What is the world coming to... (Attack on US Embassy)

[1480]

I am filled with both sorrow and outrage. An Ambassador of the US, two Marines and one staff member were murdered yesterday. The hired security from Libya apparently led the those people to another building, which they assured them was "safe." Then turn around and lead the followers of the religion of peace, to the building where they storm in and murder all four.

Why did we not have Marines there, which are normally assigned to security for our embassies?

The best the empty chair can do is offer condolences and promise justice....

1979 deja vu all over again.

God watch over our people in that hell known as North Africa.

[Ducimus]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world/africa/libya-us-ambassador-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[nikimcbee]

My night shift partner just got back from Egypt (He's Egyptian). He said that place is an absolute circus.:dead: I want to talk to him more about it, but he can get pretty passionate about this stuff.

OOPs, didn't know about Libya, I thought you were talking about Egypt.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/09/11/cairo-us-embassy-protesters-prophet-mohammad/70000126/1#.UE-AdkbCz8A

[Oberon]

It's hardly surprising, I think everyone knew this sort of thing would happen after the Arab Springs. The young ideologues that began the uprising are finding themselves sidelined by fanaticism and there is no force that can keep order in Libya any more. It is, in a way, a bit like Iraq and Afghanistan after the Saddam and Taliban governments had been toppled. There's a massive vacuum which is struggling to be filled and in the meantime it's open season for every nutjob that has a grudge against someone or something.

[Takeda Shingen]

This should not have come as a surprise to anyone. Our foreign policy in the Middle East has only served to enpower our enemies through 'spreading democracy' and 'nation building'. After all, we just helped do these things in both Libya and Egypt. And what do they do? They turn and immediately attack us. Shocking.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the US also spread billions in Egypt alone. :hmmm:

One-third of ALL
US AID goes to
Israel and Egypt.

These 2 countries
receive one-third of
the total aid,
the majority of which
pays for armaments.
Yet, neither is a "developing" country





http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

[Sailor Steve]

What is the world coming to? Nothing it hasn't been for thousands of years. Murdering ambassadors is a time-honored tradition. Not that I approve or agree with it. I hold with the school that says ambassadors are sacrosanct. Still, it's not a surprise at all.

[Kaye T. Bai]

Rest in peace to the Ambassador, the FSO, and those two Marine MSGs. It's a disgusting shame what happened.

[AVGWarhawk]

This action constitutes a act of war. The Embassy is seen and held as American soil.

[Takeda Shingen]

This action constitutes a act of war. The Embassy is seen and held as American soil.

And therein lies the problem. War against whom? And after the war, what then? We can win wars. We can't win peace.

[AVGWarhawk]

And therein lies the problem. War against whom? And after the war, what then? We can win wars. We can't win peace.

I was pointing out the 'act' itself. Nothing will become of it.

[Bubblehead1980]

More ignorance from the buttcrack of the world.

[Takeda Shingen]

I was pointing out the 'act' itself. Nothing will become of it.

I disagree about that. I think something will become of it. Political forces within the country are already beating the drums of war. Externally, Netanyahu is attempting to utilize the tragedy to pull the US into open war with Iran. I don't like being the pessimist, but this is going to be bad.

[Tribesman]

The Embassy is seen and held as American soil.

No it doesn't, and anyway the embassy is in the capital not in Benghazi.

I believe the US also spread billions in Egypt alone.
Those figures are from the time of the dictator that recently got thrown out of office, I don't think those figures will buy you much goodwill credit with the people who wanted him out of office, in fact I think the military aid to the military dictatorship would be rather harmful to your local image.

Rest in peace to the Ambassador, the FSO, and those two Marine MSGs. It's a disgusting shame what happened.

:yep:
What is the world coming to? Nothing it hasn't been for thousands of years. Murdering ambassadors is a time-honored tradition. Not that I approve or agree with it. I hold with the school that says ambassadors are sacrosanct. Still, it's not a surprise at all.
:yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

@Tribesman

You are correct on the misconception that the Embassy is US soil. :up:

However,

Under the concept of sovereign territory, actions taken against an ambassador or other diplomat or actions taken against the embassy itself either directly or indirectly, can be viewed as actions taken against the country that the ambassador, diplomat or embassy represent.

[AVGWarhawk]

I disagree about that. I think something will become of it. Political forces within the country are already beating the drums of war. Externally, Netanyahu is attempting to utilize the tragedy to pull the US into open war with Iran. I don't like being the pessimist, but this is going to be bad.

I think the current administration will want to avoid a war during the campaigning season.

[Tribesman]

However,.........

Thats why S.S. got a nod AVG....... I hold with the school that says ambassadors are sacrosanct.
A problem of course does arise when it comes to criminal scum like these murderers in Libya, in that they are criminals and don't really hold with laws or the delicacies of diplomacy.

[AVGWarhawk]

What I had posted also encompassed the embassy itself. You are correct that all of it thrown out the window concerning thugs. Word is this was coordinated and a terrorist attack. Not simply protesters.

[Takeda Shingen]

I think the current administration will want to avoid a war during the campaigning season.

The current administration will continue the track on which the nation is. We will continue to pursue democracy across the Middle East and reap the disatsterous conaequences. The potentally new administration will pursue open war with Iran, Libya and Egypt, which will result in the same. We are Rome, and the year is 378 AD.

[AVGWarhawk]

The current administration will continue the track on which the nation is. We will continue to pursue democracy across the Middle East and reap the disatsterous conaequences. The potentally new administration will pursue open war with Iran, Libya and Egypt, which will result in the same. We are Rome, and the year is 378 AD.


We are a country that creates an economy through war. It is cleverly sold as "spreading Democracy" to the world.

[Kloef]

Condolances to all victims of this attack by savages.

Meanwhile we (Nato etc.) keep fighting their war for freedom...and our oil:hmmm:

[Penguin]

People use US websites to spread their view and coordinate their attacks, because a guy who lives in America, several thousand miles away, put a vid on one of these very same sites. So they desecrate the US flag, a symbol important to many Americans, to protest the attack on their symbols and kill a man who lived nowadays because of a man who lived centuries ago.

Nothing new to see, only people who live with their head in their ass.

[yubba]

and it was said that his body was dragged through the streets,.. What you, guys live under a rock, who said the war on terror was over, this is what you get when you call a rattlesnake a worm. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/graphic-photos-allegedly-show-attempt-to-rescue-u-s-ambassador-content-warning/

[Dowly]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=198397

[Penguin]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=198397

edit: Perkele! :)

[Dowly]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=198397

edit: Perkele! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc

[Penguin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5rwx9ZbFVU

[Dowly]

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

[yubba]

didn't read the fine print,,,if you want you can take this thread down I got to many as it is I don't want to steal any bodies thunder.

[AVGWarhawk]

Word on the street Yubba this was a coordinated terrorist attact, et al 9/11. The picture does not really display if they were attempting to save or parading the ambassador. We honestly need to see what else develops.

[yubba]

this is what you get, for calling a rattlesnake a worm...,http://www.theblaze.com/stories/graphic-photos-allegedly-show-attempt-to-rescue-u-s-ambassador-content-warning/ I didn't mean to thread over you,, I didn't see anything that I thought related to the attacks. sorry..

[TLAM Strike]

In case you had not seen it here are some of the pictures of the flag of Al Qaeda flying over the US Embassy in Egypt. :-?

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4758/09e915571e4143eca40bac9.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8251/blackflagraisedincairoo.jpg

[Platapus]

There is still much we don't know about this attack. :yep:

[eddie]

If it was a attack by terrorists, then I would think that a large number of drones will be buzzing around like mad hornets over eastern Libya and Yemen.

[yubba]

Looks paraded to me http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/gunfire-then-missing-ambassador-officials-describe-chaotic-scene-at-benghazi/ story no one saw the body for 12 hours till it was returned at the airport.

[Skybird]

This should not have come as a surprise to anyone. Our foreign policy in the Middle East has only served to enpower our enemies through 'spreading democracy' and 'nation building'. After all, we just helped do these things in both Libya and Egypt. And what do they do? They turn and immediately attack us. Shocking.
^ :up:

Obama, "Cairo speech" anyone? :haha:

[Stealhead]

That photo tells you nothing.

Looks to me like the guy is trying to carry the body to a safe place.If you where parading a body you'd have it tied to a rope and be dragging it around
hitting it with sticks.Looks to me from that crappy shot that the guy is trying to take the body away from the area to prevent such things form happening.
This whole thing is what AQ wants they want it to appear that the protectors where the killers when really it had nothing to do with them beyond AQ using the
confusion as a chance to strike.Also this man was very well liked by most Libyans they realize that he helped free their nation they would not want to kill him.

[Ducimus]

That photo tells you nothing.

Is the guy dead? Has he been hurt and is the guy carrying him?What is going?
You cant tell.

Paraded or not, Yubba's the type who draws a conclusion first. Then goes about finding the evidence to support his conclusion.

[Dowly]

Dunno, looks dead to me.

*Graphic*
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/us-AMBASSADor-LIBYA-e1347455467920.jpg
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/files/2012/09/libyan-us-ambassador.jpg

[Kaye T. Bai]

Dunno, looks dead to me.

In the first one, he looks like he might still be alive. Second photo, he looks very dead.

I think I'm going to lose my lunch. :huh:

[Takeda Shingen]

Dunno, looks dead to me.

*Graphic*
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/us-AMBASSADor-LIBYA-e1347455467920.jpg
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/files/2012/09/libyan-us-ambassador.jpg

Just a friendly reminder that this is how to post such content. I understand that these are historical events, but please refrain from posting the images directly. Post the link with a warning for graphic images as Dowly has done here. This way we can have the images for discussion purposes and yet preserve the rights of the members as to whether they want to see the image or not.

[yubba]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/gunfire-then-missing-ambassador-officials-describe-chaotic-scene-at-benghazi/ some say they didn't see the body for 12 hrs till it showed up at the airport, I guess it was some night out on the town for a dead guy,,,, paarrr rrraidded.

[yubba]

Paraded or not, Yubba's the type who draws a conclusion first. Then goes about finding the evidence to support his conclusion. no my freind it was after hours of reading stories and listening to the news, then I came to a conclusion, paaarrr raiddded. so what was a dead body doing for 12 hours before it showed up at the airport..??????

[eddie]

No one on the ground knows for sure where the body was, but you do? Of course this will be the President's fault too I suppose. If it is, then its fair to say it was Bush's fault for 9/11 in the first place!!

[Stealhead]

@Ducimas yeah sometimes I forget that I am in the minority of Floridians that actually thinks.

@Dowly I meant to say that he looked to be dead I just did not type it that way.

@eddie they have the body.

Anyway those photos do not seem to imply anything more than that they show a clearly deceased Ambassador Stevens.

According to the Washington Post contact with Stevens was lost from around 10PM til around dawn the next day that is roughly 5 to 6 hours not 12 hours nice math Faux. Actually the Faux article makes no mention of a 12 hour time span nor itself implies that Stevens was paraded around so that is coming straight out a' Yubbaville.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/news-agencies-us-ambassador-to-libya-killed-in-attack-outside-consulate/2012/09/12/665de5fc-fcc4-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html

[eddie]

I understand what you are saying Stealhead, recently read the same thing. I just don't understand how yubba can say with any certainty how or what happened to the body. They mentioned they tried to help him at the hospital, nothing I read has said how long he was there.

Can't worry so much about what happened to the body, time to figure out how to make sure this doesn't happen again, and get those responsible for this tragic event.

I have one question though, this event happened at our consulate, not the embassy. The Embassy is in Tripoli. Are consulates afforded the same kind of protection as an embassy, IE with Marines guarding it?

[August]

I think it's too early to draw any conclusions. I figure accusations and recriminations at this point serve only the al quada crazies who committed this outrage.

[19Herr_Rapp86]

Yes. A consulate is like a branch of the embassy. Still considered sovereign US territory, hence a Marine guard.

EDIT: Excuse me. Improper terminology there. Subordinate is the proper term. Not a branch. The consul is subordinate to the embassy. They assist with things like visa's, travel, relations with the host nation and the people of the representing nation, etc. My apology for the error. But yes, it is still afforded a "guard". I quotation the word guard, because, though Marines are present, it's more of a formality than anything, most of the time, they stand their post in dress blues or "deltas" which is the dress blue trousers, with a long sleeve khaki shirt, khaki tie, white dress cover, sidearm, and white gloves.

EDIT II: I was also incorrect about sovereignty. A consulate IS NOT considered sovereign territory of the representative nation according to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. There is a posted guard but again, a formality. Consulates are not afforded the diplomatic immunity that Ambassadors receive. Though in this particular case, it was the Ambassador, Mr. Stevens, not the Consul. I apologize for the inaccuracies. Had to dig up my old 8156 MSF handbook. Lol.

[1480]

Out of experience, I would say there is more then an 80% that he was hung to death. Looking at the lips is #1 sign other then finding him hanging from the rafters. If I could have seen the tongue, it would be 100%. If you look at the dragging photo a ligature mark is apparent just below the jaw. His abdomen indicate hypostasis, like he had been in a sitting position leaning forward. When its black in color he is in the last stage of rigor mortis. Which could account for his position in being dragged. Eyes have always been open on any asphyxiation case I have been involved in.

The second photo was taken later. If you look at the left arm/hand and in particular the hand shows hypostasis which is consistent with the position of the arm as he was being dragged. The forearm is not bruised but shows hypostasis. The face shows classic patterns of asphyxiation.

My experienced opinion, if we have a forensic pathologist, he would give you the final word.

[1480]

And do not get me going about rolling a body in full rigor....you will never order a half grecian chicken ever again....:har:

[nikimcbee]

So what should we do about this?


Nothing, they are a peaceful democracy.
Cut off their funds.
Bomb them (Clinton-style)
Bomb them (Reagan-style)
Give'em the Bush treatment
sign them up for healthcare, send them an unemployment check, and register them to vote.
Too early to jump to conclusions.
Bonus question, what about Egypt?

[1480]

So what should we do about this?


Nothing, they are a peaceful democracy.
Cut off their funds.
Bomb them (Clinton-style)
Bomb them (Reagan-style)
Give'em the Bush treatment
sign them up for healthcare, send them an unemployment check, and register them to vote.
Too early to jump to conclusions.

Bonus question, what about Egypt?

Can we drill for oil through a foot of glass?

[gimpy117]

the ambassador was big on eve online, there's been a lot of tributes to him on there

[1480]

How are your broncos doing?


Will my huskies be playing them this season?

[nikimcbee]

Can we drill for oil through a foot of glass?

I think Rahm would let you drill on you days off. If you strike it big, you could buy your own football team.:hmmm::up:

[Skybird]

Great show they are giving again. Too bad for the killed Americans, maybe they just shouldn't have gone there in the first.

Wetsern press seems to selfmutlate itself already again over thzat movie. It saeems to be a cheap production and done in bad technical craftsmanwork. Haven'T seen it, will not care to watch it, only know about it what was written about it, for example here:

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article109179232/Anti-Islam-Film-kaum-ertraegliche-Billigproduktion.html

what strikes me is that several historical truths


Der Prophet wird in dem Film als Mann beschrieben, der sich nach Bedarf Frauen holt und Einwände mit fadenscheinigen Argumenten und Verweisen wegwischt.

In einer Szene plant er mit seinen Männern einen Überfall, bei dem alle Männer getötet, alle Frauen gefangen genommen und alle Häuser geplündert werden. Auf die Nachfrage eines Anhängers, was sie denn mit Kindern machen sollten ("Du weißt ja, einige von uns bevorzugen Kinder***8230;"), sagt der Mohammed-Darsteller, sie könnten mit ihnen machen was sie wollen

Mohammed war ein sexgieriger Mörder, der Koran ein künstliches Konstrukt aus Thora und Neuem Testament, der Islam eine verkommene Religion.

Eine alte Frau, die einem Mohammed-Gefährten gegenüber die Brutalität und den Verkauf von Kindern als Sklaven anprangert, wird von zwei Kamelen in Stücke gerissen


already get listed by them in a way as if it were untrue, or were distorted, or were forbidden to be spoken about in order to allow Islam to continue telling lies about a glorified, white-washed Muhammad, and Islam. But the four points quoted by me only represent the fact that Muihammad did indeed intimidate critics and even called for their assassination, the second point reminds of the strike against the third Jewish tribe at Medina where indeed all caught men and boys were murdered and all girls and women handed over to his followers as sexual prey (and since Muhammad counts almost 70 assaults and battles under his belt, who knows what was done in other, less prominent events as well), and the third point refers to the Quran being a kitschig construction basing on Christian lithurgy and Thora, which is true by assessment of most linguistical and theological research done on the matter (and yes, by prose it is so klitschig that I hgave up somwhere in the last third of it, I could not stand it any longer, every novel by Karl May and every Jerry Cotton novel bought at the central station is higher literature than this linguistic "Machwerk"). The old woman quoted, criticising the selling of children into slavery, again is in conformity with the historical reality. It were the Muhammeddans for sure who ran great military campaigns in Northern Africa to make prisoners and offer them to a Europe and an America who at that time had left slavery long since behind after the slavery of the Europe ancient time (Rome etc). The cotton landlords accepted that offer, and so slavery found its way into the US. Big scale commercial Slave trade and slave wars were a practiced habit in the Muslim world since centuries earlier already. Modern slaves still are to be found in certain Muslim countries, and I do not mean employees in very weak working contracts, I mean SLAVESby the meaning of the very word. Mostly sex slaves.

Other details seem to be owed to the motivation of the filmmmakers to spill more oil into the fire by using especially distasteful claims whose historical authenticity are unverifiable and thus must be rated as fiction. I learned that Muhammad was an orphant. Whether his parents were dead or just left him behind, I do not know. The fiulm is said to say he was abandoned by his parents, and was as a child sexually abused. What I learned from the books is that his first wife was a rich widow who was twice as old as he was, and they had four daughters, of which two died, if I recall it correctly. He must have been around twenty by then. I also learned by the history books that he was an orphant raised by his uncle and working for him as a caravan leader who robbed rivalling caravans by oppoortunity. He had already slain men murdered members of other caravans and sacked their goods before he ever appeared for the first time as a kahin. It remained to be a habit of him for all rest of his life. Yes - he was a murderer and a desert bandit for sure.

All in all the hysteria is constructed as usual, and is about Islam being told some bitter truths about itself and its gangster of a founder. that the media play ball in this once again, as it appears to be, and bow to the usual history-forging poratcice of Islam to lie about the unpleasant aspects of its founder, is disappointing, but not really surprising.

All foreigners should leave their damn dark countries, so that they can have a wonderful rampage with themselves. mStop all funding, and build big, high walls around their countries, with no gatres and no windows. I hope as many hysterical heads pop open in anger and outrage as possible. Every head popping open is a microscopically small improvement for the general condition that mankind is in. So, dear street yellers and ecstatic shouters, paraders and flag-burners, stormtroopers and messianic poodles - be strong, don'T become tired, and carry on as long as you can! Your show is so fantastic that money cannot pay for it! :yeah:

[Skybird]

And just for the record: Palestinian TV and other Arab stations air every day far more hostile and openly racist propaganda bull in their children channels, demonising Jews and Christians in long since forgotten styles and manners and spoilling out hate and offendings hour for hour , that it makes one movie now compare to a weak breeze in a waterglass. Where is the outrage about that? Where is the Western media attention to that? Why is there no outcry over this, which happens day for day? Why no word in favour of the targets and victims of these media crusades?

;)

[MH]

And just for the record: Palestinian TV and other Arab stations air every day far more hostile and openly racist propaganda bull in their children channels, demonising Jews and Christians in long since forgotten styles and manners and spoilling out hate and offendings hour for hour , that it makes one movie now compare to a weak breeze in a waterglass. Where is the outrage about that? Where is the Western media attention to that? Why is there no outcry over this, which happens day for day? Why no word in favour of the targets and victims of these media crusades?

;)

Muslims are much more sensitive...just listen to their music lol.

[Oberon]

Yemens turn now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19584734

Looks like tomorrow will be Pakistans turn, and given that the ISI has the US as public enemy number one now (allegedly) it will be likely that it will get out of hand and there will be trouble.
On the up side, at least the US embassy there knows that there's likely to be trouble tomorrow and can prepare for it.
I am surprised that there's not more security at US embassies in Islamic countries though, I mean, America is not exactly the most favoured nation of the radical Muslim and there are certain nations that are more susceptible to radical uprisings than others at the moment (post-Arab Spring nations, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, to name a few). You'd have thought that this would have been seen coming, if it wasn't a film it'd have been something else. :hmmm:

[1480]

If its jihad they want....

[yubba]

Yemens turn now.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19584734

Looks like tomorrow will be Pakistans turn, and given that the ISI has the US as public enemy number one now (allegedly) it will be likely that it will get out of hand and there will be trouble.
On the up side, at least the US embassy there knows that there's likely to be trouble tomorrow and can prepare for it.
I am surprised that there's not more security at US embassies in Islamic countries though, I mean, America is not exactly the most favoured nation of the radical Muslim and there are certain nations that are more susceptible to radical uprisings than others at the moment (post-Arab Spring nations, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, to name a few). You'd have thought that this would have been seen coming, if it wasn't a film it'd have been something else. :hmmm:
A couple of claymore mines on the gate, and a quad 60 phlax system should do nicely, I walk past the newspaper stand this morning and read some of the headines, the one that stuck out most was, Might have been a terrorist attack. So it was a birthday party that some how went a rye, so they decided to use a american ambassador as a {pin yacht ta} my mistake, and why is the media attacking Romney for his statements.???
Arab spring more like a nuclear winter.

[Oberon]

A couple of claymore mines on the gate, and a quad 60 phlax system should do nicely, I walk past the newspaper stand this morning and read some of the headines, the one that stuck out most was, Might have been a terrorist attack. So it was a birthday party that some how went a rye, so they decided to use a american ambassador as a {pin yacht ta} my mistake, and why is the media attacking Romney for his statements.???
Arab spring more like a nuclear winter.

I'm not sure what the law is on mining embassies, and knowing the R2D2 it'll probably try to engage all the combatants at the same time and crash. :haha:
At the very least they need to look at reducing embassy staff during this period and having a few more Marines around, and a helo prepped to get sensitive documents and people out of the trouble spot if it all kicks off.

Is it a targeted Al'Qaeda movement to coincide with 9/11, it's entirely possible, can't rule it out but this isn't the first time a film that has offended Muslims has caused problems, in 1977 the film 'The Message' caused a hostage crisis in Washington. These things are going to happen, particularly now in a world where media is very accessible. Thirty or forty years ago, the film would have been a straight to VHS release and no-one would have heard of it. Now, social media and outlets like youtube mean that videos can go viral in a matter of minutes, like the now infamous 'Gangnam style' video which, forty years ago, would never have been heard of.
It's a small world now.

[mookiemookie]

What amazes me is how quickly these morons take things to extremes. It's like someone in the U.S. says "You know, I don't really like Islam" at a cocktail party and then before you know it, rocks are being thrown, tires burned and 10 people are decapitated.

[HunterICX]

^Sounds like the average night out in Jersey Shore, well without the decapitations.

HunterICX

[Tchocky]

Is it a targeted Al'Qaeda movement to coincide with 9/11, it's entirely possible, can't rule it out but this isn't the first time a film that has offended Muslims has caused problems, in 1977 the film 'The Message' caused a hostage crisis in Washington

I imagine it's much more likely the protests and riots etc were organised and "scheduled", the film provides a trigger is all.

[MH]

I imagine it's much more likely the protests and riots etc were organised and "scheduled", the film provides a trigger is all.
:doh:

[Oberon]

https://www.facebook.com/TheSorryProject

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262221_102211029936142_687042696_n.jpg

For each side there is always another side.

[MH]

https://www.facebook.com/TheSorryProject



For each side there is always another side.
Yes there is...but the question is which way the current flows...

[Platapus]

I imagine it's much more likely the protests and riots etc were organised and "scheduled", the film provides a trigger is all.


You may be right. A protest is a good cover for a preplanned attack.

[Oberon]

Yes there is...but the question is which way the current flows...

Oh, against them, that is certain, the poor bastards. But which one out of the two makes better news headlines? Peace protests or burning embassies?
Still, if one were to judge a nation by the acts of its extremists then we'd all be tarred. Heck, some people do, those who still call all Germans Nazis, and all Americans Rednecks.

It is, unfortunately, the cycle of this century, and this kind of thing will go on. The more media attention it gets, the more likely it is to happen again.

[nikimcbee]

You may be right. A protest is a good cover for a preplanned attack.

I had a friend who fought in the Battle of Falujah (sp?) in 2003(?). He was telling me that the Mahdi militia was using the mosques as weapons caches (surprise, surprise:down:). So, they had them totally beat down, when all of a sudden here comes an Iraqi "protest". So to protect their speech rights, the battle stopped and the "protesters" passed thru unmolested to the place of worship.

Then.... Shazaam!!!
(for the sound effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoOU1YQ_xkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkIS3G64ug0


allah be praised, those "protesters" magically turned into reinforcements (Carrying supplies) for the militia.

read about it here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Devils-Sandbox-Battalion-Infantry/dp/0760323941

[yubba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHs86nH2x4I any questions. Takes the thug right out of any extrememist

[Sailor Steve]

a rye
pin yacht ta
Please tell me you do this intentionally. :dead:

[Hottentot]

Please tell me you do this intentionally. :dead:

What do you have against spilling me stakes?

[mapuc]

Some one postet this on his wall. I do not know if it really have happened

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff440/mapuc/F-18.jpg

Markus

[Kaye T. Bai]

Some one postet this on his wall. I do not know if it really have happened

I remember this incident. The Iranians told the USMC F/A-18 that they were sending up an IRIAF F-14 and he skedaddled.

Just kidding, personally I think its too good to be true, but who knows?

For each side there is always another side.

I appluad them. But, unfortunately proper blokes like these are in the minority. :(

[Stealhead]

Some one postet this on his wall. I do not know if it really have happened

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff440/mapuc/F-18.jpg

Markus

It is fake no US military pilot would give that response even though they might want to.It is also a very old story been floating around since at least 2008.


Also 121.5 MHz is used for international distress such a conversation would never occur on that frequency.

Iran did routinely challenge US military aircraft in Iraqi air space though the "discussion" would not have gone down like that.

[Kaye T. Bai]

It is fake no U.S. military pilot would give that response even though they might want to. Also 121.5 MHz is used for international distress such a conversation would never occur on that frequency.

Well, there you have it! :up:

[Stealhead]

Many US Embassies do have a version of the claymore mine that is loaded with soft rubber balls to make a crowd disperse.Think of a sting ball grenade on steroids.

[Stealhead]

Many US Embassies do have a version of the claymore mine that is loaded with soft rubber balls to make a crowd disperse.Think of a sting ball grenade on steroids. Johnny Knoxville demonstrates:little bit of language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFARzhvWxX4

Change the language to Arabic you get the idea.

[soopaman2]

I am not surprised.

They danced as the Twin Towers fell. This was their version of Americas 4th of July fireworks, the greatest thing they ever accomplished. Why would they not celebrate it in grand fashion?

No need no need to get into the mind of heathens. Why did Dahmer eat people. Why did Mcveigh kill Americans? Why did Carter let the Shah be overthrown? Why did Guido Fawkes try to bomb parliament?

The best thing we can do is leave these savages be. With their archaic religious sharia laws, they will wipe each other out within 200 years, once they stop trying to fight the outside, they will turn inwards.

Not specific to Muslims either, it is human animalistic nature to do so. (Right America?)

But as long as there is an external enemy to put priority on, there will never be any internal examination.

Maybe that is why America starts so many wars? I am changing my opinion..Nah. :)

Humans are crap in general.

KILL IRAN Right Mitt? Yeah man I am with ya.:down:

[yubba]

Damn, soopaman you're going to blow a head gasket, you need to tell that to, this administration that can't say it's an act of terrorism, or there are islamic extremist that will do us harm, and why the hell are the Marines disarmed at these embassies by the state department.????? Mr President hows that arab spring workin out for you....?????

[eddie]

Damn, soopaman you're going to blow a head gasket, you need to tell that to, this administration that can't say it's an act of terrorism, or there are islamic extremist that will do us harm, and why the hell are the Marines disarmed at these embassies by the state department.????? Mr President hows that arab spring workin out for you....?????

Working out as well as when Ronald Reagan (the Moral Values, God lovin' Republican President, who projected the U.S. Military might around the world,lol) sent the Marines into Beirut, and got 200 of them killed in one mighty blast!

Then he sent the US Navy into the eastern Med, had them attack the Bekaa Valley, blowin' hole in farmers field, uprooting trees and killing goats! Damn, he sure showed them who was in charge,LMAO!

[yubba]

Working out as well as when Ronald Reagan (the Moral Values, God lovin' Republican President, who projected the U.S. Military might around the world,lol) sent the Marines into Beirut, and got 200 of them killed in one mighty blast!

Yeah we haven't learned a damn thing have we, I knew 30 of those 200 but I think it was closer to 300, they belonged to Comm company 8th engineers support bn 2nd fssg. they lived in the building next to mine, they never came home, we bugged out in 24 hrs and ended up in Gitmo just in time for that Garnada thing. At least Ronnie was, no head bowing, apolojetic commie. You want to live in a free country there's a high price too pay, freedom doesn't come cheap, I don't believe we should pay tribute, or kiss anyones feet like this present administration does and they even booed god so how's that for morality, it was this mambi pambi weak knee-ed liberal clap trap from both sides of the aisle that got us in this mess in the first place. I'm a AMERICAN and I'm tired of being sorry, it's time to do what we do best and that is piss people off because we are a free people..

[1480]

Even more disgusting developments. The film was made by a convicted drug trafficker who is a coptic christain:

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Feds-ID-California-man-s-role-in-anti-Islam-film-3860315.php

Thought homosexuality was a crime against Allah, reports are saying the ambassador was raped before he was killed:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/#.UFFsmEHLVQ0.twitter

[Takeda Shingen]

it was this mambi pambi weak knee-ed liberal clap trap from both sides of the aisle that got us in this mess in the first place.

No, it was this gung-ho let's go build nations and 'spread democracy' across the Middle East that we've being doing since the 50's that put us in this mess. We had no business getting involved in this in the first place, and each time the only thing that we do is empower the very people that we are trying to keep out of power. The purpose of foreign policy is to ultimately secure our own interests. Clearly this is not happening, which leads me to your next sentence.

I'm a AMERICAN and I'm tired of being sorry, it's time to do what we do best and that is piss people off because we are a free people..

So our military involvement in these affairs has palced us in this position, and you feel that the solution will be more military involvement? It hasn't worked so far. Where should we invade? Libya and Egypt? Iran? Pakistan? Horn of Africa? It is hubris that brought us to this brink, and it seems as though this same hubris with drive us over it.

You are correct that continuing our current direction in foreign policy ('democracy spreading') will lead to our ruin. However, going to full-scale war will lead to the same ruin, only much, much sooner.

[mookiemookie]

Apparently to some people "not acting like a bully and bombing the crap out of everyone we disagree with" is the same as "apologizing."

it's time to do what we do best and that is piss people off because we are a free people.. It's this kind of attitude that's just idiotic. The U.S. doesn't have some monopoly on freedom. It doesn't give us the right to "piss people off". Pissing people off is what's got us into this mess and drained this nation of blood and treasure. It's attitudes like this that are ruining this country. yubs, you deserve every bit of condemnation and mockery thrown your way.

[Tribesman]

Even more disgusting developments. The film was made by a convicted drug trafficker who is a coptic christain:

So you have some far right extremist "christians" pushing their sick agenda while claiming to be jews with Israeli financing.:hmmm:
The real names that keep cropping up lead to some of Skybirds greatest "oh no its the muslims" links, namely the "oh dear them ******s and muslims do be ruining soccer" one and the ""christian"/sikh terrorist supporters club" at prophet of doom.
As there is no free speech without consequences and people must be responsible for the consequences of their actions and since there seems to be a clearly definable agenda from these lunatics I think that puts Skybirds "academic sources" pretty much in the same field as the mobs in the middle east and the crazy imans spurring them on.

What you, guys live under a rock, who said the war on terror was over
Yubba.
If you get the actual story without going through crazy conspiracy Beck at the blaze or Jones at the loony prison planet you might possibly understand why it is you who is living under a rock.
If you look at what has been said widely about the "war on terror" ever since the sillyness of a catchphase was dreamt up you may even possibly understand something very basic.
To put it really simply so maybe even you can get it. How can something be over if it has never actually existed?

Yeah we haven't learned a damn thing have we
Indeed , to take your example , you propped up a dodgy government that was being run for someone elses benefit, then you stepped in again to prop up the dodgy government and ensure the "democracy" of minority rule, then you stepped in again to try and prop up the dodgy government and minority rule and welcomed a neighbouring brutal dictatorship as a friendly stabilising force then got blown to hell ran away and left the mess which persiststo this day but you are now confused as to wha to do about the crazy neighbouring dictator as the "stability" they bring as your buddy tends to blow up really big in the end.
You yubba really very clearly havn't leared a damn thing about even the basics which you like to rant about.

[Skybird]

No, it was this gung-ho let's go build nations and 'spread democracy' across the Middle East that we've being doing since the 50's that put us in this mess. We had no business getting involved in this in the first place, and each time the only thing that we do is empower the very people that we are trying to keep out of power. The purpose of foreign policy is to ultimately secure our own interests. Clearly this is not happening, which leads me to your next sentence.

So our military involvement in these affairs has palced us in this position, and you feel that the solution will be more military involvement? It hasn't worked so far. Where should we invade? Libya and Egypt? Iran? Pakistan? Horn of Africa? It is hubris that brought us to this brink, and it seems as though this same hubris with drive us over it.

You are correct that continuing our current direction in foreign policy ('democracy spreading') will lead to our ruin. However, going to full-scale war will lead to the same ruin, only much, much sooner.

Hm, while partially agreeing, I think you leave out one imporant, maybe the decisive, perspective.

America under Obama has given the impression to act and behave weak towards the challenges set up by Islam due to its very own ideological drive with which Wetsern actions have nothign to do - it is build-in. Obama and Clinton are two great appeasers, it started with Obama'S unbelievable Cairo speech.

At the same time the Salafists gained influence throughout the Musli world - and in the EU as well. The Salafists are even more uncomprised and "radical" than is the Muslim broitherhood. Here in germany they have been enagged in clashes with the police that left dozens of policemen injured, several ones serious. They run a big campaign currently and want freeely distrirbute a Quranm to every hpousehold. Our intel community rates them as extremely dangerous and hostile towards the constitutional order of this state.

These Salafists have become the dominant power behind and sometimes before the stage curtains in Libya and Egypt. And - surprise, surprise - they are very close to Al Quaeda.

The riots of the past days have been staged, and much seems to point at the Salafists behind it. As a German paper yesterday commented, this offensive of theirs has been motivated by an America saoftspoeaking towardsa the Idsolamic drives in the region, and giving the picture of an actor in decline, falling into weakness.

The American empire - and that includes the West - now has reached the historical phase of suffering from a state of overstretched. This indicates a decline indeed. Defence ideally must take place on so many more levels than what the productivity of this empire can support, and I do not mean that militarily only. It also means ideals ansd values, claims, diplomatic influence, economic influence, and last but not least: money. And lket'ÄS face it: if your allies in the world still depend onthe enemy's oil and yourself has a stellar ammount of debts that is now as high or hiogher than your yearls GNP, then your options are limited. you have ended up in a state of being overstretched.

Next station: collapse. Could still be years or decades away, a time in which there will be stealthy erosion from the inside, but the next stationin the historical life-cycle of an already overstretched empire is collapse. Just remember how sudden and quickly it all went down the drain for the Soviet Union in 1989 - 1991: quick, fast, irresistable.

Isolationism is no option here to reorganise America. The links to the outside world are too intense, the dependencies too vital, the mutual financial and economic interactions too inextricable as that this could be tried without even accelerating the fall.

Don't expect help from EUristan - we are already too occupied with pushing forward our own self-deconstruction as if we could lend you a hand in assisting yours.

[yubba]

No, it was this gung-ho let's go build nations and 'spread democracy' across the Middle East that we've being doing since the 50's that put us in this mess. We had no business getting involved in this in the first place, and each time the only thing that we do is empower the very people that we are trying to keep out of power. The purpose of foreign policy is to ultimately secure our own interests. Clearly this is not happening, which leads me to your next sentence.

So why is Obama and his crew so gung ho to spread democracy across the the middle east, ain't this his arab spring,????

So our military involvement in these affairs has palced us in this position, and you feel that the solution will be more military involvement? It hasn't worked so far. Where should we invade? Libya and Egypt? Iran? Pakistan? Horn of Africa? It is hubris that brought us to this brink, and it seems as though this same hubris with drive us over it.

You know what I'm tired of you putting words in my mouth, I find it quite offencesive, I have never backed the involvement of our military in the middle east and if I did say anything it was that we should fight to win or get out, If you have a problem with us being in the middle east you need to take it up with the present administration, attacking me is not going to solve anything, because this administration has seem to have doubled down on the policies of previous administration Obama liked what Bush done he doubled down on what Bush did.

{{You are correct that continuing our current direction in foreign policy ('democracy spreading') will lead to our ruin. However, going to full-scale war will lead to the same ruin, only much, much sooner.[/QUOTE]}}}}


You need to find where I said that we should go to full scale war with anybody except this present administration, like I said it's Obamas arab spring. you voted for the guy live with it. this is Obamas mess he's the man in charge. Obama spiked the ball on the killing of Bin ladin and others what do you expect to happen on 9/11

[Skybird]

A press review:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-press-review-on-middle-east-violence-against-us-embassies-a-855835.html

They al tend to agree that the American ME policy is completely in ruins.


The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:

"The murder of an ambassador in Libya and the attacks on US diplomatic missions in other Arab countries is sure to strengthen the skepticism that more than a few Americans feel toward Muslims and the political changes brought by the Arab revolutions. The deeply held American belief that all you have to do is liberate people from serfdom and dictatorship, and then democracy and a market economy will develop more or less on their own, burned to ash in the trial by fire of Iraq. A fact that academics and historically informed diplomats have always known can now be observed throughout the Arab world: Deeply ingrained cultural attitudes do not change simply because one political regime replaces another. In the long process of building a democratic society, it is not possible to simply skip stages."


The conservative Die Welt writes:

"US President Barack Obama's Middle East policy is in ruins. Like no president before him, he tried to win over the Arab world. After some initial hesitation, he came out clearly on the side of the democratic revolutions. … In this context, he must accept the fact that he has snubbed old close allies such as Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Egyptian military. And now parts of the freed societies are turning against the country which helped bring them into being. Anti-Americanism in the Arab world has even increased to levels greater than in the Bush era. It's a bitter outcome for Obama."

"Obama was naive to believe that one only needed to adopt a new tone and show more respect in order to dispel deep-seated reservations about the free world. In practice, the policies of the Obama administration in the region were not as naive as they may have seemed at times, and the Americans have always been much more involved in the Middle East than the passive Europeans. But Washington has provided the image of a distracted superpower in the process of decline to the societies there. This image of weakness is being exploited by Salafists and al-Qaida, who are active in North Africa from Somalia to Mali."

One thing is clear: If jihadists believe they can attack American installations and kill an ambassador on the anniversary of Sept. 11, then America's deterrent power has declined considerably. For a superpower, it is not enough just to want to be loved. You have to scare the bad guys to keep them in check."

[Skybird]

Headline just in: "demonstrators" attack German embassy in Sudan.

[Skybird]

^... and the British as well.

I mean the British embassy gets attacked as well, not that the British attacked the German embassy. :D

[Skybird]

Errr... it is "demonstrators" attacking the British embassy, not the Germans attacking both. :D

Any questions?

[Oberon]

What could Obama have done different though? If he had not come out in support of the Arab Spring then his opponents would have had a massive amount of ammunition to throw at him, accusing him of supporting 'repressive' regimes, of allowing Al'Qaeda to spread through alliances with the protesters (like the current situation in the Syrian civil war) and of not being in touch with the Middle East.
So, he sided with the Arab Spring, and is also slammed.

It's a no-win scenario...heck, the entire Middle East is a no-win scenario that the West is linked to through our obscene demand for oil.

[Oberon]

Errr... it is "demonstrators" attacking the British embassy, not the Germans attacking both. :D

Any questions?

Phew! For a moment there I thought I'd have to get the tin hat out, dig out an Anderson shelter and start up a Dig for Victory campaign! :salute::O:

[Tribesman]

You know what I'm tired of you putting words in my mouth, I find it quite offencesive
The Beck/Jones parrot is complaining about putting words in peoples mouths.:har::har::har::har::har:
Yubba his take on what you wrote was far more charitable than what could be deduced from your words, you should be happy he only put those words there.


You need to find where I said that we should go to full scale war with anybody except this present administration
Woohoo yubbas on for full scale treason and his crazy wingnut militia loons starting a civil war.
Its time you got sent to those legendary FEMA canps:rotfl2:

[Takeda Shingen]

You know what I'm tired of you putting words in my mouth, I find it quite offencesive

They're your words:

I'm a AMERICAN and I'm tired of being sorry, it's time to do what we do best and that is piss people off because we are a free people..

Emphasis mine. If that's not a call to open war, I don't know what one is. Your hatred of Obama blinds you in regard to the big picture. Words did not cause this. It was action. It was our policy of regime change in the region since the Iran and the Shah in 1951. Every time we go on and proclaim peace in our time, and every time our enemies sieze the opportunity.

It isn't some speech in Cairo that enabled the death of our ambassador. It was our policy of intervention that did, and this is nothing new introduced by the current administration. It is nothing that will be fixed by a president Romney, either. His desire for open war will bring about our downfall in far more rapid fashion. Not that it matters in the end, I suppose; we as a nation seem driven to our own doom.

[TLAM Strike]

500 are protesting and waving AQ flags outside of our embassy in Kuwait...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jufKldS27pVrngld9YcMlHNbU51g?docId=CNG.a48a7 96e0f9e6041141d001af68f2f5e.701

and if you didn't hear with that ME press is saying about what the Libyans did to the Ambassador Stevens it's quite sick...

Warnings it has that NSFW picture and its in arabic so you will need to translate...
http://www.tayyar.org/Tayyar/News/PoliticalNews/ar-LB/usa-killed-lybia-zek-970.htm

(Basically they are saying they did to Stevens what happened to Qaddafi. :stare: )

[the_tyrant]

Give them 20 more years
When their oil runs out, who the hell still gives a damn about them?

[Skybird]

Give them 20 more years
When their oil runs out, who the hell still gives a damn about them?
Three:

Business and globalised companies - who know no ethical scruples and national loyalties, but do business with everybody allowing them a profit as long as the profit is higher then the penalties they pay when getting caught while breaking embargos or laws.

Their women - with birth rates multiple times as high than that of ours. Our societies shrink, theirs explode in numbers. For two coming generations they will be brimming with youth's drive and energy to expand, to conquer, and turn the world into theirs - match that with the drive of Quranic ideology, and you are in for some party ahead. In 50, 60 years, overaging will catch them like we are being caught now. They will become tired, exhausted, old then. But until then - well, we better be on our guard. Which undoubtedly we are not.

Their Quranic self-perception - of being the final meaning and ending point of all human evolution and developement, with a fully Muslim mankind being the will of Allah - no matter the cost to get there.

[yubba]

[QUOTE=Takeda Shingen;1934102]They're your words:



Emphasis mine. If that's not a call to open war, I don't know what one is. Your hatred of Obama blinds you in regard to the big picture. Words did not cause this. It was action. It was our policy of regime change in the region since the Iran and the Shah in 1951. Every time we go on and proclaim peace in our time, and every time our enemies sieze the opportunity.

Guess what, you do what you do best is take my words out of context, no where in my statement, that we should do what we do best by p_ssen people off is by being free, advocates war with anyone,,. All we have to do is be free and stay free, and it p_sses them off. Well Uncle Joe said GM is alive and Bin la din is dead. Well your blind faith in Obama has blinded you to whats going on now our embassies are on fire around the world so what's the plan smart guy.????

[Takeda Shingen]

Well your blind faith in Obama has blinded you to whats going on now our embassies are on fire around the world so what's the plan smart guy.????

I have no faith in Obama. I just have no faith in your guy Romney either.

How's this for a plan: Since we seem so bent on spending ourselves into oblivion via the military, why don't we pull our troops out of this region and bring them home to be put to work, I don't know, maybe defending America? We've got nearly 2000 miles of virtually open border right here that the cartels that practically run Mexico treat as their own personal highway and playground in ferrying people, drugs and weapons into our country. Moreover, it is a gaping hole in which terror groups can enter the US with impunity. Maybe, just maybe, it would be better to patrol that area instead of trying to bring America's enemies into power by fighting some enemy in some desert on the other side of the world. If we put the kind of effort in policing our border with Mexico as we spend 'bringing democracy' and building nations in the Middle East we could solve our illegal immigration problems without having to worry about Dream Acts and other legislation.

Whaddya think?

[AVGWarhawk]

I have no faith in Obama. I just have no faith in your guy Romney either.

How's this for a plan: Since we seem so bent on spending ourselves into oblivion via the military, why don't we pull our troops out of this region and bring them home to be put to work, I don't know, maybe defending America? We've got nearly 2000 miles of virtually open border right here that the cartels that practically run Mexico treat as their own personal highway and playground in ferrying people, drugs and weapons into our country. Moreover, it is a gaping hole in which terror groups can enter the US with impunity. Maybe, just maybe, it would be better to patrol that area instead of trying to bring America's enemies into power by fighting some enemy in some desert on the other side of the world. If we put the kind of effort in policing our border with Mexico as we spend 'bringing democracy' and building nations in the Middle East we could solve our illegal immigration problems without having to worry about Dream Acts and other legislation.

Whaddya think?


Good luck with that.

[Skybird]

I have no faith in Obama. I just have no faith in your guy Romney either.

How's this for a plan: Since we seem so bent on spending ourselves into oblivion via the military, why don't we pull our troops out of this region and bring them home to be put to work, I don't know, maybe defending America? We've got nearly 2000 miles of virtually open border right here that the cartels that practically run Mexico treat as their own personal highway and playground in ferrying people, drugs and weapons into our country. Moreover, it is a gaping hole in which terror groups can enter the US with impunity. Maybe, just maybe, it would be better to patrol that area instead of trying to bring America's enemies into power by fighting some enemy in some desert on the other side of the world. If we put the kind of effort in policing our border with Mexico as we spend 'bringing democracy' and building nations in the Middle East we could solve our illegal immigration problems without having to worry about Dream Acts and other legislation.

Whaddya think?
Page 6, posting #89, second last paragraph:

Isolationism is no option here to reorganise America. The links to the outside world are too intense, the dependencies too vital, the mutual financial and economic interactions too inextricable as that this could be tried without even accelerating the fall.

If you want to accelerate the desintegration of the American empire, go ahead with isolationism. No empire ever so far could afford to turn passive. Whenever any empire reached that phase of its lifecycle, it died a slow death.

Globalisation was forthought by American business. And now it turns against you (and us as well) and bites us in our lower bottoms. Karma that is: cause and (longterm) effect.

Compare it to agriculture going from diverse farming to giant monocultures. Financial short term profit - versus long term disadvantages on social and environmental and biological levels. The same is done by seed companies having destroyed natural diversity of seeds and genetically deleting them to be reusable in secodn generation seeds, so that farmers must buy new seeds from the comnpany instead. This also will cost us dearly in the future.

Bigger, wider, higher, better, which seems to be a modern motto. But there are no God-cheats in real life. Everything comes at a cost. Every cause has a reaction. No shortcuts. No miracle alchemy turning dirt into pure gold.

[Takeda Shingen]

Globalisation was forthought by American business. And now it turns against you (and us as well) and bites us in our lower bottoms. Karma that is: cause and (longterm) effect.

Compare it to agriculture going from diverse farming to giant monocultures. Financial short term profit - versus long term disadvantages on social and environmental and biological levels. The same is done by seed companies having destroyed natural diversity of seeds and genetically deleting them to be reusable in secodn generation seeds, so that farmers must buy new seeds from the comnpany instead. This also will cost us dearly in the future.

Bigger, wider, higher, better, which seems to be a modern motto. But there are no God-cheats in real life. Everything comes at a cost. Every cause has a reaction. No shortcuts. No miracle alchemy turning dirt into pure gold.

And you would have us use nuclear weapons against Iran. No, I like isolation better.

Good luck with that.

It cannot possibly be more disasterous than the course that we have been on for 60 years.

[Tribesman]

Guess what, you do what you do best is take my words out of context, no where in my statement, that we should do what we do best by p_ssen people off is by being free, advocates war with anyone,,.
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
What crazy dreamworld do you live in?
You don't piss people off by being free, you only managed to piss people off by doing what you do in their countries.
That is the cause of their long running actions and the only freedom you can possibly actually mean is the freedom to screw up badly around the world with dimwitted half baked superpower policies.

[Herr-Berbunch]

If we put the kind of effort in policing our border with Mexico . . .

You forgot to mention Canada! :o

And I can't believe yubba is self-censoring a word that hasn't been deemed by the boss to be necessary to censor. :har:

[Skybird]

And you would have us use nuclear weapons against Iran. No, I like isolation better.


When the mob in Pakistan gains control of their nukes, you will start to wish you would have used nukes while there still was time, too. ;) There are worse things than mini-nuking a secret, superhardened laboratory bunker in some desert. For example a nuclear suitcase bomb in the hand of a hate-filled Islamic terrorist walking the streets of New York, eager to slaughter as many infidel swines as possible.

To change a quote from LOTR - those who refuse to live up to the need to stay active and fight, still can get overwhelmed by the fight resulting from their passivity.

See Obama. His ME policy is AT LEAST as disastrous as that of Bush was. They are both extremes, but at different ends of the spectrum - and both failed and both caused disastrous consequences. Maybe another fallout from the fanatical polarisation in American politics.

I somewhat understand what worries you. And I have sympathy for it, and partially agree with it. It's just that I know that the passivity you want, weakens us and invites our enemies and acceleratres the fall of Western influence and power. And you are clever enough yourself to see how your national economy is embedded in global contexts of which your survival these days depends.

History often repeats itself. But it never just reverses and starts moving backwards.

[Takeda Shingen]

To change a quote from LOTR - those who refuse to live up to the need to stay active and fight, still can get overwhelmed by the fight resulting from their passivity.

Then you fight for it. Don't volunteer us. If the United States uses nuclear weapons, then the US takes North Korea's place as the most diplomatically and economically isolated nation on earth. We in the US then have the same problems as North Korea -- famine, power outages, mass death. The EU has nuclear weapons, let them do it if you want it done. But none of that will change the Middle East. None of that will solve the problem. It is our involvement that is the problem.

Remember Einstein? Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[AVGWarhawk]

It cannot possibly be more disasterous than the course that we have been on for 60 years.

No matter what course was suggested concerning illegals and the border it was always the wrong course. So, no wall with motion sensor high powered machine guns. Ok, they cross the border with impunity and offered the Dream Act instead. Discussing the border and preventing crossing of illegals is like discussing the usefulness of a trap door in a canoe.

[AVGWarhawk]

You don't piss people off by being free, you only managed to piss people off by doing what you do in their countries.
That is the cause of their long running actions and the only freedom you can possibly actually mean is the freedom to screw up badly around the world with dimwitted half baked superpower policies.

Most folks don't care to be "told" what to do. So yes, people get PO'd when another(US) dictate how it should go.

World Police....not really something I believe the US should continue to do.

[Kloef]

World Police....not really something I believe the US should continue to do.

For the U.S to isolate at this time would be a disaster of gigantic proportions, you can't just stop what you've started you have to end things first..

And a long as Nato exists it's impossible, thank God...

[Takeda Shingen]

No matter what course was suggested concerning illegals and the border it was always the wrong course. So, no wall with motion sensor high powered machine guns. Ok, they cross the border with impunity and offered the Dream Act instead. Discussing the border and preventing crossing of illegals is like discussing the usefulness of a trap door in a canoe.

I'm not talking about a wall, I am talking about troops. A physical presence at the border. We're paying all these guys, let's put them to work actually protecting America. They'll be safer and so will we.

[Oberon]

US isolation does not work, it has been tried twice and in both occasions war has come to America, whilst America has not been in the position to oppose it. Thus a lengthy spool up process on the US military industrial complex is needed and all the meantime US lives are being lost.
In the last wars America had the luxury of being out of range of its enemies bombers (with the exception of some submarines, a seaplane or two and some balloons), so its industry was undamaged by the enemy.
America may not have that luxury in its next major war, particularly as missile technology improves, so isolation and the draw-down of forces that it represents may improve matters in the short term but may prove damaging in the long term. It's not particularly black and white.
The answer, possibly, lies somewhere in between Skybirds "nuke 'em" and Takedas isolation, but both extremes are, in this Europeans opinion anyway, wrong and will only serve to damage America in the long run.
Being number one is a tough job, and everyone hates you, how do you think the UK managed to simultaneously annoy half of Europe, America, Russia and Africa? Our methods were primitive, but our goal was the same, betterment for our nation, and if that meant treading on the toes of a few natives then that's what we did. It was selfish, but that's how we thought at the time, that's how ALL nations think. Eventually Americas time in the limelight will come to an end, and I think that is where we are heading, but swinging to one side or the other will result in a Rome style ending rather than a gradual slide into mediocrity, and no-one wants the chaos that happened at the end of Romes time in the limelight.

The question is, who will be next? China? They don't strike me as the type to use their hard power outside of their current sphere of influence. I suspect we are heading back into the Great Games of the 1800s with multiple small empires vying for resources and prestige...only this time instead of rifles, muskets and cavalry, we have missiles, nukes and tanks.
Interesting times, as the Chinese curse goes...

[Penguin]

The Arab people are emotional.
Films make them laugh.
Films make them upset.
Films make them cry.
Films make them angry and let them go crazy and kill.
But when they see in Syria mosques and churches getting shelled.
Koran books getting burned.
Women being insulted.
It doesn't move them.
Because it is not a film.
It's reality.
We wish that what is happening in Syria was a film.
At least Arabs would do something for us


From http://www.facebook.com/Mr.Domary a satire page from the Syrian opposition, translated by the LA Times.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm not talking about a wall, I am talking about troops. A physical presence at the border. We're paying all these guys, let's put them to work actually protecting America. They'll be safer and so will we.

We have tried that. There is still a super highway over the border.

[Skybird]

Then you fight for it. Don't volunteer us. If the United States uses nuclear weapons, then the US takes North Korea's place as the most diplomatically and economically isolated nation on earth. We in the US then have the same problems as North Korea -- famine, power outages, mass death. The EU has nuclear weapons, let them do it if you want it done. But none of that will change the Middle East. None of that will solve the problem. It is our involvement that is the problem.
Fair demand, I wish England or France would do it. But we both know it better. The EU is far more Islamophile than the US. And is far more naive towards Islam, and Iran.

In the end, it does not matter who stops Iran: Israel, America, Europe, Russia - that Iran gets stopped is the only thing important.

BTW, this special issue is not about "changing the ME", as you put it. It is about prevcenting a second Pakistan, and a nuclear arms race in a highly insane part of the world. Changing the ME ? I leave that to others. The ME rates not especially high on my appreciation list.


Remember Einstein? Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

He must have talked about diplomatic appeasement and political naivety. ;) How many rounds does the diplomatic match with Iran count now? Five dozen? Six dozens? Or even over a hundred? What has been achieved in the past 15 years? Well, at least that is easy to know: Zero. Rien. Nada. Nothing. Nichts.

I do not like striking Iran any more than you. But different to you I fear the uncalculatable risks that come from not stopping Iran even more. Nuclear proliferation to religious terrorists. Nuclear arms race in the ME. Nuclear religiously motivated terror. Each of these things alone is a worst case scenario. Together they are a nightmarish recipe for armaggeddon. We better do not bet our lives on that we will be lucky again a second time like during Cuba. And in Cuba we were dealing neither with terrorists, nor with religious maniacs craving for paradise.

[Takeda Shingen]

US isolation does not work, it has been tried twice and in both occasions war has come to America, whilst America has not been in the position to oppose it. Thus a lengthy spool up process on the US military industrial complex is needed and all the meantime US lives are being lost.

We are not fighting wars against nations. We are fighting against guerilla warfare, which has been almost entirely of our own choosing. The comparison is not apt.

The answer, possibly, lies somewhere in between Skybirds "nuke 'em" and Takedas isolation, but both extremes are, in this Europeans opinion anyway, wrong and will only serve to damage America in the long run.

Calling for a halt to our regime change activities in the Middle East is somehow equivalent to dropping the bomb on Tehran?

Being number one is a tough job, and everyone hates you, how do you think the UK managed to simultaneously annoy half of Europe, America, Russia and Africa? Our methods were primitive, but our goal was the same, betterment for our nation, and if that meant treading on the toes of a few natives then that's what we did.

I cannot wait to read your explanation of how the US's foreign policy in the Middle East is bettering the interest of the nation, or even the western world at large. Are we simply to hold to our methods despite the disasterous results? 'Strong and wrong' doesn't sound like wisdom to me.

EDIT:

He must have talked about diplomatic appeasement and political naivety.

I am also looking forward to reading your analysis equating the US's policy of regime change with appeasement.

[Takeda Shingen]

We have tried that. There is still a super highway over the border.

I must have missed the news story where we deployed 84,000 troops (the number of troops currently in Afghanistan) to the border. Do you have a link?

[Betonov]

For the U.S to isolate at this time would be a disaster of gigantic proportions,

It would sink my country. We're too export based to survive a closure of such a large market. I presume the political isolation brings some market isolation woth it.

[CCIP]

Slightly off tangent from the discussion, but I really don't want this one to sink into the usual dehumanisation that these talks seem to ultimately lead to.

Here's a quote that's been circulated online thanks to a certain Russian public activist lately, which I think is worth re-quoting in this situation:

“…A person in whom intolerance reached the breaking point, fanaticism, burning jealousy, sees around him only one thing, only treason, only betrayal, only breaches of faith in a single truth; he is leery and suspicious, revealing everywhere the conspiracies against his beloved idea, against the object of his faith and love… The affect of fear is deeply connected to fanaticism and intolerance… To a fanatic the devil always seems more terrifying and stronger, and so he believes in him, more than in God…In a sense, one could say that fanatic faith is weakness of faith, faithlessness. This is negative faith… Fanatic intolerance is always a deep lack of belief in the human, in God’s likeness in the human, lack of belief in the power of truth, i.e. ultimately, lack of belief in God.” -N. Berdyayev

So, my greetings to the godless fanatics trashing embassies today :salute:

[Skybird]

Tak, you want to go isolationistic? Okay. Imagine you do.

Massive decline in financial cash-flow into the US - you are cut off your blood drip. Well print some more money, doing the Bernake again and again? Germany has been there, you seem to be eager to repeat that experience. You will teach a new cpourse at school: how to correctly write beautiful zeroes. Plenty of them .

Oversee trade exchange belly-landing. US companies, as far as they are really Us anymore and no globalised players not caring for the US at all, seeing their material resources in oversees unprotected. They will react to that, you better believe that. Travelling and braindrain from oversees and into the US crashing. The other vital drip you hang on.

And this happening to a nation already damaged in productivity, with major parts of its indutry not competitve or outsourced, and with a financial debt burden that exceeds it's yearly gross national product.

Go figure what that means for your country, and the people living there.

Dead body floating in the pool.

[Takeda Shingen]

Or, America revolutionizes energy production through renewable and infinite sources and the rest of the world buys the technology and power from us. And since when does ending our foreign policy in the region constitute isolationism? So if you are not prescribing endless war across the globe you are an isolationist? Is Switzerland dead in the pool too?

[Stealhead]

Switzerland profits from how screwed up the rest of the world is so they(government not the people) as big of A-holes as anyone else maybe even more so.They like to sell guns a lot ever heard of Sig Sauer?Switzerland can be neutral because it is a very unique position in the world and also has a much much smaller population than the US.

Unless things change drastically the US will always be involved in stuff like this and nothing is ever going to drastically change.

Some people are just whack jobs and take advantage of people that have little education and place themselves in a position of power and tell those that are uneducated not just from an academic stand point mind you and tell them what they should do and the people do it because they trust the person telling them what to do.Other people are just morons.Morons some how in this world seem to often finds them selves in positions that allow them to spread their stupid ideas to other morons and often to other wise intelligent people.This happens as much in the US as it does in the Middle East or anywhere else so we are not all that different after all.

[Kloef]

Or, America revolutionizes energy production through renewable and infinite sources and the rest of the world buys the technology and power from us.

You are ignorant, what makes you think that 'the rest of the world' wants to buy energy when most countries have plenty of their own? and why would they buy your technology when they are developing their own and even surpassing the U.S in that respect?

There's an enormous infrastructure behind that costing billions of dollars, and immense sources of knowledge. Since the U.S is basically bankrupt what makes you think the U.S could ever compete financially against 'the rest of the world' when they are basically doing pretty well and recovering from the crisis be it slow?

It's a back against the wall situation, either oil or nothing. We need to change that and work together to build such technology so it would be affordable and cheap for all..

But since the U.S is so keen on oil and intends to keep it that way everybody loses..and people die.

[AVGWarhawk]

I must have missed the news story where we deployed 84,000 troops (the number of troops currently in Afghanistan) to the border. Do you have a link?

Did not know you were talking raw numbers but if you want to play the game. Troops on the walls have been deployed:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/25/obama-deploy-national-guard-troops-mexico-border/

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=60071

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/national-guard-deployment-on-us-mexico-border-has-mixed-results/2011/11/21/gIQAly6qXO_story.html


Bush sent 6000 troops for 2 years

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128629792

[Takeda Shingen]

You are ignorant, what makes you think that 'the rest of the world' wants to buy energy when most countries have plenty of their own?


Weren't you the one that was just lamenting the concept of American withdraw and thanking god for NATO? Ingorance indeed. You are fine with Americans fighting battles for you, but revolt at the idea of buying technology from America.

[Takeda Shingen]

Did not know you were talking raw numbers but if you want to play the game. Troops on the walls have been deployed:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/25/obama-deploy-national-guard-troops-mexico-border/

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=60071

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/national-guard-deployment-on-us-mexico-border-has-mixed-results/2011/11/21/gIQAly6qXO_story.html


Bush sent 6000 troops for 2 years

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128629792

I still think we need to send more.

[AVGWarhawk]

I still think we need to send more.

And I think you are right.

[Takeda Shingen]

I think it would also be political suicide for any politician that decides to do it. The interest groups and lobbies within America would rise up against that person and we would soon see him or her our of office. And so, I am sure that we will not be pulling out of the Middle East, and we will not be sending more troops to the border. We're going to continue on this course in one way or another; either by the type of change we saw in Libya or Egypt, or the type we saw in Iraq. In the end, it really won't matter for us. It makes me sad and angry.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, it is political suicide. Like many things in life, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[AVGWarhawk]

For the U.S to isolate at this time would be a disaster of gigantic proportions, you can't just stop what you've started you have to end things first..



Sure the US can isolate. All the US has to do is pull out and say, "My bad."

[Kloef]

Weren't you the one that was just lamenting the concept of American withdraw and thanking god for NATO? Ingorance indeed. You are fine with Americans fighting battles for you, but revolt at the idea of buying technology from America.
__________________



I'm just saying they should not withdraw from the international market and withdraw from Nato..you are pulling my reaction into a time machine back to the cold war thinking like you do and react in an agressive way, who is revolting:06: when you choose to develope you own technology.

In case you didn't notice we fight along side the U.S everywhere you guys make a little boo-boo and we don't choose the battles, you guys do so a little appriciation would be nice, we got guys dying too!:nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm just saying they should not withdraw from the international market and withdraw from Nato..you are pulling my reaction into a time machine back to the cold war thinking like you do and react in an agressive way, who is revolting:06: when you choose to develope you own technology.

In case you didn't notice we fight along side the U.S everywhere you guys make a little boo-boo and we don't choose the battles, you guys do so a little appriciation would be nice, we got guys dying too!:nope:

And you would believe the US would not fight along side the Netherlands when and if the Netherlands made a boo-boo? Welcome to NATO

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3204.htm



FOREIGN RELATIONS
The Netherlands abandoned a longstanding policy of neutrality after World War II. The Dutch are engaged participants in international affairs. Dutch foreign policy is geared to promoting a wide variety of goals: the rule of law, human rights, and democracy. Priority is given to enhancing European integration, ensuring European security and stability (mainly through the mechanism of NATO and the EU, and by emphasizing the important role the United States plays in the security of Europe), and participating in conflict management and peacekeeping missions. In August 2010, the Netherlands withdrew its ground forces after more than 8 years in Afghanistan. It returned to Afghanistan in July 2011 with a police training mission in an EU and NATO context.O.

[Kloef]

that would be something, a country with 16,5 million people attacking or defending and Nato supporting us.

We learned our lesson in the Indonesian War, shut up and listen to Uncle Sam..

[Oberon]

We are not fighting wars against nations. We are fighting against guerilla warfare, which has been almost entirely of our own choosing. The comparison is not apt.


You are fighting guerilla warfare at the moment, however that could change just as quickly as this 'war on terror' began and you could find yourself against any number of nations with a grudge. The PRC over Taiwan, Russia over Eastern Europe or the Arctic. To be honest open warfare is very unlikely but you can't rule it out.
Should the US keep such a large and expensive army in place just in case it finds itself at war with another nation rather than in multiple guerilla uprisings? No, that would be daft, but so would turning your back on international politics and missing out potential opportunities to nip future problems in the bud before they become major problems.
Perhaps we are differing in our interpretation of the term 'isolationism', or it is entirely possible that I am being ignorant of American history in between the World Wars, certainly I know that FDR stretched the limits of US isolationism in the lend-lease deals and other deals of the time, and for that I am very grateful, but I'm not sure if we're on the same page here.

Calling for a halt to our regime change activities in the Middle East is somehow equivalent to dropping the bomb on Tehran?

Stopping regime changing is probably not a bad idea, but surely isolationism means not just that, but also abandoning all US bases in the Middle East and halting all activities?

I cannot wait to read your explanation of how the US's foreign policy in the Middle East is bettering the interest of the nation, or even the western world at large. Are we simply to hold to our methods despite the disasterous results? 'Strong and wrong' doesn't sound like wisdom to me.

The current US foreign policy in the Middle East to me seems to be that of containment. Since 9/11 how many major terrorist attacks have there been in the US? Is that because of increased internal security or Al'Qaeda having to change its leadership every week because a drone has killed the last one? It's hard to say, however both most likely play a part in the matter.
Personally, I think that a similar approach to that taken by the British in Afghanistan in the last Afghan war would be beneficial. Fortify to the hilt the bases that currently exist, and then let aircraft, missiles and drones do the rest of the work. There's a greater risk of collateral damage, unfortunately, but less risk of US soldiers getting killed by IEDs.

However, I understand, to some extent, where you're coming from, and perhaps you may think that if the US just turns over the Middle East to the radicals then they'll leave America alone? Perhaps they would, but I don't think they would, eventually, if organised enough, there would be a war, most likely one against Europe, and America would be brought into it through some act which kills a large number of American civilians or soldiers.

I hope, and I wish, that things like the Arab Spring, turn out with peaceful Arab...whatevers, theocracies, democracies, monarchies, whatever they want, and that they use that peace to build up a nice society and stop bombing things that belong to us. However, with the world as small a place as it is, even if Obama stopped every single military operation tomorrow, the radicals would still find something to blame America for, and it would probably be something a lot like this incident, and that would be enough to spark some nutjob to do something stupid.

By all means, America, feel free to pull back, but be prepared to have to jump back into the breach again within a century at most because I guarantee you that the world will reach out and touch you in some manner shape or form. There is no way to be truely isolationist...except perhaps by being North Korea... :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

You want to live in a free country there's a high price too pay, freedom doesn't come cheap, I don't believe we should pay tribute, or kiss anyones feet like this present administration does and they even booed god so how's that for morality, it was this mambi pambi weak knee-ed liberal clap trap from both sides of the aisle that got us in this mess in the first place. I'm a AMERICAN and I'm tired of being sorry, it's time to do what we do best and that is piss people off because we are a free people..

Ordinarily, I don't quote Yubba, because it's bad for you; but in this case I have to make an exception.

As an veteran who wore the uniform for 5 years active, and another two in the reserves, and having been overseas to different countries in less then ideal cicrumstances, i have to say, You are a blowhard, and an idiot.

Your one of those moron's who waves the American flag around like it's a god damn high school cheer leader pom pom, as you wave from the sidelines, "We're gonna kick your ass"; but hasn't and probably never would back up those words with action. A do nothing who says, "I support our troops", by putting a meaningless yellow ribbon bumper sticker on whatever POS you drive because it makes you feel patroitc. I'll wager you've never been outside the continental united states to see much of ANYTHING. Your one of those ignorant SOB's I grew to resent and hate when i came back from overseas. Living in a bubble with no clue nor concept of what goes on in the rest of the world.

If your going to talk the talk, enlist and walk the walk, or STFU.

I now await my brig time on subsim. I make no apologies. I needed to say it.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe Yubba served. I think I did read a post of his time served. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Marines, IIRC.

[Kloef]

The current US foreign policy in the Middle East to me seems to be that of containment. Since 9/11 how many major terrorist attacks have there been in the US? Is that because of increased internal security or Al'Qaeda having to change its leadership every week because a drone has killed the last one? It's hard to say, however both most likely play a part in the matter.
Personally, I think that a similar approach to that taken by the British in Afghanistan in the last Afghan war would be beneficial. Fortify to the hilt the bases that currently exist, and then let aircraft, missiles and drones do the rest of the work. There's a greater risk of collateral damage, unfortunately, but less risk of US soldiers getting killed by IEDs.

The whole idea IS containment, better fight your enemies at their own doorstep then yours. So how would it be possible to isolate, that would be a slow proces indeed.

The whole thing is turning the other way around even right now, the containing also instigates the war on terrorism. It's like fighting fire with fire and things grow out of control, that is the case right now, we try to contain by force and start the fire up again somewhere else because it pisses people off. This whole thing is so delicate and complex and then some idiot makes a movie or a cartoon and we start all over again.

[Oberon]

The whole idea IS containment, better fight your enemies at their own doorstep then yours. So how would it be possible to isolate, that would be a slow proces indeed.

The whole thing is turning the other way around even right now, the containing also instigates the war on terrorism. It's like fighting fire with fire and things grow out of control, that is the case right now, we try to contain by force and start the fire up again somewhere else because it pisses people off. This whole thing is so delicate and complex and then some idiot makes a movie or a cartoon and we start all over again.

That is the Catch-22. It literally is, fighting fire with fire...but at the same time, if you stop, then eventually the fire is still going to burn, even more so.

[TLAM Strike]

You are ignorant, what makes you think that 'the rest of the world' wants to buy energy when most countries have plenty of their own? and why would they buy your technology when they are developing their own and even surpassing the U.S in that respect? Developing better technology is one thing developing new ones is another. The US is very good at developing new things. There is something about American culture and society that spurs new innovations. I seriously doubt the next killer app gizmo is going to be invented in China.


The whole idea IS containment, better fight your enemies at their own doorstep then yours. So how would it be possible to isolate, that would be a slow proces indeed. While containment works the problem is the willingness to identify what we are containing. Kennan identified that the containment must be on the basis of counterforce against the Soviets and their ideology of Communism, and that victory over the Soviets could not be achieved by talking them to death or by negotiation.

As of yet we have not solidly identified what we are containing, other than its some nebulous "radicals" or "terrorists".

[Ducimus]

I believe Yubba served. I think I did read a post of his time served. :hmmm:

Marines, IIRC.


I call BS. That idiot probably couldn't even service himself. If he ever wore any damn uniform, it was probably as a supply clerk that had one posting stateside his entire enlistment never going anywhere or doing anything.

There are few things I hate more, then stupid ignorant flag waving SOB's, that are keen to needlessly put our people in harms way in 3rd world ****holes that we ought to give less then a **** about to begin with; all the while sitting safe in CONUS, spouting stupid meaningless jingoistic rhetoric.

edit:
See ya in two weeks.

[Kloef]

While containment works the problem is the willingness to identify what we are containing. Kennan identified that the containment must be on the basis of counterforce against the Soviets and their ideology of Communism, and that victory over the Soviets could not be achieved by talking them to death or by negotiation.

There lies the problem, and this thing we call enemy is an expert in hiding, no uniforms no organisation, sometimes amongst us.

Willingness is the right word, but the idea is unacceptable for most.

[CCIP]

Why assume?

And if we assume, let's even allow ourselves to assume that he may well have served in bad circumstances and honorably. Unfortunately "being there" and "drawing sensible conclusions from it" are two different things. While experiencing hard military service first-hand is a good way to get a real perspective on what your country's life and ideals really cost, it is no insurance against being an idiot. As I'm sure you know, there are people anywhere who don't know how to think for themselves and be responsible for others, and sometimes not even the hardest knocks will get that sense into them.

[yubba]

I also don't like being call a liar. I did more in my short time in the corps than you'll do in your whole life. Once a Marine always a Marine and I was a combat engineer, 60 gunner, radio operator, and trained as forward scout listening radio operator. I got to see a squad of Cuban troops blow themselves up with one of their mines, while I was at Gitmo, and while I spent my tour at Camp Le jeune, come to findout here in recent months I was drinking contaminated water there, and people are dying from the contamination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Lejeune_water_contamination



http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/387088_335619739855274_1608058202_n.jpg

And you can look up, comm company 8th engineers support bn 2nd fssg an see how many died for nothing in the Beruit bombing.,,
Keep living the lie guys I really getting a kick out listening how this administration is spinning this, oh it's this video that has the muslims upset and is in no way that our policies are the issue quoted Jay Carney.





http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc6/187104_100002217536053_8302310_q.jpg

[soopaman2]

Now I want to see your long form birth certificate. I am pretty sure you were born in Anarctica. Or the Maldives.

Just kidding.:O::D

I'd honestly rather talk about something that effects more Americans, Not taking sides, just saying.

What I would like to propose is we turn over the film maker who started , the same exact way they handed over Bin Laden. Or the guys who love making beheading videos of innocent journalists, whos only crime is white skin, and being percieved as Christian.

This is a Jihad, why do you think this crap started on 9-11? They are rubbing our faces in it.

They continue to do this, because the west kowtows to them, I lost 10k in wages and benefits last year, no one cared. Someone draws Muhammad, or critisizes Islam the same way people slam other religions, then the world has to bend over and make the children happy.

How about we leave them be, so they can get back to the sectarian violence they employed on each other before we felt the need to colonialize the ME.

Israel is a big reason too. We gave them land based on something written in the bible. It also says not to eat pork or shellfish, this selective adherence is amazing. Should I dig into the fundies now, they love Jesus, but hate everyone else.

You see the problem yet?

Now do we blame god/allah/yweh?

Or do we just call religion what it is, an invented control mechanism, meant to transcend the usual clan/race nationality ties that humans exhibit..

I do not consider myself an atheist at all. But I still critisize blind faith, be you a Fundy, Mormon, Muslim, or catholic.

I do not question god, I question his flock.

[yubba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdnY8r7_fLw

[Madox58]

I'd say bomb them back to the stone age but.......
Spending billions to set them back a couple months is not working as it is.
:nope:

[yubba]

Bombing them into the stoneage would be a step up for most of them, cut the flow of money and our food, let them think about their empty bellies, this is what dependency looks like, well fed and plenty of time on their hands to get into trouble, must be a real b_tch to live in a desert. We go down, we'll take the whole planet with us. But I don't think it will get to that, we got every thing we need here, try growing wheat in the desert you islamic knotheads before you kill another american you better know where your next meal is comeing from.

[Madox58]

There comes a time when locking down and saying NO is needed.
Your people did this or that?
NO FOOD OR AID!!

Don't want to play fair in tradeing?
NO TRADEING ANY MORE!

And on and on.
Lock the Gates, get ready for hard times, and watch the poor bastards die!

Once they are gone? Just walk in and take what you want.

If we don't take that approach sooner rather then latter?
They'll walk in and take what our Government is handing them on a Silver Platter!

We are heading to Civil War here in the U.S.A.
Of that I have no doubt!!

[Oberon]

We go down, we'll take the whole planet with us.

Allahu Ackbar

[eddie]

Allahu Ackbar

:haha::haha::haha:

[yubba]

And people use to call me gloom and doom. it's getting dark here the sun should be riseing on the burning middle east I'm heading to hyperlobby to get a few flights in IL-2 either skies of valor or battlefeild 1 I'm not hard to find usually have smoke or flames comeing out of my plane.

[AVGWarhawk]

Is hyperlobby still around? It's been years since I have logged on to hyperlobby. CFS2 and IL2.

[Madox58]

I've done my time killing in the Middle East and other areas.
I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I can see what is comeing.

For me? To place any type hope in anyone in power is insane.
I won't be one to starve or go down without a major fight because some rich SOB decides what's best for me.
He's already decided he won't go down at my expense.
To believe other wise is suicide!

Bring it on I say.
Your messing with a ParaTrooper no matter how you want to play the Game!
:haha:

[eddie]

If you want to take out all the fanatics in the ME, I suppose we could put Blackwater back on the payroll!!:D

[Stealhead]

Lets just prevent any future problems and go ahead and launch all our nuclear missiles at Russia and China and they at us that will kill just about everyone
and there wont be anyone left to bicker with and there wont be any loonies left and there wont be any political parties or extremist groups or any religious groups left.An extreme version of the Khmer Rouge year zero only everyone dies.

If you only kill a few more will come to replace them and it goes on for generations the only cure is to kill everyone every human.

We are screwed anyway why bother enduring?

[Madox58]

It's going to happen sooner or later.
We all know that and keep putting our heads under the sand hopeing it don't.
No weapon invented has never been used on a wide scale.
You honestly think Nukes will not be used on a wide scale?
It's only a matter of time and time is growing short!
Tic, Toc, Tic, Toc, BOOM!!

December is comeing up fast so may as well complete the calanders of Doom.
:haha:

[Stealhead]

Give me the button I will push it right now then why wait?

I'll do like Major "King" Kong in Dr. Straneglove and ride the nuke all the way down like a real man.I find a crew of real men to fly a B-52H i want it be to aimed at school full
gay jewish mexican chinese islamic iranian hippe pinko commies being controlled by WASPS.

[soopaman2]

Kong. A mans man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0

God rest his kind soul.:D

[Madox58]

I'd as soon see it all go south now rather then later.
Later drains resources we don't have now.

What's the saying?
Better to Reign in Hell then Serve in Heaven?

Given the way things are going now?
You'll serve in Hell first.
We are on the edge of that right now.

[yubba]

I'd as soon see it all go south now rather then later.
Later drains resources we don't have now.

What's the saying?
Better to Reign in Hell then Serve in Heaven?

Given the way things are going now?
You'll serve in Hell first.
We are on the edge of that right now.
Well be careful what you wish for because the US credit rateing just got down graded http://www.cnbc.com/id/49037337 and this is funnier
Carney: Protests not directed at the United States

'This is not a case of protests directed at the United States writ large or at U.S. policy, this is in response to a video that is offensive to Muslims'

http://s4.freebeacon.com/thm/wfb/images/print-red.png (http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-not-directed-at-the-united-states/print/) http://s3.freebeacon.com/thm/wfb/images/email-red.png (http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-not-directed-at-the-united-states/email/)


http://services.iqmediacorp.com/svc/clip/previewImage?eid=c2e7ad01-fc62-439b-8d5b-20ba18960a54http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9GuwuOVZc

[Madox58]

Credit ratings are only a sign of things to come.
The major signs have been out there for years and years.
:nope:

Yes. I am Doom and Gloom!
I am for whole sale slaughter with no quarter given!

It is Human nature and that has yet to be overcome.
History proves it. And We have not reached a level that comes near overcomeing that basic fact of life.

We kill for an idea or faith.
No other creature on this planet does that!

You say God?
I kill you!
You say Allah?
I kill you!

Show me God or Allah.
You can't therefore We kill for the shear pleasure of killing in the name of a none provable entity.

We are demanded to show faith. But by killing does that show faith?
To me it shows a lack of faith and a fear that will destroy everything we know.

The only way to show true faith to me is to get on with it and let loose the Dogs of War!

[Stealhead]

You have it wrong animals fight every single day just walk in your back yard and watch some ants for 30 minutes they are committed to warfare on a level that makes our human wars look like a school yard sissy fight.The other day an Osprey swooped down into my yard (or is it really his) and grabbed this hare and chowed down that Osprey must have been hungry to in deed to eat a hare fish being their preferred meal that hare lost his war and the osprey won his for that day at least.

Or watch two predators both just having awoken from hibernation and nearly starving if they must eat the same prey the battle that ensues between the two hunters is pure brutality victory in death in its most pure form.

We humans are the same way we are always fighting for our collective survival each side wants to be the one in charge wants to have the power but few get to wield it what you see in the world is just more of that struggle for power to take it or keep it has been like this for a long time nothing has really changed it means the end of nothing why should it when this has been happening for so long.Seems to me peole should start saying the end is near when everyone actually starts getting along that would be a strange thing and a sure sign of something.


We humans are a fairly peaceful lot when compared to many animals.

Humans are no better than any animal because we are animals just the same we just fight for far more stupid reasons we fail to use or intellect often enough.

The kind of people that make me truly laugh are the PETA types people for the ethical treatment of animals are they serious? Humans cant treat other humans in an ethical manner and they expect such treatment for animals.And I am not talking about being a hug everyone and not bathe for a week tantric drum circle either I mean simply not wanting to kill each other ethical.

[mookiemookie]

Well be careful what you wish for because the US credit rateing just got down graded http://www.cnbc.com/id/49037337 and this is funnier
Carney: Protests not directed at the United States

'This is not a case of protests directed at the United States writ large or at U.S. policy, this is in response to a video that is offensive to Muslims'

http://s4.freebeacon.com/thm/wfb/images/print-red.png (http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-not-directed-at-the-united-states/print/) http://s3.freebeacon.com/thm/wfb/images/email-red.png (http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-not-directed-at-the-united-states/email/)




Coming from someone who works in the business, I've never heard of Eagan Jones.

[Madox58]

You have it wrong.
They fight for survival. Nothing more.
They don't proclaim a God told them to do it.

We, as Humans, use excuses that the animal kingdom does not use.
To class us at that same lower level?
That's pretty 'I need an excuse' to me.

[Stealhead]

So does saying that it is going to end soon and kill everyone here or there like that will solve anything.


Do really think that anywhere near the majority of people in anyone place all agree?There are 1 million different points of view just in the US why is anyone else in the word any different?So we should kill all peoples of one group just because some of them are jerks?


Animals are on a higher level they lack the folly of intellect that was my entire point humans think that they are so much better yet we are violent and usually very rarely are we really truly fighting for our survival in the literal sense as whole not counting the ones having do the actual dirty work.If we all use excuses then what makes the ones that you have any better than the views that an Islamic extremist has?They want to kill everyone that does not agree with them and group many people that are not even involved you want to kill every person in the Middle East it seems so what exactly is different?If every single person living in the Middle East and every muslim was in with the extremists then it would long since be all over for us there are 1.6 billion of them and only 300 million Americans minus the muzzies of course it would be less and Israel would not be in the news because they'd have wiped them off the map.

[Tribesman]

Once a Marine always a Marine
Isn't that what that child murdering "patriot" from your oath keepers idiot militia link kept saying till he blew his own dumb head off?

[Skybird]

Comparing the past 14 billion years since the last Big Bang to a calender, the solar system formed up in early September, the first big animals walked on Earth in mid-Decembre, and the dinosaurs lasted from 28th to 30th of December before that meteor wiped them out. But the first hominide species which were capable of upright walking appeared not before 3 hours before New Year's Eve, and the history of human civilisation can be squeezed into the final 30 seconds before the fireworks go off.

Seen that way we maybe take the question of our survival maybe a bit too serious.

Christianity and it's god is just around 4-5 seconds old. Islam and Allah only roughly 3 seconds, compared to a whole year. And look how important their followers already take themselves, and what has come from that!

[Skybird]

A comment from Austria:

http://www.ortneronline.at/?p=18880

(German language)

[soopaman2]

There comes a time when locking down and saying NO is needed.
Your people did this or that?
NO FOOD OR AID!!

Don't want to play fair in tradeing?
NO TRADEING ANY MORE!

And on and on.
Lock the Gates, get ready for hard times, and watch the poor bastards die!

Once they are gone? Just walk in and take what you want.

If we don't take that approach sooner rather then latter?
They'll walk in and take what our Government is handing them on a Silver Platter!

We are heading to Civil War here in the U.S.A.
Of that I have no doubt!!

1. But if we let the oil monkeys be, and cut them off, then Russia and China will move in. Kinda like that multi billion dollar mineral field in Afghanistan that we found, but China bought.

Either that or OPEC will cut production to the point of driving barrel proces to the roof, the speculators will love it, but Joe Blow will suffer.

It is not aid, they are simply ineffective bribes.
I agree with the sentiment, just explaining why our government will never do it.

2. Yeah China. They need us more than we need them. Well that depends on if you are a citizen or a corporation, and we know who the government would rather serve.. It sure is not Joe Blow.

3. Yeah. But the moneyed interest will lobby to cut funding on oiling the hinges of said gate, so it cannot be closed anymore. (Metaphors rocks, I feel so smart:rock:)

Don't take this post the wrong way, I agree, I am just not as confident in the government, and a good majority of the mouth-breathers as you are.

As for the civil war.

I always wonder how many National Guardsmen would be able to fire a tank gun on starving civilians. Alot of people think they would, I think alot would desert.

Our civil war would be similar to Syria.

The people would lose and we will become an Orwellian state. The feds have plenty of tanks and bullets, after all, it is the only thing we still make in America.

[mookiemookie]

after all, it is the only thing we still make in America.

...and food and drugs and produce and airplanes and computers and software and chemicals and cars and machinery....

[soopaman2]

...and food and drugs and produce and airplanes and computers and software and chemicals and cars and machinery....


Which can all double for instruments of war.:salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

Which can all double for instruments of war.:salute:

So can a pencil. Does that make a Dixon Ticonderoga factory a defense assembly plant?

[Stealhead]

I think that National Guardsmen would not desert because there is not going to be a civil war nor any revolution.Things in this country are no where near bad enough and they are not going to get that bad any time soon.The problems we have are solvable without resorting to such things.

[Tribesman]

Things in this country are no where near bad enough and they are not going to get that bad any time soon.
Get with the program.
You have been conned by the lamestream media
Feed from the media trough of truth on the upcoming revolution/disaster/salvation/ad break.
http://www.theblaze.com/
http://www.infowars.com/
Be afraid, be very afraid....and please support our sponsors

[1480]

I'd say bomb them back to the stone age but.......
Spending billions to set them back a couple months is not working as it is.
:nope:


:har::har::har::har::har::har:

I shot beer through my nose. Thanks P

[soopaman2]

So can a pencil. Does that make a Dixon Ticonderoga factory a defense assembly plant?

I dunno. 19 Saudis gave us 2 decade long wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, so using our governments common sense, then yes, bomb that pencil factory to hell.

Take a drive through the rust belt sometime. Then tell me how much we make still.

Where do you buy those happy Bob Ross glasses, happy little trees everywhere.

[1480]

1. But if we let the oil monkeys be, and cut them off, then Russia and China will move in. Kinda like that multi billion dollar mineral field in Afghanistan that we found, but China bought.

Either that or OPEC will cut production to the point of driving barrel proces to the roof, the speculators will love it, but Joe Blow will suffer.

It is not aid, they are simply ineffective bribes.
I agree with the sentiment, just explaining why our government will never do it.

2. Yeah China. They need us more than we need them. Well that depends on if you are a citizen or a corporation, and we know who the government would rather serve.. It sure is not Joe Blow.

3. Yeah. But the moneyed interest will lobby to cut funding on oiling the hinges of said gate, so it cannot be closed anymore. (Metaphors rocks, I feel so smart:rock:)

Don't take this post the wrong way, I agree, I am just not as confident in the government, and a good majority of the mouth-breathers as you are.

As for the civil war.

I always wonder how many National Guardsmen would be able to fire a tank gun on starving civilians. Alot of people think they would, I think alot would desert.

Our civil war would be similar to Syria.

The people would lose and we will become an Orwellian state. The feds have plenty of tanks and bullets, after all, it is the only thing we still make in America.

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.

[Tribesman]

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.

If you got 1000 menbers of your armed forces who have all taken the same oath you would get 1000 different interpretations of what the constitution actually means, so thinking they are all supposed to feel the same as you is simply deluded.
Yubbas "oath keepers" being a prime example of a variety of idiots and what they seem to think the constitution means.

[mookiemookie]

http://i.qkme.me/3qxksb.jpg

[1480]

http://i.qkme.me/3qxksb.jpg


Barring some one from entering is not a breach of the first amendment. Civil rights act, you have a case.


This is not about a movie, this was a deliberate attack which was planned. Yet, this administration was really proud of promoting democracy during the arab spring. O bee-wan-pinochio, can never admit guilt or that he made the wrong choice.

[1480]

If you got 1000 menbers of your armed forces who have all taken the same oath you would get 1000 different interpretations of what the constitution actually means, so thinking they are all supposed to feel the same as you is simply deluded.
Yubbas "oath keepers" being a prime example of a variety of idiots and what they seem to think the constitution means.


My job is not to interpret, its to follow and defend it. I do not agree with abortion, but I will defend a person's right to have access to have it done.

I know a lot of people in the service that feel the same way.

The POTUS is the chief executive officer. Other then his responsibilities as CinC, he is the one to follow and make sure his administration does also.

Yet czars and executives orders are churned out constantly to circumvent the constitution.

So, before you paint me with a brush that questions my sanity, have facts in hand. If you really from Ireland, you can only lend an opinion. As an apologist for all that is not moderate and conservative, I enjoy sparring with you until you bring it to a personal level. Attack the premise not the messenger.

[eddie]

So you are saying that with more them 1.5 million people in the US Miltary, that you speak for them all, and you all are ready to physically remove this President from office? Why don't you run that by the Secret Service and let us know how that works out for you,LOL

Hell, run it by your CG and see how that works too!:D

[Tribesman]

My job is not to interpret, its to follow and defend it.
If any 1000 people can all think it means very different things then what exactly are they defending?

I know a lot of people in the service that feel the same way.

Explain this then..... Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration.

........ I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same.
Neither line makes sense and neither can be squared with your latest statement.

Yet czars and executives orders are churned out constantly to circumvent the constitution.

"czars" and executive orders are nothing new, why have you not called for revolution since you was a kid and how did you manage to take an oath under previous administrations which were doing exactly the same?

So, before you paint me with a brush that questions my sanity, have facts in hand.
The brush paints the "oath keepers" with the label of insanity, are you one of those?
If so any of their "promotional" videos or press conferences or websites provide ample evidence of their level of sanity.
Unless you are one of those fruitcakes then the question doesn't arise, though it does raise the issue of the wisdom in making such statements about "not one member" when many members who actually hold such views are demonstrably nuts.

Would you like some funny "oath keepers" links? Yubbas child murdering ex marine is quite a good one when its oath keepers and border partriots do their "duty" with Occupy Wall Street.
its got a nice take on citizens immigrants first amendment second amendment then gets really funny when they get into silver dollars.

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19600879


Sir Salman Rushdie has said he does not think his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses would be published today because of a climate of "fear and nervousness".
(...)
"A book which was critical of Islam would be difficult to be published now," he told the BBC's Will Gompertz.

He said the only way to solve the issue was for publishers to "be braver".
"The only way of living in a free society is to feel that you have the right to say and do stuff," he said.
(...)
The 65-year-old writer lived in hiding for many years after Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling for his execution.
(...)
"If you look at the way in which free expression is being attacked by religious extremism, the things of which these people are accused is always the same - it's blasphemy, heresy, insult, offence - it's this medieval vocabulary."

"We're in a difficult place because there's a lot of fear and nervousness around."

He pointed out that, as recently as last week, Channel 4 had cancelled a screening of its documentary, Islam: The Untold Story, following security threats.

"The fact a documentary about Islam can be pulled because someone is worried about the consequences is an indication of that," he said.


What's to add to that? The german foreign minstry has banned Terry Jones from entering Germany, who was invited by an Islam-critical organisation to attend a podium discussion where they planned to invite Muslim representatives as well. While that hardly is a loss, I cannot accept considerations by major parts of the CDU to legally forbid "at all cost" the screening of the film in Germany. Opposition to such a legal ban comes - from the SPD and the Greens. I recall times when one would have expected it to be exactly the other way around. Anyhow, law experts say such a ban is hard to be realised. Which will not stop our highly corrupt adminstration to nevertheless try to find some "workaround". Merkel practically lives by bypassing parliament and eroding legal bases opposing her wanted policies. Merkelianism is about right this art.

[Tribesman]

The german foreign minstry has banned Terry Jones from entering Germany
Is that Jones the dumb bigoted fraudster?

who was invited by an Islam-critical organisation
You mean the way out far right nazi freaks from Pro who even your friend Thilo sued for associating his name with their "work".
You run into this problem lots don't you Skybird, associating with neo nazi bigots just because they hate muslims as much as you do.
Do yourself a favour and head to Rouhs website, there is a nice collection of hitler youth marching songs for only 11 euros, should get you in the mood for his film show

[Hottentot]

Is that Jones the dumb bigoted fraudster

For a moment there I was thinking it referred to the Monty Python actor. The horror, the horror...:o

[Tribesman]

For a moment there I was thinking it referred to the Monty Python actor. The horror, the horror...:o
Now thats someone who can get their message across with style.

[soopaman2]

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.

I left politics out for a reason. It is not about defending this administration, but who will the military side with. The corporate masters with all the money, or the starving citizen with nothing. You tell me? (Just look at OWS and the mass macing/tasering they got.)

Our fascism is a product of saint Ronnie and his trickle down theory that has eroded the middle class...

Let an actor invent economic policy, yeah smart...

See why I left politics out?

Would you fire on me if I am starving, and protesting against fascist policies that transcend partisan politics? I do not think you personally would, but there are many more who would.

The whole system is broken, and your guy sucks just as much as mine.

Thank you for your service, and I commend your passion to defend the little guy, and the constitution as it was written.:salute:

Edit: I agree a revolution is brewing, and it will cause a ripple thoughout the world economically and stability wise.

I love my country, otherwise I wouldn't be so passionate about saving it.

[Platapus]

Normally, I don't respond to idiots posting on GT. But to read the following from a member of the military disgusts me. The military sure has changed, and for the worst if this is representative of the military.

Fortunately, I work with far too many professional military members not to believe any of this.

Every member of the military that I work with supports the current, or any, administration. Once the decision is made, through democratic means, on who is the Commander in Chief, that person IS the CinC and the military is there to implement the policies of our civilian leadership. That's what it means to be an American military member.

We can all have our personal opinions concerning our choice of elected officials, but as professionals, we, in the military, support who ever is elected to the position. I use the term "we"even though I am retired, I continue to serve supporting my nation as a civilian.

1480, perhaps you need to go back and learn what it means to be a professional.

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.


He got to go, one way or another You have the balls to write crap like this about the President while you are serving?

I have never written this about any Subsim member, but you disgust me and I am embarrassed that you would be associated with the military I served in and supported for over 30 years.

[soopaman2]

Normally, I don't respond to idiots posting on GT. But to read the following from a member of the military disgusts me. The military sure has changed, and for the worst if this is representative of the military.

Fortunately, I work with far too many professional military members not to believe any of this.

Every member of the military that I work with supports the current, or any, administration. Once the decision is made, through democratic means, on who is the Commander in Chief, that person IS the CinC and the military is there to implement the policies of our civilian leadership. That's what it means to be an American military member.

We can all have our personal opinions concerning our choice of elected officials, but as professionals, we, in the military, support who ever is elected to the position. I use the term "we"even though I am retired, I continue to serve supporting my nation as a civilian.

1480, perhaps you need to go back and learn what it means to be a professional.




You have the balls to write crap like this about the President while you are serving?

I have never written this about any Subsim member, but you disgust me and I am embarrassed that you would be associated with the military I served in and supported for over 30 years.

Thank you sir. :salute:

Not only for serving but showing what it means to serve.

You think those guys storming Normandy cared that a democrat was in charge? Nope. Just that hundreds of millions of lives depended on them.

The guys in Operation Desert Storm didn't care that a Republican was in office, just that a country needed liberating.

Didn't some military guy just recently get in trouble for twittering (sorry facebook, same crap) nasty comments about the CinC? Yeah He did.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/25/us/marine-obama/index.html

An other-than-honorable discharge is given to a Marine who commits a "serious offense" that significantly differs from conduct expected of a Marine, the Corps said.
A statement from the Marines said it approved the findings of a military board, which in March recommended the discharge.
The board found Stein violated rules limiting political conduct by service members.

:hmmm:

He stated he would refuse to follow President Obamas orders too. Just saying.

[Stealhead]

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.


I highly recommend that you refer to the UCMJ because you are more or less in violation of a few articles. I was in twelve years USAF SSGT just giving you some advice.Say that type of thing around the wrong person and you will be "standing tall before the man" (your commanding officer).You choose to follow one part of the oath but not others interesting.My advice if you really feel the way that you claim you should leave the military.

[mapuc]

Back on track

Just saw a broadcast from the Middle East, which was about this muhammed case, on Danish tv2news.

In an interview an Egyptian woman said, that this hatred, that more Muslims shows in several rally around the Middle East is not against the U.S. but against their policy in the Middle East.

Markus

[Skybird]

Yes, they do not pull the cat's tail. They just hold it tight.

:doh:

[1480]

So you are saying that with more them 1.5 million people in the US Miltary, that you speak for them all, and you all are ready to physically remove this President from office? Why don't you run that by the Secret Service and let us know how that works out for you,LOL

Hell, run it by your CG and see how that works too!:D

Yes, you are absolutely right. I do not know what every one of them is thinking, can tell you this much: they will not fire upon fellow Americans unless defending themselves.

Same SS that demand discounts with Brazilian prostitutes and stiffs them when they do not...class organization beyond reproach.

How about HS, the supervisory ranks cannot keep their hands out of the pants of their subordinates. But its kind of cute when its the females instigating the sexual harassment...

Oh yes, a sane administration that is looking out for the best interests of the people they serve.... yet, I am the bad guy....

Stated an opinion of this current administration, never called for armed insurrection.

[eddie]

I will disagree. Not one member of our armed forces would defend this administration. If this prolapsed rectum gets another term, I see a revolution calling. I have taken an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, I take it deadly serious, and I know our men and women who have taken the same oath feel the same. The rectal duct has done nothing but p!ss on it. He got to go, one way or another.

"He got to go, one way or another" Looks like a threat, outside of saying something stupid like this, I really don't care what you think of him. It only means something to you and your fellow militia friends.

[Stealhead]

Like I said before you need to check out the UCMJ it does not matter if it is your "opinion" you can not even say that you wont comply while orders it does not matter if it comes from an NCO an officer the SeCDef or the security of what ever branch you are a member of.In theory every single order you receive comes from the CiC.

And to say that you would not obey an order from the president if it violated his oath of office or the Constitution is nonsense because if such a thing ever occurred the person would be removed from office and would not be the CiC. Furthermore you must have missed the part of the oath you took that says "I will obey all lawful orders.... better be very sure that any order that you refuse is unlawful.

No revolution is going to happen in the US and even if one did 99% would be on the side of the US government I can assure of that screwed up as it is far better than any alternative that a bunch of bored militia members and a bunch of white supremacists those are the only two groups that would really try to do anything.Nothing but a bunch of people blaming problems of their own doing on others yeah that type of person would create an outstanding government.



The hookers where in Columbia and most if not all of the secret service guys had been around for some time before Obama was in office.

Nice making fun of Homeland Security you just insulted every member of the Coast Guard which they are a part of.Again HS was created before the current administration so the mess ups where around before that.

[Tribesman]

Nice making fun of Homeland Security you just insulted every member of the Coast Guard which they are a part of.
He topped that already, his pathetic attempt on the Brazil:hmmm:(Columbia) story manages to insult the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Airforce. though clearly he is insulting the Army most as there were more from that service involved with the prostitutes than the other 3 branches combined.

Oh yes, a sane administration that is looking out for the best interests of the people they serve.... yet, I am the bad guy....


If you are able to show they are insane do so, however if you are one of those "oath keepers" its easier to show that you are as they do some real crazy conspiracy rants where they end up frothing at the mouth.
So, are you one of those "oath keepers"?

Stated an opinion of this current administration, never called for armed insurrection.
He got to go, one way or another.
List all possible ways to make him go then try and repeat your denial without people laughing at it.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I do not know what every one of them is thinking, can tell you this much: they will not fire upon fellow Americans unless defending themselves.
What a State Kent was in

[joegrundman]

this thread seemed to be about something different on page 1. So..not sure if this goes here now it's turned into 1480's weird fantasy zone, but here I offer a very interesting opinion on the ME riots and US policy by the former Pakistani Ambassador to the US

http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=9253

The attacks on U.S. diplomatic missions this week—beginning in Egypt and Libya, and moving to Yemen and other Muslim countries—came under cover of riots against an obscure online video insulting Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. But the mob violence and assaults should be seen for what they really are: an effort by Islamists to garner support and mobilize their base by exacerbating anti-Western sentiments.

[Tribesman]

Interesting piece joegrundman
its quite routine for these "terrible insults" to get practicly no actual initial reaction(though often the initial reaction they get is "is that it? that was crap. is that as far as your intellect reaches?") however like anywhere in the world once you get a knobhead with a loudspeaker or a website and he can get people riled up and believing almost anything.
I think the funniest example was over "insulting" cartoons where the knobheads didn't get enough of a reaction so went on a tour to tell people how outrageously "insulting" the cartoons were then added some other cartoons themselves for people to be outraged about as they were not getting enough outrage with the cartoons they said they were protesting about.
If a brainless mob actually worked rationally then in that particular case it would have been attacking the people doing the tour trying to get them outraged.

[Hottentot]

Kid holding a protest sign (http://www.news.com.au/national/probe-into-boy-holding-beheading-sign/story-fncynjr2-1226475238920) seems to be the latest shocking news.

Not that I wouldn't find it wrong, but I find it equally funny how the Finnish media was quick to condemn this, yet no one sees a problem with our own children singing in school: "Our bluecross-flag, we swear to you, to live and die for you, is our greatest will."

[Onkel Neal]

A French magazine ridiculed the Prophet Mohammad on Wednesday by portraying him naked in cartoons, threatening to fuel the anger of Muslims around the world who are already incensed by a film depicting him as a womanizing buffoon.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-protests-france-idUSBRE88I0BU20120919

:up: Freedom of the press vs religous intolerance (or something). Gotta say I like this one, gutsy call. What if this became viral, like a meme? How long can the Islamanuts keep stomping and burning?:hmm2: Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case? :)

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer3/2012/09/19/4170207/41702010100098408270no.jpg

[August]

Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case?

That is a darn good question.

[Tribesman]

Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case?
Sorry, you sound a bit like skybird talking about the same satirical publication last November.

That is a darn good question.

No it isn't, you will find that people are usually knocking christians not christianity and the same people will knock muslims not islam.

[Skybird]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-protests-france-idUSBRE88I0BU20120919

:up: Freedom of the press vs religous intolerance (or something). Gotta say I like this one, gutsy call. What if this became viral, like a meme? How long can the Islamanuts keep stomping and burning?:hmm2: Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case? :)

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer3/2012/09/19/4170207/41702010100098408270no.jpg
I cannot imagine that you are talking about me. :smug:

Good move by the French paper. In Germany, the government mulls a legal ban to show the movie.

All papers in the West should have an international mock-Muhammad day at least once a year. At the UN they could hold laughing lessons on that date as well. Muhahahamamamad! :haha:

[mookiemookie]

Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case? :)


I guess you're not looking in the right places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day

And this from the Onion - (Warning, brutal satire and really dirty image, but one of the best commentaries on this whole situation): http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

[August]

And this from the Onion - (Warning, brutal satire and really dirty image, but one of the best commentaries on this whole situation): http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

A single drawing campaign from over 2 years ago and an image insulting every major religion EXCEPT Islam somehow proves anything?

[Tribesman]

Good move by the French paper. In Germany, the government mulls a legal ban to show the movie.

Errrrrr..in France the governnment is restricting protests against the paper, in Germany the government is mulling how to deal with the neo-nazi scum who want to run a movie event for bigots in Berlin.
The devil as always is in the detail and as usual it isn't what Skybird portrays it as.

[Tribesman]

An image insulting every major religion EXCEPT Islam somehow proves anything?
It proves you have a problem understanding things:rotfl2:
Oh you edited.
A single drawing campaign from over 2 years ago and an image insulting every major religion EXCEPT Islam somehow proves anything?
Follow the story, there is a topic from last november dealing with the same French paper doing the same thing then , they have been doing it for years. They also run the Danish cartoons which of course lots of places have run again this week.
its amazing how you can complain about things not happening which are not only happening but are well publiced as happening

[soopaman2]

I guess you're not looking in the right places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day

And this from the Onion - (Warning, brutal satire and really dirty image, but one of the best commentaries on this whole situation): http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/


This site keeps track of its personal bounty. I warn you, extremely NSFW, and highly offensive to sensitive folks.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day

[mookiemookie]

A single drawing campaign from over 2 years ago It's become a yearly event. Pakistan shut down Twitter this year over it.

and an image insulting every major religion EXCEPT Islam somehow proves anything?

Wow...that one went really over your head. Think about the headline. Now think about what Muslims are upset about. Then look back at the headline. You see what they're saying there?

[August]

It's become a yearly event. Pakistan shut down Twitter this year over it.



Wow...that one went really over your head. Think about the headline. Now think about what Muslims are upset about. Then look back at the headline. You see what they're saying there?

I see what they're saying but they only make their point by insulting other religions. That's like murdering a random person to prove the cops are incompetent. If anything it proves Neals point even more.

[mookiemookie]

I see what they're saying but they only make their point by insulting other religions. That's like murdering a random person to prove the cops are incompetent. If anything it proves Neals point even more.

No, it's illustrating in clear terms how different the other religions of the world are in comparison to Islam. It's not an international incident. No riots. No murders. No death threats. And it's on a major internet satire site that pokes fun at Christianity regularly.

[Skybird]

German satire magazine TITANIC has announced they too want a share of the pie and will come out next week with a magazine cover showing the ex-first lady Bettina Wulf (who currently is engaged in sort of a self-deconstruction process over here) laying in the arms of Muhammad. The editor said, they want to warn of more badly made Islam-diatribes, especially when now downgraded B-class ex-VIPs try to resharpen their profile by directing such movies. :D

Titanic is the mag that showed the Pope "leaking" some weeks ago.

More and more politicians from the CDU and CSU meanwhile speak out in favor of principally banning criticism of religions and for that limiting free speech. Factually, EU laws already allow legal persecution by using the maneuver of calling criticism of religion "discrimination", according cases have been run in a couple of EU countries, all for voicing sober criticism of Islam. While Merkel said she can imagine prohibiting the display of that movie on the grounds of preventing disturbance of the public peace, a growing number of politicians want to see the showing of it banned in general. Calls for a stricter law against "blasphemy" win in volume and numbers. As if we do not already have that §166 in the penalty code.

[August]

No, it's illustrating in clear terms how different the other religions of the world are in comparison to Islam. It's not an international incident. No riots. No murders. No death threats. And it's on a major internet satire site that pokes fun at Christianity regularly.

I know exactly what their intent was Mookie. But like I said it's like someone slapping your wife in order to prove that you're a peaceful man.

[Onkel Neal]

I guess you're not looking in the right places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Draw_Mohammed_Day

And this from the Onion - (Warning, brutal satire and really dirty image, but one of the best commentaries on this whole situation): http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

Uh, onion did everything but mock Mohammed... makes my point.


A single drawing campaign from over 2 years ago and an image insulting every major religion EXCEPT Islam somehow proves anything?

yes, what he said.

[Tribesman]

I know exactly what their intent was Mookie. But like I said it's like someone slapping your wife in order to prove that you're a peaceful man.
clearly you don't as thats a worse attempt than ......

That's like murdering a random person to prove the cops are incompetent.

Face it you wrote.....
If anything it proves Neals point even more.
.....about an example that does exactly the opposite.

Uh, onion did everything but mock Mohammed... makes my point.

No the entire onion piece has only one purpose, and that is to do the thing you think it doesn't do.

[Skybird]

In some German newspapers, at least the occasional opinion pieces by editors since some time become increasingly impatient and outspoken about the double standards used when reporting and assessing the "discrimination" against Islam,. and the persecution and discrimination of Christians in Islamic countries. It just is so many lightyears apart. LIGHTYEARS.

An example by Die Welt, today (text is a clickable link, German language):

Alle fünf Minuten wird ein Christ getötet. Millionen von Muslimen werden derzeit angestachelt zu tödlichen Hasstiraden auf alles Westliche. Von der Verfolgung von 100 Millionen Christen in vielen islamischen Staaten spricht kein Mensch (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article109334415/Alle-fuenf-Minuten-wird-ein-Christ-getoetet.html)

[Onkel Neal]

In some German newspapers, at least the occasional opinion pieces by editors since some time become increasingly impatient and outspoken about the double standards used when reporting and assessing the "discrimination" against Islam,. and the persecution and discrimination of Christians in Islamic countries. It just is so many lightyears apart. LIGHTYEARS.



Yep, I agree. It's pathetic, how bold and outrageous some people are when trampling religous concepts that involve Christians, Jews, and Hindus, but they are as silent as mice when it comes to Islam. Scared, I think.

[Tribesman]

Yep, I agree. It's pathetic, how bold and outrageous some people are when trampling religous concepts that involve Christians, Jews, and Hindus, but they are as silent as mice when it comes to Islam. Scared, I think.
But since you clearly think that a satire on muslims is somehow about everone except the muslims how valid is that perpective you hold?

[August]

Yep, I agree. It's pathetic, how bold and outrageous some people are when trampling religous concepts that involve Christians, Jews, and Hindus, but they are as silent as mice when it comes to Islam. Scared, I think.


Exactly. They attempt to prove the violent tendencies of one religion by insulting a bunch of other religions and noting the lack of reaction. The moral seems to be that if you want respect for your religion you have to be willing to incite some fear. Get a bit jihadi as it were.

[mookiemookie]

But since you clearly think that a satire on muslims is somehow about everone except the muslims how valid is that perpective you hold?

I give up, man. That's the whole point but they refuse to see it either willingly or not.

Exactly. They attempt to prove the violent tendencies of one religion by insulting a bunch of other religions and noting the lack of reaction. The moral seems to be that if you want respect for your religion you have to be willing to incite some fear. Get a bit jihadi as it were.

No, the proper takeaway is "Look at how grounded all these other religions are - they can understand that a stupid drawing on the internet is just that and nothing to riot and murder over." The money quote is the last one in the article:

Though some members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were reportedly offended by the image, sources confirmed that upon seeing it, they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day.

Now if you're being willingly obtuse or not, I don't know what else to say. I guess the point is lost on you.

[August]

I give up, man. That's the whole point but they refuse to see it either willingly or not.

That's exactly what I think of you Mookie. You can't prove that person A will react in a particular way by insulting person B. All you prove is that you disrespect person B.

And make no mistake, that piece of pornographic filth that you linked to is an insult to every religion it portrays. The fact that the Onion is reduced to making it's point in that way only shows that they only respect the religion that is willing to get violent in order to protect itself against such insults.

[August]

Now if you're being willingly obtuse or not, I don't know what else to say. I guess the point is lost on you.

No the point is not lost Mookie. Quit trying to make this personal.

I reject their method of making their point. Are you too obtuse to understand that?

[mookiemookie]

And make no mistake, that piece of pornographic filth that you linked to is an insult to every religion it portrays. The fact that the Onion is reduced to making it's point in that way only shows that they only respect the religion that is willing to get violent in order to protect itself against such insults.

And the fact that you see this as an admiration of a religion that thinks it needs to "protect itself" from an irrelevant piece of pornographic filth on the internet means that you've lumped yourself in with the group of people that this piece is satirizing. No wonder you're so worked up.

[August]

And the fact that you see this as an admiration of a religion that thinks it needs to "protect itself" from an irrelevant piece of pornographic filth on the internet means that you've lumped yourself in with the group of people that this piece is satirizing. No wonder you're so worked up.

Still making with the insults and distortions eh Mookie?

Well I reject your inaccurate and clumsy attempt to avoid the point by associating me with Islamic terrorists and unlike you I personally wouldn't need to insult the beliefs of several billion people in order to make the point that another billion or so won't put up with it.

[Onkel Neal]

I give up, man. That's the whole point but they refuse to see it either willingly or not.



No, the proper takeaway is "Look at how grounded all these other religions are - they can understand that a stupid drawing on the internet is just that and nothing to riot and murder over." The money quote is the last one in the article:



Now if you're being willingly obtuse or not, I don't know what else to say. I guess the point is lost on you.


I totally don't understand. :dead: My point was, why don't anti-religous types take on Islam. You post the Onion: in this instance they do NOT take on Islam, they are bashing every other religion, to demonstrate that every other religion will shrug it off, which they do. But Onion does nothing to ridicule Islam... right? So where's the crude image of Mohammed on the Onion? Where's the satire, ridicule, or insult to prove they will treat Islam with the same disrespect as they other 4 religions in the article?

Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to prove here. :doh:

[August]

Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to prove here. :doh:

Watch it, he'll call you obtuse.

[Tribesman]

I give up, man. That's the whole point but they refuse to see it either willingly or not.

Its not a new thing. Warren Mitchell often complained that the people he was taking the piss out of for years somehow thought he was doing the opposite.

I totally don't understand. :dead: My point was, why don't anti-religous types take on Islam. You post the Onion: in this instance they do NOT take on Islam, they are bashing every other religion, to demonstrate that every other religion will shrug it off, which they do. But Onion does nothing to ridicule Islam... right?

The only religion that is ridiculed in that onion piece is Islam.
Its exactly like Mitchel as Alf Garnet, over the years he slags off just about every religion culture ethnicity viewpoint amd orientation apart from the white reactionary conservative bigot that is the actual target of all the satire.
That actual target is the only one he is slagging off at all, simple isn't it.

Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to prove here. :doh:
He already proved it, you still not seeing it is just further confirming the proof.
Satire often works like that.

[mookiemookie]

I totally don't understand. :dead: My point was, why don't anti-religous types take on Islam. You post the Onion: in this instance they do NOT take on Islam, they are bashing every other religion, to demonstrate that every other religion will shrug it off, which they do. But Onion does nothing to ridicule Islam... right? So where's the crude image of Mohammed on the Onion? Where's the satire, ridicule, or insult to prove they will treat Islam with the same disrespect as they other 4 religions in the article?

Seriously, I don't see what you're trying to prove here. :doh:

They are bashing Islam. That's the whole point of it. They put a horribly offensive picture on the internet and say "gee, would ya look at that, no one is going nuts and killing people over this. Funny, eh?" all the while looking pointedly in Islam's direction.


Its not a new thing. Warren Mitchell often complained that the people he was taking the piss out of for years somehow thought he was doing the opposite.

The only religion that is ridiculed in that onion piece is Islam.
Its exactly like Mitchel as Alf Garnet, over the years he slags off just about every religion culture ethnicity viewpoint amd orientation apart from the white reactionary conservative bigot that is the actual target of all the satire.
That actual target is the only one he is slagging off at all, simple isn't it.


Exactly. Just like how Archie Bunker wasn't about glorifying bigots. It was about poking fun at them.

[Hottentot]

Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case?

Not to take part in this fascinating interpretation of a picture and its meaning, but one take on the original question that sparked it: because the millions of internet people who knock down Christianity often are living in Christian Western countries.

They see Christians and Christianity in its various forms every day, heck, they grow up with it even if they are atheists. It's easy to ridicule and make fun of something you know. It's easy to be emotionally attached (positively or negatively) to something you know. They aren't that often bashing the Hindus or Buddhists either as far as I know.

Likewise my local newspaper doesn't publish satirical cartoons of the American politics or ridicule communism, because we are not living in America, nor ruled by a communistic government. People comment on what they consider relevant, and what is relevant is fundamentally linked to their own lives.

[August]

They are bashing Islam. That's the whole point of it. They put a horribly offensive picture on the internet and say "gee, would ya look at that, no one is going nuts and killing people over this. Funny, eh?" all the while looking pointedly in Islam's direction.

Then that is the weakest, most cowardly bashing of Islam that one could possibly imagine. You seriously think your "pointed look" will make an impression on people that already loathe you and want to see your head on a pole?

Any Islamist looking at that picture will think "See what happens when you don't defend your faith?" Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and Jews will look at this as yet another back handed insult against them, which is exactly what it is.

[joegrundman]

i think both sides in Oniongate have a point

the onion article and picture is ridiculing islam by demonstrating that it is only the muslims, out of all the religious communities on this mudball, that get in a murderous rage at the thought of anyone, anywhere, disrespecting their religion.

but the onion article is simultaneously demonstrating that it doesn't dare make a pornographic ridicule of islam, presumably out of the very fear of this murderous rage etc. etc.

well, the onion article is braver than most by even hinting that this is a problem.

this whole muslim thing that started in 1979 and went global in 2001, it ain't over yet.

[Tribesman]

Then that is the weakest, most cowardly bashing of Islam that one could possibly imagine.
Its one of the funniest and strongest, laughing at the idiots is the best bashing you can possibly do.

You seriously think your "pointed look" will make an impression on people that already loathe you and want to see your head on a pole?

You really don't get it at all.
Simple question to see if you can get a view on reality since you clearly seem to be failing to get any perspective on comedy, out of all those recent protests how many of the protesters would have had the faintest idea what it was they were actually protesting against?

Any Islamist looking at that picture will think "See what happens when you don't defend your faith?"
:rotfl2:

this whole muslim thing that started in 1979 and went global in 2001, it ain't over yet.
1979????why not 1879 or 1779, its nothing new.

[Onkel Neal]

i think both sides in Oniongate have a point

the onion article and picture is ridiculing islam by demonstrating that it is only the muslims, out of all the religious communities on this mudball, that get in a murderous rage at the thought of anyone, anywhere, disrespecting their religion.

but the onion article is simultaneously demonstrating that it doesn't dare make a pornographic ridicule of islam, presumably out of the very fear of this murderous rage etc. etc.

well, the onion article is braver than most by even hinting that this is a problem.



They are bashing Islam. That's the whole point of it. They put a horribly offensive picture on the internet and say "gee, would ya look at that, no one is going nuts and killing people over this. Funny, eh?" all the while looking pointedly in Islam's direction.



The Onion article is about the slightest "insult" I can imagine, if that's what you want to call it. Seriously, I doubt any islamic extremist will get angry over that, in fact, it will probably make him laugh. ""gee, would ya look at that, no one is going nuts and killing people over this"...

"that's right," thinks Hadji, "and you better not post anything offensive to my religion, or I'll go nuts". Feeling satisfied and not at all bothered by the Onion, he shrugs and returns to his hookah.

[Skybird]

I totally don't understand. :dead: My point was, why don't anti-religous types take on Islam. You post the Onion: in this instance they do NOT take on Islam, they are bashing every other religion, to demonstrate that every other religion will shrug it off, which they do. But Onion does nothing to ridicule Islam... right? So where's the crude image of Mohammed on the Onion? Where's the satire, ridicule, or insult to prove they will treat Islam with the same disrespect as they other 4 religions in the article?

You are falling to a logical fault there. If they would have included Muhammad in the orgy, the whole ironic point the following text is about, would have become pointless. Because they are about illustrating - and the text says that - that the other religions just shook their heads and moved on with their lives. Which Islam obviously does not, as we learn from reality.

That cartoon is a bit rude, but it illustrates their point. I do not see why it shoul,d be foibidden to post that. Even more when considering how easy pornography is available today even to minors, and how little respect is being shown for people when hurting them in their most immediate direct private sphere - the photos of Kate for example. Displaying somebody real naked in public and against his will - that is much more damaging than bringing sex and religion together in a cartoon.

So as usual I take the side of those asking why religion should be given a special status that it demands although it cannot offer anything to justify that special status. The Onion - in an especially disrespectful manner - illustrated that for Islam. And lacking taste and lacking respect was the best reply one should given on the matter. Of all the movies and cartoons plus stories of the present row, it has been the most potent so far. Only the Muhammad with a bomb as his head is better.

[Tribesman]

Seriously, I doubt any islamic extremist will get angry over that, in fact, it will probably make him laugh. ""gee, would ya look at that, no one is going nuts and killing people over this"...

They will, they probably won't even see it just like they don't see most other things they get "offended" by, but some ultra conservative fundamentalist will hear about it then make a speech about Onion taking the piss out of Islam and the mindless mob will simply go into outrage mode without the faintest idea what they are protesting for or against.

[Onkel Neal]

You are falling to a logical fault there. .


Sky, I guess this is where text discussion limits us; I understand the point of the article fully, I guess I just don't see it as very consequential. :) Sort of like getting the joke, but it's not really funny. And I am doing a terrible job communicating today.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I guess I may get a bloody nose for showing my neck on this topic... (I'll admit that I haven't read but about half of this thread.) but I want to get a couple of my thoughts out since they might be useful to someone.

As Americans, we are expected to be tolerant of intolerance. However, that very concept harms us in the end because everything is so grey and without clear lines when it comes to respecting some of our freedoms.

Though I have many faults and imperfections, I consider myself a Christian man, and the thought of killing in the name of God to be unthinkable. To me... killing in the name of any "god" is fanaticism. As a Christian man, I believe (and share) in service to others... and I believe in doing no harm. I do not force my convictions on others. (I think that even athiests can agree that service to others is useful to society and promotes law & order.)

On the other hand, I am not a pacifist. I believe in defending our constitution, our way of life, and our allies.

Hopefully someday, intellect will prevail over the chaotic hatred and nonsense and will evolve into a mutual cooperation that benefits everyone.

Otherwise, we will have to keep on living with that sickening feeling some of us have wondering, "Do I have enough ammunition in the house to defend my family if the madness comes here?"

[mookiemookie]

Sky, I guess this is where text discussion limits us; I understand the point of the article fully, I guess I just don't see it as very consequential. :) Sort of like getting the joke, but it's not really funny. And I am doing a terrible job communicating today.

The point is that it's a criticism of Islam. You said "Why are the millions of internet people who gleefully knock down Christianity at evey turn cowed and silent in this case?" I showed a case where that wasn't true. That's all, man. :D

[Skybird]

As Americans, we are expected to be tolerant of intolerance.

Wooot...???


Popper again, anyone...? :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Wooot...???


Popper again, anyone...? :D

@ Skybird, I don't have the slightest clue what you mean.

I was referring to freedoms of religion, press, and speech as allowed for in our constitution... meaning that if we expect those freedoms... we are required to allow those same freedoms in others.

The problem occurs when those freedoms result in physical harm to people... because the right to life is even more valuable.

[Tribesman]

Lehmann , its the paradox.
Unfortunately Sky gets it wrong by being the intolerant one to start with.

[Penguin]

Some people believe seem to believe that there is somehing like a right not to be offended. Nothing like this exists or should ever exist as it only puts limitations on free speech. How far should we go, anyway? Anything can offend anyone. A picture of clearcutting might offend some Animists.
If you mock political correctness (and we all on here love to do this :yep:), you can't call to use the same instruments in your favor when suddenly your very own believes are in the line of fire.
Keeping silent because of fear for repercussion only limits open discussion and the free exchange of ideas. Having censor scissors in your head is maybe even worse than a 'Verboten!' sign on the wall.

If folks can't take a joke about themselves or their believes, too bad for them. Maybe it's time to ask themselves if their believes are so weak that a picture or a joke can affect them. If you really believe in something with your heart and soul, why give a crap about what others say?
The funniest jokes about Turks come from the Turks themselves, Jews have the best jewish jokes and the best jokes about the Germans... - well they are told by foreigners :O:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Lehmann , its the paradox.
Unfortunately Sky gets it wrong by being the intolerant one to start with.

Thank you for the insight. It certainly seems accurate from what I've seen from him over time.

@ Penguin... Good post sir.

[Skybird]

@ Skybird, I don't have the slightest clue what you mean.

I was referring to freedoms of religion, press, and speech as allowed for in our constitution... meaning that if we expect those freedoms... we are required to allow those same freedoms in others.

The problem occurs when those freedoms result in physical harm to people... because the right to life is even more valuable.
I questioned the way you formulated - as if there were any kind of almost "obligation" that Americans must tolerate the intolerant. Where was that written down, then? ;)

Tolerance needs reciprocity, else it is suicidal. I had some clashed with Steve over Popper and the tolerance paradoxon, as he called that, you probably missed these ... shows... to that I referred.

http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7544

The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato. Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. ***8212; In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

I never understood, therefore, why an ideology that is so very much beyond doubt when it comes to its murderous nature, its inherent evil and barbarity, like Nazism, still enjoys tolerance and freedom in the US, while over 300 thousand US soldiers - your grandfathers - lost their lives and even more got wounded in a war aiming at containing its consequences. Those forefathers of yours must turn in their graves. And when then - like it occasionally happened - I get met by a comment like: I may disagree with you but I will fight to the death for your right to disagree with me, then I can only shake my head. That is a nice and cocky statement when the other opinion still enjoys the benefit of the doubt. But when it's world-destroying potential is evident and is proven by history, then tolerance must end - or gets wiped out well deserved. Some ideologies like Nazism and Islam, are that much beyond doubt and proven by history. And some actors, persons as well as states, are beyond doubt as well. These usually mark the red lines where my tolerance has come to a total end and where I do not accept any more compromise being tried.

In other words: that is the point beyond which I am totally and completely intolerant. And that is good, and that is the correct choice from the perspective of reason, and I do not intend to ever apologize for being intolerant when standing at this red line.

[mookiemookie]

http://i.imgur.com/J7WJf.jpg