AI Radar = does it work at all

[Jace11]

I set up some test missions using heavy fog / night. I then added various DDs, FFs and COs, some with the latest equipment in a later war scenario 1944. CFG dates should mean these ships are equipped with Type271, 273 or 268 radar. I could sail alongside them in the fog at about 1k distance without any sign of being detected. This is very different from previous versions, SH3 and 4, where radar over-sensitivity could be a problem...

What is going on...?

I'm not sure its the AI_sensors.sim or the sim.cfg as I've tweaked both to maximize sensitivity...

Has anyone seen DDs coming over the horizon at them like in SH3? Is is model related...? i.e do the radars lack models in the ship parts file. Does airborne radar work (I get messages about radar signals now and again)...

[V13dweller]

I have been working around with this for a long time, most of this year.
I have been trying to get ships to use their radar's through fog.
They do use their radar's. But they only use them to find targets, not attack them.
I have been trying to get them to use them as fire directors, and fire through fog.
I have seen the Bismarck fire through fog on a few occasions but not anymore. The situation cannot be recreated by me.
If I can help in anyway, I can because I am very keen on getting the Radars to work properly.

I know for sure they actually work though, they can, and will find you using them.

To answer your question, they do, to a small extent. Not very well.

[Jace11]

Weird that you see that behavior. I have seen an escort chase me in fog, intermittently. (It was really tense actually!) that was a flower class CO.

I found the answer finally - unbelievable game error. Whats more amazing is no one has said anything yet there are countless mods that state to improve AI behavior with tweaks to radar sensitivity and detection times etc. Yet because of this error most escorts DONT HAVE RADAR at all!!! I'll have to check aircraft too!!!

FFS!!

[V13dweller]

No Airplanes have radar.

I have checked already, they just use their visual sensor.

They have an R01 node so they can have a Radar equipped.

[Fifi]

They should! Later in war of course...never checked it, cause never pass over first campaign yet :haha:

[V13dweller]

I am very determined to make the radar work, because they Radar's are used to find targets, but I have only witnessed the Bismarck ship fire through the fog, but I cannot seem to get it to happen it again.

All the ships I arm with radar's just use it to find and locate targets, but only attack once in visual sight. And this is very frustrating.

[Trevally.]

Whats more amazing is no one has said anything yet there are countless mods that state to improve AI behavior with tweaks to radar sensitivity and detection times etc. Yet because of this error most escorts DONT HAVE RADAR at all!!!

I am looking forward to your mod that fixes this when you release it:up:


I will add a link to this in http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=190656

[V13dweller]

I have been digging through the files and running tests today, the results show that the Radar's do work but what they can do is very limited.

The ships as I said before, only use the radar to locate an enemy and then attack them once in visual range, and that in heavy fog (Fog 3) Is too close.

There must a be a setting or something that allows them to shoot through the fog, something at allows the Radar to take them place of the visual.

Or something like that.

[Jace11]

Try your tests with individual classes.

A class, B class, VW class, Black Swan, Clemson, Town, Fletcher, Evarts, Buckley will not detect you.

Tribal, Rocket (R-class), Flower and I think Somers and Soldati radars work OK.

Reason: the first set of ships have GR2 models that do not have R01 nodes (except the Fletcher, but this is occupied by the Mk37 director which has no game sensor data). So any R01 sensor entries in the .sns file are irrelevant if no node of that name is present on the ship!

Solution: Use unused nodes like C01, D01 etc to add radar nodes as most ships have these, or do what I did and clone a new R01 node on the missing ships!. While at it, give US ships US radar and vice versa.

Also regarding radar, maybe someone can advise me on this...

Is this premise correct:

If the wavelength of a Type 271 is 100mm and wavelength is a direct function of surface area detected 100mm x 100 mm = 0.01 m2

But in stock game files default is 0.3 m2.

Sensor entries in the AI_sensors library appear to be used in preference to the ones in the sim.cfg. Not sure if this is true for the surface area detected.

[gap]

...any R01 sensor entries in the .sns file are irrelevant if no node of that name is present on the ship!

Elementary, my dear Watson :03: :up:


Is this premise correct:

If the wavelength of a Type 271 is 100mm and wavelength is a direct function of surface area detected 100mm x 100 mm = 0.01 m2

Your assumption seems logical, though minimum detectable area might be also affected by a bunch of other factors, including how reflective to radiations is the target surface.


Sensor entries in the AI_sensors library appear to be used in preference to the ones in the sim.cfg. Not sure if this is true for the surface area detected.

Talking about min surface, I guess both sim.cfg and sim file settings are applied. As I see it, "Enemy surface factor" in sim.cfg file is sort of a global factor which gets multiplied by the individual surface property of each radar. :hmm2:

[V13dweller]

I will do some tests today to see if I can get any more radars to work.

And what to the C and D nodes do?
I have tried putting Radars onto the C01 and D01 nodes, but I cannot seem to get them to work.

I think the in game radar system needs an overhaul.
I will be willing to help with it.

Does anyone have a stock Sim.cfg?
I might have a look through that to find more info on the game radars.

Also a stock Guns Radars .sim could help.

I even decreased the minimum surface factor to 0.0001 and the ship still did not effectively use it's radar.
It just used it to locate and attack the target once in range.


Some ships also have multiple Radar nodes, like R01 and R02, and the Bismarck has the R03.
Even with this devastating array of sensors, it still can not effectively use them to target and attack using just the radar.

[Jace11]

Not sure what C and D nodes are for, didnt SH3 have Huff Duff so maybe that is D. They aren't used in any ships I've looked at. They are usually on or near the bridge. They should work as dummy nodes for radar if you specify C01 to have the right type in the .sns file. If this approach isn't working, I don't know why, but I've added R01 nodes to all the escorts that are missing them.

In relation to your wish to get fire control radars to fire guns through fog, I don't think they are in game as a radar "type". I have seen ships fire through fog at targets that are in visual range of other friendlies. So they can blind fire - sort of... at the moment, I'm not looking at this though.

In goblin editor it states for some sensor values that if 0 the value is read from the sim.cfg. So the opposite is true if not 0 the value is read from the AI_sensors.sim instead. It does not state this for surface area detected, but it might still do this.

Guns_radars just seems to have the director model for the fletcher, it has no sensor values. It is just a model. So are the other radar models in that file. They do nothing for gameplay.

The ships I have modded seem to detect me now fine. A Town class with a type271 detected me in thick fog on calm seas at around 6km. It turned toward at full speed etc then attacked when in range.

The various radar nodes could be used to attach air search and sea search to the same ship, though I don't see the point in this at the moment, as the radars (even the surface searchers) all work up to high altitude and have the elevation and traverse to detect anything large enough. Plus only surface search is important to gameplay, but it could be looked at later.

I used R01 for the director on the fletcher and cloned it to R02 to add SC, SG etc as war progresses. Seems to work.

With regards to wavelengths I ask because as I understood it radar wavelengths determine target size for detection. Most of the centimetrics in the game are set to detect 0.3 by default and in goblin editor the units are supposedly m2 (that what it says anyway). Centimetric radars were approx 100mm wavelength and 10cm x 10cm = 0.01 m2 i.e many times more sensitive than the 0.3m2 listed.

I can upload the escorts from my sea folder for testing purposes. Also the AI_sensors etc would be needed. I basically went through all the radars listed and found their wavelengths on the net / books etc then converted that to surface area as above and re-entered the new values. Not touched range or anything else. Its just my sea folder contains a whole load of other mods, like my new Town Class that I'm working on, removed ship reflections etc buffed DC loadouts and other stuff.

Some aircraft do have radar, the Sunderland, the Catalina and the Heavy bomber all have R01 nodes and corresponding ASV radars in their sns files, and I'm pretty sure I didnt put that in (maybe I did though - and forgot!). The Swordfish, the Buccaneer and perhaps 1 or 2 other could have it added. The swordfish used early ASV to detect bismarck in 41, and the Buccaneer in game is a effectively a proxy for the Avenger which also carried ASV later on.

Thing is making these changes will make the game seriously more difficult in 41 - 43. I haven't got near a convoy for a long time now in my 43 campaign... its horrific! :(

http://www.gamefront.com/files/23404686/Escorts.zip

contains all sorts, not JSGME ready, this is all WIP at the moment, you can probably enable it easy enough though.

[V13dweller]

I know the FuMO23 the Bismarck was built with had a range of 25 Kilometers, due to how high the set sat on the ship.

I have modified the Bismarck to have a the three FuMO23's it had in real life, and with three radars that have their default traverse to be 180 degrees it would have almost a full view around it, and it should be able to use these three radars to fire at enemies through fog.

Bismarck was also armed with many range finders that could be pointed in the direction of an enemy (Found on Radar) to detect and attack them.

I'm going to do some more tests later today, if you want me to create mission editor missions with any ship/sub you want in it, I could whip one up for you. (I have used ME2 for a long time , so I can use it very well.)

[gap]

Not sure what C and D nodes are for, didnt SH3 have Huff Duff so maybe that is D.

Yes, this is correct: C nodes werer meant for radar warning receivers, and D for radio direction finders. The new SH5 obj_sensor controller doesn't accept these types. I wonder if using the old SHIII controller on SH5 units would work for the missing sensors :hmmm:


With regards to wavelengths I ask because as I understood it radar wavelengths determine target size for detection. Most of the centimetrics in the game are set to detect 0.3 by default and in goblin editor the units are supposedly m2 (that what it says anyway). Centimetric radars were approx 100mm wavelength and 10cm x 10cm = 0.01 m2 i.e many times more sensitive than the 0.3m2 listed.

Again, your assumption seems reasonable; going by what I know about wave propagation in general, long wavelenghts would basically "jump" over small targets. However, nowhere I have read that radar sensitiveness and wavelenght used are in direct relation. On the contrary, most sources I have consulted state that wavelenght has an effect on detection accuracy which, I think, is a slightly different concept.

[Mikemike47]

The new SH5 obj_sensor controller doesn't accept these types. I wonder if using the old SHIII controller on SH5 units would work for the missing sensors :hmmm:

Is the new SH5 obj_sensor controller something TDW could fix this to accept these types? What purpose is the obj_sensor controller used for now?

[gap]

Is the new SH5 obj_sensor controller something TDW could fix this to accept these types? What purpose is the obj_sensor controller used for now?

Talking about AI sensors (player sensors use a different set of controllers), they all share the same obj_sensor controller. The sensor type is determined by the 'type' property. Valid entries for the SH5 version of the controller are: Lookout, Radar, Hydrophone and Sonar. SHIII version of the controller also accept Radarwarning and RadioDF.

Normally, older controllers are accepted by the SH5 engine, though with some limitations. In this case, for sure SHIII's obj_sensor is missing the possibility of setting different sensivities at various azimuth angles. SH5 on turn could be missing the code for RWR and RDF sensors, but checking them could be worth anyway. :yep:

[Jace11]

RWR is in the uboat sensors as a type for metox etc.. can you not just pull it across from the other file. AI subs use sensors from there.

I might try and edit type 286, so it is more realistic, it didnt have turning antenna, just fixed ones, I think usually 4, one on each side and the bearing was deduced by turning the ship. It might be interesting as you could probably evade it quite easily once detected, could lead to some interesting chases.. - ah no screw that, I thought the sensors could be given limited sweep sectors like turrets can. You could do it by having 4 nodes I guess but too time consuming.

Might also add nodes to swordfish and avenger.

[gap]

RWR is in the uboat sensors as a type for metox etc.. can you not just pull it across from the other file. AI subs use sensors from there.

Do you mean that some AI units use U-boat sensors? Never noticed it, but it could be good news indeed. :)

[Berlorian]

ok well ill keep playing the campaign for now.
i thought this post was a joke how could ubi release a game if a major part (radar) aint working properly. i always wondered why it was so easy to sneak into convoys while surfaced at night.

[V13dweller]

I can confirm that the Radar's work, because ships in maximum fog will lock onto enemies, making even an 80 degree course change to follow, but they just won't fire until they are in visual range, it's annoying!:/\\!!

I cannot get them to fire through fog, It happens in the stock game.

Anyone have a stock SH5 Config files they can upload for me?

[Vanilla]

I wonder if ships did in fact opened fire upon just seeing a blip on a radar screen - in this way you can easily fire upon a, say, neutral fisherman or even a friendly. What were Rules of Engagement regarding radar contacts during the war? As I know from aviation sources even now a visual ID is often required on a radar contact before firing anything at it.
Moreover how precise were the radars of the day in the sense of spatial resolution or size of the target determination? I doubt that a battleship captain would order a full broadside on an unidentified radar contact which position and size are not known exactly - it is well known fact that main weapon ammunition can be: a) limited, b) very expensive (that is why BBs were given secondary weapons), and if you fire only secondary guns where is the guarantee that they will cause any damage (what if it is an enemy BB) while simultaneously breaking the element of surprise?
Even if we take the situation Hood vs. Bismark where the latter fired on radar range (as claimed by some authors it was the RF that helped to win) - it was not a situation where both did not see each other on the opposite both ship saw each other clearly, Bismark did not fire on an unidentified radar contact.
Returning to our situaton I suspect that while sailing in heavy fog and upon seeing a radar contact which had a small size an escort DD would establish an attack run to confirm the contact visualy and only upon visual identification would it attack. And if the submarine did not have a working RWR a DD on a high-speed collision course appearing less than a third a mile away meant death way more certain than just a random guns barrage fired on a general direction giving a warning that the U-boot was detected and must dive straight away.

[gap]

Vanilla's arguments look convicing to me :yep:

[chun]

good argument vanilla :yep:

[THE_MASK]

Shooting at an unknown enemy that you cannot see thru fog sounds like SciFi . But if some people want that ability then why not make it an option .

[GatorBMC]

http://www.gamefront.com/files/23404686/Escorts.zip


Link is no longer functioning. :nope:

[Stary Wuj]

Excuse me, any working link for this mod?


Thank You!


Stary Wuj