THOMSEN PARAMETERS APP - by Stiebler [Archive]

Stiebler

05-15-13, 05:48 AM

The ships in SH3 tend to behave like 'rubber ducks' when bobbing on the sea, bouncing around too much, and turning, accelerating and deaccelerating far too quickly. Philip Thomsen discovered in 2008 that alteration of four key parameters (eng_power, drag (of rudder), gc_height and 'LR'), found in the .sim file of each ship, could make this behaviour much more life-like. He published his findings at SubSim in its own thread, and distributed a number of modified .sim files.

See Thomsen's thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=143775

Thomsen's findings were confirmed by others, including by H.sie who distributed some further modified files, but there was much debate about which values to use - indeed, no clear consensus ever emerged. Moreover, many other players of SH3 could not use the files distributed by Thomsen and H.sie, since they caused clashes with their own sim files.

Therefore, I have decided to make this THOMSEN PARAMETERS APP available for general use, since it can be used to modify ALL ships currently used by ANY user in their SH3 installation.

THOMSEN PARAMETERS APP is an executable file (.exe) that searches through your SH3 'Sea' folder looking for ship.sim files (eg 'NKC3.sim'). It then replaces optionally any or all of eng_power, rudder-drag, surfaced left-right drag coefficient ('LR') and gc_height (= centre of gravity) with values specified by the user. Every .sim file in your sea folder will be examined and altered!

(The instructions run to 2 1/2 pages, enclosed with the mod. I have tested the mod with about 180 sim files in NYGM (using recommended settings), but the app should work with any super mod, or even stock SH3, and with any ships made by others. Specifically, it functions correctly with IABL's MFM mod. Tests made by manual examination of a random selection of sim files for ships, and by carrying out 10 war patrols in mid Atlantic against a variety of convoys, and in single missions.)

Download from here:
http://www.subsim.com/mods1/nygm/ThomsenParamApp.7z

Stiebler.

VONHARRIS

05-15-13, 06:15 AM

Nice job.
Downloading now!

Thank you:up:

J0313

05-15-13, 07:05 AM

This is great, Thanks.

Borgneface

05-15-13, 07:07 AM

S! Great work......Downloading it now and will install it when back to base.

Merci :up:

brett25

05-15-13, 11:03 AM

really awesome stiebler, thanks :yeah::yeah:

VONHARRIS

05-15-13, 01:44 PM

I would like to post something I spotted:
(I appologize in advance if I am wrong)

In the help file of the application it is stated that a silenthunteriii\mods\ThomsenSea folder must be created , to be enabled later by JSGME.

I beleive the correct path must be ThomsenApp\data and copy the sea folder in there so that JSGME would be able to activate correctly in SH3.

(The above worked for me)

Thank you!

Luno

05-15-13, 03:04 PM

Wow, this is perfect! Thanks Stiebler!

fitzcarraldo

05-15-13, 03:28 PM

Downloading for testing!!!

Many thanks Stiebler, a great work!

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

desertstriker

05-15-13, 05:22 PM

as always excellent work Stiebler thanks this sure will make life easier with MFM

brett25

05-15-13, 05:43 PM

Hi Stiebler,

One question, why not any changes to the GC height, and LR? would these values help the ship look more massive and less bobbing, by placing it lower? Or does it mess up the depth under keel?

scramasax

05-16-13, 12:40 AM

thx I was looking for something like that :)

Stiebler

05-16-13, 02:41 AM

@Brett25:
One question, why not any changes to the GC height, and LR? would these values help the ship look more massive and less bobbing, by placing it lower? Or does it mess up the depth under keel? There was a lot of dispute in Thomsen's original thread about the correct values to use for gc_height and LR.

The general concensus seemed to be that all the shipbuilders (the devs and the several makers of later ships, such as Sergbuto, IABL, Rowi58 and others) had done generally a good job for gc_height and LR.

I have added to my ThomsenParamApp the ability to change gc_height and LR globally, so that users can experiment, to see if they can find better values. For example, it might be that they discover that they have made most ships worse, but a few ships better. Then we can change the 'better' ships manually, while leaving the other ships alone.

Of course, that requires anyone who makes the experiment to publish his results for all to see! And the experimenter must be very careful to back up all the 'Sea' folder before making the experiment!

Stiebler.

Stiebler

05-16-13, 02:49 AM

@vonHarris:

I would like to post something I spotted:
(I appologize in advance if I am wrong)

In the help file of the application it is stated that a silenthunteriii\mods\ThomsenSea folder must be created , to be enabled later by JSGME.

I beleive the correct path must be ThomsenApp\data and copy the sea folder in there so that JSGME would be able to activate correctly in SH3.Ouch! You're right!
I've uploaded a new 7z file with corrected instructions to the same download address as in my first post.
Also added an HTML file of instructions, in case there is anyone out there who cannot read the chm file.
The executable file remains unchanged.

Thanks for pointing up the error.

Stiebler.

VONHARRIS

05-16-13, 04:06 AM

@ Stiebler

You are welcome.
Thank you again for this application.:up:

Anvar1061

05-16-13, 04:30 AM

@vonHarris:

Ouch! You're right!
I've uploaded a new 7z file with corrected instructions to the same download address as in my first post.
Also added an HTML file of instructions, in case there is anyone out there who cannot read the chm file.
The executable file remains unchanged.

Thanks for pointing up the error.

Stiebler.
SSS
Stiebler,you couldn't make a video lesson of the correct installation?http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/smilies/Kaleun_Confused.gif

Tupolev

05-16-13, 09:00 AM

Thanks Stiebler!

I've been experimenting and tweakingMFM ships by hand and this is going to save me bunches of time.

Awesome work as usual!

T

Philipp_Thomsen

05-16-13, 09:21 AM

Well would you look at that...

5 Years later, I decide to pop-by to see what's going on,
and then I find this as the first topic in the list.

Brought tears to my eyes...
Best time of my life.

Hitman

05-16-13, 09:30 AM

Great job again Stiebler :yeah:

And glad to see you around Thomsen, don't make us wait so much next time :salute:

brett25

05-16-13, 12:00 PM

Here are the "clean" .sim only files for all the boats if you are using NYGM and MFM combined:

http://www.mediafire.com/?f70yde0zsc6u505

the .sims HAVE NOT been altered, so you can skip right to step two and use stieblers app, the folder structure is correct for JGSME although you may want to chane the main folder to something like THomspens_NYGM_MFM or some thing like that

these are the sims for MFM only:

http://www.mediafire.com/?gcqqqqrnfgvs8j3

HW3

05-16-13, 03:03 PM

Thank you brett25!:yeah:

:subsim:

makman94

05-16-13, 06:34 PM

many thanks for this tool Stiebler :yeah:

tools like this are real 'weapons' on moders's hands !
if only we had a douzine more like this ...

a suggestion : can you make your tool able to alter ALL values in .sim files and not only the four ones that i saw ? you never know what a moder may want to ...tweak !

Stiebler

05-17-13, 09:58 AM

@Makman94:
a suggestion : can you make your tool able to alter ALL values in .sim files and not only the four ones that i saw ? you never know what a moder may want to ...tweak ! In fact, I considered the possibility that the four parameters (and many others) could be read in from a user text file.

However, there are serious technical problems:
1. Different types of variable (integer, float, byte) must be handled differently in code.
2. It would be difficult to provide a range of permitted values for each variable. For example, a value of gc_height = -1 must be excluded (although it might be fun to try).
3. Hardest of all - some variables are encountered more than once within a single sim file (for example, the LR parameter). It required special code to ensure that the correct LR is modified. It would become a very large effort to check every sim variable, in order to ensure that the correct variable, out of several with the same name, was used.

So I regret that it is not really practical to adapt my Thomsen's Parameter App for general use.

Of course, in order to discover which sim value a modder might want to tweak in future, it is necessary only to make a temporary alteration to a single ship (and its sim file) for test purposes.

Stiebler.

CaptBones

05-17-13, 01:09 PM

First of all THANK YOU Stiebler and THANK YOU brett25...great work on creating the APP and an excellent time-saving shortcut on top of it!

So, I returned to port after completing a mission supporting Norwegian Campaign (tried it this time without applying "prior knowledge" of what was going to happen in April of '40...just as frustrating as "real life"!).

Started to work on setting up and installing this APP/MOD and found a potential problem...maybe; or maybe not?

I'm running SHIII/GWX 3 Gold with GWX 3 Wilhelmshafen, St.Naz...etc. v6, Xtras for Wilhelmshafen campaign v2.4c, MFM3.2/MFM3.2 displacement correction Mods installed/activated.

In my "data\Sea" folder I do not have an "M33A", which is in the .sim only folders supplied by brett25. But, I do have an "M35Hansa", which is not in the .sim only folder and appears to have come from the GWX 3 Wilhelmshafen, etc. v6, instead of from MFM.

I'm assuming there would not be a conflict if I put .sim only folders for both in the MOD's "\data\Sea" folder, after running the APP. But, could anyone shed some light on those two Sea folder "models"? Where can I find the entire M33A folder and is either one (or neither or both) scripted/used anywhere in particular?

Thanks in advance for any info anyone can supply...:D

brett25

05-17-13, 01:28 PM

HW3

05-17-13, 01:31 PM

The M33A is included in the MFM-Lite-Beta-v4.1.

:subsim:

CaptBones

05-17-13, 07:47 PM

CaptBones (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=270124)

the .sims i provided are not for GWX, only NYGM and MFM

the problem is, if your using multiple ship mods you will have to make one for that particular install, there is no generic one that will fit all situations.

Yes, I understand they are for MFM. Since I have MFM installed in addition to GWX and the other additional ship Mods mentioned, I'm making up a complete (customized) MOD folder of modified .sim files for all ships in my data\Sea folder. Your ".sim only" MFM ship folders saved me all the time it would have taken for deleting the non-.sim files from my own MFM ship folders.

Before merging the folders, I compared them side-by-side and found several ship folders in my SHIII\data\Sea folder are either missing altogether or are empty; M33A is missing, M33B is empty, T06A & T06B are empty, and T15B only has 4 .tga files in it.

So, I was just wondering if the rest of those missing/incomplete ships also exist somewhere...

CaptBones

05-17-13, 07:51 PM

The M33A is included in the MFM-Lite-Beta-v4.1.

:subsim:

Hhhmmm, never thought of looking there.

I don't imagine you would know if these others (M33B, T06A & T06B and T15B) are also in the "Lite" version?

Thanks again...

HW3

05-17-13, 10:56 PM

All of them but T15B are in MFM-Lite-Beta-v4.1.

:subsim:

P.S. My copy of MFM 3.2 also only has the 4 .tga files for T15B, so you do not have a faulty download.

brett25

05-18-13, 06:06 AM

hi, if it helps anyone this is the mod install order (as steibler indicates in his notes) that im using for NYGM plus MFM:

NYGM Tonnage War V2.5 – Stand Alone Version
NYGM3_New
NYGM3_6B
Merchant_Fleet_Mod_3.2
MFM-Interim-Beta_NYGM

thus, the .sim files will work for this install

CaptBones

05-18-13, 03:12 PM

All of them but T15B are in MFM-Lite-Beta-v4.1.

:subsim:

P.S. My copy of MFM 3.2 also only has the 4 .tga files for T15B, so you do not have a faulty download.

Thank you sir; you're a gentleman and a scholar and there aren't many of us left! :up:

makman94

05-20-13, 01:44 PM

@Makman94:
In fact, I considered the possibility that the four parameters (and many others) could be read in from a user text file.

However, there are serious technical problems:
1. Different types of variable (integer, float, byte) must be handled differently in code.
2. It would be difficult to provide a range of permitted values for each variable. For example, a value of gc_height = -1 must be excluded (although it might be fun to try).
3. Hardest of all - some variables are encountered more than once within a single sim file (for example, the LR parameter). It required special code to ensure that the correct LR is modified. It would become a very large effort to check every sim variable, in order to ensure that the correct variable, out of several with the same name, was used.

So I regret that it is not really practical to adapt my Thomsen's Parameter App for general use.

Of course, in order to discover which sim value a modder might want to tweak in future, it is necessary only to make a temporary alteration to a single ship (and its sim file) for test purposes.

Stiebler.

i see what you mean Stiebler ,
in my ignorance i thought that the procedure for adding the other values would be the same as the procedure for these four that i saw.

thank you very much for sharing this tool :up:

TheDarkWraith

05-21-13, 12:31 AM

i see what you mean Stiebler ,
in my ignorance i thought that the procedure for adding the other values would be the same as the procedure for these four that i saw.

thank you very much for sharing this tool :up:

If you have SH5 installed use Goblin Editor. It can edit any value in the .sim files :up:

Ligne Maginot

08-07-13, 05:04 PM

@ Stiebler:

When one applies "ThomsenParamApp" on a set of ships, according to instructions, you can expect these to be delayed? I mean, ships are delayed in reaching a waypoint, as these change speed in the preceding?.

As long as I apply "ThomsenParamApp" is extremely difficult to find a incorporated ship, while it is easier to find them when they are not modified (when you start a campaign in 1939).

This is a sign that I did something wrong?

Thanks for attention. :salute:

Stiebler

08-08-13, 12:47 AM

Ligne Maginot

08-08-13, 02:09 AM

@Ligne Maginot:

Something has gone wrong somewhere for you.

Use of the Thomsen Parameter Application mod should have no effect on ships which have not been spawned. Therefore it can have no effect on the time taken for convoys or individual ships to reach waypoints - unless the waypoint is sufficiently close to your U-boat to cause the ship to be newly created (spawned).

Stiebler.

Something I'm doing wrong:wah:. This happened to me with the "Merchant_Fleet_Mod_3.2", "MFM-Lite-Beta-v4" and now with "IABLShipsforNYGM_New2".

I will be review the documentation.

I was trying to apply the "ThomsenParamApp" to "IABLShipsforNYGM_New2" (take your advice to use it), but after two patrols, I have not found any of these ships. The idea was to level these beautiful ships with those already modified in the NYGM3_6C.

I have not any right to request you something. But dozens of times I installed fresh versions of SH3 to try again. Not everyone has your wonderful talent.

You could upload a modified version of "IABLShipsforNYGM_New2", please?

Thank you very much. :salute:

Neugeniko

08-08-13, 03:42 AM

Ligne Maginot

08-08-13, 01:02 PM

Just a quick tip

To delete every file that isn't a sim file from YOUR MODS data/Sea Directory.
1) Windows Search YOUR MODS data/Sea Directory for - NOT type: sim AND NOT type: directory
2) Delete everything from the Search Result.

Works in Windows 7 & 8, not sure about Vista and XP.

PS - It seems the mass of a lot of ships is 0. So the executable just seems to skip them. GWX sim files seem fine. Its TMT v2 that sets alot of the masses to 0.

Neug

Thanks, the program runs fine (I also have Win 7). Even I can read in the 'SEARCHPLAINTEXT.TXT' what you would expect to find. But the drawback is to find the ships. The first time, try it with MFM 3.2 and did not find one of the new ones. Whereas if you play with unmodified ships, they can be found as normal.

Maybe I sound a little impatient. But, I tried again and again with no good results (many patrols in different years) and nothing happens.

Whenever I modify a ".sim" either with the program of Stiebler or manually, I have the same problem.

Best Regards. :salute:

Stiebler

08-09-13, 12:52 AM

@Ligne Maginot:
You could upload a modified version of "IABLShipsforNYGM_New2", please?
I can make this package very quickly. In fact I have made it.

However, before I release the package for public use, I have to test it. A strange concept, I know, for many of those who release mods at SubSim.

In practice, I would want to run at least half of a SH3 career with these ships in place, and this takes a long time. Patience, please.

Of course, if you would like to test it yourself, with no guarantees, then I can make it available for private download with a link sent by PM.

@Neugeniko:

That's a very helpful tip, Neugeniko. Thanks.

Stiebler.

JeromeHeretic

08-11-13, 06:47 PM

Thanks for great tool!

And do you have any news about tuning of u-boats?

Aras

03-26-14, 10:28 AM

Thanks for this great mod. Can someone post his recommended values ?

Edit : My bad. Suggested values can be found in readme of the App. Suggested values after the help file are :

Suggested values, as recommended by others in Thomsen's original thread at Subsim:
Engine power = 30% of original value.
Rudder drag = 0.02 (merchant ships; automatic increase to 0.03 for warships)
Centre of gravity = 0 (means 'No change').
Surface drag = 0 (means 'No change').

sublynx

03-10-15, 11:33 AM

Is anybody using this Thomsen Parameters App with STZ's Sinking Ships Fix? As far as I understand they should be compatible, if I first install Sinking Ships Fix, and then modify the ships with the Parameters App?

Damo

03-11-15, 01:11 AM

So after a long hiatus, and moving to SH5 for a bit (don't ask, I'm still in therapy...) I'm coming back to SH3 so building up my install again with some old favorites as well as a few of the newer leaps forward since I last 'played' (read spend hours editing, tweaking, testing, seeing new mod, beginning again and never going beyond 1942, meh). Now, my question is in regards to the Centre of Gravity variable that is recommended to be left as is (set as 0). I never really saw much capsizing in SH3, and none in SH5 (shudder <nervous tick>) so has anyone experimented in raising the CG to see if this would lead to increased capsizing, especially in the larger ships? Or have I misunderstood how that variable works?

Basically, this time around I want a stable install that I can just enjoy playing without spending more time in Notepad and Winmerge testing than in game. Obviously if it does have the desired effect I'd really appreciate some input from those that may have tried it, and is there a sweet spot/variable that won't cause capsizing in stormy seas? I like to watch my prey sink and the more spectacular the better. In SH5 the ships just seemed to sink flat which was frustrating and made me very very angry to the point wher......

Ok, ok, I'm over it, really I am. After a quick session on the couch I feel better but if someone could answer before I relapse again it'd be appreciated.

Many thanks,
Damo.

sublynx

03-11-15, 09:45 AM

Try sinking the ship with a magnetic pistol torpedo that detonates right under the middle of the ship. That might cause more capsizing.

wizardmatt

01-27-17, 11:14 AM

It seems the mass of a lot of ships is 0. So the executable just seems to skip them. GWX sim files seem fine. Its TMT v2 that sets alot of the masses to 0.

Neug

QFT, I'm having the same experience right now, as I install my version of a "final, definitive install." The app works like a charm with base GWX3, St. Naz etc Extras For GWX, WB's USAM, and MFM3.2.....but with the MFM3.2 Displacement Correction Mod, the Parameter App finds the .sim files just fine, but it doesn't apply the changes.

Any advice anyone could give in order to save me having to manually edit 120+ .sim files would be great :D

You do awesome work Stiebler, keep it up :up:

wizardmatt

01-27-17, 01:36 PM

Further to my previous post, from the OP of the MFM3.2 Displacement Correction mod http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=200593

I decided to go, one-by-one, through every ship in the MFM3.2 Data/Sea folder. For each one I checked the displacement documented in the .cfg file, then opened up the .sim file and set mass to zero and then set surfaced displacement to the same value as given in the .cfg file.

And from the Parameter App's help file

"No ship of fewer than 500 tons will have its parameters altered, as originally intended by Thomsen"

So when these 2 points are combined, that's the reason I'm having the problem I'm having, I would guess