German rifles are hot

[Skybird]

especially the assault rifle G36. As German media repeatedly reported now over the past weeks, the rifle gets easily very hot - and then (according to internal tests by the Bundeswehr with 89 rifles so far) the spreading of bullets becomes so wide that even at 200 meters range the effective combating against enemies is no longer possible. Ongoing, longer fire fights are impossible with this rifle, it is said. The BW says operations in such situations were seriously in jeopardy.

Now I think that any rifle, pistol, gun becomes hot when firing many rounds in a short period of time.

I wonder to what degree other contemporary assault rifles are effected by this? Anyone knowing what the standards are?

[CaptainHaplo]

So are some german chicks.....

I prefer the chicks hot - over here "hot" can also mean stolen, and I prefer to avoid dealing with stolen firearms..

Still - I get your point and would have to say - totally sweet!

To answer - yes a firearm gets hot. Friction in the barrel and all that.
You can melt the barrel of any firearm if its fired too much. It really depends on the number of rounds that it takes before you start having issues and how rapidly those rounds went downrange.
An M16 for example, on auto (the early ones had a setting for such) can chew through rounds like nobody's business. With adequate magazines and a skilled operator, you could make the thing inop. But that takes a while.
I suspect that with the # of issues they have seen, the problem is arising too quickly.

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?

[Skybird]

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?
So far not. Just the generel media releases. But the BW is not happy and says the problem arises with all 89 rifles they had test runs with. And they rate - internally - ongoing firefights that do not end quickly as practically non-doable with this rifle, as described above. The problems internally are described to be of "utmost relevance for military operations". If the weapon is not allowed to cool down after a few triple salves or a sequence of rapid single fire shots, it can break down completely.

I do not know if there have been complaints filed from troops in Afghanistan. But the BW avoids scenarios with ongoing, long-lasting exchanges of fire.

If the enemy cooperates - and there lies the problem.

The G36 is in very high demand all around the world, the rifle is considered to be extremely sexy. I wonder why they realised the problems not earlier. Or did they, and the message just was hidden? :-?

[antikristuseke]

According to an aquaintance on mine in ESTSOF who also use a G36 variant, the problem occurse only when the rifle is put into service in a role that should be filled by an LMG and overheating is a moot issue if proper triger discipline is maintained by troops.

Talking with some other friends who are either just active duty or former members of EDF who have come into contact with the G36 its pretty much the same thing. None of them had noticed the G36 overheating any more than the Galil's our regular troops are issed with and that the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

Ofcourse my post is nothing but anecdotal, but meh.

[Skybird]

I googled a bit and skimmed some blogs and forums.

The temperature problem arises after the third cartridge has been emptied in ongoing single shot scenarios. The weapon then creates a spread of 1.20 meters at 100 meters distance. Do not know if that is much or little, I have no expereince with these things.

The rifle is said to have a very good manufacturing quality and very good sights, but the precision beyond 200-300 meters in general suffers due to the light-weighted ammunition the BW fields for it.

The problem of heated weapons seems to be focussed not on the barrel itself, but due to the fact that while the barrel is metal, major parts of the frame are made of polymer components. Heat from the barrel cannot be transported away from the barrel into other metal parts, the plastic in parts block that heat transportation, or does not transport it as good as metal. Some people referred to other weapons made with plenty of plastic and used in foreign militaries also suffer from heat transportation problems.

It seems to be that the more plastic is used, the more problems with heat show up. An assault rifle certainly is not to be used like a LMG or MMG, however, that you need to fire two or three magazines in single fire when being in a war is something one should take into account as a possible and likely scenario.

I also found media reports quoting H&K that long lasting firefights were never a design criterion for the weapon.

[Skybird]

the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

While the Bild has been capütured the story today or yesterday, the first report was done three weeks ago in FOCUS and Der Spiegel. Also,m they base on internal papers they gained poessession of, by the BW, which as I said, rates the problem as "of utmost relevance for combat operations".

[Catfish]

I really think those Kalashnikovs are better, tested hot and cold and battered for precision:

http://englishrussia.com/2012/04/22/how-kalashnikov-guns-are-made/

or the israelian UZI.

[Penguin]

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,825030,00.html (German only)
I remember having read it on Spiegel online, though I didn't pay too much attention as the article was published on April 1st and it just states basic firearm knwledge.
It says that after several hundred shots in quick single fire or short bursts the barrel gets so hot that the probability to hit a target on 300m gets reduced to 1/3 (compared to a cold barrel I guess).
So the official German ROE advice to let the barrel cool down till it's "handwarm".
I can't think of any assault rifle which doesn't has this problem if you rapidly fire hundreds of shots.

The Bundeswehr in Afghanistan also uses a similar firefight doctrine as the US: pin down the enemy untill the cavalry arrives, so overheating might become a problem if you use an assault rifle in the role of a support gun. However this task should usually be fulfilled by the MG3 - or the LMG (MG4) which is still only sparely available, not sure how common the use of the latter is in Afghanistan.

[Skybird]

I also found that the BW seems to have started in early 2011 with distributing old G3 with small telescopic sights to the troops in Afghanistan.

:o


But I am not certain if that is due to the temperature issue: it maybe is due to the fact that the G3 uses 7.62 mm callibre. Maybe the combat distances in Afghanistan were found to be longer than what the 5.56 callibre can negotiate with some minimum precision.

Also, the discussion on whether the loss in penetration power against thin walls and wooden objects when they went from 7.62 to 5.56 is worth to save money, is very old, but still being run. To go to 5.56 mm was a politically motivated, no military decision over here. Firing a huge cloud of small callibre in close-distance infights maybe is better, but at longer distances and against covered targets I - by amateur's instinct - would prefer the heavier callibre automatically, even at the price of lower firing rate.

The alternative would have been to introduce the G27 (HK 417) which uses 7.62 mm, instead of the G36. But that model now is only used as a sniper rifle in the BW, I think.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,825030,00.html (German only)
I remember having read it on Spiegel online, though I didn't pay too much attention as the article was published on April 1st and it just states basic firearm knwledge.
It says that after several hundred shots in quick single fire or short bursts the barrel gets so hot that the probability to hit a target on 300m gets reduced to 1/3 (compared to a cold barrel I guess).
So the official German ROE advice to let the barrel cool down till it's "handwarm".
I can't think of any assault rifle which doesn't has this problem if you rapidly fire hundreds of shots.


I had that news but did not post it because it gives no numbers that Haplo wanted. Whether "several hundred shots" is written in the BW paper or by a journalist trying to formulate a round and juicy sentence, is unclear.

Again, today's news reports quote the BW with hayving itnernally written in a report that the problems are of "utmost relevance for combat operations". I think you do not use such a formulation if the problem is a non-issue.

3 standard magazines for the G36 hold 90 rounds - almost the "hundred" the Spiegel report mentions, though not in plural, but singular.

[Jimbuna]

It sure is unusual for the Germans to have such issues, they usually manufacture good/sound weapons.

[Rockstar]

Just a guess but when I see this stuff like this in the media. Its to stir up government and or public support for additional military spending. Maybe somebody else wants in on the action. Id bet a competing arms manufacturer or exporter is probably the source of this bad press. Either that it really is a piece of junk.

[MH]

Modern assault rifles are not designed for automatic fire so if the the issue occurs when firing in controlled manner then i would say the gun must have design flaw.
In particular if its matter of 100 rounds but yeah it can get very hot.


MG's with their relatively heavy design usually have changeable barrels but still operators are toughed to shoot in relatively controlled way as well while switching barrels under combat situations.
Suppressive fire is not necessary about emptying all ammo supply in 5 minutes.

When i got to shoot MG i remember changing barrels in range of 250-500 bullets and sometimes colling the gun with drinking water to keep it going.
That is when intensivly shooting in long or short burst.
Or sniping long range with the same 7.62 Belgian MAG.:doh:

[Penguin]

I had that news but did not post it because it gives no numbers that Haplo wanted. Whether "several hundred shots" is written in the BW paper or by a journalist trying to formulate a round and juicy sentence, is unclear.

Again, today's news reports quote the BW with hayving itnernally written in a report that the problems are of "utmost relevance for combat operations". I think you do not use such a formulation if the problem is a non-issue.

3 standard magazines for the G36 hold 90 rounds - almost the "hundred" the Spiegel report mentions, though not in plural, but singular.

The Spiegel article says:

Nach mehreren hundert Schuss wird der Lauf der Waffe so heiß, dass auf 300 Meter Entfernung die Trefferwahrscheinlichkeit auf ein Drittel sinkt. Das stellte sich nach Informationen des SPIEGEL bei Untersuchungen der Bundeswehr (http://www.spiegel.de/thema/bundeswehr/) heraus.


The "das" from the last sentence refers to the previous sentence, so it doesn't look like the journalist invented something but refers to the Bundeswehr investigation. Talking about several hundred shots, also leads to the assumption that we are talking about at least 300 shots (mehrere is at least 3). This would add up to at least 10 magazines, which is also the ammo capacity an infantry soldier would normally carry.
I would love it when journalists at least provide a link or a scan of the original sources, today's Focus article from also lacks this... :-?



When i got to shoot MG i remember changing barrels in range of 250-500 bullets and sometimes colling the gun with drinking water to keep it going.
That is when intensivly shooting in long or short burst.


Well, there is also the unofficial Bundeswehr field doctrine to urinate on the MG's barrel if you lack water or a spare barrel... :D

[CptSimFreak]

news - "This just in - detonation causes heat!"

people - "we are dooooooomed!"

facepalm

[Herr-Berbunch]

They don't make 'em like they used to -

"The Vickers gun accompanied the BEF to France in 1914, and in the years that followed, proved itself to be the most reliable weapon on the battlefield, some of its feats of endurance entering military mythology. Perhaps the most incredible was the action by the 100th Company of the Machine Gun Corps at High Wood on 24 August 1916. This company had ten Vickers guns, and it was ordered to give sustained covering fire for 12 hours onto a selected area 2,000 yards away in order to prevent German troops forming up there for a counter-attack while a British attack was in progress. Two whole companies of infantrymen were allocated as carriers of ammunition, rations and water for the machine-gunners. Two men worked a belt-filling machine non-stop for 12 hours keeping up a supply of 250-round belts. One hundred new barrels were used up, and every drop of water in the neighbourhood, including the men’s drinking water and contents of the latrine buckets, went up in steam to keep the guns cool. And in that 12-hour period the ten guns fired a million rounds between them. One team fired 120,000 from one gun to win a five-franc prize offered to the highest-scoring gun. And at the end of that 12 hours, every gun was working perfectly and not one gun had broken down during the whole period. It was this absolute foolproof reliability which endeared the Vickers to every British soldier who ever fired one. It never broke down; it just kept on firing and came back for more. And that was why the Mark 1 Vickers gun was to remain the standard medium machine-gun from 1912 to 1968."

Weapons & War Machines - Batchelor & Hogg 1976

[Skybird]

The Spiegel article says:


The "das" from the last sentence refers to the previous sentence, so it doesn't look like the journalist invented something but refers to the Bundeswehr investigation. Talking about several hundred shots, also leads to the assumption that we are talking about at least 300 shots (mehrere is at least 3). This would add up to at least 10 magazines, which is also the ammo capacity an infantry soldier would normally carry.
I would love it when journalists at least provide a link or a scan of the original sources, today's Focus article from also lacks this... :-?


Yopur Spiegel quotes only mentions "several hundreds shots", at ranges of 300 meters, reducing the precision by one third (btw, one third of what? one third of a 100% hit score? One third of the ordinary hit probability when a firefight starts?)

Now note that this bases on the reports coming up early April. Indeed it was 1st April when the first reports came in, saying what you said: 300 m, longer firing sequences, rducing hit probability by one third.

Now note two things. First, new, additional coverage has been reported, today and yesterday for the most, saiyng that the problems are even worse. Now by reference to the BW internal paper the tlak is of 200 m, and the possibility that the wepaon completely breaks down.

Second, I took info from a board where BW veterans posted, or a soldiers blog it was and they commented on it. There it was posted that it is known by experience that ater having fired 3 magazines, the bullets spray by 1.2 meters at 200 meters. 3 magazines is 90 shots.

It is also reported today that the Materialprüfungsstelle of the BW has started additonal exmainations on a wider scale than the 89 rifles they have examined so far - and of which ALL suffer from the described symptoms.

The Spiegel quote of yours is not clear on whether the BW mentioned "several hundred shots" (by one rifle), or the journalist just had read something in that paper and wrapped it up in a wording by himself that maybe is a bit farther away from the truth. We all know how easily media and journalists do that all the time.

Haplo asked for exact naumbers: rounds fired, time, ranges, spreading patterns - that si what it would be about. An spread to any side of 1,2 meters at 200 sounds like much to me, so I ask about people knowing such data for other assault rifles.

When the Americans got into the operation at Mogadishu to capture Aidid'S cabinet, they were confronted with a battle that they did not expect and that lasted for over 24 hours, with quite some very intense close range urban fighting. Around 1000 Militias got killed and several thoiusand wounded, I think, and 18 Americans. I strongly doubt that their rifles were on the brink of unusability after having emptied just three cartridges, because many of their soldiers saw much more intense firing action. Maybe it was not as close and dramatic like painted in Ridley Scott'S movie (which necessarily condenses time and personal fates to pout it all into a movie), but still... If their rifles woulds have degraded so fast, then i think they would have had much higher losses, and soldiers that became prisoners of the militias.

[MH]

Haplo asked for exact naumbers: rounds fired, time, ranges, spreading patterns - that si what it would be about. An spread to any side of 1,2 meters at 200 sounds like much to me, so I ask about people knowing such data for other assault rifles.
.

I don't know any scientific data but 1,2 looks terrible to me.
M16 with with a scope,improved more powerful ammo and thicker long barrel can be very accurate above 300 meters.
Regular short one is ok up to 300.

1,2 spread meters look like bad...made in Germany designed in china?:D

[Skybird]

I don't know any scientific data but 1,2 looks terrible to me.
M16 with with a scope,improved more powerful ammo and thicker long barrel can be very accurate above 300 meters.
Regular short one is ok up to 300.

1,2 spread meters look like bad...made in Germany designed in china?:D
Mind you, 1,2 at 200 represents the error appearing not before the weapon became "too hot" (after three cartridges). If that claim is right.

In cold, normal condition, all what I find on the web says the G36 is extremely precise at 300-400 meters. The sight has markings for up to 800 meters, but I think they were a bit over-optimistic there. :D

Maybe before commencing battle we should sign a deal with the enemy so that after three empty magazins of the German shooter the enemy voluntarily withdraws or stops action right in place, until the weapon has cooled down again. Or one could make a gentleman'S agreement: the enemy throws over a bottle of cold water for the rifle (to shorten the time of interrupted combat), and the German answers the favour by trading him a handgrenade. :D

[MH]

Mind you, 1,2 at 200 represents the error appearing not before the weapon became "too hot" (after three cartridges). If that claim is right.


Question is haw this was achieved....you don't shoot like in Hollywood movies and expect the gun to work properly.
The issue should not happen when using the gun in controlled manner,that is in semi auto or very short bursts.

cartridges=magazines right?

[Schroeder]

According to an aquaintance on mine in ESTSOF who also use a G36 variant, the problem occurse only when the rifle is put into service in a role that should be filled by an LMG and overheating is a moot issue if proper triger discipline is maintained by troops.

Talking with some other friends who are either just active duty or former members of EDF who have come into contact with the G36 its pretty much the same thing. None of them had noticed the G36 overheating any more than the Galil's our regular troops are issed with and that the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

^This.
I call bull on the article.
When I was in the Bundeswehr in July 2001 we were the first draftees to get the G36. They came straight from the H&K factories and where not calibrated (once you had figured out where to aim you would still hit almost with every shot though). When we did some shooting where the score for each soldier counted 4 rifles where calibrated by the NCOs and were used by the whole platoon (roughly 30men). We did plenty of shooting with just these 4 rifles and I don't recall any issues with them.

[_dgn_]

What is an "assault rifle" and why this new arm was created ?

During WWII, the German Army needed a new weapon, with high fire rate and great stopping power, used at close or mid-range. It was a compromise between the MP 40 SMG (9mm - close range) and the standard rifle Kar98 (7.92mm - long range). So the Sturmgewehr ("assault rifle") was born.

It was intended as the adversary of the soviet PPSh 41 (71 rounds) as MP 40 had only 30/32 bullets in its magazine and the Mauser 98 only 5 (with bolt action).

Its use ? Close action. By example, in a "Panzerknacker" team : a soldier with its StG44 "cleaned" the back of a T34 from it's accompaniment infantry (generally equipped with a PPSh) while the other soldier used its Panzerfaust to destroy the tank.

A detail : the bullet (not the cartridge) used in the Sturmgewehr was the same as the one used in the standard Mauser rifle or in LMG or MMG (MG34 - MG42). So a large stopping power during close combats, and still much of energy to 300 m : the exact opposite of the 5.56mm ammunition ...

And the "assault" rifle after the war ? Soviets copied it and it was the AK-47. During the Indochina War, heresy about the place of this new weapon in the standard infantry squad started in the French Army. Against VietMinhs with their Kalashnikov, Frenchs could only oppose at the same distance the US M2 or US M3 Carbine (but with a poor stopping power).

So German Sturmgewehrs were given (2 specimens in each squad) in the infantry, but complementary to the collective MAC 24/29 LMG. The "assault rifle" became an individual LMG, but with a closer distance.

And the G36 ? It' s an assault rifle, used inside close range (combat range = 200 m). It's generally the same things for all assaulft rifles.

Recomanded using : single or short bursts. The German soldier wears 5 30 rounds magazines, but in combat situations, complementary ammunition can be given.

If you want fire with a good precision at 300 m (or higher), another specialised firearm is recommanded. But it's trying to increase the firepower of a squad, in order to "stress" (not to kill) the engaded ennemy.

But if you use C-Mags (100 rounds) with full auto (long bursts) for hitting targets at 300 m, it's not surprising that the G36 has a hot hand-shield and a very low precision.

If you want firepower for the good distance, use something which is intended for it : LMG as MG3 or Minimi, generally fitted with heavy barrel.

In 1980, French Military Staff wanted to replace all the various weapons with an unique one and to standardize the ammunition (and to reduce military instruction). It was really a headache for a platoon or campany leader.

In an armored infantry platoon, there was the 7.62 NATO for the 3 mounted MMG & 3 squad LMG, the 7.62 precision bullets for FRF1 sniper rifles, the 9 mm for Mat 49 SMG and MAC 50 pistols, 7.5 mm for the Mas 49/56 rifles. Plus 89 mm rockets for the LRAC (ATRL) and 20mm for the 3 mounted guns.

The weapons were varied, because the targets were varied and at various distances : rifles (combat range = 200 m), sniper rifles (range 300/600m), SMG (combat range = 50 m).

So FAMAS was introduced with its unique 5.56 ammunition. The Staff considered that it has a great fire rate (1000 rounds/min), about like the famous German MG-42 (1200 rounds/min). So the Staff considered that the LMGs were no more necessary in each squad and were removed. But on the battlefield, when the 6 25 rounds magazines for each FAMAS are empty ?

However, it's faster to add another 50 rounds belt to a M-60, an AA-52 or to a MG3. And when the barrel is to hot after constant shooting, only 3 seconds and the second barrel is installed.

It's what one rediscovered during military operations made by France. Rapidly, collective AA-52 (7.62 NATO) LMGs were again used, but for ammunition reasons, replaced by FN Minimis (5.56mm), considered as an individual LMG (standard equipment : with a spare barrel. Naturally ...).

For some years, the German Army didn't have any more experience on the battlefield. Maybe same bad solutions about using of firearms on the battlefield were selected by their Staff.

But reality is increasingly more concrete than the concepts ...

About this particular problem, I read this on the Heckler & Koch site (http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/company/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html). They naturally defend their products (generally "German quality"), but their analysis is rather interesting.

[MH]

When the Americans got into the operation at Mogadishu to capture Aidid'S cabinet, they were confronted with a battle that they did not expect and that lasted for over 24 hours, with quite some very intense close range urban fighting. Around 1000 Militias got killed and several thoiusand wounded, I think, and 18 Americans. I strongly doubt that their rifles were on the brink of unusability after having emptied just three cartridges, because many of their soldiers saw much more intense firing action. Maybe it was not as close and dramatic like painted in Ridley Scott'S movie (which necessarily condenses time and personal fates to pout it all into a movie), but still... If their rifles woulds have degraded so fast, then i think they would have had much higher losses, and soldiers that became prisoners of the militias.



That looks more like typical case of better training and self discipline vs a bunch of Guevaras.
Not just equipment issue.

[Morts]

Entire post
OT just a little bit ?

[TFatseas]

I've heard about the "wandering zero" for quite some time; the G36 had issues with melting during sustained fire as well.

The US Secret Service(maybe the Capitol police) bought some and promptly ditched them not to long after. That was a few years ago IIRC.

Look up the US Army XM8 trials and why they failed. They were having the same issues. Not surprising as the internals were the same as the G36.

[Skybird]

For whatever it is worth, I just copy in the message that in identical form got copied today by many news outlets over here. The quotations from an internal Bundeswehr paper, and the reaction by the current head of the Bundeswehr-Verband (kind of a union) I have marked in red, underlined, and bold.

Die Bundeswehr hat durch Untersuchungen beim Gewehr G36 weitreichendere Probleme fest gestellt als bislang bekannt. Wie die "Bild-Zeitung" unter Berufung auf ein internes Papier aus dem Verteidigungsministerium berichtet, haben Prüfungsergebnisse der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle die Bundeswehr alarmiert. In einem an den Verteidigungsminister gerichteten internen Schreiben heiße es, dass die Probleme mit dem G36 "aus militärischer Sicht einen erheblichen Mangel darstellen und von erheblicher Einsatzrelevanz sind". Laut "Bild-Zeitung" untersuchte die Wehrtechnische Dienststelle der Bundeswehr insgesamt 89 G36-Gewehre. In einer Bewertung heißt es laut der Zeitung: "Alle bisher untersuchten 89 G36 zeigen im heiß geschossenen Zustand eine Veränderung des mittleren Treffpunkts und eine Aufweitung des Streukreises derart, dass ein Gegner in einer Entfernung von 200 Metern nicht mehr sicher bekämpft werden kann. Dieser Sachverhalt stellt aus militärischer Sicht einen erheblichen Mangel an der Waffe dar." Die Bundeswehr veranlasste deshalb weitere Untersuchungen. Das Einsatzführungskommando informierte die Bundeswehr-Kontingente in einem vertraulichen Schreiben über die Probleme. So schreibt das Einsatzführungskommando abschließend über den Umgang mit dem G36: "Ist in einer taktischen Situation das Abkühlen des Gewehrs nicht möglich, und muss weitergeschossen werden, ist zu berücksichtigen, dass bei weiterem Feuerkampf Waffen komplett ausfallen können und/oder dauerhaft beschädigt werden." Der Bundeswehrverband forderte aufgrund der neuen Erkenntnisse eine schnelle Aufklärung. Vorsitzender Oberst Ulrich Kirsch sagte der Zeitung: "Die Meldungen über einsatzrelevante Auffälligkeiten beim Gewehr G36 sind ausgesprochen beunruhigend.Jetzt bedarf es schnellstmöglicher Aufklärung. Ich fordere das Verteidigungsministerium auf, diese Meldungen unverzüglich zu überprüfen und für Klarheit zu sorgen. Jetzt muss festgestellt werden, ob die Waffen tatsächlich für die Einsatzrealität in Afghanistan geeignet sind."

I really would like to know more details about the test conditions for those 89 rifles. Without knowing that, all this news is just a hint indicating an unwelcomed truth, but not solid infomation.

[Dan D]

The blog „Augengeradeaus“ (Eyes front!) which focuses on German military and security issues covers the whole story (in German).

Kein Aprilscherz: G36 (2) (http://augengeradeaus.net/2012/04/kein-aprilscherz-g36-2/comment-page-1/#comment-34663
)
Kein Aprilscherz: Wenn das Gewehr heißläuft
(http://augengeradeaus.net/2012/04/kein-aprilscherz-g36-2/comment-page-1/#comment-34663
)

[MH]

Look up the US Army XM8 trials and why they failed. They were having the same issues. Not surprising as the internals were the same as the G36.


I did some looking and it seems that the gun had some heat issues with polymeric materials(hence wondering zero problem i guess) and battery life.
It also looks that improvement had been made but the gun was still canceled for unclear reasons.
I did not find any mention of mechanical or barrel issues.
Also i'm curious what are the requirements to pass sustained fire test for a gun.
I think that on full auto i would be able to destroy barrel of almost every gun very quickly that is if it doesn't jam first....which probably is the criteria here.

[Stealhead]

It all largely depends on how a rifle is fired any what I like to call "combat rifles" M-16,G-36,G-3,FNFAL,AUG,AK-47 type of weapon is designed to allow automatic fire but only in short bursts and for short lengths of time.If you take any of these weapons and fire on fully automatic at any length it is going to heat the barrel very fast and start to have a negative effect on the weapons functionality and if you keep it the internal workings of the weapon will get so hot that it will not function until cooled down another area prone to over heating is the bolt if that gets too hot it will seize.

A combat rifle is designed more to allow rapid semi automatic fire a well designed one should have no trouble putting down 80~90 rounds per minute of rapid semi auto (that about 4 or 5 magazines for most weapons 20 or 30 per mag).Ideally you only want to fire 20~40 rounds per minute in a fire fight or your ammo will soon be low.The machine gun and the squad automatic weapon are the firearms that are designed for automatic fire.A machine gun has a much heavier barrel and on most they can be removed when hot and replaced with a cool one on top of that MGs have much sturdier bolts and feed mechanics allowing them to be able to handle sustained automatic fire.That being said even MGs perform better when lower RPMs are used and even a MG will over heat if pushed too hard.

The German Army uses the MG-36 as a SAW it is nothing more than a normal G-36 with a heavier barrel (but not as a true MG) and using a 100 round dual drum type magazine.I am better that the German troops are finding the MG-36 to a slight bit of a let down as in combat it turns out to be nothing more than a G-36 with a lager magazine but lacking true sustained automatic fire capability.Might be why they started fielding the MG-4 as of late which is a true belt feed MG.

The other issue is the pansy 5.56mm SS109 round used by NATO it has been found to be very disappointing in combat conditions it has very poor wound ballistics at long and medium ranges concern for this round began in 1993 with US troops in Somalia where complaining that the bullets just where too weak and not having effect requiring several rounds to put a man down.The reason that Germans are getting G3s with optics in Afghanistan is to give them a wepon with some actual stopping power at longer ranges.The Taliban has learned that they can stay outside the effective range of 90% of a NATO units 5.56mm weapons they make much use of the PKM which fires 7.62x54mm rounds is effective well beyond the range of 5.56mm they also use lots of RPGs which again can be fired from outside 5.56mm engagement ranges they just take RPGs and fire them barrage style and then rake a NATO unit with PKM fire then they disengage before the NATO forces have time to bring down superior fire support.

You will see in the next 5 or 6 years some nations either going back to older rifles but with improved construction like the G-3 or FNFAL and issuing them to a portion of squads or going with one of the many 6mm range rounds currently available that provide better stopping power and range but still allow some degree of controllability for rapid fire.Some elite US military units are also making use of heavier grain 5.56 rounds 70 grains over 45~60 grains which is what the SS109 has the 70+ grain rounds have proven to be much more effective in combat over the lighter grain rounds.

H&K makes some well designed weapons but sometimes I think they have a little too much pride and they get so caught up in themselves and they over look things that actually would make a better weapon.

energy of a few different rounds

SS109 5.56mm 1,303 ft·lbf (G-36,M-16,M249)
7.62x51mm 2,584 ft·lbf (G-3,FNFAL,MG3,M240)
7.62x39mm 1,529.4 ft·lbf (AK-47)
6.8mm SPC 1,694 ft·lbf (nothing military yet)
6.5x47mm Lapua 2,277 ft·lbf (nothing military yet)

[Platapus]

Trying to change an M-60 barrel in combat conditions is a world of fun.... not.

We used to think that it would be better just to carry an extra m-60 with you and switch out. :D

Anyone remember the "LC-80"?

[Skybird]

A link to the official statement issued by H&K early April in reply to the publication of the first reports about the G36.

http://www.heckler-koch.com/de/unternehmen/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html (http://www.heckler-koch.com/de/unternehmen/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html)

Of course, an outsider cannot judge what of that is true, and what is just self-defence of compoany ionterests in an attempt to deceive possible real iossues.

If they - H&K or the BW - want to solve the issue and priove the reliability of the rifle beyond all pubolished doubts, they really should release the testing conditions and the results of the examination of those quoted 89 rifles.

Investigative journalism lives by informants leaking material, else journalism cannot serve in the role of being one of the checking and counter-balancing entities in a democracy. H&K's complaint that the leak was probably illegal, must be seen in this light. If the leaked information helps to cure a possible major weakness of the armed forces, than I am all for illegally leaking such informations.

[_dgn_]

Question is haw this was achieved....you don't shoot like in Hollywood movies and expect the gun to work properly.
The issue should not happen when using the gun in controlled manner,that is in semi auto or very short bursts.


Only judicious people don't shoot like in Hollywood movies ...


The Bundeswehr in Afghanistan also uses a similar firefight doctrine as the US: pin down the enemy untill the cavalry arrives, so overheating might become a problem if you use an assault rifle in the role of a support gun. However this task should usually be fulfilled by the MG3 - or the LMG (MG4) which is still only sparely available, not sure how common the use of the latter is in Afghanistan.

... but the imitation is sometimes unfortunately obligatory !


The other issue is the pansy 5.56mm SS109 round used by NATO it has been found to be very disappointing in combat conditions it has very poor wound ballistics at long and medium ranges concern for this round began in 1993 with US troops in Somalia where complaining that the bullets just where too weak and not having effect requiring several rounds to put a man down.The reason that Germans are getting G3s with optics in Afghanistan is to give them a wepon with some actual stopping power at longer ranges.The Taliban has learned that they can stay outside the effective range of 90% of a NATO units 5.56mm weapons they make much use of the PKM which fires 7.62x54mm rounds is effective well beyond the range of 5.56mm they also use lots of RPGs which again can be fired from outside 5.56mm engagement ranges they just take RPGs and fire them barrage style and then rake a NATO unit with PKM fire then they disengage before the NATO forces have time to bring down superior fire support.


When the 7th Cavalry arrives in a Hollywood movie, all besieged are saved. Not the same thing in reality, when the AH-64 flie over survivors ...
But one can admit that the Talibans adapted perfectly to their NATO enemies and to their (bad ?) firefight doctrines.

That looks more like typical case of better training and self discipline vs a bunch of Guevaras.
Not just equipment issue.

Fire discipline is the main thing that a platoon leader must learn to his troop. It's the base of the combat, which is a collective action. Shoot or no shoot, on the orders : a difficult training. The precision of the shooting is additional, concerns only the soldiers individually, and can be (relatively) easily acquired.


To go to 5.56 mm was a politically motivated, no military decision over here. Firing a huge cloud of small callibre in close-distance infights maybe is better, but at longer distances and against covered targets I - by amateur's instinct - would prefer the heavier callibre automatically, even at the price of lower firing rate.


Maybe the heart of the matter ! Adoption of the 5.56 gauge by military forces belonging to NATO knew a certain number of reserves. Not because it had an US origin, but because its use under extreme conditions. For example, tests in the extreme cold resulted in the explosion of the barrel. Condensation in a very fine gun can gave this result when the 5.56 cartridge is struck. Naturally, no publicity was made on this kind of problems. But in front ot this particular difficulty, Soviets put chromium inside the barrel of their AK-47.
And I leave aside the problem about the various models of projectiles, they were only compatible, not completely interchangeable.

I really would like to know more details about the test conditions for those 89 rifles.

And what about used ammunitions ?

I really think those Kalashnikovs are better, tested hot and cold and battered for precision:

or the israelian UZI.

I agree with you about AK-47. But Uzi is only a SMG (for short distance).

Trying to change an M-60 barrel in combat conditions is a world of fun.... not.

But changing the hot barrel of a MG3 was easy, with an asbestos glove naturally. Maybe Bundeswehr must give a second life to these LMGs ....

OT just a little bit ?

???

[_dgn_]

A link to the official statement issued by H&K early April in reply to the publication of the first reports about the G36.

http://www.heckler-koch.com/de/unternehmen/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html (http://www.heckler-koch.com/de/unternehmen/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html)




Thanks, Skybird. In a preceding post, I gave the adress of the english version.

http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/company/news/detail/article/stellungnahme-aktuelle-medienberichte-zum-gewehr-g36.html




Investigative journalism lives by informants leaking material, else journalism cannot serve in the role of being one of the checking and counter-balancing entities in a democracy. H&K's complaint that the leak was probably illegal, must be seen in this light. If the leaked information helps to cure a possible major weakness of the armed forces, than I am all for illegally leaking such informations.



What made Julian Assange on this date ? :)

[the_tyrant]

I'm no expert on guns, but 1.20 meters at 100 meters is HORRIBLE
its 349 MOA!

from some quick googling, the standard for the m16 is 8 MOA, the FN FAL can do 0.5 MOA.

[Stealhead]

Trying to change an M-60 barrel in combat conditions is a world of fun.... not.

We used to think that it would be better just to carry an extra m-60 with you and switch out. :D

Anyone remember the "LC-80"?


That was one of the serious design flaws of the M-60 the bipod was attached directly to the barrel which meant that the gun was in two halves when the barrel was changed very bad in combat on the MG42(one of the supposed inspirations for the M-60) the barrel is inside a shroud and the bipod is part of the shroud so when the barrel is changed the gun is not in two halves.The FNMAG(aka the GPMG "Gimpy" to the Brits and the M240 to the US) was innovative in that it took the good desgin features of the MG42 but took away the bad high RPM the MG42 had too high a ROF and ate barrels up like made as well as ammo the FNMAG also was one of the first MGs to have the bipod mount closer towards the center of balance of the weapon and not near the end of the barrel and that improves stability alot.

The funny thing is that the FNMAG was available on the market in 1957 and many nations including the UK quickly made it their standard LMG but not the Us no sir we had to use the better engineered(not) M-60 until they started mounting a version of the FNMAG on M1A1s as the coaxial weapon some smart Marines realized that the gun was far better than the M-60 and they jury ordered stocks for them making the M-240G after that the DOD realized that the M-240 kicked the M-60s but and they made it the standard MG only 40 years after many nations had already discovered this.The M-240 is the only small to have received a 100% confidence rating from troops.

The selection of 5.56mm as the new NATO caliber had everything to do with the US NATO does what the US wants the US in the mid 70's was already set on 5.56 and that was that.


I have never heard of an LC-80 though did it go by another name? I assume your are referring to some firearm.Nothing shows up searching for LC-80 well Land Rovers do but no firearms.

As to H&K i think they are sort of snobby and "nothing is ever wrong with our guns" besides the fact that they are often over priced and they often have design flaws I have heard many owners of H&K pistols complain that the magazines are too fragile and that the safety catches and magazine release button/catch are too easily depressed by accident at the times when you do not want your magazine dropping out or inadvertently tripping the safety I have seen both of these complaints even come from some fairly experienced shooters.I do not own any H&K weapons myself but I have fired some G-36s with some German troops before and I honestly was not overly impressed with the G-36 now the G-3 I thought was a great rifle.

[Penguin]

Investigative journalism lives by informants leaking material, else journalism cannot serve in the role of being one of the checking and counter-balancing entities in a democracy.

Exactly, that's why I am more certain that the Spiegel had acces to internal test protocols from the Bundeswehr. They had acces to classified documents before, shown on several occasions in the past. That's also why I am sceptical of the new infos from yesterday, as their info source is Bild.
For the dirty foreigners: Bild is the equivalent of the British Sun, or the American National Enquirer. I wouldn't even trust them telling it rains while standing in a thunderstorm myself.


Yopur Spiegel quotes only mentions "several hundreds shots", at ranges of 300 meters, reducing the precision by one third (btw, one third of what? one third of a 100% hit score? One third of the ordinary hit probability when a firefight starts?)


As said, the Spiegel article is the only thing we have yet which cites facts and numbers, that's why I linked it. Btw: do you have a source about your 1.2 meter inaccuracy? No offense, but I trust a claim to have read it somewhere in the web less than antikristukes anecdotical evidence - even giving the fact that the Estonians use it in temperatures which are 120° lower than in Afghanistan :D
Also you first said it would be 1.2m on 100m, later on 200m. The question is also which test procedures the guy who makes the claim went through (scientific testing or just shooting experience)

For the reduction of accuracy to 1/3rd (not by), we can only speculate about the procedure, but a reproducible e test should have first of all an attached rifle, not shot from a shoulder or so. You first would calculate a medium point, the average where the shots hit the target aftzer several shots. Then according to the specification (which only the Bundeswehr and H&K know) you'd have a circular target with the medium point as a center, a rough estimate would be 10 - 20cm diameter. This would be the target area where a rifle after the Bundeswehr specifications would have to hit (with a cold barrel). So in our case, the recuded accuracy with a hot barrel would mean than only one out of 3 shots hits into this designated area.

[Skybird]

Oh my.

Bild is basing on an internal BW paper yesterday - and all others yesterday copied from Bild. ;) They even said that.

The story unfolded in two stages. Yesterday was second stage.

First stage was three weeks ago. When Spiegel, Focus, Welt and others first mentioned the issue. But three weeks ago the given description was a bit tamer. The description now is worse.

The "one third issue", the formulation was "um ein Drittel". And that translates into "by one third". The conbfusion is increasingk, since others said "um bis zu zwei Drittel". I do not rule out that some clever journalist again messed up their number understanding: from full - reducing by one third - down to two third remaining, or vice versa. Its is journalists writing the articles, most likely those that suually write celver comments on economy, poltiicans and their famous quotes and the latest dress of Merkel or Ashton.

The 1,2 meter claim was by a former BW soldier in one of the military or veteran or Bundeswehr blogs there are in German. There were many popping up on the issue when googling with "G36 heiß präzision" or a combination like that.

Other such entries explained that the heavy use of multipolymeric materials (plastic) blocks heat transportation and cooling, or leads to inner distortion of the weapon frame. The prohblem is not the barrel wich is said to be of solid quality (and of cours enot made of plastic!), but the frame and the way it messes up the cooling of the barrel. Not just with the G36, but many other latest generation weapons making heavy use of these materials.

[MH]

This is how you can do it.
Fiest you zero in the gun at 25 m with something like this or equivalent for the gun and sights... like penguin said.
http://legacy.uploaded.fresh.co.il/3cda6a2d06ac5968.jpg


http://2004.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2004/02/23/441550.jpg


Then you rock and roll a bit and repeat the test.
That way you can see the difference very well.


(thats a lot of gun talking peww lol)

[Penguin]

Bild is basing on an internal BW paper yesterday - and all others yesterday copied from Bild. ;) They even said that.


No, Bild claims to base it on an internal paper :03:

The only reliable source they mention would be Ulrich Kirsch.

I found something mentioning overheating in this video from 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyO-SCiqfx0 (at 4:38), though it was about a 9 hour(!) firefight. For the non-German speakers: they say some weapons failed due to overheating.
Interesting is also the fire discipline, in the beginning you can clearly see and hear the M4 firing auto bursts, as it should be in a support role, however you can also notice G36s firing full auto (not only short bursts)

So it should also be tested if it would make sense to consider what the Americans did after their experiences from Vietnam: when they introduced the M16 A2, they removed the capability to fire full auto, it was reduced to 3-shot-bursts, mainly for ammo conservation reasons. I don't know how much of a problem overheating was back there, but it is definitely a side effect to prevent the barrel from getting hot too quickly.


edit: arrgh, your text grew :):
The Spiegel article, as the original source who makes the claims clearly states: "auf ein Drittel" - to 1/3

[antikristuseke]

I do not own any H&K weapons myself but I have fired some G-36s with some German troops before and I honestly was not overly impressed with the G-36 now the G-3 I thought was a great rifle.

The G-3 is a nightmare in sandy conditions. I served with a G-3 variant in 2008/09, the Swedish AK4. It is a reliable weapon in almost all other respects, but sand will quickly foul the weapon because it can easily get between the bold and frame via the cocking handle slot cut into the weapon. When that happens you are either going to have a really hard time getting the bold moving again or you are completely **** out of luck, this is a problem that gets eorse the hotter the weapon is and the G-3 does overheat quite fast if you maintain a high rate of fire with single shots.

No offense, but I trust a claim to have read it somewhere in the web less than antikristukes anecdotical evidence - even giving the fact that the Estonians use it in temperatures which are 120° lower than in Afghanistan

ESTSOF and our Scouts battalion are deployed to Afghanistan ;)

[Oberon]

Heck, didn't Germany invent the barrel change in the MG42?

[antikristuseke]

No, the MG-34 also had a quick change barrel. Though don't have any info on earlier weapons with quickly changeable barrels.

Edit: After a quick search the first weapon to feature a quick change barrel system I could find is the ZB vz. 26 adopted in 1924 by the Czech. Not sure if it is the actual first though.

[Skybird]

No, Bild claims to base it on an internal paper :03:

The only reliable source they mention would be Ulrich Kirsch.

I found something mentioning overheating in this video from 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyO-SCiqfx0 (at 4:38), though it was about a 9 hour(!) firefight. For the non-German speakers: they say some weapons failed due to overheating.
Interesting is also the fire discipline, in the beginning you can clearly see and hear the M4 firing auto bursts, as it should be in a support role, however you can also notice G36s firing full auto (not only short bursts)

So it should also be tested if it would make sense to consider what the Americans did after their experiences from Vietnam: when they introduced the M16 A2, they removed the capability to fire full auto, it was reduced to 3-shot-bursts, mainly for ammo conservation reasons. I don't know how much of a problem overheating was back there, but it is definitely a side effect to prevent the barrel from getting hot too quickly.


edit: arrgh, your text grew :):
The Spiegel article, as the original source who makes the claims clearly states: "auf ein Drittel" - to 1/3

:damn:
:dead:
@ Penguin exclusively and thus in German (allows me more precision, and is irrelevant for this thread's original content),


Von Stöksken auf Hölzken, und alles bis aufs i-Tüpfelchen ausdiskutieren, oder was? Also momentan tötest Du mir a Bisserl den Nerv, echt.

Auf die Artikel von vor drei Wochen, nahm ich keinen Bezug. Mein Opening bezieht sich auf die Artikellage gestern. Fast alle Medien gestern bezogen sich auf teilweis identisch abgedruckte Artikel, die ich deshalb nicht zitierte, weil in der Regel eine deutsche Textangabe in diesem englischsprachigen Forum wenig Sinn macht, der Inhalt der Meldung aber inhaltlich unstrittig sein sollte in der Art, wie ich ihn zusammenfaßte. Die Bild hat es sogar in der Printausgabe gebracht: die Bild hat ein internes Papier der Materialprüfstelle der BW, in dem die von mir genannten, rot markierten Textstellen enthalten sind, so Bild.

Mag sein daß der Spiegel vor drei Wochen ein anderes oder das gleiche Paspier vorliegen hatte, oder nicht. Ich weiß es nicht. Ich nahm keinen Bezug darauf.

Tatsache ist, daß einige Medien gestern auch andeuteten, daß in den drei Wochen sich die Verdachtmomente - so nenne ich sie, weil die Daten nicht direkt veröffentlicht wurden - verdichteten, dahingehend, daß das Problem noch gravierender ist als zuvor beschrieben wurde.

Zu den überregionalen Zeitungen wie Welt, Focus, FAZ und Spiegel, googelte ich im verlauf des Threads noch weiter, stieß auf regionale Kleinzeitungen, die teilweis identische Textmeldungen veröffentlichten wie den, den ich weiter oben zitierte, und auf diverse Blogs von BW Anbgehörigen, BW-Fans, Soaldatenblogs und Militaria-blogs. Dort wurde auf existierende Hitze- und Präzisions-Probleme hingewiesen, von Leuten die durch eigene Angabe und den Stil ihres Posting mir den Eindruck vermittelten, Erfahrung mit dem G36 zu haben und zu wissen, wovon sie redeten, in technischer Hinsicht. Aus einem solchen Blog stammt die Angabe über eine Abweichung von 1.2 Meter auf 100 Meter in heißgeschossenem Zustand. Ich habe das als solches wohl kenntlich gemacht.

Aus solchen Quellen entnahm ich auch, daß das G3 selbst kalt eine lausige Präzision hat trotz des größeren Kalibers (bei der DDR-Armee stand das G3 mehrheitlich in sehr schlechtem Ruf), und daß das MG3 eigentlich sehr gut sei, aber lausig schnell heiß wird - was wohl kein Wunder ist bei der rekordverdächtigen Schußfrequenz in seiner Klasse zu seiner Zeit. Aber das nur am Rande.

Dann das "eine Drittel" und "zwei Drittel". Meine Zweifel an der sprachlichen Schlampigkeit von schreibenden Journalisten gründet sich darauf, daß viele nicht wissen, wovon sie schreiben und sie dazu neigen, komplexe Angaben von Information eines spezifischen Sachgebiets in möglichst griffige Formulierungen pressen zu wollen, und das schnell. Meine Zweifel gründen sich darauf, daß tatsächlich in mehreren vereinzelten Meldungen - in dreien, wenn ich mich recht entsinne - Angaben in Bezug auf "Drittel" gemacht wurden. Nur war es jedes Mal etwas anderes, was gesagt wurde. Mal wurde die Präzision "auf zwei Drittel gesenkt". Mal wurde sie "um ein Drittel" gesenkt. Mal reduzierte sie sich "um ein Drittel". Offensichtlich haben da mehrere Leute was durcheinander gebracht, haben vielleicht sogar eigenmächtig Subtraktionsoperationen durchgeführt, obwohl sie nicht Kopfrechnen können. Was die BW tatsächlich gesagt hat in ihrem Papier, wird nirgendwo gesagt. Was der Spiegel und andere angeben, sind lediglich selbstverfasste Formulierungen, die obendrein widersprüchlich sind. Und alle gestern nahmen auf die Bild und deren vorliegendes internes BW Papier Bezug. Wat solls nu sein, eh? Und über die Testbedingungen - Schußzahl, Munitionsart, Entfernung - wurde in allen Fällen gar nichts gesagt. Es heißt jedoch, daß die 5.52 mm Muni, die die BW momentan in Deutschland ausgibt, ungewöhnlich leicht sei, hieß es in den Kommentaren zweier Blogs. Und das ist der Präzision und Durchschlagskraft, vermute ich, nicht zuträglich, zusätzlich zur übrigen Kritik an diesem kleinen Kaliber. Wie sie's machen, weiß ich nicht, Treibladungen verändert vielleicht. Im Sportpräzisionsschießen, Kurzwaffe, spielt das eine SEHR große Rolle, zumindest das weiß ich zuverlässig aus erster Hand.

Darüber hinaus setze ich aufgrund der katastrophal abgenommen Qualität des sprachlichen Ausdrucks gedruckter Meldungen in Internet- und Print-Zeitungen kein blindes Vertrauen in die Präzision der sprachlichen Formulierungen - zu oft habe ich schon etwas gelesen, und später stellte es sich heraus, daß falsch zitiert wurde, aus dem Zusammenhang gerissen wurde, oder Angaben, über die berichtet wurde, in unzutreffende sprachliche Entsprechungen gekleidet wurden. Manchmal spielt auch eine gewollte ideologisch motivierte Zielvorgabe eine einflußnhemnede Rolle. Leider ist Suggestivsprache in der Zeitung heutzutage genauso häufig, wie der verfälschende verbale Transport einer Information durch mißverständlichen oder schlichtweg falschen verbalen Ausddruck. Daher meine grundsätzlich gemeinte Andeutung, daß der Spiegel in dem von Dir zitierten Artikel von vor drei Wochen, der eine komplexen internen Bericht obendrein in einer irrwitzig kurzen Meldung komprimiert, möglicherweise Vereinfachungen oder Fehlformulierungen enthält, wie sie leider heutzutage überall anscheinend zum täglichen Brot der Schreiberlinge gehören. Das Journalistenhandwerk ist völlig auf den Hund gekommen, die meisten berichten nicht präzise, sondern plappern, oder kopieren unhinterfragt. Die Kooperation von Internetzeitungen macht es nicht gerade besser. Der Text, den ich irgendwo vorher zitierte, fand sich in den zitierten Originalformat in mehreren verschiedenen Zeitungen aus ganz Deutschland! Wenn einer unüberprüft nur vom anderen übernimmt, dann verfielfältigen sich auch die Fehler entsprechend.

So, weiteres Mikroskopieren von allerkleinsten Hölzken-Komponenten bitte ohne meine weitere Teilnahme.


What is needed now is the original report by the Materialprüfungsstelle of the German army, and exact information about the testing conditions and numerical results. Until then we only have the output of some uncaring inkspitters.

Does anyone have information about the claimed cmpaign against H&K? They mentioned in their announcement that they see themselves as victims of such a campaign. Beside the usual demands in germany to always tighten the weapon laws for sport shooters, I am not aware of any such campaign against H&K currently - not by pacifists, and not by business rivals.

[CaptainMattJ.]

I suppose it might be more of an issue in today's standards with our space-age materials and "expert" knowledge of ballistics and physics.

Back in WW2, Most gun barrels would overheat easily. Hence the mainly watercooled browning .30 and the air cooled, easy swap out barrels MG42

In this respect i had respect for the germans in WW2, not their nazi affiliation mind you, but their superb engineering and big scale thinking was awesome in scope and fascinating.

The Germans made excellent weapons. Although their biggest designs, such as the Panther, Tiger II, Tiger 1, and some Tank destroyers were mechanically unreliable because of its incredibly high tech (at the time) designs and huge weight, the Germans had some amazing equipment.

And they make great weapons today. Weapons such as the MP5, MG3, UMP45, MP7, variants of the M16, and so on. Every company has their designs that cant quite perform as well as it should. I dont think that the fix would be very hard, Heckler & koch simply need to solve an issueo f overheating, and the G36 will be even more effective. The G26 is a GREAT rifle, and aside from its slight overheating problems its a fantastic Assault rifle.

Germans still make excellent stuff. And ive told people, that if i had to live in any other country in the world, id probably live in Germany. :)


(Edit, my 1000th post :woot:)

[Stealhead]

You mean to say that the Germans made many excellent but over-engineered weapons their problem was that they could not let go of all that design in a war of mass production such things hurt you as they make the machine more costly to produce and much more difficult to maintain in the field.Take the both the Panther and the Tiger I both where over designed and the panther was rushed into service a problem that both tanks had where the wheels they had very close spacing bad news in the Russian climes where mud and ice would freeze up these close gaps during the night it was a problem never fully solved and the Soviets took advantage when they could and often they liked to attack in the early morning to take advantage of the frozen conditions in fact the Soviets became masters of night/early morning combat as the war progressed as this was a weak point for the Germans.

The MG42 was a simplified design inspired by the MG34 which was much more expensive to produce in my opinion the MG42 was the best weapon designed by the Germans during the war because it was one of the few that was actually designed with ease of production in mind and actually had more simplified design than what came before it.

The MG3 is nothing more than an MG42 chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO therefore it is not really a redesign more than an improved MG42 think of it as an M16A4 being the end of the line to the M16E1(the first model pre foward assist).the G36 is really an average rifle because it does not perform in a notably superior manner than a current M-16 which sets the standard more or less for modern military firearms.It has the same problem that the M-16 has as well the rapid over heating which is funny because the H&K versions of the M-16 the HK416 and 417 solved the overheating issue of the M-16 design by making use of a gas tapping piston system rather than a gas port system the HK416 is just an M4 with a different upper receiver then bolt and everything else is an M4 in fact the ones that they hoped to sell to the US military where just that an upper receiver kit.

Another sign that few are coming up with something that really changes the game is that the DOD has tested several weapons that are supposed to be much better than the M4/16 yet in tests they prove to only be marginally better and not worth the cost of procuring you can easily just buy an improved gas tapping kit for the M-16/M4 for only few hundred bucks some are better than others I am sure but they reduce the overheating issue alot
and you can install one yourself easily I have one on my AR-15 and it keeps the bolt so cool that you can take it out and hold it in your hand if you tried this with a a regular AR-15.M-16 you would get burned.

The G-36 now its over heating problem lies elsewhere because the G-36 already uses the cooler gas piston set up so the issue lies elsewhere but it does prove that H&K did fail to really put the G-36 through the ringer when they tested it because an over heating problem should become very obvious if it is unreasonably rapid in occurring I bet they knew about it but the German Army had too much faith in H&K due to past history.

H&K makes most of its money on the US civil market(military's usually buy in bulk so the money that pays for research for must gun makers comes from non military buyers who buy at market prices) and guys who think that H&K makes the best guns in the world and are wiling to pay $200~$400 more for their pistol,rifle over just as good or better firearms from other gun makers H&K is the gun that the flashy guy that probably can not field strip his gun and takes his gun to a gun smith just for cleaning owns.

@antikristuseke I only fired the G3 at a military range on a joint training day while stationed in Germany based on my experience there it seemed decent although I condenser the FNFAL its direct competitor to be a far superior design(I might be biased though I do own an SA-58) the bolt operation on the G3 really sloppy to me and counter intuitive I can see it getting fouled easily with dirt as you mention.Funny thing is a G3 will cost you often twice as much as any FNFAL or CETME(Spanish G3 or should I say that the G3 is a German CETME how innovative is H&K really?) you can buy a used CETME for several hundred less than a G3(HK91) and an old FNFAL will run a couple hundred less and now you can buy new SA58 US made FAL for a good price. I have seen chepo HK91 clones go for what a quality made AR or FNFAL or even a Springfeild M1A(M-14) goes for new.

I lived in Germany for 4 years as an American military member I do like the German culture as a whole but as Skybird often says there are alot of problems in Germany more so than the US.I would own a nice house in the woods in Germany and visit it and German friends of mine a few times a year but I would not want to live there and deal with their many current problems.My German friends are more than happy to come to the Us and visit me though when they need a break form the ratte race.

[MH]

Another sign that few are coming up with something that really changes the game.....
.

That's very good point.
A lot about guns is branding while army should keep it practical and simple when ever possible.
That is unless it is uber reach army.:haha:

Up to date i have seen a lot improvements in my army service around proven m16 design while new guns usually went through a lot troubleshooting and some became useless.

[Stealhead]

I think that is why Congress got involved at one time there where several programs going on the SCAR,the XM-8 to name some big ones Congress pretty much said

1.You need to first decide what should be done with the 5.56mm question stay with it and change to a heavier grain round(solid evidence of their improved combat performance going back to 2002 with SOF use of high grain boat tailed rounds)
2.If you stay with 5.56mm you need to pick the most effective design if that means that the current weapon with some improvements fits that bill than so be it.

I understand that the XM-8 program got exposed by another gun maker (Colt or FN) and they where going to also sue H&K in court becuase they did not go though proper DOD testing channels(in other words they found high ranking men that liked H&K and invited them to a BBQ and they shot some XM-8s and with a hint hint wink wink said come see us when you retire might work something out if you get this gun accepted)

I have heard that tests where done by the US Army a few years back and they found that the current M16/4 with composite mags(the STANAG mags have always been a bit lame prone to damage from drop page and spring wear in Nam smart troops only put 27 rounds into a 30 and 17 into a 20 rounder I gather this is becoming common practice again or they buy with their own money better synthetic mags)


On top of that a gas piston system kit can be procured for low cost (if not from H&K) and greatly reduce heating and jamming issues from dirt and filth and many companies also make upper receivers that allow a 6.5 or 6.8 mm round to be used this is useful as a unit could swap out the uppers based on the mission.When your current weapon system can be improved at much lower cost why go to an entirely new one that will take 4 or 5 years to become fully implemented and that is just active duty units in 1990~91 some units still had A1s in common use.These gas piston systems are be made by small American owned companies as well.

Like I said before i think that the German/Austrian/Swiss gun makers are too caught up in them selves they think they are the best of the best and are too snooty to realize that others can and do make as good as and better weapons and often at lower cost.

This is why many hate the AK-47 it is simple and not fancy nothing that does not need to be there.True it takes ideas from other weapons(and those who say that it is a copy of the STG44 know not of what they speak how do I know this the two guns have differing operating systems they are both gas systems but beyond that nothing is similar ) Kalashnikov most certainly was not the only designer that is for certain and there is strong evidence that he put more into the prototypes but due to lack of experiences in engineering others made most of the improvements to make the weapon practical it is not the perfect wepon by any means but it works very well and is very easy to operate even by a poorly trained shooter.

[MH]

I understand that the XM-8 program got exposed by another gun maker (Colt or FN) and they where going to also sue H&K in court becuase they did not go though proper DOD testing channels(in other words they found high ranking men that liked H&K and invited them to a BBQ and they shot some XM-8s and with a hint hint wink wink said come see us when you retire might work something out if you get this gun accepted)
.
Interesting...that explains it.

I have heard that tests where done by the US Army a few years back and they found that the current M16/4 with composite mags(the STANAG mags have always been a bit lame prone to damage from drop page and spring wear in Nam smart troops only put 27 rounds into a 30 and 17 into a 20 rounder I gather this is becoming common practice again or they buy with their own money better synthetic mags)
.




I can confirm that it was always an issue with stock m16 magazines that had been designed as disposable(one use) according to my knowledge....uber rich army:haha:
You never pack full mag and they always need to be well checked.:yep:




This is why many hate the AK-47 it is simple and not fancy nothing that does not need to be there.True it takes ideas from other weapons(and those who say that it is a copy of the STG44 know not of what they speak how do I know this the two guns have differing operating systems they are both gas systems but beyond that nothing is similar ) Kalashnikov most certainly was not the only designer that is for certain and there is strong evidence that he put more into the prototypes but due to lack of experiences in engineering others made most of the improvements to make the weapon practical it is not the perfect wepon by any means but it works very well and is very easy to operate even by a poorly trained shooter.


Ak 47 has big issue when it comes to using attachments and keeping them zeroed in...its becomes very cumbersome.




......

[CaptainMattJ.]

You mean to say that the Germans made many excellent but over-engineered weapons their problem was that they could not let go of all that design in a war of mass production such things hurt you as they make the machine more costly to produce and much more difficult to maintain in the field.Take the both the Panther and the Tiger I both where over designed and the panther was rushed into service a problem that both tanks had where the wheels they had very close spacing bad news in the Russian climes where mud and ice would freeze up these close gaps during the night it was a problem never fully solved and the Soviets took advantage when they could and often they liked to attack in the early morning to take advantage of the frozen conditions in fact the Soviets became masters of night/early morning combat as the war progressed as this was a weak point for the Germans.

The MG42 was a simplified design inspired by the MG34 which was much more expensive to produce in my opinion the MG42 was the best weapon designed by the Germans during the war because it was one of the few that was actually designed with ease of production in mind and actually had more simplified design than what came before it.

The MG3 is nothing more than an MG42 chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO therefore it is not really a redesign more than an improved MG42 think of it as an M16A4 being the end of the line to the M16E1(the first model pre foward assist).the G36 is really an average rifle because it does not perform in a notably superior manner than a current M-16 which sets the standard more or less for modern military firearms.It has the same problem that the M-16 has as well the rapid over heating which is funny because the H&K versions of the M-16 the HK416 and 417 solved the overheating issue of the M-16 design by making use of a gas tapping piston system rather than a gas port system the HK416 is just an M4 with a different upper receiver then bolt and everything else is an M4 in fact the ones that they hoped to sell to the US military where just that an upper receiver kit.

....

Over engineered, yes. Rushed, yes. Had the russians not been ready to launch a MASSIVE offensive into Poland and Germany itself, the panther might not have been rushed into service.

And yes, the over-engineering turned out to be too cost inefficient for the war. But i cant help but admiring the tanks for what they were. If that panther had been finished, it wouldve been a wonderful tank. It already was a wonderful tank, but to fix its flaws wouldve meant a bigger problem for the soviets.

And, with the MG3, i know its simply an MG42 for a different round. But why take away a design that works? the AK-74 is simply an upgraded AK-47, while following all of its basic principles. If a design works, it should be used to the fullest.

[Stealhead]

With the AK-74 I agree with you on the MG3 not so much.The MG42 was another weapon that falls into the overrated department (I think that no firearm is perfect all are a compromise in some way) the MG42s big weakness is the high ROF true this can be deadly but at the same time it is an Achilles heal because barrel life is very low with a such a high ROF and in WWII allied troops learned to flank a German MG position get very close wait for the pause of a barrel change and toss some grenades let them go off and rush the position killing any not already dead (this tactic is well illustrated in Band of Brothers in one episode or so) another issue was ammo consumption the high ROF meant that German units had to be very careful not to consume their ammo supply to rapidly.This is why most post war MG designs all of which did borrow some form the MG42 all where designed with a lower ROF.

Also even though the Germans did have lots of advanced designs most troops right up until the end carried the Kar98 that was the most common long arm in the German military during WWII.One thing I will hand to German soldiers is that they where very willing to embrace a better firearm when they found one on the Eastern front many German troops used captured Soviet small arms the SVT40(which inspired the G41 and G42) was a very popular choice as was the PPSH41(they could easily fire German 7.65mm Luger)and the PPS-42 was very popular with Germans as well.

To be fair though the MG3 is not merely a rechambered MG42 it has several other improvements the caliber swap out would go to the MG42/59 some of those where actually MG42s that got re-manufactured.The MG3 can also use different bolts which either increase or lower the ROF so they did it seems feel that the ROF was a little too high in the original design.Alas the MG4 is already in production and it will slowly replace the older MG3 in some roles though not all I am sure as it fires 5.56mm and that round is too light to be effective in an LMG role so the MG3 will be around for a while yet.Of course I look at the MG4 and question what this design can do that the already proven M249(FN MINIMI) can not do just fine maybe it is because the FN is made by sissy Belgians.

[MH]

I look at the MG4 and question what this design can do that the already proven M249(FN MINIMI) can not do just fine maybe it is because the FN is made by sissy Belgians.

You CAN"t use this gun in desert conditions contrary to 7.62 FN that simply shoots.
I have never seen this gun shooting more than few bullets without jamming....went to junk yard.
memories.... lol

[_dgn_]

Those who say that the PPSH41 could easily fire German 7.65mm Luger know not of what they speak how do I know this the two calibers are totally different and not interchangeable.

Only 7.62 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser are identical.

From left to right : Tokarev, Mauser and Luger.

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2012/04/27/120427051018722326.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=120427051018722326.jpg)

[Penguin]

sorry for the semi-relevant text in German, folks; as Sky can't receive any PMs, I gotta put my boring reply in here


Von Stöksken auf Hölzken, und alles bis aufs i-Tüpfelchen ausdiskutieren, oder was? Also momentan tötest Du mir a Bisserl den Nerv, echt.

Dito, ebenso! :D

Es geht um folgendes:
Wenn wir die Abschreibmentalität anprangern, sollte man zumindest versuchen einen besseren Standard zu halten. Deshalb habe ich wenn, ich mich auf den kürzlichen Bericht beziehe, immer auf die Bild bezogen, ebenso wie in Hinblick auf dem zetilich früheren Artikel der Spiegel die Quelle der Meldung ist. Ich hatte auch eine kurzw Suche im web gemacht, nirgendwo stand mehr drin als in den Originalmeldungen. Nirgendwo stand eine Formulierung, die eine eigene Recherche zumindest andeutet, etwa : "Auf Anfrage bei sowundso erhielten wir keinen Kommentar". Die gleiche Zeit die irgendwelche Schreiber zum umformulieren benötigen, ist die gleiche Zeit die man ebenso nutzen könnte um zum Hörer zu greifen oder eine kurze Email mit Bitte um Stellungnahme an relevante Stellen zu schicken. Deshalb ist es irrelevant wie das Kleinkleckersbacher Dorfblatt eine Meldung abtippt, zumindest solange dieses keine eigene Recherche betreibt.

Aus diesem Grund habe ich auch nocmal nach deinen Zahlen gefragt, weil du mal von 100, mal von 200m schreibst – ebenso mit dem Wert der Präzisionsabweichung, da du under dem Spiegel-Zitat, wo von 1/3 sdie rede ist, wieder etwas von 2/3 schreibst. Das ist keine Haarspalterei, sondern eine Fokussierung auf Fakten. Wenn mich ein Artikel tiefergehend interessiert, versuche ich immer die Quelle auf der sich ein Artikel bezieht, heranzuziehen, bei Straftaten etwas den Polizeibericht, bei wissenschaftlichen Meldunten die Veröffentlichung in Fachzeitschriften oder Thesenpapieren – oder eben beim "Berufen -auf-die-Zeitung welche-die-Meldung-zuerst-veröffentlichte" auf das Originalmedium.

Deshalb ist auch die Quelle der 1,20m Abweichung von Bedeutung. Du hast gesehen, das diese hier im Thread schon mehrfach von anderen Mitgliedern aufgegriffen wurde und ich meine Zweifel habe, das die Person die dieses schreib, einen Beschusstest nach wissenschaftlichen Kriterien durchgeführt hat. Ohne Möglichkeit die Quelle zu befragen, wie das Ergebnis zustande kam, ist es halt nur eine Bahuptung die jemand im Netz schreibt, deshalb meine Frage nach dem link zur Quelle, dann könnte man dort nochmal nachhaken. Übrigens: Originalquellen sollte man ungeachtet der Sprache verlinken, erstmal sind wir nicht die einzigen hier wo Deutsch sprechen tun ;), andererseits ist es im Zeithalter der Internet-Übersetzungshilfen möglich, das sich auch andere zumindest einen groben Überblick verschaffen.

Der Spiegel-Artikel hatte zumindest einige Daten, die wir nicht zwar selber nicht überprüfen können, aber er bezieht sich auf eine konkretes Papier aus dem die Zahlen stammen ("hervorgehen") auch wenn es natürlich journalistisch aufbereitet ist, d.h. der Versuch es allgemeinverständlich zu formulieren. Konkrete Zahlen brauchen und dürfen nicht umformuliert werden, deshalb gebe ich diesen eine Relevanz. Und hey, der Schreiber schreibt zumindest Gewehr und nicht Machinengewehr :yep: - wie so oft schon gelesen wenn es um Sturmgewehre geht. Die Nichtveröffentlichung zumindest eines Ausschnittes des Originalpapiers und die unscharfe Formulierung seitens des Spiegel ist zumindest erklärbar durch den Schutz des Informanten, falls das Schreiben etwa Rückschlüsse auf dessen Herkunft geben könnte - es kann aber auch einfache Faulheit sein.

Wie schon geschrieben hat der Spiegel eine Tradition, das ihm interne Papiere zugespielt werden. Ja, bei der Bild ist es auch so, doch man muss nicht Walraff gelesen haben um zu wissen wie die Bild arbeitet und wenn diesem Blatt Infos zugetragen werden, gilt auch immer die Frage welche Interessen die Person verfolgt, die dieses tut: Cui bono? Gilt es nur eine breite Öffentlichkeit zu schaffen, die die Bild zweifelsohne darstellt, oder geht es darum jemanden ans Bein zu pissen.

Ich stehe der ganzen Sache übrigens neutral gegenüber, ich finde auch das die Junx vom Bund anständige Ausrüstung haben sollen, wenn man seinen Arsch riskiert dann mit anständigen Equipment, wenn also Schmu seitens H&K's, der Bundeswehr oder des Verteidigungsminesteriums aufgedeckt wird: gut so!

So, denke damit is alles jesacht, ansonsten schlage ich ein Duell im Morgengrauen in Arma 2 vor, ich nehme das G36, du das G3 :arrgh!:
Die Darstellung der Optik kommt zwar an die Realität nicht heran, aber zumindest überhitzt die Knarre dort nicht, obwohl an weltfälischen Dickschädeln warscheinlich schon größere Kaliber gescheitert sind :D

Shalom aleikum! :cool:

[/end of kraut lingo]

------------------------

Regarding an anti-H&K campaign:

The only recent event that comes to my mind was when it was reported that the G36 was in use in Libya. It was later discovered that those guns came from a legal arms deal with Egypt, they were all exported with knowledge and license of the German govenment. Both, the manufacturer and the relevant state entities came under fire, but I am not aware of any ongoing campaign.

[Stealhead]

Those who say that the PPSH41 could easily fire German 7.65mm Luger know not of what they speak how do I know this the two calibers are totally different and not interchangeable.

Only 7.62 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser are identical.

From left to right : Tokarev, Mauser and Luger.

http://nsa21.casimages.com/img/2012/04/27/120427051018722326.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=120427051018722326.jpg)


Alright smarty pants I mixed up two rounds in my head you want a cookie now?
I could not think of the exact round and the Luger round popped into my head.


tilting bolt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oqEGnSW-NQ

rotating bolt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CmrzmNWnQU

Oh and the SVT38/40 had a tilting bolt long before the STG44 was on the drawing board so if anything the Germans took a good idea from the Russians first.It is a matter of dispute but either Fedor Tokarev or Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov but one of the two designed the tilting bolt.Ever gun design most certainly borrows ideas from previous designs it really annoys me when people try to say that the AK-47 is a "copy" of the STG44 when the STG44 itself has parts and ideas taken from other designs just the same not to mention the fact that they are very different in many respects.

My point about the AK and the STG44 being very different in general functionality most certainly stands the AK no doubt took design ideas from the STG but it is no direct clone.Sorry if you disagree with that but you are incorrect in thinking that.

STG44 stripped: http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/fieldstripp/strp_mp44.htm


AK47 stripped: http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/ak/akm/akmapart1024w.jpg

Yes they are just like two peas in a pod.....not!

They have entirely different type bolt operating systems and entirely different the STG44 uses a gas operated tilting bolt the AK47 uses a gas operated rotating bolt.

Now let us look at two weapons that are identical the M-16A2/4 and the Canadian C7/A1 rifle the latter being a direct copy of the M-16A2 but only having full auto rather than 3 round burst(and this of little matter as this is effected merely by a selector switch and sear)

Ar-15/M-4/M-16 all same on the inside :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUWvojbYJVI

C7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnXjs7oh1k

Now that is what a copy looks like the exact same the STG44 and the AK47 are different the the M-16 and C7 are the exact same any AR-15,M-16,M-4,C7 or C8 they all have 100% identical functionality.

You might as well say that a FAMAS is the same as an AUG if you are willing to say that an AK-47 is a copy of an STG44.

STG-44 take down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcdhyMfzgI

AK-47 take down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ML9aJBSw4o&feature=fvwrel

I like how the Soviets "under engineered" the take down and cut several seconds off and made it so easy that anyone can do it.But they just copied the STG44 right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqhe0C2oCvc

[_dgn_]

No, the MG-34 also had a quick change barrel. Though don't have any info on earlier weapons with quickly changeable barrels.

Edit: After a quick search the first weapon to feature a quick change barrel system I could find is the ZB vz. 26 adopted in 1924 by the Czech. Not sure if it is the actual first though.

One is older : the Hotchkiss M1909 Benet-Mercie (a French Hotchkiss portative machine gun, chambered not for the initial 8 mm Lebel cartridge, but for the US .30-06 Springfield).

Another firearm with a quick change barrel, older than the ZB vz. 26 : the Colt Automatic Machine Rifle R 75 (A), an improved version in 1925 of the M1918 B.A.R.

[_dgn_]

Alright smarty pants I mixed up two rounds in my head you want a cookie now?
I could not think of the exact round and the Luger round popped into my head.

My point about the AK and the STG44 being very different in general functionality most certainly stands the AK no doubt took design ideas from the STG but it is no direct clone.Sorry if you disagree with that but you are incorrect in thinking that.

STG44 stripped: http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/fieldstripp/strp_mp44.htm


AK47 stripped: http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/ak/akm/akmapart1024w.jpg

Yes they are just like two peas in a pod.....not!

They have entirely different type bolt operating systems and entirely different the STG44 uses a gas operated locking breech the AK47 uses a gas operated rotating bolt.

Now let us look at two weapons that are identical the M-16A2/4 and the C7/A1 rifle the latter being a direct copy of the M-16A2 but only having full auto rather than 3 round burst(and this of little matter as this is effected merely by a selector switch)

Ar-15/M-4/M-16 all same on the inside :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUWvojbYJVI

C7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYnXjs7oh1k

Now that is what a copy looks like the exact same the STG44 and the AK47 are different the the M-16 and C7 are the exact same any AR-15,M-16,M-4,C7 or C8 they all have 100% identical functionality.

I spent some years in the Army, using (and so dismounting and cleaning) many various firearms, French or not, old or recent. By example, I was during 2 months in a German Panzerbataillon (and since, MG3s, UZIs and P1s don't have practically any more secrecies for me).

I handled an AK-47 for the first time in the Officers Academy in Saint-Cyr (which has an huge collection for military instruction) and I shooted an AK-47 for the first time in the Cavalry School in Saumur, and later, in a French Regiment which was using it ...

I was also collector, using my personal collection or friends' one in private, police or public shooting ranges. So I rapidly "discovered", pratically, that the StG44 was not exactly, "inside", the same thing ...

In addition, I had an important collection of cartridges (and the corresponding documentation). I had also specialized in the study of cartridge markings (or of their lack of markings), to know their origins (nationality, plant ...). Very important during the Cold War and the various "local" wars, in order to see who were the ammunition suppliers !

In my mind, "copy" don't mean "clone". Can one agree on the expression "largely inspired by" (as Panther was initially a copy of the T-34, or the Tupolev Tu-144 built from the Concorde) ?

Cheers.

[Stealhead]

Well I guess that is a language thing as in the US copy means a clone for example the machine that scans papers and prints out those scans we call that a copy machine or a copier.

Sorry for the misunderstanding then it turns out that we see eye to eye it was just a barrier in words.The AK certainly does take much from previous designs as well(you will hear almost as many claim that is "all original" in design as much as you will hear the "clone" pro claimers) Everyone takes ideas from others and then claims them as their own quite often which is always odd to me
as making a good improvement on a concept is often just as viable as an entirely new design.

You do hear many in the US say that the AK-47 is a direct copy or clone of an STG44 when you here guys say this gun ranges all the time and then have to set them straight you kind f react the the "c" word.:D

Funny the entire time I was in Germany I never happened to mention the use of a copy machine with any Germans that we worked with(we where mechanics so no officers or copy machines to be talking about) Actually the German guy I worked with most often would mostly talk about his trips on Route 66 and his days working on UH-1s in the Heer.

You are correct about the Mauser round that is for sure the Luger round always pops into my head for some reason I guess because I relate it to the C/96.
Out curiosity in your time did you come across any of the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin straight pull bolt rifles?I have read and seen photos of these but have never seen one.

[Dan D]

AK47 maker bites the bankruptcy bullet (http://rt.com/business/news/kalashnikov-producer-declared-bankcupt-462/)

April 4 2012
"The company makes around 90 percent of all rifles in Russia, according to Lenta.ru. Its most famous the AK 47 or simply the Kalashnikov has been a favorite with armies, rebels and smugglers for half a century. However, last year the company made a net loss of over $80 million and its production in monetary terms fell by 45 percent."
It’s newly created rifle the AK-12, which the company spent several years developing, has got quite a cold reception with reports that the Russian Defence Ministry is not going to buy it. The company unveiled the new rifle in February and claims it meets all the modern requirements and is due to be tested later this year.
Another blow for the gun-maker was lapses in security. A local resident bought a wooden box for firewood, only to find it contained new AK 47s. A number of managers at the company were fired over the incident."

A local resident bought a wooden box for firewood...., he met a pretty woman, they married and had 2 kids.

[MH]

Looks like ak 12 still has all the flaws because the company kept the basic design.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_2-tfb.jpg

They got rid of the clumsy body side rails and made it sort of flat top.
Problem is that the rails are on top cover which must be removed for cleaning for example....from what i can see here.
It also becomes a bit loose with time....so here goes precision for all the modern fancy stuff one can put on it.
Other than that it looks like cool rifle.







................

[Stealhead]

The AK-12 looks like an attempt to imitate western features like picatinny rails which they probably imitate as I am sure that the picatinny design is patent protected.The problem for Izmash is that the previous AK where so long lasting and passed out for free for almost 40 years or copies made in block nations they flooded the market nobody needs to buy very many new AKs.

I see that they moved the rear sight much farther back the Finns beat them to punch long ago on that idea.

From what I can find about the AK-12 it sounds a bit crappy first sign of trouble is they added several features like a 3 round burst facility and the charging handle can be moved to the left or right silly concept why make such a complex flip-able charging handle when you can mount an up turned charging handle as on the Galil(this type handle is a popular modification done to western AKs already) it will be able to use a 60 round 4 column magazine bad, bad, bad idea that just increases the odds of the gun over heating.The ak-12 sounds and looks like a POS no Russian solider in his right mind would trade in his AK-74M for one.



More on the bankruptcy and a video on the AK-12 in Russian but you can tell just by looking the thing is poorly designed well the news anchor lady is cute at least.In the end they are obviously bragging about how good the AK-12 is while they show a guy shooting an old M-16A1 and the other fires an AK-74 again and not an AK-12 they are trying to trick a lay person inot thinking that all AKs being shown are the AK-12.



http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/robert-farago/kalashnikov-rifle-maker-goes-belly-up-ak12-was-a-bluff/
Also they are trying to pull a fast one the part with the man heat and cold testing that is an AK-74 the weapon he is shown firing appears to be the AK-12.

[MH]

The Russian ergonomics and big hammer manufacturing....the tie looks neat.
http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/33/files/2012/03/AK12-Selector-300x200.jpg (http://www.recoilweb.com/new-kalashnikova-izmashs-ak-12-573.html/ak12-selector)

Well after some looking it seems they brought it to the level of old galil or maybe actually downgraded.

Try staying low with this huge mag they love...might be difficult at times.



.............

[Skybird]

The state attorney has launched investigations and one or two Bundeswehr officers were arrested over charges of corruption. The problems with the G-36 are mounting and so do the complaints of German soldiers in Afghanistan. Documents prove that already many years ago internal tests by the BW showed the rifles to become hot too soon, limiting their use in combat situations. As said, the complaints from Afghanistan have constantly mounted, the issue puts lives at risk.

Soldiers also complain about their lacking punch even when not being overheated. 'When having become hot, it becomes "incredibly difficult" to hit something with them at ranges beyond 100m, and the Manufacturer even warns to use them any longer then, since they can jam completely. Nice idea, you are i cover in a hut, Taliban are around the place, and you are being told you should not use your rifle for you have already fired two mags. Right that kind of call you need in that situation.

The rifle looks sexy, but it is more of use on parades than being a reliable weapon in intense combat.

With he concerned BW tester having warned of getting the rifle already years ago, the charges over corruption against those two officers are obviously linked to the question whether they have arranged the buying of these inferior rifles nevertheless and against the advise of testers and against all reason.

[Stealhead]

I do see German infantry carrying G3s in combat in many photos and film clips.Of course the G3 fires 7.62x51mm a full size rifle round which has a greater effective range than 5.56x45mm.

Which is a benefit right there as the Taliban like to ambush using PKMs and RPGs the PKM fires 7.62x54mmR a full size rifle round which has an effective range which exceeds that of 5.56mm the RPG does as well and they use it more like mortar firing dozens of them at an enemy position.If they are feeling extra aggressive another Taliban unit will attempt to flank and get in close for the kill.Although they are very careful with this plan of attack and only attempt when they know they have a clear advantage.

Still you want a G3 in order to cover the longer range an MG3 would also be nice though on a bipod mount its accuracy is rather poor at anything greater than 300meters the MG3 needs a tripod mount to be truly punishing to an enemy force.

In modern combat it is all about massed fire overwhelming your enemy when most of a NATO units small arms are firing 5.56mm ammo and only a few GPMGs and designated marksmen weapons firing heavier rounds it becomes difficult for a NATO unit to break contact with a foe that is attacking from ranges outside the 5.56mm window of effectiveness without the aid of air support which can take time to arrive time that an enemy can fade away during or if in large enough numbers overwhelm the contacted force.

These problems are only intensified if your weapon has performance issues.

[Cybermat47]

Typical Germans. They make great weapons when we're at each other's throats, but start making crappy ones only a couple of decades after we all become allies again :O:

[Stealhead]

The G3 was designed in the late 50's and the MP5 was designed in the 60's and those firearms are both fairly well designed for the most part.The Leopard series of MBTs are at the top of the breed.

Honestly though the FN FAL is a better rifle than the G3 and the Germans could have simply kept using that rifle (they did use it for a few years in the later 50's) instead of the G3 the G3 does not perform any better than the FAL.

WWII German small arms varied some where outstanding others average most though where average and not notably better than what anyone else fielded.It is the discipline of the troops and the brains of the leadership that make the difference the Germans had discipline in spades in WWII but that was not always a benefit.

[Skybird]

The MG3 is being phased out for the most now, and most ofd that - I read - is to be found on vehicle mounts only, up to Leopards. Infantry squads for long time also had to phase it out and replace it with versions of G36 as LMG. However, H&K now as delivered the successor to the legendary MG3 (legendary for its high firing rate), the HK121, which thankfully is a 7.62 again.

The new Puma IFV however will be armed with the 5.56 as secondary weapon again, and will not be upgraded with the new 7.62. The turret, so I was told be the experts in the eSim forum, has no room left to replace the intermediate comprise solution 5. 56 with the HK121. :/\\!! :/\\!! :/\\!! Heck, that is not just some armored bus - it's an IFV !

In the military, craziness has methodology, I think.

Not being an insider, but from an academical and fence-sitters' POV I hated that idea of NATO-wide ammunition and callibre standardization at the cost of the 7.62 and in favour of the 5.56 from the day on I first heard of it, some years ago. And it seems the majority of troops hate it as well. Many have "informally" smuggled MG3s to Afghanistan to replace their disliked 5.52 LMG as squad MGs with them.

[Stealhead]

The NATO standardization actually makes a lot of sense.For everyone to be using the same ammo types is greatly beneficial for supply and production.

NATO first standardization was for the 7.62x51mm round though may back in the mid 50's long before they made the 5.56mm round standard.The 5.56mm round is not bad at certain ranges it is effective and also a large amount of rounds can be carried and overwhelming firepower wins the day so the more rounds you can carry and place down range the better.

What NATO needs to do is come up with a round that covers the gap between 5.56mm and 7.62mm so that troops have a better range of weapons so that they are strong in all ranges of combat.The way it is now there is a heavy focus on closer range small arms and much less on longer range weapons.

NATO needs to come up with a new "intermediate" round something in the 6mm range that can be effective at closer range and longer range and be not be the close or long range compromise that both 5.56 and 7.62mm suffer.If they had weapons that covered all three ranges equally that would go a long way in making enraging a NATO unit in fire fight a risky proposition at any range.

The US Army has experimented with issuing M-4s with standard length barrels(14.5') and M-4s with a heavier longer barrel for increased range these troops also carry a heavier grain 5.56mm round than the standard issue finally you have a few troops in a platoon that carry a 7.62mm rifle the SAWs remain the M249 which is 5.56mm but gets very high confidence rating from US soldiers with that gun it lays down lots of rounds and is primarily a suppression weapon and it matters less that the rounds are 5.56mm.

It does seem odd to mount a 5.56mm MG on an IFV in the US military and British military that would mount an M240 or L7A1 7.62mm(same MG really the FN MAG). Though 5.56 is logical in a support weapon carried by infantry as long as you still have a few GPMGs firing 7.62mm to call on when needed.If the BW plans on issuing mainly 5.56mm HK121s I would say that is a bad idea they need some in 7.62mm.To place all of your eggs in the 5.56mm basket is a bad idea.

They could also buy MG3s from the Pakistani military they have used them for years German troops I mean or have a Pakistani arms smuggler get them some those guys answer to money.

[Skybird]

I was unprecise. What I meant was not that standardization is senseless, but that it is stupid, imo at least, to give up the cal 7.62 in order to let its roles also be filled by 5.56. There was - and still is? - an intention to use just one callibre anymore - the smaller one. That'S what I meant. My fault.

The HK121 is 7.62. I just arrived summer last year. Before, the squads' support MG was to be some variation of the G36 with a bigger magazine ("Trommelmagazin"), and the MG3 were meant to be phased out, and mostly are. Here is hope the HK121 will enter service as squads' support MG. The G36 is just an LMG, the HK121 is a MMG.

I assume if the normal G36 has heating problems, the G36 used as a LMG shares these issues. What is that - a LMG that cannot live up to some intense firing rates? It's simply no good idea, I think.

[Stealhead]

I was unprecise. What I meant was not that standardization is senseless, but that it is stupid, imo at least, to give up the cal 7.62 in order to let its roles also be filled by 5.56.


I assume if the normal G36 has heating problems, the G36 used as a LMG shares these issues. What is that - a LMG that cannot live up to some intense firing rates? It's simply no good idea, I think.


I see what you mean of course the 7.62x51mm rifle never went away because NATO still used that caliber in its MG platforms(still does) that fact allowed units to keep a few of the older rifles in the armory.

The only problem was that in most units at least in the US military even in Vietnam by 1968 7.62mm was only available in mental link belts so you had to manually remove the links to then load up a rifle magazine.


My father served as a Ranger in Vietnam sometimes US, Aussie and New Zealand elite units would exchange troops to learn how others operated.The ANZAC SAS boys preferred their version of the FN FAL(L1A1) though they had access to M-16s like US troops did.My dad said that these guys would sit around and delink the 7.62mm M60 belts which took a lot of time but they refused to use the M-16 in most cases.

The MG36 only has a heavier barrel but nothing like a true machine gun so it would be as prone or more prone to over heat than a standard G36.Another thing that surprised me was the selection of those 100 round C-beta magazines those got rejected by the US military a few years before the G36 entered service.They where designed by some US after market company.

I got to fire the G36 and the MG36 when I was stationed in Germany.It seemed like a decent rifle but we where not firing them at anywhere near combat conditions.They wanted us to fire the MG36 on 3 round burst which I assume was to reduce heat build up.I could not understand much German at this point and time and the German was not very good at English so I only got the gist of operation.But I did think that the MG36 did not make a very good machine gun.No MG true can be magazine fed it must be belt fed and ideally have an interchangeable barrel.

Now the M249 though a 5.56mm weapon does have a the very nifty feature that it can also take any M-16 magazine and when firing from a magazine the RPM goes up to around 1,000.This is because a belt feed mechanism takes some energy so the bolt is working much harder with a magazine the spring is pushing the rounds in.

Of course the M249(FN MINI) is more or less an FN MAG shrunk down to 5.56mm size and the FN MAG took all of the good features of the MG42 and removed the bad ones.USSOCOM though had FN take the M249(MK46 to SOCOM) and convert it back to 7.62mm basically an M240 in a MK46 sized package.By the looks of it the HK121(MG4) has been inspired a bit by the MK48.

IMHO the FN MAG(MAG 58) is the best machine gun in the world some nations like the UK realized this shortly after it was first placed on the market back in 1958 I think.Other nations like the US took much longer first it became the co-axial MG in 1977 and finally in 1996 they realized that the M240 was a far better MG than the M60 go figure.Is the HK121 better than the current MAG 58? I doubt it.But I think that the German defense ministry has the same mentality that the US Department of Defense had for many years which was a believe American engineering was some how superior regardless.

If you look around on youtube and liveleak you'll find some very interesting rigging of M240s by their gunners a carrying handle turned to the left hand side seems very popular allowing the shooter fire from the hip by grasping the carrying handle with his left hand and balancing the gun between his left and right hands and the sling.

Here is such a rig in a hemp field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRPCNUzkqXk&list=PLD8FCBEB5383A1C6F

[Skybird]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUtUwmjlJ4
:) The fun begins at time 2:00 or so. :D Rumballern...!

I know almost nothing about such weapons, but I fall for looks sometimes, and I cannot help it, that thing simply looks - well, by the looks I simply like it. :haha: At least as long as nobody points it at my direction. Because then I probably would hate it.

By ergonomics, the new MG4 has obviously quite some advantages over the old MG3.

[Skybird]

National edition of Der Spiegel quotes an internal document by the Bundeswehr that so far is kept secret from the public, it is the final report of the itnernal examination process of the BW on the issue with the G36.

The report mentions - original quote - "enormous problems" with the rifle, coming from extreme sensitivity to heat, and even normal warmth. The plastic parts of the rifle start to distort at temperatures of 23°C already. The rifle form then on looses its precision and has its bullets straying 60cm off the zero mark at 100 meters. This also is the case after having fired 90 rounds, three magazines in a short time (1 ongoing firefight). The ability of soldiers to continue firefights successfully, is being put in doubt by the report. Not only does the rifle not allow to hit enemy fighters once these critical conditions are met, but it also erodes the soldier's trust into his weapon, and his own shooting skill, with significant psychological consequences, it is said.

23°C already. Now imagine the rifle being exposed to sunlight. :o Not in moderate-climate like Europe, but Afghanistan. BTW, our summer this year reached temperature up to almost 40°C.

I am no rifle nuts, and know little about these things. But I know that a rifle spraying over half a meter at 100m, is a useless piece of kit in combat in the open. I also know that the 23°C temperature barrier gets met and exceeded with materials in spring and summer, and when by the warmth created by your hand holding it, easily.

Late spring there was another report, I do not have the source anymore, it was in German, quoting German soldiers in Afghanistan with expressing extreme criticism and distrust with the rifle.

Maybe they should not use the rifle in summer, and plan their patrols for winter and nighttime only.

The "Mann-Stop-Wirkung" of the rifle also was heavily criticised by vets.

A critical factor also is when the rifle gets warmed up unsymmetrical. It seems the rifle must be frequently turned, like meat on a rotating grill spit. :doh:

The BW refuses public comments. Officially the rifle is hailed and celebrated and claimed to be precise, robust and reliable.

Spiegel claims to have internal documents from earlier that also give evidence that the BW knows very well of the lackign quality of the rifle.

The defence ministry tries to keep the ball low. They have had many problems in past months, with derailing projects, failing projects, exploding costs, bad quality. Latest news is that the new IFV, "Puma", is delayed even longer (it was set to start in regular service in 2008), and that beside all attempts to stabilise the bad main gun the tank still is unable to fire in a straight line. Also, many electronic components were used that were already inadequate and outdated at the time the vehicle was designed and planned, adding to the overall problems it has. It already is the world's most expensive IFV - and is set to become even more costly.

[Stealhead]

National edition of Der Spiegel quotes an internal document by the Bundeswehr that so far is kept secret from the public, it is the final report of the itnernal examination process of the BW on the issue with the G36.

The report mentions - original quote - "enormous problems" with the rifle, coming from extreme sensitivity to heat, and even normal warmth. The plastic parts of the rifle start to distort at temperatures of 23°C already. The rifle form then on looses its precision and has its bullets straying 60cm off the zero mark at 100 meters. This also is the case after having fired 90 rounds, three magazines in a short time (1 ongoing firefight). The ability of soldiers to continue firefights successfully, is being put in doubt by the report. Not only does the rifle not allow to hit enemy fighters once these critical conditions are met, but it also erodes the soldier's trust into his weapon, and his own shooting skill, with significant psychological consequences, it is said.

23°C already. Now imagine the rifle being exposed to sunlight. :o Not in moderate-climate like Europe, but Afghanistan. BTW, our summer this year reached temperature up to almost 40°C.

I am no rifle nuts, and know little about these things. But I know that a rifle spraying over half a meter at 100m, is a useless piece of kit in combat in the open. I also know that the 23°C temperature barrier gets met and exceeded with materials in spring and summer, and when by the warmth created by your hand holding it, easily.

Late spring there was another report, I do not have the source anymore, it was in German, quoting German soldiers in Afghanistan with expressing extreme criticism and distrust with the rifle.

Maybe they should not use the rifle in summer, and plan their patrols for winter and nighttime only.

The "Mann-Stop-Wirkung" of the rifle also was heavily criticised by vets.

A critical factor also is when the rifle gets warmed up unsymmetrical. It seems the rifle must be frequently turned, like meat on a rotating grill spit. :doh:

The BW refuses public comments. Officially the rifle is hailed and celebrated and claimed to be precise, robust and reliable.

Spiegel claims to have internal documents from earlier that also give evidence that the BW knows very well of the lackign quality of the rifle.

The defence ministry tries to keep the ball low. They have had many problems in past months, with derailing projects, failing projects, exploding costs, bad quality. Latest news is that the new IFV, "Puma", is delayed even longer (it was set to start in regular service in 2008), and that beside all attempts to stabilise the bad main gun the tank still is unable to fire in a straight line. Also, many electronic components were used that were already inadequate and outdated at the time the vehicle was designed and planned, adding to the overall problems it has. It already is the world's most expensive IFV - and is set to become even more costly.


Sounds much like the military industrial complex in the US.

[TorpX]

The report mentions - original quote - "enormous problems" with the rifle, coming from extreme sensitivity to heat, and even normal warmth. The plastic parts of the rifle start to distort at temperatures of 23°C already. The rifle form then on looses its precision and has its bullets straying 60cm off the zero mark at 100 meters.
If this is an accurate measure of the rifle, it is indeed a very poor weapon. However, I have a hard time believing that any army would accept such a rifle for service.

[antikristuseke]

Given that H&K has the experience of modernizing the L85 to the L85A2 standard I find it hard to believe that they would repeat the issues those rifles faced. But then again incompetence is abundant.

[Skybird]

It's the Bundeswehr's own closing examination report after it conducted checks for some longer time now, analysis it ran after the first info on the failing weapons were leaked to the media.

Warnings by independent experts who tested the weapon during the phase when the BW tested the weapon to form a decision whether or not they want to buy it, were ignored and according examination results and reports disappeared.

Some month ago the state attorney started investigations over corruption and bribery as well, in May it was reported. The suspects are those BW officers who were in an overwatching position during the assessment phase and who wrote the final verdicts in favour of buying the G36.

The BW still keeps the report now hidden from the public.

The article I read this in, also mentions pistols and ammunitions so weakly produced that they tend to explode in the shooter's hands. I am not certain, but I seem to recall they said there were 15 such incidents since 2011 when the rounds exploded within the weapon when fired.

If I were the owner of such a pistol, I would not trust it.

The defence ministry currently is very busy with trying to calm quite many failed projects.

[MH]

It is too ridiculous be true.
The rifles should had failed some basic testing.
Is it possible that later batches are so defective?

Hard to believe....:doh:

[Skybird]

It seems they HAVE failed testing even back then, but the negative findings mysteriously disappeared from the final recommendation report to the BW back then . That's why the state attorney examines for the suspicion of corruption and bribery.

The defence ministry has a long, well-established record of being poorly led and having many problems. The internal hierarchies and established bureaucracy isolates itself quite well from any new ministers.Also, there seems to be plenty of incompetence. The problems with the formal certification of the Eurohawk drone were known since YEARS. They just hoped it would solve itself, and so did nothing.

[Schroeder]

As I said in previous posts, my first hand experience with the weapon even in the heat of summer (30°c) and several magazines fired are not negative at all.
I'm very surprised by that, especially considering the long experience that HK has with building rifles.:hmm2:

[Skybird]

The German Federal Court of Auditors has fully stopped the aquisition of the G36 assault rifle, saying it would be irresponsible to spend 34 millions for a program that suffers from huge amounts of incompatible ammunition stockpiles in the Bundeswehr, too bad precision of the weapon, and serious temperature issues.

[CaptainMattJ.]

The German Federal Court of Auditors has fully stopped the aquisition of the G36 assault rifle, saying it would be irresponsible to spend 34 millions for a program that suffers from huge amounts of incompatible ammunition stockpiles in the Bundeswehr, too bad precision of the weapon, and serious temperature issues.
That's what ends up happening when designers forget the most basic rules of warfare: "keep it simple, stupid". It really is sound advice. Its why the AK-47 is the most iconic and widely used weapon ever, and also why the russian army never adopted "modern" rifles like the an-94 and instead still use the AK-74m as standard issue. Simplicity usually equates to reliability. The less things that can break, the less often the machine breaks, as a general rule of thumb.

The germans should have learned that lesson a long ago.

[Stealhead]

That's what ends up happening when designers forget the most basic rules of warfare: "keep it simple, stupid". It really is sound advice. Its why the AK-47 is the most iconic and widely used weapon ever, and also why the russian army never adopted "modern" rifles like the an-94 and instead still use the AK-74m as standard issue.

The Ak-47 is so widespread because the Soviets,numerous WARSAW pact nations and the Chinese produced them by the millions and gave them to any force who was fighting against western interests in many cases free of charge.

The primary reason that the AN-94 never entered mass production was because the Russian government at the time it was put into competition simply lacked the funding to procure them.There is also the fact that the AN-94 really does not offer a major improvement over the 74.

Same story for the M16 family nothing has yet come along that is enough of an improvement to warrant a change.Sure the M16 had a rocky start but many people ignore the fact that the aK47 had been in production for 10 years by the time it saw serious combat in Vietnam.

Hmong guerrillas in Loas are still using M16A1s produced during Vietnam but no one hears about that.Along with other weapons of course.Point being if you have to fight you will make what you have available to you work well enough.There is no "perfect" firearm they all will malfunction even AK47s even if kept in perfect condition.This is why combatants are or should be trained how to clear there weapon and identify what is causing the malfunction.

the guy in the North Hollywood shoot out the one with the Romanian AK47 with the 75 round drum magazines his stovepiped and he tossed it away because he did not know how to clear it luckily for the LAPD.

http://www.ourecho.com/users/230/1059/2.jpg

PS the Hmong are not Communists their enemy is.

[Oberon]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Martini_Henry_Mk_IV.jpg

1871 - 2014 and beyond :03: