Three Israelis killed by Gaza rocket as violence escalates [Archive]

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Gerald

11-15-12, 10:32 AM

Violence between Israel and militants in Gaza escalates.

Three people have been killed as rockets fired from Gaza struck southern Israel, amid escalating violence.

They died when a four-storey building in the town of Kiryat Malachi was hit.

It marks the first Israeli fatalities since Israel killed Hamas' military chief in Gaza on Wednesday.

Fifteen Palestinians, mainly militants but also children, have reportedly been killed in the continuing Israeli operation. About 200 rockets have been fired into Israel, the army says.

It says that 145 of them were destroyed by Israel's Iron Dome interceptor system.

Hundreds of rockets were fired into Israel by militants in Gaza, and Israel carried out numerous air strikes as cross-border violence soared in recent weeks.

If the shooting doesn't stop, Israel will also target [Hamas leader] Ismail Haniyeh”

Israel Katz Israeli transport minister

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20336811

Note: 15 November 2012 Last updated at 15:07 GMT

Gerald

11-15-12, 11:33 AM

^
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2530/6415482064153459.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/6415482064153459.jpg/)

Gerald

11-15-12, 01:51 PM

Palestinian militants have attempted to hit Israel's largest city, Tel Aviv, with missiles fired from Gaza.

Air raid sirens sounded in the city for the first time in two decades and residents took cover.

But there were no casualties from the two rockets, which landed south of the city, in Rishon Lezion, and in the sea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20349280

Note: Update record, 15 November 2012 Last updated at 18:15 GMT

Gerald

11-15-12, 02:40 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20338593

Alex

11-15-12, 04:20 PM

I don't have a problem with the fact that you side with the victimizer-since-1948, Vendor - everyone's free to do what he likes, after all - but you would be welcome to post just a few pics of the Palestinians too, you know, here and there. :cool:

Gerald

11-15-12, 04:23 PM

Alex

11-15-12, 04:41 PM

Fine then. :salute:

Tribesman

11-15-12, 04:54 PM

Careful there Vendor, the Jew hater says you are being one sided:doh:

Though what makes the jew haters post funny is that he complains after you post pictures of both Israelis and Palestinians, must be that "special" vision people like that suffer from.

eddie

11-15-12, 06:02 PM

Here's a view from Gaza! C'ya Jabri!!:rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P6U2ZQ0EhN4

mapuc

11-15-12, 06:17 PM

Whoever you may support in this conflict, please do not forget the innocent people that alway suffer.

If you should wonder where I stand-I stand for Israel's right to defend them self

Markus

Gerald

11-15-12, 06:25 PM

In war and conflict, there are no winners only losers.

eddie

11-15-12, 06:33 PM

In war and conflict, there are no winners only losers.

I agree, innocent civilians always are the losers in any war.

Stealhead

11-15-12, 06:47 PM

If you are where the bullets and shrapnel are flying it is war that surrounds you.

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 06:47 PM

Well you certainly win....considering the number of posts you have here on your own thread :o

Stealhead

11-15-12, 06:51 PM

War of the middile of the road posts?:D

Gerald

11-15-12, 06:52 PM

We're talking about a possibly ongoing war breaks out....not post count!

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 06:56 PM

So on it goes :yawn:

Gerald

11-15-12, 06:58 PM

^You better go to sleep if you have been to the pub so you are awake tomorrow.

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 07:01 PM

^You better go to sleep if you have been to the pub so you are awake tomorrow.

Really....you know that to be fact?

TLAM Strike

11-15-12, 07:05 PM

but you would be welcome to post just a few pics of the Palestinians too, you know, here and there. :cool:

Let me help my man Vendor out:

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2412/terrorists2bin2b5star2b.jpg
Two freed Palestinian prisoners sit at the cafe of Al-Mashtal hotel, where they are staying, in the Gaza Strip October 19, 2011.

Al-Mashtal hotel:
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2830/almashtal007.jpg

I thought Gaza was one big Ghetto? Thats what the news says. That's the Middle East's version of a Ghetto?

This is what the actual ghetto looks like... (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nazareth_college/6914804478/in/set-72157629412360206) yea that's a few miles from my house.

Gerald

11-15-12, 07:06 PM

^Really....you know that to be fact?No, I do not know for sure, but I know that Thursday was a day when you have met your friends, but you can still get from your job, just like me who are on the job, :yep:

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 07:07 PM

Right on the nail :yep:

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 07:07 PM

^No, I do not know for sure, but I know that Thursday was a day when you have met your friends, but you can still get from your job, just like me who are on the job, :yep:

Enjoy...

Gerald

11-15-12, 07:11 PM

Enjoy... I do that, 3 hours from home :salute:

Jimbuna

11-15-12, 07:12 PM

The above post was in response to #20

Gerald

11-15-12, 07:15 PM

^:salute:

mapuc

11-15-12, 07:20 PM

Even the propaganda war is doing very well

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162130

Markus

Gerald

11-15-12, 07:36 PM

@B Thanks to ya!

Gerald

11-15-12, 07:41 PM

Even the propaganda war is doing very well

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162130

Markus Yes, propaganda is a heavy tool in a conflict/war.

Morts

11-15-12, 07:49 PM

Let me help my man Vendor out:

*Picture*

Al-Mashtal hotel:

*Picture*

I thought Gaza was one big Ghetto? Thats what the news says. That's the Middle East's version of a Ghetto?

This is what the actual ghetto looks like... (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nazareth_college/6914804478/in/set-72157629412360206) yea that's a few miles from my house.
Nice spin

Stealhead

11-15-12, 08:55 PM

Nice spin

Really?

http://hamaslovers1.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/visit-the-first-five-star-hotel-in-gaza/

http://www.almashtalarcmedhotels.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FePZ0y6aOos

Morts

11-15-12, 10:51 PM

Really?

http://hamaslovers1.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/visit-the-first-five-star-hotel-in-gaza/

http://www.almashtalarcmedhotels.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FePZ0y6aOos
I doubt that was the point of my post.
And please dont take it too seriously because i must have been horribly sleep deprived, since i dont remember posting it.

Tribesman

11-16-12, 01:41 AM

Morts, you should have put in a picture of a pimp wearing designer clothes, dripping in gold being driven in a rolls.
Then you too could write ghetto? what ghetto?:03:

Jimbuna

11-16-12, 06:52 AM

Here is an article by the BBC regarding the 'rocket' situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20343180

Skybird

11-16-12, 07:20 AM

It seems tzhe Israelis are preparing to go in on the ground. Hope the army is better prepared and their intel is better than was the case 2006. If they just rush in in haste and ill-prepared, by opinion I will not support that move. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

Jimbuna

11-16-12, 07:27 AM

I very much doubt either side want to see a ground invasion but that appears to be the eventual outcome if the rocket attacks continue.

Gerald

11-16-12, 08:28 AM

The BBC's Wyre Davies describes a "long and difficult night" in Gaza, saying "the ante has been stepped-up on both sides"

Egyptian leaders have promised to support Gaza against Israeli attacks, as violence escalated for a third day.

President Mohammed Mursi said he would not leave Gaza on its own and condemned Israel's "blatant aggression", hours after his prime minister visited Gaza.

Israel mounted a huge attack overnight, targeting dozens of locations. Later, Gaza militants targeted Tel Aviv with a missile but there were no casualties.

Twenty Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed since Wednesday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20356555

Note: Update record 16 November 2012 Last updated at 13:05 GMT

Jimbuna

11-16-12, 09:32 AM

Now the inevitable escalation begins.

Penguin

11-16-12, 10:05 AM

Here is an article by the BBC regarding the 'rocket' situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20343180

Inevitably, for all the talk from Israeli spokesmen of "surgical strikes", Palestinian civilians have been killed.

Dear Brits, please pull some cash together and buy Mr Marcus a ticket to Coventry; this may help him to learn how non-surgical strikes look like... :damn:

What does he expect, Gaza is one of the densest populated areas in the world, practically impossible to avoid. However coming from a nation which got bombed the crap out of it, 20 dead in over 100 strikes look pretty surgical to me.

Any civilian death is one too much, no question, but any dead body is on Hamas. The words of Golda Meir, about those who hate their enemy more than they love their own children are still true. How much cool stuff could you buy for kids for the price of 100 rockets? However those sick bastards from Hamas seem to be happy about every dead kid, this makes good pictures to fuel their hate-propaganda machine... :nope:

Oberon

11-16-12, 10:24 AM

Non-surgical strikes tend to look like this:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0310-01.jpg

Or this:

http://www.tiptoptens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/5.-Dresden-Bombing.jpg

Or this:

http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-GB/content/blitz-tower-bridge.jpg

By all means, Israeli attacks in Gaza are not pretty, and in such a densely populated area it's going to cause a lot of casualties, but in comparison to the strategic bombing campaigns of WWII, it doesn't even come close. So be glad that Israel doesn't have B-52s...

In regards to going in on the ground...no, Israel...please don't, that's not going to end well. You have drones, helos and aircraft, use them to hit the launchers, sending in the ground forces is a quick way to ramp up the casualties. :nope:

Gerald

11-16-12, 10:48 AM

Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip say they have launched a rocket on Jerusalem - the first time the holy city has been targeted from Gaza.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20365074

Note: Update record 16 November 2012 Last updated at 15:38 GMT

Skybird

11-16-12, 10:54 AM

If they plan to clear the rocket and missile arsenals of Hamas, they have no other choice than to go in and search house by house.

Insiders said since two years at least that the immense weapon arsenals of Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon now pose incalculatable risks for Israel, both in numbers and new quality and range. Hezbollah was already in 2008 armed more heavily than in 2006. It is said they even have Western made modern ATGMs now. Thanks to France maybe - having delivered modern Milan-2s to Libya? Milans are extremely agile - perfect as a heavy punch against tanks in urban surrounding. I think they would mean very bad news for Merkavas.

Jerusalem has been struck this day by rocket attack. I think that is a first.

Penguin

11-16-12, 10:59 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20365074

Firing a missile on Jerusalem is an extremely smart move by those Palestinian rocket scientists. Where does the name Al-Aqsa brigades derive from again? :hmmm:

Gerald

11-16-12, 11:03 AM

^Link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades

Penguin

11-16-12, 11:09 AM

^Link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question :03:

Red Brow

11-16-12, 11:11 AM

Gerald

11-16-12, 11:12 AM

^Nice one,Penguin :)

Gerald

11-16-12, 11:23 AM

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/17/64164468hamasrockets464.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/64164468hamasrockets464.gif/)

Skybird

11-16-12, 11:34 AM

I am pro Israel but I feel like their enemies have managed to get Israel riding off in the wrong direction. Those little rockets aren't the rockets Israel should be worrying about. And as for important targets, I believe Iran is in the other direction (more or less). I believe Israel's left flank (when dealing with Iran) is Syria. Not that Syria will do much militarily - but it is the big fat listening post for Iran that will possibly (possibly mind you) alert Iran if a BF-Flight of Israeli jets heads out toward Iran. Israeli tanks grinding up little Palestinian kids in ground rubble isn't going to help Israel's case for Iran with the world at large - who always worry about innocent civilians. As for Egypt, when it decides to place Tanks on Gaza's boarder, then and only then will I take note about it.
"little rockets"...? Obviously you have never been targetted by one. Nor have you ever lived in any of the villages and towns that get constantly shelled by these little rockets. You're under a shower, the alarm goes off, you have 15 seconds to get into the safe room. You go to bed, you do not know if you will sleep until the morning, or will be alarmed out of bed and have 15 seconds to get into your safe room. You walk to the baker, spend times with kids in your garden, and have 15 seconds to get into a safe room if there is alarm.

In some places they have multiple such alarms per day. Towns like Ashkelot and Sderot, Kibuzzim along the border. There they count not how many days til the next rocket falls. They count how many rockets per day.

Since years. Day and night.

Nice life, eh? Bunkers all around in public places. Concrete tubes on playgrounds. 4 year olds already learning to run when they hear that siren'S sound in the air.

The open flank of Israel is not just Gaza, more dangerous is Lebanon and Hezbollah. Both Hamas and Hezbollah get armed up and trained by Iran. Heavy callibre weapons. Bombs, shells, mortars, missiles. Hezbollah does not depend one little rockets anymore. Then there is Egyptr, much more worrying than Syria which is busy with itself. And underhanded Europe.

Israel has no other choice than to defend itself. But I also think that strategically Israel was founded in such an exposed position that it cannot hold its ground forever. And with the military bound in a war against Iran, maybe Hezbollah and Egypt as well, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians storming into Israel and causing civil unrest, riots and chasing the police through the streets mean the very real danger of Israel being pushed to collapse from within. That'S why Israel at no cost accepts any treaty granting free right to move into Israel for Palestinian Arabs.

We have seen in the socalled Arab Spring where civil unrest can lead to. And Israel is a small place with limited security force pool only. Not only has the Arab Spring brought fundamentalists to power in Egypt, Libya and Tunisia - strategically these revolutions were a nightmare for Israel. It can no longer trust in a stable peace with Egypt.

Here is a pic I stumbled over today, Hama'S setup in an area in Northern Gaza. The secret ammo stockpiles and command posts of course are not included, the pic most likely only marks what can be seen from the air.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/Gaza/hamasmap.jpeg

And this on the almost 9000 rocket attacks from Gaza in the years 2001-2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Add to this the increasing terror attacks Israel faces from the Sinai since Mubarak is gone. The Sinai is no longer under the Egyptian government control, whatever that would mean in difference anyway, but it is a buildup area for terrorism and smugglers now.

geetrue

11-16-12, 11:46 AM

This could be the situation the Lord spoke to me about three years ago.

I posted it on here back in May:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=183240&highlight=Hamas

"Hamas is going to do something so terrible to Israel that it will shock the world ... "

Not sure that this is what he was talking about, because to shock the world is a very difficult thing to do. Perhaps Hamas has shoulder fired missiles to take down an airliner. Plenty of them left over from other wars south of them.

I have the same God as Israel the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob with faith in his son Jesus.

My prayers are with them ... he is a big God and he will not be defeated.

Gerald

11-16-12, 11:47 AM

^Interesting images,Sky!

Takeda Shingen

11-16-12, 11:47 AM

Obviously you have never been targetted by one.

Have you, Skybird? Or are you also going by what you have read in magazines?

Let's fight clean, no?

Skybird

11-16-12, 11:48 AM

And there is another dimension to all this. The Israeli reaction to the recent upstepping of rockets raining down on its border areas with Hamas country seems to have set Israel on rails towards a major collision with Hamas that Israel cannot afford to end by just a seize-fire and without a decisive victory scored. Because natyhing else than a decisive and hurtig defeat, if possible: the destruction of Hamas, would be seen as a big success for Hamas, and a defeat for Israel. Wipin gout Hamas as a factor to be taken into account however would releive IOsrael'S sore flank in any possible furutre confrotnation with Iran.

One is wondering therefore if it is really just random chance that before Israel reacted to the upstepping of Hamas rocket attacks it had just undergone the biggest manouver of shared forces with the United States in its history.

The argument that is mentioned time and again in German quality media that Netanjahu is just eyeing to increase his election chances, imo is the most stupid thing one could come up with currently. He did not tell the Iranians to go for the bomb, nor did he tell Hamas to increase their usual rocket terror in the final weeks before election day.

Gerald

11-16-12, 12:34 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20365074

Note: Update record 16 November 2012 Last updated at 17:30 GMT

Red Brow

11-16-12, 01:22 PM

Go Israel

More succinct

Hottentot

11-16-12, 01:24 PM

who cares about little rockets.

The people who get hit by them?

Skybird

11-16-12, 01:31 PM

who cares about little rockets. Here in the USA we are pounded by tornadoes on a large scale. I have yet to see damage in Israel anywhere near the USA damage by hurricanes and tornadoes. What Israel needs to be doing is getting the Iranian nuclear development FLATTENED. When I say I am pro-Israel I mean I don't care about Palestinian collaterals. I care about Israel's biggest trouble - not the side shows. I am a Zionist and an avowed Globalist. If Israelis thinks that the little rocket-warheads are a trouble they need to pay more attention to Iran.

Truly in my opinion - at least since 1989 - Israel has been too careful by trying to slowly pull off the surgical tape from the wound by one increment at a time. I was always a great believer that Israel should have just used a flamethrower to remove surgical tape. RIP it off! Let the world scream and run around biting its rear end collective conscience. Gaza isn't worth calling any kind of FLANK. Neither is Egypt. Let Egypt stack some tanks near Gaza and after Israeli jets light them up, I will bring the wieners, and marshmallows.
You overestimate Israel'S strategic power. Mind you, it has NO friend world-wide - including Germany and the US - , it is limited in availability of resources, its vulnerability is growing, and the outlook is grim. Possible that Israel would not fall without using its nuke to drag down all the world alongsaide with it. And still - they know that they have no freinds they could trust, but many Arab and European nations who would like to stab it from behind and the latter crying crocodiles tears in sentimental TV-effective demonstrations.

There is a saying in German, translated it means: plenty of dogs are every rabbit's death.

Oberon

11-16-12, 01:42 PM

There's a fourth factor that we're overlooking here.

While Israel is stuck fighting house by house in Gaza, it's not conducting a full scale offensive against Irans nuclear power stations, and since there will be plenty of dead Palestinians to go around, and fewer dead Israelis (since their Iron Dome seems to be doing a reasonable job of knocking down these missiles) then world opinion will sway aganst Israel, Egypt will cause problems with the border, and Iran will clap its hands in glee since the only force left that could knock out its nuclear program is the US, and the US won't act because of world opinion.

Red Brow

11-16-12, 01:54 PM

I sometimes fear Ahmadinejad is correct - that Israel is not long for the world. It used to always remain one step ahead of its enemies. But since the 1st Gulf War Israel has slipped. Ever since Yitzhak Shamir's great mistake Israel has been one step behind.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4250372,00.html

Then came Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's loss of the Lebanon war - though it was claimed as a success - which it wasn't.

But before that I really thought Israel would take out Iran's nuclear program 10 years ago. It didn't. Everything since Yitzhak Shamir Israel has been behind and a day late. And more recently Netanyahu's cartoon "Bibi bomb". And now another cartoon response to Gaza. It reminds me of Jurassic Park where the T-Rex couldn't reach the two children, so in frustration the T-Rex starts biting the vehicle's tires. Gaza is just one of the tires.

Armistead

11-16-12, 02:14 PM

This is escalating that was expected. Israel will attack Iran, so they need to go ahead and secure Gaza so that will be dealt with beforehand.

Stealhead

11-16-12, 02:15 PM

who cares about little rockets. Here in the USA we are pounded by tornadoes on a large scale. I have yet to see damage in Israel anywhere near the USA damage by hurricanes and tornadoes. What Israel needs to be doing is getting the Iranian nuclear development FLATTENED. When I say I am pro-Israel I mean I don't care about Palestinian collaterals. I care about Israel's biggest trouble - not the side shows. I am a Zionist and an avowed Globalist. If Israelis thinks that the little rocket-warheads are a trouble they need to pay more attention to Iran.

.

By what you said in bold you support the idea of an Israeli state.Within reason I have no problem with this.Now you also claim to be an avowed globalist which means all peoples of the world under one state more or less.
Now if you claim to be both pro Zionist and pro globalist then that world state by default would one that favors Jews over all others.I do have a problem with that no matter who is the favored group.

Zionism: A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.
(Zionist)

globalism :A national geopolitical policy in which the entire world is regarded as the appropriate sphere for a state's influence
(globalist)

Oberon

11-16-12, 02:16 PM

This is escalating that was expected. Israel will attack Iran, so they need to go ahead and secure Gaza so that will be dealt with beforehand.

Good point, didn't think of it that way around. :yep:

Red Brow

11-16-12, 02:19 PM

As for Germany??????? Who cares? I mean Israel uses guilt trips to get little goodies out of Germany - such as little rocket-shootin' U-boats. But Iran has more call to claim German support historically. I know European powers like to pretend they don't care about Israel's destiny. And the European denizens actually seem to believe those official lines. But is Europe relevant in World Politics other than its markets and banking? In Afghanistan I had really hoped the USA would have told NATO (except for the Brits and Canadians) to just go home.

I think that was a symptom of Israel's demise - its desire for little rocket-shootin' U-boats. Like those boats would ever really do squat to Iran. Israel's real power was always two fold tanks and jets. But really since the 60s it was historically air power. Where are the Israeli long range heavy missiles? Obviously the big wooden horse called America has done its thing but appears to be running out of steam.

geetrue

11-16-12, 02:23 PM

Facts:

It is not clear if the rocket targeting Jerusalem was the same Iranian-built Fajr-5 launched towards
Tel Aviv for the second day on Friday.

The rockets have an estimated range of 75km (45 miles).
Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the rocket landed in Gush Etzion,
south of Jerusalem.

It said it was the first time since 1970 that a rocket had been fired there.

It is the first time Tel Aviv has come under attack since the 1991 Gulf War.

Analysts say it is the first time Gaza militants have deployed such powerful missiles.

I think Israel has to worry about the new Egypt protecting Gaza if they should chose to move the military into the Gaza strip

Tchocky

11-16-12, 02:32 PM

Where are the Israeli long range heavy missiles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_%28missile%29

kraznyi_oktjabr

11-16-12, 02:35 PM

@Red Brow are you seriously saying that Israeli government should dismiss those "little rockets" and worry about Iran? :doh: Sorry but I'm afraid that from Israeli people's point of view those "little rockets" are much more relevant problem at the moment. Thus as Israel - unlike many of its neighbours - is democracy I don't see how goverment could just dismiss this minor problem of "little rockets".

geetrue

11-16-12, 02:47 PM

That's a very interesting link Tchocky

I would think if Israel did attack Iran's nuclear plants suspected of producing nuclear fuel to build a bomb with (still months away) that they would use submarine launched cruise rockets.

My question is simply this, "How can you tell if the missile carried a nuclear warhead if it is a direct hit on a nuclear facility"?

In other words would say a non nuclear bomb from a warplane cause the same fall out problems as a small nuclear device?

Who could tell and how long would it take for say a dirty bomb to be delievered via a suicide bomber from Iran.

Israel has more problems than they can handle with any attack on Iran.

TLAM Strike

11-16-12, 03:17 PM

I think that was a symptom of Israel's demise - its desire for little rocket-shootin' U-boats. Like those boats would ever really do squat to Iran.
You do know those SLCMs could be used to deliver nuclear ordnance in the 2-300 kT range, right? A warhead like that is sufficient to wipe out most of Tehran.

TLAM Strike

11-16-12, 03:19 PM

My question is simply this, "How can you tell if the missile carried a nuclear warhead if it is a direct hit on a nuclear facility"
A nuclear reactor, etc does not explode in a nuclear blast when bombed, even a nuclear warhead would not explode if for example its armory was bombed. Not to mention the signature of the radiation in the blast can be identified as to the source of the nuclear material.

Gerald

11-16-12, 03:23 PM

(Reuters) - Israeli ministers were on Friday asked to endorse the call-up of up to 75,000 reservists after Palestinian militants nearly hit Jerusalem with a rocket for the first time in decades and fired at Tel Aviv for a second day.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/16/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121116

Note: Update record Fri Nov 16, 2012

geetrue

11-16-12, 03:31 PM

A nuclear reactor, etc does not explode in a nuclear blast when bombed, even a nuclear warhead would not explode if for example its armory was bombed. Not to mention the signature of the radiation in the blast can be identified as to the source of the nuclear material.

Thank you ... I was worried that a bunker busting bomb could be mistaken for a nuclear weapon instead, but if and when they do anything it will be an act of war and the outcome won't be pretty.

unless of course they wait and wait and wait for Iran to fire first after years and years of promising to wipe them out.

Then the world wouldn't be against them ... I think :hmmm:

HunterICX

11-16-12, 04:11 PM

I think I'll leave this one here...

This land is mine:
http://vimeo.com/50531435

HunterICX

eddie

11-16-12, 04:13 PM

I think the dumbest thing I've heard recently about these events over there, is from Assad. He said the world should condemn Israel for a terrorist attack against the civilians in Gaza!!!

Hey Assad, how's the killing of Syrian civilians going!?!:-?

u crank

11-16-12, 04:25 PM

I think I'll leave this one here...

This land is mine:
http://vimeo.com/50531435

HunterICX

That about sums it up. Good one. :up:

Gerald

11-16-12, 04:54 PM

Red Brow

11-16-12, 05:30 PM

Should the USA have launched a 6 decade war on hurricanes and tornadoes instead of Korea, Vietnam, yadda, and yadda? Well actually yes, it would have made more sense to change the weather rather than flushing all our wealth and youth down the war drain. But America was able to build a strange empire that was something to see back in the 60s through 80s. I am possibly wrong about what Israel is doing now. It could have more intent in it than what is bandied about on the world news.

Yes, I am a Globalist, not but by the understanding of the average denizen of Europe and even America. Actually I love showing people around me the true stance of the REAL Globalists and watching them wince and nervously wiggle and then DISAGREE with real Globalist's plans. And these are not plans I make up - they are plans in print and out there for anyone to see who isn't a propaganda zombie. Then I really delight - because I point out to these zombies that they REALLY ARE NOT GLOBALISTS - - or liberal, or even free minded Europeans. They are in fact, by their own WANT-SOs and beliefs, rebels against the Empire. They are rebels; they are not real modern Avant-garde types the way they love to imagine.

But I support the real Globalist Big Kahunas. I have been completely surrendered to them for 12 to 13 years. I preach SURRENDER to anyone who imagines they will resist them. I am such a good boy, the Big Kahunas of the Powers That Be can run any sack of dung up the flagpole and I will snap to attention and salute. President W for an illegal 3rd term? By Hades yes, I'll salute it. Obama with a gold crown? Just let me slick my hair back a second and I'll stand and salute. Globalists that use Zionism? I don't know if such a thing exists...but I'd salute it if The Powers That Be want it!

Yes, I once did resist the standard societal knowledge brought by the mega-media news. But then I saw the light. And now I'm always on the right side and my candidate for office ALWAYS WINS. Like I told my brother a month ago...."My man will win - whether it be Romney or Obama. Which ever wins and is run up the flag pole IS MY MAN, my boss, my inspiration.

Being pro Zionist isn't always the same as being pro Israeli or Jewish. But for the record, I am pro those folks. Am I one? No. Does Red Brow refer to red hair on the eyebrow? Nope. It refers to me being what I am - a red Injun.

Politically correct? Are any of you really? I find that people never are. They pretend to be, but only as far as their own reason and desires will allow. scrap reason. I am politically correct. Tell me what is on the new agenda today and I'll mouth it and salute it. All of it. Even the parts that make most so called NORMAL zombies wince with their tad of reason that is left to them.

And why am I such an agreeable guy? Because my kids came of age and I didn't want them flushing their own lives down the worthless drain of comic book heroedum - like me who flushed 27 to 30 years down the sewer trying to resist. It is a worthless occupation, and it only shortens your life and happiness.

Tchocky

11-16-12, 05:33 PM

What?

Tribesman

11-16-12, 06:14 PM

What?
That?

Takeda Shingen

11-16-12, 06:21 PM

This thread took a real left turn, didn't it?

Gerald

11-16-12, 06:23 PM

^Ya bet :hmmm:

Oberon

11-16-12, 06:23 PM

Hang on, I know what this is...let me run it through the machine...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAW5Bz4Ui-iNg8QxW3DoIrtVm_wJSFPUnM9MSucfjmMz4sCTna_kGohnQf

No...no, I got nothing...

HunterICX

11-16-12, 06:24 PM

This thread took a real left turn, didn't it?

it turned alright but I've a hard time figuring out what way it did turn....

HunterICX

Tribesman

11-16-12, 06:25 PM

When?

HunterICX

11-16-12, 06:27 PM

When?

Stop adding more questions you silly leprechaun! :O:

I've a hard time already trying to make sense out of that post up there.

HunterICX

Tribesman

11-16-12, 06:31 PM

Know?

HunterICX

11-16-12, 06:32 PM

OW shut up :haha:

HunterICX

u crank

11-16-12, 06:33 PM

This thread took a real left turn, didn't it?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i98QrSSHxo4

Gerald

11-16-12, 06:50 PM

Gaza conflict: Israel vows to intensify offensive

"Tonight won't be calm in Gaza," army spokesman Yoav Mordechai said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20372920

Note: Update record, 16 November 2012 Last updated at 23:17 GMT

Sailor Steve

11-16-12, 07:17 PM

Stop adding more questions you silly leprechaun! :O:

¿Que?

Oberon

11-16-12, 07:50 PM

¿Que?

"There is too much butter...on...those...trays."

darius359au

11-16-12, 08:45 PM

Gerald

11-16-12, 08:47 PM

Israel says it has since targeted some 600 "terror sites" in Gaza.

Telephoned by PM Benjamin Netanyahu, Barack Obama repeated the US's support for Israel's "right to defend itself".

A White House spokesman said Mr Obama had "expressed regret over the loss of Israeli and Palestinian civilian lives".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20372920

Note: Update record, 17 November 2012 Last updated at 01:09 GMT

Oberon

11-16-12, 09:01 PM

Now that Hamas is taking potshots at Jerusalem with their rockets ,what happens if they hit the Dome of the Rock? ,not sure if its a ****e or sunni shrine or is it both? ,I can't see them having any support left in the region if they did -of course the Israeli's would be even more po'd than they are now seeing it's built on top of the temple of David as well..

That thought crossed my mind as well, it would be the ultimate irony really and really stir up a hornets nest.

Red Brow

11-16-12, 11:32 PM

Stealhead

11-17-12, 01:19 AM

What you said about nukes not being detonated by enemy nukes or conventional warheads suddenly brought to my mind the movie 'Deep Impact'. Something always seemed weird about the ending and you reminding me of the fact about nukes suddenly made it clear what it was that bothered me in the movie.

At the end of the show as the space ship was descending into a vast crack in the asteroid, they had four powerful hydrogen bombs set in a row about 18 inches a part. Of course while four exploding nukes near a single point might produce a bigger blast, it would only make a blast damage area of twice the area of a specified single nuke IF the blast was 10 times that of the specified single nuke (The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, 1977, Prepared and published by the United States Department of Defense. Compiled and Edited by S. Glasstone and P. Dolan.) This is why MIRVed warheads were added to missiles to insure a greater blast area on large cities.

But the point I wanted to make about the movie: unless the four nukes could be insured to detonate at exactly the same nanosecond (or less) then the first warhead to detonate, say a nanosecond earlier than the rest, would totally screw up the plutonium spheres of the other three warheads before they could reach critical mass. It would blow those other warheads to pieces just like you mentioned on your post earlier. Such systems as warheads may have very slight differences in slight voltage, wiring, trigger effectiveness etc. etc. which would make it impossible for all four warheads to detonate at the same nano- instant. In the life of a thermonuclear explosion even such a slight instant would be enough to make all the difference for the other three nukes, packed together with the first one, at intervals of 18 inches a part!

The result? In the movie the asteroid should not have blown into tiny bits and should have slammed as a whole mass into earth - good bye civilization.

Am I right???? This is for TLAM Strike

I am not TLAM Strike but...

On MIRVs I can tell you that there where four primary reasons for developing them and the other three where of more military than the one you mention they wanted more warheads to
allow more blast effect on military targets such as enemy silos.

The rest

Uh in Deep Impact the meteor hit the earth it was not stopped you must be thinking of Armageddon.(not that I enjoyed either movie)

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/plan.jpg

Anyway....

Jet Propulsion Laboratory

To receive a packet containing printed material about JPL's missions & projects, send a request to the address below. Be as specific as possible about what kind of information you would like.
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Public Services Office M/S 186-113
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, CA 91109

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/ask.jpg

Hottentot

11-17-12, 01:22 AM

The price of cheese has gone up lately. I suggest we have a war on mouses! I'm not going to just stand idle and watch those mousists ruining my breakfast any longer! Are you with me or against me?!

Stealhead

11-17-12, 01:34 AM

The price of cheese has gone up lately. I suggest we have a war on mouses! I'm not going to just stand idle and watch those mousists ruining my breakfast any longer! Are you with me or against me?!

What kind of cheese?

Hottentot

11-17-12, 01:47 AM

Who cares as long as we get to have a war on something?

eddie

11-17-12, 02:24 AM

Man, looks like the Israeli's hit what they were definitely aiming at!! That PM's office is gone!

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/17/15229132-israel-bombs-office-of-gaza-prime-minister?lite

Armistead

11-17-12, 03:16 AM

I believe this is the end of the world. I do believe the Mayan calender may be correct. This is the end folks. I suggest you stock up on those food buckets being sold by Jim Baker.

We've decided not to shop this year for xmas until Dec.22 if we're still here.

Tribesman

11-17-12, 04:41 AM

There is too much butter
Donkey?

Skybird

11-17-12, 04:54 AM

Now that Hamas is taking potshots at Jerusalem with their rockets ,what happens if they hit the Dome of the Rock? ,not sure if its a ****e or sunni shrine or is it both? ,I can't see them having any support left in the region if they did -of course the Israeli's would be even more po'd than they are now seeing it's built on top of the temple of David as well..

edit - oh goodie the naughty language filter *****ed the non sunni branch of islam..

It would mean little for Hamas but much trouble for Israel, because Muslims in the region will blame Israel for having forced Hamas to fire at Jerusalem. "It's always the Jews, stupid!" :salute:

Skybird

11-17-12, 04:56 AM

Jimbuna

11-17-12, 06:26 AM

I'm wondering what Egypt will do if Israeli troops move in.

Gerald

11-17-12, 06:46 AM

Clearly, a very massive regional conflict that is going on now.

Sailor Steve

11-17-12, 08:32 AM

edit - oh goodie the naughty language filter *****ed the non sunni branch of islam..
I believe that "Shiite" has a double-i. :sunny:

[edit] A little research also indicates that it's normally divided by an apostrophe: "Shi'ite".

Oberon

11-17-12, 08:45 AM

Uh in Deep Impact the meteor hit the earth it was not stopped you must be thinking of Armageddon.(not that I enjoyed either movie)

Actually, the asteroid (Wolf-Biederman) was split in two by the initial nuclear blast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIwFGmgYMs

The two halves are named Wolf and Biederman seperately, Wolf is the large population buster due to hit Canada and block out the sun for two years, whereas Biederman hits off North Carolina which does the damage seen in the film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNtsVP42bOE

Wolf is slightly behind Biederman, so the crew of the Messiah decide to head into the deepest fissure they can find on Wolf and detonate the remaining nuclear weapons, which blows Wolf apart into smaller fragments which burn up in the atmosphere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQWmd8REdaE&feature=fvwrel

So Brow is correct. However, you are also correct with:

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/ask.jpg

There's also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqA6OomHGuM

Alex

11-17-12, 08:47 AM

Let me help my man Vendor out:

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/2412/terrorists2bin2b5star2b.jpg

Al-Mashtal hotel:
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2830/almashtal007.jpg

I thought Gaza was one big Ghetto? Thats what the news says. That's the Middle East's version of a Ghetto?

cast lead, dude.
Eat more fish. That will improve your memory.

This is what the actual ghetto looks like... (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nazareth_college/6914804478/in/set-72157629412360206) yea that's a few miles from my house.
Where's the white phosphorus ?

Takeda Shingen

11-17-12, 08:49 AM

In before occidental.

Gerald

11-17-12, 09:28 AM

It has been another difficult night for people in Gaza. One of the strikes targeted the home of a Hamas leader in the Jabaliya refugee camp - one of the most densely populated places in the world.

It looks as though the missile went in through the front room. The washing is still hanging on a line, and everything else is totally destroyed. Most of the people around here are young children. We understand that 30 people were injured here, some of them children, and some of them critically.

There were a lot of strikes in the south of Gaza in Rafah, targeting some of the smuggling tunnels down there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20374282

Note: Update record 17 November 2012 Last updated at 13:05 GMT

Jimbuna

11-17-12, 09:33 AM

Looks like somebody will be looking for some real estate pretty soon.

Red Brow

11-17-12, 11:26 AM

I watch deep impact twice a week...on average...
No - it was Deep Impact. Yes the first series of spaced nukes did crack off a tiny chunk or the first asteroid. It later hit the ocean on earth. The big chunk was still a civilization killer. The crew of the semi-damaged space ship flew into a big crack in the big asteroid and blew it to bits which made the massive meteor shower over earth. I know how the movie goes cause I watch it religiously.

As for MIRVs I watched this very closely. I know the full set of reasons. But the reason I mentioned WAS one of the main reasons:

"Providing greater target damage for a given missile payload. Radiation (including radiated heat) from a nuclear warhead diminishes as the square of the distance (called the inverse-square law), and blast pressure diminishes as the cube of the distance. For example at a distance of 4 km from ground zero, the blast pressure is only 1/64th that of 1 km. Due to these effects several small warheads cause much more target damage area than a single large one."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle

In fact in the Civil Defense books I read in the early 80s every map I saw of projected damage on cities always included at least 4 strike points.

TLAM Strike

11-17-12, 11:39 AM

But the point I wanted to make about the movie: unless the four nukes could be insured to detonate at exactly the same nanosecond (or less) then the first warhead to detonate, say a nanosecond earlier than the rest, would totally screw up the plutonium spheres of the other three warheads before they could reach critical mass. It would blow those other warheads to pieces just like you mentioned on your post earlier. Such systems as warheads may have very slight differences in slight voltage, wiring, trigger effectiveness etc. etc. which would make it impossible for all four warheads to detonate at the same nano- instant. In the life of a thermonuclear explosion even such a slight instant would be enough to make all the difference for the other three nukes, packed together with the first one, at intervals of 18 inches a part!

The result? In the movie the asteroid should not have blown into tiny bits and should have slammed as a whole mass into earth - good bye civilization.

Am I right???? This is for TLAM Strike I'm not sure if the fissile material of the other bombs would "add to" the explosion of the first one, but I kind of doubt it unless the bombs were somehow designed for that (Each bomb is can be its own bomb or a stage in the detonation of a multistage device), but designing such a Frankenbomb would be a nightmare.

The only way it could possibly work is if they were using some kind of optical wiring and circuitry in the weapons. But these guys are NASA and not Starfleet I doubt they have that tech sitting around space rated already.

geetrue

11-17-12, 11:45 AM

To receive a packet containing printed material about JPL's missions & projects, send a request to the address below. Be as specific as possible about what kind of information you would like.
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Public Services Office M/S 186-113
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena, CA 91109

I delivered a phone book there back in the 90's
There was nothing there just a big empty shell of a building.

Now remember this was like 1995 or somewhere around that
time period and anything can happen in a 17 year time span,
but seriously folks this war is getting out of hand.

It's not so much today I worry about, but it's the five year time
period it will take for Syria, Egypt and the other war like factions
that hate Israel to gather together for one giant move on these
obviously more intelligent people that have made the desert bloom,

developed nuclear weapons, developed their own delivery systems,
proving their contribution to the region has not been in vain.

Whee! and all that before breakfast west coast time :smug:

Hottentot

11-17-12, 12:13 PM

Cheese for breakfast, brrrrr... barbar! I say: You shall die and serve as mouse fodder!

Well so what of what you say? In Africa crocodiles eat people, OK. :stare:

Tribesman

11-17-12, 12:15 PM

cast lead, dude.
Eat more fish. That will improve your memory.

:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:
Maybe the secret magic jewish mind control program has wiped your mind despite a very fishy diet?
No, I get it now, its the global occidental time travel club.

Then again as you are stuck with a crazy 1930s ideology maybe you just have difficulty understanding dates.:doh:

Jimbuna

11-17-12, 02:27 PM

Well so what of what you say? In Africa crocodiles eat people, OK. :stare:

But not as many as those humans that eat crocodile :)

Hottentot

11-17-12, 02:32 PM

But not as many as those humans that eat crocodile :)

Who cares? People eat hamburgers too. Have you heard someone declaring war on hamburgers?

Jimbuna

11-17-12, 02:47 PM

Who cares? People eat hamburgers too. Have you heard someone declaring war on hamburgers?

Just Macdonalds :hmmm:

Jimbuna

11-17-12, 03:06 PM

The IDF are now practicing 'house clearance' exercises so unless the Arab League meeting comes up with a solution, which I seriously believe it will not, it's looking increasingly likely the IDF will move into Gaza:

Meanwhile, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal will hold talks with leaders of Egypt, Qatar and Turkey on Saturday.
The talks will take place in Cairo, which has also been hosting an emergency meeting of the Arab League.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20378425

Stealhead

11-17-12, 06:12 PM

Actually, the asteroid (Wolf-Biederman) was split in two by the initial nuclear blast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIwFGmgYMs

The two halves are named Wolf and Biederman seperately, Wolf is the large population buster due to hit Canada and block out the sun for two years, whereas Biederman hits off North Carolina which does the damage seen in the film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNtsVP42bOE

Wolf is slightly behind Biederman, so the crew of the Messiah decide to head into the deepest fissure they can find on Wolf and detonate the remaining nuclear weapons, which blows Wolf apart into smaller fragments which burn up in the atmosphere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQWmd8REdaE&feature=fvwrel

So Brow is correct. However, you are also correct with:

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/ask.jpg

There's also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqA6OomHGuM

Well like I said did not find either movie to be that good and only viewed each once over a decade ago so I might have the two mixed up in my brain.

darius359au

11-17-12, 06:16 PM

I believe that "Shiite" has a double-i. :sunny:

[edit] A little research also indicates that it's normally divided by an apostrophe: "Shi'ite".

Yeah ,figured that after ,had a bad spelling day I think :03:

Stealhead

11-17-12, 06:28 PM

You can always use actual name Shia Islam and a follower is called either a Shi'ite or a Shia.

Skybird

11-17-12, 06:45 PM

Good German comment on the eternal, always self-repeating Palestinian self-deception.

http://www.welt.de/debatte/article111236267/Palaestinensischer-Irrsinn-finanziert-von-den-UN.html

geetrue

11-17-12, 08:35 PM

Stealhead

11-17-12, 09:29 PM

Not on the sabbath day which is over at sunset today :smug:

The IDF made the mistake of being caught of guard during a Jewish holy day back in 1973 it wont happen again.Also for the most conservative Jews the Haredi
there is a Jewish amendment that allows them not to serve in the IDF.

Jimbuna

11-18-12, 07:59 AM

Looks like the heat has been turned up another notch....Gaza is now being shelled from the sea:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20383001

Alex

11-18-12, 09:49 AM

So everyone is still thinking the chosen people are doing the right thing ?
A new agression started against the Gaza strip, and everyone's okay with that.

Where's your brain ?
The state of Israel is bombing the Gaza strip once again. What do you say ?
What ? The reasons why it gets to be bombed once again ? Well, simple, really : Mr Mahmoud Abbas, Palestinian President, recently told he is going to seek a vote at the United Nations assembly to approve Palestine as a sovereign country.
And in the actual situation, he wouldn't even get a status making him able to vote. So everything Mr Abbas is asking for is no more than an inferior level at the United Nations assembly.

And still, the answer from Israel is that one.

Spread the word.

Jimbuna

11-18-12, 10:29 AM

I was under the impression the Israeli actions are in response to repeated rocket attacks from Hamas based in Gaza.

Nor am I on either side but I know what I'd be expecting my countries armed forces to do should the UK be subject to similar cross border attacks.

CaptainHaplo

11-18-12, 10:47 AM

The reasons why it gets to be bombed once again ?

Why don't you tell us?

Well, simple, really : Mr Mahmoud Abbas, Palestinian President, recently told he is going to seek a vote at the United Nations assembly to approve Palestine as a sovereign country. And in the actual situation, he wouldn't even get a status making him able to vote. So everything Mr Abbas is asking for is no more than an inferior level at the United Nations assembly.

So it has nothing to do with Palestinians in Gaza shooting rockets, right? I guess that isn't really happening - even through there is often live video of it? Or - if it is happening - that is only harming jews and attacking Israel, which even as a soveriegn country has no right to exist so its all ok?

Yea, ok. Ignoring facts and reality is so much easier to do when it reconciles with your preconceived political viewpoint huh?

Catfish

11-18-12, 10:56 AM

I was under the impression the Israeli actions are in response to repeated rocket attacks from Hamas based in Gaza.

^ This has been the reason for the Israeli counterattack, they are talking about defending themselves.
However the first thing they did was to kill the Hamas leader, who b.t.w. was the head of the Gaza 'Palestine state', if you so want.
What i would like to know is evidence of the (how much?) Gaza attacks on Israel - yeah look at FoxNews and CNN thank you :shifty:.
As far as i know Israel has said there have been Gaza rocket attacks at Israel for years ?

For me it seems - as probably said before - that Israel wants to secure Gaza, before the sh.. with Syria and Iran hits the fan.

Jimbuna

11-18-12, 11:14 AM

For me it seems - as probably said before - that Israel wants to secure Gaza, before the sh.. with Syria and Iran hits the fan.

That is a possibility but what worries me most is Israel sending troops into Gaza and Egypt responding militarily therefore escalating it into a very serious scenario.

That may well be what Hamas are out to achieve but that is only my opinion.

Alex

11-18-12, 11:53 AM

Ah, the joys of the warmongering atlanticist media.

Of course everything is a lie.
Everyone is happy in Palestine, you know.
And wait a minute, guys. You definitely should hear the manifestations of joy and satisfaction in the streets everyday when people return home from work : everyday at 5:00 PM in Gaza there is no more than manifestations of popular jubilation in the skies, everyone bursts out laughing on his broomstick. And when they get back home, only then do Palestinians put away their broomstick, get their rocket launchers, and launch satanic attacks on the peaceful, quiet, happy promised land that is far beyond reproach in terms of respect of human rights.

Ask Tribesman, he knows ! :har::har::har::har:

11-18-12, 12:02 PM

Nice sig...alex:haha:

Alex

11-18-12, 12:15 PM

Glad to know you like it, haha.
I wanted Tribesman to feel better. But since I've got that sig apparently I'm no more an antisemite, but an anti jew neo nazi.

Man, I don't want to change my sig every week ! I will keep that sig for some time, I tell ya.

Takeda Shingen

11-18-12, 12:56 PM

Ah, the joys of the warmongering atlanticist media.

What happened to occidental? Or is this your new word of the week?

Man, I don't want to change my sig every week ! I will keep that sig for some time, I tell ya.

That's fine, as long as you don't post outside of GT.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=how_stuff_works_faq#faq_signature_imag e_faqs

Sigs that are political or religous in nature may only be displayed in General Topics. Only naval-oriented sigs are allowed in the naval and game forums.

CaptainHaplo

11-18-12, 01:04 PM

Ah, the joys of the warmongering atlanticist media.

Of course everything is a lie.

Ask Tribesman, he knows !

Well, it would seem that you definitely learned from him - seeing as how you disregard the facts and reality and instead try to lay blame and point fingers and change the subject to avoid the truth. Good luck with that.

Tribesman

11-18-12, 01:23 PM

Well, it would seem that you definitely learned from him
Oh dear:doh: you should have kept quiet there mr "christian".
The bigoted jew hating trash little alex spouts is exactly the same as from those wonderful "christians" you stuck up for:yep:

What happened to occidental? Or is this your new word of the week?

Don't forget he hates america as well as jews, though of course as he says the global jewish conspiracy runs not only america but all the worlds media it wouldn't matter if it was atlantic or antarctic.

Seth8530

11-18-12, 04:39 PM

Gerald

11-18-12, 04:40 PM

An Israeli strike on a home in Gaza has killed at least 10 people, officials say, as Sunday became the deadliest day since Israel launched an operation against Hamas militants last week.

BBC correspondents say the strike targeted a Hamas official and that a number of children were killed.

PM Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is ready to expand its operation.

Gaza militants continue to fire rockets at Israel, with injuries reported in towns including Ashkelon and Ofakim.

Sources on both sides say attempts to reach a ceasefire are continuing.

Note: Update record, 18 November 2012 Last updated at 21:31 GMT

Takeda Shingen

11-18-12, 04:46 PM

Hey, I just want to make sure that I have my time line correct.
Israel thinks it owns Gaza. The people of Gaza ( ruled by Hamas) say no. Thus their has been a lot of historical bad blood and border spats between these two groups.
So then Israel kills the Hamas leader with a warplane and then the western media decides to blame Hamas ( and thus Gaza) for when Hamas sends rockets into Israel? And now it is looking like Israel might invade the Gaze strip?

You don't. The strike against the Hamas leader was in relatiation for missile attacks commencing on 14/15 November. The Israeli government also has a legitimate point about self defense. Imagine if Canada was launching rockets across the border into New York state. What do you think the response of the United States would be? We cannot expect them to sit there and be shot at without acting to neutralize the threat.

Jimbuna

11-18-12, 05:15 PM

* Ignoring the cut and paste above*

You don't. The strike against the Hamas leader was in relatiation for missile attacks commencing on 14/15 November. The Israeli government also has a legitimate point about self defense. Imagine if Canada was launching rockets across the border into New York state. What do you think the response of the United States would be? We cannot expect them to sit there and be shot at without acting to neutralize the threat.

Precisely :yep:

Gerald

11-18-12, 05:18 PM

* Ignoring the cut and paste above* Nice one :)

Seth8530

11-18-12, 05:18 PM

Ok, I missed the part where Hamas sent rockets into Israel prior to all this. Is my Geo-political part correct?

Jimbuna

11-18-12, 05:25 PM

Nice one :)

Not meant as an offensive response....but try giving an opinion and that will hold a lot more credibility :yep:

Gerald

11-18-12, 05:44 PM

Not meant as an offensive response....but try giving an opinion and that will hold a lot more credibility :yep: PM Inbound!

Takeda Shingen

11-18-12, 05:56 PM

Ok, I missed the part where Hamas sent rockets into Israel prior to all this. Is my Geo-political part correct?

Again, no. Israel recognizes Gaza as the domain of the Palestinian authority and withdrew settlers and military personnel as per the 2005 disengagement. The problem is that Hamas is utilizing the Gaza Strip to stage attacks on Israel proper, and as such it control the airspace and waterways around the strip in an effort to prevent supplies from reaching the attackers therein. Hamas is using this effort as an excuse to keep the attacks going.

Gerald

11-19-12, 07:25 AM

At least 18 people have died in the Gaza Strip as Israeli forces kept up air strikes they say are aimed at stopping rocket attacks into Israel.

Fewer rockets have been launched, but some have hit southern Israeli towns.

More than 90 Palestinians and three Israelis have died since Wednesday. They include nine members of a Gaza family apparently killed by mistake.

The UN secretary general has called for an immediate ceasefire as he prepares to join truce talks in Egypt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20391558

Note: Update record, 19 November 2012 Last updated at 12:15 GMT

Gerald

11-19-12, 10:24 AM

1518:
Israeli cabinet minister Uzi Landau tells the BBC that Israel is doing its best to target "terrorist infrastructure" only in Gaza, but says the country has been forced into a "war" because of ongoing rocket attacks on its civilian population. Always a conflict.

geetrue

11-19-12, 12:31 PM

God has had His problems with this are before :hmmm:

Their land reached from Sidon to Gerar as far as Gaza, and then to Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

Deut 2:23 The Cretan people came from Crete and destroyed the Avvites, who lived in towns all the way to Gaza; the Cretans destroyed them and took their place.)

Josh 10:41 Joshua captured all the cities from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza, and from Goshen to Gibeon.

Josh 11:22 There were no Anakites left living in the land of the Israelites and only a few were left in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod.

Judg 1:18 The men of Judah captured Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, and the lands around them.

Judg 6:4 They camped in the land and destroyed the crops that the Israelites had planted as far away as Gaza. They left nothing for Israel to eat, and no sheep, cattle, or donkeys.

Judg 16:1 One day Samson went to Gaza and saw a prostitute there. He went in to spend the night with her.

Judg 16:2 When the people of Gaza heard, “Samson has come here!” they surrounded the place and waited for him near the city gate all night. They whispered to each other, “When dawn comes, we will kill Samson!”

1 Kings 4:24 Solomon controlled all the countries west of the Euphrates River—the land from Tiphsah to Gaza. And he had peace on all sides of his kingdom.

2 Kings 18:8 Hezekiah defeated the Philistines all the way to Gaza and its borders, including the watchtowers and the strong, walled cities.

Jer 47:5 The people from the city of Gaza will be sad and shave their heads. The people from the city of Ashkelon will be made silent. Those left alive from the valley, how long will you cut yourselves?

Amos 1:6 This is what the Lord says: “For the many crimes of Gaza, I will punish them. They sold all the people of one area as slaves to Edom.

Amos 1:7 So I will send a fire on the walls of Gaza that will destroy the city’s strong buildings

Zeph 2:4 No one will be left in the city of Gaza, and the city of Ashkelon will be destroyed. Ashdod will be empty by noon, and the people of Ekron will be chased away.

Zech 9:5 The city of Ashkelon will see it and be afraid. The people of Gaza will shake with fear, and the people of Ekron will lose hope. No king will be left in Gaza, and no one will live in Ashkelon anymore.

Jimbuna

11-19-12, 01:15 PM

Been watching quite a lot of Sky News whilst at work today and I'm noticing a shift in emphasis on what is being filmed ie: civilian casualties.

It could be that is what the Palestinian authorities are directing the news teams toward.

There is also talk of a possible ceasefire but both sides are probably finding it hard to agree on a face saving script for the worlds media.

Tribesman

11-19-12, 02:23 PM

Been watching quite a lot of Sky News whilst at work today and I'm noticing a shift in emphasis on what is being filmed ie: civilian casualties.

It could be that is what the Palestinian authorities are directing the news teams toward.

Could it be that the media office Sky News was using got bombed yesterday?

Jimbuna

11-19-12, 02:41 PM

Could it be that the media office Sky News was using got bombed yesterday?

Yeah, possibly.

Tribesman

11-19-12, 02:56 PM

Yeah, possibly.
It was just a suggestion that may or may not have bearing.:03:
However if you look at Israeli media following that family getting wiped out there is a wide sense of "oh bugger thats blown it on the proopoganda front now its just gonna be a rerun of the fiasco in Lebanon".

Lets face it, both sides in this conflict are run by idiots and the only approach either will try is just the same tired old crap again and again.

eddie

11-19-12, 03:00 PM

With idiots like these (who look forward to death), how can anyone expect an even half baked ceasfire to work? Doesn't look like even Hamas can control them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/world/middleeast/brigades-that-fire-on-israel-show-a-deadly-new-discipline.html?ref=israel&_r=0

Jimbuna

11-19-12, 03:04 PM

It was just a suggestion that may or may not have bearing.:03:
However if you look at Israeli media following that family getting wiped out there is a wide sense of "oh bugger thats blown it on the proopoganda front now its just gonna be a rerun of the fiasco in Lebanon".

Lets face it, both sides in this conflict are run by idiots and the only approach either will try is just the same tired old crap again and again.

IIRC it's the second or third time yhe building has been attacked.

I'm not sure what missiles are being used but they must be accurate because the Israelis appear to be picking the building floors of their choice.

eddie

11-19-12, 03:16 PM

Jimbuna

11-19-12, 05:05 PM

From what I've read, the Israelis were going after some Hamas militant leader who has an apartment there, and they got him in a missile strike. Now there are fires on the lower levels and folks are trapped on the top floors.

Israel are accusing the Hamas hierarchy of hiding amongst civilians which is more or less tantamount to using them as human shields.

eddie

11-19-12, 05:51 PM

That's one of their favorite tactics in the ME!

Skybird

11-19-12, 06:03 PM

LINK: Verified incident map (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/nov/19/gaza-israel-verified-incidents-mapped)

Constantly updated markers on incidents reported from news and wires from across the region.

Gerald

11-19-12, 06:06 PM

The BBC has a similar, :know:

Skybird

11-19-12, 07:42 PM

A series of very interesting background analysis by Stratfor (subscription required).

In brief they argue that the Israeli operation was triggered by an operation from the 23rd of October, when most likely Israeli commandos struck a weapon factory in Yarmouk near Khatoum, Sudan. Iran used it to produce weapons for Hamas, among them Fajr-5 missiles that can reach as far as Tel Aviv. The weapons got delivered to Gaza via Egypt.

Just two days later, after Hamas must have realised that by the strike in Sudan Israel learned about the Fajr-5, Hamas signed a seize fire with Israel, but other organisation intensified the shelling of Southern Israel, and stepped it up again from 10th Novembre on. But then Israel'S preparation for reacting to the new thread posed by the Fajr-5, already was running at full speed.

Stratfor as well as the Jerusalem Post reason that destroying the Fajr-5 is the main objective, and in preparation of ground operations they try to weaken the non-Hamas-militias by beefing up attacks to disrupt the medium command level and targetting commanders on that level, they also have intensified bombardement of certain facilities and sites in Gaza in an attempt to catch the Fajr's. However, both publications imply that if the Fajr-objective is valid still, a ground offensive to search for them with boots in the streets is inevitable. That two Fajr's got fired at Tel Aviv just yesterday shows, that they cannot be found and neutralised by airpower alone.

A German comment remarks also this: until Monday afternoon, Israel has struck over 1000 target sites in Gaza, a heavily populated area of dense urbanity. Despite the colossal number of strikes and the extreme difficulties to differ between civilian and military targets, only - and I repeat: ONLY - 91 civilians until Monday afternoon have been killed. That makes this war operation so far the most surgical and precise military operation in the history of mankind. With the shifting towards targetting medium level military commanders to weaken the non-Hamas militias, this number will go up. And still, for a war under these conditions, the precision and low level of collateral losses is breathtaking.

It also seems that Israel has had very good intel on the situation in Gaza. Definitely better prepared than in 2006.

This is still freely accessible:
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/considering-israeli-ground-assault-gaza

For this you need to subscribe:
http://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/irans-agenda-gaza-offensive
http://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/israel-tel-aviv-targeted-rockets
http://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/considering-hamas-intent-targeting-tel-aviv
http://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/egypts-measured-response-operation-pillar-defense

About Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratfor

Gerald

11-19-12, 07:48 PM

^Intriguing Sky,:yep:

soopaman2

11-19-12, 10:10 PM

They can do whatever they want.

As long as no American lives or money is spent in the process.

Oh I forgot, not possible.

More burials in Arlington for us Americans...

Good thing they love (moar like use amirite?!!?!???) us...Oh wait...

Red Brow

11-19-12, 11:47 PM

Great points and presentation. I promise to stop thinking of you to myself as "Stuka" and only think of you as "Skybird". From here on out if some of your diatribes sound a bit like a 19th century Prussian farmer complaining at a kitchen table in the morning, I promise to just think of you as my Uncle Bud. You rock guy!

Oberon

11-20-12, 01:00 AM

Good analysis by Stratfor, they're usually pretty good at putting the dots together. The Fajr-5 is quite large, but small enough to be able to be hid in buildings, or more likely, underground.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/FADJR-3.FADJR-5_SIZE_DIAGRAM_FINAL.JPG/281px-FADJR-3.FADJR-5_SIZE_DIAGRAM_FINAL.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/FADJR-3.FADJR-5_SIZE_DIAGRAM_FINAL.JPG)

There are TELs, but I imagine that most rockets are fired from improvised static locations.

To underline one of the reasons Israel is taking these new missiles more seriously, there is another picture of Hamas's missile history:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/images/hamas-rockets-2012-1-m.jpg (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm)

As you can see, they represent a big step up from the rockets that have been lobbed over the border up until now.
I wouldn't be surprised if this rocket has a lot to do with the indications that Israel is intending to go in with ground forces to root the stockpiles out.

The strikes, considering mission count to kill count, have been very surgical...however when the ground troops go in, it's going to likely get messy. The last time (2007-2008) had a range of nearly 1,500 fatalities, mostly Palestinian.

It's a Catch-22 situation, if Israel doesn't go in, then it's a long old air based slug with the political tide against it, there will be more pictures of dead children and more Fajr rockets for Iron Dome to practice with. If it does go in then it's going to be even more piles of dead children for CNN and more support for the Palestinians.
Hamas, on the other hand knows that Israel is coming, but hopes it can ensnare it in the streets of Gaza, this will end badly for Hamas but Hamas doesn't care because it will gain global support via the media.

For Israel, it depends on not having pictures of dead Israelis broadcast around the world, because if that happens then it has failed to protect its people, so that means a very one sided death count which makes for very good teatime broadcasts.

This conflict has been going on since at least October, but has only just started making headlines after the intensity ramped up. Rocket attacks across the border are a common occurance, and Hamas is pretty good at firing rockets from next to nice civilian targets, so when the retaliatory missile comes in, it takes out a Mosque, or a school, or a hospital.

No matter what Israel does, it's going to lose in some way. They are fighting people who don't play by the same rules that they do.

Red Brow

11-20-12, 02:04 AM

I realize now that as for Gaza I was still thinking along the lines of 2007. This is just more proof that Israel was not keeping up as it would have back in the 60s. Iron Dome now seems more like Iron Doom. I can see why Ahmadinejad says Israel is finished. If Israel can't fight its way out of these wet paper bags, how is it ever going to deal with Iran? This isn't the Israel that always stayed ahead of the curve. The youth in Israel are getting tired of all this. I still recall how Israeli tankers were shown by news crying when Israel's push into Lebanon discovered that their enemy had build vast complexes of underground bunkers that resembled the Japanese strongholds on Iwo Jima.

Israel doesn't seem to have its old flare for intel.

Catfish

11-20-12, 04:58 AM

^ Oh, Israel has. It is just not so easy to fight and win a house-to-house fighting in a civilian area, than to win a war against military forces on an open battlefield.
And you have to win this war in the media ..

And b.t.w. the 'Stuka' was quite a good plane, for its time and purpose.
Valentin Mikula's "Stuka" gives an excellent idea of plane and pilots.

Red Brow

11-20-12, 06:16 AM

Yeah, it was always one of my favorites to build models of - the Stuka. In films I always loved its siren, the Jericho-Trompete. It was such an IN YOUR FACE concept! It was like: 'The Stukas are over your head and diving down! What are you doing to do about it?'

You know back in the late 70s when so-called Vietnamese boat people were arriving in America, at my place of work at the time - a medical supplier - we had an old Vietnamese guy who admitted to me (after I became his friend) that he was from North Vietnam and he got going on during one lunch break about what the B52 attacks had been like in the north. He didn't say outright, but did imply that he had been somehow involved in anti-aircraft. The thing I will always remember was that he stated that every time a massive wave of B52s was coming on, that all the anti-aircraft guys would start crapping in their pants and had piss running down their legs before the 52s reached their position.

We never used such numbers of B52s in our mid-east or Afghanistan wars - but of course our foes in those locations had a healthy respect for our big bombers. But the Vietnamese saw large formations of those machines over the years of the bombings.

Gerald

11-20-12, 07:22 AM

Israel has put plans for a ground operation in Gaza "on hold" to give talks to secure a truce with Hamas militants a chance, officials say.

It is understood Israel has set a Thursday deadline for the Egypt-brokered talks to succeed.

It seems like an attack from the ground can come in days,:hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20404589

Note: Update record, 20 November 2012 Last updated at 11:58 GMT

Takeda Shingen

11-20-12, 10:19 AM

STEED

11-20-12, 10:48 AM

It's a Catch-22 situation, if Israel doesn't go in, then it's a long old air based slug with the political tide against it, there will be more pictures of dead children and more Fajr rockets for Iron Dome to practice with. If it does go in then it's going to be even more piles of dead children for CNN and more support for the Palestinians.
Hamas, on the other hand knows that Israel is coming, but hopes it can ensnare it in the streets of Gaza, this will end badly for Hamas but Hamas doesn't care because it will gain global support via the media.

And that's just it. Hamas knows it cannot win the physical war. Rather, it looks to win the PR war. The real downside for Israel, and the way that that could lose is that Hamas will clearly take every collateral loss of life and parade it in front of the cameras for the entire world to see.

Hamas is like the Hydra, cut one head off another two grow in its place. As TS has pointed out they are winning the PR War, more deaths on both sides the better. They as in opposition back then in 1948 had their chance when the State of Israel was founded, they lost and Israel did not have tanks back then. Israel is here to stay so Hamas and the rest should damn well live with it and move forward in a positive way and not what they are doing now.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 11:28 AM

I reckon Israel will move into Gaza by the weekend unless all rocket attacks cease and even then how long would a truce last for?

Oberon

11-20-12, 12:41 PM

It's a race against time for Israel, since the longer this goes on, the more the PR war turns against them. There might be one more big raid but I think that the ceasefire may come into effect for a few days, and it'll give Israel a chance to mark out more targets for the continuation of operations once the ceasefire is inevitably broken by one side or the other.

Israels situation is pretty dire now, as one person emailing the BBC from the US put it:

Israel must look for a long-term solution now. After the Arab Spring, they may not have many good friends in the region left. They risk coming under attack in the future. So a long-term solution is now vital for them.

Unfortunately for the most part, the only long term solution that many of Israels neighbours will accept is the total deconstruction of Israel. So, whatever Israel does now or in the future, it will be pyrrhic, they may achieve their goals but they will only isolate themselves further.
You couldn't pay me to be an Israeli leader right now. :yep:

Tribesman

11-20-12, 12:47 PM

I reckon Israel will move into Gaza by the weekend
But then what?
Since the first call up of reservists MKs have been demanding an actual plan from the government, more importantly they are demanding an exit plan as well, they all know occupation doesn't work.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 12:56 PM

They'd probably go for the rocket stockpiles they know about but can't get at because they're in places such as underground bunkers below schools etc.

Next possibly the workshops that produce them then finally, withdraw.

The above should see a lull in the number of rocket attacks and when they eventually resume as no doubt they will then public opinion would or should be back on their side.

Repeat, spin and wash etc. etc.

Tribesman

11-20-12, 01:12 PM

Repeat, spin and wash etc. etc.
The problem there is not only the very high cost of the repeats but also the increasingly severe impact on the economy. They have already pulled nearly 8 times as many people out of work this time as last time.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 01:26 PM

I don't see them having anyother choice....survival is key and they don't have all that many friends atm and those they do have aren't doing much 'publicly'.

Takeda Shingen

11-20-12, 01:41 PM

eddie

11-20-12, 02:00 PM

Not very good PR for Hamas in this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/hamas-kills-suspected-col_n_2165236.html?utm_hp_ref=world

Armistead

11-20-12, 02:24 PM

Maybe it is their only option, but sending forces across the border is also exactly what Hamas wants them to do. Then they can claim that Israel is violating the 2005 agreement and rally others in support of themselves. This is really a no-win for Israel.

It's never about a win for Israel, just keeping terror groups in check. It seems slowly Hamas is gaining power, getting more of what they want with each conflict.

If Israel gives in and stops it's blockade, the rockets and weapons will pour in for the next conflict.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 03:04 PM

Local radio here in north east UK are saying a ceasefire is looking more likely.

Tribesman

11-20-12, 03:21 PM

If Israel gives in and stops it's blockade, the rockets and weapons will pour in for the next conflict.
Yet if Israel maintains its blockade rockets and weapons still pour in plus Hamas makes a fortune running the black market.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 03:24 PM

Won't be many marketplaces left if Israel send in ground troops :)

mapuc

11-20-12, 03:37 PM

I do not know who trustworthy this story is, it's from RT

http://rt.com/usa/news/us-navy-order-conflict-178/

Markus

Oberon

11-20-12, 03:39 PM

The trouble is, the border with Egypt is even more porous than it used to be now that Egypt has a new government which is more pro-Palestinian than the last. So it's going to be even easier to get weapons across into the Gaza strip than before.
For Israel the Arab Spring was a real game changer, it's like the region has been reset to a point just after the Yom Kippor war with a hostile Egypt in the Sinai. The only good thing at the moment for Israel is that Syria is too busy tearing itself apart to consider joining with Egypt for another bash at the Six Day War. That and there are a whole myriad of alliances in the Middle East that are either tolerant of Israel or outright hostile. It's a mess, but until Mubarak fell, Israel could count on Egypt keeping the border secure.

Not now, and that's going to make things difficult for them.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 03:52 PM

Don't forget though, unlike the time Egypt, Syria et al attacked Israel she is better equipped and now has the nuclear option if being overwhelmed is a possibility.

I do agree though...the region is in a right bloody mess.

Takeda Shingen

11-20-12, 04:08 PM

It's never about a win for Israel, just keeping terror groups in check. It seems slowly Hamas is gaining power, getting more of what they want with each conflict.

If Israel gives in and stops it's blockade, the rockets and weapons will pour in for the next conflict.

It is about a win for Israel. Such a win eliminates the possibility of rockets raining down or their cities. That is the condition for victory. I am confident in saying that regardless of the course of action, that victory, peace, will be impossible.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 05:00 PM

It is about a win for Israel. Such a win eliminates the possibility of rockets raining down or their cities. That is the condition for victory. I am confident in saying that regardless of the course of action, that victory, peace, will be impossible.

I doubt there will ever be peace in the region but hope the US in particular remains supportive of Israel....inevitable I suppose considering the size of the Jewish electorate in the US.

Politics....don't you just love it :)

August

11-20-12, 06:28 PM

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/486249_218593208273865_1459801823_n.jpg

Armistead

11-20-12, 06:38 PM

Yet if Israel maintains its blockade rockets and weapons still pour in plus Hamas makes a fortune running the black market.

I wasn't aware Hamas led a black market, thought they just stockpiled weapons smuggled from Iran and Libya.

I know they're talking, but I see a ground war coming.

Anyway, the Mid-East will remain a stain on the undergarments of society. You can never have peace there with all the radical Islamic groups.

Jimbuna

11-20-12, 06:53 PM

I wasn't aware Hamas led a black market, thought they just stockpiled weapons smuggled from Iran and Libya.

I know they're talking, but I see a ground war coming.

Anyway, the Mid-East will remain a stain on the undergarments of society. You can never have peace there with all the radical Islamic groups.

Eventually Israel will clean the 'undergarments of society' but I'm not sure that is the best outcome/eventuality.

Skybird

11-20-12, 07:17 PM

I do not hide my view of Turkey being a very underhanded actor since Erdoghan I. and his fundamentalists took the crown. Now they have gotten a deal with NATO to send Patriots to the border with Syria.

This comes at a time when Erdoghan again fires hate-dripping broadsides against Israel, just having called it a terrorist regime and the Gaza war an attempt of ethnic cleanings, and an attemopt to wipe out the Palestinians.

Unforgotten is his underhanded action about the Gaza flotilla, the provoking of a naval incident, his denial of international law supporting Israel establishing and reasons given for a blockade, his demands for Western action against Israel, his provoking of a incident that led to the Syrian shooting down a Turkish fighter penetrating into Syrian airspace.

I fear he is trying to bring NATO and the Eu into the whole mess against Israel by declaring a case of defence against Syria and thus demanding NATO to defend Turkey, but in fact, at least politically, wanting to push the West into his crusade against Israel.

As I see it, he is a constant liarm cheater and provocateur, and he is even more danewgrous now since the Arab Spring has costed Turkey dearly in influence in the Muslim world, influence that he wants to gain back by lobby<ing against the Jews. which is a natural choice, since Islam is absolutely racist and anti-Jewish/anti-Christian anyway and accepts to tolerate them only when they are on their knees, submissive and obedient.

Syria has not threatened to attack or invade or strike at Turkey in seriousness. No according propaganda. No warnings. The few shots fired into Turkey, were aimed at Syrian revolutionaries retreating into the border region.

It is also known that Turkey wants access to more modern weapons systems, with Patriots being high on their list - it could help them to threaten Israel's air force if it ever strikes at Iran or Northern Syria, and plans approach routes close to the Turkish border. I fear that once Syria comes to rest and the "threat" is gone, those Patriots will be agreed to be left in Turkey, simply.

Heck, it was allright during the cold war to have Turkey in NATO, they were reliable and solid indeed. But that was a Turkey politically differently oriented, and not driven by this damn AKP and its great Führer. The fundamentalists have turned it all into a totally different ballgame. I now hate to have Turkey still in NATO. It will bring serious trouble in the future. If not now, then in the future. Feel free to take me by my word: Turkey will bring NATO into a major crisis sooner or later.

The US hopelessly misjudges its conflict with Egypt and Turkey. Thus it will repeat the mistakes it does with Pakistan: pay the potentially enemy on and on and on and on to buy his "loyalty". That would work if the Us gives up Israel. Will it? Well, in the past US support for Israel was engraved in solid granite. But I think it has been changed against a wooden block recently. Still a solid block, hard and durable. But not as hard and solid anymore as granite. And a wooden block is easier to be lifted and carried away to be replaced with something of rubber, than a granite rock.

Takeda Shingen

11-20-12, 07:32 PM

I doubt there will ever be peace in the region but hope the US in particular remains supportive of Israel....inevitable I suppose considering the size of the Jewish electorate in the US.

This is where I would disagree to some extent. I recognize Israel's right to exist. I also acknowledge the importance of Israel to defend itself from these attacks. Israel must act, and it is acting. However, I do not feel that our countries (the US and Israel) should be tethered together as Israel proceeds down this road. This is a regional conflict, and as with most of those I don't feel that the US should get involved. This is something that needs to play out, and I believe that a lot of the problem comes from the fact that we don't let it play out.

geetrue

11-20-12, 08:09 PM

I doubt there will ever be peace in the region but hope the US in particular remains supportive of Israel....inevitable I suppose considering the size of the Jewish electorate in the US.

Politics....don't you just love it :)

I am still very pissed off about the USS Liberty being mistaken for an egyptian warship, but I also have to forgive according to my faith.

It is a true fact however that if the protection of the United States of America were removed from Israel ... they would only last as long as it would take for their enemies to triumph over them and push them into the sea.

A world without Israel is intolerable to me (no smilie)

Tribesman

11-21-12, 02:43 AM

I wasn't aware Hamas led a black market, thought they just stockpiled weapons smuggled from Iran and Libya.

Whoever controls the smuggling controls the black market.
But look on the bright side, Hamas can no longer charge a premium on such things as paper, crockery, light bulbs and pasta as those items are no longer banned.

Gerald

11-21-12, 07:58 AM

At least 10 people have been injured in an explosion on a bus in Israel's commercial capital, Tel Aviv.

One Israeli official said the blast, near the military headquarters, was a "terrorist attack".

After the incident, huge blasts were heard in Gaza, in an apparent Israeli strike on the football stadium, while militants fired more rockets at Israel.

International efforts to broker a truce between Hamas and Israel after eight days of exchanges are continuing.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon are in the region.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

Note: Update record, 21 November 2012 Last updated at 12:09 GMT

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 08:18 AM

This is where I would disagree to some extent. I recognize Israel's right to exist. I also acknowledge the importance of Israel to defend itself from these attacks. Israel must act, and it is acting. However, I do not feel that our countries (the US and Israel) should be tethered together as Israel proceeds down this road. This is a regional conflict, and as with most of those I don't feel that the US should get involved. This is something that needs to play out, and I believe that a lot of the problem comes from the fact that we don't let it play out.

I am still very pissed off about the USS Liberty being mistaken for an egyptian warship, but I also have to forgive according to my faith.

It is a true fact however that if the protection of the United States of America were removed from Israel ... they would only last as long as it would take for their enemies to triumph over them and push them into the sea.

A world without Israel is intolerable to me (no smilie)

I would imagine the US would help if Israel was facing annihilation but how soon and at what level is obviously unknown.

The same can probably be said for the UK and South Korea plus a few more countries possibly but I doubt it will come to that this time.

Whilst negotiations are ongoing there is always hope for some can of peace in the region.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 10:25 AM

This latest bomb attack on a bus in Tel Aviv is only going to hamper negotiation and give Israel more perceived justification to cross into Gaza.

Gerald

11-21-12, 10:59 AM

A plausible explanation for a possible ceasefire, to be canceled.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 11:03 AM

More likely the reason for a ground invasion to become a reality.

Gerald

11-21-12, 11:08 AM

I think,Israel is waiting probably a few days with this,to be sure if any negotiations are on the table.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 11:19 AM

Thursday...tomorrow.

Skybird

11-21-12, 11:46 AM

Turkey now indeed has formally asked for Patriots.

Patriots are for intercepting medium-range missiles, long rangers, and not-treetop-flying planes. They are not meant to intercept low-flying artillery-missiles of short range.

In other words, militarily there is no reason why they want Patriots. Or do they seriously think that Assad on his last days will fire his Scuds against Turkish cities, instead of his own?

Or again in other words, Turkey is cooking its own soup, and probably wants to have NATO's umbrella spanning over it while it does something offensive, like entering the war, pulling Europe into it too, or confronting Israel.

If Turkey enters the Syrian war, those Patriots should be withdrawn. It is no case of self-defence then.

On the Syrian opposition, it is stupid to support them, rightout stupid. The manjupor influence amongst it is by Iran. Iran now is runnign the show. And gets supported by the West, with france and Britain already having recognised it.

The good-doers never learn it! :haha: :har: Maybe its genetic.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 11:55 AM

Tribesman

11-21-12, 12:07 PM

Let me see if I understand this latest Skybull correctly .
Iran is running the Syrian opposition which is mainly sunni and includes sunni elements who have fled Iranian dominated Iraq, it is doing this because errrr....it backs Assad is allied with his government and has his government supporting their long term regional proxies.
Typical Skybull:doh:
Maybe it is genetic:rotfl2:

Skybird

11-21-12, 12:09 PM

Well let us hope if it does come to serious conflict the neighbouring countries keep out of it.

I suspect some will obviously see it as an opportunity for easy pickings.

We are talking Gaza conflict here, right?

Iran, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia - it is all linked together, none of these are isolated events indepedently happening from the others. And Iran dances on all these parties. Gaza is an Israeli-Iranian proxy war. Note, it was an Iranian factory and weapon storage in Sudan that got the Israelis scrambling, if StratFor's analysis got it right. Iran arms and trains Hamas and Hezbollah. RG commandos are active in Lebanon and Gaza, mostly as trainers and tactical advisors.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 12:23 PM

I'm not sure I'd agree that all the conflicts in the region are linked together because the first thing that strikes me is the fact there are many different factions involved who have opposed each other for centuries.

I try to take a simpler fundamental view....the different countries/people etc. are tired of being ruled by elitist individuals/tribes and want their share of the wealth and freedom they have seen won elsewhere.

Oberon

11-21-12, 12:44 PM

Ceasefire has apparently been agreed upon.

Start the clock, let's see how long this lasts... :hmmm:

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 12:54 PM

Ceasefire has apparently been agreed upon.

Start the clock, let's see how long this lasts... :hmmm:

Indeed.....3, 2, 1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699

Takeda Shingen

11-21-12, 12:55 PM

It'll last until the next rocket gets fired from Gaza.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 03:09 PM

Well the ceasefire is about an hour old and there have been no further incidents reported.

I've still got an uneasy feeling but only time will tell:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699

Gerald

11-21-12, 04:35 PM

Personally,I look cautiously towards a permanent ceasefire,unfortunately.

Jimbuna

11-21-12, 04:52 PM

It'll last until the next rocket gets fired from Gaza.

I'll cover your bet/hunch :03:

Skybird

11-21-12, 05:25 PM

Hamas was unable to control the independent militias immediately before the Israeli attack began. If these militias now agree to honour the Hamas deal, then I can imagine only two explanations: either Israel has hurt these militias more seriously than i would have thought possible by airstrikes alone (both their pool of commanders and fighters, and their rocket arsenals), or these militias got bribed by paying them money. Surely they invest that money into education, books, and schools.

One year after the Lebanon war ended, Hezbollah was reported to be even more intensely armed with bazookas, ATGMs and missiles, than before the 2006 war broke out.

And Hamas says part of the deal with Israel now is that they open the border between Gaza and Egypt.

What was this old saying? After the war is before the war, something like that? Iran is still there, playing, training, delivering, supporting. And Turkey is still there, agitating.

A seize fire - is only a temporary measure. It helps Hamas and Iran much more than Israel.

Skybird

11-21-12, 06:25 PM

The German Handelsblatt has just reported (by referring to Israeli police speakers) that the seize fire already has been broken. Palestinians fired over a dozen rockets over the border and into Israel. Iron Dome shot down several of them. That should have happened at around 2000 MET.

So much for having weakened the militias sufficiently, or having payed them sufficient money.

Oberon

11-21-12, 07:33 PM

Either that or they'll take to blowing up buses in Israel again.

IDF spokesman says that there's been at least two launches and several interceptions since the ceasefire went into effect. However that is, quite honestly, a normal level for the area and about the level that's been going on for most of this year. Whether or not Israel uses this as a reason to retaliate is entirely up to Israel, I don't think they will since they will want to have wrapped this up and be ready for the Iranian operations soon now that the C3 of Hamas has been disrupted. Of course, the problem with such organisations is that a) it's not just Hamas in the strip, and b) there's a lot of leeway at the lower levels, so if Israel does hit Iran, there will be a major bout of rocket launches from the Strip...however, Iron Dome has done a good job of intercepting the worst of the barrage, which is perhaps part of the reason for this, a test run to see how well Iron Dome will cope under a sustained conflict.

Now, we just wait to see a) how long this ceasefire lasts and b) when Israel will hit Iran.

eddie

11-21-12, 07:44 PM

This is an interesting read as to why Hezbollah has been sitting this one out between Israel and Hamas. I've been surprised that its been quiet on Israels northern border.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/why-hezbollah-is-sitting-on-40000-rockets-and-missiles-and-sitting-out-the-gaza-conflict

Jimbuna

11-22-12, 05:45 AM

So far so good...the Israeli military said three rockets had been fired from Gaza since the ceasefire came into effect, two of which were shot down by the Iron Dome defence system. It said there had been no fire in either direction since midnight.

Skybird

11-22-12, 07:03 AM

LINK: The Arab world's all-purpose enemy (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/08/04/george-jonas-lets-hear-it-for-israel-the-arab-worlds-all-purpose-enemy/)

Jimbuna

11-22-12, 07:16 AM

The Arab Spring is an attempt to return the region to its roots. It’s not to Westernize the Middle East and make it more democratic; it’s to Easternize it and make it more Islamic. If the early 20th century was about the East trying to join what it couldn’t lick, the early 21st may be about the East trying to lick what it hasn’t been able to join.

So it looks like there will never be an end to the violence in the region.

Gerald

11-22-12, 10:43 AM

People in Gaza and southern Israel are starting to return to normal life following Wednesday's ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

A number of rockets were fired from Gaza in the first few hours of the truce, but Israel did not respond.

However, Israeli schools close to the Gaza Strip were kept closed on Thursday as a precaution.

Return to the "normal" it is hardly something that is so easy...

Note: Update,record 22 November 2012 Last updated at 15:10 GMT

Herr-Berbunch

11-22-12, 11:09 AM

Alex

11-22-12, 11:40 AM

@ Herr-Berbunch : Hahaha ! :up:

Tribesman

11-22-12, 12:05 PM

But you can't say that -

Of course you can.
However if you do it while ranting in favour of crazy 1930s politicians or moaning about global jewish conspiracies and jewish control of the media while posting about the "merits" of vile 1920s bigotry you will get labelled as an Alex.

11-22-12, 12:10 PM

When you look at the loss of Palestinian land in the last 60-odd years it's very easy to see reasons for Palestinians wanting to keep fighting the US-supported bully boys.

But you can't say that -

http://liverpoolfriendsofpalestine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/y1pyftrb1mqqgdajihgwkrffrx2l5a8iqzxdoems92qhqyvx8e x3io9v2rixrhk3ua9yseqscp7vfarqa7uhos3lg.jpg

Nice pic...you think this is the case or is it that peaple like you and Alex want to belive it.
As for the rest...try to put all the facts together.By the shalow rhetorics you use it seems you are quite happy with what you got.
It does not necessery put you in antisemite category...ignorant would be a good start , possibly.
Also it is well known that so called crticism of Israel is a work around for many antisemites...or ,anti zionists, or whatever...peaple with some issues.

Skybird

11-22-12, 12:15 PM

Egypt's Mursi strengthens his democratic ruling:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20451208

America hails him and pays him.

Don't complain. It is democracy, stupid!

Alex

11-22-12, 12:46 PM

Well, it would seem that you definitely learned from himOh dear you should have kept quiet there mr "christian".
The bigoted jew hating trash little alex spouts is exactly the same as from those wonderful "christians" you stuck up for

Don't forget he hates america as well as jews, though of course as he says the global jewish conspiracy runs not only america but all the worlds media it wouldn't matter if it was atlantic or antarctic.
That is right !
But you forgot to tell him all my victims indeed are americans :stare:. I don't know why, but these days my sole satisfaction is to see all the John Waynes being bled, and then to masturbate as I stare at their obese carcasses.
Don't know what to do, man. I told my doctor about that, who is also an exorcist. To break the spell, he said I should celebrate one black mass on a black moon night, cleaning my scalp with the mucus of a publicly chastised and emasculated Irish mule previously beheaded and quartered. :88)

God has had His problems with this are before

Their land reached from Sidon to Gerar as far as Gaza, and then to Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

Deut 2:23 The Cretan people came from Crete and destroyed the Avvites, who lived in towns all the way to Gaza; the Cretans destroyed them and took their place.)

Josh 10:41 Joshua captured all the cities from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza, and from Goshen to Gibeon.

Josh 11:22 There were no Anakites left living in the land of the Israelites and only a few were left in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod.

Judg 1:18 The men of Judah captured Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, and the lands around them.

Judg 6:4 They camped in the land and destroyed the crops that the Israelites had planted as far away as Gaza. They left nothing for Israel to eat, and no sheep, cattle, or donkeys.

Judg 16:1 One day Samson went to Gaza and saw a prostitute there. He went in to spend the night with her.

Judg 16:2 When the people of Gaza heard, ***8220;Samson has come here!***8221; they surrounded the place and waited for him near the city gate all night. They whispered to each other, ***8220;When dawn comes, we will kill Samson!***8221;

1 Kings 4:24 Solomon controlled all the countries west of the Euphrates River***8212;the land from Tiphsah to Gaza. And he had peace on all sides of his kingdom.

2 Kings 18:8 Hezekiah defeated the Philistines all the way to Gaza and its borders, including the watchtowers and the strong, walled cities.

Jer 47:5 The people from the city of Gaza will be sad and shave their heads. The people from the city of Ashkelon will be made silent. Those left alive from the valley, how long will you cut yourselves?

Amos 1:6 This is what the Lord says: ***8220;For the many crimes of Gaza, I will punish them. They sold all the people of one area as slaves to Edom.

Amos 1:7 So I will send a fire on the walls of Gaza that will destroy the city***8217;s strong buildings

Zeph 2:4 No one will be left in the city of Gaza, and the city of Ashkelon will be destroyed. Ashdod will be empty by noon, and the people of Ekron will be chased away.

Zech 9:5 The city of Ashkelon will see it and be afraid. The people of Gaza will shake with fear, and the people of Ekron will lose hope. No king will be left in Gaza, and no one will live in Ashkelon anymore.

I am still very pissed off about the USS Liberty being mistaken for an egyptian warship, but I also have to forgive according to my faith.

It is a true fact however that if the protection of the United States of America were removed from Israel ... they would only last as long as it would take for their enemies to triumph over them and push them into the sea.

A world without Israel is intolerable to me (no smilie)

:har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har:
Well, let's get back to the facts, if you please.
@ you citizen of the united states of America : I just want you to be aware of the fact that I definitely make a difference between you good people who live there, and your institutions and government. Yet it's trendy to be anti-american these days, just be aware that you are brothers to me.
Let's bring this discussion to the next level.
When you ask anyone what he thinks about this conflict ?
Absolutely no one knows what to reply exactly.
"Should I stand up for or against Israel ? Do Palestinians really are these beasts portrayed in the american media ? What am I going to look like standing up for one or the other ?"
(@ Takeda :D : no more atlanticist nor occidental, but american for the time being )

Absolutely no one knows what to say.
On one side of the conflict : Israel, the state created after the 2nd world war, in order to protect the Jewish/Chosen People from any threat.
On the other side : the local people from Palestine, demons with a hooked nose who burst out laughing at every corner of Gaza streets while carrying rocket launchers, according to the north american media (@ Takeda :D : but you can say western, occidental, etc. if you like), who have one and only interest in mind : getting Israel wiped off the map.
@ Takeda :D : I'm going to let this vocabulary matter aside for now, I'm already tired about that, ya know. But don't hesitate to question my humble knowledge when it comes to your language, if that's got any importance in your opinion.

I think this ignorance from most people has been created by the western media. Western media are probably the best ones (according to themselves), and yet we realize most people don't know the important details. I think it's due to an israeli propaganda operation, which goal is to let all people think what they like about this conflict, in order for everyone to be free to stand up for the one he likes the most, without being aware of the real situation.

And in fact, regarding those who stand up for the rights of the Palestinian People to live, I would say many of them are afraid of having to face their local Tribesman who would start making stupidly insulting public utterances such as "Oh you dumb antisemitic neo nazi !", in a very sonorous way. Hahaha. While the good Tribesman is a very kind guy, there is also a good amount of manipulative people who would be able to trap you in their rhetoric, making you look like a antisomewhat or neo-something in a matter of minutes, if you don't know what you're speaking about.

Well, let's deconstruct a part of what you get to hear about those Jews you should respect whatever they do due to the fact that they suffered so much during world war 2 according to Tribesman and others, if you wish. :yeah:
The state of Israel was created in response to the jewish genocide that took place in Europe during the second world war.
That is completely wrong. In fact, it is indeed a colonial project that is older than that, since it was created at the Basel congress, in 1897, where the jewish nationalist movement stated it's going to colonize Palestine (at the time the "colonialism" word is indeed used, and is not considered at all as a shameful thing). At the time, zionists realise their little nationalist movement is a small thing, so they ask for help to many old colonialist strenght. They asked for help to the Turkish Empire. Not interested in bringing any help. But the British Empire was very interested, because the British Empire was willing to have settlers on that soil, in order to stay in the middle of the Arabic world, between the western and eastern part of it. The British Empire forces wanted to weaken Egypt that was a troubling power to them, they wanted to control the Suez channel that is the way towards the Indian colony through which they were making a lot of money. Then, the united states of America took over that role, what they were interested in at the time is oil, so they wanted to get an oil cop there.
And so, that colonial creation called Israel was definitely not created after the second world war, but it's a colonial project indeed. You've got to consider the fact that, at the time, european colonial strenght share Africa just like a big cake, following a Berlin conference in 1885 featuring England, France, Portugal, Belgium, Germany. Of course, no African people was invited to that conference, we were right in the colonial time. Israel is a colonial project, I've got to say it again.
Yes, but Jews, you know, in fact, they just want to get back to their homeland from which they were expelled by the Roman Empire in 70 after Jesus Christ.
A great myth once again. According to Shlomo Sand, historian, who's got to talk to Israeli historians and archaeologists, everyone says there never was any exodus of the Jews, so there just can't be a so-called "return" of the Jews on that soil. Of course there were invasions, migrations, and so there were ethnic mixes. But for the most part, the local population didn't move from the area. And so there are 2 ironic consequences to that : the first is that, after all, descendants of the Jews who lived in the area at the time of Christ indeed are Palestinians who live there today ; and the second consequence is that IF there ever were people who left the area, who are those people saying they "get back" ? In fact they are no more than converted people, people coming from western and eastern Europe, as well as North African people, who did convert to Judaism at some times throughout History, and like Shlomo Sand says, the Jewish People just doesn't exist : there is no common history, no common language, no common culture, only one faith, but one faith is not a sufficient parameter to consider people as one and the same ethnic group. We don't talk about the Catholic people, nor about the Muslim people, and so we can't talk about the Jewish people.
Yes, you know, but there is nothing seriously wrong with the fact that they chose to settle there, it was a land without people, an empty area.
A total lie once again.
In fact, those who were familiar with the area throughout the XIX century just said that Palestine literally is an ocean of wheat. There was cultivation, and quite some exportation to France in particular, oil, soap, the famous Jaffa oranges, and by the way, when the British settlers (and Jewish settlers) wanted to settle in the area from 1920 on, Palestinian farmers refused to give them their land, and so there were revolts, general strikes, protests with many deaths, at some time there even was a guerilla in Palestine, so Palestine was all BUT a desert, and it all has got to be shattered through very very ferocious repressions from the British occupying power, and from the zionists later.
And also, we are told that yes that's true, after all, there were Palestinians in the area, but they left the area as they wanted to.
That also is wrong.
For some time I've been thinking it really was the case, many people still think it was, and that's got to be the official version of the country. Until the day those who are considered as the new Israeli historians (Benny Morris, Pappe, and others) said no, Palestinians indeed have been forced off their land through violence, through terror, systematically getting expelled from their country, in order to empty that soil from its inhabitants.
That is for the historic part of it all.
There is also what you get to hear about the country nowadays.
Anyways, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle-East, and so we've got to defend it, since it is a legally constituted state.
Well. First and foremost, it's not a legally constituted state, it is the only state in the world which constitution doesn't specify boundaries of the national territory. In all countries in the world, there is a constitution saying well, our land starts there, it ends there, and that is our land. In all countries, BUT the one we're talking about, since Israel is an expansion project without boundaries. Furthermore - poor Tribesman :haha:-, that constitution is totally racist, since it says that Israel is the land of the Jews, which means that other people are underclass citizen. The concept of Untermenschen created by Friedrich Nietzsche is indeed an integral part of that constitution, haha. And so, such a constitution is the very-negation of democracy. So Israel is absolutely not a democracy, in fact this state is the definition of the "colonialism" word, the theft of a territory, the erasing of a people from his land, it just CAN'T be considered as a democracy.
Yet you'll hear that there is a parliament there, and media, as well as many university teachers criticising their state. That is true. But, since it's a state based on the theft of land, that means it's a democracy for thieves, of which the only reason for existence for them is to know how they'll be able to steal more and more land. That is no democracy. It's still colonialism, and it's still a dictature.
Also, when it comes to the united states of America, I've got to hear that they defend this little state in the Middle East as what they're interested in is to defend the concept of Democracy in the Middle-East. Every year, they bring something like 3 billion dollars on the table in terms of military armaments in order to help Israel bomb and attack its neighbours, fine, isn't it.
Well, if the united states of America really were interested in democracy, people would know about that. The united states of America are indeed the authority that put in place and protects those terrific dictatures from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
And so the real interest of the united states of America in the defense of Israel is not democracy at all. This state is their oil cop, it was admitted by Mr Chomsky and others. In fact, the united states of America want to keep absolute control over the oil, and so over the Middle East. They want to tear down any country that would not accept to give away its oil for free, we've got to see that through the Irak war and through other assaults. But, well, the united states of America just can't keep attacking all Middle East countries they don't like, and so they need to get what Chomsky calls their local cop in the area, and Israel is that local cop.
Decades ago, the united states of America had the Shah of Iran, an horrible dictature they imposed in the area, following the overthrowing of the elected Iranian prime minister in 1953, Mossadegh, and so they did establish that dictature in the area.
But they lost control over Iran, and now the only thing that remains is Israel. And that is why the united states of America protect Israel, while this little state violates international laws, violates the United Nations conventions, violates the equality between human beings. And so it is very clear that what gets to be achieved there is definitely an economic war.
When it comes to Europe, now. Europe pretends to be more neutral, seeking a solution to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
That is absolutely wrong. Solana, who was the EU's minister of foreign affairs, recently told Israel "you are in fact the 28th country that is part of the European Union". The european armament industry is indeed financing and cooperating with the israeli armament industry.
In France we've got people like Lagardere and Dassault, who are very close to Sarkozy, collaborating with the israeli armament industry. And in addition to that, when Palestinians elected their own government, the european union refused to acknowledge it, the european union obviously gave the go-ahead to Israel to bomb Gaza, and thus, it is very obvious that when Netanyahu, Barak, Olmert, etc. bomb Palestinian territories, those who are responsible for that are our european governments. That is something I wanted to say.

So what ?
So when you start saying this kind of thing publicly, when you speak about the real History of this little state, when you just show the outrageous interests of the united states of America and of the european union in this conflict, there comes your local puppet trumpeting his own values, and starts insulting you saying you're an antisemite, a neo nazi, a racist, etc.
Hahaha.
One thing must be very clear to everyone.
When you criticize the israeli government, you're not an anti-jew racist, quite the contrary, in fact, you just criticize a government denying the equality between human beings, between Jews and Muslims. And so, you just want peace to appear in the Middle East between Jews, Catholics, Muslims and lay people. And that is the reason why the israeli government and its crimes must be brought to a halt, as the only thing it does is spreading the hate, and spreading the hate as well as tensions is indeed its strategy.
Yes, but you know, Palestinians are violent, they are terrorists, etc.
I'd like to say one thing. The real violence is colonialism, embodied by the israeli occupying army that stole their land and houses to Palestinians since 60 years. The real violence is the israeli army that prevents Palestinians from having a normal life - you've got checkpoints between your house and your workplace, sometimes you have to be patient and wait for quite some time at those checkpoints, many pregnant women died due to the fact that they were stuck at those checkpoints by the arbitrary authority of israeli soldiers, so the real violence is the occupation.
And one more thing. The United Nations, in its fundamental texts, legally recognizes the right of any colonized people to resist by all means who are acceptable in their opinion. So, the palestinian resistance is definitely legitimate, and the real violence is the occupation, period.
Also, in the opinion of many people, the problem is that this conflict will never be solved, due to the fact that there's too much hatred created by the deliberate spread of tensions by Israel and countries supporting that state.
There is a solution to this problem, definitely. Since the mid sixties, major palestinian organisations suggest a very simple and very democratic solution for this problem : one and only state, without any discrimination, where there would be a concept of equal rights between Jews, Muslims, Christians, and lay people. That would be the very-definition of democracy, "one person, one vote". But Israel has always refused to negotiate that solution, and what did it do, well recently it's got to put in jail and kill not only some Hamas leaders, but also leaders from the PFLP and Fatah, so this little state just refuses to negotiate an obvious solution, why ? Well I must say it again I guess : Israel is the oil cop of the united states of America in the Middle East, and so that war is an economic war, a war about oil, a war about multinationals, and the only thing that can bring it all to a stop is the pressure from all citizen in Europe, in Latin America, in Africa, in the Middle East and basically everywhere, a pressure on our political leaders who are willing participants to this miserable war, a pressure on media that just don't say the truth.
May everyone pass on the information in order to restore the truth, to unmask grotesque lies legitimizing the existence of this little state. If we all apply this idea, we're all kind of journalists, and we'll indeed come up to a solution pretty quickly, a possibility of negotiations in order to restore peace in the Middle East.

Oberon

11-22-12, 12:50 PM

Nice pic...you think this is the case or is it that peaple like you and Alex want to belive it.
As for the rest...try to put all the facts together.By the shalow rhetorics you use it seems you are quite happy with what you got.
It does not necessery put you in antisemite category...ignorant would be a good start , possibly.
Also it is well known that so called crticism of Israel is a work around for many antisemites...or ,anti zionists, or whatever...peaple with some issues.

Wow, landmine much?
Aside from that one picture, show me where else Herr B has made 'shalow rhetorics'?
He has an opinion, just as you do, and personally I think you're both right. Israel has committed crimes against Palestinians and Palestinians have committed crimes against Israel. Where does that leave us? An eye for an eye making the whole world blind. Whoopee.
Both sides are in the wrong in this, the only difference is that one side has more advanced technology than the other, hence the lopsided death count, if Palestine had UCAVs, Iron Dome and F-16s then I'm sure that Israel would be receiving its own share of bombing. However they do not and so they resort to easy to set up and fire missiles, mortars and suicide bombs. Both sides are firmly entrenched in their opinions and quite honestly peace is a mere dream for the region.
There is no right in this conflict, both sides are wrong.

11-22-12, 01:44 PM

Wow, landmine much?
Aside from that one picture, show me where else Herr B has made 'shalow rhetorics'?
He has an opinion, just as you do, and personally I think you're both right. Israel has committed crimes against Palestinians and Palestinians have committed crimes against Israel. Where does that leave us? An eye for an eye making the whole world blind. Whoopee.
Both sides are in the wrong in this, the only difference is that one side has more advanced technology than the other, hence the lopsided death count, if Palestine had UCAVs, Iron Dome and F-16s then I'm sure that Israel would be receiving its own share of bombing. However they do not and so they resort to easy to set up and fire missiles, mortars and suicide bombs. Both sides are firmly entrenched in their opinions and quite honestly peace is a mere dream for the region.
There is no right in this conflict, both sides are wrong.

I dont have time to go into this right now.
To make it really simple look at the idology behind the guys who shoot the missiles.
Also all reall crap with palestinans started at the time Israel decided to go for practical solution of this conflict of which withdrawal from gaza was one of the steps.
So far palestinians make us doubt and regret every concession ever done.
It is also quite clear that they can not govern themselves in responsible way not from with in and not due to external influences.
They are not much diffrent from all the rest muslim brothers....as long as israel is here israel is going to be an idological enemy....a cancer to ME way of life.
Palestinians are simply populist joker in the game..with all the "democratization" of Me more than ever.
Actully i queston may stance on the whole issue of peace process and its worthiness for any other reasons besides propaganda...oh look we try again with those guys.

Tribesman

11-22-12, 01:51 PM

wow the dumb nazi really went into one there
I bet MH is pissing himself laughing at that nonsense:har:

Armistead

11-22-12, 01:55 PM

Oberon

11-22-12, 02:05 PM

*Skybird level wall of text*

You've done your research, well done, Israel is indeed a British project, taken over by the Americans, and yes, there was a lot of fighting between Israeli and Palestinians from...well...the beginning of the settlement until now.
I can't say I know the history too well, but what you say in regards to colonialism certainly rings true for the time, and indeed our need for access to the Suez and a door wedge against Egypt. Of course, we negated that problem in 1882 when we took control of Egypt, but with the Ottomans sitting around Turkey and a great deal of the region, I can believe that we would want to put a favourable colonial state in the region to act as a base for potential operations against the Ottomans.
Of course, once WWI had finished so had our Empire and so I imagine the plans were put back on the back burner until a later date, and then revisited following the genocide of WWII. I do recall reading somewhere that Nazi Germany had a plan at one point to deport Jews to Madagascar, heck, we debated setting up a Jewish state in Uganda but the plan was rejected by the Zionist Congress (and before people jump on me, it was indeed a real entity and still exists, although it's now the World Zionist Organisation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Zionist_Organization [Organisation, not conspiracy :03:]).
Of course, what you have to remember is that even before the Holocaust, there was a great deal of anti-semitism in the western world, from America to the Soviet Union/Tsarist Russia. Therefore it is perhaps understandable that the British hoped that by creating the state of Israel as a refuge for the Jews from the western world they could end the problem of the 'Jewish question' and focus on gearing up against the Soviet threat. At the same time it would buy good favour with the Jewish populace of America and Britain (in particular America in which the anti-Semitism was lower than in Europe because of the way America was set up) and secure access in the area.

This is where things started to go wrong.
Nationalism rears its ugly head, wars begin and end, and both sides wind up in this bloody stalemate. Our partition plans for Israel in 1948 were a complete mess, I mean...honestly, how can anyone create a country out of this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png/327px-UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

Of course, now with hostile neighbours all around it, and its only allies some thousands of miles away, Israel had to get tough, stay tough and fight tough...and that's how it has been. We find it repugnant because we are not in the same situation ourselves, but quite honestly were the roles reversed and we found ourselves surrounded by hostile nations we would vow to fight to the death, and then if conquered we would continue to fight. This is true of many nations, mine and yours alike.
In the beginning the odds were against Israel, they had superior tactics but lacked the weaponry that the invading Arabs had (which was mostly British...) and only once supplied with crucial heavy equipment (by Czechoslovakia of all people) Israel was able to hold its own and the UN ceasefire and border redrawing came up with a slightly better map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Cia-is-map2.gif/276px-Cia-is-map2.gif

Then came the Six Day war, the coming of which was not exactly kept a secret by the Arab coalition, thus enabling Israel to gain the upper hand by striking first.

At this point, with the signing of the Land For Peace agreement, it all went south, the agreement was vague enough to allow everyone to take something different from it, Israel wanted to be able to house all its settlers as well as have a defensive buffer against the likes of Syria and Egypt in case it didn't get the same warning it did before the Six Day war, and rightly so, because six years later Israel was bounced by Syria and Egypt in the Yom Kippur war. Saudi Arabia, whilst not that active a military participant, decided to use oil as its weapon against Israel and drove a wedge in between Israel and many of its allies that lasts until this day.

Since then Israel has maintained its dominance through pre-emptive strikes and heavy and hard actions against potential threats. It has become, as Moshe Dayan said "like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother" out of a need of self-survival. You cannot stop suicide bombers, or surprise attacks, but you can make the price of them so dear that the enemy will think twice before paying it.

In closing, let me come upon a fact, Jewish people have suffered deep discrimination throughout history, longer than the blacks, longer than the Muslims, longer than most discriminations. Whenever blame has to be appointed, it usually came down to being the fault of the Jews, and to many people today it still is. Israel knows this. Israel knows that it cannot trust anyone, because it will be let down. I can't say that I blame them, as they have been let down by those considered to be their friends again and again throughout history, and I'm pretty sure that before this century is out they will be let down again. Israel can only firmly count on one nation to help it, and that is Israel.

We put Israel where it was, and then Israel had to defend itself against the local populace without our help. Not once, but three times. Sure, the Zionist council would likely have rejected any attempts to put the Jewish settlers anywhere else, but we made the ultimate choice to listen to them and put them right on the doorstep of Palestine. Of course, to be honest, you were going to have that kind of problem no matter where they settled, just as the colonial powers had in the century before as they pushed through the indigenous population to settle themselves there. The Zulu war comes to mind. Israel has made the best of a bad situation, I can't say I blame them, and it has had its back against the wall for nearly a century and will do for centuries more.

That is not to say that there are not many Israelis who see the problems of the Gaza Strip and West Bank as being problems made by themselves, Moshe Dayan, a man who you could easily call a major Zionist, even he recognised the reason why there is so much resentment:

"Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.
We should demand his blood not from the Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood."

So, in closing (again...man, I'm bad at closing) I'd say that you are one part correct and one part wrong Alex. Certainly there is enough blame to go around to fill up both Israel and the entire Middle East, and affixing blame is certainly not going to do anything but serve to widen the divide. It is sad that we live in a world that is so bipolar that anything that could be interpreted as possibly being anti-Jewish immediately results in accusations of neo-Nazism, it is certainly a case of "If you're not with us, you're against us" and that is sad because to be honest I'm not for or against anyone, nor Palestine or Israel, I find the whole region to be a mess with both sides in the wrong. "Let he who is without sin" as the saying goes, well both sides have sinned, sinned in good nature, and for self-justifying reasons, but sinned nonetheless. However, certainly there is still neo-Nazism around, and there are still people with these ugly viewpoints, just as there are Zionists, as Gillard put it, "there are...nutjobs on the internet". There is no Jewish conspiracy, or Muslim conspiracy, just plain old human emotions, anger, fear and greed which fuel this war, on both sides. :yep:

Oberon

11-22-12, 02:11 PM

When one side is led by groups and influences that state the other side should be wiped off the face of the earth, clearly both sides aren't wrong.
I don't think a solution exist because of this radical belief. For Hamas, Iran and other terror groups, each gain in land or political influence is just another step towards Jerusalem.

The other side is lead by people with the Samson option, the possibility of taking the world down with Israel. Let's face it, if Israel had been beaten back so that it only possessed the land size of the Gaza strip and West Bank, it would be sorely tempted to remove Cairo, Damascus, Tehran, Mecca, Medina, Amman, Beirut, and Baghdad from the face of the planet, what else would it have to lose?

11-22-12, 02:53 PM

Did i hear one state solution...now that is a joke.
My guess is it would be also multicultural liberal state like egypt or iran or syria....or maybe france.
Or possibly like some other arab states where the good palestinians are second rate nuisance with their anger channeled toward da zionists.

Skybird

11-22-12, 04:40 PM

Two points on the question of land and territories.

1.

Historically, a split of the land, one part for Arabs and the other for Israel, already has taken place. The mandate of the British for what for a short phase in history only (!) was called "Palestine", included the territory of today's Israel, the Golan heights, the Westbank, and today's Jordan. That territory was split in 1921, along the river Jordan, and the territory east of it became the emirate of Transjordan, which later turned into today's Jordan. This territory was meant for the Palestinian Arabs to be their home. And it was more than twice as large than the rest in the Western part of former "Palestine".

1923 did the Brits split off the Golan heights and added it to Syria, which back then was a mandate under French administration. So, the Golan originally is no Syrian territory at all.

A state of Palestine has never existed, nor was there ever an ethnicity of "Palestinians". The place for the overwhelming part of the past three thousand years was known as Judaea, Philistia, Gallilea, Israel or Kanaan, depending on era and current rulership over the place.

By the end of the day: the Palestinians already have gotten their own state: Jordan. But they refused to take that and find their place inside of it, instead tried to take it over and overthrow the meanwhile established government. The result was the Jordanian crackdown on the PLO. Since then at the latest, the PLO and the Palestinians are nowhere welcomed guests anymore, people in all Arab countries I ever were in had a very low opinion of them and said they cannot be trusted.

This did not stop Palestinians to become world's greatest masters of self-victimisation, and masters of lining up with the wrong allies time and again, and missing their chances for a modern two state solution also at least twice. In the end, the "Palestinians" do not want what is now called a two-state-solution: in fact they want it all for themselves, the two state is just a temporary, preparatory stage for the final pushing of the Jews back into the ocean. Hamas at least is honest enough to not lie about this goal. Fatah and Abbas however deceive the West over this, and the West is stupid enough to believe it.

Israel now uses Hamas to try to keep in check non-Hamas militias in Gaza. Their relations to Abbas however the Israelis have allowed to loosen. Call it Realpolitik, if you want.

2.

It often is said that Israel agreed to a declaration that it should/would give back the territories it seized in the war of 1967. The "Palestinians" until today demand the two state solution being realised in the borders of before the war.

Two things on that. Israel was attacked and defended itself, it won and survived, and seized some territories, amongst them the Sinai, and the Golan that arbitrarily had been split off the Palestine protectorate and added to the Syrian mandate territory by the Brits just 44 years earlier. Huge territories, even large ones, Israel meanwhile has given back. The Sinai. Gaza. Westbank. And after having given up Gaza and Westbank, these territories became attack platforms by terrorists firing rockets and missiles. Israel, as the victim of the attack of 1967, has won some prey of war, well-deserved, nevertheless has given back most of those territories. Imagine what the Poles would say if Germany demands after its attack on Poland in 1939 that now old former German territories should be given back to Germany! If the germans would be stupid enough to do that, there would be an outcry. But after the 1967 aggression, the aggressors demand their former lands been given back, completely - that is acceptable? Especially when considering that most militarily gained territories HAVE been given back by Israel already...?

But my main point is this, i had to look it up again to get it right and to find the correct quote, but here we go: the UN SC resolution 242, which says:

"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict".

Back then, there was a very intense diplomatic battle between The Soviet Union and America over this formulation, because the Soviets wanted one single word being added, making the sentence like this:

"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from the territories occupied in the recent conflict".

A small but decisive difference. Palestinian Arabs until today claim that Israel had agreed to withdraw from all territories they seized in that war. Fact is, the Soviets pressed hard to reach right that obligation for the Israelis, but they failed to get it through the SC, and so there is a resolution that only says that Israel should withdraw from some of the territories it occupied. Which it did. And it has given back most of these territories indeed.

Tribesman

11-22-12, 06:14 PM

Historically, a split of the land, one part for Arabs and the other for Israel, already has taken place.
Typical skybull.
No part of transjordan shall be incorporated into either the arab palestinian state or the jewish homeland.
Plain and simple isn't it

It often is said that Israel agreed to a declaration that it should/would give back the territories it seized in the war of 1967....
More skybull.
Israel is signatory to a declaration that in cannot sieze territory through conflict and also is signatory that it cannot tranfer any of its civilian population to occupied territory.

A small but decisive difference.
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
"Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war"
Pretty clear isn't it, inadmissible is inadmissible, it isn't inadmissible but only for some territory

Imagine what the Poles would say if Germany demands after its attack on Poland in 1939 that now old former German territories should be given back to Germany!
I would imagine they would say "what year did everyone agree that countries couldn't sieze land anymore":know:

Gerald

11-23-12, 07:38 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20461914

A thing like this can easily cause the truce is broken,:hmmm:

Note: Update,record 23 November 2012 Last updated at 12:19 GMT

Takeda Shingen

11-23-12, 09:46 AM

@ Takeda :D : I'm going to let this vocabulary matter aside for now, I'm already tired about that, ya know. But don't hesitate to question my humble knowledge when it comes to your language, if that's got any importance in your opinion.

If you want to be deliberately obtuse about the matter, that is fine. However, we all know that you are using these terms to try to mask your hatred for these people. We've seen this show before, and we remember how it ends. What is the most insulting is not that you believe yourself intellectually superior, but that you do not believe us smart enough to catch on to your wordplay.

Jimbuna

11-23-12, 12:23 PM

I'd be really interested in reading any 'workable/realistic' solutions that people might have in relation to a lasting peace in the region.

Tribesman

11-23-12, 12:27 PM

I'd be really interested in reading any 'workable/realistic' solutions that people might have in relation to a lasting peace in the region.
its the middle east:nope:

Jimbuna

11-23-12, 12:55 PM

its the middle east:nope:

Sounds good to me :)

eddie

11-23-12, 01:56 PM

Every time someone thinks of a way to fix the ME, it just causes more headaches,lol What I can't understand is how they can keep these blood feuds going for centuries! Don't they get tired of it?

August

11-23-12, 02:36 PM

Every time someone thinks of a way to fix the ME, it just causes more headaches,lol What I can't understand is how they can keep these blood feuds going for centuries! Don't they get tired of it?

I think it's the heat. It cooks their brains.

yubba

11-23-12, 02:48 PM

They have been fighting over a goat for the last 5000 years, once they get that straightened out they will have figured out the Jews have left pharoh, and Moses had parted the Red Sea,,lets see allah do that, time to have that bacon milk shake....

Oberon

11-23-12, 03:16 PM

eddie

11-23-12, 03:43 PM

I can just imagine how they keep the feud going too. A family is sitting around eating supper when the conversation turns for the worse.
" I remember the story my Great Grandfather had handed down from our elders. About when Omar killed the family goat back in 1641! It was like it was yesterday! And God willing, we shall get even with them for that!

Has anyone seen my AK?"

Jimbuna

11-23-12, 04:18 PM

Quite simply....they are continually fed from birth whatever poison their parents subscribe to.

eddie

11-23-12, 07:33 PM

And the feuds continue, even in Pakistan.

http://news.msn.com/world/pakistan-cuts-phones-to-stop-bomb-attacks-on-shiites

Armistead

11-23-12, 10:10 PM

Let's face it, there is no fix for the ME, in the end it will be about choosing a side. The only thing that ever solves these problems is all out warfare, like our Civil War. We can keep putting it off, but we know one day it will explode.