Friendly ships and Sonar and Submarines

[V13dweller]

Are the Italian and German Destroyers armed with Sonar? Because in a mission I created, the friendly ships don't seem to track or attempt to destroy the allies U-class submarine once they dive.
The ships seem to only attack on the surface.
And the all submarines I spawn in the editor, as soon as they see an enemy ship, they dive and crash into the seafloor and just grind againts it in a direction I have not plotted for them, any idea's why?
The Submarines also surface randomly, then get sunk, they also defy the course set by them.

[TheDarkWraith]

Are the Italian and German Destroyers armed with Sonar? Because in a mission I created, the friendly ships don't seem to track or attempt to destroy the allies U-class submarine once they dive.
The ships seem to only attack on the surface.
And the all submarines I spawn in the editor, as soon as they see an enemy ship, they dive and crash into the seafloor and just grind againts it in a direction I have not plotted for them, any idea's why?
The Submarines also surface randomly, then get sunk, they also defy the course set by them.

Let me guess you have no AI mod installed correct? Install my IRAI mod :yep: Once a unit detects an enemy it no longer follows waypoints (unless it's AI script explicity states for it to)

[V13dweller]

Thank you for your input, I will try your mod right away :).

[TheDarkWraith]

Thank you for your input, I will try your mod right away :).

I''ll warn you now that it completely changes the AI. Life will not be easy anymore :D

[V13dweller]

Also, are the enemy and friendly AI subs capable of using their deck guns?

[TheDarkWraith]

Also, are the enemy and friendly AI subs capable of using their deck guns?

I have not been able to get any of the AI subs to fire their deck guns :wah:

[V13dweller]

And can the Montecuccoli cruiser use the single depth charge rack it has, and does it have a sonar to make use of this rack?

[TheDarkWraith]

And can the Montecuccoli cruiser use the single depth charge rack it has, and does it have a sonar to make use of this rack?

If a unit has DCs it will use them. In order to see if a unit has some kind of sensor you need to open it's .sns file found in \data\Sea\unit name. To see what equipment it has (guns, etc.) open up the .eqp file. These can be opened with Notepad.

[gap]

Also, are the enemy and friendly AI subs capable of using their deck guns?

I have not been able to get any of the AI subs to fire their deck guns :wah:

I have been looking into the one deckgun friendly and enemy subs are equipped with (AI_Deck_Gun_GE88mm), and I have to say that it got the same gun_anim settings as the human playable guns that we were discussing yesterday in the other thread, TDW.

Thinking out loud, two possible fixes come to my mind...

- trying the same fix suggested by you yesterday
- moving the gun into the Library/ShipParts folder, and changing accordingly the path to the gun in sub's eqp file.

But before any other test, I would try equipping a surface unit with this gun, and see if by any chance the problem is in sub AI routines rather than in the gun itself :yep:

[Trevally.]

TheBeast was testing this where he put other guns on AI uboats.
They still did not fire

[gap]

TheBeast was testing this where he put other guns on AI uboats.
They still did not fire

...in other words the problem has to be dealed with IRAI.

Thank you for making it clear Trevally, and my regards to TheBeast for his neat conclusion :up:

[Trevally.]

...in other words the problem has to be dealed with IRAI.

Thank you for making it clear Trevally, and my regards to TheBeast for his neat conclusion :up:

What a pity - I have just a week ago cleared out my inbox.:nope:
It had the whole discussion, test files and missions where it was all tested:arrgh!:

[gap]

What a pity - I have just a week ago cleared out my inbox.:nope:
It had the whole discussion, test files and missions where it was all tested:arrgh!:

Don't worry Trevally, what matters is the lesson we have learned from those tests. If needed, test missions and files can be redone in a matter of minutes :)

[V13dweller]

I made a test for the enemy submarines and the Friendly Destroyers, The Friendly destroyers are useless when it come to depth charges, they barely use them, probably once in the test, they just circle around where the subs are underwater, and just wait for them to surface.
Is this meant to happen?

[Gaugeforever]

Depth charges were more of a harassing tool. You had to get really lucky to actually get a kill with one.

Boat commanders would use them sparingly to try to harass the crew into surfacing.

Otherwise, if you can ping away with active sonar, it's really only a matter of time before they have to come up.

Having said that, I'm not sure if IRAI is just trying to be hyper real in your situation, or if it is actually a bug.

[gap]

I made a test for the enemy submarines and the Friendly Destroyers, The Friendly destroyers are useless when it come to depth charges, they barely use them, probably once in the test, they just circle around where the subs are underwater, and just wait for them to surface.
Is this meant to happen?

Was this with IRAI enabled? What was mission's date? What veterancy level were the friendly destroyers set to? :hmm2:

[Trevally.]

what depth was the water

[V13dweller]

The depth was about 40 meters and IRAI was enabled. The date was 1942 1st of December, and the crews of both the subs and ships were veteran.

[Trevally.]

Try again in deeper water - im sure you will see some DCing

[V13dweller]

Also, do the ship compensate for the depth charge thrower? because the Soldati destroyer only has these throwers and no racks to drop them.
the destroyer just passes over the sub with it's rack no scoring a hit, because it has no racks.

[gap]

Also, do the ship compensate for the depth charge thrower? because the Soldati destroyer only has these throwers and no racks to drop them.
the destroyer just passes over the sub with it's rack no scoring a hit, because it has no racks.

As per stock settings, from 1 Jan 1938 to 31 May 1941 the Soldati destroyer is equipped with two broken K-gun projectors. Try installing Cerberus62 Corrected Depth Charge Projector (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1837160#post1837160) which replaces them with similar (yet working) projectors ;)

P.S: download link in the last post

[V13dweller]

Thanks gap, Ill install this mod right away and see if if works.

[gap]

Thanks gap, Ill install this mod right away and see if if works.

Keep us informed :up:

[V13dweller]

I just did another shallow water test with the K gun fix, and the Soldati seems to be happy to discharge ordinance with, hmm, relatively poor accuracy. :hmm2:

I will run a deep water test soon, to see if the German Destroyer will actually make some attempts to help.

[V13dweller]

OK, after the deep water test, it yielded the same results, bearly any action was taken, the German destroyers made no attempt, they just performed what looked like an attack pattern, but they dropped no depth charges, I am beginning to think that the German and Italian destroyers either only have a passive hydrophone or that they are not programmed properly. :shifty:


From what I have seen the German Destroyers just stop and idle when an enemy is near.

Even the Montecuccoli Light Cruiser made more attempts than the German Destroyer, They Cruiser made a single pass, it was interesting to see a Cruiser depth charge a submarine though :D
Generally, they seem to avoid the submarines, but once enough destroyers were sunk it decided to come in, once, then it fled, to hang around the out side of the group.

[gap]

I just did another shallow water test with the K gun fix, and the Soldati seems to be happy to discharge ordinance with, hmm, relatively poor accuracy. :hmm2:

I will run a deep water test soon, to see if the German Destroyer will actually make some attempts to help.

:up:

OK, after the deep water test, it yielded the same results...

your tests are very useful for tracking down broken equipments, V13dweller, please keep them on. :up:

Nontheless, in order to undertand what is going on, we need for more information:

what date your last test mission was set to? And what about destroyer's veterancy levels? Have you update IRAI to the latest version?

Both Soldati Class and Type 1934A destroyers are equipped with active sonar and radar, but they use different models with different specs depending on date, and radars are absent till 1940-41 :yep:

[V13dweller]

The year was 1941 and the date was December 1st, and I only downloaded IRAI a few weeks ago, so I expect they have not released a new version yet.

[Navuhodonosor]

The year was 1941 and the date was December 1st, and I only downloaded IRAI a few weeks ago, so I expect they have not released a new version yet.

:hmmm: This is the last (http://www.mediafire.com/?www1duv116o9xj1) and younger then few weeks. :salute:

[V13dweller]

Oh, thanks Navuhodonosor (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=290452) :D

[V13dweller]

Ok, after the deep water test with the newest version of IRAI the German destroyers are now using their depth charges, albeit with the shockingly bad accuracy as the Italians before.

And for some reason the British subs fire ALL ten of their torpedoes at once!
SO they run out without a hit in most cases.:huh:

[V13dweller]

After an hour and fifty three minutes, it was the same chase and depth charge with appalling accuracy, with no British losses.
But a German and an Italian Cruiser had a collision and sunk with all hands lost. (No lifeboats)

[Navuhodonosor]

Oh, thanks Navuhodonosor (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=290452) :D

Glad I helped:03:

[gap]

The year was 1941 and the date was December 1st

Soldati class destroyers are equipped with better SONAR starting from 1 Sep 1943 (just before they switch to neutral) and better RADAR device since 1 Jan 1944 when they are on the allied side:


; SONAR

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type123A
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19430901

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type144A
StartDate=19430901
EndDate=19451231

; RADAR

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19410601

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19410601
EndDate=19440101

[Sensor 8]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type271
StartDate=19440101
EndDate=19451231

As for Type 34 German destroyers, dates are 1 Jun 1943 for improved SONAR, 1 Sep 1942 for improved RADAR and 1 Mar 1943 for an even better RADAR device. Also note that these destroyers are equipped with two identical RADAR's, though I am not sure how this fact would affect their hunting abilities:

; SONAR

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type123A
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400601

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type128A
StartDate=19400601
EndDate=19430601

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type147A
StartDate=19430601
EndDate=19451231

; 1ST RADAR

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400901

[Sensor 8]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19400901
EndDate=19420901

[Sensor 9]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type271
StartDate=19420901
EndDate=19430301

[Sensor 10]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type273
StartDate=19430301
EndDate=19451231

; 2ND RADAR

[Sensor 11]
NodeName=R02
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400901

[Sensor 12]
NodeName=R02
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19400901
EndDate=19420901

[Sensor 13]
NodeName=R02
LinkName=Type271
StartDate=19420901
EndDate=19430301

[Sensor 14]
NodeName=R02
LinkName=Type273
StartDate=19430301
EndDate=19451231

I suggest you to play with mission dates and see how improved sensors will affect destroyer's depthcharging accuracy :up:

and I only downloaded IRAI a few weeks ago, so I expect they have not released a new version yet.

:hmmm: This is the last (http://www.mediafire.com/?www1duv116o9xj1) and younger then few weeks. :salute:

I had already pointed you to the right IRAI version, here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1998229&postcount=202), but probably you missed my post ;)

Ok, after the deep water test with the newest version of IRAI the German destroyers are now using their depth charges, albeit with the shockingly bad accuracy as the Italians before.

After an hour and fifty three minutes, it was the same chase and depth charge with appalling accuracy, with no British losses.

Letest IRAI revisions gave Allied destroyers intelligent and realistic strategies, but without the pinpointing accuracy of earlier versions. Now anti-submarine accuracy relies much more on crew veterancy levels, crew fatigue and different sensor's effectiveness, hence making enemies increasingly dangerous as the war goes on. In general, testing reports by many IRAI users have been favourable to enthousiastic. I don't see any reason why IRAI should use different settings for enemy and friendly units. In other words, I am sure that the lack of accuracy you are reporting is to be blamed to their early war poor sensors. As I suggested before, try changing mission dates :yep:

But a German and an Italian Cruiser had a collision and sunk with all hands lost. (No lifeboats)

This is a known problem: SH5 collisions detection is not up to standard :-?

And for some reason the British subs fire ALL ten of their torpedoes at once!
SO they run out without a hit in most cases.:huh:

IRAI improves a lot AI sub strategies within the strict limits imposed by the game (the same can be said about planes). Your test could demonstrate that it is still not perfect, but I ignore wether there is still space for some improvement by TDW, or not.

[V13dweller]

OK, I knocked up the difficulty to Elite of both the subs and ships, the date was 1st of September 1943, and it seems the that German Destroyers are making very good and precise attacks yielding good results.
I am going to confirm any good news on the Soldati, I am yet to see it accurately attack a submarine.

[gap]

OK, I knocked up the difficulty to Elite of both the subs and ships, the date was 1st of September 1943, and it seems the that German Destroyers are making very good and precise attacks yielding good results.

:up:

did the new date setting change anything with AI sub's strategies?

I am going to confirm any good news on the Soldati, I am yet to see it accurately attack a submarine.

Keep us informed ;)

[V13dweller]

I am noticing problems with IRAI, it seems to have taken away the destroyers ability to attack head on, right over the submarine, making most depth charge attempts useless, I have even noticed this in the story.
I do believe that the year has affect the ships ability find submarines, the German type 1934 is making attempts to bomb the enemy subs, it proves more fruitful than the soldati's attempts.

Without IRAI, the ships go head on and usually yield many hits (Speaking as the British Subs on me) It seems their tracking systems are more adept than the German and Italian destroyers in the early war time frame, but even with IRAI, the British ships never seem to land a single hit on me, I even have enough time to zig zag until I reach deeper waters to dive.:hmm2:

I believe that the dates may have made the AI subs more adept at tracking the enemy ships (Including my submarine) but they still fire off all ten torpedoes (I know this is unrealistic) at once, in a line and if they miss, they just keep trying to attack, but with no ammunition.

[gap]

I am noticing problems with IRAI, it seems to have taken away the destroyers ability to attack head on, right over the submarine, making most depth charge attempts useless, I have even noticed this in the story.
I do believe that the year has affect the ships ability find submarines, the German type 1934 is making attempts to bomb the enemy subs, it proves more fruitful than the soldati's attempts.

Without IRAI, the ships go head on and usually yield many hits (Speaking as the British Subs on me) It seems their tracking systems are more adept than the German and Italian destroyers in the early war time frame, but even with IRAI, the British ships never seem to land a single hit on me, I even have enough time to zig zag until I reach deeper waters to dive.:hmm2:

I believe that the dates may have made the AI subs more adept at tracking the enemy ships (Including my submarine) but they still fire off all ten torpedoes (I know this is unrealistic) at once, in a line and if they miss, they just keep trying to attack, but with no ammunition.

hmmm if you think you have found any flaw in IRAI, you should report it to TDW :hmm2:

[V13dweller]

Also, it seems once the Soldati destroyer fires it's starshells, it's guns no longer track the enemy, and then it just gets sunk by other warships.:06: For example, the Admiral Hipper cruiser fires its guns to launch starshells, then guns stay in the upward position and not track enemies.
I also noticed this on all the other ships that fire star shells.
And do AI subs have Fuel/Battery limits?

[V13dweller]

I just made another test, but it was German Submarines versing the Ark Royal Fleet carrier at it's maximum speed, just to see what happened, and the German Submarines, like the British ones, the submarines fired all their torpedoes at once, then just fled from the scene.
I am not sure why they do this, they fire all their torpedoes without reloading, they just come out in a continuous stream.

[V13dweller]

I just ran another test, the date was 1943, 1st of September so the Italian destroyers had their best Sonar, and yet again, there was little no no action, it was just a cat and mouse chase that would not end.
I had the destroyers set to Veteran, and the Submarines set to Veteran.
But their was little action.

[Trevally.]

You should realy post your missions so that other can see what you are doing. Otherwise - this info is hard to understand:hmmm:

[V13dweller]

Here is my mission to look at.
http://rapidshare.com/files/2113064412/Submarine%20Test.misge

[Trevally.]

Here is my mission to look at.
http://rapidshare.com/files/2113064412/Submarine%20Test.misge



Download permission denied by uploader. (0b67c2f5)


can you check please:up:

[V13dweller]

What do I do to fix this? I don't upload often.

Would giving you the link again work?
https://rapidshare.com/files/2113064412/Submarine%20Test.misge

[gap]

What do I do to fix this? I don't upload often.

recently I had the same problem uploading files to rapidshare. Try using mediafire instead ;)

[V13dweller]

Ill make a Media Fire account and re upload soon.

[Trevally.]

What do I do to fix this? I don't upload often.

Would giving you the link again work?
https://rapidshare.com/files/2113064412/Submarine%20Test.misge

Not sure - it could be set as for your use only and not to share:hmmm:

I use 4sync (https://www.4sync.com)
It is easy (drop into folder and the right click and "get link") to use.
Your files are safe from delete for 6months after each log in:woot:

[gap]

Also, it seems once the Soldati destroyer fires it's starshells, it's guns no longer track the enemy, and then it just gets sunk by other warships.:06: For example, the Admiral Hipper cruiser fires its guns to launch starshells, then guns stay in the upward position and not track enemies.
I also noticed this on all the other ships that fire star shells.

Interesting finding. I will investigate further on it. A quick fix would be removing starshells from those guns, but I want to see what is going on with them.

By the way: are you using Fx update?

And do AI subs have Fuel/Battery limits?

They should. There are settings for these limitations though I have never tested if thy are applied in game

I just made another test, but it was German Submarines versing the Ark Royal Fleet carrier at it's maximum speed, just to see what happened, and the German Submarines, like the British ones, the submarines fired all their torpedoes at once, then just fled from the scene.
I am not sure why they do this, they fire all their torpedoes without reloading, they just come out in a continuous stream.

AI subs have torpedo tube reload times set in their sim files. I should look into them, and see what is going on :hmm2:

I just ran another test, the date was 1943, 1st of September so the Italian destroyers had their best Sonar, and yet again, there was little no no action, it was just a cat and mouse chase that would not end.
I had the destroyers set to Veteran, and the Submarines set to Veteran.
But their was little action.

Maybe their sensors are still too poor. Italian destroyers are set to use different SONAR and RADAR devices than the ones fitted during the same datesabord similar German units.
Moreover, despite the long range and the high power of its guns, Reggia Marina never distinguished herself for her effectiveness during the conflict. Paradoxically the only remarkable successes scored by it, were achieved by smaller units, as human torpedoes and S-boats :-?

[V13dweller]

Ok, here is the Mediafire Link. http://www.mediafire.com/?ccibm5gklnhk5ri

[gap]

Ok, here is the Mediafire Link. http://www.mediafire.com/?ccibm5gklnhk5ri

:up:

[V13dweller]

You will also see the Submarines on the surface for a very short amount of time, enough to show that the Soldati destroyer once firing the starshells, will no longer track the enemy.
Also, you will see the Type 1934 destroyers attack them and not fire starshells.

[gap]

You will also see the Submarines on the surface for a very short amount of time, enough to show that the Soldati destroyer once firing the starshells, will no longer track the enemy.
Also, you will see the Type 1934 destroyers attack them and not fire starshells.

Okay V13dweller, thank you for your report.:up:

I will take a note of it, and see what is wrong with starshells and AI torpedo tubes reloading times.

Today I want to see if I can bring the M42 Zwilling back in game ;)

[V13dweller]

I ran another test today regarding the Starshells.
I was in the Campaign mode, just doing the story, and I encountered an A class destroyer, I knew from my editor missions, once they fire their starshells, their main guns lock up and stop working, So i decided to surface near in, it started circling me, but it's main guns did not track me, they just stayed at their max elevation.
I tried to attack it with the deck gun, but I spent all my ammo on them ship, it seemed the destroyer did not get damaged by my attack.

[gap]

I ran another test today regarding the Starshells.
I was in the Campaign mode, just doing the story, and I encountered an A class destroyer, I knew from my editor missions, once they fire their starshells, their main guns lock up and stop working, So i decided to surface near in, it started circling me, but it's main guns did not track me, they just stayed at their max elevation.
I tried to attack it with the deck gun, but I spent all my ammo on them ship, it seemed the destroyer did not get damaged by my attack.

Today I have been pondering your report about Starshells. Are you using Fx Update? If no, can you please enable it and see what happens? If yes, can you run a test with no Fx Updates nor IRAI enabled?

I want to see if they make any difference :yep:

[V13dweller]

I disabled IRAI and the ships guns tracked the Submarines instead of pointing up and firing the starshells, however, they did not change course to follow the Submarines, once the submarine submerged, they just kept on going acting if the submarines did not exist, when they were really just lurking below.

[gap]

I disabled IRAI and the ships guns tracked the Submarines instead of pointing up and firing the starshells, however, they did not change course to follow the Submarines, once the submarine submerged, they just kept on going acting if the submarines did not exist, when they were really just lurking below.

Okay, thanks, now can you please run the same test with both IRAI and Fx Update (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1485167&postcount=1) enabled?

[V13dweller]

Even with the FX update, the ships still fire their starshells once then stop firing.

[V13dweller]

It would be nice if this could be fixed, because the Admiral Hipper is basically useless because it's main guns fire starshells and stop firing.
also, the Bismarck and Scharnhorst ships are not able to use their 15cm guns.