upgraded Oscar II SSGN

[MR. Wood]

http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fizvestia.ru%2Fnews%2F519270

[Oberon]

Using an Oscar II as an intel boat? Bit big isn't it? :hmmm:

Still, good to see the girls getting a refit, they've done good work so far.

[Krauter]

Hmm.. Well according to the article, they state that armed with this new "Caliber" (?) missile system will make the new Oscars ideal for hitting European missile defence sites

The only reasonable option to use a boat - make it a striking boat, capable of engaging surface and surface objects. To do this, well suited launch of the "Caliber" with a range of up to 1.5 kilometers. With their help, "Antei" will be transformed into a Russian response to European missile defense - said, "Izvestia" Sivkov.

He recalled that the ground-range missiles such prohibited by the treaty on the elimination of intermediate-and shorter-range missiles, and sea - not, so the boat will ensure the defeat of any object on the defense throughout Northern Europe.

He also discards its use as an intelligence boat, or a mothership for saboteurs and such due to it being too noisy...

no good, because the boat is too noisy for modern conditions.



My knowledge of Russian submarine types has gotten shaky, the Boreis are SSBNs, what are these Tactical "Ash" Types? Akulas? Antei is Oscar II I believe and Varshavyanka would be... Improved Kilo?...

Vysotsky's predecessor as commander of the Navy, Admiral Vladimir Masorin said in an interview with "Izvestia" that the Navy needs at least four types of submarines, strategic "Borei" tactical "Ash", multi-functional "Antei" and diesel "Varshavyanka."

[TLAM Strike]

My knowledge of Russian submarine types has gotten shaky, the Boreis are SSBNs, what are these Tactical "Ash" Types? Akulas? Antei is Oscar II I believe and Varshavyanka would be... Improved Kilo?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasen_class_submarine

Varshavyanka (the Woman from Warsaw) is the 636 Kilo Imp.

[Krauter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasen_class_submarine

Varshavyanka (the Woman from Warsaw) is the 636 Kilo Imp.

Thanks TLAM,

To my knowledge the Russians are still using for:

SSBN: Delta IVs (Typhoons phased out, I think they had 2 left in service for tests last time I looked) and the new Boreis. Did they also still have Delta IIIs in use too?

SSNs From what I knew they were still using Victor IIIs, Akulas and Alfas and Sierras. Has this Graney sub entered service yet? How does it compare to LAi's and Virginias?

SSGN: Mostly Oscars and Charlies yes?

SSKs, Kilo, Kilo Imp. and didn't they have another sub on the drawing board? Lada or something like that?

[TLAM Strike]

Thanks TLAM,

To my knowledge the Russians are still using for:

SSBN: Delta IVs (Typhoons phased out, I think they had 2 left in service for tests last time I looked) and the new Boreis. Did they also still have Delta IIIs in use too?

SSNs From what I knew they were still using Victor IIIs, Akulas and Alfas and Sierras. Has this Graney sub entered service yet? How does it compare to LAi's and Virginias?

SSGN: Mostly Oscars and Charlies yes?

SSKs, Kilo, Kilo Imp. and didn't they have another sub on the drawing board? Lada or something like that? Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

[MR. Wood]

I read some where that the yasen was suppose to be like seawolf that is why it was delayed

[CaptainHaplo]

The only thing suprising about this is that its taken this long to happen. However, given the struggles of the Russian navy (along with its CIS counterparts) its not a big suprise it has taken forever to make this move.

Bottom line, they are taking a guided missile sub and making it into a....

cruise missile sub

The difference is that instead of carrying long range ASM's (ASCM), its going to carry SSM's / LACM's (at least in part). This simply gives the boat the ability to project force on land. This is not nearly the change its made out to be.

Our forces shifted more when we took three Ohio class boats and made them TLAM/TASM launch platforms.

To saturate a missile defense site, you need a lot of incoming missiles. Your standard cruise missile warhead is NOT that large - regardless of type. The only way they are going to do enough damage to make a "missile shield" system go down is to hit a fair number of sites in concert. Or use nuke warheads. Neither option makes sense.

If these boats ever get used, my bet would be out of the med or even Caspian Sea (if the depth allows) and hitting targetted strongpoints against groupls like Chechen rebels.

To use them to suppress a missile defense shield just doesn't wash given the likely capabilities.

[Krauter]

Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

Ah so the Oscars are the only SSGNs they have. It'd be interesting to see just what the Russian Navys aims are with their subs, be it to use them as force projection or brown water work in the Med and Caspian Sea.



The difference is that instead of carrying long range ASM's (ASCM), its going to carry SSM's / LACM's (at least in part). This simply gives the boat the ability to project force on land. This is not nearly the change its made out to be.

Our forces shifted more when we took three Ohio class boats and made them TLAM/TASM launch platforms.

To saturate a missile defense site, you need a lot of incoming missiles. Your standard cruise missile warhead is NOT that large - regardless of type. The only way they are going to do enough damage to make a "missile shield" system go down is to hit a fair number of sites in concert. Or use nuke warheads. Neither option makes sense.

If these boats ever get used, my bet would be out of the med or even Caspian Sea (if the depth allows) and hitting targetted strongpoints against groupls like Chechen rebels.

To use them to suppress a missile defense shield just doesn't wash given the likely capabilities.

- Just a few points, they mentioned that this "Caliber" Missile system has a range of 1.4 km.... is that me just reading the article wrong or...?

- I do agree that they will probably be used in operations in areas like Chechnya or Dagestan or even South Ossetia and Georgia. Given the fact that these states have nothing akin to Naval forces it'd make sense to assume that if this new Belgorod was to be used as a SpecOps mothership, it'd probably be used in these areas as well where their opponents have no hope of detecting and even prosecuting the target.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Some Delta IIIs are still around as are all the Delta IVs. Alfas are retired, A few Victors and most of the Serras are arounds. The Yasen/Graney is still on sea trials. Compared to the Virgina its frikkin old. It was sitting in the shipyard for a decade so its not exactly cutting edge. Charlies are retired. They have one Lada operational, they have some upgraded Kilo in the works, and they got the Sarov class special projects boat.

To be fair, hull tech hasn't advanced that much these past 20 years, and if anything the Russians mastered the use of higher yield steel (AK-32 steel with 100kg/cm^2 which when you convert back comes to HY-140 equivalent) in the Akulas where the US are still working on about HY-100 with maybe some HY-130.

If the electronic fitout was the last part, it'll still be relatively modern and OK.

- Just a few points, they mentioned that this "Caliber" Missile system has a range of 1.4 km.... is that me just reading the article wrong or...?

It is not you. The original was 1,5 tys. km, "thousand km" but Google Translate handles numbers and units in general rather poorly. For the number it is best to disable the translation and find what it was.

[Krauter]

Ah alright thanks Kazuaki! I was trying to figure out what a Missile with 1.4 km range would be good for other than point defence or beaching yourself and pelting missiles and then trying to figure out who to blame for the mishap :haha:

[TLAM Strike]

Ah so the Oscars are the only SSGNs they have. It'd be interesting to see just what the Russian Navys aims are with their subs, be it to use them as force projection or brown water work in the Med and Caspian Sea. The Yasen class has a VLS on the sides of the sail for SLCMs making it about as capable as a SSGN.

For the Caspian I doubt they will deploy submarines, they are however building some Buyan class corvettes.

[Krauter]

The Yasen class has a VLS on the sides of the sail for SLCMs making it about as capable as a SSGN.

Similar in capability to LAis and Virginias (in that respect)?

What munitions do the Russians have that compare to VLS launched TLAMs?

[Oberon]

Similar in capability to LAis and Virginias (in that respect)?

What munitions do the Russians have that compare to VLS launched TLAMs?

I guess the 3M-54 Klub would be the closest? :hmmm:

[Krauter]

I guess the 3M-54 Klub would be the closest? :hmmm:

Going by a quick wikipedia search the 3M-54 system seems a little superior on paper to the Tomahawk, especially the E variant.

[TLAM Strike]

Going by a quick wikipedia search the 3M-54 system seems a little superior on paper to the Tomahawk, especially the E variant.
That is the anti-ship variant (one of them). It does have that nasty terminal stage but all variants lack the range of the Tomahawk.

[Kapitan]

To clear something up.

In service:

Northern fleet:
4 victor III
6 akulas
6 kilos
3 oscar II's
6 delta IV
1 typhoon as a trials boat

2 bories are currently on trail 1 building upto 10 planned in total

2 kilos are active in the baltic fleet with the lada under trails and 1 kilo alrosa is active in the black sea

Pacific fleet:
3 delta III
2 Oscar II's
7 kilos
5 akulas

as for the refitting for oscar II they are big noisey boats that are now getting old the youngest unit is around 15 years old now so its time they got something newer cheaper and more effective, however the missiles they do carry are very good and there isnt much if anything in any western armed force that could match the SS-N-19 shipwreck.

[Krauter]

as for the refitting for oscar II they are big noisey boats that are now getting old the youngest unit is around 15 years old now so its time they got something newer cheaper and more effective, however the missiles they do carry are very good and there isnt much if anything in any western armed force that could match the SS-N-19 shipwreck.

How noisy are Oscars, say in comparison to one of their SSNs or a Los Angeles class? (not improved)

[Kapitan]

bear in mind they are huge boats twice as wide as a ohio at nearly 84ft in width and 505ft long, unlike most submarines which have a single screw they have two personally they are probably as quiet as a 688 given they were built in the mid to late 80's and into the 90's and used tech aquired from the walker spy ring, the akulas are quieter but again they are now ageing rapidly the oscar is no more than a floating battery and was never designed to conduct ASW missions its role is to hunt surface groups and is sometimes escorted by akulas and victors much like the typhoons and deltas, but this doesnt mean they are totaly helpless you wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one of these.

[Krauter]

bear in mind they are huge boats twice as wide as a ohio at nearly 84ft in width and 505ft long, unlike most submarines which have a single screw they have two personally they are probably as quiet as a 688 given they were built in the mid to late 80's and into the 90's and used tech aquired from the walker spy ring, the akulas are quieter but again they are now ageing rapidly the oscar is no more than a floating battery and was never designed to conduct ASW missions its role is to hunt surface groups and is sometimes escorted by akulas and victors much like the typhoons and deltas, but this doesnt mean they are totaly helpless you wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one of these.

Aah gotcha, one last question (maybe!).. does the width of a submarine affect its sound signature at all? My theory is that, a narrower surface area pushing water out of the way would allow you to move at higher speeds and remain quiet rather than a large wide area pushing water would require lower speeds to maintain stealthy movement. Is this reasoning correct?

[Oberon]

I would say, with my rudimentary knowledge of physics that the bigger the boat the greater the flow noise at speed. Of course, the shape of the front can help a bit, but if you make it too sharp then you run the risk of cavitation and loss of stability IIRC.

The Oscars are good boats, built primarily to knock out US carrier fleets by spamming ASMs. They're an ASuW boat for certain, not an ASW, but as Kap says, that's not to say they don't have teeth, but I'd much rather tangle with an Oscar than a late model Akula. :yep:

[Stealhead]

I would say, with my rudimentary knowledge of physics that the bigger the boat the greater the flow noise at speed. Of course, the shape of the front can help a bit, but if you make it too sharp then you run the risk of cavitation and loss of stability IIRC.

The Oscars are good boats, built primarily to knock out US carrier fleets by spamming ASMs. They're an ASuW boat for certain, not an ASW, but as Kap says, that's not to say they don't have teeth, but I'd much rather tangle with an Oscar than a late model Akula. :yep:


That would depend on the situation at hand to some extent which one is more dangerous but to a surface vessel the Oscar is much more dangerous than an Akula when you take into consideration the stand off range of its cruise missiles the Oscar makes a very good area denial weapon system.

[Oberon]

That would depend on the situation at hand to some extent which one is more dangerous but to a surface vessel the Oscar is much more dangerous than an Akula when you take into consideration the stand off range of its cruise missiles the Oscar makes a very good area denial weapon system.

D'oh! That's what I get for typing whilst tired, I meant to say in a Submarine that I'd prefer to take on an Oscar II rather than a Akula II. Providing, of course, that he didn't get a good enough bead on me that he lobs a Skhval at me...hate those things, ruin a good day very quickly. :yep:

[Kapitan]

Some time ago i was reading a report on hydrodynamics written by an australian author its around on te forums some where, it gives a good insight into the way water flow causes noise ballasting and also properties
ect.

if you look at U.S U.K france germany and new models from russia the big wide boats have been laregly replaced, i personally think the USN got it right with dimensions of thier attack submarines being a more sausage shape, if you look at the typhoon and oscar II they are more wedge shape which on the surface causes a large under current around the sides, and submerged the water has to flow over a much larger surface area and indeed has the potential to create even more noise, its not going to just be the mechanics of the submarine that gives it away but water flow also.

you need to bear in mind that Oscar II's are 24,000 ton displacement boats they are slow to respond to quick direction and speed changes.
Most of the problem is size for them, hence why russia has now realised acctually the american system works and i have to praise the USN in that they created an entire attack fleet made of small SSGN's although you class them as SSN's.
688i and virginia are very good designed boats they have the qualities of a normal SSN but are so versatile that you only need one class of submarine in service which in turn cuts cost, the russians went about creating around 40 diffrent classes of submarines where the americans used only 2 classes, the whole VLS thing is a good idea.

HOWEVER!

The russian SS-N-19 missile is a great deal larger than any missile in the US or UK force infact its around 7tons in wieght compaired to the harpoon which is what 1.5 ton? this limits the number of units capible of carrying this missile (only the oscar kirov and Kuznetsov can carry them) because of thier size, the missile range is far beyond that of the harpoon and not only that it travels far faster mach 2.5 with a range of 550km-650km one of these is enough to mission kill a carrier and the oscar houses 24 of them.
The SS-N-19 is much a sea skimming missile it is fire and forget it can use AWACS to locate its target or Satalite and once fired one missile climbs to 20,000ft and acts as guide feeding information to the other missiles and if thats engauged another takes its place.
The russians would volley fire these missiles and they are not worried if 20 get shot down as long as one gets through to a carrier it basically puts you out of buisness.

Oscar II's are not like typhoons, they are double hulled and have a 32% reserve boyancy compaired to around 15% in UK and US submarines roughly ish dont quote me.
This means that with 2 of 9 compartments flooded she can come to the surface and the reason the kursk didnt is just because of the sheer damage to everything when she blew up thats before you ask.
Oscars are designed to take atleast one direct hit and carry on, they were never designed to come face to face with enemy submarines but maintain a weapons arsenal of 24 torpedos in which some may be skhval, (BTW an oscar probably would only carry 2 or 3 of these not an entire load)

Oscar was built in the early 1980's with murmansk and arkangelsk being the two lead Oscar I boats these were withdrawn in the late 1990's and only the 13 remaining Oscar II's were still active all were built between 1983 and 1998 with belogorad still unfinnished come 1999, what we now see is remarkable.

Instead of building on the same scale they have slimmed down the yasen is much smaller but carries smaller missiles but still has the same qualities as the Oscar II, far quieter more agile and more capible at ASW this is more like the Russian 688i.

the entire point of having a large submarine was to boats about it most of the russian fleet is to say to the USN mine is bigger than yours, take the Kirov for example the USN re-activated WW2 battleships just so they had something to combat it as the tico's were smaller and not as well armed as a kirov on paper, but they remain the largest cruisers that have put to sea and at 33,000 tons you can see why they are by far heavier than some countries aircraft carriers and larger in length too.

Big doesnt always mean better against a carrier group 4 Oscar II's could reek havoc easily but they would fall victim to american submarines later on where as the akula could deal with the submarines but would struggle against the aircraft carrier as the missiles it carries are easily tracked and shot down so it would need to torpedo the carrier which means running a gauntlet with very little chance.

Which brings you to the reason why the russians use the bastion concept a dedicated ASW unit such as the akula victor III Sierra's etc would protect oscars from enemy submarines while they protect the SSN from surface units again this works in theory with surface units, the sovremenny would normally be paired with an udaloy one to do ASW the other ASUW AAW/ its the same in the USN where a burke would be paired with a perry and the UK a type 42 or 45 with a type 22 or 23 double layered protection.

But in a knife fight the akula carries more weapons and more tubes and can reload faster than most american submarines it can have more weapoins in the water at any time than any other western submarine so it is a formidable platform and so is the oscar II even against submarines it does carry 8 tubes with 24 reloads.

[ikalugin]

On the topic (terribly sorry for the necro)
- Oscar IIs are to be refitted with Yahont/Kalibr launchers (3 Yahonts or 4 Kalibrs per the old Granit tube I believe).
- Yasen has 8 large silos behind the sail with 24 Yahonts or 32 Kalibrs between them.

Ie while Yasen remains a fairly competetive attack sub, the Oscar IIs refit appears to be more in line with the missile truck (72-96 weapons I think) concept.

[Oberon]

So, really you can compare the Yasen with a flight II Los Angeles in that it possesses an array of vertical launch tubes but is not solely dedicated to ASuW warfare unlike the Oscar II which is definitely geared towards hitting surface vessels, with the ASW armament for primarily defensive and back-up methods.