Increase the view range of my lookouts?

[Beardmoresam]

I've managed to find the file to increase the horizon from a max 8km away to a more realistic 20km. The problem I now face is how do I get my lookouts to see the ships that are clearly lurking in the distance?

With the new horizon, I was hoping that expert lookouts would spot smoke and stacks as they came over the horizon and the more rookie lookouts would spot the ships as bigger bits, such as towers (on warships) or the bridge starts to come up and over the horizon.

Does anyone know how to do this? I have had a look at the Sensors.dat file but none of it seems to make much sense.

Thanks.

-Edit- Does anyone have the Tweak Files for SH4, particularly scene, any concerning render distance of ships and finally any concerning the players sub and sensors. Thanks.

[TorpX]

I haven't the foggiest idea how to do it, but RFB already has a 10 nm horizon, and I'm guessing the other mega-mods do as well.

[Beardmoresam]

I did a range test with the new horizon setting. It allowed me to see the ship all the way up to 9nm at which point it disappeared. All that increasing the horizon did was allow me to see those ships the crew normally can but I can't... up until that 9nm rendering point where they cease to exist.

All in all, I basically need to work out how to increase the render distance on ships up to the 20km mark. What that is in nm I can't remember off of the top of my head. Once that is done, I can look into messing with sensors.

So... Anyone know where I can find the files for render distance? Or is that hard-coded into the game?

Thanks.

[TorpX]

20 km = ~10 nmiles.

But why go to all this trouble when it has already been done?

[Armistead]

20 km = ~10 nmiles.

But why go to all this trouble when it has already been done?


Yep, most megamods have long fixed this, but if someone wants to try something different, best to at least DL a few mega mods and compare settings.

Smoke isn't a hard object, so crews won't see it, a few have tried to work on this, but no results that I know of.

The env. settings also connect to the sensors and some come have great impact on sensors/visuals, mega mods tweak both to get the desired result.

[Webster]

20 km = ~10 nmiles.

But why go to all this trouble when it has already been done?


because maybe he would like to have it in the stock game, not everyone likes to just use the mega mods so they want more options to customise the game thier own way

[Beardmoresam]

I see your guys points... but...

I'm using TMO and RSRDC...

Even with TMO the view distance is in fact very reduced from reality. I live in a harbor and do sail. From my house and even when out on the water at no more than 2 feet above sea level, I can clearly see the cliffs the other side of Hastings, which lie at 17 or more miles away (unless of course it is a bad day, which even then it is possible to see merchant shipping in the English channel). So when I can't see traffic at 8 miles in game (even when my crew can) with TMO and RSRDC, I recon a little tweaking is required. Of course this makes the enemy aircraft a little more deadly but hey, having been in aviation my self, I recon it's quite realistic.

All in all, I do appreciate the input from super mods and how it has been done before but I am looking for my own personal set up that meets my expectations and so I am doing something about it.

If all goes well and a true "over the horizon" sighting is possible as in reality, I'll release the changes to anyone interested and hopefully we can all build a few more reefs :arrgh!:

All said, I do need to test RFB more lol

With that said, if anyone is willing to help, I thoroughly appreciate it, if not, well you know where you can go.

-Edit- And of course it makes a nice addition to stock game players as webster quite rightly mentioned.

[Armistead]

Something sounds strange, I can always see much further than my crew with TMO, the crews visuals are limited, mine aren't. I've never had my crew in any version of TMO call out visuals at 8nms, although I can see that far myself under perfect weather conditions. I somewhat corrected this by increasing the crews visuals and tweaking some env. settings.

The other issue regarding realism is both the height of the object and the height from which you're viewing it, obvious the higher both are the further you can see over the horizon. I guess if we knew the height of the top lookout, average a height for a ship mast, we could do the math, but my guess it's about 9nms. Again, the other issue is the crew can't see smoke, but you can.

Are you running any other mods, just seems strange to me unless you got it backwards, you can see when your crew cannot.

[Beardmoresam]

I estimate that the height from the top of the shears of the boat is about 20 to 30ft based on periscope depth (about 60) minus draft when surfaced (about 20) minus periscope height (about another 15 to 20 ft) leaving about 20 to 30 ft (or 7 to 10m in metric) give or take a few.

Based on the above figures and some formulas regarding view distance and the horizon, I have deduced the following: At 10m above sea level (figure roughly worked out above), if a maru with a 90ft mast (30m) comes a long, I should see the tip of the mast come over the horizon at 33km (30 if you don't consider atmospheric refraction). I imagine it would take a fair few more km before the stacks show up, but this is just an example. With that in mind, imagine if my view point was a raised periscope on the surface rather than hanging off the shears. that would probably add a few km.

For those wondering; 30km = 16.2nm roughly.

Those of you who don't trust the numbers, look it up. I used the formula:
Distance = 3.86 ((Square root 10) + (Square Root 30))

The formula is accurate to within 1%, the only time the radius of the earth needs to be more precise is when dealing with high altitude objects (I.E. Satellites) in which case the true and exact formula (ignoring the fact that the earth isn't an exact sphere) is:
D = Square Root of 2Rh.
R being the radius of the earth (approx. 6 371 000m) and h being the height of the observing object.

I also calculated the distance to the horizon to be about 21km at 10m above sea level, not including atmospheric refraction. (so don't tell me that 20km isn't realistic).


My personal tests, even with horizon set to 11nm (20km) I have noticed that the target De-renders at about 9nm, long before she is even slightly hull under the horizon. (With TMO) I don't know how far the crew can initially sight the target as I started with my target vessel quite close to me (I used a stationary freighter outside pearl) but they held the sighting till the full 11nm (as the new horizon setting should have allowed).

I hope that solves any discussion regarding the matter, now, if anyone wants to help me correct this slight bug, I would more than appreciate any help and I will be resuming work on it in 3 weeks when I come back from a nice long holiday:Kaleun_Cheers:.

Thanks, Beardmoresam.

-EDIT- In response to the non hard smoke issue, it might be possible to add a transparent extension to the stacks so that whilst invisible to the human players, the sub lookouts will still detect it. I've not ventured into ship models though so someone with more experience will have to correct me on this.

[Armistead]

Well, the bigger problem is what your sub AI can see, again, I'm confused when you say your crew can see ships you can't, I think for most of us that problem is reversed, we can see what the crew cannot. Take this SS for instance, I have cams off here, but this was chasing a Yamato. The crew couldn't see it, couldn't lock and it often got out of radar range, but I could barely see it catching up during zig legs. I did ping it for range, roughly 13nms here. Also I'm using maxoptics mod here, so you can see better, not sure how it would've rendered without maxoptics, but probably would've still seen it.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2010-10-12_013129_204.jpg

Again, the bigger issue to me is smoke cannot be seen by the AI.

The other issue regarding LOS is the width of the object your viewing vs. the magnification of binocs, etc... In reality, you would probably see the smoke without being able to see the mast itself even if in LOS. Sort of like holding a toothpick in front of your face, you can see it well, move it 100 yards away, you can't see it, even though you have a clear line of sight. I don't recall the math formula, but take the above math and factor in the magnification level and width of viewing object.


Many have dealt and played with this issue before, but seems ending modders just settle for a balance due to limited code in a flat gaming world.. OTC mod takes a different approach, but does give you probably the best world view.

[Beardmoresam]

I have noticed in the past that the crew can't spot things I clearly can, I too use max optics, I can't get OTC to work for me. I made this thread for this very reason, too look into it, but we simply got tied down in the discussion on distance to the horizon. Now with that aside, I agree with your point about masts and I certainly don't expect to see a mast at 30km, but I just want to be able to simulate it being there, as a result, the wider parts, such as funnels and flags will be made visible at accurate ranges, which even then will be limited as far as resolution simply because in real life you don't have pixels limiting you where as in SH4 you do.

So my priorities are as follows:
-Ship render distance
-Sort out the crew short sightedness.
-Smoke detection by lookouts

-Edit- I have no ****ing clue how I'm going to do it so any help is as always much appreciated.

[Tempest555]

I played adding the smoke texture to SH3 ships-if you want no smoke for a specific ship you go into the SIM file (obj_Funnel) and delete number below-but then that ship will NEVER give smoke. You'll see the number 0x91344d00c078d76d which you need to give to a vessel to get smoke.

SIM file references smoke texture OR you can make the smoke less apparent by MAYBE doing something to the texture. But all the vessels probably reference the same texture.
_____________________
You know-I guess back then (40's) vessels burned dirtier-and there is a reason why Japanese vessels burned dirty coming from Indonesia-they burned (and exploded more violently) due to burning unrefined bunker fuel from the Java oilfields. Yeah they captured the oilfields-but the Dutch did a pretty good job of sabotaging refining equipment-and nearly all refineries were in Japan and most refining aircraft and gasoline production got priority. And not all oil is the same - the cracking process is different from oil from California as say Venezuela (Lot of sulfer in that oil) Long story on that- the Japanese had a really screwed up oil problem-both in what they were using and in supply. All the oil was in Indonesia-but the bulk of the refining was in Japan-do you know how many ships (tankers are wasted shipping that unrefined oil BACK to Japan to refine when you have hardly any refineries where you pump it out of the ground? Ships and manpower are being wasted and fuel is being wasted transporting oil.
Nowadays-I live in Hawaii I don't see a lot of ships smoke I guess because they mostly use diesel and this exhaust gets 'scrubbed' before it's expelled. You do see smoke but only when they speed up. Back in the early 1990's I actually saw a naval convoy rounding Diamond Head heading for Pearl Harbor (then onward to the first Gulf War). It was just lke the movies-it was an early Saturday morning and everyone on the beach just looked at this convoy of grey ships-we never saw anything like that. The convoy couldn't have been more then 5 miles offshore-the strange thing was-there was hardly any smoke. SH4 ships smoke like the photos from WWI (and they burned coal).

[Beardmoresam]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I'm not looking to remove the smoke but instead have the lookouts be able to view the smoke. With my non existant knowledge of 3D modelling and Sensors in SH4, I thought perhaps if a transparent cylinder (to present max. surface area at all angles) that ran as high as the smoke trail (if possible retracted as smoke is reduced [Linked to engine settings perhaps?]) then a hard object, not seen by the player but perfectly detected by the lookouts would be possible. But that's just a random idea and I have no clue if it is even slightly feasible as I have no experience with the matter. I may try to pester a few more experience modders out there to point me in the right direction.

If anyone has the know how, I'm happy to do the laborious side of it, I just need the guidance.

As always, any help is much appreciated.

[Armistead]

I've asked about the smoke before, I don't know that it's possible to make it a hard object in itself, a few good modders have looked into it with no results. The other issue is the resources it would take, how much, who could say, but it could get really laggy with larger convoys, it would be like doubling ships.

The bigger issue was how env effected my viewing, under clear skies, no fog, this is what I viewed.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2012-07-18_140717_674.jpg

I reset weather within seconds, Control-N, still no fog, but partially cloudy, thuse env rendered different, reflections, horizon, water, etc...and thus the results, you could see much better.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2012-07-18_140734_174.jpg



Here I could see smoke on the horizon at 11.2 miles, no mast, ship was a Nagaru. This is after I reset weather, no way I would've seen it before. Under certain env. conditions and your video card and settings, visuals are greatly effected.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2012-07-18_141658_112.jpg

Again, I'm still confused when you say you want the crew to see what you cannot, realistically it should be about the same. The issue is the same with sonar, you can hear to the game limits, the crew cannot.

[Beardmoresam]

There are occasions when the crew can see things I simply can't, I think it is weather based. Also my sonar operator can hear things but when I check the bearing to have a listen for my self, I hear no ships... just the usual sea noise.

Sonar aside, it is true that more often than not the crew can be quite blind, but on the odd occasion this is reversed.

About smoke, I'm not talking about making the smoke it's self a hard object, instead, have a single, invisible shaft sticking out the top of the boat to a decent height. No textures or collisions means very little cpu and virtually no graphics toll. The smoke animations/particles/whatever-it-is are left untouched.

It was not uncommon that on days with very good conditions, lookouts picked out ships before radar did and on average days, they still could see a reasonable distance, that is what I'm trying to simulate. The smoke is a nice thought but of low priority. As I've said a few times now, what I want to do at the moment is sort out the render distance and the blind lookouts. The smoke and things like atmospheric refraction and all sorts of other details are at this point, irrelevant.

If I can get my lookouts spotting a ships funnel or bridge as it comes over the horizon at a proper distance, I'll be happy.

-EDIT- I don't want the crew seeing things I can't at any point. I just want them seeing the things I can, and that both the crew and my self are capable of seeing things at a realistic range, which as mentioned above, with a big ship, could be a good 30km away on a nice day. I know from my experience with aviation that at just 2000 feet above sea level you can see at least 40km (theoretically up to 90km but it's practically impossible due to all sorts of factors) compared to 20km at sea level. So just keep in mind how much altitude affects view range.

[Armistead]

The only time my lookouts spot ships I can hardly see is sometimes at night in fog, other than that I can always see better than they. They do improve some later war. I agree the visuals need some tweaking, if I use my tweaks, they can see about 6nms. I can't find a way to tweak it much further without adjusting other values that effect both sides.

I've never had an issue such as you described with sonar. The way the game works, basically a contact zone extending around your sub that reaches the limit of your best equipment. You yourself can always hear to the best limits, your crew is limited by sonar equipment and ratings. Anytime a group enters your contact zone, you know it by the lag it generates, most use the lag cheat, when they notice a slowdown, they go to sonar and get a bearing. When any group enters your contact zone, you can hear it on sonar.

I can see just a tad beyond radar range, my crew cannot.

Good luck on the smoke, beyond my knowledge if you tried to do it that way.

[Beardmoresam]

I've noticed the lag spikes in the past but I never knew about a sonar "area". What occasionally happens is my sonar operator calls merchant/warship xxx constant distance or whatever it's doing and it shows up on the map and all. I go to have a listen to see what else I can find out but I hear nothing on that bearing, nor on the reciprocal for that matter. My sonar man clearly hears it though? The green light doesn't light up on the sonar panel so I know it's not a corrupt sound file.

I might have to find a fix for that is anyone has made one, if not, no big deal, that's what the "up scope" command is for.