Aft Starboard cable on the Sargo boat is in the wrong location

[Hylander_1314]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in the past, but if one looks closely at the Sargo boat while on the bridge, or from external camera views, the aft starboard cable that runs from the aft mast to the conning tower is not attached properly.

it runs from the center of the mast, to the center of the tower, as opposed to the proper attachment points to the starboard side of each location.

Not along enough in the 3D model program to try to fix it, as it is just different enough from GMax to make it a stumbling learning curve.

If this has been brought up in the past, my apologies.

[Webster]

things in the game are positioned based on a x, y, z axis grid so you chamnge one for up and down one for left or right, and the other is ... well i cant remember, but change those settings to reposition it to where it should be

[Hylander_1314]

Okay, where would that be? I can see it in the .dat file, on all the conning tower variants, as long as i zoom way in close and get the angle just right.

Thanks in advance Webster! :salute:

[stanger]

I don't think you can do this with s3d only; you want to move just one cable, it would be possible (in s3d) if it was a separate object, but it isnt, as far as I know. You would need to export it, edit in some 3d software, and put back into dat file.

Edit: it node - NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas; you can move the whole thing (in node positioning, x,y,z - like Webster said), but - looks like - not a single cable.

[Hylander_1314]

Thanks Stanger, yes, I saw that myself, and that is why I think the whole thing needs to be exported, tweaked, and added back in. Working with Wings3D, I am, ........................ shall we say, still rather lacking in skills to use it, and would probably take me a year to figure it out.

When I clicked on the Antennae Node, I noticed they are tied to the center of the main tower node. as they don't have individual nodes for each one.

Also, when I try to export anything from any .dat files, I get an error message, even if it is a .obj file, which Wings uses. It tells me that it's either, "Not a Wings format, or is an old Wings format".

That's the frustrating part. I have no clue how to get passed this speedbump in the road.

[Webster]

if it is seperate you click on that one cable, if its not the only thing highlighted then as you guessed the "unit" of things its contained in must be tweaked.

if its only the sargo that is wrong then maybe you can import another subs info that is done correctly over to the sargo to replace it

[stanger]

I did manage to export it as obj - not entire CT, but only that "antennas" node, imported it to wings3d (at this point I dont know if I should invert anything while exporting through s3d, just wanted to check if I can do anything in wings), managed to find out how to move things (select an item, right click - move - free or on x, y or z), but I dont know how to align it: I can move entire cable, but how to move one end of it while not moving the other? Also, it seems like that cable is too short, so will need to lengthen it.
Wings3d is fine piece of software, not as frustrating as Blender, but its still a nightmare :P
I can't wait to see what problems will arise when it'll come to importing it back in s3d...

On the other hand its should be a quick job for a 3d modeller, instead of making another ship, some of them could fix this, or even rework sub models to have holes (holes?) like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/USS_Pampanito_bow.JPG

German boats in u-boat addon alrady have it, and look cool.

[Hylander_1314]

if it is seperate you click on that one cable, if its not the only thing highlighted then as you guessed the "unit" of things its contained in must be tweaked.

if its only the sargo that is wrong then maybe you can import another subs info that is done correctly over to the sargo to replace it

Thanks Webster! I'l take a look and see if any are compatable!

Edit.
Looks like the P-Class boats use the same Conning Tower, and it should work? But I'm not sure what to do exactly with the dat structure. I was used to old games like B-17II, and Red Baron 3D, and mostly did skins for them. The model side of it, is still new to me, so bear with me please as i stumble along.

[Hylander_1314]

I did manage to export it as obj - not entire CT, but only that "antennas" node, imported it to wings3d (at this point I dont know if I should invert anything while exporting through s3d, just wanted to check if I can do anything in wings), managed to find out how to move things (select an item, right click - move - free or on x, y or z), but I dont know how to align it: I can move entire cable, but how to move one end of it while not moving the other? Also, it seems like that cable is too short, so will need to lengthen it.
Wings3d is fine piece of software, not as frustrating as Blender, but its still a nightmare :P
I can't wait to see what problems will arise when it'll come to importing it back in s3d...

On the other hand its should be a quick job for a 3d modeller, instead of making another ship, some of them could fix this, or even rework sub models to have holes (holes?) like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/USS_Pampanito_bow.JPG

German boats in u-boat add on already have it, and look cool.

Yes, the limber holes would be nice to model! But you would have to build something as a structure behind them, or you wouldn't see the hull interior as it is a one sided model to view from external only.

Kinda like the cockpit and engine bay in the Halberstadt CL2 I was making. Once I cut the fuselage for those areas, I had to build an interior set of walls, and floors for it or looking in those areas, you saw nothing but open space.

[Hylander_1314]

I did manage to export it as obj - not entire CT, but only that "antennas" node, imported it to wings3d (at this point I dont know if I should invert anything while exporting through s3d, just wanted to check if I can do anything in wings), managed to find out how to move things (select an item, right click - move - free or on x, y or z), but I dont know how to align it: I can move entire cable, but how to move one end of it while not moving the other? Also, it seems like that cable is too short, so will need to lengthen it.
Wings3d is fine piece of software, not as frustrating as Blender, but its still a nightmare :P
I can't wait to see what problems will arise when it'll come to importing it back in s3d...

On the other hand its should be a quick job for a 3d modeller, instead of making another ship, some of them could fix this, or even rework sub models to have holes (holes?) like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/USS_Pampanito_bow.JPG

German boats in u-boat addon alrady have it, and look cool.

I can get the CT to export to Wings 3D, but when I try to open it, it gives me a failed to open message, with the explanation that the file is not a Wings3D file or is an old format.

[stanger]

I may only suggest to check if youre using latest versions of s3d and wings3d.
These are files exported by s3d:

2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv2.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 91*419 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv2.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv3.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 54*739 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv3.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv4.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 54*739 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv4.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 56*143 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.obj

I did manage to import (to wings3d and maya) NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.obj.

I also did manage to get trial version of Maya 2013 and this is result of it:

http://images40.fotosik.pl/1636/a790d966858304c6m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=a790d966858304c6)

But I cant find an option to export it as obj file. It may be a limitation of the trial version of Maya, or its not suitable for such tasks. I will try 3dsMax if there is fully functional trial available. I will also need to export it one more time and do it with skwasjer tutorial (to make sure I wont need to redo the work - again).

[MareKapszli]

...:cool:

[stanger]

...:cool:

What, you're hiding something. :)

[Hylander_1314]

Being his first post, I would venture to say, that he thinks it's cool.

[Hylander_1314]

I may only suggest to check if youre using latest versions of s3d and wings3d.
These are files exported by s3d:

2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv2.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 91*419 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv2.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv3.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 54*739 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv3.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv4.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 54*739 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas-uv4.obj
2012-06-13 15:46 326 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.mtl
2012-06-13 15:46 56*143 NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.objI did manage to import (to wings3d and maya) NSS_SalmonSargoTower01_Antenas.obj.

Okay, I just get a single .obj file in my folder I save to.

Yep, I do have the latest versions of both programs. :hmmm:

[stanger]

I can't be that precise with my mouse (and 3dsMax:nope:):

http://images46.fotosik.pl/1602/c6f179fb85a8bc42m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=c6f179fb85a8bc42)

Cant it be locked somehow at one end, or just positioned by entering coordinates?

[Hylander_1314]

I can't be that precise with my mouse (and 3dsMax:nope:):

http://images46.fotosik.pl/1602/c6f179fb85a8bc42m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=c6f179fb85a8bc42)

Cant it be locked somehow at one end, or just positioned by entering coordinates?

Not fami;iar with 3DSMax, but I think it is like GMax, and yes, you can position things by typing in the coordinates. But I am suprized it won't let you line it up with your mouse. :-?

Well, you could always try the next best option, and use the slicing tool to slice off the attachment arm on the CT.

Next, use the slicing tool to slice the masts for the antennae, you will can then delete the starboard side, and then just mirror the port side, and attach them to the CT at the vertices, make sure to clean up any extra dots that aren't needed, and all should be well.

Was hoping to substitute the P-Class CT for the Sargo / Salmon, but it suffers from this too.

But this reminds me of when I was trying to line up the bracing wires between the wings and struts on the Halberstadt! What a chore that was!

At least you got it (the Sargo CT) to load into a program! :rock: :yeah:

[Hylander_1314]

Also, when trying to line up things like this, and I know it's a royal pain, but try not to be at angles like your screenshot shows.

What I found to work the best when working with cables / wires, or anything thin like that, is make sure to have the model lined up perfectly on one axis at a time, and then move it to where it lines up, then go to the next axis, do the same, and the next.

You should either get it very close the first time, or be right on target. But if you work at offset angles, they can tend to frustrate you.

Also, as I don't know if 3DSMax does it, but GMax had an option, that would let you move things either by single axis, or combinations of 2 axis', and the latter always gave me fits. So if 3DS Max has that option, make sure it is off in this case, and move the cable one axis at a time. It will go much quicker, smoother, and less frustrating.

Just a though is all. Hope it helps!

[stanger]

I can be more precise in Maya, it is much easier to use with its cleaner interface and better camera controls, but the final result - after importing back to s3d - was a 3d model much smaller, like 2 times smaller. So I decided to use 3ds max for two main reasons: there is skwasjer tutorial on how to import\export to 3dsMax, and s3d itself seems optimized for 3dsmax (its the only program that import\display the model correctly). But I am total noob at this, so I spent hours just looking around interface, the tools I can use and so on. It is frustrating considering its just one straight cable that need to be moved :)
Im still hoping some 3d modeler will show up here and do the job:O:

Edit.
The screenshot is from s3d after importing edited cables. But I did managed to load the CT to 3dsMax (just to try things) with no problem. But the cables\antenas I edited standalone, without entire CT - was afraid to screw something with textures or something.
And yes, I can choose to move on one axis at a time, will try it that way tomorrow, it feels like a good advice, will see.

[stanger]

I give up, I started talking to to this piece of ... software (and they want couple of thousands of euros for it:nope:)

Now off to have some treatment:

http://www.dramastyle.com/images/3/1/6598/One-Flew-Over-the-Cuckoo-s-Nest_6598_7.jpg

[Hylander_1314]

Yes, I know! 3D model software ain't cheap! I would love to dive headlong onto it myself, but I have nowhere near the funding for it.

[stanger]

OK, found what I was looking for - how not to rotate an object around its center, I had to change pivot:
http://images41.fotosik.pl/1594/f26a28768f942dc8m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=f26a28768f942dc8)

and make that one cable a separate object, to rotate\move\scale it separatly from whole thing.

End result after importing back in s3d:

http://images35.fotosik.pl/1461/fa786610ac06c975m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=fa786610ac06c975)

It's a little bit longer, but its barely noticable.

Here is the file for testing:
http://www.mediafire.com/?oere3gn47gmh35x
About compatibility: SH41.5, TMO2.5, NavMapMakeOver2.1+air base addon.

Whats left to do: 1)test it in game; 2) find how to enter object length, scaling it with mouse is a pain;

[Hylander_1314]

Looking good there Stanger!

For moving just a part of the cable, as in, one end, I think it is the vertex dots you want to see. They are the points where the edges of the cable intersect, or join.

Here's a pic of the Halberstadt I was working on, the light blue dots are the vertexes. Some are very close, but you can see the individual ones on the bigger surfaces.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll37/Conrad_B/Halberstadt.jpg

But anyways, what you will want to do, instead of scaling the cable, is click on the vertex points, for the end you wish to move / adjust to get them to line up. You should be able to move a group of them, by either left clicking on the backround, and scrolling over the ones you wish to move, or zoom in and CTRL + Left Click on them. You can them move them along the axis you wish to adjust.

On the image I posted above, if you click on a vertex, it changes to red to let you know what you have selected. And then do as you wish. It is actually simpler than it sounds.

But you can see all the wires I created, and then had to set into place between the struts on the wings and fuselage.

Hope it helps, at least somewhat. :up:

[Hylander_1314]

I also downloaded your file, but am out on patrol at the moment, so I will have to wait until I get back to port.

I will test it TMO 2.2, and FOTRS. It should be fine for TMO 2.5 if it works fine with 2.2, as thee aren't, to my knowledge, any drastic changes between the two versions as far as sub models go.

Also, if it tests out fine, the 02 and 03 CT's need the correction, as does the P-Class CTs. But I think the P-Class, and Sargo / Salmon use the same CT's so once you get one set done, you may be able to just import the model to the other class without going through the whole process of moving it again, unless you want the practice.

[stanger]

I just did a quick test with early Sargo (in single mission); looks OK.

http://images41.fotosik.pl/1594/8b2fa9ed7facd871m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=8b2fa9ed7facd871)

http://images38.fotosik.pl/1639/837acac16c4eef01m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=837acac16c4eef01)

http://images46.fotosik.pl/1605/2e4e0ed80a4e66d8m.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=2e4e0ed80a4e66d8)

You need to zoom in really close to notice its not perfectly aligned:

http://images46.fotosik.pl/1605/aa538ea84c7fe9adm.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=aa538ea84c7fe9ad)

So, if we started it, we should finish it and do the rest. I think it would be safer to do it manualy instead of importing that one model, besides - yes, more practice for me, and I need to check your advice (moving vertex points, instead of scaling).

[Hylander_1314]

Looks great! And you can see, that the cable you moved just needs to have the end moved back so it doesn't pass into the attachment point, but just meets up with the face of it.

That is where having the vertexs helps, as you can click on them, and just move them. Much easier than scaling honestly.

[stanger]

Fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/?j014t4xo4yk1jf7

If anything is wrong with it, report it. It looks fine in s3d. And yes, working on vertices really helps, thanks Hylander!

Am I seeing it right? 3rd and 4th salmon\sargo towers don't have stern cables at all, only in front of conning tower. So only 2nd CT need to be corrected.

And 2nd salmon\sargo tower:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ex87uxwh7b852il

Here are both Salmon-Sargo CT variants in one file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0hy4ajz221fm23d

Here are Porpoise CT 1 - 4 in one package:

http://www.mediafire.com/?439oe74hi14m1qg

[Hylander_1314]

If it has a stern mast, the starboard cable will run from the center of the mast to the flagpole on the railing of the CT.

If there is no aft mast, there are no aft cables.

And I am downloading now.

Thanks for tackling that little detail! I have been wanting to do this for a long time, but forgot about it, after many failed attempts to export the models. And when I come here, I get sidetracked and forget that I wanted to mention it here.

You da man! (modern American slang).

Honestly, I would offer these up in the supermod threads, and let folks try them out to see if there are any issues. But since all you did, was move an item, and you didn't fiddle with any of the internal workings, it should work fine for all versions, and all variants from vanilla, to TMO, to FOTRS, to GFO RFB. You may also wish to contact Sailor Steve, and see if he would help you upload these little tweaks to the download section.

And you are most welcome on the vertices advice! Glad it made things easier for you!

[Hylander_1314]

Just to see what would happen, I dropped them in the Object Folder in mid-patrol, and no ill effects as yet. Like I said, all you were doing was moving a cable attachment point on the tower and mast, so it shouldn't give anyone fits since you didn't mess with anything else.

And thanks again!

[stanger]

It should be compatible with other mods, worst scenario, people using other mods or stock game would get tower emblems and kill flags entries in dat file (I dont know why they are there in TMO) and maybe a flag mast(?).
In case people will want it, updating stock, or other mods dats would be fairly easy, quick job.

[Hylander_1314]

The Texture Folder has the artfiles for the CTs, so whatever you have in there will show up in the game, whether stock, or a modded CT, if you use the ones that are downloadable.

Still running strong, no issues even with adding them mid patrol, but I did it directly to old fashioned way, copy and paste, overwriting the old with the new. Ahhhhhhh, the old days!

I think they're ready for release myself.

[Tempest555]

Used it in my TMO (the most current TMO) modded SH4. No problems.

[Hylander_1314]

Couple days now of using the modded CTs for the P-Class, and Salmon Sargo boats, and no issues have arisen.

Running smooth as ever!

[Hylander_1314]

4 days on now, TMO and FOTRS both running fine!

Go and make a proper release of this little mod. It appears to work fine, with no crash issues at all.

[stanger]

You mean - make a release thread, make read me, and all?
I can do that, but I think I should take this opportunity to update it for stock and RFB (since its already for TMO, and - as you say - FotRS).

[Hylander_1314]

Yes, go ahead and do a readme, and make a separate release thread.

Honestly, since the base files for Stock, RFB, and even GFO are the same, it shouldn't require any special tweaking for them. The user should be able to just load the mod, and go. Mainly, because you are not altering any campaign, or mission files, just a 3D model mod to correct something.

As you are only adding the CT's to the Object folder, and no artfiles per se, as those are in the Texture folder, and whatever .dds art file is in there will be mapped to it.

Just make them JSGME ready for ease of installation. As usual, it is good to make a note to add this mod while in port, although I was anxious, and added it mid patrol, manually, with no bad effects, like crashing the game.

[Webster]

to see if you need a version for other mods just check them, if they have the same files in them as the ones you modded then add your changes to the files from those mods to make it compatable.

other mods may change things you dont notice like draft height or guns or equipt updates and things so to avoid "breaking" another mod with your changes always start with the file from the other mod since you will never know all of what might be different in it.

if the files you changed arent in another mod then it is already compatable since it doesnt change the same files.