Community projects?

[keysersoze]

Fellow subsimmers,

(Please bear with this rambling thread...)

I’ve been thinking quite a bit recently, which is always dangerous, about what we as a community can do to continue improving SH5 and, indeed, all subsims. You see, I’m one of those wretched sim enthusiasts who has not an ounce of modding ability, but who nevertheless wants to contribute something to this awesome community, rather than just living off the virtual sweat of our more talented modding colleagues.

I first realized there might be an opportunity to participate in a small way when reading through TDW’s sh5.exe thread a few months ago. At one point in that thread, gap raised an excellent idea: what if TDW’s wolfpack hardfix used historical U-boat positions to determine which boats (if any) responded to your contact reports? “Awesome idea!” I thought. That would be a perfect way to tie TDW’s brilliant wolfpack function to the historical availability of U-boats. Plus, how cool would it be to report a contact to BdU, and then to receive a message from Günther Prien in U47 or Kretchsmer in U99 as they come racing to your aid?

Now, the data for U-boat positions is readily available, but the task of compiling all that information is simply insurmountable for a single person. The solution—the one proposed by gap in the aforementioned thread—is for the community to participate in gathering the data. Anyone can go to uboat.net, read about a particular U-boat’s patrol, and enter its coordinates in a community grid. As they say, many hands make light work. By opening a project like this up to the entire community, it provides an outlet for those who want to lend a hand but who, like me, can’t tell a .dat file from a .gr2.

I don’t mean to suggest that compiling U-boat positions is the only community project we can or should undertake, although I think it’s a great idea. The possibilities are really endless: any project that requires a bit of collaborative legwork could benefit from this approach. Things like scanning schematics and pictures for modelers, gathering historical BdU operational orders from actual radio messages issued to U-boats, researching Allied and U-boat OOBs for inclusion in historical scenarios are just a few of the possibilities that spring to mind.

Moreover, as I’ve found while researching special operations, reading patrol logs can be a lot of fun, not to mention tremendously immersive. It strikes me that others might be interested in the same kinds of projects. Of course, this sort of thing would be entirely voluntary. People could participate as little or as much as they wanted. Whether you want to commit to a long-term project or just want to spend an hour on a lazy Sunday afternoon reading about U-boats, your work could benefit the Subsim community.




Here are a few advantages of “community” projects:

More resources for modders—they can reference reliable information quickly and draw inspiration from it
Large tasks become much easier when many people are involved
Information will be exposed to a larger audience
Provides an opportunity for people without modding skills to participate
Increases the already considerable community ethos at Subsim


This is a long-winded way of asking a few simple questions:
First of all, is this even a good idea? Do you think there would be any interest in community projects?

If so, what would be the best format/structure for such a project? I was thinking about posting the U-boat special operations spreadsheet as a public google doc as a kind of test run to gauge interest. That way, more people might see it and hopefully benefit from it. The google doc format also allows multiple users to simultaneously edit a single document, so that others could contribute if they wanted. Are there better formats than google docs?

Any other suggestions, either about the concept or about project ideas?




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Step-by-Step Instructions for U-boat Positions Project:



1. Access our google drive folder and download gap's generator
a. Link (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8&usp=sharing)

b. Everything you need is in the folder titled "U-boat Coordinates Project"
i. "Completed Patrols" folder is for uploading/storing copies of the spread sheet when you are finished entering data

ii. "uboat coordinates v1" is gap's generator. Download this. You will work with the generator OFFLINE

iii. "U-boat Positions" is the master spreadsheet where you will paste the data created by the generator

2. Copy and paste information into gap's generator (do this offline)
a. Sources:
i. uboat.net (http://www.uboat.net/boats/listing.html): This is our primary source. Copy and paste daily U-boat coordinates by clicking on each day of the patrol, and then clicking on the blue icon on the map.

ii. u-historia.com (http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/historia/inhistoria.htm): If you can read Spanish and/or want to use an online translator, this site is useful for cross-referencing with uboat.net. Neither is error-free.

b. Enter general information in the lower lefthand corner, including commander's name and rank, date patrol started, duration of patrol in days, and whether the U-boat carried any mines. Gap's program will automatically use this information to create a template for you to work with
[INDENT]i. To get daily lat/long, click on each day of the patrol underneath the map. This will take you to another screen. Then click on the blue icon. It will display lat/long.

ii. To check to see whether the U-boat carried mines, go to the main page for that patrol and scroll to the bottom. If it was a minelaying mission, it will tell you the number and type of mines carried. Example (http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_242.html)

iii. Also on the main page for the patrol, check the "General events during this patrol" section. It will often contain useful clues for how you should set the "current activity" tab. Example (http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_241.html), showing U-34's engine trouble:
iv. To find your commander's rank, simply click on his name and check the date of your patrol with the dates of his promotions. Be sure to check to see if he was promoted between patrols.
c. Copy and paste U-boat's lat/long for each day of the patrol in the corresponding cell of the generator. Be sure to delete the comma between the latitude and longitude
d. Select one of the drop-down options from the "current activity" tab. Most are self explanatory, but refer to this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2033469&postcount=45) link for an in-depth description:
e. After you have entered positions and current activity for every day, simply highlight the yellow (output) cells and copy them

3. Paste the output from gap's generator into the google docs spreadsheet
a. Find the appropriate month/year tab in the lower lefthand corner of the spreadsheet
b. Find the correct type for your U-boat (VIIA, B, etc.)
c. If your U-boat is not yet listed for that month, add three rows, each labeled with your U-boat's number (these correspond to the output data you have already copied)
d. Highlight the first day of your U-boat's patrol
e. Paste the output data into that cell by pressing ctrl + v
4. For now, please keep a copy of the filled-in generator for each patrol so we can check each other's work and easily add variables later
a. Please use the following file naming format (without quotes): e.g. "U-33,2". This is shorthand for "U-33, 2nd patrol."

b. If you have a gmail account, you should be able to upload a copy to the folder titled "Completed Patrols" in our google drive account

c. If you don't have a gmail account, just hang onto the copy for now. I'm looking for a workaround that won't require an account.

5. Final considerations
a. If your U-boat's patrol spans multiple months, you will need to copy and paste information separately for each month, since the master spreadsheet is divided by month.

b. If you know that your U-boat had an unsuccessful attack on a certain day, put a zero in the "number of ships sunk or damaged" cell for that day

c. If there are coordinates missing for one of your days, gap has created a method for interpolating the missing coordinates.
i. Go to the last day with a known lat/long. Select "from this point" in the "interpolate missing coordinates" tab for that day.

ii. Go to the next day with known coordinates. Select "to this point" in the "interpolate missing coordinates" tab for that day

iii. Special Note: By careful doing this, as it will draw a straight line between the points. If the U-boat is near land, it might have it sail straight into the coast. In this case, manually adjust the coordinate to ensure it does not intersect with land. If we are missing coordinates for several days, you can fabricate coordinates based on similar patrols. Each day MUST have coordinates listed.

At first glance, this probably seems very complicated. But it is incredibly intuitive. Play around with it for ten minutes, and I guarantee that most of your questions will be answered .

[TheDarkWraith]

It's a great idea for use with my wolfpack patch. Problem is implementing it. Even though I've been programming in assembly for over 20 years it's not an easy task (I go back to days of DOS and segmented memory models and calling interrupts). I'm not saying it's not doable it will just take LOTS of time to implement :yep:

[keysersoze]

It's a great idea for use with my wolfpack patch. Problem is implementing it. Even though I've been programming in assembly for over 20 years it's not an easy task (I go back to days of DOS and segmented memory models and calling interrupts). I'm not saying it's not doable it will just take LOTS of time to implement :yep:

I could only the imagine the difficulty of implementing something like that, so I fully understand if it's not a practical thing to consider right now. Even still, I think community projects of this sort have a lot promise. I only meant the U-boat coordinates project to be an example of one kind of task that could benefit from community involvement. I can think of several others, but this approach could be used to facilitate a whole host of different projects.

[gap]

Great post Keyser :up:

I am with you 100% on both your proposals of creating an "open" SH5 modding group (this is partly what we are doing with our "gun project", and what I hope to do with Dynamic Environment), and of keeping up the Historical U-boat positions project.

Talking about the latter, in view of the willingness showed by TDW I suggest to wait for a pool of "data collectors" to form. It wouldn't make much sense if he started working on such an hard to do feature if there wasn't any interest/cooperation by the community. I have already created a data entry spreadsheet as well as a tool for interpolating lacking position logs, and I have already started collecting the first data (for 3-4 U-boats, IIRC). I would be pleased to send them to anyone wanting to join the group, and to offer my advise if needed.

What do you think guys? Can we do it? :)

[Targor Avelany]

I love the idea and will be happy to join.

If nothing, we will have the information for possible use in the future projects.

Also, we might as well include all the uboats (IX, XXI, etc), since we are starting to move towards having those in the game.

[gap]

I love the idea and will be happy to join.

Thank you Targor :yeah:

right now we are:

gap
keysersoze
Targor Avelany

Any new volunteer? Three people won't go anywhere far

I will post here the stuff I got ready and some basic instructions as soon as possible :yep:


If nothing, we will have the information for possible use in the future projects.

I agree :yep:
when I worked with Trevally on collecting historical information for OHII, I learned a lot and I got many cool ideas.


Also, we might as well include all the uboats (IX, XXI, etc), since we are starting to move towards having those in the game.

yes Targor I had exactly your little jewels in mind :03: :sunny:

a cool feature could be to group position report for U-boat type, so that if historically a type IX was in our vicinity, an U-boat of the same type will spawn in game :cool:

[keysersoze]

Talking about the latter, in view of the willingness showed by TDW I suggest to wait for a pool of "data collectors" to form. It wouldn't make much sense if he started working on such an hard to do feature if there wasn't any interest/cooperation by the community.


I agree. We need to see if there is any interest in this kind of thing before we could even begin to think about implementing something like that.


I have already created a data entry spreadsheet as well as a tool for interpolating lacking position logs, and I have already started collecting the first data (for 3-4 U-boats, IIRC). I would be pleased to send them to anyone wanting to join the group, and to offer my advise if needed.


What format do you think we should use for this sort of data entry? I am familiar with google docs from doing large Arabic translation projects in groups. Each person would be assigned a portion of a story to translate and would post their section to a community document. Multiple people can edit and view the document at once, making collaboration easy. My only concern is the need to backup our files frequently, in case someone unwittingly deleted a large section of it.

What do you think?

I love the idea and will be happy to join.

If nothing, we will have the information for possible use in the future projects.

Also, we might as well include all the uboats (IX, XXI, etc), since we are starting to move towards having those in the game.

Thanks for the reply and for your enthusiasm Targor. I agree about including information about other boat types. On a related note, part of the reason I suggested using google drive/google docs (or some other kind of cloud storage) is so we could gather schematics in a single location. With enough input, we could have a "one-stop shop" for modelers to use. They would only need to click on the corresponding file to instantly have access to blueprints, frame lines, pictures, etc. for whatever they want to model.

[gap]

What format do you think we should use for this sort of data entry? I am familiar with google docs from doing large Arabic translation projects in groups. Each person would be assigned a portion of a story to translate and would post their section to a community document. Multiple people can edit and view the document at once, making collaboration easy. My only concern is the need to backup our files frequently, in case someone unwittingly deleted a large section of it.

What do you think?

I have started working in xlsx just because I am quite familiar with it and it is easily portable, but any format able to manage tables, even simple txt, should be okay.

I have never used google docs, but according to your description it fits our needs :yeah:

(P.S: are you a corporate memeber of google?) :O:

[keysersoze]

I have started working in xlsx just because I am quite familiar with it and it is easily portable, but any format able to manage tables, even simple txt, should be okay.

I have never used google docs, but according to your description it fits our needs :yeah:

(P.S: are you a corporate memeber of google?) :O:

:haha: Nope—it's just the only thing I could think of that would make it easy for many people to collaborate on one big project. Actually, there are some drawbacks to using it. For one, I'm having trouble formatting the cells the way I want them.

Here is a link to that special operations document. Have a look and tell me if you think it's a feasible format.

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8/edit?usp=sharing

P.S. You might be interested in the radio messages for U109's escort mission in November 1941.

[volodya61]

Any new volunteer? Three people won't go anywhere far..

count me in :up:
but I think I could not be very helpful to collect any historical information..
but I can be helpful in any other case :yep:
I need only to solve some problems with my PC and I will able to start.. :)

[keysersoze]

count me in :up:
but I think I could not be very helpful to collect any historical information..
but I can be helpful in any other case :yep:
I need only to solve some problems with my PC and I will able to start.. :)

Thanks volodya :salute:

[gap]

:haha: Nope—it's just the only thing I could think of that would make it easy for many people to collaborate on one big project.

Just kidding Daniel,
lately the "are you by any chance working for ...?" phrase, in all its variation, has become the ubiquitous answer to someone who is proposing a good product/service here in the forum :O:


Actually, there are some drawbacks to using it. For one, I'm having trouble formatting the cells the way I want them.

Do you still have the file I sent you a while back? Can you redo it in google documents format?


Here is a link to that special operations document. Have a look and tell me if you think it's a feasible format.

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8/edit?usp=sharing

I think so. We don't really need such a complex spreadsheet for storing those data anyway. As far as we can set a basic formatting and add new rows/columns if required, any format is good. In case we need for more advanced options, we can always copy/paste the text in a traditional spreadsheet application :)


P.S. You might be interested in the radio messages for U109's escort mission in November 1941.

Good stuff :up:
I think that escort mission is listed in my compendum for OHII. Scripting those messages would be a nice addition if Trevally will ever implement this sort of missions.

count me in :up:

Thanks Volodya! We are four: :yeah:

volodya61
Targor Avelany
keysersoze
gap

Any new volunteer? Come on guys, we need to be at least 5 times this number :D


but I think I could not be very helpful to collect any historical information..
but I can be helpful in any other case :yep:

Not mutch historical information to colect Volodya: we just need to copy/paste coordinates from uboat.net to a spreadsheet, and to interpolate missing coordinated, if required. Boring task, I got to admit :shifty:

Recording the number of torpedoes onboard at the beginning of each patrol (depending on U-boat models and other special ammo, like mines, eventually carried), and the cumulative number of ships sunk for each date is another idea I had for determining if each boat is available for support or not, but this information is also easily accesible from the same website, or from U-historia.com for the ones who understand a bit of Spanish. That's all :up:


I need only to solve some problems with my PC and I will able to start.. :)

I hope you solve the problem with your PC as soon as possible: we need for it nd its human operator :O: :D

[V13dweller]

I don't expect my modding skill is what is needed here but, I normally just change weapons on ships, change direction on ship nodes, like my mod that redirects the rear depth charge nodes on the Soldati destroyer so it gains depth charge racks instead of KGuns, but I'm not sure if this skill is what is needed for this community project.
I do have quite a lot of spare time I could use for research or other menial tasks like that.

[keysersoze]

I don't expect my modding skill is what is needed here but, I normally just change weapons on ships, change direction on ship nodes, like my mod that redirects the rear depth charge nodes on the Soldati destroyer so it gains depth charge racks instead of KGuns, but I'm not sure if this skill is what is needed for this community project.
I do have quite a lot of spare time I could use for research or other menial tasks like that.

V13dweller,

This sort of project requires absolutely NO modding ability whatsoever :D Anyone who can navigate to uboat.net, can copy and paste, and enjoys reading and learning about U-boats can participate.

[keysersoze]

Just kidding Daniel,
lately the "are you by any chance working for ...?" phrase, in all its variation, has become the ubiquitous answer to someone who is proposing a good product/service here in the forum :O:


To be honest, I wish it was true...a high paying Google job would beat being a poor student :O:


Do you still have the file I sent you a while back? Can you redo it in google documents format?


Yes, I believe I still have the file. I will see if I can get it into google documents format. By the way, I am completely open to any other suggestions if you think there is an easier or better way. I thought it might be easier for you if we could all collaborate on a single document, rather than if you were forced to assemble each person's spreadsheet into a larger document.


I think so. We don't really need such a complex spreadsheet for storing those data anyway. As far as we can set a basic formatting and add new rows/columns if required, any format is good. In case we need for more advanced options, we can always copy/paste the text in a traditional spreadsheet application :)


From what I know of it, Google documents are fairly rudimentary, which is both a good thing and a bad thing for a project like this.


Good stuff :up:
I think that escort mission is listed in my compendum for OHII. Scripting those messages would be a nice addition if Trevally will ever implement this sort of missions.


I'm pretty sure I saw the Silva Plana escort mission mentioned in your additional missions mod for OHII, so I was sure to include the radio messages for it. By the way, if you can get a copy of Wolfgang Hirschfield's diary, you can read an interesting account of the mission (he was the chief radio operator on U109).

I am trying to add as many historical radio messages as I can for each mission from this site:

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/intercepts/0

Unfortunately, the ULTRA decrypts in that database do not cover the whole war.

[gap]

I do have quite a lot of spare time I could use for research or other menial tasks like that.

another community project member in :up:

Now we are:

V13dweller
volodya61
Targor Avelany
keysersoze
gap

To be honest, I wish it was true...a high paying Google job would beat being a poor student :O:

Not to dimish your respectable student status, but I got to agree with you about the google job :haha:


Yes, I believe I still have the file. I will see if I can get it into google documents format. By the way, I am completely open to any other suggestions if you think there is an easier or better way. I thought it might be easier for you if we could all collaborate on a single document, rather than if you were forced to assemble each person's spreadsheet into a larger document.

From what I know of it, Google documents are fairly rudimentary, which is both a good thing and a bad thing for a project like this.

Despite the fact that I have never used google documents, I am sure that its spreadsheet functionalities will be more than enough for our purposes: this is a job that could be done with notepad :yep:


I'm pretty sure I saw the Silva Plana escort mission mentioned in your additional missions mod for OHII, so I was sure to include the radio messages for it. By the way, if you can get a copy of Wolfgang Hirschfield's diary, you can read an interesting account of the mission (he was the chief radio operator on U109).

I will try to put my hands on this book. Thank you for your suggestion :up:


I am trying to add as many historical radio messages as I can for each mission from this site:

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/intercepts/0

Unfortunately, the ULTRA decrypts in that database do not cover the whole war.

Once more, interesting information on standing orders and boat/BdU/FdU messages can be found also on uboatarchive. Indices at the following pages:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm
http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBList.htm

[Sartoris]

I would be willing to contribute, but I work best when I am delegated duties. Don't rely on me to dig up some obscure sites or documents. If the leader of the project can provide me with a link and a clear-cut mission I will do my best to fulfill the task. :up:

[gap]

I would be willing to contribute, but I work best when I am delegated duties. Don't rely on me to dig up some obscure sites or documents. If the leader of the project can provide me with a link and a clear-cut mission I will do my best to fulfill the task. :up:

Thank you Sartoris, :up:

List update:

Sartoris
V13dweller
volodya61
Targor Avelany
keysersoze
gap

as we speak I am preparing some documentation explaining all you need to know before you start working on this projetc :03:

[keysersoze]

I would be willing to contribute, but I work best when I am delegated duties. Don't rely on me to dig up some obscure sites or documents. If the leader of the project can provide me with a link and a clear-cut mission I will do my best to fulfill the task. :up:

Thanks Sartoris :salute:

Thank you Sartoris, :up:
as we speak I am preparing some documentation explaining all you need to know before you start working on this projetc :03:

Sounds good :up: I converted your spreadsheet into Google docs format. Let me know what you think. I have not yet added the last two sheets (the ones with standard deviation and averages on them) because I honestly have no idea what they mean :doh::O: I remember you mentioned something about deducing torpedo loadouts by using some kind of formula--is this what those sheets are for?

[Sartoris]

Thank you Sartoris, :up:

List update:

Sartoris
V13dweller
volodya61
Targor Avelany
keysersoze
gap

as we speak I am preparing some documentation explaining all you need to know before you start working on this projetc :03:

Excellent, looking forward to it! I've actually been thinking about a project like this one for a while now, so I'm extremely happy to see so many others interested in it.:up:

[Dogfish40]

Excellent, looking forward to it! I've actually been thinking about a project like this one for a while now, so I'm extremely happy to see so many others interested in it.:up:

Love doing any research WWII realted. If you need any further help, just point me in a direction. I love archiving and History.
Just drop me a line.
D40:salute:

[keysersoze]

Love doing any research WWII realted. If you need any further help, just point me in a direction. I love archiving and History.
Just drop me a line.
D40:salute:

Thanks Dogfish :salute:

Our current list:

Dogfish40
Sartoris
V13dweller
volodya61
Targor Avelany
keysersoze
gap

[gap]

Excellent, looking forward to it! I've actually been thinking about a project like this one for a while now, so I'm extremely happy to see so many others interested in it.:up:

Love doing any research WWII realted. If you need any further help, just point me in a direction. I love archiving and History.
Just drop me a line.
D40:salute:

Thank you guys, your help is highly appreciated! :yep: :salute:


Sounds good :up: I converted your spreadsheet into Google docs format. Let me know what you think. I have not yet added the last two sheets (the ones with standard deviation and averages on them) because I honestly have no idea what they mean :doh::O: I remember you mentioned something about deducing torpedo loadouts by using some kind of formula--is this what those sheets are for?

Exactly, but we can ignore those two sheets for now. I am still working on a spreadsheet that will help us filling in the chart you have just prepared. I hope to post it here tomorrow, but let's give some some more explaination on how we are going arrange our data.

For a start, most of the information we are to collect is kindly provided by uboat.net. Most of you are probably familiar with this popular website, but a reminder won't hurt. :03: At this link (http://uboat.net/boats/listing.html) you can see an index of all the boats whose logs were recorded, from U-1 to U-4712. From there, we can access the pages relative to any singular U-boat, with information on its career, successes, fate an notable events that the given boat was involved in. Take note of them, because they can come in handy for our purposes. Clicking on the number of patrols in the 'Career' section, we will be displayed with a second page, showing a list of the patrols carried out by the boat. For each patrol are listed: Commander (name and ranking), Departure and Arrival (ports and dates), Days spent at sea, ad Tons sunk. Further details on each patrol can be obtained by clicking on its respective 'view' link. Patrol-specific pages feature a map, showing the general route followed by the boat and some marks denoting attacks on Allied ships and/or by enemy forces (click on them for seeing their details), a list of dates (click on them for getting the daily position logs), ships hit during the patrol (again click on them for details), General events and again attacks suffered during the patrol. Asyou can see, there's some redundancy in the information provided, but I suggest you to read thoroughly each section, because sometimes what was overlooked in a section, is discussed in the next one, though at a glance you might tink that they are presenting the same information. :yep:

The above are our inputs. Let's discuss our expected outputs now. The collected data is going to be arranged in many pages, one for each month of the war. Each page will be divided on turn in several sections, one for each U-boat type. This is going to make things easier, if we want the correct unit type to be spawned in game. For the time being we will stick to types VIIA, B, C and C/41, but as soon as new sub will be released (in Targor we Trust! :D), types II, IX, XIV and XXI will follow. Each section is composed by n rows (depending on the number of U-boats of that type on patrol on the given month), and 29 to 32 columns (one for each day of the month + 1 for U-boat names). The information relative to each U-boat will be divided into 3 consecutive rows: one row for the daily position, another row for commander's name (I just got this idea from keysersoze :D), and one last row containing information on the current status of the boat. Something like this:

2/001/026/00/007/3/1


First digit - boat's doctrine in four levels:


0 - the boat is unavailable (tracking down/attacking its own target, evading an enemy attack and/or seriously damaged);
1 - the boat has a low chance of responding our request of support, and only within a very short range from her current position (boat damaged, or currently carrying on special duties);
2 - the boat is available for joint operations with a medium chance of joining our attack, and a relatively long range of action from her logged position;
3 - the boat is currently involved in wolf pack operations: 100% chance of responding our call, but only within a limited range.


Second three digits - days elapsed from the beginning of the patrol;

Third three digits - total lenght (in days) of the patrol. This number and the previous one will help deciding if the boat can support us, when doctrine is not 0 (0% probability) or 3 (100% probability).

Forth two digits - ships sunk/damaged since the beginning of the patrol. By confrontation of 2 consecutive dates, it could be used for generating historical sinking reports, for instance: "17.09.39 - U-29 (Kptlt. Otto Schuhart) - Ship sunk pos 50.10N 14.45W". The same can be done for other reports by further differentiating the doctrine digit (wolfpack operations, boats heading to base, attacks suffered, etc.)

Fifth two digits - torpedoes carried at the beginning of the patrol. This number and the previous one will also determine wether a boat can cope our call for help or not.

Sixth digit - crew ranking from 0 to 4, poor to elite (in case TDW got control on the ranking of spawned U-boats). It can be set following the ranking of the commander, or according to our judgement of the result obtained by any given U-boat crew.

Seventh digit - fate: 0 (good bye: this is the last day of the boat) or 1 (die hard!), also useful for automatically generated reports.


The spreadsheet that I am currently working on, will in fact help us generating quickly the above numbers on the base of few inputs. What do you think guys? Any suggestion? :hmm2:

[TheDarkWraith]

Yes I can read and set the unit's veterancy level using assembly :up:

[gap]

Yes I can read and set the unit's veterancy level using assembly :up:

That's perfect. :up:

Any other suggestion TDW? Do you see any redundant or lacking information in my draft?

[keysersoze]

The spreadsheet that I am currently working on, will in fact help us generating quickly the above numbers on the base of few inputs. What do you think guys? Any suggestion? :hmm2:

Looks great :yeah:

One minor suggestion would be to only use the commander's last name, rather than his full name and rank. BdU alternated addressing U-boats by the boat name (e.g. U47), the commander's last name (e.g. Prien), or the, rarely, a code (usually a random assortment of numbers like 006453). From the messages I have read from the database linked below, the last name was the most common method, especially in the later war. The link below is an example of one such message (an ULTRA decrypt). Anything contained with the double parentheses is an addition by British intelligence so the Admiralty could track which boats had which captains.

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/intercept/1775

[gap]

Looks great :yeah:

One minor suggestion would be to only use the commander's last name, rather than his full name and rank. BdU alternated addressing U-boats by the boat name (e.g. U47), the commander's last name (e.g. Prien), or the, rarely, a code (usually a random assortment of numbers like 006453). From the messages I have read from the database linked below, the last name was the most common method, especially in the later war. The link below is an example of one such message (an ULTRA decrypt). Anything contained with the double parentheses is an addition by British intelligence so the Admiralty could track which boats had which captains.

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/intercept/1775

Yes, I thought about it. As far as we mantain rank, name and surname as three different blocks, separated by two spaces, it shouldn't be difficult for TDW to isolate the desired element, or even to recombine the three of them at wish :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

Yes, I thought about it. As far as we mantain rank, name and surname as three different blocks, separated by two spaces, it shouldn't be difficult for TDW to isolate the desired element, or even to recombine the three of them at wish :hmm2:

Sounds good to me:yep:

As we go along, I can also cross-reference our data with the special operations information I have. Many of these missions are listed on uboat.net, but there are a lot of notable exceptions.

[gap]

Sounds good to me:yep:

As we go along, I can also cross-reference our data with the special operations information I have. Many of these missions are listed on uboat.net, but there are a lot of notable exceptions.

Yes, many. I have just mentioned uboat.net in my previous post because I didn't want to discourage people willing to help but not wanting to turn themselves in historians. Provided that our little team will grow up, maybe we can create two sub teams, one taking care of dates/coordinates, and another one dealing with the "magic numbers" :hmmm:

[keysersoze]

Yes, many. I have just mentioned uboat.net in my previous post because I didn't want to discourage people willing to help but not wanting to turn themselves in historians. Provided that our little team will grow up, maybe we can create two sub teams, one taking care of dates/coordinates, and another one dealing with the "magic numbers" :hmmm:

Yes, I think uboat.net is the best place to start. It is accessible and straightforward. We can tackle more complex tasks later if all goes well. Again, the possibilities with a collaborative approach are almost limitless, as long as there are volunteers.

I would suggest, though, that we deliberately aim for an easily-achievable goal for the first installment of this project. That way, the project won't seem too daunting, we will have a nice sense of accomplishment after having finished the first portion, and it will allow us to check our work to see if any modifications are needed.

EDIT: what did you mean by "magic numbers?"

[gap]

Yes, I think uboat.net is the best place to start. It is accessible and straightforward. We can tackle more complex tasks later if all goes well. Again, the possibilities with a collaborative approach are almost limitless, as long as there are volunteers.

I would suggest, though, that we deliberately aim for an easily-achievable goal for the first installment of this project. That way, the project won't seem too daunting, we will have a nice sense of accomplishment after having finished the first portion, and it will allow us to check our work to see if any modifications are needed.

I agree :up:

EDIT: what did you mean by "magic numbers?"

[gap]

Yes, I think uboat.net is the best place to start. It is accessible and straightforward. We can tackle more complex tasks later if all goes well. Again, the possibilities with a collaborative approach are almost limitless, as long as there are volunteers.

I would suggest, though, that we deliberately aim for an easily-achievable goal for the first installment of this project. That way, the project won't seem too daunting, we will have a nice sense of accomplishment after having finished the first portion, and it will allow us to check our work to see if any modifications are needed.

I fully agree with you :up:

EDIT: what did you mean by "magic numbers?"

2/001/026/00/007/3/1 ;)

[keysersoze]

2/001/026/00/007/3/1 ;)[/QUOTE]

Got it, and I agree :up:

[Dogfish40]

Thank you guys, your help is highly appreciated! :yep: :salute:




The spreadsheet that I am currently working on, will in fact help us generating quickly the above numbers on the base of few inputs. What do you think guys? Any suggestion? :hmm2:

This sounds good to start. I like the idea of this spreadsheet 'cause it will keep everyones research the same. Easy to understand, and fast.
I'll be waiting for the spreadsheet.
And I agree, U-Boat.net is a very deep website with a lot to offer. It's also the one with the most staying power, it's been there quite a while.
2/001/026/00/007/3/1 This is good!

[keysersoze]

This sounds good to start. I like the idea of this spreadsheet 'cause it will keep everyones research the same. Easy to understand, and fast.
I'll be waiting for the spreadsheet.
And I agree, U-Boat.net is a very deep website with a lot to offer. It's also the one with the most staying power, it's been there quite a while.

Hi Dogfish,

If you want a preview of the spreadsheets, you can click on the link in post #9, then on the "U-boat Positions" document. Don't start recording any U-boat positions just yet, as I think gap probably wants to make some alterations to the format. The other spreadsheet ("U-boat Special Operations") is something I have been putting together for a few weeks. Feel free to contribute to it if you have the inclination or the time.

:salute:

[Dogfish40]

Hi Dogfish,

If you want a preview of the spreadsheets, you can click on the link in post #9, then on the "U-boat Positions" document. Don't start recording any U-boat positions just yet, as I think gap probably wants to make some alterations to the format. The other spreadsheet ("U-boat Special Operations") is something I have been putting together for a few weeks. Feel free to contribute to it if you have the inclination or the time.

:salute:

Thanks, I'm copying everything I can find, I'll check #9. I was also concerned that at some point we may "bump heads". We might need a moderator sometime to make sure we're not working on the same things. This would have to be someone who knows exactly what research needs we have at any givin time. Or has this been mentioned yet? :hmmm:

[Targor Avelany]

sorry for lack of replies on my part - I got over-busy-over-excited yesterday with my IXb project (my little baby fired torps and sunk its first ship in a test mission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woot::sunny:)

I will be coming back to this and helping you guys out in the shortest time!

[Sartoris]

sorry for lack of replies on my part - I got over-busy-over-excited yesterday with my IXb project (my little baby fired torps and sunk its first ship in a test mission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woot::sunny:)

I will be coming back to this and helping you guys out in the shortest time!

:yeah:

Any screenshots that you could share with us?:)

[keysersoze]

Thanks, I'm copying everything I can find, I'll check #9.

Like I said, no need to start copying coordinates just yet; let's wait for the go-ahead from gap first. If you're referring to the U-boat missions document, I'm thinking about starting a post for that with more specific suggestions about how people can help if they want.


I was also concerned that at some point we may "bump heads". We might need a moderator sometime to make sure we're not working on the same things. This would have to be someone who knows exactly what research needs we have at any givin time. Or has this been mentioned yet? :hmmm:

Yes, we should talk about organization and delegation. I think we should defer to gap on the U-boat positions project, since it was his idea to begin with. As other project ideas are put forward, we can discuss moderation and organization at that time.


sorry for lack of replies on my part - I got over-busy-over-excited yesterday with my IXb project (my little baby fired torps and sunk its first ship in a test mission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woot::sunny:)

I will be coming back to this and helping you guys out in the shortest time!


Awesome Targor! It sounds like you're making excellent progress on that IX :rock::rock::rock:

[Grizwald]

I am extremely excited to hear the IX project is progressing, I know allot of us are! Best of luck with it Targor! :salute:

[Kromus]

I am extremely excited to hear the IX project is progressing, I know allot of us are! Best of luck with it Targor! :salute:

Same here, it seems there are many more ppl are hoping for first playable (plus new detailed model) type IX so fingers crossed and hoping all goes well with your project Targor :up:

[Targor Avelany]

Same here, it seems there are many more ppl are hoping for first playable (plus new detailed model) type IX so fingers crossed and hoping all goes well with your project Targor :up:

Thank you for the support, guys.

I probably should start a thread on this project, as it seems I keep stealing space in other threads (i.e. here, gr2 thread, etc).

Just a note: not playable yet (working on AI unit) and not new detailed model (that is WAAAAYYY OUT to go, I just purchased VERY DETAILED plans for U-505, so will be able to start working on that, but still a very long time).

So, keep this thread on topic, as this community project is, in my opinion, is a try-out for this community to start looking at making a mega-mod in a year or two.

[markdenny]

Would there be a chance of getting tomi's type 2 u boat from sh4 with all the interior to work on sh5 that would be fantastic aswell really looking forward to a type 9 though will you be doing the inside aswell or using the type7 interior ? :D

[Targor Avelany]

guys, as I just said - let's not derail this thread, as I believe it is a very good thread.
I'll start a new thread tomorrow and will keep it updated and answer all the questions

[gap]

Hi guys, sorry for keeping silent in the last days.

Against my promises, yesterday I didn't get time to finish my spreadsheet, but I worked on it mentally and I have come to rethink some features which will increase the information it will be able to process, by keeping its compiling as easy and fast as possible.

My ideas, if you accept them, are relative to the first and the last flag in the "magic number" that I have discussed the day before yesterday:

2/001/026/00/007/3/1

The first "flag", let's call it "doctrine" will still dictate the probability of an U-boat being considered to be dispatched for supporting our attack (if this first test is passed, TDW's patch should check if the unit got enough torpedoes and fuel by comparing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th number). I added a new level though:

0 - unit unavailable;
1 - low dispatching chance, only if it the sub is at close range from our current position;
2 - medium chance, close range;
3 - medium chance, long range;
4 - high chance, medium range.

What changes is the way my calculator will generate the above numbers for each date/position, without need by you to set them arbitrarily (see below). As for the last flag, the purple one, I have decided to make it into a referece for generating U-boat to BdU and BdU to U-boat reports. This is the list of the possible messages that have come to my mind:

0 - none
1 - B.dU: U-boat outbound
2 - Proceeding to operation area
3 - Report current patrol area
4 - Joining wolfpack
5 - Leaving wolfpack
6 - Mission accomplished, resuming normal patrol
7 - Mission aborted, resuming normal patrol
8 - Report single contact detected
9 - Report convoy detected
10 - Report successful attack
11 - Report unsuccessful attack
12 - Warships/taskforce detected – maintaining radio silence
13 - Aircraft sighted – maintaining radio silence
14 - Survived warship attack, continuing patrol
15 - Survived air attack, continuing patrol
16 - Survived combined attack, continuing patrol
17 - B.d.U: U-boat missing in action
18 - Proceeding to main route
19 - Ending patrol/returning to base
20 - B.d.U: order to head for base
21 - Malfunctioning: heading base for repairs
22 - Suffered damage by warship attack: heading to base for repairs
23 - Suffered damage by air attack: heading to base for repairs
24 - Suffered damage by combined attack: heading to base for repairs
25 - B.d.U: U-boat inbound

Besides increasing immersion, the above messages, played with a random chance (possibly affected by the doctrine flag), would give us precious information on the current position and state of our possible helpers. Again, you won't need to set the above flags manually. All you need to set for each date is a 'current activity' cell. The possible tags selectable through a drop-down menu that I thought of so far, are:


Sailing to patrol area: this is meant as start of "normal" tonnage patrols; you should set this tag from when the boat leaved her base to when she started her actual patrol.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 3
Corresponding message: IF current cell IS first day of patrol: 1 ELSE: 0


Sailing to/from operation area: as above, but used for when the boat had to carry out special duties which required stealth and/or a timely accomplishment/coordination with other units, or more in general when the boat was sailing under strict B.d.U. orders. Unlike the previous tag, it doesn't necessarily need to be set from when the boat had left her base: an U-boat could have start a normal patrol and then, while still at sea, headed to operation area for accomplishing her special duties. As the name suggests, it can also be used for when an U-boat had to move from her special operation area to a "safer" location. NOTE: short special missions, starting and ending at base, can start with a 'sailing to/from operation area' tag, but they shoul end with one of the 'bound to base'.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 1
Corresponding message: IF current cell IS first day of patrol: 1 ELSE IF previous cell IS 'carrying out special ops' OR 'mission aborted': 18 ELSE IF previous cell IS NOT 'sailing to/from operation area': 2 ELSE: 0


Normal patrol: this is the default U-boat activity (if no tag is set, this one will be used), used for tonnage patrols, and it should normally follow the 'sailing to patrol area' tag. Setting the moment that an U-boat ended its passage to patrol area and actually started its patrol might be a bit arbitrary. You can use as reference the moment that the given boat started circling in enemy waters, or that the distance between consecutive position logs became comparatively shorter.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 3
Corresponding message: IF previous cell IS NOT 'normal patrol': 3 ELSE: 0


War patrol (strict orders): this is similar to the previous tag, but it applies to when the boat had to track down/hunt a specific target (esp. military units), when it sneaked into enemy ports (eg Prien's attack at Scapa Flow) or when a precise order of battles was involved (eg Operation Weserubung). Wol fpack operations not included. It normally , but not necessarily follows the 'sailing to/from operation area'tag

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 4
Corresponding message: IF previous cell IS NOT 'war patrol (strict orders)': 3 ELSE: 0


Wolf pack hunting: quite self-explanatory. Set it from when the boat joined an historical wolf pack to when it left it.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 4
Corresponding message: IF previous cell is IS 'sailing to patrol area' OR 'sailing to/from operation area' OR 'normal patrol' OR 'carrying out special ops': 4 ELSE IF next cell IS 'normal patrol' OR 'war patrol (strict orders)' OR 'sailing to/from operation area' OR 'carrying out special ops' OR 'bound to base': 5 ELSE: 0


Carrying out special ops: any type of special operation which didn't involve hunting enemy ships: mine laying, escorting friendly units, reckoning missions, spy dropping, equipment transports, short transfers from base to base, etc. Weather reporting duties and refits at sea not included (you should tag them as 'normal patrol'instead).

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF next cell IS 'sailing to/from operation area': 6 ELSE: 0


Mission aborted: set this tag at the end of a 'carrying out special ops'set of cells, if you know that for some reason the mission had to be aborted.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 1
Corresponding message: 7


Shadowing single unit: set this tag if you know that on that day an U-boat had reported a single contact or, arbitrarily, one day before the date a ship was historically attacked by the given U-boat.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 2
Corresponding message: 8


Shadowing convoy: same as above, for convoys.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 2
Corresponding message: 9


Attacking contact: set this tag for historical U-boat attacks on enemy ships, whether successful or not.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 1
Corresponding message: IF sunk/damaged ships > 0: 10 ELSE: 11


Avoiding enemy warships: tag used for when an U-boat, undetected, spotted enemy ASW patrols or task forces, having to avoid their surveillance. Not applied to convoy escorts.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF previous cell IS NOT 'avoiding enemy warships': 12 ELSE: 0


Avoiding enemy planes: same as above, but for airplanes.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF previous cell IS NOT 'avoiding enemy planes': 13 ELSE: 0


Facing warship attack: same as 'avoiding enemy warships', but the U-boat was detected and had to adopt evasive maneuvers.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF next cell IS NOT 'facing warship attack' NOR 'facing air attack' NOR 'facing combined attack' NOR 'bound to base for repairs' NOR 'U-boat destroyed': 14 ELSE: 0


Facing air attack: same as above, but for airplanes.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF next cell IS NOT 'facing warship attack' NOR 'facing air attack' NOR 'facing combined attack' NOR 'bound to base for repairs' NOR 'U-boat destroyed': 15 ELSE: 0


Facing combined attack: same as above, but the U-boat was attacked by both warships and airplanes.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF next cell IS NOT 'facing warship attack' NOR 'facing air attack' NOR 'facing combined attack' NOR 'bound to base for repairs' NOR 'U-boat destroyed': 16 ELSE: 0


U-boat destroyed: self explanatory

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: 17


Bound to base: set this tag from when the boat started her return passage to when it entered port. See my comments about the 'normal patrol'tag, on how to estimate when this tag should start.

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 3
Corresponding message: IF current cell IS last day of patrol: 25 ELSE IF previous cell IS NOT 'bound to base' NOR 'bound to base by BdU order' NOR 'bound to base for repairs': 19 ELSE:0


Bound to base by BdU order: similar to the previous tag, but the U-boat is ordered by B.d.U. to return urgently to base .

Corresponding doctrine: IF previous cell IS 'avoiding enemy warship' OR 'avoiding enemy planes' OR 'facing warship attack' OR 'facing air attack' OR 'facing combined attack': 0 ELSE: 1
Corresponding message: IF current cell IS last day of patrol: 25 ELSE IF previous cell IS NOT 'bound to base' NOR 'bound to base by BdU order' NOR 'bound to base for repairs': 20 ELSE:0


Bound to base for repairs: similar to the previous tag, but the boat had to anticipate her return to base, due to technical problems or to damage suffered during an enemy attack.

Corresponding doctrine: 0
Corresponding message: IF previous cell IS NOT 'bound to base' NOR 'bound to base by BdU order' NOR 'bound to base for repairs' NOR 'facing warship attack' NOR 'facing air attack' NOR 'facing combined attack': 21 ELSE IF previous cell IS 'facing warship attack': 22 ELSE IF previous cell IS 'facing air attack': 23 ELSE IF previous cell IS 'facing combined attack': 24 ELSE IF current cell IS last day of patrol: 25 ELSE:0


As you can see from my pseudo code, all the tags/flag system is context sensitive, so to allow the maximum information with as few inputs as possible. After entering the required data, the spreadsheet will generate automatically some rows that you will copy/paste into keysersoze's google document file.

Lastly, I have implemented a cool feature for showing historical U-boat's routes on the SH5 map, and marking selected points on it. Useful for checking the correctness of the coordinates reported by uboat.net, and for better understanding what was going on during each patrol. :sunny:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1001/routea.jpg

Any suggestion? :)

[Targor Avelany]

Very nice! No real suggestions, beside, maybe, when we actually get to it, splitting uboat ranges between people working, so there would not be an overlap.

[keysersoze]

Sorry for the late response; I've been traveling today.

This is what I think of your ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih6XjO_fhrI

:O:

This looks brilliant gap :yeah: I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but this level of detail, if it can be patched into the game, could revolutionize SH5 by providing a truly dynamic BdU/U-boat relationship.

How do you think we should split up the work? I like the idea of dividing it by U-boat type, but we would not have data on the Hundius flotilla if we only did the Type VII boats in the beginning. The Hundius Type IXs made up a large portion of the U-boat arm in the early war, especially since there were so few boats in total, and they were very involved in early wolfpack operations in the Western Approaches and off Gibraltar. Any ideas?

[Dogfish40]

Hi guys, sorry for keeping silent in the last days.

Against my promises, yesterday I didn't get time to finish my spreadsheet, but I worked on it mentally and I have come to rethink some features which will increase the information it will be able to process, by keeping its compiling as easy and fast as possible.

My ideas, if you accept them, are relative to the first and the last flag in the "magic number" that I have discussed the day before yesterday:

2/001/026/00/007/3/1



Any suggestion? :)

This looks really really good. I can't suggest anything yet as I'm looking this all over. It's very good work Gap. Wow:up::up: I love the route Map

[gap]

First version of the U-boat coordinates generator available here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7__9ltm8QEmSnBXbXVtWXdoSjA/edit?usp=sharing

I have added tooltip notes to most of the editable settings; moreover, by way of example, the spreadsheet comes with the data taken from U-30's 3rd war patrol. In order to make the spreadsheet more user friendly, I have used the following color code:

light blue/purple cells: labels
white cells: user input
light purple cells: informative cells
ocre cells: output

There are still some functions and some data entries that I want to add to it, but before we actually start working on the final "TDW-readable" U-boat logs, I think you can start playing with my spreadsheet, in order to familiarize with it and to report any mistake by me or feature that could be improved. :yep:


This looks brilliant gap :yeah: I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but this level of detail, if it can be patched into the game, could revolutionize SH5 by providing a truly dynamic BdU/U-boat relationship.

I agree, implementing our idea would add a whole new dimension to the game.

At the time being I am trying to make my U-boat logs generating spreadsheet to process as much information as it can be recorded in a compact format. Nonetheless, the fact that I thought of some features, or that some information is recorded in the generated logs, doesn't necessarily mean that TDW will be able to use all of it. Before we start with the data collection work, we should wait for his opinion on what can and what cannot be done. An example? A cool feature would be if TDW's code could read two consecutive position logs, and plot an intermediate position based on current time. In this way we would simulate submarines moving between two points, instead of jumping from one point to the next one. Nonetheless, this feature could cause TDW to spawn subs on land, if the two points are too close to land masses. In order to avoid it, I have added an user settable flag which would tell TDW's code not to interpolate among two given points. This flag will be absolutely useless, unless TDW can code the intermediate coordinates plotting feature...


How do you think we should split up the work? I like the idea of dividing it by U-boat type, but we would not have data on the Hundius flotilla if we only did the Type VII boats in the beginning. The Hundius Type IXs made up a large portion of the U-boat arm in the early war, especially since there were so few boats in total, and they were very involved in early wolfpack operations in the Western Approaches and off Gibraltar. Any ideas?

I think by the time we have finished collecting information on type VII U-boat, Targor will get his type IX finished, and we will start working on type IX's logs. :03:

Thanks, I'm copying everything I can find, I'll check #9. I was also concerned that at some point we may "bump heads". We might need a moderator sometime to make sure we're not working on the same things. This would have to be someone who knows exactly what research needs we have at any givin time. Or has this been mentioned yet? :hmmm:

Very nice! No real suggestions, beside, maybe, when we actually get to it, splitting uboat ranges between people working, so there would not be an overlap.

Good remark guys!

I also agree that we need for a coordinator. My personal vote goes to keysersoze :up:

[Targor Avelany]

I also agree that we need for a coordinator. My personal vote goes to keysersoze :up:

strongly support! :yeah:

[keysersoze]

First version of the U-boat coordinates generator available here:
...


Fantastic work gap :salute: You have done an excellent job combining functionality and simplicity. Hopefully that will attract more people to the project. I'll start experimenting with your coordinates generator tomorrow and will let you know if I think of any suggestions.


I agree, implementing our idea would add a whole new dimension to the game....


Another feature to ask TDW about is the possibility of having AI U-boats report a convoy if they are in close proximity. This might be tricky to code, but it would represent the true implementation of dynamic wolfpacks, where either the player or the AI could be the contact-keeper.


I think by the time we have finished collecting information on type VII U-boat, Targor will get his type IX finished, and we will start working on type IX's logs. :03:


Very true—we will have our hands full with the Type VIIs.


I also agree that we need for a coordinator. My personal vote goes to keysersoze :up:

strongly support! :yeah:

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys. I would be honored to coordinate, although I think we should defer to gap as well, since this project was originally his idea.

[gap]

Fantastic work gap :salute: You have done an excellent job combining functionality and simplicity. Hopefully that will attract more people to the project. I'll start experimenting with your coordinates generator tomorrow and will let you know if I think of any suggestions.

:up:

Another feature to ask TDW about is the possibility of having AI U-boats report a convoy if they are in close proximity. This might be tricky to code, but it would represent the true implementation of dynamic wolfpacks, where either the player or the AI could be the contact-keeper.

Excellent idea!


Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.

you deserved it :)


I would be honored to coordinate, although I think we should defer to gap as well, since this project was originally his idea.

I am already busy with too many projects, Daniel. Moreover, starting from the next week I have a schedule of several short trips abroad which will reduce my free time. I will be glad to contribute to this project with suggestions, data collection and by further improving the log generating spreadsheet if required, but in my opinion you are still the best candidate for group coordination :yep:

[keysersoze]

I am already busy with too many projects, Daniel. I will be glad to contribute to this project with suggestions, data collection and by further improving the log generating spreadsheet if required, but in my opinion you are still the best candidate for group coordination :yep:

Understood. You have your hand in many things; I would be happy to coordinate day-to-day operations. After class today, I will play around with the spreadsheet and think about the best way to divide up the workload. As mentioned before, I'm inclined to favor a realistic and easily-achievable goal for the first portion of data collecting. Perhaps beginning with only the Type VIIAs would be appropriate. There were only ten of them, so each volunteer could focus on one or two U-boats.

Two questions:
1. How should we deal with rebasing missions? Should we record them for the sake of completeness? Should they be considered separate patrols?

2. Do you guys think it would be appropriate to start a new thread for the coordinates project? This thread was a general inquiry about the possibility of community projects. A new thread would allow us to clearly and concisely present this project, offer instructions and hints, and hopefully attract more volunteers. That way, subsimmers wouldn't have to read through 4 pages of posts to familiarize themselves with our ideas.

(more to come in a few hours)

Moreover, starting from the next week I have a schedule of several short trips abroad which will reduce my free time.

gute jagd on your patrols abroad, Herr Kaleun, and don't forget to send weather reports from time to time. :salute: :O:

[gap]

Understood. You have your hand in many things; I would be happy to coordinate day-to-day operations. After class today, I will play around with the spreadsheet and think about the best way to divide up the workload.

:yeah:

As mentioned before, I'm inclined to favor a realistic and easily-achievable goal for the first portion of data collecting.

My only concern is that on the way we might change idea on some of the numerical parameters I have included in the generated logs, and that we would be forced to restart (almost) from zero. So yes, I agree that the best approach is to start with a limited number of U-boats, and wait for TDW to start working on them. :yep:


Perhaps beginning with only the Type VIIAs would be appropriate. There were only ten of them, so each volunteer could focus on one or two U-boats.

U-boats from U-27 to U-32 are almost ready yet; if you explain me how to access your google document, I will start updating it with them. :03:
Other volunteers could focus on the remaining Type VIIA and on the VIIB. What do you think?


1. How should we deal with rebasing missions? Should we record them for the sake of completeness? Should they be considered separate patrols?

I think so: provided that we are talking about front line boats, each passage from base to base should be considered as a separate patrol, even though it was just a short transfer, or an aborted patrol. By setting the daily tags appropriately, we can make these U-boat not as aggressive or responsive as during "normal patrols".


2. Do you guys think it would be appropriate to start a new thread for the coordinates project? This thread was a general inquiry about the possibility of community projects. A new thread would allow us to clearly and concisely present this project, offer instructions and hints, and hopefully attract more volunteers. That way, subsimmers wouldn't have to read through 4 pages of posts to familiarize themselves with our ideas.

Yes, either start a new thread or ask a moderator to change the title of this thread. A while ago the moderator dealing with this kind of stuff was CCIP, if I remember correctly.


gute jagd on your patrols abroad, Herr Kaleun, and don't forget to send weather reports from time to time. :salute: :O:

Next patrol will be past the Bosphorus :arrgh!:

[keysersoze]

My only concern is that on the way we might change idea on some of the numerical parameters I have included in the generated logs, and that we would be forced to restart (almost) from zero. So yes, I agree that the best approach is to start with a limited number of U-boats, and wait for TDW to start working on them. :yep:


Okay, I will try to figure out a manageable workload tonight and will create a new thread.


U-boats from U-27 to U-32 are almost ready yet; if you explain me how to access your google document, I will start updating it with them. :03:
Other volunteers could focus on the remaining Type VIIA and on the VIIB. What do you think?


I see you have been productive :up: I accidentally had the document set to "View Only." I changed the status so that anyone with the link can edit it. Let me know if you still cannot access it.


I think so: provided that we are talking about front line boats, each passage from base to base should be considered as a separate patrol, even though it was just a short transfer, or an aborted patrol. By setting the daily tags appropriately, we can make these U-boat not as aggressive or responsive as during "normal patrols".


:up:


Next patrol will be past the Bosphorus :arrgh!:

Operating with 30. U-Flottille, I see. The Soviets will never see you coming :Kaleun_Los:

[volodya61]

...The Soviets will never see you coming :Kaleun_Los:
We can and we will see everything and everybody :cool:

(Big Brother.. and so on) :D

[keysersoze]

We can and we will see everything and everybody :cool:

(Big Brother.. and so on) :D

I have no doubt that the excellent Soviet intelligence will see gap coming, but will Stalin believe it? He didn't do very well in June 1941....:O:

[gap]

Operating with 30. U-Flottille, I see. The Soviets will never see you coming :Kaleun_Los:

I won't travel that much past Boshorus to pay a visit to Stalin and to my good friend Volodya ;)

We can and we will see everything and everybody :cool:

(Big Brother.. and so on) :D

I have no doubt that the excellent Soviet intelligence will see gap coming, but will Stalin believe it? He didn't do very well in June 1941....:O:

:huh:

believe it or not, I come in peace, let's not start a second cold war :haha:

[Targor Avelany]

We can and we will see everything and everybody :cool:

(Big Brother.. and so on) :D

you forgot an evil laugh

/mwahahahahahaha

@keysersoze:
Well, let's assign ranges and go! :)

[volodya61]

...but will Stalin believe it? He didn't do very well in June 1941....:O:

Maybe there were some reasons for.. who knows.. :06:

believe it or not, I come in peace, let's not start a second cold war :haha:

Well, you are right.. let's not start new war :up:.. :)

you forgot an evil laugh

/mwahahahahahaha

My bad.. I forgot it.. :oops:

:rotfl2:

[keysersoze]

you forgot an evil laugh
@keysersoze:
Well, let's assign ranges and go! :)

Working on it now. I'll be posting something in a bit.

Maybe there were some reasons for.. who knows.. :06:

Well, you are right.. let's not start new war :up:.. :)


There definitely were reasons for it... just kidding Volodya :sunny:

@gap: I am not able to edit the spreadsheet you uploaded to google drive. Is it view only?

[gap]

@gap: I am not able to edit the spreadsheet you uploaded to google drive. Is it view only?

Can't you download it? I think it is too complex to be edited online :yep:

[gap]

Small problem: I have just tried copying/pasting the first (and last) U-27's patrol into the google document you have shared. Unfortunately, it seems that pasting multiple cell selections is not supported, and copying cells one by one is a bit umpractical :-?

Am I missing any obvious method to do it? :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

Can't you download it? I think it is too complex to be edited online :yep:

Okay, I've downloaded it an everything makes sense. Since I'm fairly dense, I want to be absolutely clear about the process. Please let me know if the summary below is incorrect or incomplete.


In addition to general data like U-boat type and commander's name, we will have three major pieces of information to collect for each day of the patrol:

1. lat/long
2. number of ships sunk or damage
3. current activity

We will then enter that data into your original spreadsheet (the one I copied and posted as a google document). How do you want to transfer that data from the google spreadsheet into your much more attractive and more complex version?

Finally, the google docs spreadsheet contains cells for number of torpedoes and engaged ships, although you have also mentioned that you have used a statistical method to determine torpedo loadout. How do you want us to enter torpedo data?

[keysersoze]

Small problem: I have just tried copying/pasting the first (and last) U-27's patrol into the google document you have shared. Unfortunately, it seems that pasting multiple cell selections is not supported, and copying cells one by one is a bit umpractical :-?

Am I missing any obvious method to do it? :hmm2:

I haven't had a problem copying and pasting multiple cells. I just tested it by highlighting a series of horizontal cells within the spreadsheet, clicking on another cell (where I want the copied horizontal series to be pasted), and pasting it there.

I also tested it with a series of numbers from an external document, and it seemed to work.

[gap]

Okay, I've downloaded it an everything makes sense. Since I'm fairly dense, I want to be absolutely clear about the process.

Dense?! :huh: :haha:
Indeed you are not :03:


Please let me know if the summary below is incorrect or incomplete.

In addition to general data like U-boat type and commander's name, we will have three major pieces of information to collect for each day of the patrol:

1. lat/long
2. number of ships sunk or damage
3. current activity

Exact. Remember to record failed attacks that you know of with a 0 "ships sunk or damage" setting. Recording the attack in the "current activity" cell leaving the "ships sunk/damaged" blank, will be also okay. This will make the spreadsheet to generate a "failed attack" flag, and to increase the attack counter by 1.

In addition, there are 2 more inputs that you can use: "interpolate missing coordinates" will make the spreadsheet to calculate a set of intemediate coordinates between two given points (that you should mark with the tags "from this point >"/"< to this point". This is useful when some position logs are not recorded by uboat.net. Notice that this feature allows you to plot only an uninterrupted set of coordinates at a time. If you want to plot more that one set of coordinates, you should first interpolate the first set, copy the generated coordinates from the output section (first ocre row), paste them as input coordinates, and the go on with the next set of lacking coordinates. I hope I made myselfer clear here, but it is easier to do that to be explained.

The second set of inputs, "interpolate in game", is meant for marking two coordinates that shouldn't be interpolated in game (see one of my posts of yesterday for further explaination on its use). This setting will determine the 0/1 number after each coordinate, in the outputs first row. This leads me to think that I have made a mistake: the additional slash-digit after each coordinate, will make it unreadable as an input, thus making the whole 'multiple sets of lacking coordinates interpolation' process (see above) slower. I should either move this entry elsewhere, or make the spreadsheet to ignore that additional information, when reading an input coordinate. :yep:


We will then enter that data into your original spreadsheet (the one I copied and posted as a google document).

Exact :up:


How do you want to transfer that data from the google spreadsheet into your much more attractive and more complex version?

I thought of a simple copy/paste. Normally it is possible to do it from excel to excel (pasting the copied cells as values rather than as formulas), from excel to any text format and from text format to excel (as far as two consecutive columns are separated by a tabulation). Unfortunately, id doesn't seem to work from excel to google documents format :-?


Finally, the google docs spreadsheet contains cells for number of torpedoes and engaged ships, although you have also mentioned that you have used a statistical method to determine torpedo loadout. How do you want us to enter torpedo data?

This part should be coded by TDW. At the moment, my calculator spreadheet is keeping note of the torpedoes loaded aboard at the beginning of each patrol (this is what the U-boat type, mines carried and cargo onboard cells are meant for), and of the attacks performed during the patrol. When we are calling for reinforcements, if a friendly U-boat is in our area and available for supporting our attack (in conformity with the dispatch chance/dispatch range number), the next step should be checking if she got enough torpedoes. The starting torpedo loadout is taken, and for each performed attack a dice is rolled for determining how many torpedoes were spent, in a range from 0 to 4 (or whatever number we decide to use). Indeed the probability tha 0 or 4 torpedoes were used during an attack should be way lesser than 1 or 3 torpedoes, and on average, 2 torpedoes should be the rule. In order to make it to happen, we need mimic a normal distribution, and the calculations in the last two sheets of the spreadsheet I sent to you, are my (successful) attempt to do so using a quick method. :yep:

[gap]

I haven't had a problem copying and pasting multiple cells. I just tested it by highlighting a series of horizontal cells within the spreadsheet, clicking on another cell (where I want the copied horizontal series to be pasted), and pasting it there.

I also tested it with a series of numbers from an external document, and it seemed to work.

I cannot get it to work :hmm2:

This is the chart of the patrol I mentioned before

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2944/u27x.jpg

(green + signs = otbound passage; blue squares = patrol coordinates; yellow squares with the x sign = sunk ships; yellow triangle = enemy attack and U-boat MIA :dead:)

and this is the compact log:

053.31N 008.12E/1 054.20N 007.24E/1 055.08N 006.34E/1 055.57N 005.45E/1 057.45N 003.11E/1 060.27N 001.23E/1 061.21N 002.52W/1 060.27N 005.48W/1 059.33N 011.12W/1 056.51N 014.48W/1 055.03N 013.45W/1 055.03N 013.45W/1 055.03N 013.45W/1 055.03N 012.15W/1 055.03N 012.15W/1 055.03N 012.15W/1 055.03N 012.15W/1 055.57N 012.15W/1 055.57N 010.45W/1 055.03N 010.45W/1 055.03N 010.45W/1 055.57N 007.45W/1 055.30N 009.16W/1 055.03N 010.45W/1 053.50N 011.10W/1 055.57N 010.45W/1 056.51N 009.24W/1 057.45N 009.24W/1 058.35N 009.02W/1
Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz Lt/Johannes/Franz
3/001/029/00/11/01/1 3/002/029/00/11/00/1 3/003/029/00/11/00/1 3/004/029/00/11/00/1 3/005/029/00/11/00/1 3/006/029/00/11/00/1 3/007/029/00/11/00/1 3/008/029/00/11/00/1 3/009/029/00/11/00/1 3/010/029/00/11/03/1 3/011/029/00/11/00/1 3/012/029/00/11/00/1 3/013/029/00/11/00/1 3/014/029/00/11/00/1 3/015/029/00/11/00/1 3/016/029/00/11/00/1 3/017/029/00/11/00/1 3/018/029/00/11/00/1 3/019/029/00/11/00/1 3/020/029/00/11/00/1 3/021/029/00/11/00/1 1/022/029/01/11/11/1 3/023/029/01/11/03/1 3/024/029/01/11/00/1 1/025/029/02/11/11/1 3/026/029/02/11/03/1 3/027/029/02/11/00/1 3/028/029/02/11/00/1 0/029/029/02/11/18/1


can you paste it into the google document, starting from Aug 23, 1939?

[gap]

I cannot get it to work :hmm2:

Wait wait, it worked :yeah:

for some reason the google document wouldn't accept the right click/paste command, but Ctrl/V works flawlessy :doh:

[Targor Avelany]

I think it is better, if we work on a downloaded copy, followed by combining it all in and uploading it on the google.

That is where the break-down of who is working on which range of u-boats should help greatly.

p.s. also a question: how are we arranging it all on a spreadsheet?
Does each uboat gets its own sheet or we just make one under another?
I also don't seem to be able to see the u-boat #. (talking in regards to the link in post #49 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2035363&postcount=49))

[gap]

I think it is better, if we work on a downloaded copy, followed by combining it all in and uploading it on the google.

That is where the break-down of who is working on which range of u-boats should help greatly.

Why do you think so? As long as anyone knows what U-boat/patrols he should work on (for avoiding overlapping) and someone makes frequent back-up copies of the file (for avoiding unreparable mistakes), I don't see any problem about working on the same file at the same time. Of course, this working method requires that anyone adding a new log should check it for mistakes meticulously, before closing the document. :yep:


p.s. also a question: how are we arranging it all on a spreadsheet?
Does each uboat gets its own sheet or we just make one under another?

one sheet = one month. U-boats on whose patrol are overlapping on the same month are to be arranged one above another, preferably (but not necessarily) in numerical order. For making each sheet more readable, we can add an empty row beetwen two consecutive U-boats.


I also don't seem to be able to see the u-boat #. (talking in regards to the link in post #49 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2035363&postcount=49))

Yes, I didn't include U-boat numbers because they are not very recursive. Adding in the shared document three lines with the U-boat name for each month having at least one patrol log of the given boat is enough.

P.S: new log uploaded. This time it is Günter Kuhnke and the first patrol of his U-28 :know:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4104/u281.jpg

(white circle = single contact detected; red dash = inbound passage)

[keysersoze]

Wait wait, it worked :yeah:

for some reason the google document wouldn't accept the right click/paste command, but Ctrl/V works flawlessy :doh:

Sorry, I should have been more explicit that I was using ctrl + v.

I think it is better, if we work on a downloaded copy, followed by combining it all in and uploading it on the google.

That is where the break-down of who is working on which range of u-boats should help greatly.

p.s. also a question: how are we arranging it all on a spreadsheet?
Does each uboat gets its own sheet or we just make one under another?
I also don't seem to be able to see the u-boat #. (talking in regards to the link in post #49 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2035363&postcount=49))

I see your point. I think our confusion is stemming from the fact that we are trying to keep the older spreadsheet format even while we use gap's beautiful new coordinate generator. Maybe it would be simpler to design a google spreadsheet that exactly mimics the appearance of gap's user input section, but without any of the underlying formulas. We could then enter data into the appropriate, clearly-labeled cell, and copy & paste might be more straightforward. The advantage of doing it online is that we can constantly check each other's work, both for accuracy and as a troubleshooting reference. If doing it online adds more problems than it solves, then we should think of another method. What do you guys think? :hmmm:

The sheets are currently arranged by month/year. The U-boat numbers should be displayed in the leftmost column. Each U-boat currently has two rows. The first corresponds to daily positions; the second is the "magic number."

[gap]

The sheets are currently arranged by month/year. The U-boat numbers should be displayed in the leftmost column.

Yes, I had forgot to mention it


Each U-boat currently has two rows. The first corresponds to daily positions; the second is the "magic number."

If you check my updated patrols, I have added a third line, in conformity with the funky coordinates generator. What you need to do after using the generator:

1 - add one (or more) new sheet(s) to the online document, if it is the first time a patrol for the given month(s) is recorded in it, and add dates in the first row, from 1 to 31 (or 30, 28, 29).

2 - add a boat type header [SSTypeVII*] in the first column, if it is the first time a patrol for the given boat type is recorded on a certain month. By TDW's request, headers should have the same name as the cfg files in data/Roster/German/Submarine path (this makes me to think that we should add an _AI suffix at the end of the headers I have already set for type VIIA boats).

3 - under the correct header of the appropriate month(s), input three times the name of the U-boat whose patrol you are going to add. Preferably, if more U-boats of the same type are already recorded for that month(s), place the new log in U-boat name order, eventually adding new lines between two already logged boats.

4 - select the thre rows that a log generated by the calculator spreadheet is composed of, from the fist column to the last day of the first month of patrol, and paste them in the appropriate position of the first month of patrol of the shared document. Keep doing the same for each further month.

5 - fill the empty spaces (before the beginning of the patrol and after its end) with minus signs. These are place holders, telling TDW's code that at the current date the patrol for the boat recorded in the first colunmn has not started yet, or that it is already finished.

6 - months featuring no patrol by a boat, don't need to get its name recorded in the first column.

That's all, I think.

[keysersoze]

Well, I finally think I have it straight. Basically, we are using the coordinates generator to do exactly what its name suggests it does: to generate data, specifically the "magic number." Then we are using that data to populate the google docs spreadsheet. Actually, this is much simpler than I was imagining it to be since that all those seemingly complicated numbers are created for us.

For some reason, I had the process reversed. Rereading earlier posts, this all seems utterly obvious, and I'm sorry I've asked you too explain it so many times. Your explanations were spot on, but I wasn't grasping the big picture. Told you I could be dense... :doh:

[keysersoze]

What you need to do after using the generator...


Perfectly clear now. Thanks gap :yeah:


1 - add one (or more) new sheet(s) to the online document, if it is the first time a patrol for the given month(s) is recorded in it, and add dates in the first row, from 1 to 31 (or 30, 28, 29).


I've added sheets for all the remaining months, so this should no longer be necessary.

[keysersoze]

I just finished U-33's first patrol and have uploaded it to the google doc. We all should give gap a virtual round of applause (if not a standing ovation) for his incredible work on this generator. It is very straighforward and user-friendly, but the data it magically generates is anything but simple. I'm actually astounded by how easy it is to use.

:salute:

Before we open the floodgates and start the project for real, I think it would be best if each person does a single patrol--consider it a shakedown cruise. Then we can discuss any problems and offer suggestions for further refinement. If all goes well, I will start a new thread that will contain a concise summary of the project, step-by-step instructions for data collection, and U-boat assignments for each volunteer. I will update the assigments regularly so that you only need to glance at the first post to be reminded where to begin.


For now, let's each look at a single patrol:

Sartoris: U-34, 1st patrol (19/8/39-26/9/39)
V13dweller: U-34, 2nd patrol (17/10/39-12/11/39)
volodya61: U-34, 3rd patrol (1/1/40-6/2/40)
Targor Avelany: U-34, 4th patrol (11/3/40-30/3/40)
keysersoze: U-34, 5th & 6th patrols (3/4/40-30/4/40, 22/6/40-18/7/40)
gap: U-34, 7th patrol (23/7/40-3/8/40)
Is this okay with everyone? I think I included all those who expressed interest in helping, but let me know if I have excluded anybody. In the future, we will assign U-boat ranges, rather than single patrols.

Please post any suggestions or difficulties so we can create the most efficient process possible. This is exciting stuff guys! It will be a long process, but this could take SH5 to another level of dynamism, immersion, and fun.

EDIT: @gap - One suggestion I forgot to mention was perhaps allowing us to tag whether a ship was sunk by gunfire. uboat.net has a list of every merchant vessel sunk, so it is generally quite easy to determine whether it was a torpedo attack or deck gun attack. This could be very important for determining torpedo loadout for certain patrols. For example, on U-33's second patrol, she sank three small fishing vessels (all about 300 GRT) with her deck gun. I'm concerned that if I record three ships as sunk or damaged on this day, I will unnecessarily deprive Kplt. von Dresky of many of his eels.

[Dogfish40]

I just finished U-33's first patrol and have uploaded it to the google doc. We all should give gap a virtual round of applause (if not a standing ovation) for his incredible work on this generator. It is very straighforward and user-friendly, but the data it magically generates is anything but simple. I'm actually astounded by how easy it is to use.

:salute:

Before we open the floodgates and start the project for real, I think it would be best if each person does a single patrol--consider it a shakedown cruise. Then we can discuss any problems and offer suggestions for further refinement. If all goes well, I will start a new thread that will contain a concise summary of the project, step-by-step instructions for data collection, and U-boat assignments for each volunteer. I will update the assigments regularly so that you only need to glance at the first post to be reminded where to begin.



For now, let's each look at a single patrol:

Sartoris: U-34, 1st patrol (19/8/39-26/9/39)
V13dweller: U-34, 2nd patrol (17/10/39-12/11/39)
volodya61: U-34, 3rd patrol (1/1/40-6/2/40)
Targor Avelany: U-34, 4th patrol (11/3/40-30/3/40)
keysersoze: U-34, 5th & 6th patrols (3/4/40-30/4/40, 22/6/40-18/7/40)
gap: U-34, 7th patrol (23/7/40-3/8/40)
Is this okay with everyone? I think I included all those who expressed interest in helping, but let me know if I have excluded anybody. In the future, we will assign U-boat ranges, rather than single patrols.

Please post any suggestions or difficulties so we can create the most efficient process possible. This is exciting stuff guys! It will be a long process, but this could take SH5 to another level of dynamism, immersion, and fun.

EDIT: @gap - One suggestion I forgot to mention was perhaps allowing us to tag whether a ship was sunk by gunfire. uboat.net has a list of every merchant vessel sunk, so it is generally quite easy to determine whether it was a torpedo attack or deck gun attack. This could be very important for determining torpedo loadout for certain patrols. For example, on U-33's second patrol, she sank three small fishing vessels (all about 300 GRT) with her deck gun. I'm concerned that if I record three ships as sunk or damaged on this day, I will unnecessarily deprive Kplt. von Dresky of many of his eels.


Hi everyone,
Checking in. I've been verybusythe past couple days. I am playing catch up here so I'm reading and re-reading the past couple of days posts. I'm going to take you up on the "step by step" instructions. I'll be back.
D40

[Targor Avelany]

Love the idea.

I have only one problem: whenever I go to the link in post 49, I get the same spreadsheet, without updates or changes.

[gap]

I just finished U-33's first patrol and have uploaded it to the google doc. We all should give gap a virtual round of applause (if not a standing ovation) for his incredible work on this generator. It is very straighforward and user-friendly, but the data it magically generates is anything but simple. I'm actually astounded by how easy it is to use.

:smug: :O:


Before we open the floodgates and start the project for real, I think it would be best if each person does a single patrol--consider it a shakedown cruise. Then we can discuss any problems and offer suggestions for further refinement. If all goes well, I will start a new thread that will contain a concise summary of the project, step-by-step instructions for data collection, and U-boat assignments for each volunteer. I will update the assigments regularly so that you only need to glance at the first post to be reminded where to begin.

Excellent plan! :up:


For now, let's each look at a single patrol:

Sartoris: U-34, 1st patrol (19/8/39-26/9/39)
V13dweller: U-34, 2nd patrol (17/10/39-12/11/39)
volodya61: U-34, 3rd patrol (1/1/40-6/2/40)
Targor Avelany: U-34, 4th patrol (11/3/40-30/3/40)
keysersoze: U-34, 5th & 6th patrols (3/4/40-30/4/40, 22/6/40-18/7/40)
gap: U-34, 7th patrol (23/7/40-3/8/40)
Is this okay with everyone?

Yes sir :salute:
I am currently updating the patrols I had previous logged. So far I have almost finished with U-28's war patrols. Once I get them all ready I will proceed with your assignment.


I think I included all those who expressed interest in helping, but let me know if I have excluded anybody. In the future, we will assign U-boat ranges, rather than single patrols.

Please post any suggestions or difficulties so we can create the most efficient process possible. This is exciting stuff guys! It will be a long process, but this could take SH5 to another level of dynamism, immersion, and fun.

I think that for the first patrols logged, it would be useful if everyone posted a screenshot of the map with the followed route with significant coordinates marked and/or a screenie of the settings set in the generator. This way, spotting possible mistakes would be easier, and we would learn from each other :yep:

P.S: a good website containing concise descriptions of each war patrol is u-historia.com. Unfortunately it is Spanish written. Nonetheless, taking the time to drag its texts in google translate or in babelfish might be worth the time, as its information can be a valid support. :up:


EDIT: @gap - One suggestion I forgot to mention was perhaps allowing us to tag whether a ship was sunk by gunfire. uboat.net has a list of every merchant vessel sunk, so it is generally quite easy to determine whether it was a torpedo attack or deck gun attack. This could be very important for determining torpedo loadout for certain patrols. For example, on U-33's second patrol, she sank three small fishing vessels (all about 300 GRT) with her deck gun. I'm concerned that if I record three ships as sunk or damaged on this day, I will unnecessarily deprive Kplt. von Dresky of many of his eels.

At the beginning I had started logging the estimated number of torpedoes used during each attack, but then I realized that this method was highly time-consuming, and that it might have been quite aleatory. At the end I opted for recording the number of attacks, leaving TDW to decide randomly the number of torpedoes used every time (with a remote probability that no torpedoes were used). I agree that by following this last method, we risk to overestimate the number of torpedo attacks over gunfire attacks (the latter being very common during the first months of the conflict), nonetheless I see a couple of advantages in it:

- more randomization and lesser probability of getting support during the early stages of the war, when group strategies were quite uncommon anyway;

- the possible torpedo usage overestimation is counterbalanced by a physiological degree of underestimation coming from the common evenience of torpedo failures, which we are not taking in account, and from failed torpedo attacks not listed in our sources.

Moreover, let's not forget that at the time being, the only use we can do of the "left torpedoes" information is for determining whether a given boat will be dispatched or not. I doubt that TDW can limit the number of torpedoes left on each supporting boat, based on our information.

[gap]

Love the idea.

I have only one problem: whenever I go to the link in post 49, I get the same spreadsheet, without updates or changes.

Targor, you cannot work on that spreadsheet online. You need to download it. The one document that you can update online is the spreadsheet uploaded by keysersoze (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8/edit?docId=0AomEdsSim-PhdDBYOWNrMTNYMFJ1bVNsa1M4VjYtTXc), used for storing the results obtained from the previous one :yep:

[Dogfish40]

Having trouble downloading the spreadsheet from post #49. When I hit the download icon it takes me to a "Page cannot be found" screen. It prompts me to download it though, as it says it is too big to view. I'll keep trying.
Am I screwing up here?:06:

[gap]

Having trouble downloading the spreadsheet from post #49. When I hit the download icon it takes me to a "Page cannot be found" screen. It prompts me to download it though, as it says it is too big to view. I'll keep trying.
Am I screwing up here?:06:

That link works for me. Anyway I have reuploaded the spreadsheet here (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7ugrgtmkpv49dcm) :up:

[keysersoze]

Love the idea.

I have only one problem: whenever I go to the link in post 49, I get the same spreadsheet, without updates or changes.

Targor, you cannot work on that spreadsheet online. You need to download it. The one document that you can update online is the spreadsheet uploaded by keysersoze (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8/edit?docId=0AomEdsSim-PhdDBYOWNrMTNYMFJ1bVNsa1M4VjYtTXc), used for storing the results obtained from the previous one :yep:

I was confused about this yesterday as well. I thought we were recording data in the online spreadsheet that would then be transferred into gap's more professional generator. It's pretty much the opposite of that. Basically, we do the following:

1. Download gap's U-boat coordinates generator.
2. Copy and paste information into the generator
a. Enter general information in the lower lefthand corner, including commander's name and rank, date patrol started, duration of patrol in days, and whether the U-boat carried any mines. Gap's program will automatically use this information to create a template for you to work with
b. Copy and paste U-boat's lat/long for each day of the patrol in the corresponding cell of the generator
c. Select one of the drop-down options from the "current activity" tab. Most are self explanatory, but you can refer to gap's description of them earlier in the tread
d. After you have entered positions and current activity for every day, simply highlight the yellow (output) cells
3. Paste the output from gap's generator into the google docs spreadsheet
a. Find the appropriate month/year tab in the lower lefthand corner of the spreadsheet
b. Find the correct type for your U-boat (VIIA, B, etc.)
c. If your U-boat is not yet listed for that month, add three rows, each labeled with your U-boat's number (these correspond to the output data you have already copied)
d. Highlight the first day of your U-boat's patrol
e. Paste the output data into that cell by pressing ctrl + v

It sounds more difficult/tedious than it actually is. Once you begin playing around with the generator and the spreadsheet, it all becomes fairly self-evident. There are additional functions to interpolate missing data in case uboat.net is missing the coordinates for that date. One final consideration: if your U-boat's patrol spans multiple months, you will need to copy and paste information separately for each month, since the master spreadsheet is divided by month.

[Sartoris]

That link works for me. Anyway I have reuploaded the spreadsheet here (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7ugrgtmkpv49dcm) :up:

It keeps loading, and then offering the "retry" option. :hmmm:

EDIT: Oh, wait, I had to download it. Got it!

[keysersoze]

Having trouble downloading the spreadsheet from post #49. When I hit the download icon it takes me to a "Page cannot be found" screen. It prompts me to download it though, as it says it is too big to view. I'll keep trying.
Am I screwing up here?:06:

It keeps loading, and then offering the "retry" option. :hmmm:

EDIT: Oh, wait, I had to download it. Got it!

Thanks again for your willingness to help Dogfish and Sartoris :salute:

Are either of you having trouble with the either the spreadsheet or the generator?

[keysersoze]

I think that for the first patrols logged, it would be useful if everyone posted a screenshot of the map with the followed route with significant coordinates marked and/or a screenie of the settings set in the generator. This way, spotting possible mistakes would be easier, and we would learn from each other :yep:


Excellent idea :up:

Posting screenshots would work well. I have also reorganized our google drive account so that everything relating to our project is contained within the "U-boat Coordinates Project" folder. There is another copy of your coordinates generator there so people can find it without hunting through other links.

I also created a folder called "Completed Patrols," where I have uploaded the three patrols I've done so far. The file labeled "U-33,1," for example, means "U-33, 1st patrol." I don't know whether this is a tenable method in the long term, but if we upload our completed patrols there, we can all access each other's work and make necessary corrections (including adding in crew experience levels) without having to re-do everything. What do you think?


P.S: a good website containing concise descriptions of each war patrol is u-historia.com. Unfortunately it is Spanish written. Nonetheless, taking the time to drag its texts in google translate or in babelfish might be worth the time, as its information can be a valid support. :up:


Yep, u-historia.com is a great website and even my very rusty Spanish is sufficient to use it. Anybody with a bit of Spanish might want to check it out. I've also been using Wynn's two-volume, titled U-boat operations of the Second World War, which contains written descriptions for every patrol. Since I'm tired to going to the library every time I want to reference it, I recently purchased copies. There's no reason for anyone to do the same, but let me know if you run into inconsistent information and I will see if Wynn has anything to say about it.



At the beginning I had started logging the estimated number of torpedoes used during each attack...

Your arguments are persuasive like always :yeah:

[gap]

I was confused about this yesterday as well. I thought we were recording data in the online spreadsheet that would then be transferred into gap's more professional generator. It's pretty much the opposite of that. Basically, we do the following:

...

It sounds more difficult/tedious than it actually is. Once you begin playing around with the generator and the spreadsheet, it all becomes fairly self-evident. There are additional functions to interpolate missing data in case uboat.net is missing the coordinates for that date. One final consideration: if your U-boat's patrol spans multiple months, you will need to copy and paste information separately for each month, since the master spreadsheet is divided by month.

:up:


Posting screenshots would work well. I have also reorganized our google drive account so that everything relating to our project is contained within the "U-boat Coordinates Project" folder. There is another copy of your coordinates generator there so people can find it without hunting through other links.

I also created a folder called "Completed Patrols," where I have uploaded the three patrols I've done so far. The file labeled "U-33,1," for example, means "U-33, 1st patrol." I don't know whether this is a tenable method in the long term, but if we upload our completed patrols there, we can all access each other's work and make necessary corrections (including adding in crew experience levels) without having to re-do everything. What do you think?

Good idea! How can we upload our files into that folder?


Yep, u-historia.com is a great website and even my very rusty Spanish is sufficient to use it. Anybody with a bit of Spanish might want to check it out.

I have been testing google translate on an random u-historia page (http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/historia/huboots/ubxub.htm), and I must say that the resulting output (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.u-historia.com%2Fuhistoria%2Fhistoria%2Fhuboots%2Fub xub.htm&act=url) in English language was more than acceptable:


I've also been using Wynn's two-volume, titled U-boat operations of the Second World War, which contains written descriptions for every patrol. Since I'm tired to going to the library every time I want to reference it, I recently purchased copies. There's no reason for anyone to do the same, but let me know if you run into inconsistent information and I will see if Wynn has anything to say about it.

:yeah:

[volodya61]

Sorry guys :oops:
I can't do anything right now.. maybe a little bit later.. some RL troubles :nope:..

[gap]

Sorry guys :oops:
I can't do anything right now.. maybe a little bit later.. some RL troubles :nope:..

Sorry Volodya, I hope you will to sort out your troubles soon :)

[keysersoze]

Sorry guys :oops:
I can't do anything right now.. maybe a little bit later.. some RL troubles :nope:..

No problem volodya... real life has to come first. I hope you get everything sorted out :sunny:

[keysersoze]

Good idea! How can we upload our files into that folder?


@gap I've made some changes the setting of the "Completed Patrols" folder. Can you upload anything now?

I'm not certain about this yet, but I think that you will need to have gmail account to be able to upload into the "Completed Patrols" folder. Do most people have a one? I would like to avoid requiring volunteers to create a new account; we want to have the fewest obstacles possible so we can attract the maximum number of collaborators :hmmm:

[Targor Avelany]

Sorry guys :oops:
I can't do anything right now.. maybe a little bit later.. some RL troubles :nope:..

Hang in there, bud! Hopefully everything will work out for ya.

[Sartoris]

Thanks again for your willingness to help Dogfish and Sartoris :salute:

Are either of you having trouble with the either the spreadsheet or the generator?

I know this is quite embarrassing, but I don't have the Excel program, so is it necessary for me to, ahem, "acquire" it, or is there some free way to open the document and modify it?

[Dogfish40]

It keeps loading, and then offering the "retry" option. :hmmm:

EDIT: Oh, wait, I had to download it. Got it!

Yes, this is what mine was doing. I got it though, from the original post. In excel, gute.
Now, I'm just going to keep up with everyone and digest this stuff. I wish I could be of more assistance right now but I'm playing catch up. This all looks great. :up:
The game is going into another life entirely and "great" is an understatement.
D40

[Sartoris]

Could you please update the first post of this thread with links to the spreadsheet and the generator?

[keysersoze]

I know this is quite embarrassing, but I don't have the Excel program, so is it necessary for me to, ahem, "acquire" it, or is there some free way to open the document and modify it?


Do you have a mac? I have a mac laptop and was able to open the spreadsheet in Numbers, but I don't think the formulas transferred into Numbers properly. I haven't looked into it beyond that :hmmm:


Yes, this is what mine was doing. I got it though, from the original post. In excel, gute.
Now, I'm just going to keep up with everyone and digest this stuff. I wish I could be of more assistance right now but I'm playing catch up. This all looks great. :up:
The game is going into another life entirely and "great" is an understatement.
D40




Not a problem, take your time and make sure you are comfortable with everything. At this stage, go slowly and go for accuracy. Once you have the procedure down, it'll be a breeze.


Could you please update the first post of this thread with links to the spreadsheet and the generator?

Yep, just about to do that. Before I do, does anybody know how to imbed a link in text so I don't have to paste the long URL? I'm sure it's right in front of my face...


@gap, could you please have a look at the patrols 2 and 3 for U-33 in the Completed Patrols folder? In patrol 2, we are missing coordinates for 22 Nov. Interpolating them would create a path through land, so I left it blank. Is this okay? Also, on 24 Nov., U-33 successfully attacked a British prize ship while she was on her way back to Wilhelmshaven. Do you want me to set current activity as "Attacking contact" or "Bound to base"? If I set it to "Attacking contact," it looks like there will be two "Ending patrol" messages.

For patrol 3, in which U-33 was sunk, we are missing all the positions except for the date of departure and date sunk. Should I leave it the way it is, with all other days blank?

[Sartoris]

How can we tell if the submarine carried any mines? I can't find that info for my U-34 on uboat.net.

[Targor Avelany]

you can try doing it in OpenOffice, which is a completely free software.

[Sartoris]

Also, how do we find the long and lat for patrol days on uboat.net?

EDIT: Sorry, got it myself.

EDIT2: Should we remove the comma from the lat/long found on uboat.net? Example: 48.45N, 12.15W

[keysersoze]

How can we tell if the submarine carried any mines? I can't find that info for my U-34 on uboat.net.

The easiest way is to click on the patrol, scroll to the bottom of the page, and see whether there is anything listed under the title "Minelaying operations during this patrol." If there is, uboat.net will give you the number and type of mines and the date they were laid. If there is nothing about minelaying, you can put a 0 in the "mines carried" cell in the generator. For reference check out these two patrols:

U-34, 3rd patrol
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_242.html
You can see U-34 carried 8 TMC mines and laid them on 19 January.

U-34, 2nd Patrol
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_241.html
In contrast, there's nothing about minelaying here. However, it's very important to take note of anything under the "General events during this patrol" heading, as this will detemine what you set for the "current activity" tabs. For example, on 30 Oct., U-34 had a serious engine problem and had to abandon the patrol. You would use the "Bound to base for repairs" option here, so the game knows that U-34 is in no shape to join a wolfpack.

[keysersoze]

The first post has been updated with links for the spreadsheet, step-by-step instructions, and relevant examples. Don't be intimidated by the length: I want to explicitly lay out every step to make it as easy as possible for everyone. With a few minutes of work, you could probably figure out about 90% of what is written there.

Please let me know how I can improve the instructions with additional explanations/examples or by simplifying the language.

[Sartoris]

The easiest way is to click on the patrol, scroll to the bottom of the page, and see whether there is anything listed under the title "Minelaying operations during this patrol." If there is, uboat.net will give you the number and type of mines and the date they were laid. If there is nothing about minelaying, you can put a 0 in the "mines carried" cell in the generator. For reference check out these two patrols:

U-34, 3rd patrol
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_242.html
You can see U-34 carried 8 TMC mines and laid them on 19 January.

U-34, 2nd Patrol
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_241.html
In contrast, there's nothing about minelaying here. However, it's very important to take note of anything under the "General events during this patrol" heading, as this will detemine what you set for the "current activity" tabs. For example, on 30 Oct., U-34 had a serious engine problem and had to abandon the patrol. You would use the "Bound to base for repairs" option here, so the game knows that U-34 is in no shape to join a wolfpack.

Thanks for the reply. Could you also look into my previous question: Should we remove the comma from the lat/long found on uboat.net? Example: 48.45N, 12.15W

[keysersoze]

Thanks for the reply. Could you also look into my previous question: Should we remove the comma from the lat/long found on uboat.net? Example: 48.45N, 12.15W

Yes, it's critical to remove the comma. Thanks for reminding me about this; I will add it to the first post :salute:

A good way to check to see if you've forgotten to remove any commas is to quickly glance over the output (yellow) cells. If any of them are blank, there is a good chance you forgot to take out the comma for that day's lat/long.

[Sartoris]

Thanks for the answer. I have one more question: I'm not sure which long/lat to put in for the Wilhelmshaven port on the first and last day.

[keysersoze]

Thanks for the answer. I have one more question: I'm not sure which long/lat to put in for the Wilhelmshaven port on the first and last day.

Another great question. I have been using 53.31N 08.09E for Wilhelmshaven. I had one patrol end in Lorient, and I just googled "Lorient latitude longitude" and google displayed it immediately. I think this should be precise enough for our purposes.

[Trevally.]

does anybody know how to imbed a link in text so I don't have to paste the long URL?

When you are posting - left click and drag your mouse over the text and it will highlight. You can then use the insert link button to add your link to the highlighted text.

Post One (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2031620&postcount=1)

:up:

[keysersoze]

When you are posting - left click and drag your mouse over the text and it will highlight. You can then use the insert link button to add your link to the highlighted text.

Post One (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2031620&postcount=1)

:up:

Thanks Trevally. I was getting tired of posting the full URL every time.

:salute:

[Trevally.]

Thanks Trevally. I was getting tired of posting the full URL every time.

:salute:

:sunny:

@Gap

If you use a google toolbar on your browser - you can set it to auto translate sites as you browse. So no need to copy and paste into google translate

[Sartoris]

I've just uploaded the excel document for U-34, first patrol. I'd like to ask you to look it over before I copy the information into the u-boat positions document. The map looks a bit weird to me, there are two straight lines going from the patrol area to the uboat's harbor. Did I make a mistake somewhere?

[keysersoze]

I've just uploaded the excel document for U-34, first patrol. I'd like to ask you to look it over before I copy the information into the u-boat positions document. The map looks a bit weird to me, there are two straight lines going from the patrol area to the uboat's harbor. Did I make a mistake somewhere?


Nice work Sartoris :up:

Everything looks great. The two lines bisecting England were probably caused by a minor error in entering the coordinates. On August 30, you have U-34's coordinates as 53.31N 08.09E, which is Wilhelmshaven, but uboat.net has her at 48.45N 13.45W for that day. I'm sure it was a simple copy/paste error. Other than that, it looks perfect to me.

It's good that you noticed something was amiss. A good way to check our work is to 1) scan through the output cells to see if any of them are blank and 2) check the map for any bizarre coordinates.

[gap]

@gap I've made some changes the setting of the "Completed Patrols" folder. Can you upload anything now?

I have not attempted it yet, but now I have an upload icon on the top left corner :up:


@gap, could you please have a look at the patrols 2 and 3 for U-33 in the Completed Patrols folder? In patrol 2, we are missing coordinates for 22 Nov. Interpolating them would create a path through land, so I left it blank. Is this okay?

you can:

- interpolate the missing coordinate using the automatic interpolator

- copy the generated coordinate and paste it in the corresponding lat/long cell as if it was a normal input

- adjust the new input enough to make route not to cross land. In this case you should move the coordinate northward and/or westward :03:


Also, on 24 Nov., U-33 successfully attacked a British prize ship while she was on her way back to Wilhelmshaven. Do you want me to set current activity as "Attacking contact" or "Bound to base"? If I set it to "Attacking contact," it looks like there will be two "Ending patrol" messages.

I think you can leave it as "Attacking contact". We will make the "ending patrol" message as generic as possible, so to encompass cases like this, when some notable event interrupts the return passage. I think that something like "proceeding to base" should make the trick :03:

Talking about the same patrol log, I have a couple of remarks:

- the aforementioned attack is recorded in the wrong date/location. You should move it to Nov 23, when U-33 was sailing NW of Orkneys :yep:

- I have noticed that you have recorded the whole outboud passage until when mines are layed, as "sailing to/from ops area". While this is surely acceptable, I think that mine laying patrols involved flexible orders. When processing other patrols, I have noticed that U-boats could attack enemy contacts even before deploying their mine load, if they got this chance. Subsequently, I have recorded the first part of their patrols as "sailing to patrol area"/"normal patrol" (see below for a quicker use of the latter tag), and I have limited the "sailing to/from ops area" tag to when the boat was definitely heading to the area designed for minelaying operations.


For patrol 3, in which U-33 was sunk, we are missing all the positions except for the date of departure and date sunk. Should I leave it the way it is, with all other days blank?

In no case blank coordinates are an acceptable output; ubootwaffe.net had complete u-boat position logs up to spring '40. Unfortunately this website is off now, and we are left with only two options: either ignore this patrol, or invent the missing coordinates on the base of similar patrols :arrgh!:

The first post has been updated with links for the spreadsheet, step-by-step instructions, and relevant examples. Don't be intimidated by the length: I want to explicitly lay out every step to make it as easy as possible for everyone. With a few minutes of work, you could probably figure out about 90% of what is written there.

Please let me know how I can improve the instructions with additional explanations/examples or by simplifying the language.

Great work! :up:

Thanks for the reply. Could you also look into my previous question: Should we remove the comma from the lat/long found on uboat.net? Example: 48.45N, 12.15W

Good remark, I will upload a new version of the calculator preadsheet where you don't need to remove the comma. I want to do the data input process as fast and easy as possible :up:

Thanks for the answer. I have one more question: I'm not sure which long/lat to put in for the Wilhelmshaven port on the first and last day.

Another great question. I have been using 53.31N 08.09E for Wilhelmshaven. I had one patrol end in Lorient, and I just googled "Lorient latitude longitude" and google displayed it immediately. I think this should be precise enough for our purposes.

Maybe we can post a list of common U-boat bases with their lat/long coordinates. Using exactly the same set of coordinates for each location, would allow TDW to use this information for some of the planned radio reports, without need to add any extra information in our logs :hmmm:

:sunny:

@Gap

If you use a google toolbar on your browser - you can set it to auto translate sites as you browse. So no need to copy and paste into google translate

Thank for your suggestion Trev :salute:
I am browsing internet with Google Chrome, which includes the auto translate function, but I thought I would make my suggestion as generic as possible :03:

I've just uploaded the excel document for U-34, first patrol. I'd like to ask you to look it over before I copy the information into the u-boat positions document. The map looks a bit weird to me, there are two straight lines going from the patrol area to the uboat's harbor. Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Very well done Sartoris. :yep:

the error is in the 30 Aug coordinate; you should set it to '48.45N 13.45W' instead of '53.31N 08.09E'. I am glad I have implemented the course plotted on map feature, because it makes it easy to spot and to correct always possible mistakes :know:

A few more remarks:

- you don't need to select anything in the 'current activity' row for normal patrol coordinates: blank cells are automatically recognized as 'normal patrol' anyway. This will make you to spare the time to tag each cell :03:

- similarly, when an attack is recorded in the 'number of ships sunk/damaged' row, you don't need to set its corresponding 'current activity' cell to 'attacking contact': the spreadsheet will automatically recognize attacks, as long as a numerical input equal or bigger than 0 is set. If the setting is 0, a failed attack flag will be generated, otherwise, the output used for radio reporting will be 'successful attack'.

- I have noticed that you have recorded the Estonian Ship "Hanonia", captured on 24 Sep 1939, as a 'sunk/damaged ship'. Since the seizing of ships didn't obviously involve the use of any torpedo, I wouldn't record them at all. Nonetheless, I can create a 'ship catured' input for radio reporting purposes, if you think it is worth it :salute:

P.S: another special tag I am thinking to add is "boat being refitted" :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

you can:

- interpolate the missing coordinate using the automatic interpolator

- copy the generated coordinate and paste it in the corresponding lat/long cell as if it was a normal input

- adjust the new input enough to make route not to cross land. In this case you should move the coordinate northward and/or westward :03:


Okay, I will adjust the coordinates.


- the aforementioned attack is recorded in the wrong date/location. You should move it to Nov 23, when U-33 was sailing NW of Orkneys :yep:


I had chosen the Nov. 24 date based on Wynn (p. 24) and u-historia (http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/historia/inhistoria.htm). Both say the Borkum was sunk on the 24th. However, I see that uboat.net has additional information for the ship, such as the time and coordinates of the sinking :hmmm: Since Wynn and and u-historia do not have this detail, I will probably trust uboat.net.


- I have noticed that you have recorded the whole outboud passage until when mines are layed, as "sailing to/from ops area". While this is surely acceptable, I think that mine laying patrols involved flexible orders. When processing other patrols, I have noticed that U-boats could attack enemy contacts even before deploying their mine load, if they got this chance. Subsequently, I have recorded the first part of their patrols as "sailing to patrol area"/"normal patrol" (see below for a quicker use of the latter tag), and I have limited the "sailing to/from ops area" tag to when the boat was definitely heading to the area designed for minelaying operations.


Yes, you're right. I'll make the necessary changes.


In no case blank coordinates are an acceptable output; ubootwaffe.net had complete u-boat position logs up to spring '40. Unfortunately this website is off now, and we are left with only two options: either ignore this patrol, or invent the missing coordinates on the base of similar patrols :arrgh!:


I don't want to ignore the patrol, so I will fabricate some coordinates based upon similar outbound voyages. I will also adjust my instructions in the first post to indicate that blank coordinates are never acceptable.


Good remark, I will upload a new version of the calculator preadsheet where you don't need to remove the comma. I want to do the data input process as fast and easy as possible :up:


Excellent idea :up:


Maybe we can post a list of common U-boat bases with their lat/long coordinates. Using exactly the same set of coordinates for each location, would allow TDW to use this information for some of the planned radio reports, without need to add any extra information in our logs :hmmm:


I had a similar thought. I will start working on it and add a list to the first post. Speaking of the instructions on the first post, have I made any mistakes?


P.S: another special tag I am thinking to add is "boat being refitted" :hmm2:

Wouldn't a refit happen at port anyway?

[gap]

I had chosen the Nov. 24 date based on Wynn (p. 24) and u-historia (http://www.u-historia.com/uhistoria/historia/inhistoria.htm). Both say the Borkum was sunk on the 24th. However, I see that uboat.net has additional information for the ship, such as the time and coordinates of the sinking :hmmm: Since Wynn and and u-historia do not have this detail, I will probably trust uboat.net.

I think the discussed attack took place on the night between 23 and 24 of November, thus the ambiguity in our sources. Nonetheless, the location described by u-historia, al Noroeste de las Orkneys -NW of Orkneys- is more compatible with the location given by u-boat.net for Nov 23. :yep:


I don't want to ignore the patrol, so I will fabricate some coordinates based upon similar outbound voyages. I will also adjust my instructions in the first post to indicate that blank coordinates are never acceptable.

Good choice. Since this one was a short patrol, guestimating a likely route shouldn't be a difficult task!


I had a similar thought. I will start working on it and add a list to the first post.

You might want to look at the bases listed in this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2026790&postcount=168). These, plus Helgoland, should cover most of the U-boat patrols. Whenever someone meets a new base, he can make a post here, reporting the base and the coordinate used for it, so that you can update the list in the first post.


Speaking of the instructions on the first post, have I made any mistakes?

Not really :up:

Wouldn't a refit happen at port anyway?

I was thinking of the quick refits taking place at sea, or from the German tankers interned in Spanish ports. Moreover, I wonder if we shouldn't reset the attacks counter after these refits, meaning that the U-boat would have been refitted with fresh torpedoes :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

Okay, I'll adjust it to the 23rd :up:


You might want to look at the bases listed in this post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2026790&postcount=168). These, plus Helgoland, should cover most of the U-boat patrols. Whenever someone meets a new base, he can make a post here, reporting the base and the coordinate used for it, so that you can update the list in the first post.


Thanks for the link. I'll get lat/long for all these ports.


I was thinking of the quick refits taking place at sea, or from the German tankers interned in Spanish ports. Moreover, I wonder if we shouldn't reset the attacks counter after these refits, meaning that the U-boat would have been refitted with fresh torpedoes :hmm2:

In that case, a "refitting" tag is probably a good idea. Would it be possible to halve the attack counter instead of resetting it completely? Generally, Type XIVs and even interned tankers would not have had enough torpedoes to fully outfit a U-boat. I'm not even sure if a VIIF would have fully replenished a boat's torpedoes, owing to the extreme difficulty and the long time required to replenish at sea, to say nothing of the danger of Allied air attack.

[Targor Avelany]

U-34's 4th patrol has been added. Do you want me to add the completed u-boat coordinates spreadsheet anywhere?

[keysersoze]

U-34's 4th patrol has been added. Do you want me to add the completed u-boat coordinates spreadsheet anywhere?

Thanks targor :up:

As long as you've uploaded the completed copy of your generator to the Completed Patrols folder and have copied the output data to the online spreadsheet, there's no need to do anything else with the generator.

@ gap: Should we start setting U-boat veterancy levels? If we're going to use this variable, we should start as soon as possible to avoid having to re-do a lot of patrols. I would propose creating standards for determining skill level. Perhaps we could take into account tonnage sunk, whether the commander was a Knight's Cross winner, etc.

[Sartoris]

Very well done Sartoris. :yep:

the error is in the 30 Aug coordinate; you should set it to '48.45N 13.45W' instead of '53.31N 08.09E'. I am glad I have implemented the course plotted on map feature, because it makes it easy to spot and to correct always possible mistakes :know:

A few more remarks:

- you don't need to select anything in the 'current activity' row for normal patrol coordinates: blank cells are automatically recognized as 'normal patrol' anyway. This will make you to spare the time to tag each cell :03:

- similarly, when an attack is recorded in the 'number of ships sunk/damaged' row, you don't need to set its corresponding 'current activity' cell to 'attacking contact': the spreadsheet will automatically recognize attacks, as long as a numerical input equal or bigger than 0 is set. If the setting is 0, a failed attack flag will be generated, otherwise, the output used for radio reporting will be 'successful attack'.

- I have noticed that you have recorded the Estonian Ship "Hanonia", captured on 24 Sep 1939, as a 'sunk/damaged ship'. Since the seizing of ships didn't obviously involve the use of any torpedo, I wouldn't record them at all. Nonetheless, I can create a 'ship catured' input for radio reporting purposes, if you think it is worth it :salute:

P.S: another special tag I am thinking to add is "boat being refitted" :hmm2:

Thanks for the suggestions!

I think it might be nice to have the option "ship captured", but perhaps not necessary for the purposes of this project.:)

[Sartoris]

I've added the corrected data for U-34 to the online document, but the entries for August look a bit wonky to me. I'd be grateful if you could check for any mistakes. Sorry about all the double checking, but I just want to be sure I get the hang of this process.:)

[keysersoze]

Sorry for the radio silence...I've been swamped the past couple days.

I've added the corrected data for U-34 to the online document, but the entries for August look a bit wonky to me. I'd be grateful if you could check for any mistakes. Sorry about all the double checking, but I just want to be sure I get the hang of this process.:)

No need to apologize for wanting a second set of eyes to check your work--that's the beauty of doing this online. It looks like you accidentally pasted the output for the month of August in the cell that begins at August 1st, instead of August 19th, when U-34 historically left Wilhelmshaven. That's why there is a large gap at the end of the month. Be sure to match up the date of departure from uboat.net with the dates in the online spreadsheet. It will be relatively rare for patrols to begin on the first day of the month, so you will probably have to skip a certain amount of time for that first month.

Also, if you stilll have the the filled-out generator form for this first patrol, could you please upload it to the Completed Patrols folder? That way, we can double check it more thoroughly.

Thanks again for your help! :salute:

[Sartoris]

Sorry for the radio silence...I've been swamped the past couple days.



No need to apologize for wanting a second set of eyes to check your work--that's the beauty of doing this online. It looks like you accidentally pasted the output for the month of August in the cell that begins at August 1st, instead of August 19th, when U-34 historically left Wilhelmshaven. That's why there is a large gap at the end of the month. Be sure to match up the date of departure from uboat.net with the dates in the online spreadsheet. It will be relatively rare for patrols to begin on the first day of the month, so you will probably have to skip a certain amount of time for that first month.

Also, if you stilll have the the filled-out generator form for this first patrol, could you please upload it to the Completed Patrols folder? That way, we can double check it more thoroughly.

Thanks again for your help! :salute:

Thanks, I think I've fixed it now. I've also uploaded the document.:salute:

[LemonA]

...

1. Access our google drive folder and download gap's generatora. Link (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4mEdsSim-PhYURsZmNGaHN1Rm8&usp=sharing)
.....
Play around with it for ten minutes, and I guarantee that most of your questions will be answered .
Where is the "gap`s generator" exactly? Link shows me preview low level gif-pictures of excel pages etc. but not a downloadable program.
What do you mean with "Access our google drive folder"? Do we have to create a google-account to get this data?

[Sartoris]

[/INDENT]Where is the "gap`s generator" exactly? Link shows me preview low level gif-pictures of excel pages etc. but not a downloadable program.
What do you mean with "Access our google drive folder"? Do we have to create a google-account to get this data?

I think you have to click the "Open in drive" option in the top right corner, and then go from there. It's a little fiddly but gets the job done.

[LemonA]

That is what i get when i click the link...
http://img.xrmb2.net/images/836189.jpeg

I have no google account because i dont give away my (mobile) phone number + date of birth for this google crap.

[Targor Avelany]

[/INDENT]Where is the "gap`s generator" exactly? Link shows me preview low level gif-pictures of excel pages etc. but not a downloadable program.
What do you mean with "Access our google drive folder"? Do we have to create a google-account to get this data?

If you look at the bottom of your browser when you click on that "low level gif-pictures..." as you call them, you will see an option to download.

[keysersoze]

That is what i get when i click the link...
http://img.xrmb2.net/images/836189.jpeg

I have no google account because i dont give away my (mobile) phone number + date of birth for this google crap.

You shouldn't need a google account to download the files. Click on the U-boat positions project folder and then on the file called "U-boat Coordinates v1." There should be an option to download it in the lower righthand corner.

The only thing you would need a google account for would be to upload completed patrol data at the very end of the process. I'm trying to figure out a work-around for this because I don't want to require people to create an account if they don't have one/don't want one.

[keysersoze]

Thanks, I think I've fixed it now. I've also uploaded the document.:salute:

Thanks Sartoris :up:

Just going into class now but I'll have a look in a few hours.

[Targor Avelany]

You shouldn't need a google account to download the files. Click on the U-boat positions project folder and then on the file called "U-boat Coordinates v1." There should be an option to download it in the lower righthand corner.

The only thing you would need a google account for would be to upload completed patrol data at the very end of the process. I'm trying to figure out a work-around for this because I don't want to require people to create an account if they don't have one/don't want one.

I believe you can add him to editors of the file with a different e-mail account or send him a link that will allow him to edit a file.

Not sure 100% though, as my work blocks actual gmail e-mail... :shifty:

[keysersoze]

I believe you can add him to editors of the file with a different e-mail account or send him a link that will allow him to edit a file.

Not sure 100% though, as my work blocks actual gmail e-mail... :shifty:

I think I've set the privacy level so that anyone with the link can edit it. They will simply show up as "anonymous." If it's not working, or if we want more security, I can invite people individually.

[keysersoze]

@Sartoris - I did a spot-check of the patrol you uploaded yesterday. Looks good to me :up:

@LemonA - Have you been able to successfully download the generator? Do you have any interest in helping out with the project?

@V13dweller - I believe you indicated you would be interested in helping. Are you still able/willing?

[Targor Avelany]

I'll start working on U-36 patrols.

[keysersoze]

I'll start working on U-36 patrols.

You might want to hold off for a few more days. I just received a PM from gap, who is traveling abroad. He said that he has already started working on a new version of the generator and will resume work on Sunday or Monday when he returns home. I've been hesitant to start a new thread and introduce the project for real until we have all the kinks worked out, but hopefully we can do this soon.

In the meantime, gap asked that we compile a list of all our suggestions for improving the generator. Post whatever you can think of and I will add them to the bottom of this post so that gap can easily reference them. I believe the first was suggested by Sartoris some time ago.




Suggestions for generator v2

Allow generator to accept the comma between lat/long

[gap]

Suggestions for generator v2

Allow generator to accept the comma between lat/long


This is already implemented :up:

[keysersoze]

This is already implemented :up:

:up:

I'm having a hard time thinking of additional improvements. The generator is already quite polished. If you are going to add "refitting at sea," perhaps there could also be a "sailing to rendezvous" mission to denote when a boat was too low on fuel to participate in wolfpack operations. It might also be useful for when a damaged boat met another U-boat to transfer parts at sea.

[gap]

:up:

I'm having a hard time thinking of additional improvements. The generator is already quite polished. If you are going to add "refitting at sea," perhaps there could also be a "sailing to rendezvous" mission to denote when a boat was too low on fuel to participate in wolfpack operations. It might also be useful for when a damaged boat met another U-boat to transfer parts at sea.

Okay, I will work on the "refitting at sea"/"sailing to rendezvous" tags right away.
I have some doubts on their implementation though:


What should I do with the attacked ships counter, after each attack? Should I leave it unchanged or rather reset it to 0, meaning that the U-boat has been fully refitted of fresh torpedoes?


Currently, the one numbers indirectly related to fuel available onboard, are the two figures 'days spent at sea so far' and 'total patrol lenght in days', which are automatically calculated by the generator and added to the logs. I could easily replace them with two other figures: 'km travelled so far' and 'maximum range in km'. The first one could be reset to 0 (or decreased by a calculated amount) after each refit; the latter would be a fixed number, and it would depend on the U-boat type selected in general patrol information. I could also retain both the 'days spent at sea' and 'km travelled so far' information. In any case we would be forced to redo the patrols logged so far...

What do you think? :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

What should I do with the attacked ships counter, after each attack? Should I leave it unchanged or rather reset it to 0, meaning that the U-boat has been fully refitted of fresh torpedoes?


Resetting the attack counter to 0 would probably be too generous. Type XIV boats usually only supplied four torpedoes during a refitting, and then only in ideal conditions. The Type VIIF could have supplied more torpedoes, but these were actually rarely used in resupply operations since sitting on the surface for hours at a time was practically suicide by 1943.

How about decreasing the attack counter by about 25%?


Currently, the one numbers indirectly related to fuel available onboard, are the two figures 'days spent at sea so far' and 'total patrol lenght in days', which are automatically calculated by the generator and added to the logs. I could easily replace them with two other figures: 'km travelled so far' and 'maximum range in km'. The first one could be reset to 0 (or decreased by a calculated amount) after each refit; the latter would be a fixed number, and it would depend on the U-boat type selected in general patrol information. I could also retain both the 'days spent at sea' and 'km travelled so far' information. In any case we would be forced to redo the patrols logged so far...

What do you think? :hmm2:

Yes, I think "km traveled so far" would be the best measure of fuel levels. However, we should increase the range of each U-boat type to simulate the use of diesel/electric motors simultaneously on the surface, a technique which could substantially increase cruising range. I would suggest reducing "km traveled so far" by about 50% after a resupply. I don't believe U-boats generally received a full fuel supply while refitting at sea. It was usually only enough to make it back to France. Interned tankers like the one at Vigo would probably have supplied much for fuel, but I think 50% might be a useful compromise.

What do you think?

[gap]

Resetting the attack counter to 0 would probably be too generous. Type XIV boats usually only supplied four torpedoes during a refitting, and then only in ideal conditions. The Type VIIF could have supplied more torpedoes, but these were actually rarely used in resupply operations since sitting on the surface for hours at a time was practically suicide by 1943.

How about decreasing the attack counter by about 25%?

currently, logs generated by my spreadsheet contain two numbers which are related to torpedoes available onboard at any given date; they are: 'ships attacked so far' and 'torpedo loadout at the beginning of the patrol'. Based on the information you have provided, I think that we should increase the latter by a fixed amount (4 [?]) each time the given boat was refitted. Do you agree?


Yes, I think "km traveled so far" would be the best measure of fuel levels. However, we should increase the range of each U-boat type to simulate the use of diesel/electric motors simultaneously on the surface, a technique which could substantially increase cruising range. I would suggest reducing "km traveled so far" by about 50% after a resupply. I don't believe U-boats generally received a full fuel supply while refitting at sea. It was usually only enough to make it back to France. Interned tankers like the one at Vigo would probably have supplied much for fuel, but I think 50% might be a useful compromise.

Okay, it seems reasonable to me. :up:
For maximum range I will use the information on surface range provided by uboat.net for each U-boat type, and I will increase it by 50% after each refit; 'distance travelled so far' will be calculated automatically based on input coordinates. We will need to redo the previously generated logs though.

As we are at it, I remember you once suggested to use commander's personal successes and awards, besides their rank, for calculating boat's veterancy level. If you provide further detail on your idea, I could try implementing it, but I suggest to use only the information which we can obtain directly from our sources, without complicating too much the whole data input process :03:

[keysersoze]

currently, logs generated by my spreadsheet contain two numbers which are related to torpedoes available onboard at any given date; they are: 'ships attacked so far' and 'torpedo loadout at the beginning of the patrol'. Based on the information you have provided, I think that we should increase the latter by a fixed amount (4 [?]) each time the given boat was refitted. Do you agree?


Agreed :up:


Okay, it seems reasonable to me. :up:
For maximum range I will use the information on surface range provided by uboat.net for each U-boat type, and I will increase it by 50% after each refit; 'distance travelled so far' will be calculated automatically based on input coordinates. We will need to redo the previously generated logs though.


Redoing the logs shouldn't be too difficult since we already have stored copies of most of the essential data. I assume we could copy and past the coordinates information, making minor adjustments for any refits (although there shouldn't have been any at that stage of the war).


As we are at it, I remember you once suggested to use commander's personal successes and awards, besides their rank, for calculating boat's veterancy level. If you provide further detail on your idea, I could try implementing it, but I suggest to use only the information which we can obtain directly from our sources, without complicating too much the whole data input process :03:

I have been trying to formulate a simple but effective way to determine commander skill level (for the sake of simplicity, I think we should ignore crew ability). The ideal method would be to calculate veterancy level based on tonnage sunk by date, thereby simulating the commander "learning" the business of U-boat warfare by experience. However, this method seems completely impractical since it would require recalculating tonnage at the beginning of every patrol. I don't think we should impose these burdensome requirements on our volunteers. Calculating veterancy based on commander's awards is also not an ideal solution: the requirements to receive a Knight's Cross declined steadily as Allied ASW increased in lethality, so that they were occasionally being awarded after sinking just one or two merchants by 1944.

In view of these obstacles, I think the best solution would be to have a one-time calculation of veterancy based on the total tonnage sunk by the commander over the course of his career. We would not be able to simulate "learning," but I think this method would greatly reduce the difficulty of determining skill level. For example, any commander that sank 75,000 GRT or more could be considered a "veteran," even from the beginning of the war. This would be about 64 commanders, according to a quick check of uboat.net.

Before assigning specific numbers, though, it would be important to know to what extent veterancy affects AI ability. Has this been tested?

[gap]

Okay, I hope to release the next version of the generator within the next 24 hours.

Talking about veterancy levels, if I have got you, you are proposing not to take commander's ranks in any account. What if we assigned each rank a number of points, and then we averaged them with the tonnage sunk for determining U-oat's veterancy? :hmmm:

[keysersoze]

Okay, I hope to release the next version of the generator within the next 24 hours.


:up:


Talking about veterancy levels, if I have got you, you are proposing not to take commander's ranks in any account. What if we assigned each rank a number of points, and then we averaged them with the tonnage sunk for determining U-oat's veterancy? :hmmm:

I was thinking that rank might be more of a reflection of bureaucracy than skill, but you are probably right that it is a useful variable. Since it is already included in the generator, we might as well make use of it. Of the two variables, I think tonnage sunk should be given a little bit more weight than rank. What do you think?

[gap]

I was thinking that rank might be more of a reflection of bureaucracy than skill, but you are probably right that it is a useful variable. Since it is already included in the generator, we might as well make use of it. Of the two variables, I think tonnage sunk should be given a little bit more weight than rank. What do you think?

Agreed :up:

Now we need to:

- assign each rank a number of points comparable to tonnage sunk
- ask our volunteers if they think it practical to calculate the partial sum of tonnage sunk by any commander until the current patrol (otherwise, only total tonnages at the end of their respective careers will be taken into account)
- determine tonnage sunk + commander rank ranges corresponding to each veterancy level.

Can you please take care of the above tasks? :D

[keysersoze]

Agreed :up:

Now we need to:

- assign each rank a number of points comparable to tonnage sunk
- ask our volunteers if they think it practical to calculate the partial sum of tonnage sunk by any commander until the current patrol (otherwise, only total tonnages at the end of their respective careers will be taken into account)
- determine tonnage sunk + commander rank ranges corresponding to each veterancy level.

Can you please take care of the above tasks? :D

Sure thing. :up:

Even though it would only require very simple arithmetic, I am hesitant to ask people to recalculate tonnage sunk before each patrol, since it would add another barrier that might drive away volunteers. But what do you guys—Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, Volodya, and anybody else interested in helping—think about this? Is it too demanding to calculate add up tonnage before each patrol? How about only using the commander's career tonnage?

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability? For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

[gap]

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability. For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

Maybe we can device a set of single missions to test how veterancy levels affect AI U-boats :hmmm:

[keysersoze]

Maybe we can device a set of single missions to test how veterancy levels affect AI U-boats :hmmm:

Okay, I will run some tests. I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow since i have to prepare for a seminar tomorrow. I don't think it should take too long to get a since of the AI settings though.

[Sartoris]

Sure thing. :up:

Even though it would only require very simple arithmetic, I am hesitant to ask people to recalculate tonnage sunk before each patrol, since it would add another barrier that might drive away volunteers. But what do you guys—Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, Volodya, and anybody else interested in helping—think about this? Is it too demanding to calculate add up tonnage before each patrol? How about only using the commander's career tonnage?

Also, does anyone know how the veterancy levels affect AI ability? For example, if the AI becomes basically worthless at novice level, then it might be better to exclude the novice setting. Similarly, if the veteran level turns AI u-boats into the equivalent of Virginia-class attack subs, then we would make it very rare.

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

[Targor Avelany]

I have nothing against a bit of math.

[gap]

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

I have nothing against a bit of math.

:up:

[keysersoze]

I don't think it would be too much of a bother.

I have nothing against a bit of math.

Thanks for your responses. I think we can plan on calculating tonnage before each patrol. This should provide the most realistic portrayal of veterancy levels :up:

I'm just about to start testing AI U-boats to see how skill level affects their ability. After that, I'll post some preliminary suggestions for setting veterancy levels.

[gap]

Thanks for your responses. I think we can plan on calculating tonnage before each patrol. This should provide the most realistic portrayal of veterancy levels :up:

yep :up:

I'm just about to start testing AI U-boats to see how skill level affects their ability. After that, I'll post some preliminary suggestions for setting veterancy levels.

:sunny:

[gap]

Making lat/long input cells to accept coordinates divided by a comma (e.g. 53.31N, 08.12E) - done :up:
Adding two new current activity tags which you can select: "Heading to refitting area" and "Refitting aborted" - done :up:
Adding three new message flags which can be generated: "Proceeding to refitting area", "Successfully refitted" and "Refitting aborted" - done :up:
Adding information on fuel left / total patrol distance to the logs generated - currently working on it :ping:
Updating fuel / torpedoes aboard, after each successful refitting.
Making U-boat veterancy to be calculated on the base of tonnage sunk by her commander.
Adding an alternative lat/long input for German bases (no coordinates input required).


Have I forgot anything important?

[keysersoze]

Making lat/long input cells to accept coordinates divided by a comma (e.g. 53.31N, 08.12E) - done :up:
Adding two new current activity tags which you can select: "Heading to refitting area" and "Refitting aborted" - done :up:
Adding three new message flags which can be generated: "Proceeding to refitting area", "Successfully refitted" and "Refitting aborted" - done :up:
Adding information on fuel left / total patrol distance to the logs generated - currently working on it :ping:
Updating fuel / torpedoes aboard, after each successful refitting.
Making U-boat veterancy to be calculated on the base of tonnage sunk by her commander.
Adding an alternative lat/long input for German bases (no coordinates input required).


Have I forgot anything important?

I think that's everything :up:

I have done about 25 tests of the U-boat AI, and the results have been exciting—AI U-boats are quite capable, even if they are not very subtle. All of the tests have been at the "elite" setting so far, since I am trying to decide the fairest setup for more comprehensive tests. I think I have found the right setup and will begin testing other veterancy levels this afternoon.

[Targor Avelany]

I think that's everything :up:

I have done about 25 tests of the U-boat AI, and the results have been exciting—AI U-boats are quite capable, even if they are not very subtle. All of the tests have been at the "elite" setting so far, since I am trying to decide the fairest setup for more comprehensive tests. I think I have found the right setup and will begin testing other veterancy levels this afternoon.

I also have nothing to really add, gap. I think it's good!

@keysersoze:
Keep me in the loop on the results. It's pretty obvious, I guess, why I'm interested :)

[keysersoze]

I also have nothing to really add, gap. I think
@keysersoze:
Keep me in the loop on the results. It's pretty obvious, I guess, why I'm interested :)

Will do.

Some basic observations about AI U-boat behavior:


AI U-boats will alter their torpedo shooting practices. Four-torpedo spreads seem to be the most common shooting technique, but I have also seen three-torpedo spreads and single shots

As far as I can tell, torpedoes are always set to run at about 5 m depth, so they tend to explode with contact pistols. I have never seen a dud from too large an impact angle

They will fire as soon as they are in range (this seems to be between 600 and 1000 m), even if the target is approaching bows-on, at a very small AOB.

They will take evasive action when attacked by DDs, though they will always relentlessly pursue merchants.

I'm not certain about this yet, but AI U-boats seem to target the most valuable ship in a convoy first. In my tests, it seemed like they fired at a large liner before any other target, although sometimes the torpedo spreads hit other merchants due to the convoy's zig-zagging. On one occasion, a boat did fire at a DD at extremely short range but missed astern.

I have not yet seen evidence that U-boats will reload and fire again. This is not a definitive statement, since the convoy tends to change direction and try to sail away, while the DDs continually harass the submerged boat, so it may be that the U-boat simply cannot get close enough to fire again.

When submerged, they will cruise at about 80 m depth (just a guess; it's hard to tell exactly with the external cam). They will rise to periscope depth to fire their torpedoes. Sometimes they will stay at periscope depth for a short while, but they will generally return to about 80 m.

They will not moderate their speed or make any attempt to run silent. They run at nearly flank speed, which means that the DDs will immediately detect the U-boat when it gets anywhere near the convoy. Even so, I have not yet seen a U-boat sunk by a destroyer.


I will post more after further tests.

[Targor Avelany]

I have not yet seen evidence that U-boats will reload and fire again. This is not a definitive statement, since the convoy tends to change direction and try to sail away, while the DDs continually harass the submerged boat, so it may be that the U-boat simply cannot get close enough to fire again.

I can answer this one: they will. I've been watching my IXb for enough time.

[keysersoze]

I can answer this one: they will. I've been watching my IXb for enough time.

Thanks for the confirmation. I suspected that might be the case, since they continue to pursue the convoy after firing their first salvo.

[Targor Avelany]

Thanks for the confirmation. I suspected that might be the case, since they continue to pursue the convoy after firing their first salvo.

oh, just remembered what bothers me about the attacks: especially at the start of the war, they always (by default) use magnetic detonators, resulting in premature detonations 70% of the time. I am wondering if there is a way to fix it.

[keysersoze]

oh, just remembered what bothers me about the attacks: especially at the start of the war, they always (by default) use magnetic detonators, resulting in premature detonations 70% of the time. I am wondering if there is a way to fix it.

I haven't seen too many premature detonations yet, but the sea state was also calm. This would be something to ask TDW about. I wonder if it would be possible to have AI U-boats adhere to BdU instructions for torpedo firing during the Torpedokrise :hmmm:

[TheDarkWraith]

When a torpedo is 'created' I can override whether the magnetic detonator is active or not :yep:

[keysersoze]

When a torpedo is 'created' I can override whether the magnetic detonator is active or not :yep:

What can't you do? :O:

[TheDarkWraith]

What can't you do? :O:

Many things that I wish I could with this game. There's just SO MUCH 'stuff' in the exe and act files it's taking a LONG time to decode/figure out.

[gap]

@ keysersoze and Targor

Good findings guys :up:

[finchOU]

Alright, thought i would help in anyway possible....since I've been hanging around for awhile. Can someone PM me to give me a task that needs worked on...... specifically data collection...possible testing. Not a code breaker or programmer type.

[Targor Avelany]

Alright, thought i would help in anyway possible....since I've been hanging around for awhile. Can someone PM me to give me a task that needs worked on...... specifically data collection...possible testing. Not a code breaker or programmer type.

Nothing at this moment. I would suggest you going to the first page of this topic and reading the instructions and ideas. Than downloading the existing Uboat Position calculator and playing around with it to get familiar.

Right now we are waiting for key and gap to finish off the new Uboat Position Calculator, after which we will be punching in numbers :) :yeah:

Welcome onboard!

[finchOU]

yeah ...did that already. Will be standing by.

[keysersoze]

yeah ...did that already. Will be standing by.

Thanks Finch. We appreciate all the help we can get :salute:

I am very nearly done with AI testing to set veterancy levels. It has taken longer than expected, mainly because it took me a while to find a fair testing metric. At first, I was trying to follow the AI U-boat with the external cam and count torpedoes fired vs. torpedo impacts. In the end, this was impractical since it was much too difficult to follow each torpedo underwater. Plus, it would have taken me an eternity to finish enough tests to have a statistically relevant result.

My current method is simply to test results. I do not try to follow each torpedo but instead hover above the convoy and assign one point each time a ship is sunk and half a point when a ship is damaged but not sunk. I give the U-boat one hour in-game time to attack the convoy and then tabulate results. The one hour limit might seem somewhat arbitrary, but I had to draw the line somewhere. I have done quite a few tests that were two hours in length to see if I was biasing the results. On only two occasions, both with skill level set to "elite," were there any sinkings beyond one hour. Since the elite level is already scoring highest (as expected), I think this shortcoming should be okay for our purposes. So far, I have completed 76 tests using this method (I would guess I have done about 150 in all). My goal is to have 110 tests with the current format, but I will post whatever I have completed by tomorrow so that we can get the project moving again.

I am getting one odd result: the "competent" skill level is actually scoring higher than "veteran" right now. I have some theories as to why this is occurring, but I want to wait to see if more results balance this out before commenting further.

[gap]

Alright, thought i would help in anyway possible....since I've been hanging around for awhile. Can someone PM me to give me a task that needs worked on...... specifically data collection...possible testing. Not a code breaker or programmer type.

Stay tuned finchOU :up:


Right now we are waiting for key and gap to finish off the new Uboat Position Calculator, after which we will be punching in numbers :) :yeah:

Sorry for the delay guys, :D
lately I have been quite lazy and, in addition, I have focused my attenction on the best method to update fuel and torpedoes logged after a refit, rather than actually implementing the required formulas. Nonetheless my work on the aforementioned features is almost ready, and today I plan to start working on the U-boat base coordinates alternative input :up:


I am very nearly done with AI testing to set veterancy levels...

:yeah:


I am getting one odd result: the "competent" skill level is actually scoring higher than "veteran" right now. I have some theories as to why this is occurring, but I want to wait to see if more results balance this out before commenting further.

:huh: :hmm2:

[Targor Avelany]

no need for apologies, gap :)
All of us know very well how much you have done and continue doing for SH5.

Plus, we all also have lives. (well, I think we do:haha:)

[gap]

no need for apologies, gap :)
All of us know very well how much you have done and continue doing for SH5.

Thank you for understanding Targor :salute:

Plus, we all also have lives. (well, I think we do:haha:)

...sometimes :D

[keysersoze]

I have finished enough of the AI testing to post the results. In the end, I completed 90 tests, which is short of my goal but hopefully sufficient to still have statistical relevance. You will see that I only ran ten tests at the "poor" skill level, since further tests seemed like a waste of time; I will explain why below.

I have attached the data sets to this post. (By the way, how do I insert images directly into my posts?)

Testing Parameters
All tests were performed in the same mission with only the skill level altered between tests. Further, I performed the tests for each skill level in groups of five at a time to ensure I did not accidentally alter any of the parameters of the mission when I changed the skill level. The U-boat was positioned approximately 3 km away from a convoy consisting of one large liner and five medium merchants. I ran a number of tests with various escorts, but I decided to use a best-case scenario as my baseline test. As mentioned yesterday, I was only testing outcomes, rather than following each torpedo fired. I gave the AI U-boat one in-game hour to sink as many ships as possible, assigning one point for sinking a ship and half a point for damaging a ship but not sinking it. Whenever a ship was damaged, I observed it for one additional in-game hour to see if it would sink.

Results and the Competent/Veteran Anomaly
As you can see, "competent" is still scoring slightly better than "veteran." After observing the AI U-boats and the convoys they hunted, I've come to the conclusion that the veterancy levels mainly affect U-boat sensors. For example, with "poor" skill level, the U-boat never noticed the convoy. On several occasions, the boat approached the convoy, passed between the columns of ships, nearly collided with the large liner, and then sailed merrily along, with the commander apparently none the wiser that he had passed within about 10 meters from a 30,000 GRT ship! In the case of "competent" scoring higher than "veteran," I believe this is to do with the fact that the competent commander noticed the convoy later than the veteran commander, which meant that he was closer to the convoy and able to take more accurate shots. Anecdotally, my observations appear to bear this out: the vast majority of the successful attacks by competent commanders occurred during their first attack on the convoy; unlike competent commanders, veterans and elite captains sank most of their targets after the initial torpedo salvo, as they chased, reloaded, and fired again. The competent commanders, while more accurate for the first shot, had difficulty tracking the convoy once it took evasive action.

Although this reveals some interesting insights into the AI, it also points to a shortcoming of this testing method. Since veteran and elite commanders are better at detecting the enemy in the first place, they would likely continue to get high marks even when placed farther away from the convoy. Competent commanders, on the other hand, would see their effectiveness decline rapidly the farther they got from the convoy, since they might not even be able to sense it.

Proposal
In light of these findings, I propose we stick to a distribution of skill levels that mostly ignores the anomaly between veteran and competent skill settings. I also think we can ignore the poor and possibly the novice skills, since those settings make AI U-boats quite bad. In the scoring rubric below, I assigned points to 1) commander ranks and 2) tonnage sunk. Tonnage sunk is given more weight than rank, since practical experience sinking ships would likely make one a better U-boat commander than wearing shiny epaulettes. These point levels, when added together, give us a corresponding veterancy level. I don't have much experience creating Excel formulae, so the point system below might seem a bit crude. I'm sure there is a simpler and more elegant way to do it.

Ranks:
Oberleutnant z. S. = 1 point
Kapitänleutnant = 2 points
Korvettenkapitän = 3 points

Tonnage Sunk:
1 - 15,000 = 2 points
15,001 - 25,000 = 3 points
over 25,000 = 5 points
--------------------------
Competent = 1 point (default)
Veteran = 4 points
Elite = 6 points

I have also tried to create another iteration of the scoring rubric for the later war, since it seems that the quality of training, as well as the opportunities to make mistakes and not get killed for them, would have decreased. I was thinking about something like using the above system from Sept. 1939 until late 1943 and then using a second system, possibly with "novice" as the default skill setting, until the end of the war. What do you guys think?

[Targor Avelany]

Nice! Very interesting results!

Very good job! :up:

[gap]

Well done, Daniel :up:

Based on your findings, this is my proposal for crew ranking calculation:

lesser than 12,500 tons sunk: Poor
12,500 - 24,999: Novice
25,000 - 37,499: Competent
37,500 - 49,999: Veteran
50,000 and more: Elite

Commander's ranks would contribute to the total tonnage sunk with the following additional factors:

Fähnrich zur See: 3,125
Oberfähnrich zur See: 6,250
Leutnant zur See: 9,325
Oberleutnant zur See: 12,500
Kapitänleutnant: 15,625
Korvettenkapitän: 18,750
Fregattenkapitän: 21,875
Kapitän zur See: 25,000

As you can see, the "Poor" ranking would be extremely unlikely, being applied to commanders with not tonnage sunk whose rank was lower than "Oberleutnant zur See" (the most common rank of U-boat commanders, according to uboat.net (http://uboat.net/men/ranks/oblt.htm)). "Novice" would be the most common in-gane ranking applied to medium-high rank commanders at the beginning of their careers. Getting promoted to the "Elite" level would take 37,500 tons sunk to an Oberleutnant and 34,375 to a Kapitänleutnant; respectively 25,000 and 21,875 for the "Veteran" level, and 12,500 - 9,375 for the "Competent" level. On the other hand, the maximum rank which a Kapitän zur See could attain having sunk lesser than 12,500 tons, is "Competent" (which is also his starting ranking); but it is extremely unlikely that such an high-ranked officer would have been given the command of an U-boat anyway.

What do you think? :hmm2:


I have also tried to create another iteration of the scoring rubric for the later war, since it seems that the quality of training, as well as the opportunities to make mistakes and not get killed for them, would have decreased. I was thinking about something like using the above system from Sept. 1939 until late 1943 and then using a second system, possibly with "novice" as the default skill setting, until the end of the war. What do you guys think?

Wouldn't better ASW sensors and AI be enough to realistically decrease the performance of our virtual wolf pack mates, at late war? :06:
Moreover, the assignement of many unexperienced commanders to U-boat's command during late war, would further decrease their performance...

[keysersoze]

Based on your findings, this is my proposal for crew ranking calculation:

lesser than 12,500 tons sunk: Poor
12,500 - 24,999: Novice
25,000 - 37,499: Competent
37,500 - 49,999: Veteran
50,000 and more: Elite

Commander's ranks would contribute to the total tonnage sunk with the following additional factors:

Fähnrich zur See: 3,125
Oberfähnrich zur See: 6,250
Leutnant zur See: 9,325
Oberleutnant zur See: 12,500
Kapitänleutnant: 15,625
Korvettenkapitän: 18,750
Fregattenkapitän: 21,875
Kapitän zur See: 25,000

As you can see, the "Poor" ranking would be extremely unlikely, being applied to commanders with not tonnage sunk whose rank was lower than "Oberleutnant zur See" (the most common rank of U-boat commanders, according to uboat.net (http://uboat.net/men/ranks/oblt.htm)). "Novice" would be the most common in-gane ranking applied to medium-high rank commanders at the beginning of their careers. Getting promoted to the "Elite" level would take 37,500 tons sunk to an Oberleutnant and 34,375 to a Kapitänleutnant; respectively 25,000 and 21,875 for the "Veteran" level, and 12,500 - 9,375 for the "Competent" level. On the other hand, the maximum rank which a Kapitän zur See could attain having sunk lesser than 12,500 tons, is "Competent" (which is also his starting ranking); but it is extremely unlikely that such an high-ranked officer would have been given the command of an U-boat anyway.

What do you think? :hmm2:


Your system is much more elegant than mine. I like it, except I think it might give us too many novice commanders at the beginning of their careers. Even when placed in an ideal position against a totally unguarded convoy, novice AI is not very good. My concern is that, if forced to intercept a guarded convoy from a greater distance, novice commanders would be almost useless.

Also, I wonder if there should be a bonus to prewar U-boat commanders. Many of these captains had been the beneficiaries of extensive training programs while the U-boot arm was being built up. A number of them also participated in interdiction patrols during the Spanish civil war and conducted simulated wolfpack attacks beginning in late 1936 in the Baltic and in the Atlantic proper. This is why I was inclined to make "competent" the default setting. Then again, I might just have difficulty calling Prien, Lüth, etc. novices... :hmmm:


Wouldn't better ASW sensors and AI be enough to realistically decrease the performance of our virtual wolf pack mates, at late war? :06:
Moreover, the assignement of many unexperienced commanders to U-boat's command during late war, would further decrease their performance...

Good points :yep: Although I did not record any instances of destroyers sinking AI U-boats with depth charges, their very presence was often enough to allow the convoy to escape.

[gap]

Let's make a few examples, based on my proposed ranking system:

U-27 / Johannes Franz (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u27.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 9,325 (Lt.) 624 9,949 Novice


U-28 / Günter Kuhnke (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u28.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 4,955 17,455 Novice
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 15,232 30,857 Competent
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 26,447 42,072 Veteran
4th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 36,750 52,375 Elite
...

U-29 / Otto Schuhart (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u29.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 41,905 57,530 Elite
...

U-30 / Fritz-Julius Lemp (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u30.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 23,206 35,706 Competent
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 23,206 38,831 Veteran
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 54,631 70,256 Elite
...

U-31 / Johannes Habekost (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u31.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 0 15,625 Novice
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 8,706 24,331 Novice
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 8,706 24,331 Novice
4th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 17,962 33,587 Competent
5th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 17,962 33,587 Competent
...

U-31 / Wilfried Prellberg (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u31.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
...
6th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 4,400 16,900 Novice
7th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 9,789 22,289 Novice


U-32 / Paul Büchel (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u32.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 0 15,625 Novice
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 5,738 21,363 Novice
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 6,697 22,322 Novice
...

U-32 / Hans Jenisch (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u32.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
...
4th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 2,818 15,318 Novice
5th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 2,818 15,318 Novice
6th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 18,916 31,416 Competent
7th patrol 12,500 (Oblt.) 40,009 52,509 Elite
...


U-33 / Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 5,914 21,539 Novice
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 11,002 26,627 Competent
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 11,002 26,627 Competent


U-34 / Wilhelm Rollmann (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u34.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 11,357 26,982 Competent
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 27,903 43,528 Veteran
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 33,528 49,153 Veteran
4th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 33,528 49,153 Veteran
5th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 34,123 49,748 Veteran
6th patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 56,557 72,182 Elite
...


U-35 / Werner Lott (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u35.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 0 15,625 Novice
2nd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 13,864 29,489 Competent
3rd patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 13,864 29,489 Competent


U-36 / Wilhelm Fröhlich (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u36.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 15,625 (Kptlt.) 2,813 18,438 Novice
2nd patrol 18,750 (KrvKpt.) 2,813 21,563 Novice


Notes:
- when not inferable from uboat.net's information, Oberleutnant zur See was used as standard commander's rank.
- ships sunk by mine or captured weren't considered
- ships damaged and warship tonnages were considered as "normal" tonnage

Comments:
Maybe we should apply progressively wider tonnage ranges for higher rankings :hmmm:

[keysersoze]

Let's make a few examples, based on my proposed ranking system:
....
Comments:
Maybe we should apply progressively wider tonnage ranges for higher rankings :hmmm:

Some very illustrative examples. Thanks gap :up: How about slightly decreasing the requirements for the competent ranking but increasing them for veteran and elite? That way, more commanders will fall into the middle categories, meaning it would be be easy to gain initial experience but it would become progressively more difficult to achieve a higher status.

[gap]

Your system is much more elegant than mine. I like it, except I think it might give us too many novice commanders at the beginning of their careers. Even when placed in an ideal position against a totally unguarded convoy, novice AI is not very good. My concern is that, if forced to intercept a guarded convoy from a greater distance, novice commanders would be almost useless.

Some very illustrative examples. Thanks gap :up: How about slightly decreasing the requirements for the competent ranking but increasing them for veteran and elite? That way, more commanders will fall into the middle categories, meaning it would be be easy to gain initial experience but it would become progressively more difficult to achieve a higher status.

What about the following figures?

lesser than 6,250 tons sunk: Poor
6,250 - 12,499: Novice
12,500 - 24,999: Competent
25,000 - 49,999: Veteran
50,000 and more: Elite

Commander's rank additional factors:

Fähnrich zur See: 1,562
Oberfähnrich zur See: 3,125
Leutnant zur See: 4,687
Oberleutnant zur See: 6,250
Kapitänleutnant: 7,812
Korvettenkapitän: 9,375
Fregattenkapitän: 10,937
Kapitän zur See: 12,500

They should make unexperienced U-boat crews to gain experience much faster at the beginning of their career. The novice level would still appear, but much lesser frequently :yep:


Also, I wonder if there should be a bonus to prewar U-boat commanders. Many of these captains had been the beneficiaries of extensive training programs while the U-boot arm was being built up. A number of them also participated in interdiction patrols during the Spanish civil war and conducted simulated wolfpack attacks beginning in late 1936 in the Baltic and in the Atlantic proper. This is why I was inclined to make "competent" the default setting. Then again, I might just have difficulty calling Prien, Lüth, etc. novices... :hmmm:

a few remarks:

1. rank-relative additional tonnages in our ranking system are exactly meant to mimic this fact, giving a starting bonus to the most experienced commanders. If you look at my previous post, at the very beginning of the conflict the most common rank was Kptlt. Later during the war, low-ranking officers were assigned U-boat commands more often, due to the high casualty rates.

2. Tonnages sunk during the first part of the war were consistently higher than at later stages. This should make successful commanders (such as Prien, Lüth, etc.) to achieve high ranking levels in few patrols.

3. During the first months of the conflict, group strategies were hardly used. By the time the wolfpack tactic had been fully developed, our aces should have attained their maximum rankings :up:


Good points :yep: Although I did not record any instances of destroyers sinking AI U-boats with depth charges, their very presence was often enough to allow the convoy to escape.

Another remark:

During late war, tonnage success decreased drastically. This fact will be refected by our ranking system with lower veterancy levels, without need of further adjustements.

[gap]

Using the new ranges:

U-27 / Johannes Franz (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u27.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 4,687 (Lt.) 624 5,311 Poor


U-28 / Günter Kuhnke (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u28.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 4,955 11,205 Novice
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 15,232 23,044 Competent
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 26,447 34,259 Veteran
4th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 36,750 44,562 Veteran
5th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 51,373 59,185 Elite
...

U-29 / Otto Schuhart (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u29.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 41,905 49,717 Veteran
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 41,905 49,717 Veteran
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 51,694 59,506 Elite
...

U-30 / Fritz-Julius Lemp (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u30.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 23,206 29,456 Veteran
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 23,206 31,018 Veteran
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 54,631 62,443 Elite
...

U-31 / Johannes Habekost (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u31.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 0 7,812 Novice
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 8,706 16,518 Competent
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 8,706 16,518 Competent
4th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 17,962 25,774 Veteran
5th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 17,962 33,587 Veteran
...

U-31 / Wilfried Prellberg (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u31.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
...
6th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 4,400 10,650 Novice
7th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 9,789 16,039 Competent


U-32 / Paul Büchel (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u32.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 0 7,812 Novice
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 5,738 13,550 Competent
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 6,697 14,509 Competent
...

U-32 / Hans Jenisch (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u32.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
...
4th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 2,818 9,068 Novice
5th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 2,818 9,068 Novice
6th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 18,916 25,166 Veteran
7th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 40,009 46,259 Veteran
8th patrol 6,250 (Oblt.) 90,540 96,790 Elite
...


U-33 / Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 5,914 13,726 Competent
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 11,002 18,814 Competent
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 11,002 18,814 Competent


U-34 / Wilhelm Rollmann (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u34.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 11,357 19,169 Competent
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 27,903 35,715 Veteran
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 33,528 41,340 Veteran
4th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 33,528 41,340 Veteran
5th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 34,123 41,935 Veteran
6th patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 56,557 64,369 Elite
...


U-35 / Werner Lott (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u35.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 0 7,812 Novice
2nd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 13,864 21,676 Competent
3rd patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 13,864 21,676 Competent


U-36 / Wilhelm Fröhlich (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u36.html)

commander's rank tonnage sunk total ranking
1st patrol 7,812 (Kptlt.) 2,813 10,625 Novice
2nd patrol 9,375 (KrvKpt.) 2,813 12,188 Novice


Result:

1 Poor + 9 Novice levels versus 16 Novice levels obtained for the same U-boat commanders using the previous ranges :03:

[keysersoze]

What about the following figures?
....

I like your figures and am convinced by your arguments :up:

One final question: do you think we should use the poor skill? So far poor commanders have not even noticed the convoy was there, even though they sailed right beside it.

[gap]

One final question: do you think we should use the poor skill? So far poor commanders have not even noticed the convoy was there, even though they were sailed right beside it.

Personally I would keep them for three reasons:

1 - "Poor" rankings will be quite rare, being applied only to unusually low-ranked U-boat commanders. I cannot think of a Cadet or a Senior Cadet being given the command of a submarine other than in emergency circumstances, whereas a Leutenant would need to sink just 1,653 tons for being promoted to the next level (which is usually achieved in one, maximum two war patrols).

2 - Loving variety, I think that giving up one veterancy level out of five would be a shame.

3 - Possibly, there is some space for making "Poor" subs more effective, via AI or sensors tweaks. Or at least I hope so :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

Personally I would keep them for three reasons:

1 - "Poor" rankings will be quite rare, being applied only to unusually low-ranked U-boat commanders. I cannot think of a Cadet or a Senior Cadet being given the command of a submarine other than in emergency circumstances, whereas a Leutenant would need to sink just 1,653 tons for being promoted to the next level (which is usually achieved in one, maximum two war patrols).

2 - Loving variety, I think that giving up one veterancy level out of five would be a shame.

3 - Possibly, there is some space for making "Poor" subs more effective, via AI or sensors tweaks. Or at least I hope so :hmm2:

Sounds good to me. As long as it is rare, we can use it to add variety. As you said, there's also no reason to think U-boat AI could not be improved, judging from TDW's successes with IRAI.

[gap]

Sounds good to me. As long as it is rare, we can use it to add variety. As you said, there's also no reason to think U-boat AI could not be improved, judging from TDW's successes with IRAI.

Okay, tomorrow I will start implementing the new U-boat ranking system. Keep me informed in case you get any other remark :up:

[keysersoze]

Okay, tomorrow I will start implementing the new U-boat ranking system. Keep me informed in case you get any other remark :up:

Sounds good. I will let you know if I can do some more testing, but I think I need to devote a few hours to my thesis tonight :shifty:

[gap]

Sounds good. I will let you know if I can do some more testing, but I think I need to devote a few hours to my thesis tonight :shifty:

Never mind. Your thesis have the priority, indeed :)

Okay, tomorrow I will start implementing the new U-boat ranking system. Keep me informed in case you get any other remark :up:

done. :up:

At this point I got just to make some little changes to the torpedo/fuel fucntions, and to add the custom base coordinates :up:

[SkyBaron]

Just an idea, have you guys thought about contacting the uboat.net site's webmaster, explain the project and ask if he could provide the database used to generate the site's page? (with proper credit to the site of course)

http://www.uboat.net/about/contact.htm

He probably has a file(maybe sql or even excel) with all the date/coordinates for all patrols. I have no idea if he would be interested in providing this file but you guys could give it shot! Who knows? :)

[gap]

Just an idea, have you guys thought about contacting the uboat.net site's webmaster, explain the project and ask if he could provide the database used to generate the site's page? (with proper credit to the site of course)

http://www.uboat.net/about/contact.htm

He probably has a file(maybe sql or even excel) with all the date/coordinates for all patrols. I have no idea if he would be interested in providing this file but you guys could give it shot! Who knows? :)

Good idea.:up:

I never thought about getting in touch with uboat.net's webmaster, but as you are saying, this project would greatly benefit if they agree to share with us their raw data.

Keysersoze, Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, etc, what do you guys think? Any of you wanting to volunteer and write an e-mail as suggested by SkyBaron? I think it would be better if a native English speaker did it, or at least someone writing in a better English than my one :O:

[keysersoze]

Just an idea, have you guys thought about contacting the uboat.net site's webmaster, explain the project and ask if he could provide the database used to generate the site's page? (with proper credit to the site of course)

http://www.uboat.net/about/contact.htm

He probably has a file(maybe sql or even excel) with all the date/coordinates for all patrols. I have no idea if he would be interested in providing this file but you guys could give it shot! Who knows? :)

Very good idea SkyBaron. Now that I think about it, I believe the creators of SH3 Commander were able to get a spreadsheet containing the names of every known historical crewmember of every U-boat from a similar website, so it's wouldn't be entirely unprecedented.

Good idea.:up:

I never thought about getting in touch with uboat.net's webmaster, but as you are saying, this project would greatly benefit if they agree to share with us their raw data.

Keysersoze, Targor, Sartoris, Dogfish, etc, what do you guys think? Any of you wanting to volunteer and write an e-mail as suggested by SkyBaron? I think it would be better if a native English speaker did it, or at least someone writing in a better English than my one

I'd be happy to write the e-mail. And, by the way, your English is excellent. Certainly much better than my Italian, which is non-existent :O:

[SkyBaron]

? I think it would be better if a native English speaker did it, or at least someone writing in a better English than my one :O:

Actually the site's owner is from Iceland :)

[gap]

Actually the site's owner is from Iceland :)

It seems like you are well informed. Are you native to Iceland by any chance? :D

[SkyBaron]

It seems like you are well informed. Are you native to Iceland by any chance? :D

No, I just read the owner's address in the about page! :)

[gap]

No, I just read the owner's address in the about page! :)

For a moment I hoped that YOU were the webmaster, incognito on subsim :haha:

[Targor Avelany]

Sorry for a bit of silence, guys. Was on a bit of a vacation for an extended-long weekend. Now I'm back! Once I catch on reading the forum, I'll catch up on whatever is asked of me :)

[gap]

Sorry for a bit of silence, guys. Was on a bit of a vacation for an extended-long weekend. Now I'm back! Once I catch on reading the forum, I'll catch up on whatever is asked of me :)

No worries Targor, I hope you enjoyed your vacation :up:

I have the new version of the log generator pretty much ready; in partial defence of my delay I will say that as most of you have been quite silent lately I didn't rush on it and I focused on other stuff. :O:

I can release it anytime, if you are ready to use it :salute:

[keysersoze]

Sorry for a bit of silence, guys. Was on a bit of a vacation for an extended-long weekend. Now I'm back! Once I catch on reading the forum, I'll catch up on whatever is asked of me :)

No problem at all...real life has to come first. I hope you had a pleasant and relaxing vacation.

No worries Targor, I hope you enjoyed your vacation :up:

I have the new version of the log generator pretty much ready; in partial defence of my delay I will say that as most of you have been quite silent lately I didn't rush on it and I focused on other stuff. :O:

I can release it anytime, if you are ready to use it :salute:

Good to hear of your progress on the log generator :up:

There's no need to rush anything; you are involved in many projects, and it is not always possible to work on all of them. I have also taken advantage of the past several days to get some much-needed work done on my thesis (it is now very, very close to being finished :D) and have also tried to take advantage of the gorgeous weather we have been having recently.

Feel free to release the generator any time you are ready.

As SkyBaron suggested, I have also contacted Mr. Helgason, the webmaster at uboat.net to see if he has a single spreadsheet for U-boat coordinates that he would be willing to share with us. He might not feel comfortable releasing such information, but it never hurts to ask. I will post here as soon as I receive a response.

[keysersoze]

Hi guys,

I received a response this morning from Mr. Helgason regarding the use of uboat.net's coordinates data. While he was very interested in and supportive of our project, the uboat.net team is unfortunately unable to provide the spreadsheet. (He mentioned they also had to turn down a similar request from the Wolves of the Atlantic modders).

He suggested using the BdU KTB available at uboatarchive.net (http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm) to obtain the data more quickly and easily. I've read through portions of Dönitz' KTB in the past, and he does indeed provide daily positions for his U-boat force (most of the time). However, these positions are in the Kriegsmarine grid format, so it would be necessary to convert them to lat/long, perhaps using a site like this (http://grid.nylle.de/find). Further, uboat.net's format, in which U-boat careers are already broken up into patrols, seems more accessible than reading through the many pages of the BdU KTB. What do you guys think?

[gap]

Good to hear of your progress on the log generator :up:

There's no need to rush anything; you are involved in many projects, and it is not always possible to work on all of them.

...

Feel free to release the generator any time you are ready.

It would be good if, while I am working on other stuff, people started getting accustomed with the new features of the log generator. I hope to release the new version before the next week; I onli need to give it the last touch ups :up:


I have also taken advantage of the past several days to get some much-needed work done on my thesis (it is now very, very close to being finished :D) and have also tried to take advantage of the gorgeous weather we have been having recently.

:sunny:


I received a response this morning from Mr. Helgason regarding the use of uboat.net's coordinates data.

...

He suggested using the BdU KTB available at uboatarchive.net (http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB.htm) to obtain the data more quickly and easily.

...

What do you guys think?

Imo uboat.net as main data source; KTB logs available on uboatarchive.net a secondary source, in case of dubious data or missing from uboat.net :salute:

[keysersoze]

It would be good if, while I am working on other stuff, people started getting accustomed with the new features of the log generator. I hope to release the new version before the next week; I onli need to give it the last touch ups :up:


:up:

Which features do you mean? I think everyone is up to speed with what has been released so far.


Imo uboat.net as main data source; KTB logs available on uboatarchive.net a secondary source, in case of dubious data or missing from uboat.net :salute:

Agreed :up:

[gap]

version 2 of the U-boat logs generator ready: :up:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7725fcao9988kc1

list of new features:


coordinates divided by a comma (e.g. 53.31N, 08.12E), as used by uboat.net, are now accepted.


new "magic number" format. It now encompasses the following information:

doctrine / report / veterancy level / days elapsed / total patrol days / fuel left / distance to the next refitting point / ships attacked / torpedoes loaded


added several base port presets. You should select them as patrol start/ending locations instead of setting a coordinate. List of ports currently featured:

Bergen
Bordeaux
Brest
Brunsbüttel
Cadiz
Danzig
Eckernförde
Fedosia
Flensburg
Gotenhafen
Hammerfest
Hela
Helgoland
Horten
Jakarta
Kiel
Kirkenes
Kobe
Königsberg
Konstanza
Kristiansand
La Pallice
La Spezia
Las Palmas
Libau
Lorient
Mandal
Memel
Messina
Narvik
Neustadt
Penang
Pillau
Pola
Salamis
Sewastopol
Singapur
Skjomenfjord
St. Nazaire
Stettin
Surabaya
Swinemünde
Toulon
Travemünde
Trondheim
Vigo
Warnemünde
Wilhelmshaven


If you meet any port not included in this list, you should report it, specifying the coordinates that you have used for it, and I will add it to the next version of the generator.


Added two new "current activity" selectable items:

heading to refitting area
refitting aborted

You should use the heading to refitting area tag from when the boat start heading for the refitting rendez-vous to when she gets refitted. Select refitting aborted if for any reason the refitting had been cancelled. A "succesfull refitting" report will be generated at the end of a string of consecutive heading to refitting area tags, unless the next tag is refitting aborted, shadowing single unit, shadowing convoy, attacking contact, avoiding enemy warships, avoiding enemy planes, facing warship attack, facing air attack, facing combined attack, U-boat destroyed, in which case it is intended that the refitting was cancelled or postponed. The refitting aborted tag will generate a refitting aborted report, whereas the other tags won't generate any special report, but the ones previously connected with them.

When a succesfull refitting report is generated, the fuel left counter will be updated (according to the distance to base/next refitting rendez-vous) as well as the torpedo loaded counter (up to a max of 4 torpedoes depending on the number of ships attacked since the patrol start/last successful refitting).


Added a Show refittings at sea on map option, to display on map the locations of the recently added tags.


A tonnage sunk data entry cell now replaces the previous crew ranking input. You should enter there the tonnage sunk by the
U-boat commander, from the beginning of his career (even though in another boat) to the current patrol (current patrol included). Captured ships or ships sunk by mine shouldn't be counted. Warship tonnage and damaged ships should count as "normal" tonnage.
See the discussion between me and keysersoze a few posts back, for further detail on this topic.

You can copy/paste your old logs in the new log generator, and make then the required adjustements, without need to re-enter all the data again (just make sure that only input cells -the white ones- are copied/pasted, or the generator won't accept the new data) :sunny:

That's all, I think :)

[keysersoze]

version 2 of the U-boat logs generator ready: :up:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7725fcao9988kc1

list of new features:

.....

That's all, I think :)

Awesome gap. Thank you for your hard work :up:

I'll go through all of the currently-uploaded logs and convert them to the new format. I will also finish off the rest of U-34's patrols. After that, I think we can finally kick this project off properly.

[gap]

Awesome gap. Thank you for your hard work :up:

I'll go through all of the currently-uploaded logs and convert them to the new format. I will also finish off the rest of U-34's patrols. After that, I think we can finally kick this project off properly.

:yeah:

let me know in case you spot any error: I have updated the spreadsheet during my spare time, and I could have made several mistakes :salute:

[keysersoze]

Am I going crazy, or did uboat.net change their format for listing coordinates? I was trying to do U-34's second patrol, but they seem to have switched from the old deg/min + compass direction to a coordinate plane format :hmmm:

Is anyone else seeing this?

[gap]

Am I going crazy, or did uboat.net change their format for listing coordinates? I was trying to do U-34's second patrol, but they seem to have switched from the old deg/min + compass direction to a coordinate plane format :hmmm:

Is anyone else seeing this?

yes, you are right, and this is happening just after your email to the site owner... :o

maybe they don't like our using their data. :-?

I will tweak once more our calculator spreadhseet, and I will make it to accept the new coordinate format, but I couldn't ever imagine that v 3 would have been that short-lived :O:

[volodya61]

yes, you are right, and this is happening just after your email to the site owner... :o
maybe they don't like our using their data. :-?

As we say in such cases - like the best, but it turned out as always..

(not sure of the accuracy of the translation :oops:)

[gap]

As we say in such cases - like the best, but it turned out as always..

(not sure of the accuracy of the translation :oops:)

:06:

sorry Volodya, I don't get it :oops:

[volodya61]

:06:

sorry Volodya, I don't get it :oops:

In other words - 'we wanted to make a better, but turned worse as always.. :)

[gap]

In other words - 'we wanted to make a better, but turned worse as always.. :)

Now it is much more clear! :up:

Spanish speakers would say that metimos la pata: we have put our foot where we shouldn't have :D

[keysersoze]

yes, you are right, and this is happening just after your email to the site owner... :o

maybe they don't like our using their data. :-?


That crossed my mind as well, but I think it's just a very poorly timed coincidence. The gentleman with whom I exchanged e-mails was enthusiastic about the project and seemed familiar with both SH3 and SH5.


I will tweak once more our calculator spreadhseet, and I will make it to accept the new coordinate format, but I couldn't ever imagine that v 3 would have been that short-lived :O:

From what I have seen of it so far, it looks great :up:

In other words - 'we wanted to make a better, but turned worse as always.. :)

Murphy's Law strikes again :O:

[gap]

That crossed my mind as well, but I think it's just a very poorly timed coincidence. The gentleman with whom I exchanged e-mails was enthusiastic about the project and seemed familiar with both SH3 and SH5.

Yes, I am also sure about it: websites of this kind are normally run by passion-driven history lovers, with no other concern than to spread their hobby. We were just making some fun :03:


From what I have seen of it so far, it looks great :up:

Currently working on the +/- coordinates format :up:


Murphy's Law strikes again :O:

Damn Murphy, he got to stick his nose everywhere... especially when it is about SH5 :dead: :haha:

[gap]

3rd version of the log generator ready for download:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?0ms3ml9vet9de5t

udates list:


it now accepts coordinates in both N-E/S-W and +/- formats;


added an informative row on U-boat's veterancy level, as calculated from commander's ranking and sunk tonnage.


The ranking will be affected negatively by suffered damage (-2 levels). In this respect, I am thinking to add a -1 fatigue factor at the end of very long patrols or after suffered attacks (the latter reversible after a few days). Similarly, I could add a morale boost lasting few days after any successful attack or mid-patrol refitting, and for the duration of wolfpack operations. What do you think? :hmm2:

[keysersoze]

3rd version of the log generator ready for download:


:up:


The ranking will be affected negatively by suffered damage (-2 levels). In this respect, I am thinking to add a -1 fatigue factor at the end of very long patrols or after suffered attacks (the latter reversible after a few days). Similarly, I could add a morale boost lasting few days after any successful attack or mid-patrol refitting, and for the duration of wolfpack operations. What do you think? :hmm2:

Tying morale/veterancy to refits, successes, and damage is an excellent idea. I would be cautious about adding too large a boost for U-boats participating in wolfpack operations, since this would include quite a lot of boats in later years. I also agree with decreasing skill level after long patrols, though it would be best to tie this to U-boat type so that Type IXs are still capable of long-range operations.

As I was reviewing past patrol logs today, I was also wrestling with the logic of including minelaying operations in the veterancy calculations—I know, I'm always babbling on about minelaying :O: I can think of four justifications for the change:


Minelaying was a hazardous operation that required considerable skill.
The success of a captain's minelaying operation can be reasonably determined by the tonnage sunk by those mines. If a U-boat sank a large number of ships with her mines, that's a good indication of the captain's abilities; conversely, unsuccessful mine fields are often indicative of poor mine placement. (I know of at least one skipper that was relieved for setting his mines improperly, as Dönitz thought he lacked the skill/courage to infiltrate a harbor.)
Those captains that were skilled enough to infiltrate harbor defenses and set their mines in busy shipping lanes should see their skill increased.
Including minelaying tonnage in the veterancy calculations would simplify the calculation required of volunteers.


To play devil's advocate with myself, here are a few reasons to keep it as it is:

While minelaying requires skill, it is a different sort of skill from calculating firing solutions and sinking merchants.
Adding minelaying tonnage might necessitate a rebalance of the veterancy tonnage levels.
Minelaying tonnage reflects sheer luck, in addition to infiltration ability and seamanship.


Sorry for thinking out loud here, but I think it's an issue worth talking about.

[gap]

Tying morale/veterancy to refits, successes, and damage is an excellent idea. I would be cautious about adding too large a boost for U-boats participating in wolfpack operations, since this would include quite a lot of boats in later years. I also agree with decreasing skill level after long patrols, though it would be best to tie this to U-boat type so that Type IXs are still capable of long-range operations.

Sorry for the delay of my answer keysersoze: I was devicing a bonuses/handicaps plan for our ranking system; what do you think about it? :03:

HANDICAPS

Event Factor Delay Duration

Suffered damage -2 none to patrol endig

Suffered attack -2 none 1 day
-1 1 day 1 day

Refit aborted -2 none 1 day
-1 1 day 1 day

Mission failed -1 none 1 day

Target missed -1 none 1 day

Contact lost -1 none 1 day

Long patrol -1 > 6 weeks and to patrol endig
> 50% of tpl

Very long patrol* -1 > 12 weeks and to patrol endig
> 75% of tpl
* cumulated with "Long patrol" handicap



BONUSES

Event Factor Delay Duration

U-boat leaving base +1 none 1 week

U-boat refitted +2 none 2 days
+1 2 days 3 days

Mission accomplished +1 none 1 day

Successful attack +1 none 2 days

heading for home* +1 none to patrol endig
* only applied in conjunction with "Long patrol" or with "Long patrol" + "Very long patrol" handicaps

Numbers I have entered in the above charts are just indicative, so please feel free to suggest better ones :up:


As I was reviewing past patrol logs today, I was also wrestling with the logic of including minelaying operations in the veterancy calculations—I know, I'm always babbling on about minelaying :O: I can think of four justifications for the change:

...

To play devil's advocate with myself, here are a few reasons to keep it as it is:

...

Sorry for thinking out loud here, but I think it's an issue worth talking about.

I like your playing devil's advocate :haha:

In my opinion, the only significant downside to your proposal is that including mine-sunk tonnage would unbalance our ranking/tonnage calculation, and I was quite satisfied with the nice ranking progressions we had obtained so far.

Right now I don't feel like rethinking the whole system, but if you can put yourself at work on it, I will be glad to update our spreadsheet with the numbers you will suggest. :salute:

[keysersoze]

Sorry for the delay of my answer keysersoze: I was devicing a bonuses/handicaps plan for our ranking system; what do you think about it? :03:
Nice work :up: I only have one very minor suggestion: we might want to change the modifier for "suffered attack" from -2 to -1. Even though the time delay is set to 1 day, in the mid- to late-war U-boats were attacked so often that it might be imprudent to penalize them so harshly.


In my opinion, the only significant downside to your proposal is that including mine-sunk tonnage would unbalance our ranking/tonnage calculation, and I was quite satisfied with the nice ranking progressions we had obtained so far.

Right now I don't feel like rethinking the whole system, but if you can put yourself at work on it, I will be glad to update our spreadsheet with the numbers you will suggest. :salute:

Indeed, you did a great job with the tonnage calculation, and I wouldn't want to obviate that work. I checked the personnel records for all U-boat captains scoring above 50,000 tons. To my surprise, I found that there were only ten captains who stood to benefit from including mine tonnage (out of the 84 aces). Here is a breakdown of the ten captains who sunk vessels with their mines:

Wolfgang Lüth
47 ships sunk, 225756 tons
1 ship sunk [mine], 5995 tons = 2.7% of total

Wilhelm Rollmann
23 ships sunk, 103884
1 ship sunk [mine], 7807 tons = 7.5% of total

Fritz-Julius Lemp
20 ships sunk, 96639 tons
5 ships sunk [mine], 27540 tons = 28.5% of total

Karl-Heinz Moehle
21 ships sunk, 93197 tons
2 ships sunk [mines], 7929 tons = 8.5% of total

Georg Schewe
16 ships sunk, 85779 tons
1 ship sunk [mine], 4373 tons = 5.1% of total

Fritz Frauenheim
19 ships sunk and damaged, 78853 tons
1 ship sunk [mine], 605 tons = 0.8% of total

Friedrich Markworth
13 ships sunk and damaged, 74067 tons
2 ships sunk [mine], 64 tons = 0.09% of total

Otto Schuhart
13 ships sunk, 89777 tons
2 ships sunk [mine], 5222 tons = 5.8% of total

Günter Kuhnke
13 ships sunk and damaged, 56272 tons
1 ships sunk (total loss) [mine], 9577 tons = 17.0% of total

Fritz-Julius Lemp and Günter Kuhnke are clearly the two outliers; the other eight would receive fairly modest increases to their tonnage scores. Keep in mind, also, that the numbers above represent just 10 out of 84 captains top-scoring captains. These figures make me more confident that we could include mine tonnage without upsetting the skill level calculations. We would merely assume—a reasonable assumption, I think, given our sources—that the number of ships sunk by mines is a reflection of the commander's skill level.

A disclaimer: if this talk about minelaying is a silly distraction, then feel free to tell me as much. I promise not to be offended :O:

[gap]

Nice work :up: I only have one very minor suggestion: we might want to change the modifier for "suffered attack" from -2 to -1. Even though the time delay is set to 1 day, in the mid- to late-war U-boats were attacked so often that it might be imprudent to penalize them so harshly.

No problem. Anyway my -2 handicap setting was a bit redundant, since according to what we had previously agreed (doctrine settings), boats under attack wouldn't be available for supporting our attacks anyway. By the way, is it okay a -1 handicap for the day following enemy attacks?

Something I forgot to note is that handicap and bonuses will be cumulative, but I will set a formula cutting off results which will exceed 2 levels respective to the base veterancy level.

One last thing: what do you think of the long patrol/very long patrols handicap settings suggested by me: they will be triggered by two conditions: days on patrol exceeding a fixed number of weeks (respectively 6 and 12), and days on patrol exceeding a percentage of the total patrol lenght (respectively 50 and 75%). In order to trigger the handicap, both conditions need to be true. The percent condition is meant for making sure that crews won't get fatigued too early during long patrols; the fixed days condition is meant for making sure that crews won't get fatigued during too short patrols. Are you okay with this system, and with the numbers I have set?


Indeed, you did a great job with the tonnage calculation, and I wouldn't want to obviate that work. I checked the personnel records for all U-boat captains scoring above 50,000 tons. To my surprise, I found that there were only ten captains who stood to benefit from including mine tonnage (out of the 84 aces). Here is a breakdown of the ten captains who sunk vessels with their mines:

Okay :up:

As we are at it, should we include in our calculations also captured vessels? This would greatly semplificate the work of data collectors :yep:


A disclaimer: if this talk about minelaying is a silly distraction, then feel free to tell me as much. I promise not to be offended :O:

Not at all keyser :haha:

however I hate anti-personnel mines, I am simply too fond of naval mines :D

:help:

[keysersoze]

By the way, is it okay a -1 handicap for the day following enemy attacks?


Yes, I think this is okay, as it would represent lingering morale effects of frequent air attacks. To be clear, are we talking about both destroyer and air attacks?


Something I forgot to note is that handicap and bonuses will be cumulative, but I will set a formula cutting off results which will exceed 2 levels respective to the base veterancy level.


:up:


One last thing: what do you think of the long patrol/very long patrols handicap settings suggested by me: they will be triggered by two conditions: days on patrol exceeding a fixed number of weeks (respectively 6 and 12), and days on patrol exceeding a percentage of the total patrol lenght (respectively 50 and 75%). In order to trigger the handicap, both conditions need to be true. The percent condition is meant for making sure that crews won't get fatigued too early during long patrols; the fixed days condition is meant for making sure that crews won't get fatigued during too short patrols. Are you okay with this system, and with the numbers I have set?


I like your system, and I can see the wisdom of having two separate conditions. I initially thought there might be a need to include different settings for Type II, Type VII, and Type IX boats to provide for patrols like this (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4103.html), but your "percentage of total patrol length" condition should take care of the problem of extremely long patrols.


As we are at it, should we include in our calculations also captured vessels? This would greatly semplificate the work of data collectors :yep:


Yes, I agree with including captured vessels in the calculation :up:


however I hate anti-personnel mines, I am simply too fond of naval mines :D
:help:

I feel the same way—it also helps that our naval mines are the virtual kind :O:

[gap]

Yes, I think this is okay, as it would represent lingering morale effects of frequent air attacks. To be clear, are we talking about both destroyer and air attacks?

yes, should we discriminate among them? :hmm2:


I like your system, and I can see the wisdom of having two separate conditions. I initially thought there might be a need to include different settings for Type II, Type VII, and Type IX boats to provide for patrols like this (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4103.html), but your "percentage of total patrol length" condition should take care of the problem of extremely long patrols.

yep, I had your suggestion in mind when I got the idea of the percent triggering conditions. Besides the system per se, are the numbers I have set okay? Figures in my example are just the first numbers that came to my mind...


Yes, I agree with including captured vessels in the calculation :up:

okay :up:


I feel the same way—it also helps that our naval mines are the virtual kind :O:

exactly! :D

[keysersoze]

yes, should we discriminate among them? :hmm2:


Based on anecdotal evidence, destroyer attacks would probably had a much greater impact on crew morale since they often entailed many hours of cat-and-mouse evasion and sustained depth charge attacks. However, I don't think there's a very compelling reason to include this level of complexity. You've added enough nuances already :yep:


yep, I had your suggestion in mind when I got the idea of the percent triggering conditions. Besides the system per se, are the numbers I have set okay? Figures in my example are just the first numbers that came to my mind...


I think your numbers are about right. I can only recall one concrete statement about morale/efficiency on long patrols: in Jon F. White's book about milk cows, he mentions that the Kriegsmarine considered two months to be the maximum amount of time a U-boat crew could remain on patrol without a serious drop in crew efficiency (p. 51). With that in mind, six weeks seems a reasonable place to trigger the start of the "long patrol" penalty.

[gap]

Based on anecdotal evidence, destroyer attacks would probably had a much greater impact on crew morale since they often entailed many hours of cat-and-mouse evasion and sustained depth charge attacks. However, I don't think there's a very compelling reason to include this level of complexity. You've added enough nuances already :yep:

Maybe we can assign naval attacks a 3 days long -1 penalty (including the day of the attack), instead of 2 days. What do you think? :hmmm:



I think your numbers are about right. I can only recall one concrete statement about morale/efficiency on long patrols: in Jon F. White's book about milk cows, he mentions that the Kriegsmarine considered two months to be the maximum amount of time a U-boat crew could remain on patrol without a serious drop in crew efficiency (p. 51). With that in mind, six weeks seems a reasonable place to trigger the start of the "long patrol" penalty.

:up:

[keysersoze]

Maybe we can assign naval attacks a 3 days long -1 penalty (including the day of the attack), instead of 2 days. What do you think? :hmmm:


That's a good solution. As a totally unsophisticated Excel user, I'm amazed by the level of complexity you are able to code into the spreadsheet. As long as it's not too burdensome, separate air and naval attacks would be nice feature :up:

[gap]

That's a good solution. As a totally unsophisticated Excel user, I'm amazed by the level of complexity you are able to code into the spreadsheet. As long as it's not too burdensome, separate air and naval attacks would be nice feature :up:

If you know what you can expect from it, Excel is a neat and fairly user friendly tool. Some programming rudiments come handy for using it, especially if you want to work with macros and custom-made functions. But most of the time they are not required, as the program comes with a good set of basic functions to play with. All in all, I think that the only skills required for exploiting its potential, are a degree mathematical inclination and a bit of imagination.

Tomorrow I will start working on the new features. Time allowing, I hope to release the new version shortly :up:

[keysersoze]

If you know what you can expect from it, Excel is a neat and fairly user friendly tool. Some programming rudiments come handy for using it, especially if you want to work with macros and custom-made functions. But most of the time they are not required, as the program comes with a good set of basic functions to play with. All in all, I think that the only skills required for exploiting its potential, are a degree mathematical inclination and a bit of imagination.

Tomorrow I will start working on the new features. Time allowing, I hope to release the new version shortly :up:

We eagerly await your next masterpiece. Hopefully it will have a longer life than poor v2 :)

[LemonA]

from BdU to All Stations of the Community project

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[gap]

from BdU to All Stations of the Community project

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Msg received.

My part of work almost ready. Can be finalized anytime if requested.
Passing on your request of information to Capt. Keysersoze :salute:

[keysersoze]

Everybody,

First of all, I need to apologize for my absence these past few months. My life has been consumed with finishing my thesis, trying to get it published, and trying to survive the last quarter of graduate school while searching for jobs. I never meant to disappear so completely; real life sometimes has a way of intruding though. Even so, I should have communicated my situation to the group. For my failure to do so, I apologize.

The good news is that, as of last week, I've officially graduated. In the interim, I've been moving from Chicago back home while I search for jobs. At the moment, I don't have a stable internet connection (I'm writing this from the library), but that should change shortly.

As for the project, I have every intention of continuing with gap's excellent ideas. I'm hesitant to offer a firm timetable just now, as many things could change as I start the job interview process. I can say, though, that my life will stabilize considerably in the next 2-3 weeks. Once I complete this damnable move, I'll be back in regular communication.

Apologies again,
keysersoze

[gap]

You don't have to apologize Daniel: everyone got his personal life. Whenever possible, we will resume working on this project. In the meanwhile let me express my warmest and most sincere congratulations for your graduation. :know: :salute: