[IDEA] Why SH5 Modding is Broken and How To Fix It

[Bathrone]

So first up there is so much awesome work been done here and it truly transforms the game into a much better game :arrgh!:

The innovation is awesome and the sheer dedication involved in tasks like the extreme mods with disassembling the executable and offering assembly patches, just wow :yeah:

The subsim community should be proud :subsim:

It is my hope, that in that spirit, the following suggestions are considered in the light that I'm genuinely trying to explain what I see to be serious problems preventing all this awesomeness for getting into users hands in a useful state :know:

The core problems as I see it are:

1. Source code and configuration management practices are poor
2. Release distribution and end user configuration practices are poor
3. The impacts of 1 and 2 has ripple effects in that testing efforts are diluted and confused from what they would otherwise be able to contribute to mod Authors

There's been numerous posts in the past about users being frustrated with not knowing how to obtain the mods, then not knowing how to install them properly. Sober has put forth a yardstick with a mod list. If people subscribe to the site they can get out of date binaries from the all in one download and then be forced into downloading more files to update it.

Then once the users have done that, the real "fun" for them begins when they try to configure each mod to the install instructions supplied. I initially started out by trying to setup Sobers mod list so that I could:

a) Personally enjoy what seemed to be a baseline set of mods that I assumed would have compatibility between each other cos it's in his stickied and popular mod list
b) Document every detail from a user perspective so that others could have deeper instructions as with respect to Sober, theres much detail missing on how to configure each and every mod to work with his modlist. While each mod discussion thread has some degree of install instructions its relevant for that mod in itself and not an actual complete mod list.

Some of the issues I experienced with doing this is:

i) Sobers mod list referencing package versions which dont exist
ii) Inconsistencies between the mod list profile and differences in how mod authors release their mods that are likely to cause a "corrupted" mod list setup
iii) Multiple mods needing the same original dependencies and the behaviour of the mod enabler tool where configuration items are overwritten
iv) In working around these problems, I am now actually doing development in simply trying to get myself to the point where Sobers mod list is configured where every mod is correct and working as a whole

I was reflecting on these problems last night. I know, I can get my own system to the point where I've hard coded and fiddled with directories and done all sorts of things to configure my own setup. However, no normal user is every going to follow my instructions even if I detail them specifically. They'll get lost in it all. What tends to happen is either the user will complain on the forum and give up, or ask for help about crashes and general weirdness as they have an unstable and improperly configured "mod list".

The community tried the approach of an all in one download before, and while I was happy to pay for my subsim subscription to help out, the all in one is out of date where its missing important fixes. So you have to start a new cycle of manual updates which leads to all the problems again. Your not fixing the root cause with this approach and this band aid fix wont ever deal with the updates problem.

There is a way to fix the root cause. These problems are nothing new to software projects. There is tried and true methods for dealing with all this.

What I propose is:

1. SH5 Modders sign up at source forge or some other open facility and we establish subversion source code and configuration management procedures.
2. Invite testers to sign up too, for both SVN trunk and "release" testing.
3. As an initial step, integrate those mods that are common and popular with each other.
4. Testers would grab SVN, do a single mod enable in the mod tool, patch the exe as needed (not releasing modded exe avoids legal issues) and be positioned to test on a known standard to reinforce the inherent quality of this method.
5. In such a scenario people could still customise and modify as they want, but they do so at the expense of not being on the standard build
6. From time to time where it makes sense, releases could be issued to make it even easier to distribute a specific build version.
7. Meritocracy to be applied to competing mods that offer the same end user effect. Such as deciding which UI mod to use. I know sometimes this can be contentious but it is very important for establishing a standard build. And, if pockets of the community really felt strongly about specific decisions in this space, there would be nothing stopping a fork of SVN to occur on another project. This happens in open source development, like with Ubuntu and Kbuntu.

It's not as involved as it might seem to those who arent used to working like this. I genuinely consider if key modders got on board with it, such as TDW, Trevally, Steel Viking, Gap etcetc soon enough everyone would use it.

Thanks for reading :hmmm:

[Hinrich Schwab]

While your suggestions have merit, I disagree with the roots of the original problem. I think the issue here is the expectations of a single-install auto-configured, auto-balanced megamod in lieu of the "mod soup" typically found. Likewise, the big issue with SH5 over previous games is that stock SH5 is an obvious beta that was forced out the door by Ubi's executive meddling beyond the control of the Dev Team, leaving many basic functions out. With all of the needed functions, comes the massive degree of modding that we have. Modding SH5 comes off more chaotic and confusing because the game NEEDS about half-a-dozen mods just to be on par with previous titles. This prospect is overwhelming to new players. I fully admit to minor issues I had when using TDW's mods, but all of my problems were resolved quickly. Bear in mind that my coding experience stopped being top notch in 1993. The issue is preparing new players for how technical and involved modding is, rather than setting up a design and development team and using a third-party site to accommodate some perceived need for order, which I do not see any need thereof.

[Targor Avelany]

eh, another scream for "give me a mega-mod in one install" thread?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=203339

here. look at this, still on the first forum page, just lower.

[gap]

I have first hand information that a new mega mod is in the making, but probably many of you know what I am talking about. ;)

Nonetheless, in my opinion there is no need to rush on this one. :O: :D

Just like cooking a delicious soup is more than putting water, salt and chopped vegetables together, preparing a balanced megamod (à la GWX, if you get my meaning) is much more than merging a group of mods together. Even after solving possible incompatibilities, one should aim making the selected mods to work well together. Take waves height for instance. They are not simply a cosmetic feature; on the contrary they will affect U-boat's handling on heavy seas. It is well possible that an excellent U-boat physics mod designed over stock waves, won't perform well when used on the background of a custom wave mechanics mod. On turn, deck gun's accuracy will be affected by both wave mechanics and U-boat physics... I could go further with my (oversimplified) examples, but I think you got an idea already.

SH5 got lot of parameters interacting with each other. The effect of many of them is known already, but there are many others that need to be figured out yet. Understanding and finetuning them is the base for obteining a good megamod, something destined to last, rather than a chimeric monster. Doing it is way too much for a single modder though. In my opnion, what is needed before the next megamod is brong to completion is:

- modders to conceive their mods as a piece of a bigger picture, i.e. designing their work over a set of preexisting mods, rather than ignoring what has been already done by other modders, and starting every time from scratch;

- better mod documentation (as suggested by Bathrone), and better knowledge sharing in form of modding tutorials and TEC threads;

- new comers to stop spamming the forum with their requests, and starting to figure things out. There are some good examples of recent members who are doing so. The last example, in chronological order, is Macardigan and his brilliant discovery that, after all, hydrophone sounds are not as static as we all had thought so far :yep:

[Trevally.]

The last example, in chronological order, is Macardigan and his brilliant discovery that, after all, hydrophone sounds are not as static as we all had thought so far :yep:

:agree:

Great work by Macardigan
:Kaleun_Applaud:

[raymond6751]

I read through the first post and could not help wondering if the author had heard of JSGME mod enabler.

I have many mods enabled and didn't have to fiddle with them. TDW has given us the option of tweaking any setting in his UI mods, but there is no need to do that as his work runs perfectly with defaults.

As someone has pointed out, new players should take the time to read the details in the mods they intend to try, since most mods do provide them. The modders of the bigger works have been very clear in their features lists and implementation advice.

This is a community effort with a vast variety of modded changes to pick from. We have a treasure trove of riches -- for all three versions of Silent Hunter!

[gap]

:agree:

Great work by Macardigan
:Kaleun_Applaud:

yes indeed hats off :yep:

http://www.oocities.org/soho/atrium/3553/hatsoff.gif

[gap]

As someone has pointed out, new players should take the time to read the details in the mods they intend to try, since most mods do provide them.

Indeed, I have said that we need for better documentation for some mods, but I should have mentioned that in many cases new players hardly read the very first rows of readme files, thus incurring nightmarish problems wich are easily avoidable :yep:

[finchOU]

It's funny because I could barely follow some of the computer speak of the first post.... which is kind of the point I think. People don't buy sims or games to learn about programming and when something's broken ...they vent and whine when they realize they didn't get what they wanted when they paid their hard earned money (maybe in the wrong direction).

As easy as some of these Mods are to install via JSGME (a mod itself) some of other manual fix Mods are extremely intimidating from a non technical person's point of view. While some get more comfortable with the idea (say me), the average joe would get more frustrated and quit or not even try. Eventually would lose interest in the game ...possibly the genre.

I guess it comes down to attracting and keeping a community (with all levels of technical skill) of Simmers who want to come back for more and are willing to put money down for that entertainment.

eh, another scream for "give me a mega-mod in one install" thread?


Was I screaming?? :rotfl2: Though I brought it forward with some class without the GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME type of rant. haha

[Targor Avelany]

Was I screaming?? :rotfl2: Though I brought it forward with some class without the GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME type of rant. haha

No, I don't think you were :) But you get my idea.

I agree with most of the posters above and you, finchOU, bring a good point about someone who is not technically experienced.

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not leave us much choice - some of the fixes have NO OTHER WAY OF BEING FIXED but this, hard way. In another thread, TDW was giving an example of how in-efficient the code in the SH5 is - and you have to realize that he is THE ONLY person right now who is looking into the actual code and fixing things that cannot be fixed any other way.
And most of those things are - a game breaking (should I even mention the stadimeter or hydrophone fixes?).

I will also bring to your attention that there is a project that some people have been slowly working on - very simple, pure data entry, nothing technical at all - and none the less: not many people have volunteered to help. This tells me that as a community, we are not ready for a creation of a mega-mod. You think that if you bunch-up Trev, gap, TDW, maybe another 2 people together they will magically make a megamod in a short period of time?
They are awesome, geniuses in my opinion, but mega-mod requires a lot of effort: ask the GWX team or even U-HAHND team: a project which is still in development.

And lastly, and I'm not even going to go into detail: there is still no one way of how people view the game should be: the waves, the pitch and roll, the map looks, the grids, the AI responses, etc, etc, etc, etc..

[finchOU]

Based off of what TDW said....I totally see how slow and painful the process of decoding is. And, I'm willing to help out with simple data collection. But yeah I can see what you are saying. The silver lining is that there is hope....and it is worth working on to get it pretty much right. :up:

[THE_MASK]

Use a MEP file .

[Bathrone]

While your suggestions have merit, I disagree with the roots of the original problem. I think the issue here is the expectations of a single-install auto-configured, auto-balanced megamod in lieu of the "mod soup" typically found. Likewise, the big issue with SH5 over previous games is that stock SH5 is an obvious beta that was forced out the door by Ubi's executive meddling beyond the control of the Dev Team, leaving many basic functions out. With all of the needed functions, comes the massive degree of modding that we have. Modding SH5 comes off more chaotic and confusing because the game NEEDS about half-a-dozen mods just to be on par with previous titles. This prospect is overwhelming to new players. I fully admit to minor issues I had when using TDW's mods, but all of my problems were resolved quickly. Bear in mind that my coding experience stopped being top notch in 1993. The issue is preparing new players for how technical and involved modding is, rather than setting up a design and development team and using a third-party site to accommodate some perceived need for order, which I do not see any need thereof.

Thanks Hinrich for your thoughts.

I think we both agree that configuration for the end user should be easy. I also agree with your comment when you say "This prospect is overwhelming to new players" but I disagree with your follow on logic which is "The issue is preparing new players for how technical and involved modding is"

Obviously the complexity needs to be addressed somewhere. I challenge your idea that the complexity should be passed to users. History has shown time and again thats a very bad idea for software projects.

Without source code management, release management and configuration management there is never going to be any due quality in compatibility between mods and it will continue to dilute testing efforts by not having a standard platform. Look at Linux development and how that has progressed these sorts of approaches, Linux is a free for all in everything but those three areas for very good reasons.

EDIT: The other thing Hinrich I was thinking here is that I consider it would be elitist and selfish of me to take the position that since I have technical skills, I can handle the complexity of modding and through those special skills be one of the lucky few who can enjoy the game as it should have been. In the spirit of people doing work to improve the game for free, and sharing their work so that others can enjoy it too, what I'm trying to do is come up with ways that all this great work can be readily accessible without specialised knowledge.

[Bathrone]

I read through the first post and could not help wondering if the author had heard of JSGME mod enabler.

I have many mods enabled and didn't have to fiddle with them. TDW has given us the option of tweaking any setting in his UI mods, but there is no need to do that as his work runs perfectly with defaults.

As someone has pointed out, new players should take the time to read the details in the mods they intend to try, since most mods do provide them. The modders of the bigger works have been very clear in their features lists and implementation advice.

This is a community effort with a vast variety of modded changes to pick from. We have a treasure trove of riches -- for all three versions of Silent Hunter!

Hi Raymond and thanks also for your comments

I do use the mod enabler. One of the core problems of this very basic approach to configuration management is that it is not a parsing patch utility, it in fact overwrites whole configuration items at a time. Thus clobbering previous patches using the same configuration item.

This is a key problem because popular mod lists like sobers mod list causes a situation where individual mods overwrite others. I'm now in the process of having to hard code merges in menu.txt as an ugly hack to getting his mod list working all round.

As for documentation, I have spend almost a week documenting the mods in sobers mod list. I originally offered to give this info to Sober but hes now suggested I do my own thread. Thats fine. I'm happy to do this work for the community.

The problem though is when people try to say the doco is in the mod discussion threads and readme.txt files. Its true for single mods, but when you put together a mod list there is a need for additional documentation for users to merge changes and other mod list specific settings to not arrive at a corrupted setup. I've been trying to document this too and I will publish that work to the community.

However, all this work Im doing would go away if we all adopted proper processes used in software development. It would no longer be a user burden to deal with. And as I've said, the mod authors would benefit from a standardised platform by focusing testing efforts from users.

[Bathrone]

In my opnion, what is needed before the next megamod is brong to completion is:

- modders to conceive their mods as a piece of a bigger picture, i.e. designing their work over a set of preexisting mods, rather than ignoring what has been already done by other modders, and starting every time from scratch;

- better mod documentation (as suggested by Bathrone), and better knowledge sharing in form of modding tutorials and TEC threads;

Hi Gap and thanks also for your thoughts

I believe the ultimate right direction is in the software project approaches Ive suggested

However in the meantime I am all for other smaller stepping stones too.

As you know Im putting allot of hours into documentation and thats one thing to help people setup their mods

If we were able to establish some basic modding guideliness outside of a formal source code and configuraiton management tool then I think that would be an excellent stepping stone. You inherently understand the problems I'm talking about, and I'm open minded about how to make it easier for the community :up:

[Bathrone]

Use a MEP file .

Mate I do, but there is limitations with the way this sort of approach works next to proper configuration and release management approaches. The biggest one is that by using a mod profile like yours, mods will clobber each other for shared dependencies and revision conflicts cause a corrupted setup

I've spent about the last week going through your mod list and fixing my setup to resolve this problem and others with the mod enabler with Sobers profile approach.

I'll get there in the end and I will share the results of that work with the community, I'm just saying there is better ways for us to deal with this stuff :arrgh!:

[Bathrone]

Unfortunately, Ubisoft did not leave us much choice - some of the fixes have NO OTHER WAY OF BEING FIXED but this, hard way. In another thread, TDW was giving an example of how in-efficient the code in the SH5 is - and you have to realize that he is THE ONLY person right now who is looking into the actual code and fixing things that cannot be fixed any other way.
And most of those things are - a game breaking (should I even mention the stadimeter or hydrophone fixes?).

I agree with you that the work TDW has done is truly extraordinary. Dissassembling the executable and editing it in assembly for patching is hardcore. I've previously praised his work, its awesome.

However, where I challenge your logic is why do you and others take as a given that the complexity has to also rest with users also? In Linux development, theres a clear showcase that it certainly does not have to be, and you can still run an open source, chaotic free for all approach to what code is written. Just have some rules around the dev platform in the areas of source code management, configuration management and release management.

One of the key principles I think should be that the mod outcomes should be freely available to everyone who wants to use it and they should be realistically able to install it without ending up with a corrupted mod list setup.

[Targor Avelany]

I agree with you that the work TDW has done is truly extraordinary. Dissassembling the executable and editing it in assembly for patching is hardcore. I've previously praised his work, its awesome.

However, where I challenge your logic is why do you and others take as a given that the complexity has to also rest with users also? In Linux development, theres a clear showcase that it certainly does not have to be, and you can still run an open source, chaotic free for all approach to what code is written. Just have some rules around the dev platform in the areas of source code management, configuration management and release management.

One of the key principles I think should be that the mod outcomes should be freely available to everyone who wants to use it and they should be realistically able to install it without ending up with a corrupted mod list setup.

And I am not arguing that it has to be. But it is also clear that there is nobody that is willing to take upon themselves to do a mega mod. Simple and clear.
And by your logic, I don't see why they MUST, in your opinion, do it.

Also, if you believe in such a strategy and preaching it: why aren't you doing it yourself?

[Bathrone]

A mega mod is a group exercise, and by having this discussion I'm explaining what my thoughts are and how we might approach such a task from a development perspective. I'm all for contributing on such a project.

Currently Im doing documentation to help users configure their setups without ending up in a corrupted state with mods clobbering each other on dependent configuration items.

While the current situation might be simple and clear to you, most users have anything but simplicity and clarity in achieving a mod list such as the popular sobers mod list without ending up in a corrupted dependency state.

[Trevally.]

I have first hand information that a new mega mod is in the making, but probably many of you know what I am talking about. ;)


Yes a new mega mod is being made:woot:
I'm sure it will be a huge help for our forum and users.

As most people understand - getting all the parts of a megamod to work is very hard and will take some time.
Also - the person who is making this for us has to ensure that as they build the mod - new updates for the mods that are within will cause bad overwritting of some files and break the megamod. This is why mega mods for SH5 is such hard work.
Us modders can help be ensuring that we inform the megamod maker of what changes - each update has made. This way they can watch for those problem files.

So far we have had two mega mods for SH5 - both were great at first, but users thurst for the most upto date mods caused many to overwrite files with many reported ctd as a result.

So my suggestion would be wait for this new mega mod (its creator knows all the mods for SH5 very well) and hope he can put up with all our demands when updates are made:D

[J0313]

Who are the people/person that is making this megamod for SH5? I havent heard but then again I dont frequent the SH5 forum much. So please forgive my ignorance.

[finchOU]

It's not official......but a few people are in the decoding process to unlock all the goodies ...so that it can be modded/rewritten. From my limited understanding....its a slow a tedious task. But there is a future for a common community mod everyone can enjoy and get behind. It just might take awhile.

[xSmithyx]

Well, in that case I will hold off spending too much time playing SH5 at this current time.

If any help is needed just throw me a PM and thanks in advance to the people working on the new project :salute:

[Targor Avelany]

... i'm really getting confused here on who is getting played here... my brain or the rest of the forum...

[volodya61]

... i'm really getting confused here on who is getting played here... my brain or the rest of the forum...

I think your brain is OK, I also in confusion.. :06: :hmmm:

[Trevally.]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfxODnr76wwvDzLRWk9dhr7uhCYJ07h av9eOtRCieMAaEfJfpY

[TheDarkWraith]

It's not official......but a few people are in the decoding process to unlock all the goodies ...so that it can be modded/rewritten. From my limited understanding....its a slow a tedious task. But there is a future for a common community mod everyone can enjoy and get behind. It just might take awhile.

Who are the people in the decoding process? And what are they decoding? As far as I know I'm the only one decoding this game :hmmm:

[Targor Avelany]

Who are the people in the decoding process? And what are they decoding? As far as I know I'm the only one decoding this game :hmmm:

:stare: :sign_yeah:

... i'm really getting confused here on who is getting played here... my brain or the rest of the forum...

[gap]

Who are the people in the decoding process? And what are they decoding? As far as I know I'm the only one decoding this game :hmmm:

A whole team disassembling SH5's code is probably asking too much, but for sure we can't complain about your one-man band work :03:

[finchOU]

Who are the people in the decoding process? And what are they decoding? As far as I know I'm the only one decoding this game :hmmm:

haha.....soooo lonely at the top eh??? :smug: guess I thought it was more than you TDW... my mistake. ...... no frowny/mad faces people!

[xSmithyx]

haha.....soooo lonely at the top eh??? :smug: guess I thought it was more than you TDW... my mistake. ...... no frowny/mad faces people!

Heresy! I believed you! Quick! Gather the villagers, torches and pitchforks! Chase him out of our village! :nope:

[keysersoze]

Who are the people/person that is making this megamod for SH5? I havent heard but then again I dont frequent the SH5 forum much. So please forgive my ignorance.

Don't worry, we have top men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdjf4lMmiiI) working on it right now..... :O:

Just kidding. I'm clueless.

[gap]

we have top men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdjf4lMmiiI) working on it right now.....

Who?! :03:

[TheDarkWraith]

haha.....soooo lonely at the top eh??? :smug: guess I thought it was more than you TDW... my mistake. ...... no frowny/mad faces people!

I was hoping that there was more people than I working on the decoding :yep:

[gap]

I was hoping that there was more people than I working on the decoding :yep:

Unfortunately not :-?

[finchOU]

Unfortunately not :-?

or is there? :hmm2: haha

[Trevally.]

or is there? :hmm2: haha

:rotfl2:


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfxODnr76wwvDzLRWk9dhr7uhCYJ07h av9eOtRCieMAaEfJfpY

[haegemon]

Let me suggest a Mega-fix-mod instead. An autoinstalling, autoadjusting mod with all the fixes avaliable for the bugs in the released beta game. My point is everybody agrees on these fixes because these are far beyond than a simple question of gameplay taste. :hmmm:

[volodya61]

Let me suggest a Mega-fix-mod instead. An autoinstalling, autoadjusting mod with all the fixes avaliable for the bugs in the released beta game. My point is everybody agrees on these fixes because these are far beyond than a simple question of gameplay taste. :hmmm:

I think this is already done..
Its name is Generic Patcher by TheDarkWraith.. :up:

[gap]

Let me suggest a Mega-fix-mod instead. An autoinstalling, autoadjusting mod with all the fixes avaliable for the bugs in the released beta game. My point is everybody agrees on these fixes because these are far beyond than a simple question of gameplay taste. :hmmm:

Most of the fixes recently deviced by TDW, were conceived by him as single patches which can be applied to the game using his generic patcher. This tool let us picking and applying only the desired patches. Some patches are configurable and/or require enabling a traditional mod via JSGME in order to work correctly, but most are not.

Maybe you can ask TDW to release a second version of the patcher which, giving up user's freedom, will apply automatically the most essential patches. It would be like preferring a fixed diet to an à la carte menu though :hmm2:

[SkyBaron]

Yes a new mega mod is being made:woot:
I'm sure it will be a huge help for our forum and users.


I have first hand information that a new mega mod is in the making, but probably many of you know what I am talking about. ;)



Can people who want to help get involved? If so , how? Or is this some kind of secret society? :|\\

[Hartmann]

Let me suggest a Mega-fix-mod instead. An autoinstalling, autoadjusting mod with all the fixes avaliable for the bugs in the released beta game. My point is everybody agrees on these fixes because these are far beyond than a simple question of gameplay taste. :hmmm:

Another possibility is make a basic Pack with all the very important things , for testing it for CTD and then start to build a megamod with aditional content.

[Targor Avelany]

all I can say... :/\\!!

[Bathrone]

Another possibility is make a basic Pack with all the very important things , for testing it for CTD and then start to build a megamod with aditional content.

I certainly not opposed to this idea

Im open minded, I consider the ultimate direction to be a merged community source code and configuration management approach but stepping stones are good too :arrgh!::yeah: