Real Diving Mod

[Troutish]

Has anyone here shown any interest in making a mod that would allow for realistic diving, trim and depth control? I know - the "Captain" that we play as would just give orders for setting depth and the crew would do the rest, but since we have a "real navigation" mod (which is lots of fun btw), why not think about allowing greater control, for those who want it, over diving?

If you have read anything about uboats you would know that it can be very challenging to control boat depth and trim under different conditions. My question is, could that be abstracted and simplified in a way that would make the game more fun?

In Herbert Werner's "Iron Coffins" he talks about a Chief who could simply not get the hang of depth control, and how he and others had to step in for the safety of the boat. There were also times when changes in temperature, salinity, or bomb and depth charge pressure caused to boat to fall or rise out of control. I think there is PLENTY of opportunity here to introduce greater challenge to the sim.

Im thinking we could have a UI similar looking to the TDC, which would abstract some of the basic depth control functions: filling and blowing various balast and trim tanks, using compressed air or electric pumps for different functions, a number of gauges and meters to monitor things.

BTW, these choices when submerged could all effect the sound signature of the boat when trying to run quiet. They could also be damageable.

anyhow- it would be quite a modding challenge but with high rewards. I think one of the goals would be to make the game fun and playable WITHOUT combat (similar to microsoft flight sim)

So if you doubt the fun factor here, think about all the flight sim wonks who love doing full ramp starts of their aircraft; clicking buttons, throwing switches; controlling EVERY part of the aircraft. Would a Uboat be any different?

Trout

[Targor Avelany]

I believe there were talks about it a while back, but nobody actually started anything on it.

It seemed like not many were interested or none of the modders were interested in digging into it.

[volodya61]

So if you doubt the fun factor here, think about all the flight sim wonks who love doing full ramp starts of their aircraft; clicking buttons, throwing switches; controlling EVERY part of the aircraft. Would a Uboat be any different?

On the plane, especially on the WWII aircraft, you are only one who can do this job and control all these things..
On the U-boat you are the Captain and you have a subordinate crew, 50 or so people, that do all this work..

just IMO..

[Troutish]

True.....

and yet some people like to develop the attack plot and enter data in to the TDC.

some people like to do their own navigation

some people like to use the deck and flak guns

These are all abstracted in the game because, as you say, there were crews to do that. I'm just wondering what other tasks could be made fun and challenging - diving and depth control may be candiate.

The way we play this and other subsims is based on Dev choices about which aspects of submarine operations could be considered enteraining. Aiming and firing torpedoes is obviously at the top of the list.

Now you certainly would not want to be messing around with depth keeping while you are getting ready to shoot your torps, but it could be very exciting controlling depth QUIETLY while under DC attack, or when crash diving, ESPECIALLY if the boat is damaged.

There were times when Uboat captains did not just sit back and let the chief command or do all this.


On the plane, especially on the WWII aircraft, you are only one who can do this job and control all these things..
On the U-boat you are the Captain and you have a subordinate crew, 50 or so people, that do all this work..

just IMO..

[volodya61]

and yet some people like to develop the attack plot and enter data in to the TDC.
some people like to do their own navigation
..........

There were times when Uboat captains did not just sit back and let the chief command or do all this.

aiming and launching torpedoes, navigation were the responsibilities of the Captain...
dive planes and ballast tanks control was not the responsibility of the Captain.. it was responsibility of the crew..

again IMO..

[Targor Avelany]

I think the conversation above is the exact reason why the mod hasn't been even attempted yet :)

just saying

[Troutish]

The captain is responsible for everything, and needs to know how to do it all, if only to monitor the performance of the crew :03:
(btw, the captain did not always develop the attack plot or shoot the torps, this too could be delegated because it was so distracting from looking after the positioning and safety of the boat)

You could tie a mod like this, or even real navigation, to crew performance. if the captain occasionally does these tasks, the crew learn from him and his example. their abilities increase as does morale. Just a thought.

That way you dont ALWAYS have to look after them, but if you do them a few times on patrol, crew performance improves.

I any event, its pretty clear that there were serious skills involved in achieving and maintaining desired depth. There were choices about how much to flood which tanks, how much angle on the planes, how much speed, and how to do it all with changing environmental conditions.

It get the impression it was analagous to hovering a helicopter, you never really get things exactly as you would want them. Check out what was involved in diving the boats...

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DivingRegulations.htm


aiming and launching torpedoes, navigation were the responsibilities of the Captain...
dive planes and ballast tanks control was not the responsibility of the Captain.. it was responsibility of the crew..

again IMO..

[keysersoze]

Manual dive planes, ballast tanks, etc. would be nice additions, if someone took the time to figure out how to implement them. But, for the reasons mentioned by Volodya and others, I'm not sure I would use them very much beyond the initial "wow" factor.

One thing that would be highly useful, though, is more realistic AI use of the dive planes to control depth. When submerging, the boat frequently dives at a steep angle, then blows ballast about ten meters above the desired depth to stop the descent. I'm not sure whether DDs can hear this, but I always cringe when the LI blows the tanks, to make no mention of the waste of compressed air.

As far as I know, it was standard procedure to use the dive planes to provide "lift," much like the wings of an aircraft, instead of haphazardly blowing ballast every time a change in depth was requested.

[gap]

aiming and launching torpedoes, navigation were the responsibilities of the Captain...
dive planes and ballast tanks control was not the responsibility of the Captain.. it was responsibility of the crew..

again IMO..

Volodya, what trootish is trying to say is that U-boat Captains didn't actually carry out by themselves many of the tasks involved by their responsibilities; for instance there was a crewman trained to enter data in to the TDC, plotting a course would have been care of Navigation and Execitive Officers, and if required, someone else would have plotted target's course while the Captain was busy giving orders, following the target on the scope and supervising other's work. On the other hand, there were probably few tasks that would have been carried out principally or exclusively by the Captain, one of them being the use of periscopes.

That being said, I have to admit that I am quite satisfied with our current tasks, as modelled in SH5, though I wouldn't disdain being set free to operate dive planes and rudder controls, as far as it is made optional. Imo this wouldn't reduce the realism, since in RL no one could have prevented the Captain from messing with them, if he just wanted to.

Talking on why this feature wasn't yet taken into consideration, I think the answer is quite easy. Provided that game's architecture allows it, as far as I know only TDW, DrJones or Reaper7 would have the skills required for implementing manual depth controls.

[volodya61]

I think that the dispute doesn't make any sense.. all I said is just my opinion..
if you want to manually turn the dive planes or ballast tanks just do it..

[gap]

I think that the dispute doesn't make any sense.. all I said is just my opinion..
if you want to manually turn the dive planes or ballast tanks just do it..

How? I don't see the controls... :doh: :D

[volodya61]

How? I don't see the controls... :doh: :D

It was not answer on your post :D.. it was answer on Troutish's post.. but my slow web connection.. :nope:

If seriously, we have the independent engine controls now.. thanks TDW.. but how many players are really using this feature? excluding the initial "wow" factor as Keysersoze mentioned?

BTW great movie - The Usual Suspects :up:

[gap]

It was not answer on your post :D.. it was answer on Troutish's post.. but my slow web connection.. :nope:

If seriously, we have the independent engine controls now.. thanks TDW.. but how many players are really using this feature? excluding the initial "wow" factor as Keysersoze mentioned?

Agree,

if it was on me implementing it, I would gladly take it into consideration if it was quickly feasible; otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time on it :salute:

BTW great movie - The Usual Suspects :up:

yep, nice one :up:

[keysersoze]

BTW great movie - The Usual Suspects :up:

I was wondering if anyone would catch the reference... :03:

Agree,
if it was on me implementing it, I would gladly take it into consideration if it was quickly feasible; otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time on it :salute:


This is pretty much how I feel. Features like this would only be useful if they could be done easily, or if they could be used in support of a larger project. For example: maybe one day independent engine control could be used to simulate realistic battery recharging, where the boat ran both motors with a single diesel engine to increase range. Right now, though, it's a neat feature but not a terribly useful one. Just my opinion though.

[Targor Avelany]

I was wondering if anyone would catch the reference... :03:



This is pretty much how I feel. Features like this would only be useful if they could be done easily, or if they could be used in support of a larger project. For example: maybe one day independent engine control could be used to simulate realistic battery recharging, where the boat ran both motors with a single diesel engine to increase range. Right now, though, it's a neat feature but not a terribly useful one. Just my opinion though.

well, I would love to use independent engine controls to achieve quieter movement under water to get away from escorts (if I would actually play, lol). I believe, though, that this patch is not polished (unless I missed something).

[keysersoze]

well, I would love to use independent engine controls to achieve quieter movement under water to get away from escorts (if I would actually play, lol). I believe, though, that this patch is not polished (unless I missed something).

I completely agree. I meant that these features could be very useful, but only if they are refined and integrated into other game features. I was reflecting gap's point that, outside of a few highly talented modders, not many have the skill to do such a thing. Even if it was done, I'm not sure the effort would be worth the reward.

[Troutish]

There are a number of possible benefits of a mod like this,

1) for people who use it, maniupating the controls and making the choices involved in controlling the sub would be fun and challenging. there are multiple tanks to choose from, different flood and vent times, water and fuel amounts that have to be pumped around, choices about using pumps or compressed air to empty tanks. there are countless meters and gauges, different ways to use batteries to achieve all this and all of them effect the sound signature of the boat. being able to dive well and properly would also have an effect on morale. Executing a crash dive quickly should be a Major challenge for the captain who uses this mod. and when different components are damaged it would take considerable skill and judgement to set and maintain depth.

2) the captain's ability to change and maintain desired depth under a variety of circumstances could be partly mapped to the chief's ability. you might start out with a chief who has difficulties, and then be able to improve his performance as you take over from time to time.

3) there are times in this sim where the captain does not actually have much to do. diving after a torpedo attack, before the escorts are on top of you for example. Or lying on the bottom when you want to just sit and listen for a while. Uboats were supposed to do a daily trim dive while on patrol - that would be fun to do rather than just using TC on long voyages.

A simple version of this mod would just let you open and close valves and vents on the balast tanks, monitor their water levels, and set the angle on the dive planes

[Troutish]

Let me use the flight sim analogy again.

Ive used combat flight sims for as long as they have been around, and when MSFT flight sim came out i thought it was a joke. why would you want to fly an airliner when you could be flying a fighter jet and engaging in dog-fights??! why would you want to tune your own radio and nav aids, or select which fuel tanks to feed which engines? WHy would you want to monitor engine guages - aint that the copilots job?

to my surpise, once i tried flying a fully modded jet, i found i didnt always NEED to have people to shoot at. understanding and properly using all the controls, especially in bad weather and difficult terrain was fun and challening. So today, you can fly DCS's A10 and have your hands full without seeing or firing upon an enemy (some people actually fly the sim only doing shuttle flights).

None of this would have been possible or imaginable if modders had not set the goal of FULLY modding some aircraft so that critical systems were not just there for cockpit decoration, but because the sim pilot would use them.

The fact that a submarine has 50 guys to do the captain's bidding, whereas a jetliner has only 3 in the cockpit is irrelevant. There is FUN to be had in controlling a more mechanically modeled submarine, and there is nothing unrealistic about a uboat captain - especially a veteran - wanting to occasionally do these tasks.

[LemonA]

I agree. Would be a awesome thing to have fully control over every flooding tanks.