US warns of Snowden consequences [Archive] - Page 2

u crank

07-06-13, 09:39 AM

Just some thoughts before the elephant in this room breaks something. We are being a little naive aren't we? Friendly nations spying on each other? Oh my. Didn't see that coming.

Let's face it, espionage is a fact of life. Not using the abilities that are available is like making a scientific discovery and not using that information while others, friend or foe, use the same information on you. My guess is that it will only intensify and become more subtle. Snowden's disclosure will only make them better intelligence gatherers. Get use to it.

Europeans who get outraged by the discovery that NSA is listening should realize that the chief espionage threat to them is not the USA but China and Russia, among others, who of course also spy on the US. The USA has a defence and industrial complex that it shares with its European partners. So let's say because of NSA's intelligence gathering they discover a security leak in a German agency that the Chinese are exploiting.

Wouldn't you like to know that?

Then there is the reality of the situation. I may not agree with it. You may not agree with it but that doesn't change the way the world is. We should not be surprised by any of this. Protest all you want, be outraged and offended.

Do you think it will stop?

Gen. Michael V. Hayden, former head of the CIA and NSA on CBS's Face the Nation.

“Number one, the United States does conduct espionage. Number two, our fourth amendment, which protects Americans’ privacy, is not an international treaty. And, number three, any European who wants to go out and rend their garments with regard to international espionage should look first and find out what their own governments are doing.”

What does he know?

Some Americans see some European countries as less than trustworthy partners who breach sanctions, go easy on Islamist extremists, flirt with dictators and leak secrets to America's enemies.

Is any of that true?

Countries may spy on their so called friends for a number of reasons, but the main one has to be to find out if they can trust them and to know what their future intentions are.

Is that unreasonable?

Platapus

07-06-13, 10:29 AM

One could say that nations are considered "friendly" specifically because we collect information on them so we know what they are up to.

To quote Damon Runyon "Trust, but verify". :yep:

Mittelwaechter

07-06-13, 10:38 AM

We accept thousands of dead by traffic accidents, thousands dead by doctors botch, by alcohol, weapons and tobacco abuse etc - but we have to run a total surveillance program for some totally unachievable security from terrorism? Therefore we want to know what our potential enemies - but also our friends and all the people in our own countries think, what they fear, what they dream of, what they plan to do?
Are you serious?

Espionage may have been common for centuries, but it was limited to spy the governments, the military, even the economy.
Don't tell me we have to accept this espionage on everybody, just because they have the capacity to do so right now.
The governments, the military and the economy has enough power to deal with this espionage, but the average man has neither time, nor money, nor information to fight back.

I don't want to have a few guys in black suits and shades following me around, noting every thing I do, I watch, I talk about and report it 24/7 to a central entity, claiming it wants to protect me.
I don't want to be checked every 200 meters from some state security police, just to feel mistakenly 'safe' from some imaginary potential terrorists behind the next tree.
This is exactly what happens, just hidden in an unrecognizable, untouchable and unobtrusive virtual space. This is the opposite of freedom. This is to be controlled, to be opressed, to be forced into conformed bahaviour.

Some of us had this sort of dystopia. It existed several times, for the same security reasons - to protect the people from the evil. It was abused everytime.
The free, upright and honest gave their lives to fight these systems. Now their children want to establish exactly this system? That's our way to honour our ancestors sacrifice?
We are encouraged to simply condone the next - even more dangerous - version of this system, because - well - we can't change it anyway?

Those who think they can't change it, won't change it. Those who think they can, will try and probably do. If you fight you can lose - or win. If you don't fight you have already lost.

There are allways those, who obey orders of any superior. And there are allways those who doubt and challenge the superiors to order.
These are obedient and submissive, those are self-determined and free - at least up to a certain degree.

Think! This is the task of our generation.

Mittelwaechter

07-06-13, 10:57 AM

One could say that nations are considered "friendly" specifically because we collect information on them so we know what they are up to.

To quote Damon Runyon "Trust, but verify". :yep:

Don't forget to check the pockets and the email of your live partner, mate.

Platapus

07-06-13, 11:13 AM

Don't forget to check the pockets and the email of your live partner, mate.

I have been giving her the benefit of the doubt for 17 years now. So far, worked out pretty well. :up:

Mittelwaechter

07-06-13, 11:34 AM

After 17 years better assume she knows what she wants to know. :)

Tell her you love her! You'll appreciate it.

Nicolas

07-06-13, 11:36 AM

"...Garcia Linera denounced during a special press issue in the main courtyard of the Presidential Palace in La Paz. Accompanied by the Cabinet as a whole in their quality of Bolivian president in office, Garcia Linera denounced also the flagrant violation of the Vienna Convention regarding the official flights and use of airspace and airports, previously consented."

Platapus

07-06-13, 11:46 AM

After 17 years better assume she knows what she wants to know. :)

Tell her you love her! You'll appreciate it.

Two of the most important phrases a man needs in a relationship is

I love you
I am sorry

However, never never use them together "I am sorry that I love you". It does not work out well. :oops::D

Wolferz

07-06-13, 11:50 AM

Who are the bigger fools?
The fools or the fools who follow them?

It's like a column of moles where the lead mole keeps stopping and the rest get to smell molasses.

u crank

07-06-13, 02:59 PM

but we have to run a total surveillance program for some totally unachievable security from terrorism?

Do you have any evidence that it isn't working?

Therefore we want to know what our potential enemies - but also our friends and all the people in our own countries think, what they fear, what they dream of, what they plan to do?
Are you serious?

This is the very nature of intelligence gathering. To know as much as possible about as many things as possible. Anything less is bad intelligence. It's the nature of the business. I didn't say I agree with it. I simply recognize that it exists and that it is part of our world.

Espionage may have been common for centuries, but it was limited to spy the governments, the military, even the economy.

Again, do you have any evidence of that?

Don't tell me we have to accept this espionage on everybody, just because they have the capacity to do so right now.

Oh you don't have to accept it or like it. I didn't say that. But I think you should get use to it because I think it's only going to get worse. And when they tell you they're not doing it any more will you believe them?

The belief that you, the average citizen is being watched 24/7 by guys in black suits is mild paranoia and absurd. They are not the least bit interested in you. Unless, of course you give them a reason to be. Are you?

Some of us had this sort of dystopia.

Are you referring to a police state? If so that is not the same thing.

There are allways those, who obey orders of any superior. And there are allways those who doubt and challenge the superiors to order.
These are obedient and submissive, those are self-determined and free - at least up to a certain degree.

I don't think it is ever that clear a choice.

I for one would rather have black suits monitoring everybody than to have some poor misfortunates being tortured in Gitmo for the same piece of information. How about you?

Mittelwaechter

07-06-13, 05:43 PM

Do you have any evidence that it isn't working?

Of course. If I decide to rent a SUV and drive through your next mall - killing shoppers in the name of my god - until some policeman kills me, because I wouldn't stop until I'm dead. How would your total surveillance hinder me?

The advantage of who does what, where, when and by which means is not to counter with any surveillance. You would have to mind control everybody to be somewhat sure to be safe.

This is the very nature of intelligence gathering. To know as much as possible about as many things as possible. Anything less is bad intelligence. It's the nature of the business. I didn't say I agree with it. I simply recognize that it exists and that it is part of our world.This is mumbo - To kill your wife, your father and your whole familiy is the nature of insane killing. To kill as many as possible as fast as possible. Anything less is inefficient. The nature - you know. I don't say I like it, but I simply recognize it exists...

Again, do you have any evidence of that?
As far as I know there was not enough capacity to spy on everybody in the past. Evidence? The same evidence as your Grand-grand-father breathed air.
Another foul question.

Oh you don't have to accept it or like it. I didn't say that. But I think you should get use to it because I think it's only going to get worse. And when they tell you they're not doing it any more will you believe them?Yeah! Why don't we accept the terrorists to bomb our homes?

The belief that you, the average citizen is being watched 24/7 by guys in black suits is mild paranoia and absurd. They are not the least bit interested in you. Unless, of course you give them a reason to be. Are you?
The black suits are a comparison to clarify the situation of being under surveillance - and you understand it very well. Mumbo.

How can I know if I give someone a reason of interest? I have no control over it. That's the problem with this 'I have nothing to hide' statement. Maybe this conversation is a reason to check both of us.

Are you referring to a police state? If so that is not the same thing.
No. I.E. the Third Reich and the DDR were no police states. They were just checking their people for certain attributes. The people should have got used of it, because it was natural for the systems.

I don't think it is ever that clear a choice.

I for one would rather have black suits monitoring everybody than to have some poor misfortunates being tortured in Gitmo for the same piece of information. How about you?Simply non-sequitur! https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white)

Bad style of discussion.

u crank

07-06-13, 07:32 PM

Of course. If I decide to rent a SUV and drive through your next mall - killing shoppers in the name of my god - until some policeman kills me, because I wouldn't stop until I'm dead. How would your total surveillance hinder me?

The advantage of who does what, where, when and by which means is not to counter with any surveillance. You would have to mind control everybody to be somewhat sure to be safe.

You and I both know this is not what you were referring to and that these types of random mindless events are not preventable. On the other hand if you had been discussing this act in a monitored communication with like minded people, well....

This is mumbo -

Good response. I'll try again. The very nature of intelligence is to gather as much as possible and analyze it. In this trade there is no such thing as too much information. What is irrelevant is discarded but nothing is irrelevant until it is analyzed.

What I don't understand is your equating intelligence gathering to the insane killing of a family. Care to explain?

As far as I know there was not enough capacity to spy on everybody in the past. Evidence? The same evidence as your Grand-grand-father breathed air.
Another foul question.

Careful, my friend, careful. And that's not much of an answer. In fact that's no answer at all.

The black suits are a comparison to clarify the situation of being under surveillance - and you understand it very well. Mumbo.

Yes. That is exactly what I was referring to. The question stands. Why would they be interested in you? Answer. They're not.

No. I.E. the Third Reich and the DDR were no police states.

Well, you got me there. I'm speechless.

Simply non-sequitur! https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white)

The two possibilities suggested are not the only possibilities nor did I suggest they were. I noticed you didn't answer.

Bad style of discussion.

Yea okay, I tried.

Betonov

07-07-13, 02:56 AM

We'd take him, We even had an ID card made for him

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/971662_176975475812450_1640357487_n.jpg

Too bad our goverment, the little obidient muts they are, would bring him to the US themselves :nope:

Mittelwaechter

07-07-13, 04:54 AM

You and I both know this is not what you were referring to and that these types of random mindless events are not preventable. On the other hand if you had been discussing this act in a monitored communication with like minded people, well....

These terrorists all around - we are referring to - do discuss their ideas in monitored communications? The stupid ones maybe.

Even if so: Onkel Bruno kommt morgen zum vereinbarten Treffpunkt und bringt die Geburtstagstorte für Ulrike mit. Wir werden uns etwas verspäten, der Zugfahrplan hat sich seit dem letzten Jahr geändert. Ich bin mir sicher, es wird wieder eine lustige Party. Linda hat angerufen und gesagt, sie hat gestern den ganzen Tag das Gästezimmer geputzt und freut sich schon riesig. Na dann, bis morgen in alter Frische.
Tobias

I have taken some digital pictures and shared the originals with my friends directly via USB stick. I open one of these pics on my permanent offline computer, merge a grey text message layer (1% opacity) and post it at Flickr or wherever via internet café.
My partners in terror download the pic and compare it offline with their original and read the message.

2x coded communication out in the open. No way for the slap hats to find any information.
I can imagine more ways to communicate safely, even without any interest in terror acts.

All this surveillance/intelligence is NOT to catch terrorists before they commit an attack. It's just good to investigate the guys after an attack. And because everything is secret, all information can be manipulated the way it seems fit. No chance for the sovereign to check what the institutions are after. They are out of control - we call it democracy.
No camera can prevent a crime, it just can observe it.

Did the Boston bombers communicate with Chechenia? They were even suspects...

If someone is suspected to be a terrorist, it would be ok to check his communication. But are we all suspected to be terrorists?

Yup, we are. Our masters fear their reign to be ended by educated, well informed people, who gather at squares and chant for a new system. Watch it live!

"Governments will use whatever technology is available to combat their primary enemy – their own population." Noam Chomsky

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/19/nsa-surveillance-attack-american-citizens-noam-chomsky

The two possibilities suggested are not the only possibilities nor did I suggest they were. I noticed you didn't answer.
I would not monitor everybody but only suspects, and I would never torture the Gitmo style. The only way torture may be a tool is, if there is a recognized smoking gun situation.
You know - this 24 Sutherland scenery, for the west to learn our western torture may be necessary and noble.

Mittelwaechter

07-07-13, 05:53 AM

“In the technotronic society the trend would seem to be towards the aggregation of the individual support of millions of uncoordinated citizens, easily within the reach of magnetic and attractive personalities effectively exploiting the latest communications techniques to manipulate emotions and control reason.” Zbignew Brzezinski (Between Two Ages : America’s Role in the Technotronic Era, 1970)

“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values (of Liberty). Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.” Zbigniew Brzezinski (Between Two Ages, 1970)

“Society dominated by an elite whose claim to political power would rest on allegedly superior scientific know-how. Unhindered by the restraints of traditional liberal values, this elite would not hesitate to achieve its political ends by using the latest modern techniques for influencing public behavior and keeping society under close surveillance and control.” Zbignew Brzezinski

u crank

07-07-13, 06:06 AM

These terrorists all around - we are referring to - do discuss their ideas in monitored communications? The stupid ones maybe.

Yes, and the stupid ones do get caught.

The two suspects were arrested on Monday afternoon in Abbotsford after being first covertly tracked and investigated in February 2013 by the RCMP for suspicious activity.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/07/canada-day-bomb-plot-at-bc-legislature-2-charged-in-alleged-terror-plot/

All this surveillance/intelligence is NOT to catch terrorists before they commit an attack. It's just good to investigate the guys after an attack.

Obviously not all terrorist communication will be discovered. Does this mean we give the stupid, careless and amateur ones a free hand? And what better way to prosecute them after they are caught? Or to uncover their friends?

They are out of control - we call it democracy.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

If someone is suspected to be a terrorist, it would be ok to check his communication. But are we all suspected to be terrorists?

I would hope not. Being observed does not make you a suspect. In some ways we are all under observation and have been all along. Our parents, our teachers and our friends observe us in a non malicious way. They can't help it. Here's an example. You and I are neighbours. We see each other often and say hello. I can't do this without observing you. It is a casual thing, but I can't help noticing things about you. You are a normal person. Then one day when arriving at our homes at the same time I notice you carrying an automatic weapon into your house. The only way I would know that this is not normal behavior is by my casual observation of you before hand. I had no reason to suspect you before, because you gave no reason. Should I now ignore the fact that you are doing something unusual because of my past observation?

My question would be, how does one become a suspected terrorist without some kind of observation of his activities?

Sammi79

07-07-13, 06:29 AM

The real problem with digital surveillance and profiling (for whatever reason) is the potential for wildly inaccurate profiles being linked to identities. For instance, since I have never given facebook anything other than my real name and gender, they are constantly asking where I live, where I work etc. and making guesses based upon my use of their product. I signed in in London, or Liverpool, or Penzance because I happened to be working or visiting. For the next 6 months or so FB is like 'You live in Liverpool/London/Penzance, don't you?' :haha: obviously I let them think what they like.

Now while I find it vaguely amusing that they are selling this profile information which is largely fictitious to marketeers and advertisers whom in my view should do the decent thing and fall on their swords, there is a darker and more serious side to it. Because in some digital profile of me my gender is listed as male, I get a lot of email spam regarding penis enlargement, or bodybuilding etc... from companies I never heard of, and have no desire at all to justify their spam. Yes I have nothing to hide but you see what gets done with even the smallest tidbit of information you willingly gave them? One then has to consider the meta analysis of all of your digital behavior by which more could be gleaned than you would be willing to tell, or more pertinently the inaccurate nature of your profile (maybe someone got into my email or facebook account - maybe I let someone borrow my phone etc.) could lead someone to a false conclusion, and in the case of national security combined with new laws justified by terrorist activities the consequences of that for an innocent might be very very serious indeed.

Another concern that exacerbates the aforementioned risks is that the vast scale of this modern digital surveillance requires computer algorithms to sift and sort the vast majority of 'useless' information using key words, phrases etc. and you can't program a computer to adequately determine 'context' so again I see a huge risk for innocent individuals being flagged up for whatever investigation, or pre-emptive controls (cancelled visas, frozen bank accounts, incarceration etc.) are deemed an appropriate response by the governing authority. Not to mention the possibility of digital character assassination...

The 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' argument swings both ways here. If this ultra surveillance is purely for the national interest, I'm sure most people would be happy to divulge a certain amount of personal information (if only to avoid the otherwise likely inaccuracy of their profile) but the fact that it was being attempted in absolute secrecy suggests to me that this is not the whole story. Why is the Obama admin reacting so furiously, could it be there is something in the middle of all this they really don't want us to know? Nothing to hide, nothing to fear huh? :nope:

Seems to me that this Snowden chap is simply an American who still believes - you know, land of the free, home of the brave. Naive? certainly, he's young. Foolish? very possibly. Brave? no question. If I were American I would be proud to call him my countryman. The amount you folks go on about your rights and freedoms (something I sincerely admire) I am surprised at the rather limited support for this young, naive, and brave man. If for no other reason than he has shown us all that it is still possible for 1 man to stand up to a modern financial empire, with all its jaw dropping power. If he and people like him are censored or disappeared and you don't get the nod about what is actually going on you can bet before long that diminishing possibility will disappear forever.

The possible implications of what could be done with such a vast database of constantly updated profiles on a large majority of a population are mind boggling and sinister. It doesn't take much imagination either, what if your profile contains political leanings? local media can be manipulated to attempt to sway the general opinion in your locality. Ultimately it can be used to control your mind, in a way you'd have absolutely no defense against.

“The elite ruling class wants us asleep so we’ll remain a docile, apathetic herd of passive consumers, and non-participants in the true agenda of our governments–which is to keep us separate, and present an image of a world filled with unresolvable problems...Just stay asleep America, keep watching TV.”

Bill Hicks - from his deathbed.

Wolferz

07-07-13, 07:06 AM

Bravo sammi,
You couldn't have made the situation any more clear and concise than that.:up:
The powers that be want Snowden because he noticed they were wearing their belt quite loose and he snuck up and pantsed them.:haha:
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/Wolferz_2007/balls-george-washington.jpg

Daddy no likey!

Skybird

07-07-13, 07:08 AM

Didn't I say one should not be surprised?

LINK: Snowden: "NSA in bed with the Germans" (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-accuses-germany-of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html)

And it explains why the German government is so very quite and mild in criticising the Americans.

I personally strongly believe in an action principle based on reciprocity. The German government treats our people like enemies, and the US government treats us as enemies. Enemies that we are being treated as we therefore should turn against both and send them to hell.

Its all rotten, stinking mess, ideal basis for evergrowing corruption and monopolism, and gropwing totalitarianism. You cannot have both, state and governments, AND freedom. You have to make a choice. The first guarantees the destruction of freedom, the latter holds the risk of failing in securing freedom. I chose the chance despite the risks, and decide against guaranteed subjugation and slavery. A small or uncertain chance is more than no chance at all.

Mittelwaechter

07-07-13, 08:19 AM

Obviously not all terrorist communication will be discovered. Does this mean we give the stupid, careless and amateur ones a free hand?

Yup! Like we do with speed limit enforcement, inspections of food manufacturers, controlling suspects for drug posession, check ups for driving drunk, controlling weapons trade by controlling weapons traders...

It's a matter of adequacy.
Terror is latin "to scare", "to daunt", "to intimidate".
Don't fight terror with terror. Don't become what you want to fight. Don't terrorize those you say you want to protect from terror.

I would hope not. Being observed does not make you a suspect. In some ways we are all under observation and have been all along. Our parents, our teachers and our friends observe us in a non malicious way. They can't help it. Here's an example. You and I are neighbours. We see each other often and say hello. I can't do this without observing you. It is a casual thing, but I can't help noticing things about you. You are a normal person. Then one day when arriving at our homes at the same time I notice you carrying an automatic weapon into your house. The only way I would know that this is not normal behavior is by my casual observation of you before hand. I had no reason to suspect you before, because you gave no reason. Should I now ignore the fact that you are doing something unusual because of my past observation?

My question would be, how does one become a suspected terrorist without some kind of observation of his activities?It's a fair game you describe, neighbour. I watch you too. I have a curtain to keep your eyes out of my bedroom as you have one. I trust you to be a normal person, until I observe something strange.

We are under fair social control. No problem.

But would you consider it strange, if I hire five guys to observe you and your family 24/7? They follow you to work and check your mail. They watch you eating and reading, noting every single bit of information and report it to me. They film you while drinking a beer and while having fun with your wife - documenting some strange practices. How about that?

I don't want a group of invisible black suits noting our behaviour, reporting... - you know it.

Your last question? I know you'll insist on an answer. ;)

It's the job of the police. They try to care for our security.
But we don't have a police officer for every citizen to ensure our well behaviour and I think that's ok.
You - my neighbour - are entitled to report any suspicious behaviour on my side to the police, to let them or a prosecutor decide if any measures are to be taken.
This is police state enough.

Our privacy is our only resort of a kind of - "freedom". Do you want us to be totally enslaved?
We are said to be free, but that's nonsense. We are phlegmatic dreamers caught in our daily routine.
Who tries to move will feel the chains.

Jimbuna

07-07-13, 10:58 AM

Two of the most important phrases a man needs in a relationship is

I love you
I am sorry

However, never never use them together "I am sorry that I love you". It does not work out well. :oops::D

Aye that :)

Nicolas

07-07-13, 11:00 AM

The authorities not even show therye face about this it seems, what, is because is a president indian looking from south america and he don't deserve respect? maybe they can brake international law from time to time if is really needed, they are not going to do it again for a while now anyway.

If the vienna convention law about flights is like the Bolivian minister said, what happens now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_1L4gOEw8

HundertzehnGustav

07-07-13, 01:08 PM

There are allways those, who obey orders of any superior. And there are allways those who doubt and challenge the superiors to order.
These are obedient and submissive, those are self-determined and free - at least up to a certain degree.

Think! This is the task of our generation.

Thank you.

u crank

07-07-13, 01:31 PM

But would you consider it strange, if I hire five guys to observe you and your family 24/7? They follow you to work and check your mail. They watch you eating and reading, noting every single bit of information and report it to me. They film you while drinking a beer and while having fun with your wife - documenting some strange practices. How about that?

Yes, I would consider it strange. I would consider it illegal. I have to ask more questions though, if you don't mind. Is this being done to you right now? Is there any reason why this would be taking place? Is there any way that you can confirm that it is being done? Is it being done to all the citizens where you live? Can anyone say for sure that they are being watched? I don't know where you live, but if all this is true, then, yes you have a problem. And my sympathy.

I live on the east coast of Canada. I am almost certain that this is not being done to me. I can't say for sure, but if it is, I guess they're wasting their time.

It's the job of the police. They try to care for our security.
But we don't have a police officer for every citizen to ensure our well behaviour and I think that's ok.
You - my neighbour - are entitled to report any suspicious behaviour on my side to the police, to let them or a prosecutor decide if any measures are to be taken.
This is police state enough.

To a certain extent that is right. It is the role of local police forces to protect people and property. I doubt very much though that local police forces have the training or the means to detect and track terrorists. Most countries have organizations to do just that. My guess is that these people are using every means possible to prevent the citizens of their countries from being harmed by people who would like to do just that. Some people don't care for that kind of 'protection', but others are probably grateful that they have been spared. The 40,000 people who attended the Canada Day celebration at the British Columbia Legislature in Victoria are likely amongst that group. I know that if I had been there with my family, I would be very grateful.

Our privacy is our only resort of a kind of - "freedom". Do you want us to be totally enslaved?

Depends on what you consider freedom to be. Depends on how you think you are enslaved. I think that those are questions with an almost unlimited number of answers.

Nicolas

07-07-13, 02:43 PM

Intelligence , police, etc. need to do their job focused in some sort of objective, not see and know everyone bussiness. Anyway even if the CIA have a total survelliance do you think is going to help the government to make better decisions? no.

Mittelwaechter

07-07-13, 02:51 PM

You would consider my neighbourhood surveillance on you to be illegal. :up:
Why do you consider the surveillance of the state apparatus on you to be legal?
Did you vote for this? Did you think carefully about the consequences? Or do you support it, because you're in fear for your life or the lives of your beloved ones? Fear is a bad advisor.

Your state is collecting all the information about you - over years - to create a profile stating your fears, your dreams, your political, sexual or consume preferences, your health state, your location, your phone number, your friends and networks, your job, income and credit worthiness, your intellectual niveau, your potential to think on your own, your hobbies etc.
This profile enables them to sort you and to predict your intentions and actions.
It enables them to isolate you, to discredit you, to horrify you, to ruin your life.
It enables them to control you, your perception and your motivation.

They do it on a national or ideological (western) level right now, but they want to evolve.

Google is able to show you personalized advertising, based on their collection of your interests - their profile of you.

Where is the difference between advertising and other kind of information?
Personalized political information to motivate you on a personal level to act, to support, to attack, to oppose, to relax, to fear...
It's a matter of available data and control.

Fear is a bad advisor they say.

Your communication and behaviour protocol is saved. If not by your own Canadian institutions - because it would be against the law to spy on Canadian citizens for your authorities - then by the foreign intelligence services of the other four big eyes (US, GB, Canada, Australia, New Zealand)
http://www.news.com.au/technology/uk-spying-more-extensive-than-in-us/story-e6frfro0-1226667900434

They exchange their knowledge - their data - and don't break directly the national law of all participating members. Clever uh?

Are we spied on? Yes! You in Canada or me in Europe - it doesn't matter. Our data is collected.
Sorry for any desillusion on your side.

They fear the internet, because it is the tool for us slaves to communicate beside the controlled communication - this interpreted news - approved by our masters.
Imagine the slaves want to change the masters system. And someone offers to identify the ringleaders - the real ones and the potential ones, where they live and how to find them.
How to discredit them, what secrets they have, how to place a corpse into their basements - or a child pornography picture on their computers - simply how to ruin their lives.
Or even where to find the best spot to get totally rid of them. After work they like jogging in the park...

All necessary information is gathered and saved and only waits for examination.

Remember - the politicians are not our masters. They are foremen controlled by our master. They fear our masters classical media, because the media is the masters tool to control the foremen too. They are bought or dependant and the master knows their black spots on their apparent shiny white vests.

Our masters fear us slaves to become smart, because we will start to challenge his domination. It happened before and our master is well aware of this. But we slaves are not educated enough in relevant numbers to free ourselves right now.

The Arabian slaves are a step further it seems. They have additional motivation (hunger, inflation, sort of political oppression).
But they don't fight their masters, they fight their elected foremen. The masters may have been unhappy with the new foremen and may have cared for discontent amongst the slaves.
At least our masters see the new slaves communication in action.

The police forces are a masters tool to protect his property and to rule and regulate us slaves. They are entitled to keep the status quo by all means. Enslaved slaves and dominant masters - under the masters law.
This law is not neutral.
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal bread." Anatole France

And the masters still deal with the laws and regulations to their own liking.
You shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not desire anything that is you neighbour's. But if the master feels to kill, steal or desire some neighbours property he sends some slaves to fight, kill and die for. If a slave tries to flee this action, because he believes it's wrong to kill, he will be shot by some masters tools. Funny uh?

If our masters wouldn't send slaves to kill some other masters and their slaves, there would be no terror to be feared at our shacks. Live and let live. But our masters greed is a huge motivator...

It's all about control and regaining control.
It's all about who is enabled to tell who "the truth".

u crank

07-07-13, 06:30 PM

You would consider my neighbourhood surveillance on you to be illegal. :up:
Why do you consider the surveillance of the state apparatus on you to be legal?

I didn't say it was. I think what I am saying is that the states surveillance of potential mass murderers is. Big difference.

Did you vote for this? Did you think carefully about the consequences? Or do you support it, because you're in fear for your life or the lives of your beloved ones? Fear is a bad advisor.

It hardly matters if I support it or not. They are going to do it anyway. Have you been able to stop them? If not, why not. I get the feeling that you think I am in favour of unrestricted surveillance by governments. I am not. I would simply ask, what do you think you can do about it?

How I feel about the whole situation is this.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2080573&postcount=10

Thank you Oberon, I could not have said it any better. Especially the last line.

No matter what happens now, it's going to carry on, the public has no say in the matter, it never has and it never will. Everything else is just theatre.

For the most part man has paid a price for technology. Cars, trucks and planes make life easier but they are polluting our planet. We can kill much more effectively and from much greater distances than in the past. So it is with the cyber world. There is a price to pay. You posted this quote by Brzezinski, made more than 40 years ago.

“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values (of Liberty). Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”

Why so surprised when it is coming true.

If someone wants to watch me, profile me, whatever. Let them. I could care less. I haven't lost any sleep over it yet. My question to you is are you willing to give up your part of cyberspace to feel safe. No internet connection, no smart phone, nothing. It's an easy way out. Stay in your home, draw the curtains.

Fear is a bad advisor they say.

Fear can lead to unreasonable paranoia. I'm not interested in that game. I won't play it.

Sammi79

07-07-13, 08:54 PM

For the most part man has paid a price for technology. Cars, trucks and planes make life easier but they are polluting our planet. We can kill much more effectively and from much greater distances than in the past. So it is with the cyber world. There is a price to pay. You posted this quote by Brzezinski, made more than 40 years ago.

“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values (of Liberty). Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”Why so surprised when it is coming true.

If someone wants to watch me, profile me, whatever. Let them. I could care less. I haven't lost any sleep over it yet. My question to you is are you willing to give up your part of cyberspace to feel safe. No internet connection, no smart phone, nothing. It's an easy way out. Stay in your home, draw the curtains.

Fear can lead to unreasonable paranoia. I'm not interested in that game. I won't play it.

I agree with you here but not completely, Brzesinski's quote is the unlikely extreme, the black of the black and white false dilemma. The problems that will prevent this scenario being absolutely true are the potential inaccurate profiles that can not be avoided as there is no way of knowing (digitally speaking) that it is actually me making those calls or posting on forums etc. Phones are shared, computers are shared. People like me purposely put humorous (to me at least) fiction where websites ask for personal information if allowed, or none at all. I encourage everyone I meet or know to not put any more personal information than is absolutely necessary into any type of device, and I am done with smartphones, what's the point? (I try to get people to see this too)

The unlikely white extreme? well that's a few thousand years ago now I think.

And yes there is nothing I actually need to have a smartphone nor networked computer in my house for, should things really start evolving along those blackened lines. I like single player games :D and I don't watch TV :hmph:

Spiced_Rum

07-08-13, 03:25 AM

The problems that will prevent this scenario being absolutely true are the potential inaccurate profiles that can not be avoided as there is no way of knowing (digitally speaking) that it is actually me making those calls or posting on forums etc. Phones are shared, computers are shared.

In the paranoid world (that it appears some posting here may inhabit) once under surveillance they [insert government, corporation or secret cabal of your choice] will have your voice characteristics on digitized database and will instantly identify the person on the phone, and your syntax and typing style on the keyboard will also be analyzed. No escaping Big Brother.:/\\k:

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 06:08 AM

I'm really disappointed to learn that you accept your masters voice, his whip and his status.
You are obedient and submissive, you have arranged yourself with the situation and you can't even think of a possibility to change it. You have been indoctrinated for too long without understanding you are indoctrinated. Your master has told you you are free and special, you live the dream, you would be a fool if you would want to change anything and that the majotity is with this system. You feel helpless and without a choice.

Please check the East German history for their masters dealings, for the surveillance and the sissors it created in their brains. Learn how they managed to overcome the system.

You may be aware of the GESTAPO, this secret police force of the Third Reich. They were totally legal within the system, they only did their job and they were adorable efficient. They observed the people for certain attributes and came after them.

Hitler (one of the masters of that system) and his friends ordered the attributes to be searched for. It was not the peoples choice to check these attributes for legality. Everything was declared secret.

But the hunt for the jews was public. They were this terroristic, communistic, subversive enemy trying to destroy the lovingly, noble and bright German way of living.
The media was totally controlled by the government, no critical articles were possible.
The perception of the truth was only through the Nazi controlled eyes.

The western world is running in the same trap the Germans did before, initiated, protected and led by the US this time.
Fascism is defined by its inventor Mussolini as the fusion of state and big capital.
Nazi-Germany, Fascist-Italy or Spain were commanded by politicians addicted to public attention. The economy, the big capitalists around the globe, made some nice money but they were not taking charge.

Today this neo-fascistic szenario isn't led by politicians, it is led by the big capital.
They conquered the command by money, influence and lobbyism.
They screw out the poiliticians and the publics consent with a mixture of fear, bribe, control over the media, threats of the loss of jobs etc.
They stay in the dark, they try to hide undetected behind the politicians.
They are not interested in public attention.
They are the puppet masters who control the politicians, the media and the peoples perception. They control our motivation to act for or against their system.

If we are not willing to recognize and change this system - the danger it breeds for all of us - there is no noble western army of the free left to help us get rid of this system.
We will be enslaved forever und under control of these capitalist masters who sort us, manipulate us and silence us they think fit.

We need an act of cognition. We need better education and we urgently need to learn from history. We must fight this slow and hidden abolition of our rights - or better privileges. We must solidarize and gain confidence to be able to overcome this tyranny of the puppet masters.

If we fail, maybe the Chinese have to be the next bright light of freedom and justice.
They may free us by force, bombs and missiles and teach us to be aware of the signs of any puppet masters and their dark deeds.
Or they show us that cooperation on eye level is the way to go. Cooperation is the key to evolution.

Spiced_Rum

07-08-13, 06:20 AM

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 07:24 AM

My Master is the wind, and my Mistress is the sea. I have the freedom to sail by their grace; I beseech them in the storm and thank them in the calm. All I ask is a safe anchorage, a bottle of rum, and a hammock under starlight. Arrgh! :arrgh!:

:up:

I can't change my situation, I'm pawn in the hands of nature - my master.
I've learned to love what I do - my master let's me work for him.
I am free to act under natures control - my masters control.
I ask servile for a change under mistreatment - please don't hurt me, master. I'll obey.
I am relaxed while everything seems to be straight - thank you master, great job you do.
(I'm satisfied with my choice of breakfast cereals - I'm happy my master cares for my survival.)
Edit: I'm easily to be satisfied: just a dry place to sleep, some alcohol to ease my pain and the freedom to dream of a better world is way enough.

Skybird

07-08-13, 09:55 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?_r=0

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 10:13 AM

bp;dr = behind paywall; didn't read

In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage, and cyber attacks, officials say.

Skybird

07-08-13, 10:16 AM

Free for me, and I have not even subscribed. :hmmm:

Try here: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/us-spaehaffaere-fisa-geheimgericht-verschafft-nsa-mehr-macht-a-909998.html and then use the first, red printed, underlined link in the first paragraph that reads >geht die "New York Times"<

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 10:29 AM

Again...

http://abload.de/img/loginnyt99sae.jpg

Maybe I'm already censored on a personal level?

Edit: Wait - cookie and NoScript may be the problem.

Edit2: Yup - now it works...

Edit3: Well - it fits absolutly into the scheme.

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 01:22 PM

Some consequences of power and control over certain attributes?

http://rt.com/usa/california-prison-sterilized-inmates-782/

Catfish

07-08-13, 02:21 PM

Well what i don't get is that freedom is the highest value, unless the secret FISA court and NSA take it away. Then even Big brother to the ten seems to be no problem for any 'free' person.
:-?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?_r=1&

edit ah seems same link as above sorry - will let it stand since it is a direct link working (for me at least)

Mittelwaechter

07-08-13, 02:54 PM

Spiced_Rum

07-08-13, 04:00 PM

What is freedom?

Freedom means to be in control over your situation, to be in control over your life, your destiny, your perception, your alternatives...
Freedom means to be in control over whom to fight and whom to support, whom to listen and whom to ignore, whom to love and whom to distrust.

Freedom means to be in control!

Those who are in control are free. Those who are under control are not.

By the way - in a deomcracy the people control the government. What is this surveillance system called we live in?

Freedom is whatever you want it to be. You do not always get to choose who to fight, often you fight to defend yourself from threats both within and without.

I did not get to choose to be born, or to whom, or where, or when. As a child I had no real freedom of choice and was not in control, my family was my government and so I lived under a benign dictatorship (which was happy and loving) and yet I lived in freedom. :woot: At 18 I could vote but of course have to live under laws so do not have freedom.

Political correctness and newspeak has taken away my control to choose what I can say, therefore, I have no control and no longer have freedom.:down:

In a democracy we vote for a government to control us, choosing the best suited to our ideals / viewpoint. Some will be pleased and others disappointed with the result. You cannot please all the people all of the time. :hmmm:

I choose the surveillance, it is my freedom of choice and sustains the freedom I want. :yeah:

Jimbuna

07-08-13, 04:11 PM

Freedom is bliss...peace and tranquility.

u crank

07-08-13, 04:12 PM

I'm really disappointed to learn that you accept your masters voice, his whip and his status.

:har:

What do you think you know about me? How could you know?

You feel helpless and without a choice.

No I don't.

You are obedient and submissive, you have arranged yourself with the situation and you can't even think of a possibility to change it.

No I'm not.

I do not have a Twitter or Facebook account. I have only made one purchase on line. Ever. I don't have a smart phone. Cheap Nokia for emergencies only. My only e-mail activity is with SubSim. Hi Neal.:salute: My on line activity is minimal. Tell me again why I should be afraid of these guys in black suits?

If we are not willing to recognize and change this system - the danger it breeds for all of us - there is no noble western army of the free left to help us get rid of this system.
We will be enslaved forever und under control of these capitalist masters who sort us, manipulate us and silence us they think fit.

I have asked you before. I'll ask again. What specifically are you going to do about it. Rhetoric is cheap and abundant. What's the plan? Can you give us even a hint of what you think you can do about this situation?

An even better question is what system you plan to replace the 'capitalist masters' with. Meet the new boss....same as the old boss.

We need an act of cognition. We need better education and we urgently need to learn from history. We must fight this slow and hidden abolition of our rights - or better privileges. We must solidarize and gain confidence to be able to overcome this tyranny of the puppet masters.

Again great rhetoric. Well said. I have heard this same stuff all of my adult life. I have never seen the people who say this stuff do anything but say stuff.

Chinese have to be the next bright light of freedom and justice.

You're kidding right.

What is freedom?

Freedom means to be in control over your situation, to be in control over your life, your destiny, your perception, your alternatives...
Freedom means to be in control over whom to fight and whom to support, whom to listen and whom to ignore, whom to love and whom to distrust.

Freedom means to be in control!

Those who are in control are free. Those who are under control are not.

History and experience show that those who are in control, control others to be in control.

August

07-08-13, 04:29 PM

I do not have a Twitter or Facebook account. I have only made one purchase on line. Ever. I don't have a smart phone. Cheap Nokia for emergencies only. My only e-mail activity is with SubSim. Hi Neal.:salute: My on line activity is minimal. Tell me again why I should be afraid of these guys in black suits?

Possibly because all those things you mention are increasingly at odds with the rest of society. In the age of metadata the lack of profile information might just warrant a closer look to see what you're trying to hide... :yep:

u crank

07-08-13, 04:43 PM

Possibly because all those things you mention are increasingly at odds with the rest of society. In the age of metadata the lack of profile information might just warrant a closer look to see what you're trying to hide... :yep:

Well August, I won't be alone. I know lots of people my age who are even less of an invisible dot in cyber space. :O:

August

07-08-13, 05:04 PM

Well August, I won't be alone. I know lots of people my age who are even less of an invisible dot in cyber space. :O:

I know lots of people our age that are like that as well, heck i'm like that. But we're a diminishing number. That kind of behavior might be more suspicious in a younger person.

Mittelwaechter

07-09-13, 11:28 AM

Uuuh - No Twitter or Facebook account?
You don't use email?
Ok, that changes everything. Not.

Do you use a cell phone?
Sorry, but you're tracked.
They know your location and they know your daily trail. They know your social group - all the people you are connected with by phone.
Some of the phone numbers may show your employer, your couch doctor, your phone sex partner...
They record your voice and save it. If you have a smartphone they are able to check your data, documents and your pictures. They are able to use it as a live bugging device.

Do you surf online?
They track your IP and the sites you view. They track the sites you comment on and on what topics.
They have certain indicators for your political prefeence as for your hobbies, religion, intellectuality...
They realize your wife is online, because she may have different interests at Amazon or Ebay, fashion or cooking, lecture or child management.
They track your keystroke speed to identify you personally, your ortographic mistakes differ from your wifes ones.
They can leave a little trojan horse at your computer to check anything you do with it.
They can conquer your built in microphone and your webcam to watch you live.

Do you watch TV over cable?
They see what you see. They know your interests and the news you are aware of.
They track the ads you consume and cross-check it with your credit card.

Do you use a credit card?
They check what you pay with it. They check if you buy cigarettes and alcohol, if you support WikiLeaks or if you transfer money to the democrats.
These are just a few examples. They check whatever you pay with it and add it to your profile.

This is just an excerpt of their possibilities.

All the collected data feeds a profile to make you glassy. Over time it gets more and more reliable and accurate.
They use it for whatever they want it to use.

I.e. they sell this data to your insurance. Your cigarettes and alcohol consume will raise your rates.
Your health ensurance will lower the support, due to your unhealthy life style.

They can use it to manipulate you or to discredit you. You have no control over it.

It is enough to tell us, they only track 10% of the people at a time, 90% are unobserved at any moment.
The overwhelming majority acts to their liking. It's what we have right now. The police doesn't check everybody, but spot checks us.

This total surveillance will change the way we live, the way our children live. It will shorten the list of freedoms we are granted even more.
The bill of rights was elaborated to protect the individual from the state.

Again: think!

... and read Orwell's 1984. - Free! http://archive.org/details/ost-english-1984-george-orwell-1937-dystopia

What do I do to change this mess?

You may realize I try to open your eyes, to make you aware of a problem. I try to find support.
I am one of the 250 people in my community who is on the streets, demonstrating for our rights of privacy.
I provided an idea to change the situation.

You doubt there is a way to change this horror. You don't want to support it but you argument to support it.
You signed your capitulation, but you tell me you don't really feel happy with it. Well - that's a way to go.

Spiced_Rum

07-09-13, 11:36 AM

I try to find support.
I am one of the 250 people in my community who is on the streets, demonstrating for our rights of privacy.
I provided an idea to change the situation.

Cool, can you start with banning the new Google glasses which are total surveillance with no control, and breach privacy and freedom of the individual. Where is all that data going, and who controls it.

Skybird

07-09-13, 01:32 PM

BossMark

07-09-13, 01:43 PM

Have they caught this muppet yet or his he still play hide and seek

Mittelwaechter

07-09-13, 01:44 PM

Cool, can you start with banning the new Google glasses which are total surveillance with no control, and breach privacy and freedom of the individual. Where is all that data going, and who controls it.

Sorry, but I'm busy doing everything. :D

What is this "you do it!"?

I'm not in control and I still try to convince other people we have a problem.
I will probably never be in control to change these things. It isn't even the job of one person.
Don't expect me to use violence. Don't expect me to kill the masters. Don't expect anyone to do this.

We have to solidarize to change the system that rules us.
We may deny our support to this system. Simple stop voting.
We can stop supporting our masters directly.
We are close to them, we work for them. We know them. We should public their names and their deeds.

If 80% of the people do not vote, do not support the system, if they do not legalize it, the masters have a problem.
As I said we may put some demarchy into our democratic procedures.
It would enable us to force laws in our favour.

We could use civil resistance.
We could deny to drive their cars, to clean their pools, to carry their mail, to serve them food, to sell them food, to teach their children... - imagine our possibilities.

No one person can change it. This one person would be destroyed immediately by the power they have.
We must unite and stand together. We must be the majority to have a chance for change.

I'm with you with this google glass calamity. The next step into the total horror.
If we do not resist, we are lost.

It is late and we are losing ground.
But there are too many people not aware of it.
They probably only realize the problem, when they get directly hit.
Then they will wonder how it happened, how it was possible at all...

The rich class is on a war against us.

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Warren Buffett

What more do we need to realize we have a problem?

Jimbuna

07-09-13, 02:13 PM

Have they caught this muppet yet or his he still play hide and seek

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/snowden-accepts-venezuela-asylum-offer-russian-lawmaker-1.316209

Catfish

07-09-13, 02:40 PM

Hello Skybird,
you may be aware that there is no peace treaty with Germany since 1945. So any occupation is perfectly ok by law. Another consequence is that the 'BRD' is not the 'Rechtsnachfolger' (successor by law?) of the German Reich, but an interim government, until a real peace treaty will be signed.
But why should anyone, it is so convenient this way.
:hmm2:

Nicolas

07-09-13, 05:55 PM

This video is not funny at all :-?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hJTisovvjc

u crank

07-09-13, 06:13 PM

Do you use a cell phone?

Do you surf online?

Do you watch TV over cable?

Do you use a credit card?

This is just an excerpt of their possibilities.

They can use it to manipulate you or to discredit you. You have no control over it.

I think that everybody is aware of this possibility. It's not a new revelation. The question is why should I care? What exactly is going to happen to me? Are the black suits gonna kick in my door some dark and rainy night and haul me off to a secret location. Question me as to why I call my wife and ask her what's for supper? Demand to know why I watch hockey on TV? And what the heck is this SubSim outfit? Please tell me exactly what I have to be afraid of?

On the other hand if you or any one else is doing something that they might find interesting, well that's your problem. Don't ask me to judge because I might agree with them.

This total surveillance will change the way we live, the way our children live. It will shorten the list of freedoms we are granted even more.
The bill of rights was elaborated to protect the individual from the state.

Evolution?

I get the feeling that some people think this whole rich vs poor class war is a recent event.

Again: think!
... and read Orwell's 1984. - Free! http://archive.org/details/ost-english-1984-george-orwell-1937-dystopia

Read it, probably before you were born. :O:

What do I do to change this mess?

You may realize I try to open your eyes, to make you aware of a problem. I try to find support.
I am one of the 250 people in my community who is on the streets, demonstrating for our rights of privacy.
I provided an idea to change the situation.

Good for you and the best of luck. And stay safe.

There seem to be two proponents to this problem. One, they, who ever they are, and two the ever increasing thirst for new and better technology.

They are not going to stop. They always want more. More money, more power, more control. That's not a recent development. It has always been like that. The methods and the actors have changed but it's the same old movie.

The other part of the problem is modern man's ever increasing demand for new toys. You see where this is going right? Try, even suggest, to this texting, facebooking generation to give it up. Not a chance.

It's the perfect storm.

You doubt there is a way to change this horror. You don't want to support it but you argument to support it.

I don't argue to support it. I don't support it. I discuss to see the reality of the situation and to present a point of view. I respect your point of view. There are lots of things in this present age I do not like or support. But I know they won't change. Human nature is unchanged.

You signed your capitulation, but you tell me you don't really feel happy with it. Well - that's a way to go.

It's not quite like that. Capitulation is a strong word.

But I refuse to live in fear.

Dan D

07-09-13, 07:10 PM

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/historiker-foschepoth-ueber-us-ueberwachung-die-nsa-darf-in-deutschland-alles-machen-1.1717216

In German.

Okay, the Sueddeutsche Zeitung is an extremely leftleaning propaganda paper, but still...["they have a point here"]

Do you have a screw loose?:timeout:
That paper is at best or worst middle-class ("bourgeois") left-leaning, if anything. You could probably call it "militant publication of the middle class", but still that does not make your argument better. It is just distracting.
Quote from Catfish:
"Hello Skybird,
you may be aware that there is no peace treaty with Germany since 1945. So any occupation is perfectly ok by law. Another consequence is that the 'BRD' is not the 'Rechtsnachfolger' (successor by law?) of the German Reich, but an interim government, until a real peace treaty will be signed.
But why should anyone, it is so convenient this way."
- - - - -
That "peace treaty" thingy is obsolete. Germany and the 4 Allies (USSR, UK, France, US) made the the "2 plus 4" treaty instead, the 4 Allies and the 2 Germanies (West and East Germany), which led to the re- unification of Germany. That was the formal end of WW II with regard to Germany. That treaty is also called: "Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany" in the English- speaking world, in German " 2 plus 4 Vertrag",
To use the term "BRD" is political incorrect:arrgh!:, because that is what the "GDR" aka East-Germany used to call West-Germany which did not like that.
So, "no occupation [of Germany] is okay by law". That was the idea behind the "Treaty on the Final settlement with regard to Germany", USSR troops leaving the Eastern parts of Germany, and then the task to define a sovereign German state with which all involved could live with. France and Britain had concerns, the USSR and the US not so much.
And, Western Germany and now the "United Germany" always claimed to be the legal successor of the "German Reich" which also involves paying compensation for the Nazi crimes of the "Third Reich" while "East-Germany" called the "Wall" the "Anti-Fascist Protection Wall" because all Nazis had "moved" to West-Germany "after the war" in their understanding:woot:

Ducimus

07-09-13, 07:29 PM

I know i'm jumping into this out of nowhere, but I can't help myself.

I think that everybody is aware of this possibility. It's not a new revelation. The question is why should I care? What exactly is going to happen to me? Are the black suits gonna kick in my door some dark and rainy night and haul me off to a secret location.

First, I have to ask, are you an American? If not, then yeah, why should you care? If i wasn't an American, I could probably care less. However, if you are an American, then you should care - greatly, because this is your home. It's where you, and everything you love in life resides. Would you not defend your home? I dare say you would.

This whole NSA/Prism thing is decidely against the founding principles of our country, is over reaching, and a violation of our fourth amendment rights. While it may not directly effect you in your day to day life, it can (and if left unchecked.. WILL) snowball into something bigger, larger, and far far uglier. Something your descendants of tomorrow will have to deal with, at a much larger, harsher, and uglier level because of the inactions, and complacency of today. I don't know about you, but I strongly desire to see my descendants life with as much freedom and liberty as I did when I was born. I do not want to see my future children and grandchildren live under what can only be called an oppressive thumb.

They are not going to stop. They always want more. More money, more power, more control. That's not a recent development. It has always been like that. The methods and the actors have changed but it's the same old movie.

At least you realize the problem. Human nature does not change, and is why the framers of the United States did so in the manner in which they did. We have our rights laid out, but if we do not defend them, we WILL lose them. Surely you must realize this.

But I refuse to live in fear.
I refuse to live in fear as well. In fact, I reject all these laws and such passed since the Trade Towers collapsed. I have always felt that we have overreacted, and by overreacting, we gave the terrorist exactly what they wanted. We allowed them, (and our government) to draw us into two protracted conflicts, incur massive national debt, pass laws that are clear dangers to our liberties, etc etc. 911 has had far reaching consequences that achieved far more then Osama bin Laden could have ever have hoped for. Your damn right I refuse to live in fear, and I refuse to surrender ANY of my civil liberties because some Koran toting Rag Heads got a visit from "The good idea Fairy."

I also refuse to be a Subject.

As an aside, and to reiterate, if your not an American, disregard this entire post, as the issues I'm talking about are obviously not pertinent.

u crank

07-09-13, 07:56 PM

First, I have to ask, are you an American?

Canadian. And happy about it.:D

I have always felt that we have overreacted, and by overreacting, we gave the terrorist exactly what they wanted. We allowed them, (and our government) to draw us into two protracted conflicts, incur massive national debt, pass laws that are clear dangers to our liberties, etc etc. 911 has had far reaching consequences that achieved far more then Osama bin Laden could have ever have hoped for. Your damn right I refuse to live in fear, and I refuse to surrender ANY of my civil liberties because some Koran toting Rag Heads got a visit from "The good idea Fairy."

I definitely agree with that assessment. We got sucked into Afghanistan as well and I thought it was a huge mistake. The fallout from those two wars will last a long time and for what? :nope:

HundertzehnGustav

07-10-13, 01:18 AM

they got exactly what they wanted.
an america with empty pockets, and many dead US soldiers. The West that realizes it burns its hands in the middle east, and slowly but surely withdraws from the scene.

These wars are long wars. patient wars. longer than the 8 years of an american/european/western president has to do anything.

Skybird

07-10-13, 05:37 AM

Do you have a screw loose?:timeout:
That paper is at best or worst middle-class ("bourgeois") left-leaning, if anything. You could probably call it "militant publication of the middle class", but still that does not make your argument better. It is just distracting.

I mean what I say. The SZ frequently spills some of the most malicious farleft leaning stuff that equals, sometimes even exceeds the left matter coming from the TAZ, and thus is the favourite newspaper of the leftist intelligenzia in Germany, pedagogues, teachers, psychologists, feuilletonists. Printing of antisemitic stuff, heavily biased anti-Israeli, pro-Arab, anti-American stuff is also common, as is support for socialist ideas, ultra-feminism/genderism, and support for an as-socialistic-as-possible European redistribution schemes and EU central government as possible.

Among the major national newspapers in Germany, it for sure is the by far most left-leaning together with TAZ, it just dresses itself slightly different. TAZ is for the more simple and ordinary people, whereas SZ acts as if representing a better educated intelligenzia, a Times for the left upper class burgeoisie. And on some frequent themes it spills propaganda slogans and schemes that are as petrified and schematic as is the Prawda.

One of the worst newspapers I know. Biased, underhanded, manipulative, spiteful (schadenfroh), but always claiming to be above that, and being oh so upper class.

I usually read only in it when somebody sends me a link or a text in another source that refers to it.

TAZ is not much better, and FR trailing not so far behind.

If you ask me which is a really good newspaper in Germany: a really good one we have not, and when considering the internet versions only then pretty much all of them are indeed pretty bad. None that really is good. They sometimes have a good article, they have this or that good writer who ocasiuonally pops up, fires a flare and says "I'm here", then disappears again for a while. One swallow per week does not make a summer.

Variety in the itnernet does not really compensate for lacking quality, not amongst newspapers, since so many are copying form each other anyway, and jouranliostic research is not what it once was anymore. Blogs can offer some compensation (that'S why Brussel andn natioanl governments try so hard for legislation to regulate themn and strnagle them), but that stands and falls with the agenda of the blogger, whether he is a lobbyist for some side, or indeed tries best to use his reason and sanity. But internet newspapers: in Germany at least that is a sad story. More internet papers means more crap. It even goes down to technically bad writing manners, lacking orthography and no-news that cannot sink any lower in profanity. Not to mention the either heavily biased censorship in some papers or the lacking moderation in general when it comes to the comment function of newspapers. Terrible.

These are two examples for better blogs:

http://boess.welt.de/

http://freie.welt.de/

Mittelwaechter

07-10-13, 06:48 AM

This is the crux with our society.
Everybody just cares for himself, so everybody is cared for.

“Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.” Marie Curie
Understand the problem and act accordingly to get rid of that problem.

"Control your own destiny or someone else will." Jack Welch

Some hidden interest deceiving us is in control of our future and our destiny.
But we do not want to change our habbits, neither our attitude nor our apathy.
If we refuse to see the problem and refuse to fight it, we deserve this dystopia.

The black suits you are mocking me are not the state security police. Again - they are a comparison.
A visualization of the constant surveillance effort right next to us, the less noticable and less pushy equivalent.
But as long as these black suits are hidden in some sort of virtuality, we feel unmolested and are faintly aware of the problem.
They work to get you under control and keep you under control.

Evolution?
The destruction of the bill of rights and the installation of a total surveillance program are part of the same coin.
This is a man controlled process, to the advantage of a few and the disadvantage of the rest.

They - at least some of them - are here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-federal-reserve-cartel-the-eight-families/25080

The texting and facebooking generation should not give up their affinity to new technologies.
This technology enables education, it enables to share uncensored reality. We use it right now. This technology is not the problem.
We should care to grant a free use of this new technology, without any surveillance horror scenario.
The use of surveillance technology is a problem, it destroys the liberty our parents did die for.

The kiddies are playing with their new, cool gadgets, but as young adults they will make good use of it, if we teach them well.
This shows another problem: we are bad teachers, because too many of us don't understand the complex situation and technology.
Not only the senile stubborn, but the 40's upward. Those in responsibility for what and how to teach.
Who controls our education?

"It is the nature, and the advantage, of the strong that they can bring out the crucial questions and form a clear opinion about them.
The weak are always forced to decide between alternatives they have not chosen themselves." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Those in control don't have to send some security police to catch you any longer. They know everything about you.
Your perception is under control, your freedom is caged, your possibilities to act are zero. You are already imprisoned and under control.
If you stand up as a person for whatever reason, they are able to silence you, if they don't like your manner or what you have to say.

Even if you are with a minority you are a toy to their liking. They smile at you and happily tap your bottom.
You are free to choose between chocolate and bluberry, while you live in a cage.
There is a virtual tether around your neck, ready to strangle you in reality, and they control it.

They do what they want, make laws they like, rule you to taste, silence you if you protest and destroy you if you revolt.
You are free! There is no problem. Enjoy your life.

I'm tired to play your game any longer. You are a human and you can't change I've learned.
I wish you all the best.

Btw. there is no US, Canada, Europe, Morrocco, Asia etc anymore.
The internet is global, as the surveillance is. The problems of the leading powers spread to all of us and they are our problems, no matter where we are.
All of us under surveillance are under control.

Hawk66

07-10-13, 10:16 AM

Frankly, what is funny: there is one guy, which 'leaks' info every second day or so and almost nobody questions if what he writes and speaks is the truth or the full truth. It seems that it it proof enough that some major news magazines print it. So we rely here on a single source of information...is that clever ?

The whole discussion - especially in Germany - is in big parts naive and hysteric and shares many similarities of the Fukushima hysteria . We do not know the facts (or a fraction about it) ...but that does not prevent us to have already all the answers and gives us the right to do blaming on a full scale level.

Agencies like the NSA and BND have their shortcomings and in all big organizations - be it in the private sector or in the government - have 'bad' people on board, who might misuse their capabilities or being misused by 'bad' politicians . But that does not mean that it is fair to bring a whole organization in discredit.

How shall the people in the BND be motivated if they always get bashed by the German media and society- whose only interest is usually to write about this agency when a scandal happened.

It's the same as in the cold war: Either I have stationed those Pershing missiles, I spent a lot of money for the military and have the risk of a global war or I do not have this risk and have instead the risk of being controlled by a dictatorship or simply be overrun. I have to decide. I cannot have both.

Transferred to the situation today: Either I have agencies, which have the technical need to scan the internet traffic to do their job and I have the risk that this info is misused or I do not allow them to do so and have the risk that I loose my Early Warning capabilities with respect to attacks by hostile nations and non-government groups.

That the US has such a big advantage (almost a monopol) in IT, processing of big data in government agencies like the NSA and in big companies like Google did not happen by accident. This is the result of setting the priority in these technologies and attracting the smart guys in the sector . So, I cannot hear this whining of our politicians and (European) society anymore that there is not an alternative infrastructure in Europe - its simply their fault.

There is a very nice article here in a major German news magazine http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2013-07/abhoerskandal-snowden-freiheit-datenschutz (Header: Security is also a human right ), in which the author outlines the tension between security and privacy. Respect, because one thing is almost for sure: Until tonight he will get be flamed ...especially by those people who claim that "freedom of speech" would be very important.

So, the discussion we need is how much security (=power of government agencies) and how much privacy we want. But we have to discuss it by using facts - not by using ideologies or wishes, not by using guys like Snowden as heroes and not by insulting organizations and people working there we do not know apart from articles - published by the mass media.

Spiced_Rum

07-10-13, 10:40 AM

Agencies like the NSA and BND have their shortcomings and in all big organizations - be it in the private sector or in the government - have 'bad' people on board, who might misuse their capabilities or being misused by 'bad' politicians . But that does not mean that it is fair to bring a whole organization in discredit.

So, the discussion we need is how much security (=power of government agencies) and how much privacy we want. But we have to discuss it by using facts - not by using ideologies or wishes, not by using guys like Snowden as heroes and not by insulting organizations and people working there we do not know apart from articles - published by the mass media.

It is good to read a well written and balanced point of view. :up:
Of course, some may claim this is unbalanced because it does not support thier thoughts on the issue but I like it. :arrgh!:

07-10-13, 11:25 AM

HundertzehnGustav

07-10-13, 01:36 PM

Transferred to the situation today: Either I have agencies, which have the technical need to scan the internet traffic to do their job and I have the risk that this info is misused or I do not allow them to do so and have the risk that I loose my Early Warning capabilities with respect to attacks by hostile nations and non-government groups.

does not compute.
missiles are to deter enemies.

monitoring the net can also lead to the missiles being pointed towards its own population.

I do not thrust these agencies one gawd damm bit. nor a byte.
and you know what? they act without - et least periodically - reporting to the public what they do.

the public doesnt know wether they spend time on youporn or wether they are hacking into "enemy" bank accounts, stopping cold any attempts to finance bombings or what.

he who "does stuff" and doesnt tell me what he does... i aint walking a mile with that dude. how do i know he acts in MY interests?

and i can not "vote them out" of office. we are stuck with these agencies, their agendas and their interests.
they, as far as i can tell, do not work for the population. they work for the big business, for the Kings and nobles, for the rich.
For themselves.

not, never for average Joe.

and therefor what one average joe tells us, is more credible than what a million agent smiths DO NOT tell us. We simply can not know what side they are on.

Skybird

07-10-13, 04:24 PM

The security argument doe snot bite when espionage efforts are mainly undertaken for industrial espionage and reading he minds of "allied" countries' politicians.

And Americans in my opinion have an inbred handicap regarding data and technology, also regardingr relativey blind trust in their system's authorities and institutions: Americans have never made the experienc themselves how it is to live under an outspoken police dictatorship. Germans have had the Gestapo, and short after: the Stasi. Practically all European nations have had equivalent episodes to that, sometimes repeatedly, over just the last one hundred years.

That gives European instincts ringing alarm bells on states watching them, the far greater validity-by-experience, compared to American sleepiness regarding these issues.

u crank

07-10-13, 04:41 PM

The whole discussion - especially in Germany - is in big parts naive and hysteric and shares many similarities of the Fukushima hysteria . We do not know the facts (or a fraction about it) ...but that does not prevent us to have already all the answers and gives us the right to do blaming on a full scale level.

There seems to be a certain amount of hysteria and paranoia in this thread.

It's the same as in the cold war: Either I have stationed those Pershing missiles, I spent a lot of money for the military and have the risk of a global war or I do not have this risk and have instead the risk of being controlled by a dictatorship or simply be overrun. I have to decide. I cannot have both.

Transferred to the situation today: Either I have agencies, which have the technical need to scan the internet traffic to do their job and I have the risk that this info is misused or I do not allow them to do so and have the risk that I loose my Early Warning capabilities with respect to attacks by hostile nations and non-government groups.

Well put. Not the whole story but an important part of the story. Thank you.

So, the discussion we need is how much security (=power of government agencies) and how much privacy we want. But we have to discuss it by using facts - not by using ideologies or wishes, not by using guys like Snowden as heroes and not by insulting organizations and people working there we do not know apart from articles - published by the mass media.

Agreed. Apparently some want complete security and complete privacy.

I'm tired to play your game any longer. You are a human and you can't change I've learned.
I wish you all the best.

Yeah okay. No Más

Skybird

07-10-13, 08:22 PM

He who can read your data, also can alter, change, replace, manipulate your data.

Private industry, insurers, employers can have a multitude of reasons why they would want this.

August

07-10-13, 08:50 PM

He who can read your data, also can alter, change, replace, manipulate your data.

Private industry, insurers, employers can have a multitude of reasons why they would want this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Netposter1995.jpg

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU0NjA2NzIwOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNTExNTg4._V1_S Y317_CR1,0,214,317_.jpg

Mittelwaechter

07-11-13, 11:34 AM

Only tracking a cell phone for 6 months and merging it with public available data:

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-you-can-learn-from-phone-metadata-2013-7

Ducimus

07-11-13, 12:42 PM

Only tracking a cell phone for 6 months and merging it with public available data:

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-you-can-learn-from-phone-metadata-2013-7

Interesting, thanks.

Skybird

07-11-13, 03:10 PM

Just read that Russian intelligence services switched back from electronic communications to typewriters already some time ago. They now re-boost again even handwritten communications, I assume to avoid messages getting reconstructed from colour tapes or so.

No joke, serious. I do not know whether the move from typewriters to handwriting make sense, but abandoning electronic means of communications makes very much sense these days, at least for areas of sensible importance.

Dan D

07-12-13, 04:04 AM

I mean what I say. The SZ frequently spills some of the most malicious farleft leaning stuff.... that equals, sometimes even exceeds the left matter coming from the TAZ, and thus is the favourite newspaper of the leftist intelligenzia in Germany, pedagogues, teachers, psychologists, feuilletonists...

Never mind. I myself prefer reading the FAZ anyway because it has by far the best sports section.

On the topic: The U.S. to the Non-English Speaking World: We Spit on Your Privacy (http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2013/07/the-us-to-the-non-english-speaking-world-we-spit-on-your-privacy-.html#comments)

...U.S. law currently affords zero protection -- zero -- to the privacy rights of non-U.S. citizens located outside of the U.S. And it now appears the NSA has been ruthlessly exploiting this fact to hoover up millions of pieces of data on all other countries... "

"That the US government - in complete secrecy - is constructing a ubiquitous spying apparatus aimed not only at its own citizens, but all of the world's citizens, has profound consequences. It erodes, if not eliminates, the ability to use the internet with any remnant of privacy or personal security. It vests the US government with boundless power over those to whom it has no accountability. It permits allies of the US - including aggressively oppressive ones - to benefit from indiscriminate spying on their citizens' communications. It radically alters the balance of power between the US and ordinary citizens of the world. And it sends an unmistakable signal to the world that while the US very minimally values the privacy rights of Americans, it assigns zero value to the privacy of everyone else on the planet..."

TarJak

07-12-13, 06:57 AM

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/england-seek-answers-from-icc-after-video-review-decisions-go-australias-way-20130712-2ptqc.html

This doesn't surprise me, but it certainly makes me feel like we are just pawns in the US government's international game. Like we have been since we sidled up to them during WWII.

HundertzehnGustav

07-12-13, 08:04 AM

nothing new there.
we do not vote or pay taxes in the US, so....

"f** em"

thats what they say to the world.

the only worse situation is a non US Citizen visiting the US...
I bet they could, with an effort retrace your every step, where you bought what, train metro, bus, restaurant, mobile phone call...

you go to the US as a tourist... they stick their digital fing... errr PROBE up your rear end.

TarJak

07-12-13, 08:18 AM

Bend over at home too.

Ducimus

07-12-13, 08:21 AM

There are a good number of American's who do not agree with our government's actions. Just sayin'.

HundertzehnGustav

07-12-13, 08:43 AM

soopaman2

07-12-13, 09:19 AM

we just ACTIVELY sawed off our prime Minister for neglecting our secret service, not giving a dump about the Secret service doing what it wants, not caring about the secret service overstepping its rules, boundaries and responsabilities.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/regierungskrise-in-luxemburg-wer-ist-jean-claude-juncker/8485270.html

THE DAY i see people... american average Joe and Jane Doe's saw off the people that are leading this mess...

That day i will find my respect for the american population back.

I am sorry to say.
and i hope you gonna actively do something about it.

Till that day, i see the stars and stripes in the same corner as Lybia, Algeria, Iran, China, Chile and Russia.

Please, yanks, get moving, feet stomping.
because to your votes, wallets and rethoric they aint listening.

Heck of a way to tell a large amount of this board they are crap.

I think Europeans are freeloaders, who love us when we toss them money, but hate us in public to cater to its drooling populace, how about you useless bastards pay for your own military, and take more of the burden in NATO off of us, Europeans are leeches, and I lost all respect for them.

I hold them in the same regard as Islamic extremists, who relish our destruction, and the suffering of our people, but smile to our face, with a knife around the back.

Sucks to have it turned around, hmm?

Although painting in broad strokes is fun, but it is the sign of a crappy artist usually.:O:

HundertzehnGustav

07-12-13, 09:39 AM

Heck of a way to tell a large amount of this board they are crap.

that they dissappoint me would me a more accurate description of my feelings.
true.

Islamic extremists...
hold on, we share the same religion, christianity?!! at least that is what the stats say.
That europeans are happy about your pain and the harsh times that you face/ we are not alone in... may be true.
No denial.

regarding myself
i am one for a combined european army, navy, air force. european minds doing european thinking, projects, software, hardware, training, combined exercises, stand a combined ground.
and a syncronisation of the fiscal social economical and intellectual , poitical systems. (etc)

because my mind tells me this is the way to survive.
but i have seen enough of life to know we aint gonna make that happen.
or survive.
Just see the scots trying to gain independence... or the spaniards inner fighings.

Humans are eiter too BRIGHT or too DIM for that. Or Both.
(very very very large brush of a very tired artist)

stomping feet and people taking their national military and political responsabilities...

Jimbuna

07-12-13, 09:48 AM

Heck of a way to tell a large amount of this board they are crap.

I think Europeans are freeloaders, who love us when we toss them money, but hate us in public to cater to its drooling populace, how about you useless bastards pay for your own military, and take more of the burden in NATO off of us, Europeans are leeches, and I lost all respect for them.

I hold them in the same regard as Islamic extremists, who relish our destruction, and the suffering of our people, but smile to our face, with a knife around the back.

Sucks to have it turned around, hmm?

Although painting in broad strokes is fun, but it is the sign of a crappy artist usually.:O:

Saved at the end.

soopaman2

07-12-13, 09:57 AM

Saved at the end.

Sarcasm is hard to convey in text, I am glad ya caught it.

I got nervous after I hit post.:O:

I was readying my clarification post.:D

I love my Euro brothers!:salute:

Jimbuna

07-12-13, 10:07 AM

It certainly didn't start out looking that way :03:

soopaman2

07-12-13, 10:24 AM

Edward Snowden animated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CvfeUbpoFg

Wolferz

07-12-13, 10:30 AM

Mittelwaechter

07-12-13, 10:49 AM

People with certain attributes and a possible interpretation...

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/11-3

Ducimus

07-12-13, 11:22 AM

Please, yanks, get moving, feet stomping.
because to your votes, wallets and rethoric they aint listening.

The likelyhood of what you seem to be advocating for is remote. On that note, you may find this 40 min talk interesting.
Coming Civil War in America? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVJ7MPSqCUk)
It takes him awhile to bring his point's home, but he makes some good points.

soopaman2

07-12-13, 11:33 AM

Does it really matter what any of us think about the situation?

Politicians will do what they do best... ignore the majority in favor of those with deep pockets who donate to their election campaigns.
Afterwards, they'll gather in their clubs and blame the voters for their transgressions while laughing all the way to the bank of the Caymans.

Get used to it because it ain't going to change. Then you can save your insults for the mirror.

Gonna have to agree.

The fella that thinks all 300 plus million American citizens are complicit in this, thinks America is some Utopia where, the people actually matter.

Or they think their own country superior because they fall under the same illusion.

Get a billion in the bank, or work for a bank then you might have a chance at being represented, no matter what country you live in.

You know its true, We are simply fodder for the kingmakers.

We are the Roman mob, easily amused by Gladiator games, and Kardashian shows.

HundertzehnGustav

07-13-13, 03:29 PM

We are the Roman mob, easily amused by Gladiator games, and Kardashian shows.

true words.
-even if i do not include me in that mob-

TarJak

07-13-13, 09:10 PM

Snowden has requested asylum in Russia whilst he sorts out his travel to Venzuela. http://www.smh.com.au/world/snowden-says-he-wants-russian-asylum-20130713-2pwg1.html

Having no valid travel documents is holding up his ability to make a move out of Russia, means that staying put or getting asylum in Russia are he only current options.

Jimbuna

07-14-13, 05:49 AM

Looks like all his eggs are in the same basket.

August

07-14-13, 09:07 AM

Looks like all his eggs are in the same basket.

Yeah he didn't plan his exit strategy very carefully or his original plans fell through and he's improvising. I'd expect that the Chinese and Russians already know everything he knows by now.

Catfish

07-14-13, 09:24 AM

Edward Snowden animated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CvfeUbpoFg

And i thought this was Snowden, animated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMduWKHNpY

And after an older member telling him about the NSA world view, he went straight to Hong Kong :O:

Jimbuna

07-14-13, 09:38 AM

Yeah he didn't plan his exit strategy very carefully or his original plans fell through and he's improvising. I'd expect that the Chinese and Russians already know everything he knows by now.

I reckon he'll still have one ace up his sleeve....the password to a secondary account on SubSim :03:

soopaman2

07-14-13, 01:23 PM

And i thought this was Snowden, animated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMduWKHNpY

And after an older member telling him about the NSA world view, he went straight to Hong Kong :O:

Oh darn, you tube blocked in my country. I am sad, I wanted the laugh! :(

soopaman2

07-14-13, 01:28 PM

At this point let him go, damage is done.

He already gave the contents of his 4 laptops to China and Russia.

All the American spy agencies can do is put out the fire.

Or continue to moniter my dirty text messages to my wife while she is at work. :haha:

Skybird

07-14-13, 01:44 PM

I reckon he'll still have one ace up his sleeve....the password to a secondary account on SubSim :03:

Accoding to German FOCUS magazine, which refers to The Guardian, Snowden still owns several thousand files of critical and sensible value, stored in several places worldwide.

Whistleblowing and spying, the latter is punishable, the first already Bush tried to turn into a punishable crime, but I think it is not and should not be - as long as you do not wish to destroy the poor remains of what before was called a free press. Obama just follows in Bush's footsteps here.

In the end, any opposition and any criticism of the government should be criminalised. If that cannot be done legally, then you threaten and try to intimidate anyone blowing the whistle. The case Valery Plame, anyone...? ;)

P.S. The Guardian's Greenwald told Argentinian newspaper La Nación that Snowden still had more information to do within a minute more damage to the US than anyone ever did before him. He also said that this nevertheless is not the intention of Snowden.

He does not want to compromise content and pieces of sensible information, but wants to disclose to the Americans the amount of their government's spying against the American citizen.

Two days ago, German FAZ had this interview with a science moderator who is quite known over here in Germany (he is not my cup of tea, nevertheless, I just say he is a popular face on TV). Ranga Yogeshwar put it this way: "Be ready to understand that in our time every citizen is a life-long suspect to his government". He also explains what it means that more and more we are not being held accountable to what we already have done, but that we are being held accountable for what gets predicted we eventually may do in the future. To me, that is a nightmare scenario, and a destruction of one of the most profound pillars of civil law and order society. I would also add that it has most dramatic consequences that no longer politicians understand that they are accountable to the people, but that politicians demand people to be accountable to them.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/ueberwachung/ranga-yogeshwar-im-gespraech-mit-dietmar-dath-rechnen-sie-damit-lebenslang-ein-verdaechtiger-zu-sein-12279206.html

Mittelwaechter

07-15-13, 08:09 AM

If my future will be count as predicted, how can I be free?

http://rt.com/news/snowden-nominated-nobel-peace-099/

Jimbuna

07-15-13, 08:58 AM

If my future will be count as predicted, how can I be free?

http://rt.com/news/snowden-nominated-nobel-peace-099/

I can't say I'm all that surprised.

Ducimus

07-15-13, 11:54 AM

At this point let him go, damage is done.

This administration? Your dreamin! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dik_wnOE4dk)

nikimcbee

07-15-13, 12:24 PM

This administration? Your dreamin! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dik_wnOE4dk)

Don't forget, he's a Chicago- Southside politician. Snowden will be at the bottom of Lake Michigan soon enough. :dead:

Mittelwaechter

07-15-13, 07:00 PM

http://rt.com/news/activist-questioned-spy-spotting-walk-136/

That's the way to go...

BossMark

07-16-13, 10:25 AM

I am off on a flight to Russia. I want to see Edward Snowden and ask him the one important question that everyone wants to know the answer too.
How many more extra size bars of Duty Free chocolate can you eat without needing emergency dental treatment?

Ducimus

07-17-13, 04:30 PM

It seems now that Senator Lindsey Graham (R) South Carolina wants the US to boycott the 2014 winter Olympics in Russia.:har:

Armistead, it's time they recalled this RWNJ wouldn't you say?

Mr speaker Boehner said "redonkulous" or words to that effect and is still calling Eddie a traitor. Well, I say, it takes one to know one.:down:

It's not just a republican thing, both parties are
a.) In someone's pocket. See Oligarchy.
b.) in power.

Those in power, do not like it challenged, nor threatened. Things like what snowden has done, challenges their power, and disrupts the status quo. Keeping status quo is all our politicians want, regardless of what side of the isle they sit on.

Wolferz

07-17-13, 04:38 PM

Preaching to the choir Duci.

See through them I can.

Mittelwaechter

07-18-13, 10:09 AM

http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/

Tuesday!

Mittelwaechter

07-18-13, 10:12 AM

http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/

Tuesday!

Does US media comment on this?

soopaman2

07-18-13, 11:15 AM

I cannot hate this man, I still kinda despise him though.

All bull-stuff aside, this man only confirmed what most of us suspected.
(Patriot act been around awhile, and not all of us bought into it, when presented)

My concern is the fact the chinese and Russians, had access to his 4 laptops, which makes the treason charge justifiable, are you all so nieve, that you think he got a free ride all this time from these kind nations who happen to be buttbuddies?

Ducimus

07-18-13, 11:34 AM

I cannot hate this man, I still kinda despise him though.

Snowden? I don't hate or love him. To me he's just a guy, I can't call him a patriot, and I can't call him a traitor. My attention and ire, hasn't been on him, but what came out of him.

All bull-stuff aside, this man only confirmed what most of us suspected.
(Patriot act been around awhile, and not all of us bought into it, when presented)

True enough. However, there's a difference between "I think", and "maybe" and "ahh, just conspiracy theory garbage" to, "Confirmed", "true", "real", and "Holy crap!"

My concern is the fact the chinese and Russians, had access to his 4 laptops, which makes the treason charge justifiable, are you all so nieve, that you think he got a free ride all this time from these kind nations who happen to be buttbuddies?

I'm at odds with myself on his laptops. If all they contain is information about the NSA's unconstitutional program, then i say, "GOOD!". In my view the whole program they have going there needs to be dismantled and done away with. The more information that comes out about it, the better. If enough data is out on it, then they'll have no choice.

If it contains information OTHER then the NSA's program, then that's a whole different critter. The name Benedict Arnold comes to mind.

But since there's no way to know what exactly he has, I find myself unable to form a opinion about him.

soopaman2

07-18-13, 11:42 AM

Ducimus

07-18-13, 11:50 AM

I struggle Ducimus, as I have trouble deciding outright.

The laptops, scare me though, and in his desperation to escape the US wrath, I am afraid he gave nations on :"barely friendly terms" alot of info.

At the same time he confirmed how American Exceptionalism, and how much more noble we are than anyone, is bull-stuff.

A humbling of sorts.

(reason why everyone but us loves it, nothing better than watching Rome fall)

Though they rarely think what will replace it...

Personally, I think the reality that has been staring us in the face for quite some time is that we ARE on the decline; socially, economically, and politically. As time goes on, I increasingly find myself believing that if we don't suffer an economic collapse first, our ultimate fate will be the tearing ourselves apart from within due to political strife. Maybe not an all out second civil war as is popular internet conjecture, but not to far from it. Never in my life have i viewed our government as I do today, and I know I'm not the only one.

As to what will replace us as "rome"? China. Hands down, china. We practically gave it to them by virtue of our own greed and ignorance.

soopaman2

07-18-13, 11:54 AM

Personally, I think the reality that has been staring us in the face for quite some time is that we ARE on the decline; socially, economically, and politically. As time goes on, I increasingly find myself believing that if we don't suffer an economic collapse first, our ultimate fate will be the tearing ourselves apart from within due to political strife. Maybe not an all out second civil war as is popular internet conjecture, but not to far from it. Never in my life have i viewed our government as I do today, and I know I'm not the only one.

As to what will replace us as "rome"? China. Hands down, china. We practically gave it to them by virtue of our own greed and ignorance.

I will quote this so people read it again.:up:
Nothing I can add or detract, the nail was just hit on the head.

Ducimus

07-18-13, 12:04 PM

Heh, you know, I've been mulling over joining the Oath Keepers. Haven't done it yet, and have been trying to find out as much info as I can before doing so. Not sure if it's something I want to involve myself in or not, because I haven't quite figured out yet if it's "on the money", and the right thing to do, or too extreme. For every article I found that says, this is a credible movement, I find another that says their extremists in fantasy land, I also wonder if it's just a dying fad. Of course, what the article say, depends on weither they are biased to the right or left.

And, that's the hard part this day and age, with all that's going on. Trying to get a good pulse of what's what, and what's the right thing to do, all the while trying to filter out the extremist bull. All i know is, our country will come to a crossroads at some point, and I don't intend to be idle when it does.

soopaman2

07-18-13, 12:15 PM

Ducimus

07-18-13, 12:29 PM

I just want a complete purge of both houses of congress, and a campaign system that does not rely on private donors.

Too many bankers and energy company "buying" freedom from law or consequences.

Right BP, a foreign company, who holds more sway than American Citizens?

Too big to fail. Big LOL, means gives too much money to attack.

Democracy? My puckered rectum! :D

Oligarchy. much more appropriate.

(Yeah I said it, shove it up your loose violated anuses NSA)

You won't find me disagreeing with you there. The big problem is that we have the best government money can buy. Until we change that, "We the people" is little more then empty words. Going off the deep end of the political pool and into extremeville for a second, I think this is why gun control is such a big deal to people like Bloomberg. It's Kinda like declawing a cat. Once you remove the claws, its an indoor kitty only - no more going outdoors, and utterly dependant upon it's owner because its no longer able to fend for itself.

soopaman2

07-18-13, 12:36 PM

You won't find me disagreeing with you there. The big problem is that we have the best government money can buy. Until we change that, "We the people" is little more then empty words. Going off the deep end of the political pool and into extremeville for a second, I think this is why gun control is such a big deal to people like Bloomberg. It's Kinda like declawing a cat. Once you remove the claws, its an indoor kitty only - no more going outdoors, and utterly dependant upon it's owner because its no longer able to fend for itself.

I hate to Godwin this and forgive me, but in the particular discussion it seems approprate.

The Nazis took away guns, So did Stalin.

Very successful regimes right? Both of them got things right.:rotfl2:

NO, VERY OPRESSIVE!

(all caps intended)

Ducimus

07-18-13, 01:02 PM

I wouldn't say our government is oppressive... just yet.

But they are well on their way. If we, as a people do not wake up and act in the here and now, before it's too late, our descendents will not be born in the same nation, with the same freedom and liberties that we did. This, we cannot allow.

Unfortunately, there is a counter argument some people have adopted, and also unfortunately for me, it is one my wife shares. It goes like this: "Well, times have changed, it is what it is, and we have to give up a little in order to be safe. I just want to live in peace and not worry about anything". While i can share wholeheartedly for the desire to live in peace and not have to worry about anything, I reject with every fiber in my being the notion of giving up ANY of our civil liberties and freedom in order to do so. As crazy and unlikely as it sounds, If there ever a time came when a properly constituted authority at the city, county or state level, established a regulated militia, I hope she will be able to understand.

Mittelwaechter

07-20-13, 07:34 PM

http://www.ipb.org/web/index.php?mostra=news&menu=News&id_nom=IPB+awards+MacBride+Peace+Prize+2013+to+US+ whistleblower+Bradley+Manning

The International Peace Bureau is delighted to announce that this year’s Sean MacBride Peace Prize is to be awarded to Bradley Manning, the US whistleblower whose case has attracted worldwide attention, for his courageous actions in revealing information about US war crimes. His trial is likely to be concluded in the coming days.

No major free independant western media covers it...

http://www.google.com/search?q=sean+macbride+peace+award+manning&btnG=Search&hl=en&gbv=1

Skybird

07-25-13, 05:54 AM

First Amendment under attack.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/obama-wages-war-on-whistleblowers-and-journalists-a-912852.html

Meanwhile it became known (repoprted by Cnet) that the FBI has demanded companies to hand over encryption keys that secure https-connections that for example are used for "secure" banking connections and financial transactions. While big companies have the lawyers and financial means to challenge such demands legally (their legality is questioned by many jurists), even some of them like Apple and Yahoo, AOL and Verizon have refused to answer Cnet's questions wether they had been approached and what they did in reply to such requests. Also, such demands could be designed to base on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act FISA, whose validity has just been confirmed by a secret court established to bypass checks and balances and any political monitoring week, and which is capable to be abused for spying anywhere, anytime, on everyone, inside and outside the US, US citizen or not.

My problem with all this is ot the measurement itself. My problem is that the entity using these measures cannot be trusted and is not trustworthy, and that there is no counter-control, and that there is impossible a differentiation to make between counter-terrorism, ordinary crime investigation, civil population control, and economic espionage.

These are frighteningly powerful tools in the hands of totally and hopelessly corrupted, underhanded people who are known for notorious lying, cheating, corruption, and eroding the fundaments of the constitutional and/or moral values they maliciously claim to base upon. Governments, politicians, and the cliques they are embedded in.

One day, there was a scorpion meeting a fox by the river, and the scorpion told the fox: "I cannot swim, would you please carry me over the water?" The fox said: "No, I do not let you crawl on my shoulders and then swim over, you are a scorpion and you will sting me." The scorpion said: "But I cannot swim and would drown if I sting you, so it is in my best interest and I hereby promise you that I will not sting you if you let me climb onto you. Please set me over." The fox, who had a soft heart, thought for a moment, and then said "Okay, climb on my shoulder, and hold tight." And the scorpion climbed on his shoulders and hid deep in the fur, and the fox then went into the river and started to swim to the other side. In the middle of the stream he suddenly felt a terribly pain in his shoulder, and a feeling of cold paralysis started to fill his whole body. Fighting the waves in vain and realising that he would drown, he turned to the scorpion and said: "But you gave your word not to sting me, and now you will die, like I I will! Why have you done that?" And the scorpion said: "Yes, I promised you not to sting you, but why have you believed that - have you forgotten that I am a scorpion? It is in a scorpion's nature to sting, we just cannot do any differently."

TarJak

07-25-13, 06:02 AM

First: http://www.smh.com.au/world/moscow-hint-on-snowden-asylum-20130723-2qhcx.html

Then:
Someone in Russia appears to be playing silly buggers with Mr. Snwoden: http://www.smh.com.au/world/fugitive-snowdens-hopes-of-leaving-moscow-airport-dashed-20130724-2qjuw.html

Or has a deal been cut with the US?

Jimbuna

07-25-13, 09:06 AM

No deal yet I reckon but if the US gives guarantees to look more kindly on Russian requests for extradition from the us then yes, a deal will most probably be brokered.

TarJak

07-27-13, 04:25 AM

Sounds like there is some dealing going on based on this report, but as you say no deal as yet:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/edward-snowden-will-not-face-death-penalty-us-assures-russia-20130727-2qr1k.html

Skybird

07-27-13, 04:39 AM

Poor guy, getting victimized by that kind of political cynism he wanted to reveal. But what has he expected when ripping masks off faces, and asking the devil for refuge. Any government hates and despises its people, any government only befriends with itself.

Manning being connected to working with Al Quaeda. Assange being taken out of the match by linking him to rape. Snowden falling next. The US government really means business in destroying free press and hiding its dirt under the carpets.
Journalism that finds no more sources trusting in staying protected, is not worth the name, and the whole press thereby turns into government propaganda machinery.

Freedom?

Not needed anymore. Let the state define the truth for you. That's convenient. That's lull. That's easy living.

Tchocky

07-27-13, 05:00 AM

Assange being taken out of the match by linking him to rape.

Anything at all to back this up?

Skybird

07-27-13, 05:28 AM

Anything at all to back this up?

Yes. Argued and posted repeatedly. "Search" is open for everybody.

And I am quite certain you know it. One could not have overlooked it in the forum back then.

Nippelspanner

07-27-13, 11:13 AM

Snowden?
I wish him the best, really.

Catfish

07-27-13, 11:44 AM

They try to make an example of Manning, so they can use the same for Snowden and all the others from the last decade. There are not only Manning and Snowden, indeed the former heads of the CIA and NSA have already criticized the post-9/11 methods and contributed to the discussion.

The question is whether the military will get through with it, after all what 'leaked out' is all true.

(b.t.w. 'leaked' lol what a definition - a 'whistleblower' is a policeman who whistles because he caught a thief red-handed - which is exactly what happened)

Mittelwaechter

07-27-13, 11:54 AM

How to get through?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/

As stated before, those in control do what they want. The politicians are puppets - bought and controlled - and the voters are made believe to run a democracy.

Catfish

07-27-13, 11:55 AM

^ Well, no one has ever learned of history :-?

Mittelwaechter

07-27-13, 01:18 PM

I try to.

:yep:

And those in control do learn from history and they teach their children well.

Tchocky

07-27-13, 03:22 PM

Yes. Argued and posted repeatedly. "Search" is open for everybody.

And I am quite certain you know it. One could not have overlooked it in the forum back then.

Actually most of what was stated was that it was obviously a setup and going on from there.

Things like this. I'm quoting bits and pieces from the main thread.

The whole thing is very likely a plot to arrest Assange by the Swedish, NO MATTER WHAT.

.......

I take it for granted that the decision of any court hearing was pre-written by political lobbying in the background, no matter what he would say and others say.

I'll just quote myself from the earlier thread because we like to repeat ourselves on this one. This is the last post on one of the threads.

Again, Skybird, if you have any evidence of this being staged please post it.

Calling it a plot doesn't make it one

Relevant threads.

www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=202232 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=202232)
www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=189675 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=189675)
www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177756 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177756)

I thought it smelled strange too, at the beginning. The timing and everything. But from everything I have read and seen, there is nothing to support the conclusion that this is a plot.

Gerald

07-31-13, 06:17 AM

The father of US fugitive Edward Snowden has said the FBI asked him to travel to Moscow and see his son, but adds that he wants more details.

Authorities may want to have a hold here...:hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23514431

Note: Update record, 31 July 2013 Last updated at 09:39 GMT

TarJak

08-01-13, 07:34 AM

Jimbuna

08-01-13, 10:15 AM

Just heard a report that Snowden has left Moscow airport and has been moved to a "safe" location with the granting of asylum by Russia.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1795275/Snowden-leaves-Moscow-airport

Two questions then...

1) How long before his whereabouts are disclosed?

2) What happens after a year has passed?

August

08-01-13, 11:09 AM

2) What happens after a year has passed?

Bet he just turns up unexpectedly in his choice of permanent asylum country long before that.

Jimbuna

08-01-13, 02:07 PM

Bet he just turns up unexpectedly in his choice of permanent asylum country long before that.

More than likely I suppose....a quick flight to wherever as soon as the spotlight is turned off the subject.

Nicolas

08-01-13, 02:57 PM

Mittelwaechter

08-01-13, 04:19 PM

Avoid dirty dishes in your sink! And better keep your garage organized!

https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

TarJak

08-01-13, 05:32 PM

And the US goverment don't know that everyone knows, and they plan to keep going with this :huh:. They don't have permission to read my e-mails. not that i have something important, but i don't allow that, someone tell them.

They know but don't care because someone told them that they don't need you to give permission.

Nicolas

08-01-13, 05:58 PM

Then i drop all respect i can have for them.

Wolferz

08-01-13, 08:25 PM

Then i drop all respect i can have for them.

Tyrants in any form deserve no respect. Especially the ones who are sworn to protect our liberties, but don't.

They have mucho gall calling Snowden a traitor and a spy when they're worse in my book.:-?

It will come time to balance the books soon enough.

WernherVonTrapp

08-03-13, 12:38 PM

I subscribe to a number of PC/Networking related newsletters. Read a couple of interesting articles about this "Government Eavesdropping" campaign.

NSA chief to Black Hat on surveillance: Don't believe press reports
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/080113-nsa-chief-to-black-hat-272431.html?source=NWWNLE_nlt_security_2013-08-02

How To Avoid NSA PRISM – Tips To Stay Private:
http://www.thewindowsclub.com/avoid-nsa-prism-stay-private

Personally, I'm more wary of the press than I am of the government. I don't Tweet, not Linked-In, I don't have a Facebook account nor am I a member at any other "social media" network.

Platapus

08-03-13, 12:58 PM

NSA chief to Black Hat on surveillance: Don't believe press reports
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/080113-nsa-chief-to-black-hat-272431.html?source=NWWNLE_nlt_security_2013-08-02

A nicely written article. I especially like the part where he points out the difference between being able to do something and doing it. Pretty much any government office has the ability to abuse power..... and they don't. Does it happen sometimes? Unfortunately yes. Which is why we have oversight organizations and procedures that work pretty well.

People forget that the NSA is not some nameless faceless entity. It is a government organization staffed with loyal, caring, and concerned citizens of the United States. They are your neighbours, friends, and family. Each one of whom shares the same privacy and government abuse concerns as non-NSA employees citizens.

It is not like if you work at the NSA you get a special code that prevents any of your information being collected. :nope: The people at the NSA are probably more concerned because they know how easy it would be to abuse.

But I fear the people have already made up their minds (either way on this issue. Unfortunately, it is far easier to spread fear about the NSA than it is to spread facts about the NSA.

WernherVonTrapp

08-03-13, 01:14 PM

...
People forget that the NSA is not some nameless faceless entity. It is a government organization staffed with loyal, caring, and concerned citizens of the United States. They are your neighbours, friends, and family. Each one of whom shares the same privacy and government abuse concerns as non-NSA employees citizens...

But I fear the people have already made up their minds (either way on this issue. Unfortunately, it is far easier to spread fear about the NSA than it is to spread facts about the NSA.
I sometimes wonder if it's "Jack Ryan/Patriot Games" paranoia or the government's new "Bourne Identity" that fuels the suspicion. Ever since Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein exposed deep throat, everyone has been jumping on the BJ bandwagon looking for an evil government to fuel their investigative reporter aspirations.
Abraham Lincoln once said On assumptions: “If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.”

August

08-03-13, 01:14 PM

A nicely written article. I especially like the part where he points out the difference between being able to do something and doing it. Pretty much any government office has the ability to abuse power..... and they don't. Does it happen sometimes? Unfortunately yes. Which is why we have oversight organizations and procedures that work pretty well.

People forget that the NSA is not some nameless faceless entity. It is a government organization staffed with loyal, caring, and concerned citizens of the United States. They are your neighbours, friends, and family. Each one of whom shares the same privacy and government abuse concerns as non-NSA employees citizens.

It is not like if you work at the NSA you get a special code that prevents any of your information being collected. :nope: The people at the NSA are probably more concerned because they know how easy it would be to abuse.

But I fear the people have already made up their minds (either way on this issue. Unfortunately, it is far easier to spread fear about the NSA than it is to spread facts about the NSA.

It's the secretive nature of the beast. How can "we the people" know that there is proper and effective oversight on a huge government program that we're not allowed to know even exists?

WernherVonTrapp

08-03-13, 01:40 PM

It's the secretive nature of the beast. How can "we the people" know that there is proper and effective oversight on a huge government program that we're not allowed to know even exists?
Well that certainly does fill the coffers of the conspiracy theorists imaginations. Maybe that's why a lot of Hollywood movies have been portraying our government as the "Enemy Of The State", instead of a government struggling to find a sincere balance between protecting Constitutional Rights while protecting American lives at the same time. This, in a day and age where News, information and technology itself is outpacing our abilities to keep tabs on it.
Spying on Americans and/or foreigners is nothing new in this country. Read about the fledgling FBI tracking down suspected communists or keeping secret files on our own government officials. Was it right or wrong to do so? That's not for me to judge, I cannot say with certainty that I know all the facts. Has it hurt our country or destroyed our Constitutional Rights? Apparently not.
So now we live in a day and age where information passes by volumes in a matter of seconds or the blink of an eye. The government has almost no choice but to glean volumes.
I certainly remember all the News articles and reports critical of our government's ineffectiveness or inability to track down and prevent terrorists from crashing some jets into our nation's capitol and the World Trade Centers. They spared no expense criticizing all levels of government, the FBI and the CIA. Looks like the government is screwed if they do and screwed if they don't.

Wolferz

08-03-13, 01:52 PM

But I fear the people have already made up their minds (either way on this issue. Unfortunately, it is far easier to spread fear about the NSA than it is to spread facts about the NSA.

Isn't that something to be expected of yet another super secret organization created within the government? The purpose sounds noble enough but, it has way too much room to be used for nefarious purposes. Using it to spy on the citizens is one such nefarious purpose and a very slippery slope.

A government is a body of people most notably ungoverned. That fact kind of tosses out the notion of oversight checks and balances. If the people elected by We the people have so much to hide, should we really trust them implicitly?

The NSA is operating under the eye of a secret court so they say. I, for one, would like to know who runs this court. It's not someone you or I elected to the position. So, we have little if any control over the courts' actions and searching for truthful answers from the politicians would be like trying to find hens teeth.
Should we really fear a government agency that treads on our rights with impunity? Damn right we should! If we allow them to get away with it now, what's next?:stare:

u crank

08-03-13, 02:15 PM

I certainly remember all the News articles and reports critical of our government's ineffectiveness or inability to track down and prevent terrorists from crashing some jets into our nation's capitol and the World Trade Centers. They spared no expense criticizing all levels of government, the FBI and the CIA. Looks like the government is screwed if they do and screwed if they don't.

That would appear to be so. One thing you don't hear from those who criticize the current state of affairs is an alternative to keeping tabs on those who would do us harm. After all surveillance is just that. Ineffective intelligence gathering is as bad as no intelligence gathering.

Platapus

08-03-13, 02:48 PM

The NSA is operating under the eye of a secret court so they say. I, for one, would like to know who runs this court. It's not someone you or I elected to the position.

It is a federal court. In the United States, no federal judge is elected by the people. They are appointed by the POTUS and confirmed by the Senate. To serve on the FISA court (FISC), one has to already be an appointed and confirmed Federal Judge and be appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

That's the guy you have to be worried about, not the POTUS. The Chief Justice can appoint any federal judge he wants with no oversight. This is by design so that the Executive Branch could not pack the FISA court.... evidently it is OK for the Judicial Branch to pack the FISA court. :doh:

The names members of the FISC are public information and can be easily found.

A good reference is: The U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review: An Overview

From the CRS 24 Jan 07

Platapus

08-03-13, 03:00 PM

It's the secretive nature of the beast. How can "we the people" know that there is proper and effective oversight on a huge government program that we're not allowed to know even exists?

That is an awesome point!

This is why I feel that the government has the responsibility to earn the trust of the citizens, through transparency when allowed. Having a reputation of being trustworthy goes a long way when the government has to say "you have to trust us this time".

If the government does not have a reputation of being trustworthy, the "you have to trust us this time" does not fly with the citizens... and rightfully so.

No one, especially not the government should enjoy a position of presumed trust. Trust by the citizens must be earned and is easily lost.

I wish politicians would learn this. The days of a priori trust in the government are gone. :nope:

Government people on the "inside" of these secret programs have to realize that while they know things are going well, that the average citizens, who is on the "outside" of these programs does not know it.

People instinctively fear the unknown. They especially fear the unknown about their own government. And to me, that is a perfectly valid viewpoint.

I wished I had the solution.... well I do, but I can't tell you.. you will have to trust me this time..... :haha::haha:

WernherVonTrapp

08-03-13, 04:18 PM

Ineffective intelligence gathering is as bad as no intelligence gathering.
I wholeheartedly agree. But, if the method of intelligence gathering has stopped even one plot of terrorism or mass destruction, it has not been ineffective.

@Wolferz:
Talk about power w/o oversight: Who oversees the press? The stockholders? The Editors? And, who then do they answer to? To publicize a headline/story without all the facts and make accusations w/o just cause is beyond irresponsible. To sensationalize for the promotion of sales should give rise to extreme caution on the reader or listener of a News report, but we all assume it's true. After all, the News said so.

I don't know if this has happened to anyone, but it has happened to me. I go to certain stores to do my food shopping. I join their discount club and apply for one of their cards. I fill out a form with my name, address, telephone number and an email address. Then I shop with my new card and receive discounts on various items. Upon checking out, I scan my card to receive these discounts. Then, along with my receipt, I receive a string of coupons for the same items I just purchased.

Later on, I find an email from the shopping center that offers me more coupons for the same or similar items I've purchased. This is the beginning of a profile database. It starts with shopping discount cards or on-line clubs, social media networks and expands to cover every webpage you visit, every link you click on and every online purchase you make.

Use a cellphone or droid? Make any purchases or visit any websites from that device? I assure you, big business knows more about you, your address and your IP address than the government does. So what do we know about those data collectors and who is overseeing what they do with our personal, private, information?

Yes, there's always concerns with the government and secret programs. So, why then don't we spend as much time trying to find out who it is that secretly tracks our every move, purchase or webpage visited. The more intimately they know you, the more harm they can do you than the government can. Ahhh, but that doesn't sell the News as well as the "Evil Government" does.
That's my thought about it.

Tribesman

08-03-13, 10:13 PM

I like the way the US agencies can get round any restrictions on them carrying out domestic spying on its own citizens, simply by paying the British to do their spying on Americans for them.

Wolferz

08-03-13, 10:22 PM

TarJak

08-03-13, 11:22 PM

Catfish

08-04-13, 05:29 AM

... I'd be interested to see examples or citations of where you see your government has been dishonest in giving themselves unlimited power.

Not really to unlimited power .. but examples where governments (including US) has used desinformation or sheer lies to 'motivate' and get its own people go to war are abundant. And in comparison to what the average John Doe knows and does the power concentrated in the hands of a few, with their possibilities to change the minds of their sheep, IS almost unlimited.

Also how you see that DC already considers the Bill of Rights to be subject to change without notice.

I do not know so much about the Bill of rights especially when it comes to changed new electronic surveillance, but is not each and every paragraph guaranteeing an abstract 'freedom' being violated by Prism, Tempora, Marina, you name it ? And not only against 'enemy' or 'allied' countries, but within.

I would not say the USA is on a way to a fascist state or that it is anyone's intention at the moment, but the technical possibilites provided and used would - in case that happened - make a swingback to normal circumstances 'difficult', to say at least.

As far as i read the NSA is really in search and open for hints regarding how they should do their work, or at least they try to present that picture. Not that England or any other country with its secret services is shy to spy out own, and foreign citizens.

I admit it is difficult -
but we would not even know about all that, without men like Manning, and Snowden.

Wolferz

08-04-13, 09:42 AM

^ What Catfish said Mr Tarjak.:)

August

08-04-13, 10:30 AM

I never subscribed to the notion of...
My country, may she always be right. But right or wrong, my country.

I'm curious, why not?

After all your "country" isn't just a bunch of government politicians and employees, it is made up by your family, your neighbors, your community and the millions of your fellow citizens across the land mass known as the United States of America.

Personally I think your country deserves your loyalty.

WernherVonTrapp

08-04-13, 10:36 AM

Effective or not. If it stomps on even one person's rights, it's wrong.
That's just my opinion. I never subscribed to the notion of...
My country, may she always be right. But right or wrong, my country.
I've been around long enough to see with my own eyes just how dishonest the government can be in giving themselves unlimited power over everyone.
Next thing you know, the Bill of Rights will be renamed The Bill of Privileges... Subject to change without notice. It seems that DC already considers this to be the case.
We all know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just don't blindly get on the bus or the bandwagon and expect the air conditioner to keep you cool.

Driver where you taking us?
Don't get me wrong Wolferz. I'm not saying that I don't have my own gripes or disagreements with our government, and that's on a Federal, State and local government level. What I am suggesting, is maybe this whole seemingly anti-government atmosphere has been brewing for some time now, and not always due to the government's own behavior. Maybe there's is a lot more to learn about this eavesdropping issue before we all throw in the towel, one way or the other.
Maybe, just maybe, the government isn't out to get us on this issue. Maybe there is an even more powerful force out there (corporate and business, now a worldwide entity) who knows more about the foods we eat, the clothes we wear and the places we frequent, than our own government does. But, no one raises an eyebrow to that?

Not all the facts appear to be in, and in light of this thus far, Mr. Snowden is not a hero to me. He stole. I think he saw something he didn't fully understand, assumed it was "Big Bad Brother" and stole the information for his own personal agenda, whatever that agenda may prove to be.
If there's anything I've come to learn, it's that people tend to be self-serving, first and foremost, followed by their "best of intentions".
I'm not passing judgement on either, but everyone already knows he stole the information. The facts remain to be seen on everything else.

Oberon

08-04-13, 10:54 AM

I like the way the US agencies can get round any restrictions on them carrying out domestic spying on its own citizens, simply by paying the British to do their spying on Americans for them.

We've got to learn their weaknesses somehow...

Oh...wait...

Forget I said anything... :shifty:

Wolferz

08-04-13, 11:19 AM

Well, Wern, I won't disagree that Mr Snowden obtained this information in an illegal fashion even though the information is damning in its content. Two wrongs don't make a right. But, it does light up the kitchen to give us a glimpse of some supremely underhanded roaches who are now scurrying for the woodwork. Pointing the finger of misdirection as they go.

After I took the oath to serve my country and defend our constitution and all the other confetti that goes with it, I take special affront to those within the halls of government who would deem themselves worthy enough to cast aside the same oath and do as they please. Sure, there's a bigger picture. The only problem is that the picture is veiled in secrecy. I really don't fear death at the hands of any perceived enemy, foreign or domestic. Giving up even one right for some false sense of security is a step toward the same tyranny we cast off so long ago. I'm not so much concerned with how it will affect me. I'm more concerned with how it will affect my children and my grand children and so on down the line...
I too am just as concerned with the corporate influence that seems to be so pervasive within our lives, our government and the world at large. Maybe that is The Beast that Revelations speaks of?
My span is short now and I won't be around much longer to rage against the machine. But I will rage against the dying of the light until I can rage no more.
Then I will return with the master and cleave evil with a sword of truth in the valley of Armageddon. Nobody gets out alive without the master's blessing.
For now, let the wicked men do as they will. I will say no more.

Tribesman

08-04-13, 12:18 PM

I'm curious, why not?

After all your "country" isn't just a bunch of government politicians and employees, it is made up by your family, your neighbors, your community and the millions of your fellow citizens across the land mass known as the United States of America.

Personally I think your country deserves your loyalty.

Personally a country deserves what it deserves depending on the issue and its actions surrounding each issue.
Its why the blanket "my country" approach is only supportable if you don't really think about it at all.

We've got to learn their weaknesses somehow...

Oh...wait...

Forget I said anything... :shifty:
I was just surprised at the amounts Snowden revealed they are paying the UK to do their domestic spying for them.
Britain is getting a great deal there.

Oberon

08-04-13, 12:43 PM

I was just surprised at the amounts Snowden revealed they are paying the UK to do their domestic spying for them.
Britain is getting a great deal there.

Well, to be fair, and no offense to the NSA and CIA, but we've been in the spying game for a very long time, and been countering attacks on our country for a lot longer too, so our infrastructure for intelligence gathering is likely to be a bit further reaching. I am surprised that our elint is what's being sought after though, traditionally we've been more humint than elint, that's usually been the US's job, but I guess we've been working on elint on the quiet too. :yep:

Tribesman

08-04-13, 02:11 PM

Well, to be fair, and no offense to the NSA and CIA, but we've been in the spying game for a very long time, and been countering attacks on our country for a lot longer too, so our infrastructure for intelligence gathering is likely to be a bit further reaching. I am surprised that our elint is what's being sought after though, traditionally we've been more humint than elint, that's usually been the US's job, but I guess we've been working on elint on the quiet too. :yep:
Not on the quiet really. Mark Thomas done a piece on the growth and the scope of it about 20 years ago. Now it has a bigger staff and bigger budget than all the other intelligence services combined.

Packlife

08-04-13, 11:08 PM

Normally I would probably be on the side that is mad at the government for doing what its been doing, but that was until I read a book called "Operation Dark Heart". It was written by a former intelligence officer he wasnt CIA he was army intel/ another agency I wanna say DIA something like that. Anyway during the book he talked about a time when JSOC/SOCOM were focusing more on terrorism an this was pre 9/11 an they had come up with a data mining program, an guess who they found using some of the same programs being discussed??? Mohammed Otta an the rest of the 9/11 terrorists, but government lawyers wouldnt allow any type of investigation into them since they werent american citizens an some other reasons I cant remember. So these lawyers pretty much said forget about them period, they didnt have any info about 9/11 but if they would of been allowed to investigate these guys you can bet that 9/11 would of been avoided. So if these programs can help stop terrorists from trying to pull something like a 9/11 again I'm good with it, plus I dont have anything to worry about. An from what I've seen growing up if terrorists did attack the country again probably half of America would be angry at the government for not using these same programs to catch an stop them, so really the government is damned if they do an damned if they dont

TarJak

08-05-13, 06:02 AM

^ What Catfish said Mr Tarjak.:)

What he said was different to what you said. specifically about UNLIMITED power. I'm still in the dark about your examples.

His comments about PRISM being unconstitutional somehow don;t ring true, if the NSA is "goverened" by a court, then why is that court not upholding the constitution? Does your constitution also separate state and judiciary?

Again, not trying to be difficult, but you've made a statement that I'm not seeing much evidence for.

Wolferz

08-05-13, 09:43 AM

What he said was different to what you said. specifically about UNLIMITED power. I'm still in the dark about your examples.

His comments about PRISM being unconstitutional somehow don;t ring true, if the NSA is "goverened" by a court, then why is that court not upholding the constitution? Does your constitution also separate state and judiciary?

Again, not trying to be difficult, but you've made a statement that I'm not seeing much evidence for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
Illumination for you my friend...

You should notice right off the bat that the word PATRIOT in Patriot act has nothing to do with patriotism. It's an acronym.

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001Long titleAn Act to deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes.

The last four words in this quote are the most disturbing... " and for other purposes"
Purposes not enumerated or disclosed. That alone raises my WTF?! flag.

Uniting and strengthening America? I think not. In fact, it's pretty much had the opposite effect imho. The Bush cabinet used bald faced lies to embroil us in two military actions on foreign soils. Questionable actions with no clear purpose presented. The act has done one thing rather well. Circumventing due process and giving the government the power to detain indefinitely without charge or trial. There's your unlimited power grab.

Skybird

08-05-13, 11:21 AM

A political system rutheless trying to hide its crimes and lying, its cheating and betraying, its abuse of powers and overstepping of lines: Manning, Snowden, Assange are all battles of the same war against unmasking the criminal nature of the regimes.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bradley-manning-verdict-use-of-espionage-act-shows-us-hypocrisy-a-914834.html

With the recent move of the prosecutors of Manning it is obvious that the only purpose of this show trial is to intimidate any wannabe whistleblower in the future, and to silence free press which is a press beign pointless, toothless, meaningless if it is not able to base on occasional leaks that reveal the abuse of powers and the criminal nature of the regimes.

What Obama here orders to do, is not one bit different from the Urkaine's case against Timochenko, or Putin's prosecution of his critics and throwing them into jail, or Turkey, Erdoghan throwing discrditing the military and throwing dissidents into jail - erosion of possibilities to resist and oppose his regime, and pure intimndiation. It is about intimidation and silencing the press from A-Z. Nothing else, all sweet words and pathetic paroles aside. Under Bush, this was turned into WH dogma. Practiced, however, it already was before Bush. Just never before in such shameless and obvious candidness.

Too many people still are sleepy, prefer to look the other way, are ignorrant and comfortably chose to blindly trust in empty words and catch phrases, thinking that if some law is written on aper it automatically wins authority over the acting of politicians, Lobbyists and secret elites.

Well. The harvest will be according to what has been sown. No desire for mercy or feelings of compassion from me then.

P.S. German industry has started to react, in a way. For them, russian and Chinese industrial espionage are only secondary threats anymore. They realised that the Us is the worst threat in the field of industrial spionage by now. Some days ago, the British Tempora program was defended by referring to some official phrasing that allowed no other interpretation than that business spionage was the primary purpose of it from beginning on. And Prism and Tempora shrinking in importance - beside the followup Xkeystroke.

Mittelwaechter

08-05-13, 12:21 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

Trust the government and its working hands? Really?

In a democracy the people have to distrust their government to keep the democracy up and running.
That's THE attribute of a democracy. The people as rulers control their executive to do what they are ordered to do.
Distrust the government. NEVER believe ANYTHING the government tells you without questioning it. Allways check and cross-check before you accept an information.
If you don't have any evidence, not enough insight - don't assume the government tells the truth. Assume it lies until your government proves - undoubtly!!! - the truth of their statement. That's democracy.

If the peolpe get tired to watch their government, it will eventually hive off - take an own life.
It will start to lie and it will start to work to it's own advantage instead to the advantage of the people. It will start to bend and break laws. It will turn the 'observation' towards the people to gain more control.
It will abuse it's force to reduce the freedom of the people, to opress them and to be less controled by them.

A massive false flag operation can't be kept secret, because there are so many people involved and one of them would speak up sooner or later?

Yeah, we see that with the NSA mess right now. It was kept under the radar for years until one man, who sacrificed the rest of his life, spoke up. He was hunted around the globe and miscredited for taking cover from his honourable government. People are still dumb enough to take side with their government of liars, criminals, torturers, murderers.
That's a good motivation for the other secret keepers to come up with the dealings and wheelings of the governmental work against the people.

Before there were rumours, from plain crazy, ridicules conspiracy theorists and alu-hat wearers. Now everybody comes up with this 'nothing new here', who ever was interested could have known the whole story before. The government does a good job for our security.

Trust the government! Support the troops! Bla bla bla...
It doesn't matter what wrong is done - don't question but support!

This is the answer?

The US and their western allies as masters of the world are neo-fascist societies. They just don't want to realize it. Some see there might be a problem in the distance.

How many signs do we need to recognize the face of fascism?
Secret courts, special laws for the executive, surveillance of the people, abuse of rights, murder and crime by government, fusion of politics and corporates, terror and violence, propaganda, supported militias and mercenaries, ideological supremacy, torture camps and prisons, religious enemies, security justifies any action against people, one party (right winged)...

Yes, only two right winged parties are 'one party'. Just because the US has been indoctrinated for decades that anything left from republican (ultra right winged) is socialist doesn't make it right. The republicans are the right wing and the democrats are the left wing of your conservative, capitalistic right party. The US has no political choice. They may choose between 35 breakfast cereals, 18 sodas or 42 commercial ad channels. That's the freedom of choice.

There is not much difference in the other western societies. The money rules, not the people. They are just made to belive they have a say.

Deeply distrust your government! That's the people's job in a democracy.

The People have to gain control. The control of the Money has to be reduced.

Wolferz

08-05-13, 03:47 PM

Let's add a new wrinkle to this ever widening chasm of trust in the Federal government...
http://news.msn.com/us/dea-agents-directed-to-cover-up-spying-on-americans

DEA is spying on us too and leaving a phony trail of their investigations!!!

More and more of my fellow Americans who are supposed to be working on my behalf have become paranoid to the extreme.
The CIA thinks we're all terrorists.
The DEA thinks we're all drug dealers.

The ground work continues to progress toward totalitarianism.

Today, America. Tomorrow, The World.

I'd say the conspiracy nuts aren't so tooti frooti are they?

WernherVonTrapp

08-05-13, 03:56 PM

...

What's next?
I'm gonna go throw some hamburgers on the grill.:O:
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/d1e739f4.gif

Wolferz

08-05-13, 04:59 PM

I'm gonna go throw some hamburgers on the grill.:O:
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/d1e739f4.gif

If it's not against some new anti-whatever law, I'll have one with onions and mayo.:D

Platapus

08-05-13, 05:59 PM

In a democracy the people have to distrust their government to keep the democracy up and running.
That's THE attribute of a democracy.

Too bad we do not have a democracy in our country. We have a representative form of government where we, through elections, empower representatives to make decisions on our behalf. If we don't like the decisions our representative makes, we can choose every 2, 4,or 6 years not to vote for them. :yep:

There is a reason we do not have "confidence votes" and that we can only remove a representative through the impeachment/conviction process.

If you don't trust your representative, don't vote for him or her. It might also help if you can get your friends who agree with you not to vote for them either. :03:

Since our congressional representatives are re-elected about 90% of the time, it seems pretty clear that we do trust our representative.

It's the other representatives that are untrustworthy. :D

Wolferz

08-05-13, 07:19 PM

That's why we call it a Democratic Republic and not a democracy, Platapus.

I think our focus should be shifted a bit toward these rogue agencies who think they are above the law and the constitution. I won't mention any names but, I have lots of letters...
<cough> CIA
<cough> DEA
<cough> DHS

Skybird

08-06-13, 06:52 AM

Edit: corrected the grammatical mess I created in one paragraph, sorry for that inconvenience.

There are countries that are democracies AND republics. Examples are Germany, France, the United states.

There are Democracies that are no republics but monarchies in case of these examples: United Kingdom, Norway, Danmark, Sweden, Netherlands.

There are republics that are not democratic. China, Vietnam, for example.

And then there are countries that are neither democratic nor republican: (...)

What the first two categories all have in common is that they are voter-bribery-democracies (C. Braunschweig). Politicians secure their powers by making unsustainable promises - which the voters even demand from them. And for some strange reasons, voters do not care for the simple truth that in the end the bribery gifts they get caught with have to be payed for by themselves.

Since the bribery gifts cost more money than the national economy can produce, debts get added to the existing debts, and taxes for the wide public rise. So, all the countries running voter-bribery-democracies necessarily sooner or later must collapse financially under the burden of their ill-designed political system, even more so since such states necessarily breed an ever-growing- cost-intensive bureaucracy which becomes the more important and ineffective the bigger it becomes.

Add to the Keynesian spending frenzy by the political actors and parties and lobbies the permissive arbitrariness of the modern cultural climate that does not know nor allow cultural own identity-definition and hierarchical moral rules anymore without lifting the impertinent and pedantic pointing finger and calling any self-identity and causal justice "racism", "intolerance" or "social injustice", and you end in a society like ours today: where the demands and claims grow towards infinity, and where the insight that all what is to be spend must economically be earned before, has shrunk towards almost zero, and where people comfortably and lazily prefer social levelling/egalitarianism (Gleichmacherei, I do not mean Gleichheit) to justice and freedom, and where people mistake robbing the few and distributing the prey to the many, with responsible and maintainable economical management. At the same time you have a hidden elite establishment of business and political elites that try their best to hide their existence and to maximize the exploitation of everybody for their own profit-making beyond the level of what they indeed may causally deserve in profits . There are two forms of capitalists, the one trying to make as much money as fast and as easy as possible, and the other wanting to honestly earn his income by an adequate service by himself, a fair deal with his customer. Big business is about the first. The latter you find mostly only in the smaller forms of local business. But politics are in bed with big business, and all too often you have the political mandate and the private business lobby incarnated in one and the same person. Especially in America, but not just there. Like this has swapped to Europe and other places as well, European socialism has reached the American shore as well. There is no reason for optimism that the one place in the longer run will face a better fate than the other.

The people are no victims in it, but actively participate in the ongoing collective crime. That is the purpose of political campaigning, and election: to turn everybody into an accomplice, because as an accomplice you have no more moral right to complain and criticize about the crime unfolding - since you are helping it, since you are legitimizing it, since you are participating in it.

Boycott and disobedience, or violent overthrow, are the only moral choices left. If you want to win back freedom, you have to deny freedom to those abusing it. If you want a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant towards the intolerant. If you want a just society, you have to move from "everybody according to his needs" to "everybody according to what he deserves". "Solidarity" should be understood again as a quality that is used scarcely and cautiously only, instead of making inflationary, undifferentiated use of it to push through socialist ideology. Solidarity is no right - it must be earned. No man and no country has to make any claim for any other man or country, simply because the other exists - that would be slavery. No state has the right to demand loyalty from its native citizens just because they happened to have been born in this plac,e and not another one. Loyalty should not be granted on basis of random factors and arbitrary events, but on basis of a reasonable, causal assessment of the relation between oneself and the others/the state. It is impossible to claim loyalty to people that are foreign to you, juts because they have the same passport like you. That is no loyalty, but blind collectivism.

And yes, my standards by which I decide to whom I am loyal, are high. But when I made such a decision, then I mean it. That is because my resources are limited and I have just one life to put at risk. That's what make both too precious as that I would want to headlessly waste them. That's why high-flying emotions on nationalism and patriotism are extremely dubious and suspicious to me, and why I refuse any demand for loyalty to a state in principle.

TarJak

08-06-13, 07:41 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
Illumination for you my friend...

You should notice right off the bat that the word PATRIOT in Patriot act has nothing to do with patriotism. It's an acronym.

The last four words in this quote are the most disturbing... " and for other purposes"
Purposes not enumerated or disclosed. That alone raises my WTF?! flag.

Uniting and strengthening America? I think not. In fact, it's pretty much had the opposite effect imho. The Bush cabinet used bald faced lies to embroil us in two military actions on foreign soils. Questionable actions with no clear purpose presented. The act has done one thing rather well. Circumventing due process and giving the government the power to detain indefinitely without charge or trial. There's your unlimited power grab.
I'm well aware of the PATRIOT act, but you said "see with my own eyes just how dishonest the government can be in giving themselves unlimited power over everyone." How were the Government dishonest in implementing this act? Did it not pass through the normal congressional and senatorial processes? Where these processes not transparent? The act itself carries this caveat of control indicating that the power of the act is NOT unlimited:
SEC. 2. CONSTRUCTION; SEVERABILITY.
Any provision of this Act held to be invalid or unenforceable
by its terms, or as applied to any person or circumstance, shall
be construed so as to give it the maximum effect permitted by
law, unless such holding shall be one of utter invalidity or
unenforceability, in which event such provision shall be deemed severable from this Act and shall not affect the remainder thereof
or the application of such provision to other persons not similarly
situated or to other, dissimilar circumstances.

The "for other purposes" is however the only mention of expanded boundaries, but surely if the court governing the act says no that's not allowed then it therefore limits the power. This has already been proven in several cases which are mentioned in the same Wikipedia article you posted a link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act#Controversy

I don't disagree that the Bush(US), Blair(UK) and Howard (AU) administrations were not honest in either their reasons nor objectives of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but I don't see that as unlimited either, nor is it unusual behaviour when it comes to war. Historically larger and far bloodier wars have been fought for far more ridiculous and dishonest reasons.

So yes I get the dishonesty part of your argument, but then I expect dishonestly from politicians. It goes with the territory. I'm still not seeing UNLIMITED power being self granted anywhere.

Skybird

08-06-13, 07:48 AM

I'm still not seeing UNLIMITED power being self granted anywhere.
It's an ongoing project, everywhere. Many many woodpeckers out in the woods. Pick pick pick pick pick.

TarJak

08-06-13, 07:49 AM

Nah that takes too long. Stalin had the right way. Quickly and with much death.

Ducimus

08-06-13, 07:55 AM

That's why we call it a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy, Platapus.

Fixed. :O:

Wolferz

08-06-13, 08:10 AM

Fixed. :O:

I need more meat. My brain aren't working right.:O:

Sailor Steve

08-06-13, 10:34 AM

I see much picking of nits here. Even a cursory look will show that people who insist on separating "democracy" and "republic" are really more concerned with showing that "republicans" are better than "democrats". Nobody else bothers to point out the difference, true though it may be.

It's just more partisan politics.

Catfish

08-06-13, 11:16 AM

It is not that i do not give a s.. for what they do to their own people, but what about what they do to the rest of the world, and especially to their so-called "allies".
"We never knew what friends we had ..." ?

The 'Angeln' and the 'Sachsen' (Angles and Saxons) came from the region of what was later to become Germany. So when they invaded England long before 1066, they became to be known as the Angelsachsen, or Anglo-Saxons in 'english' (which is, of course, anglish).

And an 'Angel' is a fishing rod, in german ..
:O:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/angelsachsen_zps67464c82.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/angelsachsen_zps67464c82.jpg.html)

Platapus

08-06-13, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolferz http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2095739#post2095739)
That's why we call it a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy, Platapus.

Fixed. :O:
Rats ya beat me!

US Constitution, Article 4 section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

This was not a typo. :nope:

As for democracy? Well when the Constitution was first written, the only federal representatives the citizens were allowed to directly elect were their representatives in the House. President and Senators? nope, Electors still vote for president and the state legislator elected the Senators (until 1913)

Federal judges? nope. Still appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

So for two of the three branches of the government, the citizens were (and still are) excluded from direct elections. Only since 1913 have citizens been allowed to vote for their Senator.

An oversight? Nope.

Democracy is a noble academic concept, but our country has never been democratic.... nor should it.

For an interesting read: How democratic is the American Constitution" (2003) by Robert Dahl. Despite any initial reaction to the title, it is actually pro American and points out that the last thing we really want is democracy at the federal level.

For a rather cynical but not entirely inaccurate viewpoint "The myth of the rational voter" (2007) by Bryan Caplan. He is a hoot to read!

Wolferz

08-06-13, 05:07 PM

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

Addendum: Except when the federal government wants to invade seceded states.:03:
No guarantees in anything. Not then and not now.:-?

Platapus

08-06-13, 07:18 PM

After a successful revolution, one of the first rules the new government makes is to make another revolution illegal. :D

After all revolutions in the first person are justified -- our revolution
It is only when used in the third person -- their revolution -- is it problematic. :haha:

TarJak

08-07-13, 12:04 AM

Mittelwaechter

08-07-13, 01:05 PM

You do what we do? You are evil - we are good!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/07/obama-putin-extradition-snowden

Catfish

08-07-13, 02:32 PM

You do what we do? You are evil - we are good!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/07/obama-putin-extradition-snowden

Back to the good old times :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6-2b_3Dmxw

Jimbuna

08-07-13, 03:15 PM

Well as always in politics...the pendulum swings both ways.

Platapus

08-07-13, 04:26 PM

Well as always in politics...the pendulum swings both ways.

The confusing thing is that sometimes it swings both ways at the same time! :doh:

Wolferz

08-08-13, 06:33 AM

Putin on the brakes.

Way to go Eddie boy!:up:

XabbaRus

08-09-13, 03:06 AM

The Russian perspective from my wife is one of apathy and no surprise. While part of it is the two fingers up to America that Russians seem to enjoy it is also one of not being surprised at the Snowden revelations. Maybe it is from seven decades of living in a surveillance society but they don't trust their government and it doesn't trust them. They know governments want to know what their citizens are doing. To be honest I think Obama shouldn't of made such a big fuss of getting him back as the spotlight has stayed on him and the US government. Time will tell. Though my wife's first suspicion was that the whole thing was a double bluff on the part of the CIA

Mittelwaechter

08-09-13, 01:20 PM

“We don’t have a domestic spying program,” Obama told Leno during a Tuesday night interview. "What we do have are some mechanisms where we can track a phone number or an email address that we know is connected to some sort of terrorist threat."

Distraction and desinformation with the president's voice!

Obama’s former adviser Van Jones ridicules statement that NSA doesn’t spy on Americans.

Van Jones said Wednesday on CNN. "First of all, we do have a domestic spying program, and what we need to be able to do is figure out how to balance these things, not pretend like there’s no balancing to be done.”

http://rt.com/usa/us-obama-surveillance-snowden-296/

Ducimus

08-09-13, 02:24 PM

Email service linked to NSA leaker Edward Snowden shuts down (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/09/email-service-linked-to-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-shuts-down/)
A Texas-based email service reportedly used by National Security Agency systems analyst Edward Snowden said it was shutting down Thursday, explaining in a cryptic message that it would rather go out of business than "become complicit in crimes against the American people."

From http://lavabit.com/

My Fellow Users,

I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit. After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations. I wish that I could legally share with you the events that led to my decision. I cannot. I feel you deserve to know what’s going on--the first amendment is supposed to guarantee me the freedom to speak out in situations like this. Unfortunately, Congress has passed laws that say otherwise. As things currently stand, I cannot share my experiences over the last six weeks, even though I have twice made the appropriate requests.

What’s going to happen now? We’ve already started preparing the paperwork needed to continue to fight for the Constitution in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. A favorable decision would allow me resurrect Lavabit as an American company.

This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.

Sincerely,
Ladar Levison
Owner and Operator, Lavabit LLC

Defending the constitution is expensive! Help us by donating to the Lavabit Legal Defense Fund here.

Wolferz

08-09-13, 03:42 PM

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/Wolferz_2007/baghdadbob.jpg

Why does Lavabit need legal defense?

Wxman

08-09-13, 04:17 PM

Russia "disappointed" bilateral talks with US cancelled (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/23608052)
BBC News (US & Canada)
7 August 2013 Last updated at 17:10 ET

...Russian foreign affairs adviser Yuri Ushakov said on Wednesday...

..."This decision is clearly linked to the situation with former agent of US special services [Edward] Snowden, which hasn't been created by us," he said during a phone conference with the press.

"For many years, the Americans have avoided signing an extradition agreement," Mr Ushakov said, "And they have invariably responded negatively to our requests for extradition of people who committed crimes on the territory of Russia, pointing at the absence of such agreement."

"Russian representatives are ready to continue working together with American partners on all key issues on the bilateral and multilateral agenda," Mr Ushakov said

"For many years, the Americans have avoided signing an extradition agreement," Mr Ushakov said, "And they have invariably responded negatively to our requests for extradition of people who committed crimes on the territory of Russia, pointing at the absence of such agreement."

But he added the invitation for the bilateral summit was still open.

"Russian representatives are ready to continue working together with American partners on all key issues on the bilateral and multilateral agenda," Mr Ushakov said.

The decision to cancel the talks, announced during a trip by the US president to Los Angeles...[to make an appearance on the Jay Leno evening chat-show?]

...in which he condemned a newly enacted anti-gay law in Russia.

"I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them," Mr Obama said...

Its a real shame when the Russians make more sense than the American pResident in the White House. So essentially the matter boils down to being an issue concerning homosexuals? What a staggering baffoon and unmitigated walking disaster.

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu179/odin2009/WHAT2_zps4cac9541.jpg

Wxman

08-09-13, 04:31 PM

The fallout over the Snowden affair is a symptom of a much more fundamental crisis in US-Russia relations that has continued despite the effort during Mr Obama's first term to "reset" relations with Moscow...

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/legacy/2009/03/660/371/button_clinton_030609.jpg?ve=1

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton learned that lesson the hard way Friday when she presented Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov with a gift bearing an incorrect translation -- one that implied hostility, rather than peacemaking.

Clinton presented Lavrov with a gift-wrapped red button, which said "Reset" in English and "Peregruzka" in Russian. The problem was, "peregruzka" doesn't mean reset. It means overcharged, or overloaded.

And Lavrov called her out on it.

SEE: Clinton Goofs on Russian Translation, Tells Diplomat She Wants to 'Overcharge' Ties (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/06/clinton-goofs-russian-translation-tells-diplomat-wants-overcharge-ties/)

Obama's Blockbuster Gift for Brown: 25 DVDs (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/06/obamas-blockbuster-gift-brown-dvds/)

...Brown, who is not known to be a movie buff, gave the president and his children several uniquely historical gifts.

a pen holder fashioned from the oak timber of HMS Gannet, a Navy vessel that served on anti-slavery missions off Africa
a framed commissioning paper for the HMS Resolute, a Royal Navy ship that came to symbolize British-American goodwill when it was rescued by the U.S. from icebergs and given to Queen Victoria. It is the sister ship of the HMS Gannet.
a first edition of Martin Gilbert's seven-volume biography of Winston Churchill, whose World War II partnership with President Franklin Roosevelt symbolized the U.S.-Anglo alliance.
For Sasha and Malia, Sarah Brown, the Prime Minister's wife, gave each

an outfit from Topshop, a British chain of clothing stores
selected six children's books by British authors which have yet to be published in the U.S.

...The prime minister's reaction to the DVD set is not known.

That notwithstanding, its actually the gift that keeps on giving though: the DVD region code blocked the British Prime Minister from enjoying Obama's gift.

The prime minister's reaction to the DVD region code for the DVD set gifted to him blocking his viewing pleasure is not known.

Ducimus

08-09-13, 04:41 PM

I always though the whole concept of "lets hit the reset button" was ludicrious. As if to magically forget everything that happened in the past, or like it's a video game and you get another life, or reload a saved game and try something over.

Sadly, that's not how real life works. So i though the whole "reset" language being used by this administration was both nieve and laughable.

Mittelwaechter

08-12-13, 07:50 AM

Mittelwaechter

08-14-13, 02:37 PM

From a NYT interview with Edward Snowden:

Why did you seek out Laura and Glenn, rather than journalists from major American news outlets (N.Y.T., W.P., W.S.J. etc.)?

Edward Snowden: After 9/11, many of the most important news outlets in America abdicated their role as a check to power — the journalistic responsibility to challenge the excesses of government — for fear of being seen as unpatriotic and punished in the market during a period of heightened nationalism. From a business perspective, this was the obvious strategy, but what benefited the institutions ended up costing the public dearly. The major outlets are still only beginning to recover from this cold period.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/snowden-maass-transcript.html

Made my day.

Catfish

08-14-13, 03:48 PM

^ Very good article..
:hmm2:

Wolferz

08-14-13, 09:15 PM

If you are interested in a different, special point of view concerning the administration's response to the NSA surveillance leaks, how the public and the Congress is totally disinformed about the facts and how the administration slowly turns mad about the whole issue.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130810/09240524136/jennifer-hoelzers-insiders-view-administrations-response-to-nsa-surveillance-leaks.shtml

The best quote from that article has to be from the 1960 report issued by the House Committee on Operations...
" Secrecy -- the first refuge of incompetents -- must be at a bare minimum in a democratic society for a fully informed public is the basis of self government. Those elected or appointed to positions of executive authority must recognize that government, in a democracy, cannot be wiser than its people. "

That idea alone still holds true today, 53 years later. Especially when you consider the world political climate in that era.

Skybird

08-15-13, 06:10 AM

Einstein said something like that the kind of thinking that created a problem cannot be expected to solve that problem.

Wolferz

08-15-13, 09:39 AM

There's the operative word in all of this..."thinking" Something todays politicos are in very short supply of.

Ignorant knee jerks the lot of them!

Mittelwaechter

08-16-13, 03:12 AM

Skybird

08-16-13, 01:27 PM

Goooood mooorning Vietn...

Wait.

No, start again.

Gooood mooorning America!

LINK: NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html)

LINK: Court: Ability to police U.S. spying program limited (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/court-ability-to-police-us-spying-program-limited/2013/08/15/4a8c8c44-05cd-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html)

Donate your privacy. It's for a good cause: the control of the fatherland! :yeah:

Wolferz

08-16-13, 03:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui3KpztUzVg

Lavabit owner talks about the shutdown of his encrypted email service, probably used by Edward Snowden. He can't speak freely, because he is forced by the government to keep the information out of public.

I don't know if it was the same e-mail service or not but, there was one awhile back that had one of their servers stolen by the FBI. They installed a CCTV camera at the server farm prior to replacing the server and caught the FBI agents putting the stolen server back in its rack about a week later. The agents were confronted and offered no explanation and no search warrant for the seizure. Part of PRISM I would suspect because the encrypted E-mail service catered to dissidents in other countries who would be murdered by their governments if their communications were intercepted.

Mittelwaechter

08-16-13, 04:35 PM

As far as I understand, this measure is not only an American problem. The police enters our homes secretly and manipulates our computers or leaves surveillance items behind. Our governmental trojan has to be installed that way, if they can't make their suspects to install it over some software from the internet. They say, they have to have a go from the jurisdiction, but the judges are way too busy to check every request for it's justification with proper earnestness. They stamp it and leave it to the police to make it right.

My problem right now is, whoever I talk to about the situation, they are unaware, uninformed, bored or they simply igrnore it. No motivation to act at all. They seem to be surprized and don't believe to be able to fight or even see the problem.

The whole system is out of control and the people are not willing to change anything.
Even the young folks, who are severly compromized in their communication, seem to accept the surveillance, because they believe to be protected by the government this way. As long as they don't feel directly hit, they go on with their daily routine.

I think, if our government would start again to deport and erase some minority, no one would care at all. This law and order spirit would make them ignore the measures, make them assume, they must be justified somehow, or the action would never happen in our state of law.

We have turned into a totalitarian surveillance and police state and there is very little to no resistance. The police is acting more and more independant from the law and they are rarely brought to justice, even if they violate the law obviously. I think this is a symptom of trying to keep the people calm in times of potential uprise. They shall fear the police to be entitled to use force wherever they think fit.

Resistance is only a few, without means to press a claim.
I guess it must turn worse first, before a majority will gather enough momentum and motivation to try change the system into a better one. Force will have to be used.

Then we will see blood and thunder. I don't like it.

Wolferz

08-16-13, 07:51 PM

It's a conundrum Mittelwaechter. No doubt about that. When people give up their rights or fail to protect them, the next step is slavery.
Hopefully I won't be around to see it.

Mittelwaechter

08-18-13, 04:50 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/glenn-greenwald-guardian-partner-detained-heathrow

It gets more and more absurd and the law enforcment executives show their power to do whatever they want, wherever they want to whoever they want.

You are connected to someone who is connected to someone suspected? Be careful, you may be victim to your state or another state anytime. They go personal and try to intimidate you and your friends.

Are you willing to accept this? Will you continue to look away?

Wolferz

08-18-13, 08:07 PM

Tribesman

08-19-13, 08:04 AM

Another take on the Greenwald story.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/08/18/cameron-proves-greenwald-right/

Catfish

08-19-13, 11:05 AM

I take it the fight has just begun, some german protesters let some toy drones fly near a NSA installation in Berlin - they were instantly arrested by german police.
The next move will be some hundred toy helis "violating" (lmao) US air space.

But i had a real brilliant idea:
If the NSA listens to ALL my telephone calls, internet activities and physical moves, wouldn't it be a good idea they also paid my telephone bill :hmm2:

Wolferz

08-19-13, 05:27 PM

Mittelwaechter

08-19-13, 09:17 PM

British GCHQ destroys hard drives at the Guardian Newspaper.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/19/david-miranda-schedule7-danger-reporters

"And so one of the more bizarre moments in the Guardian's long history occurred – with two GCHQ security experts overseeing the destruction of hard drives in the Guardian's basement just to make sure there was nothing in the mangled bits of metal which could possibly be of any interest to passing Chinese agents. "We can call off the black helicopters," joked one as we swept up the remains of a MacBook Pro."

Spark No.1...

Wolferz

08-19-13, 09:50 PM

Mittelwaechter

08-20-13, 12:18 PM

We may see a little fight between two supporting systems of our true regents.

Media and the secrecy branch go into clinch. Media will start to use its power to uncover some disgusting secrets and the black hats will start to chop up media rights.

My hope is, we will gather enough motivated ones during the battle to roll the whole mess downhill. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/piratey.gif

Catfish

08-20-13, 12:49 PM

Mittelwaechter

08-20-13, 01:20 PM

Not sure what's going on right now...

The true regents - our owners - use the state apparatus as a tool to rule the people.
The state has a special branch - the secrecy branch - to spy on the people.
But now they spy on the regents too. An unwanted feed back loop has been established.

Additionally the regents are no homogenous group but a wild pack of wolves with own interests on the prey.
They gather to hunt down the tax money but are well aware of their competition for dominance.

The military industry is one of these wolves and now in special cooperation with the secrecy branch.
They have information available about all the other regents and they managed to get the dominant part of the taxmoney - directly in the US and more indirectly in Europe.
They make their business not with private persons, but with states who pay with taxmoney.
Therefore they have to create a constant demand on weapons. One way is to stay in war, destroy weapons to sell new ones - and another is to frighten tax payers around the globe.
Al Qaida and global terror are the tools of choice - under control of the secret services - mastered by the military.
A third way is to sell weapons on credit and make other tax payers to guarantee for the credit (Europe).

The military economy and its secret services grew dominant - at least equal to the finance masters.
They will overrule them due to their advantage on information.

The media - a tool of the rulers to manipulate the people - is not under control of the military nor the secret services.
They are tool of the media regents - compagnion of the other regents - with the special task to provide wide accepted truth and motivation.

We observe the media to be in clinch with the secret services right now. Trying to provide peoples motivation against the secret services surveillance.
A proxy war between the regents pack and the military alpha wolf - for tax money and against the unwanted espionage feed back loop?

Wolferz

08-20-13, 01:25 PM

Butt sniffing dogs should be shot on sight.:shucks:

Skybird

08-20-13, 01:46 PM

This thing with the Guardian is unbelievable :nope:
So much as for western democracy.
In german reports was said the british government itself applied pressure to the Guardian, to destroy evidence. Yeah it seems the real powers in being are taking us downhill to the black side, and fast. But I don't think of media and politicians as 'powers' here.

I wonder what this evidence in the Guardian building was about :hmm2:

It was not about the stuff on the HDs, you can be certain. The GCHQ knows as well as any teen in front of a PC that it is so easy to make digital copies of digital data. So, that data most likely has not been destroyed at all. And GCHQ knows that.

Nevertheless they insisted on a display of physical force applied.- That is a psychological lesson taught, and has little to do with the data's content. It was about visualising a means of intimidation.

Not Snowden's data are the goal of this act, but the effort to silence free press, to intimidate journalists.

GCHQ stands for "Government's Communication Headquarter". Der Name ist Programm. It shall be the government's communication, and the government's alone. No other sources of free, independent information.

The White Housetries the same in Washington.

In Germany, politicians by routine try to prevent the broadcasting of TV material that they do not like, and try to put pressure on the various Intendanten. Plus that the posts of the Intendanten is bitterly fought over by politicians, to make sure they get the names that are in line with their party's propaganda.

Not TV news - government-conformal propaganda.

Wolferz

08-20-13, 07:31 PM

It's those damned lizard people I tell ya!:shifty:

Skybird

08-21-13, 05:33 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/20/nsa-snowden-files-drives-destroyed-london

Skybird

08-21-13, 06:08 AM

A German interview with Greenwald where he confirms his assessment that governments abuse the fight against terror for securing more power over their people for themselves and that the action ordered by Cameron to physically destroy hard drives, or to hold his partner in arrest for 9 hours where they could have taken his USB sticks in 9 minutes, is not about controlling the material (which is globally distributed already), but is about personal intimidation in order to gag journalists and silence free press. He also says that he likes that Snowden keeps a low profile and does not appear in the media, that way his intention and the material he leaked is being focussed on, not the person. He regrets that instead he himself - Greenwald - now has been focussed on by the media, but that it is neither intended nor that he has control over that.

http://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2013-08/interview-glenn-greenwald/komplettansicht

In Vietnam there was this US general who said that in order to save the village they had to destroy it. I think they are doing the same with freedom and civil rights and free press now, and call it "fight against terror".

August

08-21-13, 11:31 AM

It's those damned lizard people I tell ya!:shifty:

Shhh, you'll spook him! :)

Ducimus

08-21-13, 11:43 AM

Skybird

08-21-13, 01:00 PM

Well, the mass that people are will not follow reasonable dcisons, even if the argument illustrating the reaosnability is laid out before there eyes, but they will follow different natural laws of human behaviour, psychological laws. And on these laws of behaviour, which are really frightening if you consider their reach and the power and inflou7enc eover man, there still is maybe no better work ever being written than this old one from 1895, by Gustave Le Bon: "Psychologie des foules" (in German "Die Psychologie der Massen", in English "The crowd. A study of the popular mind"). It's one of the best, most influential and most profound books ever written in the whole branch of psychology. This bible of mass manipulation has served many dictators, agitators, propagandists, lobbyists and last but not least: ordinary politicians greatly.

Two editions:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Crowd-Study-Popular-Mind/dp/1483926141/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377107392&sr=8-1&keywords=Gustave+Le+Bon

http://www.amazon.com/The-Crowd-Study-Popular-Mind/dp/1475035020/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1377107392&sr=8-2&keywords=Gustave+Le+Bon

What is a great and realistic, unsentimental observation of the mechanism for installing and persevering political power, is Machiavelli's "Discorsi". I hold Machiavelli in high esteem, for one has to realize he did not give recommendations for moral or immoral behavior, but what he did was giving as objective as he could an observation of what political behavior achieves what results, without commenting these results. He was the first real political scientist, so to speak. Not always right, but far more competent and uncorrupted, unsentimental and precise than many academical political scientists today. I think the discorsi are more profound than "The prince", but maybe that is due to the wider focus. Sharp observations of the mechanisms of power-politics they are both.

These two together are one of the reasons why I am usually anything but optimistic about the behaviour of crowds in democracies, and why I dislike crowds - the canaille - so very much. And why I think hat politicians will not be stopped by "us", the so-called people, at least not before anything is too late anyway.

They say that Goebbels always carried a copy of Le Bon with him. Maybe that is a story only, but he certainly had studied him for sure. And look what he was capable to achieve in manipulating the huge crowds!

Mittelwaechter

08-23-13, 02:10 PM

Regain control at all costs.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/23/uk-government-independent-military-base

Skybird

08-25-13, 06:04 PM

The Guardian is widening the support basis for its Snowden material reporting. After German Der Spiegel, cooperation with the New York Times has been formally announced regarding the Snowden material.

Meanwhile, the latest revelation regarding the Snowden material comes from Der Spiegel, quoting that the NSA has routinely spied on the UN's highest offices and bodies by having bugged the room sin the building which was fully renovated some time ago - an opportunity to have mikes and wires installed durting the construction phase. It is also quoted that the NSA has full access to the internal computer, server and comm system of the UN building.

If true, this is a violation of a treaty from 1947 in which the US guaranteed the immunity of the UN offices so that right this kind of spying would not happen.

It was the German Spiegel edition. Let's see if they bring it in their international edition tomorrow, too.

eddie

08-25-13, 10:31 PM

Already out over here Skybird,lol These guys at the NSA are out of control!!:nope:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/25/20185516-report-us-hacked-into-un-video-conferencing-spied-on-eu?lite

Jimbuna

08-26-13, 04:32 AM

The plot thickens almost daily...must be very embarrassing for them.

Skybird

08-26-13, 07:18 AM

Already out over here Skybird,lol These guys at the NSA are out of control!!:nope:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/25/20185516-report-us-hacked-into-un-video-conferencing-spied-on-eu?lite

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-nsa-documents-show-how-the-us-spies-on-europe-and-the-un-a-918625.html

Catfish

08-26-13, 12:54 PM

The plot thickens almost daily...must be very embarrassing for them.

Oh yes, i feel my heart breaking. 'Some' of the NSA members obviously used the system to spy and stalk girls.

http://storify.com/klischka/nsapickuplines
NSA pickuplines, it began as a joke until they realized it wasn't:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-sometimes-spy-on-love-interests/?mod=e2tw

"NSA officials have maintained that all surveillance programs have operated within the confines of the law."

Oh sure, now i believe you.
:rotfl2:

How low can this get ? Is there a british word that expresses more than 'contempt' ? :hmm2:

Wolferz

08-26-13, 01:02 PM

Oh yes, i feel my heart breaking. 'Some' of the NSA members obviously used the system to spy and stalk girls.

http://storify.com/klischka/nsapickuplines
NSA pickuplines, it began as a joke until they realized it wasn't:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/08/23/nsa-officers-sometimes-spy-on-love-interests/?mod=e2tw

"NSA officials have maintained that all surveillance programs have operated within the confines of the law."

Oh sure, now i believe you.
:rotfl2:

How low can this get ? Is there a british word that expresses more than 'contempt' ? :hmm2:

Contempt is a middle English word.:know: If you're looking for a synonym...
misprision is a good one.:up: Or let's coin a new one: "misprism"

Catfish

08-26-13, 01:15 PM

Contempt is a middle English word.:know: If you're looking for a synonym...
misprision is a good one.:up: Or let's coin a new one: "misprism"

Thanks :)
Or looking at GCHQ's program "O tempora, o mores" :O:

But it's not so funny then.

"Die Angelsachsen" ...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/angelsachsen_zps67464c82.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/angelsachsen_zps67464c82.jpg.html)

Jimbuna

08-26-13, 03:16 PM

How low can this get ? Is there a british word that expresses more than 'contempt' ? :hmm2:

Revulsion maybe?

Catfish

08-26-13, 03:50 PM

Yes there might be some revulsion in it, too. Especially when some of those nice protecting people use it to survey friends, stalking them with what they call 'Lovint'.
Where is that puke smiley when you need it.

These 'services' really seem to be afraid, of their own people :shifty:

Wolferz

08-26-13, 04:08 PM

If chasing tail is good enough for the secret Service, it's good enough for the CIA/NSA.:up:
Yes sir! The oversight is working just great!:88)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/Wolferz_2007/cid__68197_286823661460901_1436920810_n_.jpg

Oh, wait, they said they foiled some terrorist plots. I guess they don't realize that secrecy is a symptom of liars.

Wolferz

08-26-13, 09:01 PM

:hmmm:How Snowden pulled the caper... Gaping holes in NSA systems security...
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/26/20197183-how-snowden-did-it?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1
It almost seems like they were daring someone to steal their dirty little secrets.:hmmm:

Oberon

08-26-13, 09:08 PM

Bugging the UN? That must have been the most boring job in the world. :doh:

Wolferz

08-29-13, 04:40 PM

Here's a little tidbit to blow your minds...
Type the word Illumanatti into your browser address bar backwards and hit enter. Let me know what you find.

Takeda Shingen

08-29-13, 04:46 PM

Here's a little tidbit to blow your minds...
Type the word Illumanatti into your browser address bar backwards and hit enter. Let me know what you find.

Surely you're jesting. A man could not possibly reach your age and be this naïve.

Wolferz

08-29-13, 04:52 PM

Surely you're jesting. A man could not possibly reach your age and be this naïve.

What did you find, other than an excuse to mildly berate me?:hmmm:

C'mon, tell me what popped up on your monitor.

Takeda Shingen

08-29-13, 04:55 PM

What did you find, other than an excuse to mildly berate me?:hmmm:

I found a website registered to John Fenley via GoDaddy.com back in 2009 that directs to the NSA website. No doubt Mr. Fenley has been getting chuckles about it for the past few years. I've also found links to a series of sites and forums dating back several years that debunk the myth.

Seriously?

Dowly

08-29-13, 05:04 PM

Here's a little tidbit to blow your minds...
Type the word Illumanatti into your browser address bar backwards and hit enter. Let me know what you find.

REDRUM! REDRUM!

Seriously?

:sign_yeah:

Wolferz

08-29-13, 05:15 PM

I found a website registered to John Fenley via GoDaddy.com back in 2009 that directs to the NSA website. No doubt Mr. Fenley has been getting chuckles about it for the past few years. I've also found links to a series of sites and forums dating back several years that debunk the myth.

Seriously?

That's kind of funny. In a way. What I got was a listing of links with the link to the NSA.gov website at the top of the list. I still find it odd that the NSA would allow that to happen. Unless of course they think it's funny too.:haha:
I didn't type the .com suffix on the word, so I really didn't go to Mr. Fenley' GoDaddy website in order to be redirected to the NSA website. I just found the links.

Still think I'm naïve? You're free to do so.

Tchocky

08-29-13, 05:37 PM

You can't control who links to your page.

Nobody "allowed" this to happen.

You're not being berated here - the response is appropriate to the level of intelligence in the original post.

Wolferz

08-29-13, 09:05 PM

You can't control who links to your page.

Nobody "allowed" this to happen.

You're not being berated here - the response is appropriate to the level of intelligence in the original post.

You really shouldn't talk about Jimbuna like that. :03:

Yes, all of us can be a dee dee dee on occasion.:O::haha:
I'm no exception, nor ever claimed to be.:D

I wondered why my ideetentee card was automatically renewed this year.:88)

Skybird

09-01-13, 05:17 AM

Transparency International has awarded Snowden it's organisation award. The Laudatio of the ceremony in Germany was held by Sonya Seymor Mikich, known from German TV, she is moderating an investigative journalistic magazine in the prime program and is its editor-in-chief. Usually I switch channels when I stumble over her, I cannot stand her, not her style of presentationand also not many of her views as far as one can conclude on them by her program. That she is quite left-leaning does not make her more sympathetic to me.

But where she is right, she's right. I cannot help it, but where she is right, she is right.

And this is the case in this 20 minutes laudatio, held in German, I still do not like the way she presents herself and her lecturing manner, but I have to agree with what she has to say, and I agree very much so. So for this event: well said, Mrs. Mikich! :up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGgVw5qX0L4

Snowden meanwhile has revealed the financial founding of the NSA, and what allocations there are for what purposes, with anti-terror only being one third. He also shows that the spending has doubled since 9/11. It's roughly twice as big as the German military budget, I think.

Black finances even are not included in the revelation, as far as I understood the reports. These are just the white numbers!