Radar dates?

[LGN1]

Hi,

I found this very interesting post from Stiebler:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=396930&postcount=5

Now I'm wondering what determines the date of introduction for the radar. The date for the radar warning receiver is defined in basic.cfg, I guess. But where are the dates for the radar? Are these dates taken from the ships' *.sns files? :hmmm:

Cheers, LGN1

[Anvart]

Strange question... :hmmm:
Yes, for AI ships in *.sns, i think.

[LGN1]

Hi Anvart,

thanks for the reply. Why do you think the question is strange :06:

If the date is from the *.sns file I'm wondering from which *.sns file. From the one that has the earliest date for the radar type or from the *.sns file of the ship that has the contact :hmmm:

Regards, LGN1

[Anvart]

Basic.cfg - only for equipments of human subs. Yeah?

If the date of the radar does not match the current time, the radar will not be on the AI ship. Yeah?
The program successively checks the search capabilities of each submarine's radar... one for one scan (frequency of scanning?).
If the AI ship does not comply with the conditions of submarine detection by radar... contact will not be... Yeah? :hmmm:

[LGN1]

Hi Anvart,

I'm sorry I don't fully understand your post.

I'm a bit puzzled by some tests I did. I changed the Metox date in the basic.cfg section to 1939:

[EQUIP5]; Radar Warning Receiver
DaysSpent=1
Nb=8
NameIdx0=1280
Year0=1939
Month0=8
NbSub0=4
Sub00=0
Sub01=1
Sub02=2
Sub03=3
Renown0=100
Name0=FuMB1Metox

Now I would expect that the Metox device hardly detects any radar because they are introduced after 1939. However, from my observation it still detects late-war radar :hmmm: It seems that this date is not crucial. But what else determines which radar a radar-warning device can detect :06: Maybe it's the time of mounting :06:

Regards, LGN1

[TorpLos]

Ooooo i can sense something brewing!! ;)

[Anvart]

...
I'm sorry I don't fully understand your post.
I see I don't fully understand you. :D

...
However, from my observation it still detects late-war radar ...
... and what? possibly (in this case) the probability of detection of radars is lower...
... or you want to tell, FuMB1Metox 1939 year of release can't detect radars of more later years of release?
...
Each receiver simply detects any radar that was introduced before the date of introduction of the radar receiver. Add any radar receiver late enough, and it will detect everything.
I didn't test this part therefore isn't confident in it...

Maybe it's the time of mounting :06:
...
You speak about it (bold font)...
in original game:
...
[SUBMARINE_AMMO1];IID
...
Year4=1943
...
RadarWarningReceiver_40=1280
...
[SUBMARINE_AMMO3]; VIIC
...
Year4=1943
...
RadarWarningReceiver_40=1280
...
...
[EQUIP5]; Radar Warning Receiver
...
NameIdx0=1280
Year0=1942
Month0=8
...
Name0=FuMB1Metox
...
May be...

P.S.
I think... for "clear" experiment it is necessary to create the new "empty" campaign and special single mission... single mission exists in the campaign's environment.
... and it would be not bad to hear Stiebler's opinion...

[LGN1]

Hi Anvart,

thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I didn't explain well what I was thinking/testing/trying to understand. Actually, it was this part of Stiebler's post:

Each receiver simply detects any radar that was introduced before the date of introduction of the radar receiver. Add any radar receiver late enough, and it will detect everything.

I will run some more tests and see what's the difference between the several radar-warning receivers. I have the feeling that all receivers can detect all radar signals, but at different distances, with different probabilities,... this would explain why I'm never surprised by an aircraft after having installed the Metox device :hmmm: The famous failure of the Metox after the cm radar was introduced seems to be missing in SH3 :-?

Regards, LGN1

[Anvart]

...
I have the feeling that all receivers can detect all radar signals, but at different distances, with different probabilities,... this would explain why I'm never surprised by an aircraft after having installed the Metox device :hmmm: The famous failure of the Metox after the cm radar was introduced seems to be missing in SH3 :-?

Regards, LGN1
:D
Absolutely exactly.
When I played SH3 (5...7 years ago) I had the same feeling...

Good luck.

[Stiebler]

Playing with NYGM, my U-boat has been surprised often at night by bombers and warships late in 1943, while fitted only with Metox.

However, there is a strong statistical/probability effect, since many of the aircraft carry long-wavelength radar, while some carry short wavelength radar. (Probably the same with the warships too.) This is historically correct: Allied aircraft deliberately used both types of radar, in order to confuse the U-boat crews about the effectiveness of their radar receivers.

I made a large effort in the past to exchange Borkum and Naxos (unfortunately, I kept no record of the details). All that I achieved was to change the displayed names of the radar receivers, but not the radar wavelengths that they received.

Stiebler.

[Leitender]

LGN1,

in my radar test mission i made the same experience than you. The receiver reported all contacts, independant of their wavelengths. But one thing i noticed: There´s obviously a delay in the ship´s equipment date. E.g. in one test (date was 19430601), i expected the enemy River class frigate to have a type 273 radar, because of its starttime 19430301. But it had is predecessor, a type 271 radar. Not until i started my test mission at 19430901, the dd was fitted with the later type. IIRC, i read something about a half a year "prototype" period of introduction for new weapons. But i´m not sure anymore.

[LGN1]

Hi,

now I have done some tests with NYGM, too. I created a campaign.scr layer with only a single River-Class escort which should have the following radar devices:

LinkName=Type290
StartDate=19410101
EndDate=19420901

LinkName=Type271
StartDate=19420901
EndDate=19430301

LinkName=Type273
StartDate=19430301
EndDate=19430601

[Sensor 14]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type276
StartDate=19430601
EndDate=19440101

LinkName=Type268
StartDate=19440101
EndDate=19451231

The wavelength of the Type 290 was 1.4m; the Type 271...276 had a wavelength of 10cm and the Type 268 of 3.2cm. Metox could only detect wavelengths in the meter range.

In my test setup, however, Metox could detect all radar signals. This is in clear contrast to historical facts :-? As a consequence, Metox is much more useful in SH3 than it was in real life.

In order to correct this behavior, I will reduce the Metox' performance (or disable it) via SH Commander's date feature (from the time period on when the cm radar appeared).

Regards, LGN1

[h.sie]

What about this Fix for the Sh3 Commanders Randomized_Events.cfg (for GWX Sensors.dat)?

;--------------------------------------------------------------
; Metox Fix - models inability of METOX RWR to detect cm Radar
;--------------------------------------------------------------

; 25% Failure rate from Sept. 42 until Nov. 42
[0:data\Library\Sensors.dat]
ApplyToPeriod=19420901|19421130
ChooseFrom=4
RndMidPat=1
0_x058A67=500

; 50% Failure rate from Dec. 42 - March 43
[1:data\Library\Sensors.dat]
ApplyToPeriod=19421201|19430331
ChooseFrom=2
RndMidPat=1
0_x058A67=500

; 75% Failure rate from April 43
[2:data\Library\Sensors.dat]
ApplyToPeriod=19430401|19451231
ChooseFrom=4
RndMidPat=1
0_x058A67=500
1_x058A67=500
2_x058A67=500

[Leitender]

Hi h.sie,

very fine, thank you. Didn´t see that until now. But as far as i read, Metox was very helpful from 08/42 to 05/43, when U-Boat losses decreased significantly, whereas allied losses increased drastically. So i think 50% failure ratio from 12/43 to 03/43 is too much. Dezimeter H2S was used as airborne interception (AI) radar from 09/42, but this system was not used against U-boats. Anti submarine ASV Mk.III was in use since 03/43.

Please take a look:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/uk_radars.htm

Btw. Naxos RWR was used from 09/43 with "Finger" antenna covering 8-12cm wavelength. ASV Mk VII (3cm wavelength) and american SS (SU) radar (2.6cm) were used since 01/44. From 05/44 Naxos was used with "Mücke" antenna, covering 2-4cm wavelength.

So Naxos also failed from 01/44 to 04/44, and the early version had a principle dysfunction against allied radars, because of its horizontal polarisation (that was too modern, in this case).

So maybe we can assume a failure ratio of 75% from 09/43 to 12/43 an a 50% ratio from 01/44 to 04/44?

greetings.

[TorpLos]

Playing with NYGM, my U-boat has been surprised often at night by bombers and warships late in 1943, while fitted only with Metox.

However, there is a strong statistical/probability effect, since many of the aircraft carry long-wavelength radar, while some carry short wavelength radar. (Probably the same with the warships too.) This is historically correct: Allied aircraft deliberately used both types of radar, in order to confuse the U-boat crews about the effectiveness of their radar receivers.

I made a large effort in the past to exchange Borkum and Naxos (unfortunately, I kept no record of the details). All that I achieved was to change the displayed names of the radar receivers, but not the radar wavelengths that they received.

Stiebler.

I have also noticed this. With Metox sometimes ill get a warning and sometimes ill just get an "aircraft spotted".. And sometimes at night... :*(

Gj steibler, NYGM is a great mod!

[h.sie]

@Leitender: The following I found in Wikipedia (ok, I know it's not the ultimate reference):

"Bis Ende 1942 wurde das Gerät mit gutem Erfolg verwendet, versagte dann aber immer häufiger, da die alliierten Ortungsanlagen auf Dezimeterwellen
umgestellt wurden." = Metox was successfully used until end of 1942......

That was the reason for me to increase the failure probability to 50% from Nov. 42.

By the way: For my private use I plan to assign a failure probability to all german RWR, not only Metox and Naxos, in order to model system failures, malfunctions and thus make aircraft more dangerous and the game more surprising.

Any idea about halfway appropriate failure probabilities?

[Leitender]

Concerning allied techniques, i would prefer native "allied" sites. E.g.

http://jproc.ca/sari/sarrad1.html

http://www.vectorsite.net/ttradar_2.html

The introduction dates correspond to the changing numbers of U-boat and allied ship losses. "Ende 1942" is a time period about which i didn´t read anything important - concerning the battle of the beams. Maybe anyone else can help us to find out what happened at the end of 1942?