Missing propeller guards.

[J0313]

I just noticed after years of playing SH4 w/TMO, that the prop guards are missing on the Gato class. Was that intentional?:hmm2:

[Hylander_1314]

I noticed it long ago, but didn't think to ask the same question.

[Ducimus]

Stock bug with the 3d model. It's always been that way.

[Tempest555]

Deck hatch is in the wrong place to. You'll find it under the conning tower when it should be a bit behind and to the right of the tower if your looking forward.
_______________________________

Looking at the dimensions-GATO and BALAO are similar can't think of any cosmetic difference in the game with the hull in the hulls-BALAO DAT hull could be inported in GATO DAT because the BALAO has the guards. Then you use BALAO hull skins.

Sounds simple-where is the trip wire?
_________________________________________

Done and Done!!
Import the model from the BALAO DAT to the GATO DAT. I could not see a difference-they even have the same limber hole arrangement. I previewed it in the S3D utility and in game and damned if I can see a difference. Oh yeah the beauty of this is you do not need to use a BALAO hull skin. GATO hull skin works. And no CTD-it shows in game as I said-proof is in the screeny

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/Tempest555/GatoBalao.jpg

[stanger]

Why its a bug? I got a quick look at 5 random Gato-class boats at navsource and from these 5 only one had it (ss-213). Generally, some of them (not only Gato) had it, some not. It looks like the dev team couldnt, or didnt have time to replicate it, so decided to treat every boat from a given class equally, so they ve attached propeller guards to balao, and not to gato.

[Hylander_1314]

So,................... having them or not is no real big deal then. Okay, that's cool! I can go with that. :salute:

[Tempest555]

Thanks for pointing out the bug/anomaly or whatever it is. USS Nerka sails with propeller guards.

http://www.warfish.com/scrapnew.html

[J0313]

I'll try your fix in the future Tempest. But for now since some boats didn't have it then I'll let it go for now.

[Madox58]

Extract the Guard and make it an Upgrade.
You get the choice then.
:haha:

[Hylander_1314]

Tempest, why not upload a version for folks to add to JSGME, so they can have the option of adding it in if they wish?

[Tempest555]

I can upload with a DAT and a readme and a with disclaimers on backin it up yada yada-where do I upload to? Never did that before. I would upload a stock GATO DAT and a modified GATO DAT with the BALAO hull in the DAT.

[stanger]

Extract the Guard and make it an Upgrade.
You get the choice then.
:haha:

Dont laugh:) Thats a good idea.
Seriously, is it possible? I dont mean is it possible to cut it from a sub, thats easy (but retaining materials is still a tricky thing for me), but making it an upgrade? If we could make it work, that would be also realistic thing, as from pictures I saw, a lot of boats after a refit were given those guards, or it was taken away from them - depends (if I recall correctly, Sargo was one such boat?).

[Madox58]

Dont laugh:) Thats a good idea.
Seriously, is it possible?

Sure it is.
Others way better at that part of modding could tell you how to do it.
'TheBeast' is someone I'd ask.
:D

[TorpX]

This stuff about the propeller guards rang a bell, so I did a forum search, and, incredibly, I found what I was looking for.

Someone asked if the items were to protect the propellers, and DavyJ answered:

You are exactly correct. They are propeller guards. They are mostly in place to prevent a tugboat from hitting the screws while maneuvering in harbor, or to keep the screws from hitting the pier pilings. Many subs had them temporarily removed during the war, the reasoning not being entirely clear.


So, it would seem that they were originally part of the boats, but that at least some had them removed (temporarily?) during the war. I can't really think of what the reason would be, though.

[stanger]

So, is it worth to work on it? Are people interested?
For now, I took Balaos prop guards and put it on gato. But, just as with captain office, the mapping is giving me headaches, and without AO map (I think) they will stand out too much from the rest of the sub:

http://images40.fotosik.pl/1702/0e2355314b12c633m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=0e2355314b12c633)

But once that done (texturing that is), it would need to be put in separate dat file, and sub dat file would need to be edited to place a slot for it. And then some text file editing, and done.
(Easier to say it than do :P )

[drakkhen20]

excellent, ill defintly download it if its an option in the menu:yeah:




regards,
drakkhen20

[Madox58]

So, is it worth to work on it? Are people interested?
For now, I took Balaos prop guards and put it on gato. But, just as with captain office, the mapping is giving me headaches, and without AO map (I think) they will stand out too much from the rest of the sub:

http://images40.fotosik.pl/1702/0e2355314b12c633m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=0e2355314b12c633)

But once that done (texturing that is), it would need to be put in separate dat file, and sub dat file would need to be edited to place a slot for it. And then some text file editing, and done.
(Easier to say it than do :P )

You lost me at "without AO map'.
:hmmm:

If you exported with S3D, you have the AO mapping.
The Gato and Balao seem to have the same AO texture by looking at them with a quick glance.

If you're doing a stand alone dat for an Upgrade options thing as I suggested?
Just point at the correct textures. They are already there in SH4.
:yep:

[stanger]

In this case the channels that got exported with the model are useless after detaching the guards from the sub. I had to apply a new texture to them (easy\quick job), save and then bake AO texture and map it, then save the channel as second uvw map. The part with AO tex\map wasnt that easy, cause I am still learning (it started in june: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=196093, so a month ago :) ).
I did attached them to the subs (Gato, Salmon and Porpoise), just to test it and all looks OK, except water reflection, at least when testing Porpoise with Sargo propeller guards, I did noticed that the reflections are missing. So I added WaterReflection controller, but not knowing what do do with 3d model I just imported the same propellers guards once more - that caused the some shimmering on the guards. So either no reflections, or someone will help with that.
About the upgrade option - I did a quick look at it, but I want to finish with 3d modelling first, make sure everything is right.
But I will definitely need help with it (making an upgrade).

Edit: The AO tex is ugly like hell, but at least its working :D

[goose814]

Pre-war subs had the prop guards installed during construction. These were removed after the war started. Subs going on war patrols did not have the prop guards installed. In between refits the subs were fitted with removable prop guards which would be removed before going on patrol.

[drakkhen20]

ooohhhh, this makes it even more intresting! maybe we can find a key that will remove them like raising and lowering flags:woot::yeah:



ideas....ideas....:hmm2:

[Tempest555]

So, is it worth to work on it? Are people interested?
For now, I took Balaos prop guards and put it on gato. But, just as with captain office, the mapping is giving me headaches, and without AO map (I think) they will stand out too much from the rest of the sub:

http://images40.fotosik.pl/1702/0e2355314b12c633m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=0e2355314b12c633)

But once that done (texturing that is), it would need to be put in separate dat file, and sub dat file would need to be edited to place a slot for it. And then some text file editing, and done.
(Easier to say it than do :P )

I'm still learning 3dsMax and mapping that is why I didn't attempt it. Still playing with primitives in that 3D program. Easier to switch with for me with S3D currently. The Japanese were using grapple hooks and lines with explosives to snag subs so I suppose that is one reason the guards were removed. WAHOO didn't have them on her last patrol-but did in earlier ones-it's more a mod then an upgrade.

[TorpX]

Pre-war subs had the prop guards installed during construction. These were removed after the war started. Subs going on war patrols did not have the prop guards installed. In between refits the subs were fitted with removable prop guards which would be removed before going on patrol.
Did you find out the reason for their removal?

[Hylander_1314]

Probably to reduce the submarine signature if being hunted by destroyers. That would be my guess.

[stanger]

But do those propellers guards really would protect the propellers from - even a single - depth charge? I doubt it could make a difference if a depth charge would blow near the sub propellers; but I can imagine a depth charge landing on those propellers guards instead of missing the sub (sub doing evasive maneuvers) (one way or another that would be a close call :D).
Anyway, seems we know that it was early war feature, then (when? 1943?) they were removed, and started to reappear at the end of the war. So make them appear in game 1941 - 1943, remove them 1943 - 1944, and put back on the subs 1945. (Just an idea).

Meanwhile here are Porpoise, Salmon, Gato (in that order) with propellers guards (and reflections\visibility underwater when viewed from above the water):

http://images44.fotosik.pl/325/13a48839d0a74c07m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=13a48839d0a74c07)http://images35.fotosik.pl/1523/d340660c9bdcba72m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=d340660c9bdcba72)http://images37.fotosik.pl/1674/a75563071444af97m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=a75563071444af97)

Gatos look a little too bright, almost like plastic, especially when on surface, but that can be corrected later.

Now, how to make it an upgrade (or downgrade, depends how to look at it :D) option?
This is whats in my head (Porpoise as example):

1) Make Library\USSubParts\
PropGuard.dat > PropGuard_P1 > 3dModel and > Label

2) Edit Submarine\NSS_Porpoise\
NSS_Porpoise.dat > Node-slot_G01_NSS_P1 > Label or cfg instead of slot?
or doeas it matter?

3) Files to edit:
Submarine\NSS_Porpoise\NSS_Porpoise.eqp and NSS_Porpoise.upc
UPCData\UPCUnitsData\UpgradePacks.upc and Equipment.upc


- is that correct?

[drakkhen20]

@torpxThe Japanese were using grapple hooks and lines with explosives to snag subs so I suppose that is one reason the guards were removed.
theres a good reason. i could see it being used to deflect depth charges as one might role off it to keep them the most distance away from the props and i could see them not being put on in shipyards as it might have been a shortcut to get the subs out and patrolling. @stanger: great work, defintly looking good and looking forward to downloading:yeah:

[stanger]

Here are three submarines with propellers guards:

SH4 1.5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?u2yj1sjqx14zlr7)

RFB 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?79ycjacaom916a5)

TMO 2.5 (http://www.mediafire.com/?gj7avczxvfucejr)

TMO 2.5 version is what I use, but I use it with stock textures, so the propellers guards may not match the default TMO sub textures. In such case modify the prop guards texture or copy stock sub textures to your TMO installation or download this file - its stock games textures with normals map made by me:

Submarines skins with normal maps for TMO 25 (http://www.mediafire.com/?nr8redxyjn24g0l)

And remember this is still WIP, report any anomalies here, and any help is welcome.

[drakkhen20]

excellant! downloading now! very much thanks:up:

[Hylander_1314]

Thanks Stanger! Cool little mod!

[Tempest555]

Stranger: Were you able to make it a downgrade by editing the files like you suggested as the submarine gets older? Looks nice the ones I'm looking at (for 1.5 and TMO)-but not having much luck getting rid of them after a certain date.

[TorpX]

The Japanese were using grapple hooks and lines with explosives to snag subs so I suppose that is one reason the guards were removed.


Ah, missed that. I was wondering if it was just some kind of hurry up, cost-cutting deal.

i could see it being used to deflect depth charges as one might role off it to keep them the most distance away from the props
I think the only protection was from the props hitting docks, buoys, or the like. This would have been more important in the peacetime Navy, than after war broke out. Maybe it would prevent mine cables from getting caught in the stern, but I'm not sure about that.

[stanger]

Stranger: Were you able to make it a downgrade by editing the files like you suggested as the submarine gets older? Looks nice the ones I'm looking at (for 1.5 and TMO)-but not having much luck getting rid of them after a certain date.

No, no - its just there for good :) I was waiting for someone to help me on making it an upgrade-able\removable. I also did take a look at zon file and am wondering if it (the guards) can be made destructible, and - I wonder - if the game can use a second model for damage (like bended prop guards)?

[stanger]

OK, made some progress:
- moved the propeller guards to separate dat file;
- added slot for it in nss_gato.dat
- added new equipment part in nss_gato.eqp

Loaded the game - propellers are there. But at this point, the effect is same as before with propellers guards attached "physically"\manualy to the sub.

- added it to equipment.upc as EqFtypeCoating and to UpgradePacks.upc as UPFTypeCoating (just for testing); it shawed up in game:
http://images38.fotosik.pl/1704/e36c9e97ea5f847dm.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=e36c9e97ea5f847d)
but the 3d model is there no matter if I install it or not, guess I need to remove it from nss_gato.eqp?

- made new slot in sub upgrade screen, but how, where to tell the game where to put this particular equipment icons? Is it somewhere else in menu1024.ini?
http://images37.fotosik.pl/1676/40a1b3ae8a2ddad6m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=40a1b3ae8a2ddad6)

Is it OK to create new Equipment Functional Types and Upgrade pack Functional Types? Where else I need to put it to make it work as an upgrade?

If someone could try to answer these questions it would speed up the work significantly.

[goose814]

The prop guards were not there to deflect depth charges. They were installed to protect the propellers from striking any objects such as docks, tugs, etc. Since their installation preceded the war, subs spent a great amount of time conducting exercises and going in and out of port frequently, so their use was needed at the time. Once the war broke out, their use diminished since the subs spent more time on patrols, so they were removed. Removable guards were used in their place when in port. After the war, the guards were once again welded on.

According to the book "The Fleet Submarine in the US Navy" by John D. Alden, an excellent book for anyone interested in fleet subs, the prop guards were authorized for elimination by the Bureau of Ships on Sept 1, 1942, so generally speaking subs before that would have the guards but not long after they would have been removed.

The book doesn't go into specifics as to why they were deleted, but does state that one of the reasons for eliminating certain items was to "...delete peacetime frills, items that would be left in port before going on patrol..." which the prop guards would certainly be catergorized as.

Another excellent source are the photos on Navsource.org. You can clearly see that wartime photos show no guards installed. Also, in some photos you can see what the removable guards looked like and how they were attached.

[Tempest555]

Giving it some thought Stranger-couldn't you make the guards part of the conning tower DAT? As you get rid of the old conning tower and get the new conning tower -you also lose the guards when you drop the old conning tower in the upgrade. Not a seperate modification to the sub along with something else but something that is part of all ready used by the game.

[TorpX]

Good idea, Tempest.

[stanger]

That would be simplest from all "upgrade" options to do. Could do it, but still would love to learn how to add new equipment\upgrade packs. I spent whole Monday fighting with menu1024, and - as a curiosity - decided to do sh5 style pages - just linked with main menu1024 file with one line: File=path to the page ini. And to my surprise - the game loaded with "page layout" in separate directory, loaded with "page weaponsandsensors" too, so did whole file like that (105 pages:/\\!!) and started to get a lot of errors :). But it looks like some of the menu1024 sections can be "detached" from the file, would be great for menu modders, I think.
Anyway, I will give the upgrade option idea one more chance, if I can't find a solution, I will follow your idea, Tempest.

[Tempest555]

Oh I know what you are going through-If you only knew how much time I wasted in dsd files -editing, changing names.... tracking a problem that wasn't a problem. No sound from an SH3 ship in SH4 Test Mission (set up for edits and tweaks). Well -it's not a problem-if you set the ship with a speed over 5 knots. No sound in Sonar at 5 knots (my SH3 ships mission speed) or below. Duh I remembered that somewhere.. I was pulling my hair out :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

Yeah that may work-you lose the propeller guards when the new conning tower shows up. Just have the guards linked to the old tower.

[drakkhen20]

sweet guys so does this mean we'll see an update to this preety soon ?:D

[stanger]

Now, to just align them and done :roll:

http://images38.fotosik.pl/1708/341fc7239c48efb4m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=341fc7239c48efb4)

It's easy with sub dat file, as you can see where you put them, but if you place the item in conning tower dat you put it relative to CT. But, no problem, just its more time consuming.

[update]
Well, it turned out more complicated, as always :P I've done Gato CT 1 and 4, Porpoise CT 1,2 and 4, Salmon\Sargo CT 1 and 2, but to make it work with Salmon\Sargo, I would have to remove the propeller guards from Sargo, but that would also require to remap whole sub (and first put it together in 3d software (or is it possible to export whole "package" at once from dat file?). Thats why I didnt touch Balao and Tambor\Gar too.
So, for now, version 2 of the mod for Gato and Porpoise only (and TMO only, I have to test every change in game, and I dont have "working" installations of SH4 with RFB or stock; can be done of course if there will be demand for it):

Missing Propellers Guards v2 (TMO25) (http://www.mediafire.com/?lb57hdes9ela6ev)

(Still hoping someone can provide some hints about making new upgrades, or is it hardcoded partly).

[Tempest555]

Stranger I appreciate the work-you can get mentally fried doing this-believe I've been there- rest a bit and play the game-that's what I'm doing tonight on my own mission I designed.

You can end up not liking a game you love to play. No rush on this.
___________________
Ok I'm running SH4 1.5 and TMO 2.5 GATO shows guards with LATE conning tower (Mission in 1945)-But if I have EARLY conning tower there is NO guards-is that what you set up? No CTD and everything ran smooth with me. Only ran single missions.
_________________________

Ok I played with the configuration dates and entry dates in the missions and depending on those dates will show the guards and sometimes not with the early conning tower-with the late conning tower it appears I always get the guards. But I only edited 3 stock missions.
________

Edited one configuration date-got the late tower and no guards.

[Tempest555]

:up:

It's all Good. I like it.

[stanger]

So, no problems with it? It should work, I myself had to create couple of single missions for testing this, so I wouldnt be able to re-position the guards if they didnt showed up. There are 4 Gato towers, the ones with propellers are 1st (beginning to june 1942) and late (starting jan 44).

rest a bit and play the game
I tried that on Saturday, and was depth charged for two or three hours (real time) :) But it was fun in some way.

[Hylander_1314]

Cool work there Stanger! I like it! This should work fine with all versions of SH4 as far as mods go. Because you're not changing any mission or other core files. I'll try it with FOTRS, and GFO.

[stanger]

Tempest555, I forgot to mention you in the read me! It was your idea to link the guards to conning towers. So, forgive me, I will update the readme at the next opportunity.
Talking about next update, I dont think I can remap whole submarine model, not yet, its still another level (higher) of knowledge and skills to me. But if some skilled 3d modeller wants to help, I have Sargo boat stitched together, with propellers guards detached, whats needs to be done is - update texture mapping (diffuse, AO and - ... Sargo has 3 channels, not sure what last one is...) - I can send it to a volunteer.

[Madox58]

@stanger,

PM sent with a link to the Sargo obj files with no guards.
:03:

In 3DS Max, once the guards are deleted it acts like no tex coords are there.
Once I export and check again?
They are there and all is fine.
Don't ask me why it does that as I have no idea!
:doh:

EDIT: Once I collapse the modifier stack in 3DS Max the UV's show just fine.

[Tempest555]

Stranger-ALL Software gets patches HAHAHAAH :haha:
Don't worry about it. I may PM you on an Ambient Occlusion problem in 3dSmax. Driving me up the wall-and yeah I followed the tutorials.

[drakkhen20]

so we are waiting on a patched version or has it all ready been uploaded?:hmm2:

[stanger]

Thanks to Privateer I think I will be able to do Salmon\sargo and tambor\gar, just need to load 3dsmax and check it. Looks like I was going the hardest way with it, when there is simpler one :)
Still, once the 3d stuff is done, I will need to do couple of conning towers, and its 11 pm here, so possible update tomorrow.

[Madox58]

Everyone keeps typeing my name with a P
It's privateer NOT Privateer
:haha:

I always use a lower case here at SubSim because I never felt I deserved a grown up P

:har:

[stanger]

:/\\!! I am sorry, Priv... privateer :D

[Madox58]

:up:

I'm gonna be like Dowly
(he's my Hero on this)
piss and moan until you all get it right!
:har:

[Madox58]

Ambient Occlusion problem in 3dSmax. Driving me up the wall-and yeah I followed the tutorials.

I find AO's in Max lacking in many ways.
:nope:
One thing is We have no info on how the Dev's did them in Max.
How were they lighted and such.
XSI does a much better job and was used for SH5.
The SoftImage ModTool does pretty good AO's and better then Max.

The best AO's I've ever seen with little troubles?
3DS Max with FlatIron.

[Tempest555]

A.O. mapping is such b******* in 3dSMax-and I earned the right to say that.
Gotta be a better way.

[stanger]

You may be on to something with that AO in 3dsMax as I have some issues with Sargo boat...
This is mine modification (removed prop guards, privateer method):

http://images45.fotosik.pl/1462/bc929e5cf8310a1fm.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=bc929e5cf8310a1f)

This is stock (unmoded):

http://images39.fotosik.pl/1667/892315db39395643m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=892315db39395643)

- you cant see torp doors while they are closed.

Privateers model is also correct in this place, but instead has "weirdness" here:

http://images40.fotosik.pl/1714/241e6ec180569e7fm.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=241e6ec180569e7f)

(black stripes on the deck).

So, look like I have to do some more work with Sargo, the file I promised is ready for upload (added Sargo\Salmon and Tambor\Gar boats), but I dont know if you want it like that. What do you think, upload version 3 and work on version 4, or polish the thing, and then release?

[Madox58]

DAMN!! I missed that!!
:/\\!!

I'll go back through the files for a solution.
Are you useing the Stock Subs or from a Mod?
:hmmm:

[stanger]

I am using TMO subs, but sub hulls are the same as stock.

[Madox58]

OK. I'll redo and see if I can find a solution ASAP.
:up:

EDIT: It's the AO (or uv2) obj file corrupted by deleteing the prop guards.
I didn't look close enuff so missed that problem.

[stanger]

So, what could be a solution? Making new AO map? How does it get corrupted? I had my doubts for a moment, when working on it: we are deleting part of the model, texture mapping got updated (talking about uv2), but the model doesnt have every item on it that original map channel have (ruder, aft and bow planes and so on), so the update that took place leaves those parts out of the mapping too, am I correct? Or its not it that causes the problem?

[Madox58]

I don't think making a new AO is needed.
What happens is the faces stuff gets confused because of how the model is built.

I'm running them through other software to seperate meshes and UV's.
Then I'll delete the guards and make it all one mesh again.

It takes sometime plus I need to check everything then sometimes change settings.

This problem actually answers alot of questions I've had for sometime now.
:yep:

[stanger]

Hope you will share what youve learned (if its not too complicated on my level of 3d modelling skills) :)

[Madox58]

Oh I will share the solution when I find it.
That's a must do for future stuff by others.
:up:

[Madox58]

@stanger

PM with a link to a test file sent.

After doing many, MANY different tests it appears as I found several free programs to handle this problem.
I'll wait for stanger to test the dat I send a link to before I waste alot of everyones time with a long post on what's going on.

[Madox58]

http://www.mediafire.com/?73973v6ag9nw146

This is a modified Sargo Hull.
JSGME ready.

I looked at it in Game and didn't spot anything odd.
But you all have sharper eyes then me.
:yep:

Test it out and if you spot a problem let me know.
I'm still looking for an easy fix to a long time problem.

[Hylander_1314]

Will try it out tomorrow night. Too much to do during the day, but the lack of prop guards looks great!

[stanger]

Looks good, no oddities, just Sargo without propeller guards, thanks privateer!

[Madox58]

I'll get some screenshots of what I did to get this done without messing up the 3D mesh.
What was happening was faces were getting flipped when you mess with the meshes in nearly every program I tried.
That made it appear as if the UV's were messed up.
:nope:

All you'll need is MeshLab and Notepad to do the same thing with little trouble.
:D

[stanger]

OK, while I wait for privateer to coma back, here is version 3 of the mod:

http://www.mediafire.com/?14ug5ti69fn6z26

Added Sargo and Salmon boats, all thanks to privateer, I have also done Tambor\Gar (couple of days ago, but was waiting for privateers' advice) and included it in separate folder, so people can load it with main mod, or not. It's because Tambor was done standard way: export from s3d, edit in 3d software, import back, and while it looks correct, I would prefer to use privateers method on it, to make sure every thing is right.

If someone dont want to risk anything, or just wants to play the game instead of testing, here are screenshots of Tambor before and after the modification:

http://www.mediafire.com/?tsq9u3qn5ul752e