Syria - Another Red Line

[Armistead]

Seems Syria is using chemical weapons, which was another famous political red line. John McCain is raging to do something, but he's a warmonger. So what should we do if anything, no fly zone, leave it to the UN?

Many of the rebels are radical terroist, I don't see how we arm the rebels. To me, this is a no win situation for the US, best we stay out of it.

[Catfish]

Fresh news from radio transmitter Gleiwitz .. :hmm2:

[Red October1984]

To me, this is a no win situation for the US, best we stay out of it.

We don't know how to do that. :nope:

[Wolferz]

Send in the Clones.

[Skybird]

So far neither France, wo claimed the use of chemicals last week, nor the US have given, released, demonstrated their evidence.

Obama is weaseling so far, wanting to be seen as not avoiding his (extremely stupid) red line statement, but also not getting engaged in a seriously meant military operation.

Delivering some rebel groups light infantry weapons, will not score a change in the course the conflict now is going. Only anti air capacity could give them that. However, giving them robust and modern AW missiles, is out of the question. It is stupid to deliver any of the factions there modern weapons, they will end up getting pointed at Israel and Western soldiers sooner or later.

Leaves the enforcement of a no fly zone. The Russian will love it, and it could end with US and Russian units exchanging fire. Russia can influence things regarding the Western state of things in Afghanistan, but probably cannot stand a robust military confrontation in the Med. If they could, than the role of the US in the Med should be considered as over since a long time now.

I personally would - if I am forced to give any assistance - chose the no fly zone, and play it rockhard on the Russians, they have no moral argument after the messy role they played in Syria. Before that, I would pull out my US troops from Afghanistan, and that means: in a hurried rush. If some endlessly wellmeaning Europeans still want to stay there after I (as the US) had left, then let them: they should have understood by now what time the clocks are showing there. The naval assets of 6th fleet and its carriers should enable the US to run a flight zone operation by itself, even without NATO support. If it cannot, then one would wonder what role the 6th ever hoped to play in any war in the Med anyway. Regarding the Russians: to hell with them. I would not cry to see them loosing their base in Syria.

The light weapons delivery now hinted at by the US, could as well be payed for by the Saudis, why the US tax payer should pay the bill, is beyond me.

Damn Hezbollah, their fighters gain plenty of combat experience and they really made the difference in favour of Assad, and brought the war back on Assad's track. Should be a great warning to Israel. They should have gone extinct in 2006.

Why the West should favour the rebels to gain the upper hands, I still cannot see, however. They are as brutal and barbaric as the regime, it seems to me.

[Oberon]

Have those S-300s landed in Syria yet? Could make an NFZ messy to implement.

[Catfish]

So far neither France, wo claimed the use of chemicals last week, nor the US have given, released, demonstrated their evidence.

No problem, just insert another text and country (dubbing):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYBA9JD5oW4&list=PLTtBt8lmUoe_fVffnyUlYip-uaOmF2y2w


On a more serious note, i am not sure any other regime after Assad will be better - if you look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt etc..
And Assad protected the christian population .. not going unnoticed by certain groups there.

Let's just hope with Russia's and other's interests Syria will not become another Serbia ..

[WernherVonTrapp]

...John McCain is raging to do something, but he's a warmonger...
Obama moves to arm Syrian rebels as Assad gains upper hand:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-move-to-arm-syrian-rebels-comes-as-assad-gains-upper-hand/2013/06/14/eb55de58-d500-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html

US says it will arm Syrian rebels following chemical weapons tests:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/syria-chemical-weapons-us-confirm

Hezbollah leader says will keep fighting in Syria:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/14/us-syria-crisis-hezbollah-idUSBRE95D0P820130614

[Skybird]

Have those S-300s landed in Syria yet? Could make an NFZ messy to implement.
Probably not, Israeli experts said that Assad was just boasting, and that training of the crew would take several months, and that Israeli intel seems to be at ease - which seems to indicate that the missiles, different to Assad'S claim, so fra have not arrived.

Of course, enforcing an NFZ includes to take out any AD that could interfere. I though that must not be mentioned.

A german newspaper this morning mentioned those 3 or 4 submarines the US have changed to be cruise missile carriers, with huge numbers of missiles aboard. These could sweep airfields and missile sites before fighters start to patrol.

And what about drones - rumour says they became quite popular recently...

[Betonov]

Let's just hope with Russia's and other's interests Syria will not become another Serbia ..

Slowly becoming a region powerhouse despite corruption and crime ??
Russia helped Serbia while europe was treating it like a foreign policy punching bag. Nationalism is still going strong there because after the wars it was still being attacked from all sides. Something the Russians actually tried to calm down whille europe and US were doing the best they could to even increase internal tensions.

Syria would do very well to become another Serbia. Post Millosevich that is

[mapuc]

Remembering an article made by an danish politician and coming from Syria Naser Khader.

He's working hard for us to give the right side of the fighting groups weapons. They should according to him, be for a democracy Syria with free election free speech a.s.o

If every of these fighting groups had the same thought of where they want Syria to be in the future, then I see no problems giving them support of any kind.

However....from what I have seen and heard from different news agency it's the opposite-about 95% of those who's fighting Assad, want's a sharia government in Syria.

I say as Skybird do-Stay out of this mess

Markus

[Schroeder]

I say we should completely stay out of it. We have no business down there and I really don't see why I should prefer one side over the other!:shifty:
But it seems we never learn from past mistakes.:/\\!!

[HW3]

:agree:

Every time we stick our nose into another country's business, it comes back bloody.

:subsim:

[Red October1984]

The Middle East needs Natural Selection in a bad way. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Probably not, Israeli experts said that Assad was just boasting, and that training of the crew would take several months, and that Israeli intel seems to be at ease - which seems to indicate that the missiles, different to Assad'S claim, so fra have not arrived.

Of course, enforcing an NFZ includes to take out any AD that could interfere. I though that must not be mentioned.

A german newspaper this morning mentioned those 3 or 4 submarines the US have changed to be cruise missile carriers, with huge numbers of missiles aboard. These could sweep airfields and missile sites before fighters start to patrol.

And what about drones - rumour says they became quite popular recently...


Well, true, the S-300 isn't exactly a golden shield, but it would probably be one of the most recently made weapons systems the US has gone up against since at least the Serbian war I'd have said, off hand that is.
TLAMs are always a popular opening method in western wars, so they'll probably start with those, and take the S-300s out before they are even ready to roll.
I doubt Russia will do anything other than grumble (pardon the pun (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-300pmu.htm)) and likewise China. They can't really still be seen to support Assad if clear and incontravertable evidence that he is using chemical weapons comes to light, which admittedly it has not yet, but they're working on it, be sure. :haha:

[Mittelwaechter]

http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/

NATO data: 70% of the Syrians back Assad, 20% neutral (watch the stronger win), 10% for jihadists.

http://rt.com/news/sarin-gas-turkey-al-nusra-021/

Who would benefit from a mysterious gas attack in Syria?

Who would absolutly try to avoid any foreign support for the jihadists?
Especially when equipped with superior weapons anyway.

Sapere aude!

[_dgn_]

If it's good for American business, Obama can give (or sell) arms to the "rebels".

But it would be necessary that he prepares an US replacement (or spare) ambassador for the future ("liberated") Syria ...

Cheers.

[mookiemookie]

:agree:

Every time we stick our nose into another country's business, it comes back bloody.

:subsim:

Give this man a cigar. Why we insist on making the same mistakes we've been making for the past 60 years is beyond me.

[Mittelwaechter]

Cui bono?

Who gets the billions of tax money spent for these mistakes?

Follow the money and you'll find the hands pulling the strings.

[Wolferz]

The warmongers have the propaganda machine running at 110%. Looking for any excuse to drag us into another conflict where we have no business whatsoever. It's a civil war after all.

The main questions are...
What's in it for us?
What do we gain by helping them?
How bad will the backlash be if we do?

The answers...
Nothing
Nothing
Don't want to go there.

What most don't seem to realize in regard to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is the reason for that involvement... Opium.

Iraq is a major overland shipping route for Opium from Turkey to ports in the Persian Gulf.
Afghanistan was a major producer of Opium Poppies until the Taliban shut it down.
The drug czars (Skull & Bones) that have infiltrated the highest levels of the US government couldn't tolerate the interruption of their trade. A trade that they wrestled away from the East India Trading Company back in the 1700's with the use of faster sailing ships built by William H Russell of Connecticut. The founder of Skull and Bones.
China is the major market for the illegal Opium trade. Possibly the reason why we're so buddy buddy with them?

[Oberon]

What most don't seem to realize in regard to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is the reason for that involvement... Opium.

Iraq is a major overland shipping route for Opium from Turkey to ports in the Persian Gulf.
Afghanistan was a major producer of Opium Poppies until the Taliban shut it down.
The drug czars (Skull & Bones) that have infiltrated the highest levels of the US government couldn't tolerate the interruption of their trade. A trade that they wrestled away from the East India Trading Company back in the 1700's with the use of faster sailing ships built by William H Russell of Connecticut. The founder of Skull and Bones.
China is the major market for the illegal Opium trade. Possibly the reason why we're so buddy buddy with them?

:o

http://www.openmarket.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/south-park-took-our-jobs.png


http://history.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/upfiles/2009-11/10/first_opium_war09da0eacd2f3df652ee2.jpg

[Mittelwaechter]

Our employers offered them our jobs, because these migrant workers are satisfied with much less.
First they traveled into foreign countries for work, and today additionally the work can be outsourced to them.

Support the free flow of trading goods, of labour and money.

Support globalization! F... our society.

Profit optimization and shareholder value first.

[mapuc]

You know what's the biggest problem?

Our politician do not listen to our excellent suggestion we try to give them.

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

Report from Qusair - you may want to use a translator
(FAZ - major German newspaper from Frankfurt)

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/naher-osten/syrien-waffenlager-in-der-kirche-12218417.html

@mapuc
Our politicians are totally occupied by lobbyists. No time to listen to voters.
It's not their job, by the way. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/36.gif
Lobbyists offer structured information and provide eloquent arguments to support their point of view. They offer to write the necessary laws and maybe even a future after the parliamentary term.
Voters are bad organized, they don't pay the dinner and a majority talks all in a tumble about personal experiences and problems with their neighbours.

[Catfish]

^ Well said.
@ FAZ - yeah seems like the perfect time to support the future djihadists, with arms :-?

And Mapuc also got it completely right. :up:

[Wolferz]

Keep the peoples distracted, divided and bickering amongst themselves and they will fail to notice us stealing them blind.
Lyrics to the political twostep

[mapuc]

This is not good news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/world-exclusive-iran-will-send-4000-troops-to-aid-bashar-alassads-forces-in-syria-8660358.html

Markus

[Tribesman]

This is not good news

This is as unexpected as tuesday being the day after monday.

[donna52522]

It's just another case of Democrats thinking words will do something, the world laughs at them, especially when those words are never backed up by actions.

[Skybird]

A - GERMAN LANGUAGE - analysis which I found extremely well thought out and really giving a good insight into the historicla background of Syria - and whzy Syria most oikely is breakig n apart into a mutli-factional territory beign fought over by 3-5 different ethnicities.

The historical background of how Syria was formed up and came into existence as "one nation", only rarely, if ever, gets called back to memory and reflected about in TV news, thus the many calls for "simple solutions". But the problem is not simple by nature at all, but is extremely complex. Too much thought for too little time between two commercials. And after the second spot the good night story about how the firebrigade rescued the cat from a tree, to make people feel well before going to bed.

[mapuc]

This is as unexpected as tuesday being the day after monday.

Almost true. Most of us had this feeling that it would not just be material Iran would send to Syria and help them fight the opposite.

What is bad news for me is they(Syria) are going to open a new front against Israel.

Markus

[Platapus]

Cui bono?


That is the very first question to be asked when reading these types of reports. :up:

[Platapus]

This is not good news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/world-exclusive-iran-will-send-4000-troops-to-aid-bashar-alassads-forces-in-syria-8660358.html

Markus


Good let Iran get bogged down in a political and economic quagmire for a change.

[Jimbuna]

Almost true. Most of us had this feeling that it would not just be material Iran would send to Syria and help them fight the opposite.

What is bad news for me is they(Syria) are going to open a new front against Israel.

Markus

I doubt the Israelis will be that bothered but will probably see it as an opportunity to confirm who is top of the pecking order.

[Tribesman]

Good let Iran get bogged down in a political and economic quagmire for a change.
Thats good on the surface, but the quagmire must of course include as well as Iran Iraq and Syria the oppositions allies, which means Saudi and the other gulf monarchies plus Turkey and maybe Egypt
That economic quagmire plays buggery with the world economy due to all the black stuff they produce and all the black stuff that transits the area.
The west still gets sucked into the political and economic quagmire regardless of if they deploy troops or not.

[Tribesman]

I doubt the Israelis will be that bothered but will probably see it as an opportunity to confirm who is top of the pecking order.
The Israelis do seem bothered enough to complain a lot about the Iranian arms shipments through Iraq to Assad and Hezballah.
As for the pecking order, their last big adventure to the north didn't confirm them very well at all(neither did the couple of previous rounds in that direction). Indeed it made their power and capabilities seem very stunted.