View Full Version : Progressive Liberalism is a Mental Dissorder (merged)
Good Sunday morning, to ya what a beautiful morning it is here in Florida hope the rest of you are enjoying your sunday. God must be smile-ing upon me to give me such a beautiful sun rise. I thought it fitting too post my thoughts, about those poor souls at the DNC it was absolutly shameful, hope everybody got a real good eye full of that. I for one believe if you don't have some kind of spirituality, you have no moral compass and if you have no moral compass I don't think you can be trusted. Anyone that tries to drive God out of your life can't be trusted. God thank you for this day with little or no pain, and for all the blessings that you have set forth for me on this glorious day, I say this prayer every morning, God will provide every thing you need if you open your eyes to it. Almost forgot God forgive those who shunned you this week and, open their hearts so they might see the light of your glory. Amen
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
Reality.
Raptor1
09-09-12, 06:49 AM
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
Correct punctuation?
Betonov
09-09-12, 06:51 AM
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
Aesthetically pleasant writting with paragraphs and spacing for easier reading and thematic separation
Reality.
Correct punctuation?
Aesthetically pleasant writting with paragraphs and spacing for easier reading and thematic separation
Ok, that was too easy. :)
kraznyi_oktjabr
09-09-12, 07:05 AM
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:Discussion?
Even though your message (posted with the best intentions in your mind most certainly) doesn't fit that stuff called internet - since 99,9% of what you can find online goes straight against your values and any kind of belief, as you can see - I'd like to say thank you Yubba for being part of the dissident American people who don't forget the simple good things in life.
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
Common sense?
Shearwater
09-09-12, 07:25 AM
I for one believe if you don't have some kind of spirituality, you have no moral compass and if you have no moral compass I don't think you can be trusted. Anyone that tries to drive God out of your life can't be trusted.
http://mlkshk.com/r/42BJ
Jimbuna
09-09-12, 07:35 AM
And so it continues....
:hmmm:
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/yubba_joindate1.jpg
:hmmm::hmmm:
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/yubba_joindate2.jpg
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/terrified-cat-looks-out-car-window-.jpg
Betonov
09-09-12, 07:48 AM
Well, I'm having an ingrown toe nail and Herr-Bear is having a migrane so there's two that would boo god when it comes to painless days
u crank
09-09-12, 07:54 AM
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/yubba_joindate2.jpg
Now your scaring all the little children. :har:
TheDarkWraith
09-09-12, 08:18 AM
Spirituality was invented to give people a sense of belonging, to give them a sense of meaning, a purpose in life if you will. Myself, being the questioning kind with a scientific background needs unequivocal proof of something before I will believe it. Show me the money Jerry! Show me the money...:D
Ducimus
09-09-12, 09:09 AM
Is there anything you don't believe in? :doh:
He doesn't seem to believe in correct grammar or punctuation, basic intelligence, rational thought, and common sense. I think he's also from Florida, so you can further deduct IQ points for that as well.
Hottentot
09-09-12, 09:25 AM
I'm having an ingrown toe nail
Those suck. Can become real nuisances too if left alone. Luckily not something that you can't take care of by yourself if you're willing to play with a knife a little.
Betonov
09-09-12, 09:40 AM
Those suck. Can become real nuisances too if left alone. Luckily not something that you can't take care of by yourself if you're willing to play with a knife a little.
Well :roll:
The situation is the consequence of playing with a knife :arrgh!:
Hottentot
09-09-12, 09:47 AM
What the knife causes, the knife cures as well. Yours or a doctor's. :03:
I learned what the expression of "it hurts only once" really means one day when I got fed up with having one of those. But haven't had any since that day.
Good Sunday morning, to ya what a beautiful morning it is here in Florida hope the rest of you are enjoying your sunday. God must be smile-ing upon me to give me such a beautiful sun rise. I thought it fitting too post my thoughts, about those poor souls at the DNC it was absolutly shameful, hope everybody got a real good eye full of that. I for one believe if you don't have some kind of spirituality, you have no moral compass and if you have no moral compass I don't think you can be trusted. Anyone that tries to drive God out of your life can't be trusted. God thank you for this day with little or no pain, and for all the blessings that you have set forth for me on this glorious day, I say this prayer every morning, God will provide every thing you need if you open your eyes to it. Almost forgot God forgive those who shunned you this week and, open their hearts so they might see the light of your glory. Amen
Your brain works in mysterious way...or you just taking piss?
God probably doesn't mind either way lol.
Your brain works in mysterious way...or you just taking piss?
God probably doesn't mind either way lol.
His what?
Armistead
09-09-12, 10:25 AM
My morals aren't based on religion, I can choose to do right because it's the right thing to do, not because I seek reward in heaven or fear eternal torture in hell. I'm not sure I could trust the morals of a creator that plans on torturing me forever for simply being born a failed human. Morals based on fear lead only to bias.
Strabo, the Greek geographer and philosopher, says: "it is impossible to govern women and the gross body of the people, and to keep them pious, holy and virtuous, by the precepts of philosophy. This can only be done by the fear of the gods, which is raised and supported by ancient fictions and modern prodigies." And again he says: "The apparatus of the ancient mythologies was an engine which the legislators employed as bugbears to strike a terror into the childish imagination of the multitude."
nikimcbee
09-09-12, 10:40 AM
allah will punish you all.:Kaleun_Goofy:
I'm just wondering what ferret hell would be like?
:hmm2:
http://www.theberkeleydiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/No-Alcohol.jpg
http://newsanvil.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/amish.jpg?w=199&h=300
Oh boy, I love ferrets.
http://csumc.wisc.edu/AmericanLanguages/graphics/Amish_girls_half.jpg
Dowly's new "mates."
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-0n9NDAJ4PNU/Th97ndDrRYI/AAAAAAAAAYk/YOM-FrBWOFU/Evil%252520Ferret%25255B6%25255D.jpg
Naughty ferrets go to Amish paradise.
http://examiner-enterprise.com/sites/files/article/347981_web_8-27Amish-Attacks_Mill.jpg
We shall embrace our new friend Dowly.
http://blog.bigfatwhale.com/images//2009/01/ferret_yawn.jpg
Yes.
http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/ferret-attack.jpg
Takeda Shingen
09-09-12, 11:02 AM
The OP's comments are all the more ironic when one takes into consideration that his supported candidate belongs to a sect that mainstream Christianity labels 'un-Christian'.
Gargamel
09-09-12, 11:29 AM
http://www.hilarious-pictures.com/sites/www.hilarious-pictures.com/files/images/00284418.preview.jpg
Armistead
09-09-12, 11:34 AM
The OP's comments are all the more ironic when one takes into consideration that his supported candidate belongs to a sect that mainstream Christianity labels 'un-Christian'.
Oh, come on, we need a President that believes a boy was visited by an angel named Moroni that gave him the location of a buried book of golden plates and a set of silver spectacles and then got in a wrestling match with the angel. With a man like that in our highest office, we should all feel safe..
Gargamel
09-09-12, 01:56 PM
Well, my wife was excommunicated by those retards with the magic underwear, so I applaud all derision aimed their way.
kraznyi_oktjabr
09-09-12, 02:02 PM
Well, my wife was excommunicated by those retards with the magic underwear, so I applaud all derision aimed their way.:oops: Pardon my endless curiosity but for what reason they did it?
Tribesman
09-09-12, 02:59 PM
I think I have worked it out.
Given the time warp in yubbavile I think he may be refering to the events that ended on thursday last.
In case you missed it thursday was an event that started with a prayer session(not mass islamic invasion horde variety), it then finished with this bishop fella who does some rememberance thingies about 9/11 victims in his diocese.
Obviously as 9/11 was done by the government and the churches are run by the iluminati it means the DNC was run by the reptillians who clearly can't be christian as the bible don't mention lizard men so it must be against god.
Have you been drinking toilet duck again yubba?
Gargamel
09-09-12, 03:51 PM
:oops: Pardon my endless curiosity but for what reason they did it?
Because we were living together, unmarried.
During the 'trial', one of the elders called her a whore, to her face, for living with me.
We were both in school, but I was working too. So they accused her of trading sex for rent.
soopaman2
09-09-12, 03:53 PM
Spirituality was invented to give people a sense of belonging, to give them a sense of meaning, a purpose in life if you will. Myself, being the questioning kind with a scientific background needs unequivocal proof of something before I will believe it. Show me the money Jerry! Show me the money...:D
I disagree. Spirituality was invented as a form of control.
For the same reasons you mentioned, humans want to believe we are superior to animals, even if we share common instincts. We want to believe we are gods chosen species.
My belief is best said by agent Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Na9-jV_OJI
In other words, we were not created as a mirror image of gods perfection, but another organism in his grand plan. Our greatest weapon, and curse is our intelligence.
But people cannot accept, that we are as we are, Just another brutal animal, fighting for survival, they need an explanation. When others disagree, they want to fight over it, how silly.
Right Crusaders, and Jihadists?
An invisible spook in the sky, would make people forsake thier own species because they refuse to believe as they do.
Then again male Alpacas like to try to kick each other in the nuts, same as we like to exterminate those who are not part of our clan, or religion, or gang...
Have fun with your indoctrination.
My god is no where near as cruel as yours.
Not all aimed at you Dark Wraith, I springboarded off your comment, then adressed the OP. Just wanted to clarify. :)
Because we were living together, unmarried.
During the 'trial', one of the elders called her a whore, to her face, for living with me.
We were both in school, but I was working too. So they accused her of trading sex for rent.
Perfect time to see if he would have been able to turn the other cheek!
Armistead
09-09-12, 06:07 PM
Perfect time to see if he would have been able to turn the other cheek!
Seems they were more concerned with her cheeks..:oops:
First off, spirituality and religion are not one in the same. Spirituality is a belief that there is something that exists that is greater than one's self. Religion on the other hand, uses precepts, rituals and education to indoctornate its followers in a belief system. Spirituality is unique in that it differs in each person. Take a camping trip in early fall and get up for the sunrise and you will completely understand what I am saying.
mookiemookie
09-10-12, 06:42 AM
and then got in a wrestling match with the angel.
I've been in a few wrestling matches with angels in my time. Let's see, there was Kim, there was Melissa, there was Corin, there was Alyssa....
:arrgh!:
I've been in a few wrestling matches with angels in my time. Let's see, there was Kim, there was Melissa, there was Corin, there was Alyssa....
:arrgh!:
We have a picture from that night. You shouldn't hit a girl you know...
http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/john-candy-im-sorry.jpg
Jimbuna
09-10-12, 08:50 AM
We have a picture from that night. You shouldn't hit a girl you know...
http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/john-candy-im-sorry.jpg
You've gotta admit he is wearing a rather fetching white bikini top though :O:
Skybird
09-10-12, 09:42 AM
Spirituality: to ask for where one comes from, where one goes, and why life and cosmos do exist. Spirituality is a state of an asking mind. - The spiritual mind knows that it does not know.
Religion: an opportunistically hijacked condensate resulting from assuming one knows answers to the above questions, while in fact one knows not. Lacking knowledge gets replaced by acting as if one would have that lacking knowledge nevertheless. The cognitive dissonance resulting from this contradictory situation, as well as the need to defend this behavior against criticism by people not acting by this scheme, both in order to maintain one's own attitude nevertheless, results in an ideology that gets defended the more bitterly the more the contradictions become obvious and get pointed out. The climax is reached when the state of not knowing becomes declared a virtue and thus any need for asking questions becomes denied. Here the journey towards dogmatically founded tyranny is completed. - The religious mind believes it knows, but since believed knowledge is no knowledge, but belief only, the religious mind is stuck with believing exclusively. This is not any different from any person in a mental asylum believing he/she is Napoleon, is a cosmic superman with supernatural abilities, or is monitored and controlled by mysterious powers living in the inner core of the Earth. Religion is a hallucinating state of mind resulting from lacking education and lacking knowledge.
Of course, it gets used for political crowd-control as well.
In Zen they say: "Small doubts - small enlightenment. Big doubts - big enlightenment. No doubts - no enlightenment. " - Very true!
Alexander Pope said: "Blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed."
F. A. Lothar Kempter, a Swiss-German componist, director and poet: "Schließe die Augen, dann wirst du schauen. / Brich deine Mauern, dann wirst du bauen. / Lerne harren, dann wirst du gehn, / lasse dich fallen, dann wirst du stehn."
The more you believe you know, the less you know for sure. The more spiritual you are, the less religious you can be. The more religous you are, the less spiritual you can be.
Lao Tse: "Those who talk much, don't know. Those who know much, don't talk."
A bamboo flute without holes is no flute, but a hole without flutes is something totally different. :D
Now you guys have done it. You've got Skybird going on yet another anti-religion rant.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 11:19 AM
Lao Tse: "Those who talk much, don't know. Those who know much, don't talk."
Proverbs:
"Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent."
:hmmm:
The Bible is just full of senseless trivialities.:shifty:
Betonov
09-10-12, 11:54 AM
What, religion again ??
Lets rather talk about ingrown toenails. If you want I can show you a picture of mine :D
About religion ??
I'm somewhere between August and Skybird.
I can't stand religion in it's current state. When I say I'm an atheist I simply say: not convinced. I won't go yelling in peoples faces: there is no god !!!. Just that there is no god of the Bible or Quran.
I'll find the truth soon enough. Until then I'll enjoy the earthly pleasures but without ruining some other blokes life. A saint and a sinner
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 11:57 AM
I can't stand religion in it's current state.
What is the current state? For me, religion is a business and institutionalized.
Betonov
09-10-12, 12:09 PM
What is the current state? For me, religion is a business and institutionalized. + abused for political gains of a few priviliged people
That's my opinion.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 12:13 PM
+ abused for political gains of a few priviliged people
That's my opinion.
I agree, it has become a tool to dissuade or persuade a few/many. I don't know.
I have other thoughts and opinions on the institution of religion. That's for a different thread.
What, religion again ??
Lets rather talk about ingrown toenails. If you want I can show you a picture of mine :D
About religion ??
I'm somewhere between August and Skybird.
I can't stand religion in it's current state. When I say I'm an atheist I simply say: not convinced. I won't go yelling in peoples faces: there is no god !!!. Just that there is no god of the Bible or Quran.
I'll find the truth soon enough. Until then I'll enjoy the earthly pleasures but without ruining some other blokes life. A saint and a sinner
You want some more religion?
Then you should read this alternative to the bible
http://www.urantia.org/
here are the whole book
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/read-urantia-book-online
Markus
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 12:31 PM
+ abused for political gains of a few priviliged people
That's my opinion.
I had to add one more thing on your quote here:
This is the very essence of this thread started by Yubba who is deemed a crack. The convention added God after much debate. For what purpose did the DNC add God into the Convention?
Spoon 11th
09-10-12, 12:40 PM
We need religion because apparently there's a ton of christians whom, without the threat of hell, think it would be a OK to go totally fécking evil.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 12:47 PM
We need religion because apparently there's a ton of christians whom, without the threat of hell, think it would be a OK to go totally fécking evil.
What do the Muslims think? Do we just want to single out the Christians on this?
nikimcbee
09-10-12, 01:00 PM
What do the Muslims think? Do we just want to single out the Christians on this?
Which religion was it that crashes jets into buildings again?
Spoon 11th
09-10-12, 01:01 PM
What do the Muslims think? Do we just want to single out the Christians on this?
I think the context was god of the bible, so I'm not going to discuss about muslims this time. The thing I wrote was a quote from the comments of this video:
Matt Dillahunty explains the immoral moral compass of the christian religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VrFFjp0LY&list=PL0A6A7C752500533D#t=293s
Tchocky
09-10-12, 01:01 PM
For what purpose did the DNC add God into the Convention?
I guess because they didn't want it to become the story of the convention and overshadow any messaging. As usual they messed it up.
I'm no fan of the hyper-intensive religious nature of US politics, but I don't think you make headway with the average voter by making a point of removing mentions of deities.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 01:04 PM
I guess because they didn't want it to become the story of the convention and overshadow any messaging. As usual they messed it up.
I'm no fan of the hyper-intensive religious nature of US politics, but I don't think you make headway with the average voter by making a point of removing mentions of deities.
Agreed.
Sailor Steve
09-10-12, 01:07 PM
I'm just wondering what ferret hell would be
Probably not all that different from doggie hell. Locked in a 2 x 2 cage for all eternity. Masters who never pet you? Never scratch your ears? No toys to play with...ever?
nikimcbee
09-10-12, 01:10 PM
Probably not all that different from doggie hell. Locked in a 2 x 2 cage for all eternity. Masters who never pet you? Never scratch your ears? No toys to play with...ever?
Family guy already addressed the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsj2ghzUR0A
Sailor Steve
09-10-12, 01:15 PM
I had to add one more thing on your quote here:
This is the very essence of this thread started by Yubba who is deemed a crack. The convention added God after much debate. For what purpose did the DNC add God into the Convention?
I agree, but then a lot of things Yubba says come close to the truth. His problem isn't that he gets it right once in awhile; his problem is that he seems to think his own side is right more than that. His real problem is that he takes a side at all. That and of course the obvious answers to Dowly's original question.
Family guy already addressed the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsj2ghzUR0A
Unfortunately I can't watch YouTube from the library. I'll look at it later.
nikimcbee
09-10-12, 01:20 PM
It's Satan chasing dogs with a vacuum.
http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Doggy_0601c1_2519411.gif
Sailor Steve
09-10-12, 01:21 PM
Ooh, that is evil!
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 01:26 PM
His real problem is that he takes a side at all.
It is human's competitive nature that wills individuals to take a side. We find it in all facets life.
Sailor Steve
09-10-12, 01:31 PM
It is human's competitive nature that wills individuals to take a side. We find it in all facets life.
I know. Even my attempts to not take a side constitute taking a side of sorts. The difference I see is that some of us realize it and at least try to use reason to understand why and do something about it. Some do not; they just proclaim their side to be the best, or at least declare the other side to be worth their derision.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 01:35 PM
I know. Even my attempts to not take a side constitute taking a side of sorts. The difference I see is that some of us realize it and at least try to use reason to understand why and do something about it. Some do not; they just proclaim their side to be the best, or at least declare the other side to be worth their derision.
And that, my friend, is the very definition of the NFL football season! :haha: People are decisive to a fault sometimes. I'm no exception. :oops:
And that, my friend, is the very definition of the NFL football season! :haha: People are decisive to a fault sometimes. I'm no exception. :oops: Nice car, got the year before that one sitting just outside the window waiting to be restored of course it belongs to a freind, I'm a 63 chevy impala kind of guy who says there is no god ??
AVGWarhawk
09-10-12, 07:38 PM
Thanks Yubba. She is my personal transport to another time and place.
63 Impala. Iconic Chevy of the era.
First off, spirituality and religion are not one in the same. Spirituality is a belief that there is something that exists that is greater than one's self. Religion on the other hand, uses precepts, rituals and education to indoctornate its followers in a belief system. Spirituality is unique in that it differs in each person. Take a camping trip in early fall and get up for the sunrise and you will completely understand what I am saying.
My thoughts exactly.
Spirituality makes you free, religion restricts it into pre defined boundaries, basically abusing spirituality for its own personal gain, power, money etc..
Blood_splat
09-11-12, 10:34 AM
I like bacon.
My thoughts exactly.
Spirituality makes you free, religion restricts it into pre defined boundaries, basically abusing spirituality for its own personal gain, power, money etc..
What you call restricting to predefined boundaries others might call a path to enlightenment. Who is right?
Betonov
09-11-12, 12:09 PM
What you call restricting to predefined boundaries others might call a path to enlightenment. Who is right?
Anyone who calls that by himself and not by being told by ''holymen''.
And those that do not force those boundries on others.
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 12:14 PM
Anyone who calls that by himself and not by being told by ''holymen''.
And those that do not force those boundries on others.
Okay, so to be straight, you reject all religious doctrine on the grounds that it is religious doctrine? So a man that worships a rock as part of a spur-of-the-moment spiritual enlightenment is a genuine and harmless spiritualist, but as soon as he writes it down as a set of practices to share with others he is an oppressor of his fellow man. That doesn't make sense to me.
Ducimus
09-11-12, 12:18 PM
Who is right?
.. and By who's standards do you make that determination? What makes those standards any different from others?
Sorry, just partially completing an old thought i've had for many years. :haha:
Anyone who calls that by himself and not by being told by ''holymen''.
And those that do not force those boundries on others.
People tell other people all kinds of things all the time. You don't have to listen, you don't have to heed and you darn sure don't have to abide by a "holymans" orders and still remain a every bit as Christian in the eyes of God as any Sky Pilot, more even.
Betonov
09-11-12, 12:23 PM
but as soon as he writes it down as a set of practices to share with others he is an oppressor of his fellow man. That doesn't make sense to me.
As long as he don't FORCES it upon others. If he writes it and spreads it around by sticking fliers on window wippers it's allright. Whoever finds it decides for himself if he agrees with it.
Then there's that question thats more down the road. If whoever wrote those boundries rewrites it and some of the followers don't agree with it, they're not forced to follow the new rules and can leave on their own accord without fear of reprisals.
As long as he don't FORCES it upon others. If he writes it and spreads it around by sticking fliers on window wippers it's allright. Whoever finds it decides for himself if he agrees with it.
Then there's that question thats more down the road. If whoever wrote those boundries rewrites it and some of the followers don't agree with it, they're not forced to follow the new rules and can leave on their own accord without fear of reprisals.
"Reprisals" is kind of vague (excommunication is a form of reprisal for example) but aside from that you're pretty much describing the Protestant religion which has over 30,000 sects last I checked.
Betonov
09-11-12, 12:30 PM
People tell other people all kinds of things all the time. You don't have to listen, you don't have to heed and you darn sure don't have to abide by a "holymans" orders and still remain a every bit as Christian in the eyes of God as any Sky Pilot, more even.
As I already declared myself, I'm an atheist and I shun the roman chatolic church, of which I was once a part of.
But I don't steal because I know how hard it is to achieve/afford something and then have it taken away by a punk.
I don't kill because one has only one chance on this world and no-one should take that away.
I have respect for my parents because, even if I was an ''accident'' they went over the top to get me to this point alive, healthy and educated. My mom had to drop out from medical school so she could earn enough to take good care of me. And I intend to be rich since I will give them back a Euro for every cent they spent.
It's emphaty that gives me my moral compass. A trait that I usually don't notice with the local ''village saints''. And a trait that I didn't get in sunday school
HunterICX
09-11-12, 12:31 PM
I like bacon.
Can I have a fried egg with that??
HunterICX
Skybird
09-11-12, 12:33 PM
http://www.usashaolintemple.org/userfiles/huineng_small.jpg
So much ^ for religious dogma, holy scripture, etc etc.
If you do not know what the paitning is about, google for "Hui Neng".
Our thinking is limited to the ways our brain allow us to think. We do not perceive a "real" reality, because we are not equipped with the means to accompish that and are too much interwoven with the object of our perceptions - all reality is just our brain's interpretation inside our heads. But we take the sensory input from our eyes and ears and put it into categories - categories that WE have formed up and invented. And then we cannot escape these categories anymore. This is what all religions and all philosphy - all thinking - cannot escape. It leads all religions and all philosophy into vicious circles where they sooner or later turn against themselves - necessarily.
And that is what that painting is about. It shows Hui Neng after he gained enlightenment. The first thing he did was running into the monastery's library and destroying all written scripture he could find there. Because its all just bits of paper, leading you wrong, always, no matter what it says.
That's what the painting is about.
We all must get found by the one koan in our life that hits us almost like a jumpkick right into the face. And when it has found us, then we must deal with it. Somehow. It's the one question in our lives that is more important and overwhelming than any other there is. And for everybody, it might be a different one. The risk is total, utmost dispair - the chance is utmost freedom. Not shortcuts, no refunds.
Any answer is wasted, if you have not asked the right question before.
Film of the moment: BLOW UP, by Michelangelo Antonioni. Special attention to be payed to that tennis match. ;)
Ducimus
09-11-12, 12:34 PM
I like bacon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSReSGe200A
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 12:45 PM
As long as he don't FORCES it upon others.
That's fine, but I don't think that I've ever seen anyone place people in pews by force, nor try to get people fired for not attending Mass.
It shows Hui Neng after he gained enlighhtenment. The first thing he did was running in to the monastery's library and destroying all written scrpoture he could find there. Because its all just bits of paper, leading you wrong, always, no matter what it says.
So a lone nut had a mental breakdown and took it upon himself to destroy a library in order to prevent anyone else from deciding it's value themselves. Sounds to me like this guy would have been right at home with the Inquisition or the folks who burned the library at Alexandria.
Atheists are every bit as dogmatic and intolerant as any Holy Joe.
AVGWarhawk
09-11-12, 12:52 PM
And that is what that painting is about. It shows Hui Neng after he gained enlightenment. The first thing he did was running into the monastery's library and destroying all written scripture he could find there. Because its all just bits of paper, leading you wrong, always, no matter what it says.
Book burning is not really something new.....
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 12:57 PM
Book burning is not really something new.....
And the terrible irony is that some of the western tradition's greatest preservers of knowledge and literature were these guys:
http://sunilification.net/dejavu/files/2009/07/praised-be-jesus-christ3.jpg
Betonov
09-11-12, 12:58 PM
Atheists are every bit as dogmatic and intolerant as any Holy Joe.
Yep, there are nutjobs that make us look bad.
Yep, there are nutjobs that make us look bad.
Yep, on both sides of the theological divide. Problem is the nutjobs are the ones who get in the news and leave the rest of us thinking they're representative of the mainstream instead of exceptions to it.
AVGWarhawk
09-11-12, 01:02 PM
And the terrible irony is that some of the western tradition's greatest preservers of knowledge and literature were these guys:
http://sunilification.net/dejavu/files/2009/07/praised-be-jesus-christ3.jpg
That is ironic!!!
AVGWarhawk
09-11-12, 01:04 PM
Yep, on both sides of the theological divide. Problem is the nutjobs are the ones who get in the news and leave the rest of us thinking they're representative of the mainstream instead of exceptions to it.
Never a truer statement. Overgeneralized and broad sweeping statements encompass all as a result of the very few that are vocal. It reminds me of people saying, "You all..."
Ducimus
09-11-12, 02:43 PM
You know....
A small lecture about generalizing, coming from some folks who make gross generalizations on political topics, strikes me as a bit... odd.
AVGWarhawk
09-11-12, 03:29 PM
You know....
A small lecture about generalizing, coming from some folks who make gross generalizations on political topics, strikes me as a bit... odd.
Are we speaking in general terms?
Betonov
09-11-12, 03:31 PM
Keep me out of this, I'm not even a private
And the terrible irony is that some of the western tradition's greatest preservers of knowledge and literature were these guys:
http://sunilification.net/dejavu/files/2009/07/praised-be-jesus-christ3.jpg
It might also be worth adding these guys:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Taqi_al_din.jpg
In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.
u crank
09-11-12, 03:39 PM
Keep me out of this, I'm not even a private
:har:
Careful, you might get drafted.:D
It might also be worth adding these guys:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Taqi_al_din.jpg
In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.
:yep:
(not that this makes a lot of difference in present)
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 03:58 PM
Yeah, actually it does make a lot of difference. Humanity and it's progress are like a human ladder; you stand on the shoulders of those that came before you. Once does not discount the value of gunpowder just because the modern Chinese 'disappeared' their own president elect. Seriously, what is up with that?
Skybird
09-11-12, 04:00 PM
So a lone nut had a mental breakdown and took it upon himself to destroy a library in order to prevent anyone else from deciding it's value themselves. Sounds to me like this guy would have been right at home with the Inquisition or the folks who burned the library at Alexandria.
And that sounds like a man who has not the smallest clue what he is talking about. ;)
You could as well say that Martin Luther King was a fascist trying to censor free speech ,and polishing his narcissistic ego only when attending huge crowds.
When one stays far away enough from the matter, it indeed seems like that, doesn't it. However, closer examination shows that he was about something totally different.
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 04:04 PM
You could as well say that Martin Luther King was a fascist trying to censor free speech ,and polishing his narcissistic ego only when attending huge.
Number of libraries burnt down by MLK? Zero.
Penguin
09-11-12, 04:11 PM
And the terrible irony is that some of the western tradition's greatest preservers of knowledge and literature were these guys:
In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.
They might have done a good job in preserving ancient knowledge, but they did a terrible job in spreading the knowledge outside their own club.
Knowledge that is conserved but not shared is stale, dead knowledge.
Last but not least they actively prosecuted old knowledge (e.g. herbal healers outside of monasteries as witches) as well as new knowledge (e.g. Galilei as one of the most prominent examples)
Universities however are a two sided sword, many were found/influenced by the state and church - no big separation here. However imo they really started rolling when they got more autonomy and the church put less pressure and control on them.
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 04:16 PM
They might have done a good job in preserving ancient knowledge, but they did a terrible job in spreading the knowledge outside their own club.
Knowledge that is conserved but not shared is stale, dead knowledge.
In fairness, western Europe was rife with local warlords, almost universally illiterate and not at all concerned with artistic and philisophical matters. Charlemagne was regarded as one of the greatest leaders in medieval Europe in large part due to the fact that he could actually read. Such knowledge would have been wasted on them. That information waited for Europe to stabilize and mature, although by that point the Church itself had become a major player in political affairs and such knowledge was then deemed outside the sphere of acceptable church life. Those that protected this knowlede from outsiders then sought to protect themselves from the knowledge itself.
Ducimus
09-11-12, 04:16 PM
It might also be worth adding these guys:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Taqi_al_din.jpg
In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.
:yep:
(not that this makes a lot of difference in present)
Yeah, actually it does make a lot of difference. Humanity and it's progress are like a human ladder; you stand on the shoulders of those that came before you.
10 min section of a 45 min speech. Well worth watching, and VERY relevant. I'm sure at the least, Tak's will enjoy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w
Skybird
09-11-12, 04:18 PM
From the Sutra of the Sixth Chan Patriarch, whom Hui Neng was:
"Those who know the meaning, have gone beyond senseless words; thjose who have an insight into reason have transcended the letter. The teaching itself is more than words and letters, why should we seek it in these? He who attains the meaning, forgets the words; he has an insight into reason and leaves tghe teaching behind. It is like a man forgetting the creel when he has the fish, or forgetting the noose when he has the hare."
That was form the 8th century. And now Yuan-Wu from the 13th century:
"The truth of Zen is possessed by everybody. Look into your own being and seek it not through others. Your mown mind is above all forms, it is free and quiet and sufficient; it eternally stamps itself in you six senses and the four elements. Hush the dualism of subject and object, forget both, transcend the intellect, sever yourself from the understanding, and directly penetrate deep into the identity of the Buddha-mind; outside of this there are no realities. Therefore, when Bodhidharma came from the West, he simply declared: 'Directly pointing to one'S own soul, my doctrine is unique and not hampered by the cononical teachings (...)' "
Do you now get an idea on why Hui Neng pathetically stormed the library and destroyed it? It is the same reason why you take a piece of paper and throw it away when yiu filled it with wrong m ath calculations, or when you painted a rose and see that no matter how you paint it, it never catches the beauty of the original. It is the same reason why school teachers correct the mistakes of their students, and why I say that categorical thinking is inept to catch the real nature of reality.
Vandalism had little to do with it.
u crank
09-11-12, 04:20 PM
We all must get found by the one koan in our life that hits us almost like a jumpkick right into the face. And when it has found us, then we must deal with it. Somehow. It's the one question in our lives that is more important and overwhelming than any other there is. And for everybody, it might be a different one. The risk is total, utmost dispair - the chance is utmost freedom. Not shortcuts, no refunds.
What if this leads one to....God?
Skybird
09-11-12, 04:22 PM
Number of libraries burnt down by MLK? Zero.
Tak , see my posting right above.
Didn'T you once said you were into Aikido and Zen, or do I mistake your with somebody else? Direct tradition, sudden and full insight, the mistrust in written tradition - all that should not be anything new to you, then, nor shouzld the names of Hui Neng, LinChi (Rinzai) and Huang Po.
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 04:32 PM
Tak , see my posting right above.
Didn'T you once said you were into Aikido and Zen, or do I mistake your with somebody else? Direct tradition, sudden and full insight, the mistrust in written tradition - all that should not be anything new to you, then, nor shouzld the names of Hui Neng, LinChi (Rinzai) and Huang Po.
Yes, yes, I've read D. T. Suzuki too.
Skybird
09-11-12, 04:46 PM
What if this leads one to....God?
Another dead end in human intellectual, dualistically structured, categorical thinking.
Go beyond the term "God". Transcend the letters and words, leave all these conceptions and intellectual categories behind, and all what you consider to be your ego. Burn the bible, storm the library, tear down the church. It means nothing, only inflames your mind with colourful fever, and it burns so hot and shines so bright that it bl,inds your eyes and you cannot see the real things anymore. You must not reach something, you have to give up something. All that is your real essence and nature, is already yours, and always has been, and always will be, but you plaster it with illusions, and hide it from yourself. We must not learn to do something, we must learn to let things. "God", "reality", "ideas" - the veil of Maya, disguising from our eyes the reality behind. Nobody must go anywhewre, we are already there, and never have been somewehre else. We are running in place, becoming tired, sweating, becoming exhausted - but we do not move away one step fro m where we are. Still we think it is a race, a competition for being first, being doiminant, and all the violence and supression, all that immorality and fanatism, all that hate and intolerance religions are more responsibloe for thany any other casue in human history of the poast 5000 years, is coming from this - our halucination that we are in a race, that we must progress, must be victorious, must advance and be the first.
We are like hamsters in a running wheel.
Seeing this can only be had at the price of giving up the conceptions of our"selves", and give up our idea about our egos. In other words, like I sometimes summarise it, self-realisation can only be had at the price of self-transcendence, if you want to become your real self, you have to give up your self.
Let go "God". Stop running, and let the wheel come to a rest. Then step out. And see how it feels to come to rest.
Penguin
09-11-12, 04:51 PM
In fairness, western Europe was rife with local warlords, almost universally illiterate and not at all concerned with artistic and philisophical matters. Charlemagne was regarded as one of the greatest leaders in medieval Europe in large part due to the fact that he could actually read. Such knowledge would have been wasted on them.
OK, now we get into a more philosophical direction. To me, knowledge is never wasted. Even the stupidest, nuttiest, brain damaged person has some things he is interested in and says: "great to know!".
If we are talking about medieval times, I am not neccessary talking about the stuff like art and philosophy. Given the work-intensive life of a peasant, many would have indeed seen knowledge about this as a waste - just as their rulers did.
I am blaming the church for not encouraging literacy. How many cool stories have been lost during the centuries, because nobody was able to write them down? And those who were able to, were busy copying the bible. It was not before the beginning of the 19th century here in Germany till the brothers Grimm wrote some of those old stories down.
Or applied mathematics: how to build a shed that doesn't fall down, how to pump water efficiently to drain the fields. All wisdom the old Greeks had and which just sat behind some walls.
the Church itself had become a major player in political affairs and such knowledge was then deemed outside the sphere of acceptable church life. Those that protected this knowlede from outsiders then sought to protect themselves from the knowledge itself.
spot on!
And this is for example why Martin Luther was deemed to be a dangerous man for translating the bible into the language of the commons. The people could listen to the words for themselves, make their own interpretation and were no longer dependent on the people who could read Latin.
(Is "prerogative of interpretation" the right term for it? Still longing for knowledge. :03:)
Skybird
09-11-12, 04:57 PM
Yes, yes, I've read D. T. Suzuki too.
Reading Suzuki does nothing, but at least should prevent false "knowing" of theoretical info. But spiritually, every book is one book too much. I have given all my former books away (including those by Suzuki), all except one that is special. I could as well have "stormed the library" and burned them. But I lacked the audience to give sense to such theatralic acting.
u crank
09-11-12, 05:01 PM
Spirituality: to ask for where one comes from, where one goes, and why life and cosmos do exist. Spirituality is a state of an asking mind. - The spiritual mind knows that it does not know.
Seeing this can only be had at the price of giving up the conceptions of our"selves", and give up our idea about our egos. In other words, like I sometimes summarise it, self-realisation can only be had at the price of self-transcendence, if you want to become your real self, you have to give up your self.
If my 'spiritual mind' knows that it does not know, how then do I know who the real self is?
chopper92
09-11-12, 05:31 PM
Not much talk about submarines here. Still interesting stuff tho' and pleasing to see so much scepticism in you Americans - I'm just an ignorant Englishman who's just worked out that DNC = Democrats National Convention.
Was it Abe Lincoln who said "Judge not lest ye shall be judged"?
Takeda Shingen
09-11-12, 05:34 PM
Not much talk about submarines here.
And you won't see it on GT. General Topics is the grab bag for everything not game or submarine-related. It also has a monopoly on bad manners and poor behavior on the site, so tread at your own peril and be mindful of the trolls.
u crank
09-11-12, 05:42 PM
Not much talk about submarines here. Still interesting stuff tho' and pleasing to see so much scepticism in you Americans - I'm just an ignorant Englishman who's just worked out that DNC = Democrats National Convention.
Was it Abe Lincoln who said "Judge not lest ye shall be judged"?
Welcome to SUBSIM chopper92. :salute:
Abe may have said it but he was quoting Matthew 7:1.
Not much talk about submarines here. Still interesting stuff tho' and pleasing to see so much scepticism in you Americans - I'm just an ignorant Englishman who's just worked out that DNC = Democrats National Convention.
Was it Abe Lincoln who said "Judge not lest ye shall be judged"?
Come over here into the ignorant Englishmans corner, we have biscuits, not cookies, and scones, not biscuits...and most importantly of all, we have tea! :salute:
Ducimus
09-11-12, 06:03 PM
And you won't see it on GT. General Topics is the grab bag for everything not game or submarine-related. It also has a monopoly on bad manners and poor behavior on the site, so tread at your own peril and be mindful of the trolls.
Quoted for emphasis.
Basically, this forum is the community punching bag to vent our frustrations or talk about nothing in particular. It could very well be the reason why elsewhere, everyone is well behaved. When i visit the silent hunter subforums, ill have my submarine simluation hat on. In general topics, I wear no hat, but instead have a bag of peanuts, and popcorn ready for the hilarity that may or may not ensue. Since its election year, its been mostly political lately.
u crank
09-11-12, 06:06 PM
In general topics, I wear no hat, but instead have a bag of peanuts, and popcorn ready for the hilarity that may or may not ensue. Since its election year, its been mostly political lately.
Pass the popcorn please. :D
Ducimus
09-11-12, 06:10 PM
Pass the popcorn please. :D
http://imageplay.net/img/tya22277685/eating_popcorn_animated.gif
u crank
09-11-12, 06:12 PM
That's the only way to eat it. :har:
And that sounds like a man who has not the smallest clue what he is talking about. ;)
You could as well say that Martin Luther King was a fascist trying to censor free speech ,and polishing his narcissistic ego only when attending huge crowds.
Like Takeda said. MLK never burned a library.
The difference here is ownership Skybird. If it's your scribbles on a piece of paper then feel free to crumple, fold, spindle, mutilate, even use it as toilet paper, to your hearts content. But you and Hui Neng, however enlightened you claim to be, have absolutely no right to do that to other peoples scribbles.
Skybird
09-11-12, 06:44 PM
If my 'spiritual mind' knows that it does not know, how then do I know who the real self is?
You are asking in what way to stirr a glass of water in order to clear it best. Must I tell you how to breathe? Must you want to tell the sun to rise in the morning and to settle in the evening? Can any written manual on how to breath help you to breath better? Will the sun shine brightier because you write down your theory on how to make it so? Ever tried to explain somebody how to keep the balance when putting one feet before the other, and how to not fall off a bicycle?
You do not need a second head on your shoulders. There already is one. Its the one you were born with. The idea that for 60, 70 years manifestates itself in your temporary form, has been there before you came, and it will be there after you have gone. Like soap bubbles embrace all the same space when they are there, and the space remains the same when the bubble bursts, and another one appears. The space inside and outside is always the same. The ocean is the same water, no matter what patterns waves form on its surface. Why this noise about debating how to be water best?
That sounds strange? What Hui Neng illustrated and what I try to get across time and again is that all this theory and all this making of many words and clever thinking and intellectual differentiation between categories can never tell what the essence, what the real nature of things and life and everything is. Words can only describe and point out what "it" is not. Thats why all claimed "holy scriptures" telling people what some cosmic superpower is and what it wants, are false scriptures. They in fact express the total antithesis to what they claim they are.
u crank
09-11-12, 07:15 PM
You are asking in what way to stirr a glass of water in order to clear it best. Must I tell you how to breathe? Must you want to tell the sun to rise in the morning and to settle in the evening? Can any written manual on how to breath help you to breath better? Will the sun shine brightier because you write down your theory on how to make it so? Ever tried to explain somebody how to keep the balance when putting one feet before the other, and how to not fall off a bicycle?
You do not need a second head on your shoulders. There already is one. Its the one you were born with. The idea that for 60, 70 years manifestates itself in your temporary form, has been there before you came, and it will be there after you have gone. Like soap bubbles embrace all the same space when they are there, and the space remains the same when the bubble bursts, and another one appears. The space inside and outside is always the same. The ocean is the same water, no matter what patterns waves form on its surface. Why this noise about debating how to be water best?
That sounds strange? What Hui Neng illustrated and what I try to get across time and again is that all this theory and all this making of many words and clever thinking and intellectual differentiation between categories can never tell what the essence, what the real nature of things and life and everything is. Words can only describe and point out what "it" is not. Thats why all claimed "holy scriptures" telling people what some cosmic superpower is and what it wants, are false scriptures. They in fact express the total antithesis to what they claim they are.
What you are saying here is the very basis of Eastern religion/philosophy. There is no answer or the answer is right/wrong. Whatever thoughts I have are the right/wrong answers and it doesn't matter any way because you can't know the right/wrong answer. All is relative to what makes 'me' happy or satisfied that all is well.
Is this enlightenment or is it madness?
"Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift"
I like a little truth on my enlightenment/madness quest.
Skybird
09-11-12, 08:10 PM
What you are saying here is the very basis of Eastern religion/philosophy. There is no answer or the answer is right/wrong. Whatever thoughts I have are the right/wrong answers and it doesn't matter any way because you can't know the right/wrong answer. All is relative to what makes 'me' happy or satisfied that all is well.
Is this enlightenment or is it madness?
Its your summary that does not match the thing you claim to have summarised.
Enlightenment is an all-or-nothign at-all thing. It cannot be gained step by step, but in total completeness only, suddenly. And it is nothing that is gained, but is something that is left behind. It is no qulaity, and no divine reward for doing the right things and living the right life. It is a state of mind. And this mind is fully aware of itseld, of life and world, and it does not overshadow these by its own judgements. In the words of socalled radical constructivism, it is the mind that is free to stop the construction process of perception - or to run it freely by own will and in full understanding of the process (miost people are totally unaware of the mechnaism by which their mind censors their perception, and how their intrinsic motivations influence it further: we do not find the "reality" in the process of perception, but we construct, and invent it).
Such a mind accepts responsibility, because somebody knowing how he himself is the cause of the way in which he organises and constructs perceptions, cannot claim somebody else as guilty for having caused it. Such a mind is free and unhindered, because it can arrange the perception patterns any way it wants. And such a mind is tolerant, because the freedom it experiences in its free choice to construct in this or that way, or not at all, it necessarily must realise to be the basis for the other'S mind, too.
Western psychoanalysis claims the automatic link between perception and reaction - which most often is an act of judging something - cannot be broken. Eatern mediation shows that one can absolutely learn to break up that automatism very well, but that takes discipline and dedication. And thus, learnign this taskes time. Many years in most cases. I would even say most people learn this all life long. Almost all.
I just have destroyed a long reply to somebody else, accidentally, when correcting some of my usualy many typos. Too bad. Will come back to it later. Ignoring how local sectarians have turned it into religion nevertheless for poltiical and control ambitions, Buddhism by core and essence is no religion. Like atheism is no religion, too. But Buddhism is atheistic. It does not tell you what to believe - it tells you not to believe at all, but to test and check and analyse yourself, and after empirically checking your own experiences, you then shall make a decision based on the common sense ethics of what is good both for the one and for the many, where as "many" here can refer to a context going beyond that of human community, and can include other life, nature, the ecosphere that we share with so many others). There is no deity whose commands are to be obeyed, and there should be no rites and rituals keeping people locked like running hamsters in a wheel, running al, the time, but not getting anywhere. But the busy mind is the mind that does not think about asking questions - and that is what religions really want: to prevent sovereign, educated, independent. own thinking. At least it is what they acchieve, and they seem to be not too unhappy with it.
Skybird
09-11-12, 08:52 PM
August,
Hui Neng was no barbar and no vandal, nor was he a conqueroir destroying other cultures by burnign their museums. what he is said to have done there, means that he iullustrated in a drastic way that if monks in the monastery wanted to become "enlightened", they had to give up the false belive that there is sometbign that could be gained, could be acchieved by doing the right procedures, or writing smart clever little theories about the nature of things and the meaning of life or to just trust and put blind faith into written scriptures.
Zen and Chna love to act by example, and they usually dispise long teahcings in words and writings. A simple act says so much more than a thousand words.
In Chan, which is the original China-based root of the tradition that later reached Japan and there turned into what today is called Zen, there is a strong mistrust against written delivery of traditions, because the intellectual as well as cognitive condensate - what together we call thinking - is organised in patterns and runs in structures that are not free, but gets heavily influenced by culture, education, envrionment input. Different body language and digfferent facial expression and mim ics as well as differing abilities to realise and correctly interprete these, for example is one consequence from these differences. Anbother is the totally different structure of languages - you cannot linearly translate Chinese into western languges like you tr alsate German into English.
Next, In Chan, enlightenment is seen as something that comes in total only, not in small quantities. It is a sudden, total experience sometimes described as a breaking-through. when the time is ripe and a student ios close to it, it was not rare that the master picked radical measures to make him jumpingk, running, falling, crawling over the last meter towards thwe "goal". The used their whip. The slapped them in the face. They yelled at them in sudden surporise. They kicked them, or threw them out of a window or down a shallow hill - whatever they saw fit. See it as a final slam of the fist on the table to wake up the student and make him suddenly aware.
Why isa this acceptable, you ask. Because, in this lkife, everything is uncertain and we cannot be sure of anything. Death is all alrund and can reach for us just any molmnent. There is no time to waste. To reach realisation of oneself, as enlightenment sometimes is described, is the only thing that counts. I the face of omnipresent death and the fact that all we do and acchieve is doomed to fail, apart again and to have been in vain, nothing else counts. Mediation, enlightenment - that is an issue of life and death. That sounds pathetic, but it is the simple truth. I would even go one step further and say: it is not about meditating, but about dying. And what has to die, is the illusion of what we call our ego.
What to you appears to be as an act of lacking civilisation (in case of China!?), of barbary and vandalism, in fact was an act of great love and affection, of deep insight, dedication and determination. What Hui Neng said when he destroyed the scrolls, was this: don'T accept bullsh!t, don't waste time, come to your senses and focus with all your power on what really counts. He also showed that way that any attempt to explain and to form theories and models about enlgithenment, must fail due to the limits of human language - and it is a neurophysical fact that our intellectual thinking runs along the schemes established by the structures of the languages we speak. Language patterns decide on thinking patterns, and vice versa. Since both are limited, they cannot form a correct image of the unlimited. Every verbal hint on what enlightenment is, necessarily must be misleading for that reason.
You cannot say in words what "it" is. You can only say in words what "it" is not. So, throw away the darkness of all blind conceptions and terms and labels. Free yourself of everything.
Sailor Steve
09-11-12, 09:03 PM
That's the only way to eat it. :har:
Ya think?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/167278.gif
You cannot say in words what "it" is. You can only say in words what "it" is not.
It all sounds great Sky and you have every right to believe in that stuff if it floats your boat but it's also besides the point.
Please don't get the idea that I think your guy is some kind of brigand. I don't. I just think that he had no right to destroy other peoples property like that. It's just another form of "ends justify the means" argument and while you can dress it up in the most noble of intentions it's wrong none the less.
Skybird
09-12-12, 05:59 AM
It all sounds great Sky and you have every right to believe in that stuff if it floats your boat but it's also besides the point.
Please don't get the idea that I think your guy is some kind of brigand. I don't. I just think that he had no right to destroy other peoples property like that. It's just another form of "ends justify the means" argument and while you can dress it up in the most noble of intentions it's wrong none the less.
Property...? This is all what it is about for you...??? Simple materialistic possession claims...? Wowh.
That is as absurd as the church selling the divine forgiving of sins for money (if you were poor, than you have a problem), or a priest saying that believers cannot enter God's paradise in the afterlife if entrance violates earthly laws and treaties and the curch's statutes on who can enter when and how and what dress to wear on that occasion.
You value the message as lower than the paper it has been fixed on. A Krämerseele you are! ;) ( a bean-counting salesman that is). Very German it sounds, too - not in a complimentary way, though.
But very religious it sounds as well. The surface counts more than the fundament. Obey. Don't seek rescue by your own. respect the authority of the - well, the authorities.
August, I tried to make it clear earlier. In the face of the transitoriness of all things being, and your life as well, nothing is important than to learn who you are and to learn how to avoid booking (due to lacking insight) another round on the wheel of life, because that turning fo the wheel means entering the realm of transitoriness again, and thus: means endless suffering. That is the basic logic behind Buddhism. Various sectarian major traditions later introduced variations of this, some focussing on a more social, altruistic view, others more on a more self-centered view, but that is not important here now.
And since you opened by indicating I "believe" something in there. I have a very sober view on these things, even cold-blooded, I sometimes got told. I do not know whether the wheel-of-life thing and reincarnation is to be taken literally or not - for evaluating that I lack own experience and background knowledge on the fundamentals running the universe. Karma to me only means: every cause has a reaction, and the link may be so complex and going over multiple levels and instances that it is hard to see maybe - and still: every cause has reaction. On enlightenment, I do not sign for for example Tibetan ideas on entering the land of Buddha in the four directions of the sky, nor do I think that a hundred thousand kneeling-downs on your way to the next shrine does you any good in your karmic balance sheet. What drives me is the uncertainty over the question of why things are, why I am and what this life is all about. Why is not simply nothing? What is my mind that thinks, and what are the things that I normally pressume to be like I see and hear them, while I know that their appearance is only an image, a construct in my brain - what is their real nature, then? How can I find out when I have no chznace to ever expereince their real essence direclty by my senses and my intellect? How to leave both behind and gain the immediate expereiunce? Can this even be had as long as I separate myself from them by thinking of them as "them" and think of myself as "me"?
And I think it is helpful to gain an attitude of mind, a mental discipline if you want, that does not immediately judge and thus rule in favour and against perceptions and ideas the very moment our senses have sent another sequence of chemical-electrical stimuli into our brains. I think to start by staying inactive and observe, may be helpful to see how things are moving, and gaining insight into their inside, their real nature, the patterns they form. It may also show helpful for myself - in order to stay calm, to become less and lesser a playing ball of my rampaging emotions and fears and other mental projections that I superimpose onto the world. The fear of never getting answers, not knowing what is after this life, still is there. But this way, it sometimes has become bearable, and cannot command me around anymore. Enlightenment seen this way is an attitude of mind, a state of mind. And although you alwaqys have it in full, it never stops to emrbace more and unfolds, like about evolution can be said that in any moment there is total perfection in every species existing, for it has reached as best a design as that design could have unfolded and developed in the time that has so far been available.
Believing has as much to do with it as it is a question of believing when you make a choice on whether you prefer the taste of lemon tea or peppermint. You check both, and then you know what you like. It is an empirically founded decision. Religions make even this complicated again, bringing in divine wills and heavenly laws when to drink what and why something else is claimed to be forbidden. That is believing, August. Basing on the common German translations of these terms, "belief" meansto take something that cannot be checked and analysed, as factual and proven truth nevertheless, a claim on a deity existing for example. "Faith" is somethign else. It is an empirically justified trust that comes from own and direct experience and is strengthened further by the results of such checks and analysis.
"Dear God, give us trust, but save us from believing" - this was written in these or very similiar words by Aldous Huxley, in "Island".
No easy answers there. Just images of reflections inside reflections, endlessly. He who wants easy answers and rules to follow, indeed just should pick up and read a manual and at the end make a test with multiple-choice items always offering just one answers. But that is a human life wasted, I say, a waste of human ressources and potentials (that waste is what makes me so hostile and angry towards religions). It's energy could as well have been spend to form a pigeon learning to pick a key to get a corn rewarded.
Property...? This is all what it is about for you...??? Simple materialistic possession claims...? Wowh.
Well either you respect other peoples personal property and right to worship God as they see fit or you do not. Apparently you and your book burning hero do not and calling me stupid foreign names isn't going to change or justify that.
Entering someones place of worship and destroying religious texts because you don't believe in what they say is nothing more than criminal vandalism. A hate crime on par with Islamists destroying Buddhist statues or burning the Library at Alexandria. I don't care if that's not what Hui Neng was about. As far as i'm concerned such behavior invalidates anything else this guy has to say.
You're like every other Zealot i've ever met. So convinced that your beliefs are the only "correct" beliefs possible that you're willing to justify just about anything. The truth of the matter is you do not have, and never will have, the right to tell others what they may or may not believe in.
Skybird
09-12-12, 09:00 AM
Well either you respect other peoples personal property and right to worship God as they see fit or you do not. Apparently you and your book burning hero do not and calling me stupid foreign names isn't going to change or justify that.
You're like every other Zealot i've ever met. So convinced that your beliefs are the only "correct" beliefs possible that you're willing to justify just about anything. The truth of the matter is you do not have, and never will have, the right to tell others what they may or may not believe in.
Man, komm mal wieder auf den Teppich. It was a Chinese Buddhist Chan monastery where they had scrolls with Chinese Buddhist teachings written by monks like those sitting in such monasteries - and you make it a civil rights case, basing on a superpedantic bean-counting thinking separated from the events by 12 hundred years. It was an educational demonstration and/or a display of Hui Neng's enlightenment in the meaning that he had broken through to an understanding of how limited all word-making necessarily always is. And you make it a bureaucratic formality of today's standards.
That is hilarious!
Entering someones place of worship and destroying religious texts because you don't believe in what they say is nothing more than criminal vandalism. A hate crime on par with Islamists destroying Buddhist statues or burning the Library at Alexandria. I don't care if that's not what Hui Neng was about. As far as i'm concerned such behavior invalidates anything else this guy has to say.
He did not enter that palce of worship, because he already lived there, the story goes. He was a helper in the kitchen, was somewhat too unadapted, nevertheless the abbot was aware of his potential and gave him permission to stay, and gave him separate teaching lessons. When he had Satori, he stormed out of the abbot's room and into the library. And no, the abbot was not angry. He confirmed his enligthenment instead.
And you think it was a culture clash, eh? Another Zen story given for educational illustration goes like this. The abbot sits on a small path at a mneadow, when a working monk comes along with a wheelbarrow. "Please, master, move your feet slightly to the side, so that I have room to pass", he asked. The abbot said "What rests, one should lket rest". The monk replied "And what rolls one should let roll", and rolled the wheelbarrow right over the abbot's feet. As far as I recall, the abbot on that day declared this moink to have fpound enlightenment. - You probably only see the act of physical assault in this, and form a law case of it.
I do not expect somebody who knows nothing about Zen to have an immediate understanding of why so much appears as absurd and counterintuitve in Zen and its tradition. You cannot understand that from all start on if it is all new to you. But what leaves me stunned is the narrow mind that tries to reduce it to materialistic acts of bureaucratic, formal meaning exslcusively. You see, all other people I told these stories asked "I do not understand, what is it aboiut, why did he do it, isn'ÄT that absdurd?" You file a comlaint at the court and think that is all about it. that illustrates an extremely minimilastic and reductionistic mindset, I would say, probably one that cannot even imagine the chance that something could be any different than what that mind already has decidced to take as the only possible option for defining how things can be - it'S own interpretation, that is.
Seen that way, your reaction is truly unique.
But what appears as absurd and illogical in Zen, has only this as a goal: to break apart right this thinking pattern, to push the student beyond the limits of right this kind of thinking that makes him believe that his ego is the master of the world. Breaking through the narrow, limited scope of the dualistic and polarising ordinary mindset that is the cause of all the conflicts we get ourselves entangled in. To give up judging, and for a start leave it to witnessing. It is a difference whether you say: "I don't like that woman in the street, that hilarious dress she wears, isn'T it impossible! Somebody really should have a qword with her about it", or whether you say "I see that women over there, she is dressed in that dress that really catches attention because of X, Y, and Z, and now she is heading for the busstop." - The first already emotionally rants, and reacts by habit without n ot being aware that it is habit controlling your reaction, and you start with already judging. The latter is just a sober witness report. Who of the two illustrates the mindset that is more free, independent, autonomous and sober? Which of thre two has the greater chance to rersult in you not dpoing harm to the overall situation, and if you act in the the context of this situation, has you acting on the basis ob fairtness and objectivity? Are you more free if you are controlled by habits that you leave unquestioned, and that you are not aware of, or by being reflective about yourself?
I offer no beliefs, although you have chosen with iron determination to claim the opposite, and by that distort reality for you do not want to deal with what I indeed really say. I do not even explkain the content of any such belief of my own that you claim I hold. All I do is two things: I ask questions on the nature of mental processes and our assumntpions about things, and I try to explain the working mode, the m,odus operandi, by which I am aware I construct the reality I prefer to live in. A working method, and the result of a working process, are two totally different things.
You can claim as often as you want that I believe this or that, and that I am a believer of "my things". Endless repetition as the only argument coming fro m you, does not makje a false statement of yours any less wrong. As I see it, what I tried to desribe is too alien from what you are used to, and it is so new and different from what you are used to take for the common way that you simply rtefuse to acept that it nevertheless does exist. Your modus operandi in other words is this: "It should not be so it cannot be, and thus I cut of some here, and add some things there, until it fits the schemes I am used to. Afterwards, I judge the result (that is my result and not the original source) by the standards I am used to."
A total confusion. ;) And form of fanatism that is extremely resistent to any form of influencing it, and that labels any act of defence against it as an aggression by the victim.
Scripture believers. Pffft. They often have burned infidels. I prefer to burn instead said scriptures that makes them that insane. In Cairo and Libya, a mob of blind hysterics running on lower instincts that got set aflame again, have stormed US diplomatic missions, a US envoy or ambassador was murdered. Over scripture.
Hottentot
09-12-12, 09:08 AM
I think Skybird's sikanautajauheliha is very hyppykeppi, but on the other hand August has a great karpalovadelmamehu. They both have their laatikkopiironkipöytä very puolijoukkueteltta but I'm still wondering if suihkumoottoriturbiini. In any case, it sure seems that Aku Ankalla on punainen auto. Correct?
I prefer to burn instead said scriptures that makes them that insane. In Cairo and Libya, a mob of blind hysterics running on lower instincts that got set aflame again, have stormed US diplomatic missions, a US envoy or ambassador was murdered. Over scripture.
Don't talk to me about murder. On this very forum you have advocated deliberately murdering the innocent children of Burmese generals in order to force them to allow more political freedom in their country.
That sir is the mark of a Zealot and in my eyes it makes you no better than the fanatics who stormed our embassies.
I think Skybird's sikanautajauheliha is very hyppykeppi, but on the other hand August has a great karpalovadelmamehu. They both have their laatikkopiironkipöytä very puolijoukkueteltta but I'm still wondering if suihkumoottoriturbiini. In any case, it sure seems that Aku Ankalla on punainen auto. Correct?
Absolutely. :har:
They both have their laatikkopiironkipöytä very puolijoukkueteltta but I'm still wondering if suihkumoottoriturbiini.
Wondering about that too. Perhaps lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliups eerioppilas?
Hottentot
09-12-12, 10:48 AM
Wondering about that too. Perhaps lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliups eerioppilas?
Well now you're just being näkkileipä. :stare:
Tribesman
09-12-12, 10:57 AM
Don't talk to me about murder. On this very forum you have advocated deliberately murdering the innocent children of Burmese generals in order to force them to allow more political freedom in their country.
That sir is the mark of a Zealot and in my eyes it makes you no better than the fanatics who stormed our embassies.
careful August you will be put back on his ignore list yet again.
You know what you say about people who get put on ignore lists.:haha:
Good post though.
mookiemookie
09-12-12, 11:04 AM
I think Skybird's sikanautajauheliha is very hyppykeppi, but on the other hand August has a great karpalovadelmamehu. They both have their laatikkopiironkipöytä very puolijoukkueteltta but I'm still wondering if suihkumoottoriturbiini. In any case, it sure seems that Aku Ankalla on punainen auto. Correct?
I actually went and looked most of that up. :har:
May the Schwartz be with you.........
Tribesman
09-12-12, 11:16 AM
May the Schwartz be with you.........
And ryvita with you
Hottentot
09-12-12, 11:21 AM
Ukko is going to smite you, heathen mansikkahillo people!
Betonov
09-12-12, 11:45 AM
So abstract, yet so effective.
This is Salvador Dali of thread derailment :o
And ryvita with you
Ahh tribesmen...your bacon fu is still impressive.
Enjoy.
AVGWarhawk
09-12-12, 12:24 PM
The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
Muhummad Ali
Penguin
09-12-12, 01:40 PM
Moro Dowly & Hottentott! :salute:
Kirjoitatte hyvin ruotsia tässä kierre! :O:
*ducks from flying puukkos*
Wo ich kaufe Lederhosen kann, das vom realen Schnurrbarthaar gebildet wird? :hmmm:
Mein Esel ist tot, you see. :-?
Skybird
09-12-12, 02:18 PM
Don't talk to me about murder. On this very forum you have advocated deliberately murdering the innocent children of Burmese generals in order to force them to allow more political freedom in their country.
That sir is the mark of a Zealot and in my eyes it makes you no better than the fanatics who stormed our embassies.
Nice attempt. But what for? There is no medal you can win here. So when you run out of argument, why don'T you just shut up, instead of trying cheats and defame others by intentionally misquoting them, giving yourself a bad name that way as a cheater. I recall that thread, it was years ago, it had nothing to do with the issue here, and I made a very different point back then than what you now imply in an attempt to give me bad name. But why caring for such subtleties when lies serve your purpose so much better.
I take from this desperate stunt that you have no more arguments to defend your confusion and that you ran out of knowledge on what is being talked about in this thread.
---
For the record, in a years ago ago thread about Burma I said that tyrants most likely educate their children in the same spirit they act by themselves, so that their children, when being grown up, do like their fathers; so in order to make tyrants like in Burma giving up their tyranny it could be considered legal to threaten their families or when upprise of th epeople occurs it may not be sufficient to justg kill the tyrant, but his offpsrings as well since else they will survive and bring back conflict later in a bid to regain what their fathers have lost. I also said, I think in a different thread at that time, that when it comes to weighing the fate of millions against the fate of a few, threatening the families of tyrants in order to make them give up their power can be considered a valid option. Compare to for exmaple the defence in some states for shooting down hijacked passanger planes, sacrificing the few in order to save the many on the ground. A policy that August's country subscribes to, btw, both regarding hijacked planes and collateral damages caused by drone warfare as well - the ratio the US finds acceptable between killed valid targets and collateral losses, rates higher than 1:10.
Why August linked a discussion on Chan buddhism and psychology to Burmese tyrant'S families instead of mentioning the shooting order for hijacked planes or the high rate of collateral losses by drone warfare, and why he thinks any of this has anything to do with an eplanation of the thinking frame of Chan buddhism, will remain his own secret. You could as well answer with "Blue" when somebody asks you for the time.
I take from this desperate stunt that you have no more arguments to defend your confusion and that you ran out of knowledge on what is being talked about in this thread.
No, I have stated my position on this quite clearly I think. Unlike you I don't have to resort to typing several pages of voluminous backpedaling and fake outrage just because someone calls you on a simple point about vandalism.
...threatening the families of tyrants in order to make them give up their power can be considered a valid option....
As I said at the time maybe that's a "valid option" in Skybirds world but it's not in the world of the sane. The very fact that you feel it is ok to commit these crimes tells us a lot about you, and let me say it's not a very flattering viewpoint.
Takeda Shingen
09-12-12, 02:59 PM
For the record, in a years ago ago thread about Burma I said that tyrants most likely educate their children in the same spirit they act by themselves, so that their children, when being grown up, do like their fathers; so in order to make tyrants like in Burma giving up their tyranny it could be considered legal to threaten their families or when upprise of th epeople occurs it may not be sufficient to justg kill the tyrant, but his offpsrings as well since else they will survive and bring back conflict later in a bid to regain what their fathers have lost. I also said, I think in a different thread at that time, that when it comes to weighing the fate of millions against the fate of a few, threatening the families of tyrants in order to make them give up their power can be considered a valid option. Compare to for exmaple the defence in some states for shooting down hijacked passanger planes, sacrificing the few in order to save the many on the ground. A policy that August's country subscribes to, btw, both regarding hijacked planes and collateral damages caused by drone warfare as well - the ratio the US finds acceptable between killed valid targets and collateral losses, rates higher than 1:10.
I, too, remember this discussion, and August is correct. Your assertion that the spilling of the blood of innocents in a 'just crusade' is a service of justicie is humanly cold, and ethically reprehensible. I am sorry, but you will have to own those remarks.
Why August linked a discussion on Chan buddhism and psychology to Burmese tyrant'S families instead of mentioning the shooting order for hijacked planes or the high rate of collateral losses by drone warfare, and why he thinks any of this has anything to do with an eplanation of the thinking frame of Chan buddhism, will remain his own secret. You could as well answer with "Blue" when somebody asks you for the time.
He did it becuase it is reference to the mindset of an adherent to a particular philosophy. For you, nearly any collateral damage is permissible so long as the means to end are met. This is a dangerous view. This, contrary to your statement, has everything to do with the issue at hand. There is no misquote inherent. You claim there is in your first paragraph, but then concede this in your third. Inconsistency indeed.
And for emphasis:
A policy that August's country subscribes to
As does your's and every other nation on earth. The self-preservation of nation-states is universal. Pointing out the stick in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in your own is not virtuous.
Skybird
09-12-12, 05:54 PM
I, too, remember this discussion, and August is correct. Your assertion that the spilling of the blood of innocents in a 'just crusade' is a service of justicie is humanly cold, and ethically reprehensible. I am sorry, but you will have to own those remarks.
I do not deny that somethign was said by me at that time. I deny that it was like you and Augiust make it appear now. I also deny that it was that context-less as you and August now claim it was.
Quoting out of context and by that distort what somebody said and give it a bad twist is one of the often committed sins in this forum, and August is one of the most prominent masters of this art. But it is cheating, it is rude rethoric tricking. It is the reason why I had him on the ignore list for so long.
Another example for what I - so often in these years - complained about:
You could also foul-name me by saying that "Skybird wants nuclear wars". In a way it is correct that I expressed something like that - but it is also wrong. I did not talk about general nuclear war and nuking other states at random will. The point is,I said I will carefully selected nuclear strikes with mini-nukes agfainst certain ultra-hardened Iranian key componnents that now are driven deep inside mountains, for I doubt these can be reached and destroyed by any conventional ammuntiion anymore. Sopmebody once "auoted" me with that I want tio nuke cities. This I never said. And I also never spoke out in favour of anything like an arbitrary conflict anywhere on the globe being turned into a nuclear war at the first possible opportunity. So, you can refer to me and say I do not rule out nuclkear strikes in prinicple when it comes to Iran, or the Pakistani weapon stiocks beiung ijn danger to fall into terrorist hands. But when you do not mention the context in which I said that, and when you are not precise regarding what I really said, then you intneitonally distort what I said, hoping to score an easy rehtoric victory without having to care for an argument .
What it comes down to is that August runs by a method - also in discussions with others that turn angry - of that just anything is allowed if somebody opposes his views and he runs out of reasonable arguments. He then draws it to the personal level, very often. Note that his last post to me to which I answered did not include any argument on the matter of this thread at all, and he also did not refer to anything I tried to explain to him, when I saw that it was new stuff for him. It was just an attempted defamation on the basis of a distorted quote, and more it never was meant to be. That's cheap. The only forum members I remember to exceed his excellence in doing so, are Tribesman, and Subman1. Although Tribesman, last time I read him (and that is a long time ago), was camping in a very different opinion camp, by method he and August operate by the same standards.
In the end, Tak, August does not like when religions get rejected in their claim to be granted special rights and special freedoms and special exceptions from general rules to which everybody else is being subjected by law. And you do not like that rejection, too. But religious people like you should ask themselves why you claim the right to push your freedoms at the cost of others who not only not share your belief, but also claim the right to not be bothered by you practicing it. And this is where I compare to the neighbour in the flat beside your appartement, the one running his radio too loud. I refuse to accept that whenever he becomes npoisy with it, I need to go there and knock his door and friendly or angrily tell him to turn his damn music silent so that I am not forced to share his loife and radio program. I insist that people all by themselves play thaeir damn radios in such a manner that their neighbours must not be bothered in the first. But religious missionaries - and there are many here on this board - do not accept that and think their freedom to act as they want is more precious and valid than that of others not wanting to get bothered by them. It is ab out double standards. Priviliged standards for relgious ones, and infidels, or wqorse: atheists, are expected to accept taking the longer road, to give room, to fall back. And when they don't and refuse to buy bull and insist their freedom is not of less value than that of relgious people - then they get called the aggressors and the intolerant ones. But looking at the special rights granted to religions already the many exceptions from laws, taxes, jurisdiction, the special status they can act on in society and public sectors like education and health, it is hardly convincing to claim that religions are "under attack" and are the victims of evil atheist being on the march. That is a classical projection - to accuse others of what one is practicing oneself.
Leave relgion to thyself. Yur porcious opersonal beleif is just this: private. Where you turn it to the public, you turn your religion into politics, anbd yourself you turn ionto an aggressor. Whjat you see as your idol, and your relation as you define it, is an intimate thing between it and you. Dont' bother the world with it. You have no right to demand the world nedding to take note of it,k catring for it, accepting to give you special status because of it. Your freedoms end where you start to limit the freedom of others. Your claim to be peaceful turns into a lie where you expect the other to react to your advance, may it be that the other should tell you he does not want to deal with you, may it be that the other should evade so that you have your way, may it be that you demand entrance into education and law-making on the grounds of your religion. Where you expect the other to behave lime this, you are the agressor.
And that is what I bare my fangs about. I do not want to tell my neighbour time and again to turn down his ****ing radio - i de,mand him to take care all by himself tha he does not turn it up too much from all start on. Don'T bother me, and I don'T bother you. Start to push me, and the more I push back, increasingly angry. It'S so easy to coexist and live peacefully with me, door by door. Some call it the Golden Rule. I call it reciprocity.
u crank
09-12-12, 06:03 PM
Its your summary that does not match the thing you claim to have summarised.
Agreed. It was a very broad generalization done in haste.
Enlightenment is an all-or-nothign at-all thing. It cannot be gained step by step, but in total completeness only, suddenly.
Have had a similar experience.
And it is nothing that is gained, but is something that is left behind. It is no qulaity, and no divine reward for doing the right things and living the right life. It is a state of mind.
Again, a similar experience.
And this mind is fully aware of itseld, of life and world, and it does not overshadow these by its own judgements.
Such a mind accepts responsibility, because somebody knowing how he himself is the cause of the way in which he organises and constructs perceptions, cannot claim somebody else as guilty for having caused it. Such a mind is free and unhindered, because it can arrange the perception patterns any way it wants. And such a mind is tolerant, because the freedom it experiences in its free choice to construct in this or that way, or not at all, it necessarily must realise to be the basis for the other'S mind, too.
An on going process and a challenging one for sure.
I would ask this question, Skybird, in regards to any so called enlightenment. Is it only enlightenment when it meets the criteria set by some people who claim to have achieved it or claim to know what it is? What right do they have to make such a claim? This smacks of the same kind of religious indoctrination and dogma that some here have railed against. I realize that meditation and Buddhism are Atheistic in belief but since atheists believe that God is an invention of man then in all cases we are left with the mere opinions of other humans regardless of how they arrived at them.
..and there should be no rites and rituals keeping people locked like running hamsters in a wheel, running al, the time, but not getting anywhere. But the busy mind is the mind that does not think about asking questions - and that is what religions really want: to prevent sovereign, educated, independent. own thinking. At least it is what they acchieve, and they seem to be not too unhappy with it.
Now I am afraid it is you who is making a generalization. There are many people who have a religious/theistic/spiritual life who do not live like this nor do they allow others to dictate the path that they should take. Quite the opposite in fact. Yes there are many obedient sheep, but I would question their actual belief and their knowledge about that belief.
Buddhism by core and essence is no religion. Like atheism is no religion, too. But Buddhism is atheistic.
Maybe so but Buddhism has some remarkable beliefs. One is rebirth, a process whereby beings go through a succession of lifetimes as one of many possible forms of sentient life, each running from conception to death. I wonder if you believe this.
I for one do not care what I come back as, as long as it is not a hamster.
What it comes down to is that August runs by a method - also in discussions with others that turn angry - of that just anything is allowed if somebody opposes his views and he runs out of reasonable arguments. He then draws it to the personal level, very often.
That's quite a selective memory you have there Skybird. You call me derogatory names in two languages then you accuse me of making it personal. :roll:
Why can't you just admit that your hero was wrong in this instance and let it go at that? The fact that Takeda and I actually agree on something ought to tell you that you're way out in left field here.
But no, I guess you won't get it because like all Zealots you can brook no hint of dissension to your inspired vision. You'll continue to publish 5000 word rants that drip with pompous condescension and that nobody will read in a vain effort to prove your point because you see yourself as some kind of authority. Kinda sad really...
Skybird
09-12-12, 08:32 PM
That's quite a selective memory you have there Skybird. You call me derogatory names in two languages then you accuse me of making it personal. :roll:
Why can't you just admit that your hero was wrong in this instance
Neither is he "my hero" (if that is not derogatory, then what could ever be...), nor are you in a position to judge him, since you simply do not know enough, or anything, about the man, what he stands for, and his historic importance. Nor do you care at all to get yourself a little education about the man - I bet you have not made one attempt to use the web to find out a bit more about him. All you know is one anecdote that is being told in Zen only for illustrating purpose to not overestimate the value of helpful tools, for tools are not the item they create nor the object they point at. Zen "hates" sticking with rites and written traditions. Its all just ballast, and misleads people.
I do not mock you for not knowing that. If you never came into contact with Zen and never heared anything about it, then you cannot know, and so I tried to give some basic epxlanations oin the thinking behind Zen and its psychological model, and my description by far is not complete in any way - but you already complain m aboitzu "walls of texts". What I mock you for is your arrogance to judge something that you do not know, and your obvious pride you take from wanting to stay in thnat state, while nevertheless still criticising the matter nevertheless. You know, a true sceptic knows what he is criticising. You are not knowing the matter. You are not sceptical therefore - you are partisan, prejudiced. It would have been easy to google a bit and find one of many sites giving biographic notes on the man (whose authenticity by far is not beyond doubt, btw), or a brief introduction on the thinking of Zen, and why it does what it does in the way that forms its tradition. But an August does not need to know some of that in order to know all about it nevertheless. And that is what I am laughing about.
That is no glorification of an idol that I am preaching. I am simply aware that the direct pragmatism of the figure - whether it be a historically correctly described figure or a partially invented, partially artifical figure - has had an influence and importance in the history of Chan/Zen that cannot be overestimated. The value lies in the method of teaching teachers like Hui Neng, and some others of the so-called "giants of Zen". I simply know much more on that matter than you do, in a factual, academic way, since you heared of it the first time yesterday, while I have been dealing with such teachings since the better part of my life, and have taught it to others as well. His rank compares to for example Kant'S importance for Western philosphy, or Newton's in Western science. If you talk about Chan, you cannot avoid three names, three giants: Lin Chi, Hui Neng, Huang Po - that would be like a history of poetry that does not mention Shakespeare, or Goethe.
And would anyone call Goethe a sexist barbar because he wrote "Kaum seh' ich deine Schenkel, denk ich gleich an Enkel"...?
At stake for thze searching student is simply everything, life and death. Nothing is important in the face of this, like nothing is important in the face of death. The story that you do not get along with, has massive educational, illustrating value - that'S why it is being told. And that is what counts. The historic authenticity is, like with many Zen stories, "under debate".
And you get fixiated on issues over property laws. While the library belonged to the monastery. :haha:
And you get fixiated on issues over property laws. While the library belonged to the monastery. :haha:
You think this is about laws?! Now it's my turn to :haha:
Go to bed Skybird. Your fantasy world will still be there when you wake up. :salute:
Skybird
09-12-12, 09:34 PM
Have had a similar experience.
Congrats, if that is so, then you are a fully realised Buddha, the returning messiah in Chrsitian terminology, and you are far ahead of me - since I never had a Satori experience like this, I think. My mere doubt proves that I never had it for sure.
I would ask this question, Skybird, in regards to any so called enlightenment. Is it only enlightenment when it meets the criteria set by some people who claim to have achieved it or claim to know what it is?
You already went into the trap here. that is why Zen does not like written traditions and thweopreticl studies and clasiscal teaching, but focusses on the ordinary things to do. The relation between master and student, in Asia traditionally differently settled than in the West, is beyond words, and is utmost direct, and must be so. That is hard to explain and cannot even be "described" in words. There is nothing to be described in words, you see. Words just mislead, they call into life all the catogorial thinking and polariszatrion of the images in your minds. A rose is not a rose when you call it that. A rose is the immediate, direct sensation of seeing it, smelling it, hearing the wind in its leaves, seeing it bowing in the moving air - but you cannot pack that into words: youmust experience it.
that is what it is about: own, direct, immediate experience. Awareness in everything you do, every moment you realise, everything that happens to you. Another Zen story goes like this:"Wonder oh marvellous wonder! I chop wood and carry water!" I liked to lead students' focus either to their breathing - or to their hands. Watching it, looking at it, seeing it moving, turningk, the fingers, the figurs you can form with it, the things it can do: what a wonderful tool a human hand is! A true and rteal miracle by design.
You see, there is nothign that can be taught, and there is nothign that you miss. You just need to ralsie it by giving up illusions. Enlightenment is not about something to be gained, but about something to be let. There is nothing you can gain. You must not "do". Just let things, and lead your awareness to what is going on in the focus of your mind. Be aware. Witness, do not judge.
What right do they have to make such a claim? This smacks of the same kind of religious indoctrination and dogma that some here have railed against. I realize that meditation and Buddhism are Atheistic in belief but since atheists believe that God is an invention of man then in all cases we are left with the mere opinions of other humans regardless of how they arrived at them.
Sigh. Atheists do not believe something. Atheists say that if somebody claims God existsa, they want evidence, and until then they say it is unlikjely that he does excist, like it is un likely to thinkg that babies are brought by the stgork as long as you do not prove it. Relgious people claim to kjnow how things are and that God is. Atheists know that they do not know. in logics, you cannot prove the nonexiostence of something, it is impossible, like you cannot divide numbers by zero.
originally, Chan does not hold a dogma or law code that is being told. You seem to compare it to church business, or any of the great world religions' practices. It is not like that - though there were many sects in Buddhism that brought it down to the level of ordinary religion indeed, for reasons of political control and influence over the crowds - Asia was not immune to make the same mistakes like the europeans did with Jesus). People, crowds crave for being led, they want to be led, and thus they fall so easily for false prophets and illmeaning leaders.
There is no manual with categories for englightenment, and when the candidate scores enough points, tha n he is made a Buddha. Nonsense. Master and student have a most direct relation and - bull, I try the impossible although I should know it better. Forget what I said, its all bull. :) In reply to your question I give you to different alternatives instead to learn about it.
First a wonderful film with almost no words in it, from Korea, I think 1988. "Why has Bodhidharma left for the East?" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bodhi-Dharma-Left-East-Region-NTSC/dp/B000UGBOX6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1347503806&sr=8-2)The film is beautiful like a poem that has been transformed into pictures, it is very calm and uses almost no words. Watch it not with your eyes, but with your heart, and you will learn a lot about what you ask for here. You can find out about it here: LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Has_Bodhi-Dharma_Left_for_the_East%3F).
Second, the only book that I have kept from my former Buddhist library (that I collected in my foolish years :) is a book by my secind mentor, after I had left Berlin and my first one had died: Wolfgang Kopp: Free yourself of everything. Radical guidance in the spirit of Chan and Christian Mysticism (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Yourself-Everything-Christian-Enlightenment/dp/0804819890/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1347502547&sr=8-9). Cheap kindle version available. The book is not too long, is straight and has no time to waste with mild politeness and flattering. It is somewhat uncompromised and leaves the reader no space to evade in srearch of comfortable consolation and shortcuts. This book is a bazooka against candy-sweet esoteric fantasy-religion and rainbow-coloured naivety. It compares Christian and Chan texts, and teaches you why it is important to die the "mystical death". Period. I have recommended this book often - most people do not read beyond the first few pages - they do not like the uncompromised directness of the text. You want easy solutions and some more entertainment? Spiritual fireworks and happy group sit-ins? Then look elsewhere. what the book does not tell you is about the practice, you cannot teach that in words, you must DO it, and preferrably under supervision by a realised master. Adn these guys are rare, I tell you. I consider myself to be an extremnelyl blessed and gifted man that I were found by such rare persons not juzst once but even twice in my life. I'm a lucky dog. The author btw, was the one who kicked my a$$ and threw me out again vcery early, saying that he coulkd not teach me any more and that nmow I should teach meditation mywself to pepple, which I did for several years. Without his well-meant aggression i maybe would never have gotten that act of my life together - due to fear.
Its the only book I hand to people when they ask for a book about Buddhism. academical study is all nice and well when you want to write a paper, but for your own spiritual cause it helps not at all. It even is a hindering obstacle, and deafens your mind. Find a real master. Or better: let yourself get found. When you are ripe for it, you will be found.
Maybe so but Buddhism has some remarkable beliefs. One is rebirth, a process whereby beings go through a succession of lifetimes as one of many possible forms of sentient life, each running from conception to death. I wonder if you believe this.
I do not know whether it is like this, but I warn to take symbols too literal. I find it very unlikely that I get reborn as a worm when I behave too badly, however, I think nothing goes lost in this unioverse, and nothing gets added, and every cause is followed by a consequnce, no matter how subtle it may be, no matter how well it may be hidden in complexity. Buddha was asked oine day whether there is a surviving indiovidual soul, and he said a clear and sounding "No". However, the thing to be mentionjed here is the idera of atman and an-atman, ego and non-ego. For buddhism, our egolk our ordinary self-conceptions, are just an illusion thatz feeds itself and lets us beolieve in dualiostic terms basiong on the dseparation between "me" and "the world". This individual ego/atman runs by motoions of the mind, which are classified in five categories of decreaisng matetrial density, called skandhas. Buddha denied the lasting nature of such a sould or ego or atman, however he taught that the real self is beyond the individual level, is a non-self (anatman), and maybe it can be grabbed in that nordic and Indsian idea of the collective "world soul". However. That already is much os destracting theory again that helps you nothing in mastering this life that you must live right now, in this moment. I personally am very surfe that not the smallest individual qualkity of myself will survive beyoidn my death. But I do not rule out that there is something beyond death. Of course that makes it difficult for me to beleiie a too linear and simplified idea like causal, linear rebirthing or reincarnation. maybe Carl sagan pout it well when saying "We are all star stuff". When hearing that the first time, for a long time I saw no need to find words in reply to that.
I for one do not care what I come back as, as long as it is not a hamster.
This world is transoitory, and thus life is suffering - the most basic truth in buddhism. Maybe the trick is not to come back at all. And maybe it is altruism making you agreeing to come back nevertheless.
One can play the thinking game until all heaven falls down. Better focus on what you are doing right now. Send all that holiness to hell, and get your things done, and don't do one thing - with your mind being somewhere else. Thats more worth than a hundred temple visits , fifty clever books you learn to recite freely, or a spell given by the pastor.
Hottentot
09-12-12, 11:13 PM
Moro Dowly & Hottentott! :salute:
Kirjoitatte hyvin ruotsia tässä kierre! :O:
*ducks from flying puukkos*
I help him learn the basics of our noble language so that he can one day become a citizen 1st class in the great empire of Finland instead of a potato peeler. I even teach him the proper greeting to make him come across as a civilized being instead of one of those lunatics fenced inside the Ring III. And this: this is how he stabs me in the back.
Et tu, Spheniscus magellanicus?
(:O:)
gimpy117
09-12-12, 11:49 PM
what is it I said?
even the trolls here have over 1,00 posts
sorry Yubba, but ti's your personal belief and all, but please don't belittle others. it's free speech and all, but just because you can...
Penguin
09-13-12, 05:26 AM
I help him learn the basics of our noble language so that he can one day become a citizen 1st class in the great empire of Finland instead of a potato peeler. I even teach him the proper greeting to make him come across as a civilized being instead of one of those lunatics fenced inside the Ring III. And this: this is how he stabs me in the back.
Et tu, Spheniscus magellanicus?
(:O:)
Beware the ides of September. :D
Actually I am not sure if my sentence was correct. Using google translate to check how they translate it, the first part made not much sense - so I guess it's right, while the second part was translated correctly - so it must be wrong. :know:
Should I also have used the inessive case with the last word, or is it enough to use it for 'täma'?
Hottentot
09-13-12, 05:53 AM
Beware the ides of September. :D
I think this calls for Operation "Total Defense". Dowly, do you have the potato salad? I'll bring the horse. Meet you at you-know-where, don't be followed.
Using google translate to check how they translate it, the first part made not much sense - so I guess it's right, while the second part was translated correctly - so it must be wrong. :know:That's...actually exactly right. The first part was flawless, but the "tässä kierre" part was lost in translation. It would mean "here spiral" (or a twist, I suppose), which is probably not what you meant?
Beware the ides of September. :D
Actually I am not sure if my sentence was correct. Using google translate to check how they translate it, the first part made not much sense - so I guess it's right, while the second part was translated correctly - so it must be wrong. :know:
Should I also have used the inessive case with the last word, or is it enough to use it for 'täma'?
The only thing wrong with it was the word "kierre", I guess you mean't the word thread,
which I'd translate to "ketju"(=chain) in this case. Then, there's the stuff
you need to apply to the end of the word, so the correct sentence would be:
Kirjoitatte hyvin ruotsia tässä ketjussa.
Betonov
09-13-12, 06:05 AM
Ma, usi ste mal prtegnen
Hottentot
09-13-12, 06:18 AM
Ma, usi ste mal prtegnen
Puhusis sääki suamee vaa ulukomuanelävä.
And thanks, Dowly. :up:
Penguin
09-13-12, 06:18 AM
The only thing wrong with it was the word "kierre", I guess you mean't the word thread,
which I'd translate to "ketju"(=chain) in this case. Then, there's the stuff
you need to apply to the end of the word, so the correct sentence would be:
Kirjoitatte hyvin ruotsia tässä ketjussa.
Ah, thanks, yes, thread was what I meant, and i also had to attend this weird inessive case for the last word too. *putting a knot in my brain*
In German you can also use the word 'Faden' for a (internet) thread, or better 'Diskussionsfaden' - so I thought it might also apply in Finnish.
Penguin
09-13-12, 06:20 AM
Ma, usi ste mal prtegnen
Moje vozilo na zracni blazini je polno jegu! :huh:
HunterICX
09-13-12, 06:27 AM
Met de billen bloot op de paus z'n schoot.
HunterICX
Wot the gypsy nell is garn on 'ere. Load of strange rabbit if you ask me.
u crank
09-13-12, 06:26 PM
Congrats, if that is so, then you are a fully realised Buddha, the returning messiah in Chrsitian terminology.....
The key word there was similar. I think you know what I meant, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Sigh. Atheists do not believe something...
My original thought here had nothing to do with Atheism, but rather with Buddhism and meditation and Atheism's view of them. Buddhism is a religion, granted one without a deity. Meditation and Zen are directly related to this religion. For Atheists to criticize other religions and give Buddhism a pass is kinda funny.
Again I stress that Buddhism is not a theistic belief but many of the things criticized in Theistic religions are present in Buddhism. Some examples.
- The historical Buddha. Accounts of his life, discourses, and monastic rules are believed by Buddhists to have been summarized after his death and memorized by his followers. Various collections of teachings attributed to him were passed down by oral tradition, and first committed to writing about 400 years later. Gee that sounds familiar.
-Some of his teaching and beliefs.
Buddha was asked oine day whether there is a surviving indiovidual soul, and he said a clear and sounding "No".
Why should I believe this? Did he prove it or is it just his opinion? Billions of people would disagree.
-The Inequality of Women. Although in Western Buddhist practice this is not common in traditional practice and history, Buddhism is gender bias. Again this sounds familiar.
-Divisions within Buddhism. Buddhist traditions all claim that through a long and accurate teacher-student lineage, their practices were those ordained by the Buddha. Yet major divisions exist between the branches of Buddhism as to what practices are good, what are bad, and what the beliefs of the religion are.
There are many others but I think I've made my point. I realize that you are not a practising Buddhist but the relationship between Zen and meditation and Buddhism is quite plain. This has nothing to do with Atheism or belief in a deity. It is about practising something whose origins are just as questionable as any religion.
If Zen and meditation have made your life better this is good. I am happy for you but it is not for me. I do not wish to replace my present reality of mind with another. I am at peace and have no enemies. I am confident about the future. Am I delusional? Well that's possible but it's a chance we all take. It's a dangerous world.
P.S.
To any Buddhist who may read this, I hope I have not offended you. The points made were for the sake of the discussion.
To quote MH, May the Schwartz be with you.........
Skybird
09-13-12, 07:25 PM
My original thought here had nothing to do with Atheism, but rather with Buddhism and meditation and Atheism's view of them. Buddhism is a religion, granted one without a deity. Meditation and Zen are directly related to this religion. For Atheists to criticize other religions and give Buddhism a pass is kinda funny.
Again I stress that Buddhism is not a theistic belief but many of the things criticized in Theistic religions are present in Buddhism. Some examples
Many Buddhist authors woudl disagree with you, and like me would point out that the essence of Buddhism does not matchz the purpose to serve as a funda,mewnt for rtelgion. However, I admitted that nevertheless it was picked up by politicians and preists and distrorted and complemented with rites and riotuals and hierarchies and all that institutional stuff that indeed turned them then into relgious business like any other. But to me that is not the real essence of it.
I find the parallels b etween essential Buddhism and essential Jesus'
message stunning. I am not the first comparing Zen and Christian Mysticism therefore. The book I recommended also bases on that. And indeed, I would claim that Christian Mysticism also is no relgion.
Why should I believe this? Did he prove it or is it just his opinion? Billions of people would disagree.
You should believe nothing, not him, not me, not anybody. You should care for yourself. From the Kalamas Sutra which is famous for its encouragement of freed inquiry, the one passage that to me is one of the most important revelations about Buddhism there is:
Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience. Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
-The Inequality of Women. Although in Western Buddhist practice this is not common in traditional practice and history, Buddhism is gender bias. Again this sounds familiar.
That is a cultural thing going beyond Buddhism. Today there are Buddhist female abbots both in Asia and the West. However, as I admitted two times now, Buddhism was hijacked by politicians indeed to serve as a tool for controling the crowd, securing priviliges and gaining power and authority. But that is not what Buddha taught, and not what Jesus taught. Until today I cannot get the church and the story of the cleansing of the temple under one hood. And whgile I do not want to defend the Chineses' actions over Tibet, one thning theya claim in defence, is correct: the ruling of the Tibrtan schools of Buddhism has had a very supressive effect on the ordinary population, secured priviliges and control for kind of an elite caste. To me, Tibetan Buddhism is a Buddhist parallel to the Catholic church.
-Divisions within Buddhism. Buddhist traditions all claim that through a long and accurate teacher-student lineage, their practices were those ordained by the Buddha. Yet major divisions exist between the branches of Buddhism as to what practices are good, what are bad, and what the beliefs of the religion are.
Test and check yourself, with reason and logic. Yes, much there is distportion, is esoteric hamsterwheeling- but you are free to choose. As I see it, the basic teachings of Chan are what it is about, and these teachings are such that they do not support the founding of a relgious circus and all that. they are empirically founded, they base on your own experience of explorating your mind, and are open to validation andf falsification. that quotre from the Kalamas Sutra has much, very much to do with it. You should not believe - no them, not me, not in anything - how often must I repeat this before you hear it?
There are many others but I think I've made my point. I realize that you are not a practising Buddhist but the relationship between Zen and meditation and Buddhism is quite plain. This has nothing to do with Atheism or belief in a deity. It is about practising something whose origins are just as questionable as any religion.
I tested it, and since a long time. From my yoluth on I got trained privately by a colleague of my father, a Japanese who trained me together with his son, for over ten years, in Zen, Bushido, swords, meditation - daily. He was like a second father to me. I then left Berlin for studying at university, and there learned students practicing Tibetan Buddhism, Nyigma lineage and Kagyu lineage. I lived in a Buddhist center for several months, trying to combine psychology and therapy with Buddhist psychology and meditation. But I have strong reservations over Tibetan practicing, see above. It is indeed religion and cult and showbiz and money-making, and that is why I don'T like it. Then came the years when I started to travel, North africa and the Middle East, my exploration into Islam, if you want, and at that time I was introduced to Wolfgang Kopp whom I recommend to you by his book. He heads a Tao-Chan centre here in Germany and is so-called dharma-successor of a well-known French Zen-master. He became my second mentor, and although I only met him some times, these meetings were incredibly intense, personal, and mutually intimate. He then threw me out, saying that he could not offer me any more than what I already had, and that I should start teaching myself. Which I did. I ran meditation classes in a "culture-free" setting for several years, every morning.
So you see, there was a time when I was young and stupid, and when I took risks on trips that I should have not taken, and when I took pride in claiming myself to be "Buddhist" - while all I did by doing so was illustrating what a fool I was. Today, I do not care for such labels, and that is why your description of whether you think I am a practicing Buddhist or not, is competely pointless to me - think what you want, its your pictures in your brain, not mine. ;) If people ask me for a self-description today, I leave it to saying that I consider myself to be a spiritual atheist. I enjoy to see eyebrows frowning then, but it is the most precise description for sure that I can give. Not that any of that matters, not for me, not for anyone else.
If Zen and meditation have made your life better this is good. I am happy for you but it is not for me. I do not wish to replace my present reality of mind with another.
As long as you accept responsibility for your choice and realise that your choice is an active act by you and nothing that happened to you, that's fine for you. I did not approach you, and I never meant to missionise you. I explained some things (more or less...) after you stated some things and asked me over some things. What you make of that does not affect me, as I see it. I just claim the right to take you by your words - that'S why there was some head-banging in the past between the two of us.
To any Buddhist who may read this, I hope I have not offended you. The points made were for the sake of the discussion.
Heck, have people become sensible these days. Some quotes by House on my mind, but okay...
u crank
09-14-12, 04:18 PM
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
This is wisdom and well worth considering.
I read with great interest you history with regards to your training and interest in Zen and meditation. This helps me greatly in understanding where you are coming from on this and other topics. Thank you for sharing.
If people ask me for a self-description today, I leave it to saying that I consider myself to be a spiritual atheist. I enjoy to see eyebrows frowning then, but it is the most precise description for sure that I can give. Not that any of that matters, not for me, not for anyone else.
I for one am not frowning. It matters a little.
... I did not approach you, and I never meant to missionise you. I explained some things (more or less...) after you stated some things and asked me over some things. What you make of that does not affect me, as I see it. I just claim the right to take you by your words - that'S why there was some head-banging in the past between the two of us.
A little head banging is good. Keeps us sharp. No doubt we will have the pleasure again. :D
A final thought. One thing I am convinced of as I get older is that the old saying it is better to laugh than to cry is sound advice. I do not consider that this life is a joke, but it is definitely a comedy of sorts. Absurdity is best handled with a grin.
Take care.
Skybird
09-14-12, 06:10 PM
:salute:
"To fathom Zen means to fathom ourselves; to fathom ourselves means to forget ourselves; to forget ourselves means to find our original nature." (Dogen, 13th century).
Compare with Kant's philosophy on insight - and it's limits set by the material nature of our existence.
It is called controlled freakiness, with the onset of god like behavior, able to turn ones words around to make new meaning, sounds like one of my X's. Be back got a picture of a doggie to move. See this is the picture that started it all, I didn't figure it would be the bases of a thread. I knew Nikimcbee would have got a kickout of it as the caption was{ looks like someone jumped ship} you don't know what critters do when they sneak out, up in the pt model forum ... OOOOhh it's policial,,, no it's a dog in a sweater. My case in point. Now it is political. Have a good time with this thread, I know i will. OOOppss almost forgot to move doggie in sweater picture.http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ofaxxxx_obama_dog_sweater-620x620.jpg (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/here-are-the-14-most-absurd-things-for-sale-on-the-obama-website/ofaxxxx_obama_dog_sweater/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc
Hottentot
09-23-12, 11:32 AM
I declare this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izibSMAQhEY) the official theme music of this thread.
soopaman2
09-23-12, 11:36 AM
Your right Yubba!
Right wing fascist extremism is so much better!
Mussolini/Scalia in 2012.
HunterICX
09-23-12, 11:47 AM
I declare this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izibSMAQhEY) the official theme music of this thread.
No....this one's better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwup4ItqyNQ
HunterICX
I declare this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izibSMAQhEY) the official theme music of this thread. You can call it what ever you like,, just don't call me late for supper. I maybe touched in the head but I'd never would want to take your big gulps away from you or tell you what kind of light bulb to use, that's if you have any power,, 200 coal fireplants to close within months most in Ohio, West Virginia which I like to call East Ohio, Virginia, Pennsico which will loose at least half of it's power production. I'll get the link in a bit meanwhile do your own home work.
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 11:51 AM
Now it is political.
No, now it's trolling.
It might have been innocent enough; what made it political is the Obama shirt, coupled with your known hostility toward the current president. Any other shirt might have been harmless. Do you deny that was your intent in the original post?
Your right Yubba!
Right wing fascist extremism is so much better!
Mussolini/Scalia in 2012.
At least we still abide to a constitution, you guys just line us up along a freshly dug ditch you know like they have done in the past, you seen all the pretty pictures of that.
To this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YszlftVHEa8
Thread.
:har:
soopaman2
09-23-12, 11:57 AM
At least we still abide to a constitution, you guys just line us up along a freshly dug ditch you know like they have done in the past, you seen all the pretty pictures of that.
Oh yeah, I am a big Nazi!
So right Yubba. Sieg hiel!
Was it not your Bush who came up with the Patriot act? Who's the Nazi again? Doesn't that circumvent due process in many ways, hmmm?
Guantanimo was created under who? What was his affiliation, offshore concentration camp. Hmmmm
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 11:57 AM
Subsim isn't a democracy (or a republic). It's a privately owned forum with specific rules. No one gets lined up and shot here. Some do, however, get invited to leave because they refuse to play nicely.
I may be wrong on this, or you'd be in the brig already. If it turns out I am wrong, the moderators will tell me so, and I'll apologize. If not, I'll expect you to do the same.
Sometimes I wonder if Yubbas body-clock stopped in the 1950s and never started again...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/files/2008/09/286_miller_mccarthyism.jpg
Hottentot
09-23-12, 12:07 PM
No....this one's better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwup4ItqyNQ
HunterICX
I raise with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzbhtCr8HJY).
You can call it what ever you like,, just don't call me late for supper. I maybe touched in the head but I'd never would want to take your big gulps away from you or tell you what kind of light bulb to use, that's if you have any power,, 200 coal fireplants to close within months most in Ohio, West Virginia which I like to call East Ohio, Virginia, Pennsico which will loose at least half of it's power production. I'll get the link in a bit meanwhile do your own home work.
Cwy me a wivew. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3GEmK0MJtI)
soopaman2
09-23-12, 12:08 PM
We love our Yubba. :up:
I expect stuff like this from him. I am not angered, slightly amused perhaps.
You can say what you want about him, he is sincere and has the best intentions.
I'll have him in my army any day!:woot:
No, now it's trolling.
It might have been innocent enough; what made it political is the Obama shirt, coupled with your known hostility toward the current president. Any other shirt might have been harmless. Do you deny that was your intent in the original post?
What hostility, I have made no threats, I'll take my hosilities to the polls like a good american thank you very much, I don't agree with his policies and I don't like him tearring down the very fabric of this nation. I give you guys a good run for your money, and all can do is attack me, call me names, insult me, try to twist my words around, and you know what it doesn't bother me one bit because thats what's going to happen in the debates, Obama is going to do the same thing you are doing.:har::har: , I'm just glad that your head is just to about to spin right off your shoulders...,, You better take a good look what liberalism has done to this country and then you can too try tell me we are better off now than we were 4 years ago. I luv trolling and you bit.
Sometimes I wonder if Yubbas body-clock stopped in the 1950s and never started again...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/files/2008/09/286_miller_mccarthyism.jpg just stuck in the 60's tooo much model building,, good ole testers mmmaaannnnnnn,, see what happens when you speak the truth about progressive liberalism the ugly comes out.
Takeda Shingen
09-23-12, 12:17 PM
Some light reading:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_rules3_faq_item
We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide which callers he airs and a newspaper editor decides which letters he prints and which he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.
Subsim does not want to inhibit your discussions in any way as long as you respect the rules. If you have been asked to tone it down or stop posting in a thread, please refrain from making things worse.
soopaman2
09-23-12, 12:17 PM
What hostility, I have made no threats, I'll take my hosilities to the polls like a good american thank you very much, I don't agree with his policies and I don't like him tearring down the very fabric of this nation. I give you guys a good run for your money, and all can do is attack me, call me names, insult me, try to twist my words around, and you know what it doesn't bother me one bit because thats what's going to happen in the debates, Obama is going to do the same thing you are doing.:har::har: , I'm just glad that your head is just to about to spin right off your shoulders...,, You better take a good look what liberalism has done to this country and then you can too try tell me we are better off now than we were 4 years ago. I luv trolling and you bit.
FDR was a liberal, and a great American president.:hmmm:
Ike was pretty liberal himself. The interstate system alot of us drive on. That project would be construed as some liberal socialism today.
I'll give you something though Yubba.
I miss Bush II.
The last moderate republican this nation has seen.
Chris Christie in 2016. A real republican.
(we were so better off with Rick Perry instead of Mitt, Texans got a sense of balance, and govern with common sense, I say this in hindsight sadly as I critisized him in the past.)
FDR was a liberal, and a great American president.:hmmm:
Ike was pretty liberal himself. The interstate system alot of us drive on. That project would be construed as some liberal socialism today.
I'll give you something though Yubba.
I miss Bush II.
The last moderate republican this nation has seen.
Chris Christie in 2016. A real republican.
(we were so better off with Rick Perry instead of Mitt, Texans got a sense of balance, and govern with common sense, I say this in hindsight sadly as I critisized him in the past.)
What King George and Darth Chenney I thougt we were going to get hope and change, no hope an no change just a whole lot of the same,,.. less than a 100 days Taxagadedon that's where your taxes go up at the first of the year,, and then you get slammed with Obama care maybe not all at the same time,, and the value of your dollar gets less and less and the only ones who seem to get a raise are the ones in government employ.... I got to go,, got a lawn to mow maybe I get to eat this week...
mookiemookie
09-23-12, 01:08 PM
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ice-cream-kid.gif
And we all know who yubba wants in the White House!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Thony/Michelle_zps7f940e7c.jpg
soopaman2
09-23-12, 03:12 PM
And we all know who yubba wants in the White House!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Thony/Michelle_zps7f940e7c.jpg
There is something really oddly hot about her.
My opinion of her aside, I would give her a good toss, then pass her to my friends like the good lefty pinko Stalin worshipping socialist I am.:har: That senator in the 50s warned you about me. Some McCarthy guy. Pinko commies like me...Grrr enraging that we exist!
AVGWarhawk
09-23-12, 03:21 PM
Yubba has a great distaste for the current administration. I can not detect hostility. Frustration yes.
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 04:16 PM
Those BTs must have been paid a lot of treats to wear those hideous sweaters.
soopaman2
09-23-12, 04:27 PM
Yubba has a great distaste for the current administration. I can not detect hostility. Frustration yes.
I am more left leaning than most, and I have some frustration as well. Which is why I gave my "We love our Yubba" post earlier in the thread.
I may not agree with him, but he is a fellow patriot, who only wants us to be the best we can be.
We need folks like me and Yubba in this country. If we only have one view, then we might as well be Saudi Arabia, or North Korea.:salute:
Now finding a balance, thats the real issue. :D
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 04:28 PM
We love our Yubba. :up:
I expect stuff like this from him. I am not angered, slightly amused perhaps.
You can say what you want about him, he is sincere and has the best intentions.
I'll have him in my army any day!:woot:
:hmmm: Could you imagine subman1 and Yubba teaming up?:hmmm:
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 04:32 PM
I am more left leaning than most, and I have some frustration as well. Which is why I gave my "We love our Yubba" post earlier in the thread.
I may not agree with him, but he is a fellow patriot, who only wants us to be the best we can be.
We need folks like me and Yubba in this country. If we only have one view, then we might as well be Saudi Arabia, or North Korea.:salute:
I found the perfect video for you (two):haha::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BpnhBoP90E
I'll let you two decide who is who in the video.:D
soopaman2
09-23-12, 04:36 PM
:hmmm: Could you imagine subman1 and Yubba teaming up?:hmmm:
I like Yubba, despite our differences.
He is full of piss and vinegar. Honest, doesn't beat around the bush, and tells you exactly what he is thinking.
Yubba is a good man.:up:
Despite my liberal curse, disease, whatever.
Edit:Niki, I do not see us frolicking in a field together. Me and you on the other hand, we can talk about football...:yep::haha::har:
:har::har::har:Then every person that doesn't believe, that this was a terrorist attack that killed our ambassador, and tells you that it was something else, and the arab spring is a great thing,, should be committed. I even knew it was a terrorist attack and the muslim brotherhood comeing to power was a bad thing , I'm kooo kooo for cocoa puffs is all that you got on me.:har::har::har:
I like Yubba, despite our differences.
He is full of piss and vinegar. Honest, doesn't beat around the bush, and tells you exactly what he is thinking.
Yubba is a good man.:up:
Despite my liberal curse, disease, whatever.
Edit:Niki, I do not see us frolicking in a field together. Me and you on the other hand, we can talk about football...:yep::haha::har:Damn you're going to make me cry...
AVGWarhawk
09-23-12, 04:52 PM
:har::har::har:Then every person that doesn't believe, that this was a terrorist attack that killed our ambassador, and tells you that it was something else, and the arab spring is a great thing,, should be committed. I even knew it was a terrorist attack and the muslim brotherhood comeing to power was a bad thing , I'm kooo kooo for cocoa puffs is all that you got on me.:har::har::har:
Yes Yubba, under normal circumstances concerning protests, rocket launchers are not among the items often found. You know, like signs and t-shirts stating their case. :up:
kraznyi_oktjabr
09-23-12, 05:01 PM
I don't really care who is in helm in D.C. as long as that clown doesn't drag Finland into next conflict. What I would like to comment however is that your posting style doesn't do any good to GOP and I think it doesn't persuade people pondering between DNC and GOP to vote GOP. I would go as far as recommend you to put text below to your signature. :03:
"Yubba - Making Republicans look nutjobs since September 2009"
Yes Yubba, under normal circumstances concerning protests, rocket launchers are not among the items often found. You know, like signs and t-shirts stating their case. :up:
That's what I thought,,, say is that a rocket launcher in your pocket or are you just happy to see me....,,,,,...Nope didn't happen your eyes must decieve you..
I don't really care who is in helm in D.C. as long as that clown doesn't drag Finland into next conflict. What I would like to comment however is that your posting style doesn't do any good to GOP and I think it doesn't persuade people pondering between DNC and GOP to vote GOP. I would go as far as recommend you to put text below to your signature. :03:
"Yubba - Making Republicans look nutjobs since September 2009" I'm a independant,, I make independants look bad,,, since 2009 so your state is false.. I'm not a Ron Paul nutjob,,, I don't want to split the vote and all you third party folk better vote for Mittens, so the republicans are safe because I hate them just as much,,, they are the ones that gave us Obama...and they will be the ones to get rid of him.
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 05:26 PM
I don't really care who is in helm in D.C. as long as that clown doesn't drag Finland into next conflict.
Not even for booze? How about to join the next conflict, for Finland's help; all the booze you can drink and all the ammo you can shoot at the bad buys for your help?
Could you imagine how big that booze budget would be?:haha:
mookiemookie
09-23-12, 05:27 PM
I'm a independant.
:rotfl2:
soopaman2
09-23-12, 05:35 PM
Yes AVGWarhawk (awesome plane sir)
It was a terrorist attack. It happened on 9-11, enough said.
But I been to enough funerals. One of those tombstones had the same last name as mine on them.
Time for us to concentrate on ourselves for awhile.
We cannot fix someone else if our own house is broken.
Leave them to their own devices, let them kill each other, kinda like we do to the blacks in our own country.
Oh noooos, soops is a rascist. Well it is what it is. I live the next town over from an inner city craphole, so I know what I speak on. No one is nearly as concerned for them, and what they do, as what some filthy muslim says or does 8000 miles away.
I am an American. And I love what we are. Good or bad. Agree or disagree.
I like Ron Paul too Yubba. Though you are automatically a looney toon for saying so in this country, common sense is typically lost on those who do not strive to educate themselves, which is the main reason we are in trouble as a country.
AVGWarhawk
09-23-12, 05:41 PM
Herman Cain! :D
Yubba...you are on to somthing
:rotfl2:
Herman Cain! :D
Maybe next go around, the progressive liberal media, beat him up pretty good, he should have got VP but the media would have made it into a racist thing. Cain and Rubio has a could ring to it. I can't wait to see the media jump ship. Thats what you get for being a lap dog,,, it will be along time before I trust the media again...ooooh it's the videos fault... We were attacked and it's still going on and they still can't get the story right..another mental dissorder it's denial I thought it was something else,, Like anal glacoma ,,, can't see my @$$ admitting to that.
I was going to put this in, funny picture thread but someone would blow a head gasket,..., as it was meant to be,,, Looks like someone jumped ship,,.. see the puppy isn't happy either,, animals can tell just like that buck in texas was tearing up these peoples obama signhttp://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ofaxxxx_obama_dog_sweater-620x620.jpg (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/here-are-the-14-most-absurd-things-for-sale-on-the-obama-website/ofaxxxx_obama_dog_sweater/)
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6sxml5YhX1qbne2q.jpg
I think we should cover the progessives fear of mans freedom to govern himself,, I guess this can be called {control freakiness syndrome} the excessive need to be in ones business and the excessive need to control every thing people do....like the need to have drones, ban large sodas and tell you what kind of light bulb to use, I wonder how many trees will fall this winter so people can heat their homes when they start shutting down all those power plants.. I think we have done pretty good for the last couple of hundred years right up to about 2006,...we started to go down hill.
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 07:42 PM
How do fleabaggers work into the equation?
http://media.katu.com/images/111016-occupy-portland-camp.jpg
AVGWarhawk
09-23-12, 07:50 PM
Maybe next go around, the progressive liberal media, beat him up pretty good, he should have got VP but the media would have made it into a racist thing. Cain and Rubio has a could ring to it. I can't wait to see the media jump ship. Thats what you get for being a lap dog,,, it will be along time before I trust the media again...ooooh it's the videos fault... We were attacked and it's still going on and they still can't get the story right..another mental dissorder it's denial I thought it was something else,, Like anal glacoma ,,, can't see my @$$ admitting to that.
Cain was systematically destroyed. Shame really. It would have been fun to watch!
AVGWarhawk
09-23-12, 07:51 PM
How do fleabaggers work into the equation?
http://media.katu.com/images/111016-occupy-portland-camp.jpg
These guys are an integral part in keeping camping supply companies open. That's where it ends.
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 08:23 PM
I am more left leaning than most, and I have some frustration as well.
And I'm more right-leaning than you might imagine. I don't like Obama either, but I have yet to see anyone offer an alternative that isn't worse. I won't vote for him, or for Romney.
My problem with Yubba isn't what he believes. It's that he seems to like playing the clown, and has yet to have a real discussion here, or offer anything useful. "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."
I was going to put this in, funny picture thread but someone would blow a head gasket
Not at all. My head is perfectly calm. My complaint was that you jumped into a thread with something totally irrelevant, for no apparent purpose other than to stir the pot. You've now admitted to intentionally trolling. That is definitely not allowed here.
Things completely go out the window,,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwEvysDpNm0&feature=related,,And no Steve this is not directed at you, you just happened to post ahead of me,, but it funny how things work out.. but speaking ones opinion, is not trolling and yes I like to clown around and yet no one can debate me with out attacking me and calling me names or belittle-ing me, I don't deal with hypocrits, which can't bring merrits of their cause.
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 08:31 PM
Do you have anything to do besides play games?
Yup saving a country, how about you.???
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 08:57 PM
And no Steve this is not directed at you, you just happened to post ahead of me,, but it funny how things work out..
Yes it is funny, because given the nature of our current conversation it looks like it was aimed directly at me. Your "ooh it's political" crack in your first post certainly was.
but speaking ones opinion, is not trolling
No, it isn't, but you don't just speak an opinion, you couch it in terms intentionally designed to provoke people, and that is trolling.
I luv trolling and you bit
and yes I like to clown around and yet no one can debate me with out attacking me and calling me names or belittle-ing me,
No one can debate you at all, because you don't debate or discuss anything. You toss out statements and then don't discuss them. You make claims but then you don't support them, and if someone disagrees you dismiss them as Liberals, which I'm certainly not. People don't belittle you because of your beliefs, but because of the way you act.
As I said, my difference isn't with what you believe or what you say, but how you go about it. Some of us would be glad to debate you if you ever actually said something.
Sailor Steve
09-23-12, 08:59 PM
Yup saving a country, how about you.???
Do you really think you're saving anything by behaving the way you do here? You're making your own cause look foolish.
Just had the Bill Cunningham radio show come on, perfect time-ing the question for this sunday is what is more important for the media to be reporting on,,, the terrorist attacks, and what is going in the middle east, or Mitts comments 4 months ago about about the 47 percent...??? By the sound it's Mitts comments... go figure.. I said I like to clown around I'm a comedian and I go for the laughs and then again I'm dead serious, the only foolish things, are the ones that are never done, that's what freedom is all about, I'm free to do what I want, when I want, where I want and that's what freedom is all about and if I want to make a fool out of myself then I will, until freedom hateing people take that right away and that doesn't seem that far away,...and the way I act I'm posting mostly misspelled words here, and some of you guys need to get a scence of humor.
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 10:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwEvy...eature=related,
Gomer committed a 9-11 and he's still alive? He's the worst terrorist ever!:haha:
nikimcbee
09-23-12, 10:51 PM
These guys are an integral part in keeping camping supply companies open. That's where it ends.
Not here (in Ore-gone). The flea baggers wanted all of their supplies donated. Hurray for local business.
Tribesman
09-24-12, 01:38 AM
no one can debate me with out attacking me and calling me names or belittle-ing me
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
It is partly true though, no one can debate with you as you are incapable.
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
It is partly true though, no one can debate with you as you are incapable. oh contraire,, I got one for you I asked it a couple of times and no one wants to tackle it, must be they are chicken,,,So tell me the best way that you can what is the purpose of DE-value-ing, our currency, that's money if you don't what currency means..Com on Tribes lets see what you got. And where have you been, this thread is right down your dissorder, what the straight jacket alittle tighter than usual...
Takeda Shingen
09-24-12, 09:08 AM
oh contraire,, I got one for you I asked it a couple of times and no one wants to tackle it, must be they are chicken,,,So tell me the best way that you can what is the purpose of DE-value-ing, our currency, that's money if you don't what currency means..Com on Tribes lets see what you got. And where have you been, this thread is right down your dissorder, what the straight jacket alittle tighter than usual...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_war#2000_to_2008
This enhanced their ability to pursue export led growth strategies while at the same time building up foreign reserves so they would be better protected against further crises.
This is why nations devalue currency. It is a very aggressive move. I'm actually glad to see some finally see some protectionism after the disasterous venture into the global economy. Give China a little of her own medicine.
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 10:18 AM
the Fed believes that manipulation of interest rates and the value of the dollar can reduce unemployment rates.
There is more to the article than quoted above concerning devaluation of the dollar.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/02/06/the-federal-reserves-explicit-goal-devalue-the-dollar-33/
Takeda Shingen
09-24-12, 10:27 AM
Unfortunately, we're just never going to return to the gold standard by virtue that no other nation uses it. Again, the horrible price of globalism.
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 10:33 AM
One wonders why then the blitz to purchase gold as we have witnessed the past few years. :hmmm:
mookiemookie
09-24-12, 10:35 AM
People see it as a store of value. Unfortunately, gold is just a hunk of metal that has value because we say it does. If the fit hits the shan, all of your gold coins and bars (if you even have them...most gold investors don't even have physical gold) aren't going to mean anything when food, water and ammunition becomes the currency of the day.
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 10:37 AM
We return to the days of barter! A pair of shoes for a wagon of watermellon!
Takeda Shingen
09-24-12, 10:41 AM
People see it as a store of value. Unfortunately, gold is just a hunk of metal that has value because we say it does. If the fit hits the shan, all of your gold coins and bars (if you even have them...most gold investors don't even have physical gold) aren't going to mean anything when food, water and ammunition becomes the currency of the day.
That's just it. A lot of these gold sellers prey upon the survivalist community. And, as you said, in the event of a total societal breakdown precious metals will be utterly worthless. My belief is that water would become the new currency standard.
Either that, or bottle caps.
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 10:44 AM
bottle caps.
:haha: :up:
Tribesman
09-24-12, 10:44 AM
oh contraire,, I got one for you I asked it a couple of times and no one wants to tackle it, must be they are chicken,,,So tell me the best way that you can what is the purpose of DE-value-ing, our currency, that's money if you don't what currency means..Com on Tribes lets see what you got. And where have you been, this thread is right down your dissorder, what the straight jacket alittle tighter than usual...
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
you plonker.
Heres some for ya bubba. Why have you had long running problems over currency values with china.
How does a trade balance work.
Why is the Americn consumer to blame for allowing China to screw the dollar
errrrr what is the purpose of de-valueing currencies:doh:
One wonders why then the blitz to purchase gold as we have witnessed the past few years
Sensible money is off loading the gold since idiots have panic bought it to record prices
mookiemookie
09-24-12, 10:56 AM
We return to the days of barter! A pair of shoes for a wagon of watermellon!
That's the problem with a barter system. I have a cow. I want to buy a watermelon. I need to first find A) someone with watermelons and hope that B) that someone has need for a cow. And then I hope my cow is as good of a cow as the other guy's cow, or I don't get any watermelons.
Much easier to use a fungible medium of exchange like currency.
And there's my tangent for the day.
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 11:22 AM
That's the problem with a barter system. I have a cow. I want to buy a watermelon. I need to first find A) someone with watermelons and hope that B) that someone has need for a cow. And then I hope my cow is as good of a cow as the other guy's cow, or I don't get any watermelons.
Much easier to use a fungible medium of exchange like currency.
And there's my tangent for the day.
Screw it...take it by force! And there we have it...a species constantly at war! The cycle will never stop!
A whole cow for a watermelon? Someone got Rooked...
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 11:31 AM
A whole cow for a watermelon? Someone got Rooked...
Wagon load August! Wagon load! :D
Hottentot
09-24-12, 11:34 AM
Meh, it's a decent trade. The stupid cow does nothing but sit around, eat and drink. The bovine, I mean. But I want the wagon too.
Tribesman
09-24-12, 11:36 AM
The cycle will never stop!
It will when someone takes the wheels to trade for some chickens to swap for some melons to trade for a cow so they can have milk in the coffee.
Meh, it's a decent trade. The stupid cow does nothing but sit around, eat and drink. The bovine, I mean. But I want the wagon too.
I have some magic beans...
Hottentot
09-24-12, 11:54 AM
I have some magic beans...
And intriguing offer. I'm already one-third of the way to a Three Bean Salad, so if you have two, I might trade them for a bridge I just bought recently. :hmmm:
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 12:43 PM
I have some magic beans...
Do these beans produce magic flatulence? :hmmm:
Do these beans produce magic flatulence? :hmmm:
Yes, it smells like Froot Loops. :yep:
soopaman2
09-24-12, 02:59 PM
Do these beans cure this Progressive Liberalism Disease? (PLD) I been spreading it around, a plague bearer, I am! Just call me typhoid Mary.
And when can we expect FDA Approval?:D
Besides a fruit loop fart would be much more easy on my wife when I "dutch oven" her.
Though not as amusing to me. :03:
AVGWarhawk
09-24-12, 03:37 PM
Do these beans cure this Progressive Liberalism Disease?
No, these beans grow dingle berries.
soopaman2
09-24-12, 04:12 PM
No, these beans grow dingle berries.
Same thing :O:
Penguin
09-25-12, 09:03 AM
Yub-bro is rite tottally: Me on same site with him.
We need to diss de damn order - skrew da new world order! Or r we we talkin which is da order 2 diss? Shall we diss bama first or tha otha clownz?
Sailor Steve
09-25-12, 09:56 AM
^ ^ ^
I see you evel plan! We don't need no subversives tryin to undermine god's chosen country! Go back home, Euro-weenie spy-guy!
Yub-bro is rite tottally: Me on same site with him.
We need to diss de damn order - skrew da new world order! Or r we we talkin which is da order 2 diss? Shall we diss bama first or tha otha clownz?
Welcome , you're right skrew da new world order, you have made me all misty eyed,, Did you hear about this high school band up in Pennsylvaina celebrate-ing the Russian revolution with military uniforms and with hammer and sickle at half time at a football game. they said it was right out of the twighlight zone I'll see if I can find a link, Progressive liberalism aka communism is a sickness.,, there is no governmental paradise just over the hill for the hill is never ending.. http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/high-school-band-celebrates-russian-revolution.html feel free to get a barf bag,,, If I had kids in that school guess what they wouldn't be going there,,any thing that comemorates the killing of millions is just sick.... No one has it as good,, as a free nation like the U.S. or ever will...China has to go to war with Japan before their own people turn on that government I guess that's what they call nationalism, you folks around the world don't fall for this crap war is not the answer,,,. hold your leaders accountable.
Takeda Shingen
09-25-12, 12:06 PM
Welcome , you're right skrew da new world order, you have made me all misty eyed,, Did you hear about this high school band up in Pennsylvaina celebrate-ing the Russian revolution with military uniforms and with hammer and sicle at half time at a football game. they said it was right out of the twighlight zone I'll see if I can find a link, Progressive liberalism aka communism is a sickness. http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/high-school-band-celebrates-russian-revolution.html feel free to get a barf bag,,, If I had kids in that school guess what they wouldn't be going there,,any thing that comemorates the killing of millions is just sick.... No one has it as good,, as a free nation like the U.S. or ever will...China has to go to war with Japan before their own people turn on that government I guess that's what they call nationalism, you folks around the world don't fall for this crap war is not the answer,,,. hold your leaders accountable.
What would you say about a website that contains Third Reich military symbols and music while playing games that center around sinking Allied warships?
mookiemookie
09-25-12, 12:20 PM
I caught myself humming a few bars of "Die Fahne Hoch" the other day before I realized what I was doing. Dang SH3 gramophone.
Takeda Shingen
09-25-12, 12:21 PM
Then you are glorifying Hitler's regime. You monster.
What would you say about a website that contains Third Reich military symbols and music while playing games that center around sinking Allied warships? I play sh3 and fly the FW 190 in IL2 at hyperlobby but of course I shower afterwards,,, then I play sh4 and get a good nights sleep,,,I love this sight hate to see it lost to progressive liberalism,,, we start loose-ing our first amendment rights and have more government control of the internet, you bet this site will be history. Can't have people learning how to fly and learn how to use military equipment just floating around out there with international connections think about it...be careful what you wish for..
Takeda Shingen
09-25-12, 12:55 PM
I play sh3 and fly the FW 190 in IL2 at hyperlobby but of course I shower afterwards,,, then I play sh4 and get a good nights sleep,,,I love this sight hate to see it lost to progressive liberalism,,, we start loose-ing our first amendment rights and have more government control of the internet, you bet this site will be history. Can't have people learning how to fly and learn how to use military equipment just floating around out there with international connections think about it...be careful what you wish for..
I'll ask again: What do you think of the use of Third Reich military symbols by people on this website, and by the playing of games where the object is to kill Allied troops and sailors? Are they promoting Hitler's Nazi state or are they observing a historical occurence?
You were just complaining that no one ever 'debates you straight up'. Well, you have me doing just that, but you constantly change the subject. You provided no answer to my post regarding currency devaluation, and you seem intent on doing the same here.
Penguin
09-25-12, 01:36 PM
I caught myself humming a few bars of "Die Fahne Hoch" the other day before I realized what I was doing.
It's a catchy tune. The same thing happened to me once while watching Hart's War - during a flight from the US...:haha::oops:
I can recommend to check out Milva's version though, great voice, with Brecht's version of the lyrics sung in Italian.
@Tak: good luck!
It's a catchy tune. The same thing happened to me once while watching Hart's War - during a flight from the US...:haha::oops:
It is, alas, rather catchy...
I keep getting Westerwald stuck in my head, that and Erika. Good walking music. I also get various Soviet songs stuck in my head, which is awkward when I work alongside several Eastern Europeans, Polish and the like. Not exactly the right songs to hum... :doh:
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.