all leaders across the globe.
I agree. Things would probably be a lot better if all the world's leaders were stoned.









Wait. Are we talking about the same thing? :O:

[Mittelwaechter]

...
But since day one, some people, tribes , kings and nations have. All are born naked and innocent.

Your some people are only a few - the rest of the tribes or nations is just under influence of these few.
It's not nations who declare war. It's governments - or even better certain individuals of the government and those behind and close to them.

Mrs. Nash from Kentucky doesn't care about Mr Rahlamahni in Isfahan.
She doesn't know him and is not interested in any war. She wants do raise her kids and have some fun with the community. She stays kinda innocennt - just like Mr Rahlamahni in Isfahan.


It's a few persons deciding about the fate of millions. That's plain wrong - as it allways was. There is no tradition to justify it.

With the small groups of hunters running over the plains, there was a pow-wow about what to do for every important decision. Everybody was entitled to participate. The wisest suggestion was commonly supported and everybody felt part of it.
That's a superb idea of working democracy.

But our social groups were growing and we adapted the wolf pack constellation to be the ultimative form of society. Just because the alpha wolves did profit and they managed to convince that anybody can be an alpha wolf. Sure - but not everybody!

And we still grow our social groups - from regions to sates, to nations, to the global community. And still we want to believe the wolf pack is the appropriate system.
Watch nature and learn how large groups of mammals are organized.

The communist insect state is not the right sytem. We are no insects.
But the herd - the flock - is the system to copy. Resources are shared, the young are cared for by the whole group, the wolves and lions are enemies. The leader shares the hunger and the excess as the fate of the community.

Funny - but that's how it works among the alpha wolves. They share the cake and tell the rest of the pack they still fight for dominance.

It takes 90 fearsome sheep to have 10 happy wolves.
If you want to have 90 happy sheep, you have to get rid of the wolves.



Money of itself is neutral. You can build a hospital or a hydrogen bomb. The money doesn't decide, the person with the money decides.The accumulation of money in the hands of that person enables the lonely decision.

[Ducimus]

I agree. Things would probably be a lot better if all the world's leaders were stoned.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQzCGdO9yJI

[Mittelwaechter]

You've probably seen it before, but this is a better example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

[MH]

Mrs. Nash from Kentucky doesn't care about Mr Rahlamahni in Isfahan.
She doesn't know him and is not interested in any war. She wants do raise her kids and have some fun with the community. She stays kinda innocennt - just like Mr Rahlamahni in Isfahan.
.

Unfortunately there are so many nutcases all over the world who are led by all kinds of other nutcases who care.
Thats the reason why mrs Nash or Rahlamahni may suffer ... and at times want to see blood.

There is enough poison(ideologies) or pseudo intellectual ideas for everyone to swallow , even in the internet age or due to the internet age this very forum may be proof to that in some cases.
So please don't just blame the leaders :03:.

[u crank]

Your some people are only a few - the rest of the tribes or nations is just under influence of these few.
It's not nations who declare war. It's governments - or even better certain individuals of the government and those behind and close to them.

Yes this is common knowledge. Very few people are responsible for very much misery.

I don't think it matters who declared war. The real question is why. And we know why. Greed, racial hatred, territory, past animosity etc. etc. Nothing has changed except the technology to do it more efficiently. The problem is the human being.

There is no tradition to justify it.

I'm afraid there is. Thousands of years of it.

With the small groups of hunters running over the plains, there was a pow-wow about what to do for every important decision. Everybody was entitled to participate. The wisest suggestion was commonly supported and everybody felt part of it.
That's a superb idea of working democracy.


I would have to disagree. I doubt very much if it was like that. More likely the strongest and wisest ones in the group told the weakest and dumbest ones in the group what to do. It was a matter of self preservation. Groups that took a vote probably didn't last long. The alpha wolves probably kept the other wolves alive.

It takes 90 fearsome sheep to have 10 happy wolves.
If you want to have 90 happy sheep, you have to get rid of the wolves.

Any suggestions?:hmmm:

[Packlife]

To me Snowden is as much a traitor as the day is long, he's the one who decided to take off to China of all places w/ all kinds of intel goodies in his bag. An its been said that some of the things he's discussed he wasnt cleared for in the first place. It wasnt like he got the job to help keep the US safe, he admitted he got the job on purpose to dig up stuff to leak he went in with an agenda an most likely hacked his way to things he wasnt cleared for. Then instead of taking his punishment on the chin like a man he runs to China then Russia, Nelson mandella wasnt scared to go heads up with the apartheid government an sit in prison for years. An we all know he went to China an Russia because he knew they would be interested in what he had especially China who is constantly getting caught trying to hack into different parts of our government. So this guy went from a "leaker" to traitor since he had it in his mind to trade American classified intel to ppl who should definitely not have it, what would happen if the Chinese were able to say hack an shut down our power grid or something along that line an it was because of what he gave them for a plane ticket dude is a coward

[Ducimus]

You know what we need in this country? More coffee and less kool-aid.

[Wolferz]

:agree:

[Mittelwaechter]

Any suggestions?:hmmm:

What about try and error?

Don't fight the systems opposite to ours, don't destroy their economy with trading sanctions - just to show how miserable their system is.

Live and let live.

Our running "democratic" systems have to be changed in several aspects:
Transparency is absolutly necessary, the acceptance of true resposibility and its consequences for the mighty, abuse of power and control has to be penalized harshly (including corruption and nepotism), power and control has to be decentralized - not concentrated on the few from above ^^, influence of big money has to be minimized (You are rich? Then sail your yacht, enjoy the sun and stfu!), democracy has to meet the requirements (at least fateful decisions only by the people themselves), effects of laws and rules have to be evaluated and the laws corrected or thrown over board if necessary,
politicians should work for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of their party,
a minimum tax has to be established for the apples, microsofts and amazons - these global players trying to slip away everywhere, jobs for a superior benefit of the society have to be paid accordingly (nurses, policemen, firefighters...), jobs like analysing the wall street should be paid more realistic.

Plus I'd like to see some of the theories for negative income tax, unconditional basic income or Silvio Gsell's Freiwirtschaft to be tried open minded.
To be supported, not to be faught.

The ultimate goal must be a peaceful planet, with happy, free and safe citizens, well fed, well educated and of noble mind. A global society worth to convey our children.

The only problem is - the wealthy fear this and they fight it by all means.

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23138073

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rGiLB5gm80I/TdE60zcZzCI/AAAAAAAADmQ/2zhyiLdc2iU/s1600/Cat.jpg

[Mittelwaechter]

http://rt.com/news/edward-service-immigration-russian-493/

:hmmm:

[u crank]

Don't fight the systems opposite to ours, don't destroy their economy with trading sanctions - just to show how miserable their system is.

Transparency is absolutly necessary, the acceptance of true resposibility and its consequences for the mighty, abuse of power and control has to be penalized harshly

power and control has to be decentralized - not concentrated on the few from above ^^, influence of big money has to be minimized

politicians should work for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of their party,

All good ideas but not what I meant. I should have been more specific.

How do you implement these ideas. How do you force any government to change when they don't want to. Voting only changes the players not the management. Lobbyists have more money than they can use. Big business and governments have a cosy relationship. This has already been discussed in this thread. Ducimus mentioned the four boxes, soap, ballot, jury and bullet.
Short of shedding blood and destroying property, what is there? That's what I meant by "any ideas"

The ultimate goal must be a peaceful planet, with happy, free and safe citizens, well fed, well educated and of noble mind. A global society worth to convey our children.

Yeah, that's what most of us want.

[Catfish]

"If elections would change anything, they would be forbidden".

Apart from that, some news just in - anyone remember the US sub 'Parche', or the wiretapping of the Ochotsk cable ?
Seem the USS Jimmy Carter is equipped to do exactly that, with the trans-atlantic glas fibre cables.
This was in 2001/2:
http://www.zdnet.com/news/spy-agency-taps-into-undersea-cable/115877
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/02/06/04/205216/nsaus-navy-working-to-intercept-fiber-optic-cables
This, is new:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/die-uss-jimmy-carter-soll-fuer-die-nsa-glasfaserkabel-anzapfen-a-908815.html

I wonder how this works (if it does), technically ..

[MH]

"If elections would change anything, they would be forbidden".



YEAH

Anarchy!!!!:arrgh!:

[Catfish]

YEAH

Anarchy!!!!:arrgh!:

Certainly, all ctritics of 'democracies' must be anarchists :O:

But then .. hardly (it is a quote from Tucholsky):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tucholsky

" ... The "Weltbühne Trial" had made clear to him that critical publications already faced severe restrictions in Germany: from 1929 an investigation had been carried out of Carl von Ossietzky and the journalist Walter Kreiser for treason and the leaking of military secrets. ..."

Sounds familiar ?
And this also is from him (only found it in german, sorry):


Gesang der englischen Chorknaben
~ "The song of the english choir boys" (?)


Ehre sei Gott in der Hö-hö-he!

Wer hat die Wanzen und Flö-hö-he?
Die Armen,
die Armen –
Oh, habet Erbarmen!
Die Reichen
die Reichen
die brauchen das nicht;
sie liegen auf weichen,
weichen Kissen im Licht
oder bei ihren Damen –
Amen.
Ehre sei Gott in der ersten Etage!
Courage! Courage!
Macht eure Fabrik auch mal Plei-hei-te,
die Kirche, die steht euch zur Sei-hei-te
und gibt euch stets das Geleite:
sie beugt dem Proleten den Rücken krumm
und hält ihn sein ganzes Leben lang dumm,
und segnet den Staat und seine Soldaten,
die Unternehmer und Potentaten
und segnet überhaupt jede Schweinerei
und ist allemal dabei.
Jeder lebe in seinem Rahmen:
unten die Arbeitsamen
und oben die mit den Börseneinnahmen –
Amen.
Ehre den Gott der herrschenden Klassen!
Wir zähmen die Massen!
Wir lassen sie beten,
wenn sie getreten;
wir lassen sie singen,
wenn sie vor Hunger zerspringen;
wir lassen sie knien:
Wir wollen den Proletarier erziehn
zu einem geduldigen
unschuldigen
Arbeitstier – I-A! I-A!
Hallelujah!
Oh, tut doch nimmer im Beten erlahmen!
und höret auf der Kirche Reklamen –
jedes Ding, das ihr schiebt, schiebt ihr in IHREM Namen
Amen!
Theobald Tiger
Arbeiter Illustrierte Zeitung, 1928, Nr. 35, S. 11.




And no, he was not even a communist, but the Nazis of course hunted him for being critical (and a jew).

[Mittelwaechter]

Short of shedding blood and destroying property, what is there? That's what I meant by "any ideas"

At first we have to have the Snowdons, who show the people the necessity to change the system. We have to encourage them to tell the truth, for all to see. They must be supported by the public, not demotivated.

We have to counter the media distraction, the media discreditation. We have to make the people aware of the measures to be expected by the media after these whistle blows. The public has to understand, the media is not independant and reliable, but controlled by those in the background. Education is a key, spread the word.

The majority has to realize they are out of control, their vote doesn't change anything. All parties are too close with the big business and too far away from the average Joe.
Change - Yes we can! is impossible, if the media manipulates the public to withdraw their initial support for a change and makes 'em vote for the other party to rule the congress.

We have to show alternatives to the established system. Too many doubt a change is possible, too many think this system is the ultima ratio, a change isn't necessary.

A regular "democracy" spiced up with some demarchy maybe?

(Demarchy is a form of government in which the state is governed by randomly selected decision makers who have been selected by sortition (lot) from a broadly inclusive pool of eligible citizens. These groups, sometimes termed "policy juries", "citizens' juries", or "consensus conferences", deliberately make decisions about public policies in much the same way that juries decide criminal cases. * from Wikipedia)

Let 3000 (?) by sortition appointed people decide together with the politicians. This would minimize the lobbyists influence on the decisions.

This way we could establish those laws and regulations securing our future, the future of our children. Without any blood shed or guillotines.

There may be better ways.


The people have to realize the consequences of their lifestyle. The US has 50 million folks on food stamps and another 50 million at the poverty line. That's one third of the US population.

The military actions taken by the government caused half a million dead civilians in Irak.
(Body count says 100 000 and some NGOs say more then a million - let's meet in the middle)
We act to the opposite of want we tell to be wrong. We do wrong!
We terrorize with drones and cruise missiles, but we expect to accept this.
We are on a war on terror - by terrorizing innocent others. Our governments are terrorists.

The lifestyle of the west consumes 80% of the world's recources. 1.5 billion people have no clean water, not enough food, no education. We support local dictators who don't give a dime for their people, but are willing partners for our oily or well armed business.

We have to tell our politicians to work on this. To work on peace and justice for the world. We - our side - are the ones who must act for the better. We got this far and reached our social-cultural advantage by opressing, robbing and destroying the lives of millions. We have to pay back, to care, to help, to lead, to educate.
We have to realize our lifestyle has to economize for the others to live up.

Or we simply give a .... (Hi Steve), shrug our shoulders and have a hot dog and a beer.


I'm no anarchist.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.zdnet.com/news/spy-agency-taps-into-undersea-cable/115877[/URL]
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/02/06/04/205216/nsaus-navy-working-to-intercept-fiber-optic-cables
This, is new:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/die-uss-jimmy-carter-soll-fuer-die-nsa-glasfaserkabel-anzapfen-a-908815.html

I wonder how this works (if it does), technically ..

This was one of my first thoughts when the **it hit the fan on the NSA, but I could not remember the name of the boat or the name of the captain.

Thanks for the links ... didn't they accidently cut the cable as I remember?

[August]

Thanks for the links ... didn't they accidently cut the cable as I remember?

If true there was no accident about it. You can't tap fiber optic cable without first cutting it.

[Mittelwaechter]

Be careful gents - this is a link to wikileaks.
Remember, you are watched by the NSA and they keep all your online activities save.
If you plan to work for a public institution it may be better not to click the link.

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-from-Edward-Snowden-in.html?snow

"In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be."

[u crank]

@Mittelwaechter.

Again lots of good ideas. Good thoughts and insights. Please don't take offence but it's mostly wishful thinking. I say that because I don't see how it can be brought about. I don't see it happening.

Then again if you are personally trying to do something about it, good for you. I wish you all the best.

I'm no anarchist.

Good to know. Neither am I. But I have a realistic view of the world as it is.
It's not pretty. I wish it wasn't so.

Regards, crank.:salute:

[HundertzehnGustav]

I agree. Things would probably be a lot better if all the world's leaders were stoned.
Wait. Are we talking about the same thing? :O:


It would send a warning signal: Politicias and leaders are not only powerful but also Vulnerable.
who is next for leading a country? wil spawn the question : who is next in line to be killed?

This either leads to Leaders being more careful in their Doings, or in Humanity selfdestructing.

I hope the latter, for i see no purpose for humans on this planet, besides getting on the nerves of all other forms of life.

From the biggest trees to the smallest beast, we the predators in here, and really deserve to die for our stupid, egoist, evil ways.

[TarJak]

So Putin says he can stay in Russia if he does no more harm to "our American partners." Interesting line in BS there. Hats off Vladimir.

http://world.time.com/2013/07/01/putin-to-offer-snowden-asylum-but-with-a-catch/

[HundertzehnGustav]

heh.
If snowden is an element that might help to overthrow the system...
and Putin is the head of another system...

its only logical to handcuff snowden, or make him promise to behave. Best interest for mpother russia too.

if he stays in russia, he gets a bullet in the neck and a shallow grave, sometime down the road.
and he knows that. so now, he wont stay in russia.

simplez.

[Skybird]

what putin really said is that they do not want snowden. they just wrapped that content
in some roses, with thick thorns.

[HundertzehnGustav]

getouttahere, troublemaker!

[TarJak]

what putin really said is that they do not want snowden. they just wrapped that content
in some roses, with thick thorns.

Absolutely. They don't want him, though they may want his information which would be the only way they'd let him stay. If they get the info and no-one else does.

Putin want's someone else to shave the pig.

[HundertzehnGustav]

its ridiculous even.

you reveal flaws of "da system" and tell the population.

you say you know a lot of nasty stuff.

you run away from "da system" and ask a different "da system" to protect you and your personal future from your old "da system"

all the while still being a timebomb to ANY "da system"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0SP7i74Sy0A/TnKqJ8s1yBI/AAAAAAAAAvs/dWUTCUpUva4/s1600/jackie-chan-meme.png

[Jimbuna]

So Putin says he can stay in Russia if he does no more harm to "our American partners." Interesting line in BS there. Hats off Vladimir.

http://world.time.com/2013/07/01/putin-to-offer-snowden-asylum-but-with-a-catch/

The list of those not going to grant asylum are growing:

Asylum requests


Rejected: Austria, Brazil, Finland, India, Ireland, Norway, Poland, Spain, Switzerland
Withdrawn: Russia
Pending: Bolivia, China, Cuba, Ecuador, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, Nicaragua
Unconfirmed: France, Venezuela
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23145887

[Mittelwaechter]

Stumbled across this here.
The people have to realize there is a problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk

And this is a great old man, telling the truth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ

[mapuc]

The danish politicians say that, if he seeks asylum in Denmark he should be granted this. It's mostly those from the left such as Ehl(The united list)

Markus

[Hottentot]

This either leads to Leaders being more careful in their Doings, or in Humanity selfdestructing.

I hope the latter, for i see no purpose for humans on this planet, besides getting on the nerves of all other forms of life.

From the biggest trees to the smallest beast, we the predators in here, and really deserve to die for our stupid, egoist, evil ways.

I see our resident misanthrope still hasn't figured out what the easiest and best solution to his angst would be, both long- and short term.

[garren]

I think he should come back and face the government David vs Goliath style. It just looks too cowardly to me for him to be running like this. If he felt so strongly about informing the people then he should have had the balls to stand his ground HERE in America. People in America are desperately looking for a leader to rally behind. We need someone with the balls to lead the way. Our government has just too much power and control over us these days. We live in the most restrictive country in the world and have the nerve to say we live in a "free" country.

What's so free about it? Just seems to be a nation of laws and restrictions for just about anything and everything. Can say this, can't do that, or it's off to prison with you for a very very long time. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's costing American tax payers a fortune to house, feed, medicate all these supposed criminals. Most of the people in prison are not bad people. Why don't we only confine REAL dangers to society like murderers, rapists, child molesters, armed bank robbers, and terrorists? Why put drug users in prison?

Why put people in prison who do drugs, write bad checks, don't pay their taxes, steal petty property, etc? Deterrent? Well, that doesn't seem to be working. What sense does it make for society to go all out just to punish a man who goes into a store and steals a gallon of milk and a Snickers bar? The total cost of his theft is under $10 bucks, yet the store owner will call the cops and they will come out to investigate. That right there cost more than $10 bucks since you have to pay the cops salary, his gas for his patrol car, the report, etc. Then they catch this man and put him in jail and hook him up with a free attorney at the tax payers expense that costs thousands of dollars. He's being feed more than $10.00 a day worth of food while awaiting his trial. He even gets his medical expenses fully covered during this time if he needs any emergency medical issues taken care off, all on tax payer expense.

Then he goes to trial, gets found guilty, goes back to jail for a year for his crime. By the time it's all said and done, a $10 theft turned into hundreds of thousands, if not millions in some cases, all for such petty crap. This country has just become too greedy, doesn't care about it's people (especially the poor and lower middle class), and only wants to depopulate by getting involved in pointless never ending wars to kill off as many men as possible.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I see our resident misanthrope still hasn't figured out what the easiest and best solution to his angst would be, both long- and short term.

i aint got no angst, for there is no need to be afraid.
i just see.
and stopped caring for the large picture.

[HundertzehnGustav]

and only wants to depopulate by getting involved in pointless never ending wars to kill off as many men as possible.

7 billion and counting.

half of those want
drinkable water
proper food
land
security
fake Boobs for themselves or their wives(or both)
an iphone,
a house,
season tickets to opera/baseball/basketball/soccer
and two cars per household.


...whaddya expect?

they even start stopping each other's planes from transiting, for fear of displeasing the Big bullies, aka US of A.

i mean...

[Jimbuna]

Snowden case: Spain allows Evo Morales jet to fly over.

This story just keeps on getting better....anymore for anymore?


Spain has opened its airspace to Bolivian president Evo Morales' plane, after it was diverted to Austria amid suspicions Edward Snowden was on board.
Austrian officials said the plane was searched and Mr Snowden, wanted by the US for leaking secrets, was not there.



Bolivia has been enraged by Mr Morales' treatment, and has asked for a crisis meeting of South American leaders.


It'll all end up in total war a tells ya :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

[Catfish]

^ 'in former times' (read: not long ago) this kind of wiretapping
was a cause for war.

However i cannot really express the disgust and despise for governments not letting planes with S. fly over their territory, or granting asylum.
Including my own.

Erbärmlich. :nope:

[HundertzehnGustav]

banning a flyover... is like blocking the road.
What just happened made us Europeans very popular down there.
Not.

i mean like... Its the president on a diplomatic Mission!
The EU is such a Puppy to the US.

Who is scared of Big bad Obama?

BOOO!


wished he was on board.:yep:
THEN WHAT. whatchagonnado bout that! Take Snowden in custody? Face up and thank the man?

EU just avoided standing up for itself.
:nope:

[Mittelwaechter]

25 independant nations and Russia should cooperate and the 25 should send airplanes to Moscow.
74 Snowdon body look alike guys with guy fawkes masks and small baggage should enter the airport.
75 masked persons should leave it later to take off again - heading home.
All 25 nations should officially grant Snowdon asylum, because he entered their territory.

That would be a cool action.

We have a guest room and a filled fridge. If Snowden wants to live here with us, we'd feel honoured.

[HundertzehnGustav]

...!
+1

[Skybird]

What is the situation (regarding legality and diplomatic immunity) of the stunt some European countries and Austria just have run on the Bolevian president's plane which was forced to land at Vienna and then claimed to be searched for Snowden, with the president being aboard?

I imagine the american reaction if Air Force One with POTUS aboard gets forced to land at let's say a Birmese airport and there gets entered and searched over claims that somebody wanted by Russia or China could be aboard.

At least the forum would reach boiling temperature in zero time, I'm sure. And the US homeland and parts of the world as well, probably.

Reports are not clear so far. It seems that closing national airspaces surprisngly forced the plane to land and Vienna due to fuel shortages resulting from the surprising closings. Austrian officials contradict themselves on whether the plane has been searched or not. Bolivian claims also contradict themselves. From both sides you get reports on both a search took place, and a search not having taken place.

[HundertzehnGustav]

They would start the B-52s on special training and recce missions.
Europe just screwed up in regards to south America.
Embarassing to say the least.

[August]

^ 'in former times' (read: not long ago) this kind of wiretapping
was a cause for war.

When is this kind of wiretapping ever been the cause of a war?

[Mittelwaechter]

The longer this second-rate theatre goes, the more I think Snowden is in "Iceland". :up:

No one has seen him in Moscow - for at least a week now.

I guess he was well prepared. The Cuban flight was a great distraction and his ticket to "Iceland" was maybe bought with another passport. I'd plan ahead in his situation.

This running comedy is just to blur his trails and all these demasking actions of the US and the other involved nations are an eye-opening side effect.

Putin is hosting a show and our best of all actors are making fools of themselves to shock the audience with insight.

[Catfish]

And no one talks about the real issue - all the garbage we see in the media is almost the same desinformation that we hear from the government.

[Wolferz]

And no one talks about the real issue - all the garbage we see in the media is almost the same desinformation that we hear from the government.

Of course. That's where the news media gets their stories. From the government.
We have literally hundreds of Baghdad Bobs.:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Of course. That's where the news media gets their stories. From the government.
We have literally hundreds of Baghdad Bobs.:hmmm:

Is this the same guy also known as Comical Ali?

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/110/163/110163461_640.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=bL9JYqPSxYBCjM&tbnid=XJAzJ_o2XbzJPM:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F17671569&ei=_HLUUaqqE8OiO9PvgOAB&psig=AFQjCNH_ekjULNnWqFraY28vPiMM8c5j_A&ust=1372963964348387)

[Wolferz]

:haha:

Just pissing off a lot of folks.:nope::nope:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19264421-snowden-hunt-bolivia-complains-to-un-over-abduction-of-its-president?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

[Nicolas]

Interesting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/microsoft-twitter-rivals-nsa-requests

[Skybird]

NYT reports that ALL paper mail in the US gets photographed from outside and data like sender and receiver transferred to NSA, data gets stored for unlimited time.

The more this story unfolds, the more the guys of the Stasi must feel like untalented idiots.

Needless to say that all this is not exactly anargument to counter my opinion that states are the enemies of the citizens living in them and that government s forever seek to grab more control and power over people until an absolute totalitarian dictaorship has been established. With computer and digitalisation of our culture and society you will see it all racing down that lane in the coming years and decades, until the end. Electikns or laws will do sh! t to stop this. It is an inherent feature of just any governmental system to allways grab more control and power until control is total and absolute.

we are all suspects, assumed guilty as long as we do not prove our innocence and, more important, our loyalty. And the governments silently have errected an invisible prison around us, yes. They close the last holes in the prison walls. We keep on dreaming. Only dilletantic regimes maintain tyranny by brute force. In the West it is being done far more subtle, and lasting.

NOBODY SHOULD HAVE THAT AMOUNT OF POWER, AND NO GOVERNMENT SHOULD EVER HAVE THAT AMOUNT OF POWER. Nothing good can come from this.

[Wolferz]

knock knock Neo...
The matrix has you.:timeout:

Now be a good little battery.

[Mittelwaechter]

Today!

http://rt.com/usa/4th-amendment-nsa-protests-665/

Just because there is only little information about in the US media.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

[Betonov]

I love protest banners, Realy brings up the creativity of the people in bite size phrases

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOV12YZCAAA4pW8.jpg:large

[Schroeder]

I found it extremely funny that some countries even denied Bolivia's president Morales' plane to fly through their airspace just because of rumours that Snowden might have been aboard:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/04/world/americas/bolivia-morales-snowden/index.html

It would be totally embarrassing if it wasn't so worrying. :dead:
Imagine some country would force Airforce One to land somewhere unscheduled....

[Ducimus]

Protestors rally near NSA data center for 4th Amendment rights (http://www.ksl.com/?sid=25870366&nid=148&title=protestors-rally-near-nsa-data-center-for-4th-amendment-rights&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-9)

[Skybird]

French massive surveillance program revealed by Le Monde yesterday, much of it apparently illegal and in violation of French laws. Huge German program rumoured and hinted at over the week.

No checks and balances anywhere. System failure one calls that.

I am not surprised.

[HundertzehnGustav]

next the benelux. Then The Latinos...

sitting tight and looking for an opportunity to protest.

[Skybird]

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article117776704/Prism-ist-geradezu-klein-gegenueber-seinem-Nachfolger.html

Knowledge is power. Nobody should have that amount of power. Nobody.

It all is about industrial espionage. Not terror - business espionage. That is what proves wrong all those pathetic speeches about transatlantic relations and friendship between states.

But one has to give it to the NSA: it successfully spoilt all planned terror plots by the EU parliament and EU commission against the US. Merkel's planned assassination of Obama also so far was not succesfully carried out. Maybe there is something good in all this nevertheless?

[u crank]

But one has to give it to the NSA: it successfully spoilt all planned terror plots by the EU parliament and EU commission against the US. Merkel's planned assassination of Obama also so far was not succesfully carried out. Maybe there is something good in all this nevertheless?

That's the spirit. Always look for the positives in any situation. :O:

[Tchocky]

What is the situation (regarding legality and diplomatic immunity) of the stunt some European countries and Austria just have run on the Bolevian president's plane which was forced to land at Vienna and then claimed to be searched for Snowden, with the president being aboard?

Totally legal and not exactly unprecedented. This kind if thing happens quite often - some countries are very twitchy about what they do or don't allow in their airspace. This is a lot higher-profile due to it being a government jet, but the European countries were well within their rights to deny access. I make no comment on whether it was the right thing to do, but it was above board.

Diplomatic traffic is what's called flow-management exempt. That means you can't reroute it around busy areas to relieve controller workload. It doesn't mean it has free right of passage. For that a diplomatic clearance is needed, and this is negotiated with every overflown country and noted in the flight plan. Countries are free to withdraw a diplomatic clearance at any time for any reason. I've seen it happen to aircraft midflight.

[Skybird]

The question I asked when the dust still had notz settled. It now seems that the plane was blocked by ciountries until it ran out of fuel - and had to land at Vienna, wehre it apparenbtly had been serarched.

French sources and I think Spanish sources meanwhile said "that they were told" (that's how they put it) Snowden were aboard, and in a reaction then closed their airspace to help causing that fuel problem for the jet.

So it was staged, I take that for granted. Formally legal by the dot above the i, but by intention the same as if violating a law, imo.

And the crying wolves in Europe. So thankful for being told about the NSA spying - but in reality being so angry about him and fearing he has unpleasant things to say about their own control programs, too.

Hypocrisy at its best.

I wished we had the greatness to grant him asylum. Assange as well. Instead we act like just another small drop of smear in that cup of grease. Piteous.

[Catfish]

All bad enough, especially the spitlicking of some european countries (including Germany), but :
this is about what leaked out, and not about Snowden or second level actions.

What about the contents ? Is ANYBODY questioning and doing something about THAT ?!
:/\\!!

[Mittelwaechter]

Think about the reaction, if Air Force One with the POTUS aboard would be forced to land somewhere to be searched. It would be a totally regular event?

European nations had no problems with clearing air space for CIA flights, to transport prisoners landing in Poland or wherever, just to torture them not on US soil.

Totally legal? Two face!

[Tchocky]

Think about the reaction, if Air Force One with the POTUS aboard would be forced to land somewhere to be searched. It would be a totally regular event?[\quote] the plane was not technically forced down, it was denied clearance to continue. Air Force 1 isn't immune to this kind of thing, countries refuse clearance to U.S. diplomatic aircraft all the time.

Any country is within their rights to deny clearance.

[Quote]European nations had no problems with clearing air space for CIA flights, to transport prisoners landing in Poland or wherever, just to torture them not on US soil.

Totally legal? Two face!

Point is - nothing was publicly said about rendition or torture when these flights were applying for diplomatic clearance. It was not a state level decision at the time.

[Mittelwaechter]

...not technically forced... - brilliant! :woot:

...countries refuse clearance to U.S. diplomatic aircraft all the time... - you've got a link to this? Or do you think this is fact?
And any US diplomatic aircraft is not the president's plane.

In Morales case, the clearance was given at first with the flight plan - as usual - but denied midflight somewhere close to French and Italian airspace. They were directed to Vienna, refueled and denied clearance for take off for 13 hours.

...Point is - nothing was publicly said about rendition or torture when these flights were applying for diplomatic clearance. It was not a state level decision at the time.

But it was publicly said, Snowden may be aboard Morales's plane, or what?


It stinks!

[mookiemookie]

Venezuela and Nicaragua are offering Snowden asylum: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/05/19309635-venezuela-nicaragua-offer-asylum-to-nsa-leaker-snowden?lite

[Platapus]

If the SEBIN get a hold of Snowden, they will peel him like an onion. :nope:

I hope Snowden is thinking very carefully these days.