[REL] Longer sinking times for TMO 2.5

[Bilge_Rat]

version 2 is up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ti7b7ap31xbo1nj/LST_TMO_v2.zip

version 1: This mod will substantially increase the sinking time of ships in TMO 2.5. The basic idea and parameters come from the "Better and Realistic Flotation" mod made by Arclight for SH5 which have been tweaked for SH4. The mod increases the flooding time of various underwater compartments so sinking is more progressive.

version 2 takes a more novel approach: The HP damage generated by each torpedo has been reduced by roughly 50%, but the various ship's compartments have been tweaked so the flooding damage generated by each torpedo remains about the same. This roughly doubles the amount of Hit Points each ship has and makes it less likely it will sink from HP depletion and more likely it will sink from progressive flooding, since it now takes roughly twice as many torpedoes to deplete all the hit points. This also has the added benefit of delaying the "ship sunk" message in many cases.

The flotability factor of various ship's compartments has also been adjusted to accelerate sinking when much of the ship is flooded. This makes it less likely that a ship will hang around when its deck is already under water.

What does this mean in practice?

For small merchants and warships (DE, DD), one torpedo still more or less garantees a kill. For larger ships, 3-4 torpedoes also basically garantees a kill.

Where it gets interesting is if you only get 1-2 torpedo hits on a larger ship. Without the "ship sunk" message and with the progressive flooding, you now have to judge whether to use 1-2 extra torpedoes to finish the job or wait to see if it sinks by itself.

This mod works well with TheDarkWraith's "Ship Damage from Fire" mod.

All feedback will be appreciated.

[Bubblehead1980]

This mod will substantially increase the sinking time of ships in TMO 2.5. The basic idea and parameters come from the "Better and Realistic Flotation" mod made by Arclight for SH5 which have been tweaked for SH4. The mod increases the flooding time of various underwater compartments so sinking is more progressive.

I have tested it on various ships and it works pretty well in most situations. Many times, ships which appear to be undamaged after a torpedo hit will sink after 20-30 minutes or more from progressive flooding.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jfdtxkb1p9490l5/LST_TMO.zip

All feedback will be appreciated.


Very cool, I will give it a try when I go back to the PTO side of things, playing U boats in Atlantic currently.

[DrBeast]

Sounds interesting. Saw your post about this over at the NSM thread, I think I'll give it a try. I feel the ships in TMO do sink a bit too fast, at least for someone who has been used to NSM (I only just ported over to 1.5).

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, hoping to get some feedback when players have had a chance to try it out. Having tried out stock, NSM, RFB/NYGM and now TMO it feels as though, because of the way the SH damage model is designed, you can have realistic sinking times or realistic looking sinkings, but you can't have both at the same time. I am trying to find the sweet spot between the two.

[DrBeast]

yes, hoping to get some feedback when players have had a chance to try it out. Having tried out stock, NSM, RFB/NYGM and now TMO it feels as though, because of the way the SH damage model is designed, you can have realistic sinking times or realistic looking sinkings, but you can't have both at the same time. I am trying to find the sweet spot between the two.

If memory serves, just playing with the flooding time in Zones.cfg is not enough. NSM and RFB/NYGM had to rework the .zon files of all ships extensively, and Ducimus never went there with TMO because it's just too much work for one man to do alone.

[Bilge_Rat]

I am not interested in replicating NSM or NYGM, those mods already exist and involved a massive amount of work. I am trying to see if I can develop an alternative approach. Zones.cfg is a key file since it is central to the damage model of all ships.

I found an old post by Elanaiba, one of the game designers, which explained what the variables in the Zones.cfg file mean:



Ok, now about the zones.cfg entry:

[NSKeel] - this is the name of the zone. I guess you can use it to find the zone index at the start of the zones.cfg file, then search for that index inside a .zon file. What good would that be? Dunno...

Category=Keel - if this zone is part of a "targetable" category in the recoginition manual, then this would be set here.

Multiplier=5.0 - the torpedo's explosion is amplified this number of times when a critical effect is achieved. This can be done by a (selecting a critical location in the recognition manual and actually hitting it; pure luck - see below)

Flotability=50.0 - How much of a "ship's" flotability is lost when a compartment of this type is completely flooded.... Out of 100%. Keep in mind though that a ships has a buoyancy reserve above water

HitPoints=120

Destructible=No - when this "compartment" is destroyed (HP = 0) the parent is destroyed or not. Yes = Good for masts, cargo, breakable things.

Armor Level=20 - How tough is the skin of this thingie... See comments below

Critic Flotation=0.99 - Defines how much damage this compartment must receive before starting to take flood. Out of 1 - In this case the compartment must be completely destroyed - it's not set to 1 cause there's a bug with that. Don't use 1 either in your experiments.

Critical=Yes - Do we really want this to be a critical compartment?

Critical Chance=1.0 - Chance that when this compartment is hit is destroyed with a torpedo, without using the manual, a critical effect is achieved. Out of 1 (this is the keel wich explains the 1 out of 1)

FloodingTime=120 - How much time in seconds it takes for this compartment to fill with water - WHEN IT IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED. When damage is lower, time increases

CargoType=None - Does this compartment carry special cargo? None/Ammo/Fuel/ Custom <- Set by mission editor.


Now, a little discussion about armor.

You often see the "-1" value. What it means? It means it's taken from the "parent". So if a compartment set on the ship has armor = -1, then it assumes the Armor value set for the compartment type.

If the type (as defined in zones.cfg) has Armor = -1, then it takes the armor value of the "ship hull". So a turret with Armor = -1 on a ship with armor = 30, will, in fact have 30 armor, not infinite. The same goes for the sub compartments. Their taking armor values from the hull.

How does armor work?

If a projectile has lower Armor Piercing value than a compartment, technically it won't penetrate. There's no variation of AP with velocity. But AP values are not set in stone, in fact there's a 20% random variation (see Penetration Threshold=0.2 value).

Explosion's of projectiles that do not penetrate (DCs are an example but not the only one) need to compare their total HP with the armor to be defeated. In fact, the explosion needs to reach the armor wall with a force (in HP) 4 times greater than the armour value.

In other words, HP > 4 * A or you're bust. If it is, the explosion breaks the wall and damages the compartment.

Now, to discuss the Armor = 15 problem - it's obvious that you'll get beaten much easier on the surface. But you will also get beaten from much farther UNDER the water. Since explosion force (HP) decreases with distance, you need to be close to a DC in order to take flood damage from it (walls broken).

With a 10 points or so decrease in Armor, you get a few meters extra DC damage radius. And this will hurt. Make sure you know what you're doing. http://www.subsim.com/phpBB_archive1/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Hope this helps,

Dan



http://www.subsim.com/phpBB_archive1/viewtopic.php?p=303470&highlight=#303470

The stock damage model of SH3-4-5 is actually quite sophisticated. The designers tweaked it towards instant gratification, no doubt for commercial purposes, but I see a lot of untapped potential there. I am already testing a new approach which looks promising.

[DrBeast]

I am not interested in replicating NSM or NYGM, those mods already exist and involved a massive amount of work. I am trying to see if I can develop an alternative approach. Zones.cfg is a key file since it is central to the damage model of all ships.

I found an old post by Elanaiba, one of the game designers, which explained what the variables in the Zones.cfg file mean:



http://www.subsim.com/phpBB_archive1/viewtopic.php?p=303470&highlight=#303470

The stock damage model of SH3-4-5 is actually quite sophisticated. The designers tweaked it towards instant gratification, no doubt for commercial purposes, but I see a lot of untapped potential there. I am already testing a new approach which looks promising.

Thanks for digging up that old gem! :up:

Ran my patrol yesterday with your mod slapped on. Looks good overall, but it seems to have an issue with ships that go down vertically:

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4849/sh4img20120321042925832.jpg

She was stuck like this for several minutes.

[Bilge_Rat]

v2 should fix that, just increasing flooding times was not enough.

[Ducimus]

A problem your going to run into is that most of the damage zones characteristics specified in the zones.cfg are used across many ships where the location, size and shape of the damage zone using it in each ship, often calls for a unique solution.

[HW3]

What really kills the immersion for me is when you hit a ship in the engine room and forward cargo hold, and it sinks by the stern.:damn:

[Bilge_Rat]

version 2 is up. see post 1 for details.

[Charlie901]

How do you edit the "Zones" file so that when a ship is out of hitpoints and is considered destroyed and sinking it will go down slower...

As it is now, once a ship is destroyed, it completely sinks in 2.5 seconds...

I'm using TMO 2.5 and RSRDC...

Also to accomplish the above, do I have to manually edit every ship file? :down:

[Bilge_Rat]

How do you edit the "Zones" file so that when a ship is out of hitpoints and is considered destroyed and sinking it will go down slower...

As it is now, once a ship is destroyed, it completely sinks in 2.5 seconds...

I'm using TMO 2.5 and RSRDC...

Also to accomplish the above, do I have to manually edit every ship file? :down:

is that with my mod?:hmmm: if not, give it a try, it should do what you are asking for.

[DrBeast]

After several patrols with this mod running along with TMO, I can say I like it, so far. The annoying "bow hit, stern sinking" effect seems to have been reduced, and docked ships are more easily registered as sunk. It's not perfect, but it's definitely an improvement :up:

[Traveller]

Good mod, Bilge Rat. I'm using it and like it a lot. :)

I like it so much I made a Take Me Home v1.01 compatibility patch for it. Patch can be downloaded here: http://www.mediafire.com/?yoeho074775i114

[Bilge_Rat]

thanks guys, nice to see this is getting some use. I have been revisiting this mod lately after porting it to SH5, but it seems to be working fine as is.

[Caustic]

Thank you for this mod, I love it because it brings an added depth to the game that needs to be there. Like yourself, I tried other mods that attempt to create more realistic sinkings. NSM is outdated and the RFB model is horrible (in my opinion). This mod reveals that the stock game already had a sufficient sinking model that just needed to be tweaked. This is the best sinking physics mod to date and it works flawlessly. The occasionally sinking from HP depletion does occur but it is quite rare, rare enough to not matter. If you can completely eliminate it without compromising the excellent sinking behavior, this mod will become the king.

:up:

[Bilge_Rat]

Thank you for this mod, I love it because it brings an added depth to the game that needs to be there. Like yourself, I tried other mods that attempt to create more realistic sinkings. NSM is outdated and the RFB model is horrible (in my opinion). This mod reveals that the stock game already had a sufficient sinking model that just needed to be tweaked. This is the best sinking physics mod to date and it works flawlessly. The occasionally sinking from HP depletion does occur but it is quite rare, rare enough to not matter. If you can completely eliminate it without compromising the excellent sinking behavior, this mod will become the king.

:up:

Thanks for the kind words. Glad you enjoy it. :arrgh!:

[Bubblehead1980]

Love this mod but may want to make some adjustments.I have found no matter what, one torpedo eventually sinks this ship, even if its to the bow.I hit the 11,000 ton large passenger freighter with one Mark 14 in the belly, she eventually rolled over and sank, i mean once in a while but noticed it happens to every due to flooding.Love the mod but another issue is I hit a tanker, loaded with fuel(edited escorts to be tougher via notepad) and it didnt blow up when I hit it, just took one fish to the mid section, eventually went down by the bow.I know modding is a pain in the....just giving you some feedback.Do love the mod though.

[Soviet Creeper]

Thats weird, Ive nailed tankers with 3 torps and they never seem to sink :/.
Im wondering if theres something wrong with my mod loader?

TMO 2.5
RSRDC TMO
RSRDC patch
RSRDC_TMO_ pre pearl harbor start
Traveller Mod 1.1
LST_TMO_v2
Resucue sub for RSRDC TMO
Traveller mod 1.1 compatibilty patch for LST
Maxoptics TMO
TDW ship plane fire damage
DC water distubances
Websters eliminate floating plankton
TMH 1.01 compatiblity patch for LST
MFWC TMO
Websters 300 foot underwater visiblity, faster TC near land and ship Manuvering Fix

[fitzcarraldo]

Good mod, Bilge Rat. I'm using it and like it a lot. :)

I like it so much I made a Take Me Home v1.01 compatibility patch for it. Patch can be downloaded here: http://www.mediafire.com/?yoeho074775i114

Dear Traveller: What is "Take me Home"? I use your Traveller mod and LST.

LST is great, some issues, but great! Many thanks, Bilge Rat!!!!!

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[HW3]

Hit my first freighter using this mod and I love it! A much more realistic sinking than I was getting before.:yeah:

:salute:

[utops]

First of all thank you - finally i have a mod with satsfying sinking mechanics i waiting for this since game relase :ENORMOUS MONSTER BEER:
Second: Yet i found two things that are quite disturbing.
a) DD's are tough, too tough i mean one eel should at least disable her,but this is rare to observe,most of times she still want to get my puny sub between DC even if she got struck near DC platforms.
b) Stationary Yamato is virtually impossible to sink:
I found her on Truk anchorage and struck her 19 times without dud's. She just bank to the starboard and nothing happened for 24 h and possibly more. ( got too much Co2 to wait longer and Ducimus planes don't mess around :03:)

Modlist:
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
LST_TMO_v2
TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_3_SH4

Just report, no true complains here.

[Bubblehead1980]

First of all thank you - finally i have a mod with satsfying sinking mechanics i waiting for this since game relase :ENORMOUS MONSTER BEER:
Second: Yet i found two things that are quite disturbing.
a) DD's are tough, too tough i mean one eel should at least disable her,but this is rare to observe,most of times she still want to get my puny sub between DC even if she got struck near DC platforms.
b) Stationary Yamato is virtually impossible to sink:
I found her on Truk anchorage and struck her 19 times without dud's. She just bank to the starboard and nothing happened for 24 h and possibly more. ( got too much Co2 to wait longer and Ducimus planes don't mess around :03:)

Modlist:
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
LST_TMO_v2
TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_3_SH4

Just report, no true complains here.


Yamato was a big tub, stationary in shallow water, she listed but water may have not been deep enough for her to sink.LST delays awarding credit until the ship is under usually unless you manage to set off a huge explosion like with a tanker or hit a warship in the magazine.I remember a modder explaining once that the ships do have "damage control", the "crew" repairs the ship, fights flooding etc if possible, their ability is set according to the skill level.TMO sets most capital warships to "veteran" skill level, so you have a tub like the Yamato in a shallow harbor, no longer operating on the hit points system but running with LST, so that is most likely why she just took a list.I have yet to run into the Yamato since began using LST.I did just bag the fleet carrier Taiho at The Battle of the Philippine Sea around noon on the 19th(would have had her earlier but the airstrikes began to launch and forced me to dive, plus the TF changed course) when they did so, had been tracking them since 0430) with 6 torpedoes, she exploded and sank in about 25 minutes. I am running RSRD though, so can have the historical ship movements.I plan to try and find the Yamato and Musashi during Leyte Gulf camapign, will set how many it takes in deep waters.I set the skill level in RSRD from competent to Elite and Veteran for the Yamato class, they were tough ships.

[utops]

*snip*.
Yamato in on the move, should go down easly in 3-4 hits,because she got pretty this "/" -< angle of lean towards sea line after 3 well placed eels, rest of 16 don't affect her at all. Thing is she likely hang in some sort of game engine "bug" and there is no force from momemntum to push her over it.

King George V goes down after 5 eels in Fremantle when testing this mod so as japanese fleet carrier ( i can't recall name) in Truk and it takes just 2 eels - must been lucky to hit fuel storage i think.

This is not critical i can life with it,but just a little disturbing.
When you meet Yamato or Musashi on the run let me know how it goes, im curious.

[fitzcarraldo]

First of all thank you - finally i have a mod with satsfying sinking mechanics i waiting for this since game relase :ENORMOUS MONSTER BEER:
Second: Yet i found two things that are quite disturbing.
a) DD's are tough, too tough i mean one eel should at least disable her,but this is rare to observe,most of times she still want to get my puny sub between DC even if she got struck near DC platforms.
b) Stationary Yamato is virtually impossible to sink:
I found her on Truk anchorage and struck her 19 times without dud's. She just bank to the starboard and nothing happened for 24 h and possibly more. ( got too much Co2 to wait longer and Ducimus planes don't mess around :03:)

Modlist:
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
LST_TMO_v2
TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_3_SH4

Just report, no true complains here.

I play the Webster´s Torpedo Training Missions for try this mod.

I hit the stationary Yamato with 12 fishes, the ship banked to starboard and didn´t sink. I watched three days (!!!!), and the ship is here, banked but floating. It seems some is wrong in the LST mod: I think Yamato is a hard duck to die, but 3 days with 12 torpedoes in her belly is too much!!!

Incidentally, I sunk the stationary Fuso with four Mk. 14, in 6 minutes: Too fast, it seems.

I recommend the Webster´s training missions mod for these test!

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[DrBeast]

I play the Webster´s Torpedo Training Missions for try this mod.

I hit the stationary Yamato with 12 fishes, the ship banked to starboard and didn´t sink. I watched three days (!!!!), and the ship is here, banked but floating. It seems some is wrong in the LST mod: I think Yamato is a hard duck to die, but 3 days with 12 torpedoes in her belly is too much!!!

Incidentally, I sunk the stationary Fuso with four Mk. 14, in 6 minutes: Too fast, it seems.

I recommend the Webster´s training missions mod for these test!

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

Something to keep in mind when testing mods using Missions: results can vary greatly compared to a Campaign game! The reason? Gods know, but it happens. :hmmm:

[fitzcarraldo]

Something to keep in mind when testing mods using Missions: results can vary greatly compared to a Campaign game! The reason? Gods know, but it happens. :hmmm:

Thanks, DrBeast: yes, Gods know...

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Fragtzack]

Love this mod for sinking effects.

I found that 1 torp seems to sink a ship except large warships every time.

I think the problem is related to the splash damage of the torps damaging multiple zones with a single hit. If a single torp hits near the zone boundaries and then floods 2 compartments(zones), the ship will almost always sink because this mod increased the flotability factor of each compartment(zone) by a large amount. Seems that a torp damaging only a single compartment(zone) is the exception and not the norm.

So...

I modified downward the flotability factor of the zones closer to the original settings and ships do not seem to sink as easy now. The long sink times with flooding effect graphics and the manner in which the ships roll over during sinking is intact though.


Still work in progress, needs more stick time on this. Can't decrease the flotability too much other wise the ships will be- very hard to sink since the torp power is cut in half. May need to reduce the torp splash damage instead of reducing zone flotablity anymore.

[Bubblehead1980]

Love this mod for sinking effects.

I found that 1 torp seems to sink a ship except large warships every time.

I think the problem is related to the splash damage of the torps damaging multiple zones with a single hit. If a single torp hits near the zone boundaries and then floods 2 compartments(zones), the ship will almost always sink because this mod increased the flotability factor of each compartment(zone) by a large amount. Seems that a torp damaging only a single compartment(zone) is the exception and not the norm.

So...

I modified downward the flotability factor of the zones closer to the original settings and ships do not seem to sink as easy now. The long sink times with flooding effect graphics and the manner in which the ships roll over during sinking is intact though.


Still work in progress, needs more stick time on this. Can't decrease the flotability too much other wise the ships will be- very hard to sink since the torp power is cut in half. May need to reduce the torp splash damage instead of reducing zone flotablity anymore.


Glad someone is addressing this, great mod which I wont play without bc it is more realistic, I once had a tanker stay afloat two days(pursued rest of convoy until out of fish, never got a ship sunk message so came back to scene of attack nearly 48 hours later,10k ton tanker was afloat, listing hard but afloat, gave her the coup de grace and slipped under.

Large warships like BB's do sink too easily with this mod most of the time.SKill level seems to have an effect also, those set to vet and elite dont seem to go as easy, esp if only one torpedo unless in critical area.

One trade off I appreciate is not every battleships was tough to sink with torpedoes.Pretty much all of them went down to 3 or 4 fish other than the Yamato, there may be other examples but thinking about Prince of Wales, pearl harbor ships the went down to torpedo hits, 3 or 4(although they were surprised Fuso class at Surigao Strait, HMS Barham in the Med etc etc.Flaw is, one fish should not sink a BB though.Quite the balancing act.

[Bilge_Rat]

guys, feel free to modify this mod as you wish. If someone can improve on it, so much the better.

the SH sinking model is somewhat simple, so it will never work perfectly with every ship or every situation.

[Hylander_1314]

a) DD's are tough, too tough i mean one eel should at least disable her,but this is rare to observe,most of times she still want to get my puny sub between DC even if she got struck near DC platforms.
b) Stationary Yamato is virtually impossible to sink:
I found her on Truk anchorage and struck her 19 times without dud's.

The DDs harassing you after getting hit once, should either sink, or turn tail, and leave if damaged. The ones that are tough though, are the Akizuki and Fubuki DDs. For some reason, maybe because they are bigger boats, take more torpedoes to destroy. The other DDs usually sink, or leave the area listing badly.

As for the Yamato, yes 19 torpedoes should have sunk her. Being in Truk though, you need to know how much water there is between the hull and the bottom.

What I found works great if they are in shallower waters, is concentrate on the area right even with the back of B turret on the forward section, and just forward of the aft main turret, and the area just ahead of there where the boilers and engine rooms would be. But as a note, here is what the Yamato took before she actually did sink:

"After a dozen torpedo hits, even the Yamato 's 1,000 watertight compartments couldn't save her, and her lower decks rapidly began to flood. A Curtiss Helldiver bomber like the one seen at right photographed the destruction. At this point, after just a few hours of battle, most of the American pilots returned to their carriers, knowing Yamato 's injuries were fatal. In all, Yamato took 12 bomb and seven torpedo hits within two hours of battle."

Source:

Yamato The Ultimate Battleship
http://battleshipyamato.info/

Cool little history of the boat.

[Bilge_Rat]

I ran some tests with IJN BBs to see if there was an issue.

except for the Yamato class, any other IJN BB can be sunk with a well placed spread of 2-3 torpedoes.

The Yamato is in a class of its own. I have sunk one with 6 torpedoes, sometimes it takes more.

Considering that there is only 2 Yamato class BB in the Pacific, I dont see the need for a change.

[maxswain]

This is a great mod and you should try it! Variety of horrors as she slides into the abyss! You have the time to stand on the deck and contemplate the sharks!:D

[in_vino_vomitus]

I have no idea why, but for the life of me I can't download this mod :( is it still on mediafire?

[fitzcarraldo]

I have no idea why, but for the life of me I can't download this mod :( is it still on mediafire?

The mod is still ion MF and the link is live.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[fitzcarraldo]

The mod is still in MF and the link is live.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[in_vino_vomitus]

I guess I need to try harder then :hmmm:

[Gryffon300]

2 questions:
1- Is there a reason that this excellent-sounding mod is not under the 'Gameplay Mods' section of the SH4 Downloads forum?; and,
2- in the readme for this mod, Bilge Rat recommends also installing The DarkWraith's 'Ship Damage from Fires' Mod. Now, again, that mod is not in the SH4 downloads, but I did find (somewhere, I lost it in all the forum jumping) TDW's thread on it where it seemed to say that it was usable in SH3, 4 & 5 (though I didn't find the exact mod, but a large, multiple-patched-version mod that seemed to include this function in the long list of gameplay 'fixes' that TDW addressed). I like the concepts described in there, so has anyone gone that route and is using it for SH4 (1.5 + TMO + RSDRDC +OTC)?

Thanks

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

I've installed the fire damage mod and it's not causing conflicts - It hasn't been in use long enough for me to say how effective it seems to be. I still can't get to the LST mod though :(

[Gryffon300]

I've installed the fire damage mod and it's not causing conflicts - It hasn't been in use long enough for me to say how effective it seems to be. I still can't get to the LST mod though :(
That's strange. Its not a big mod, so maybe someone could email it to you directly? BUT, before you do, maybe someone could offer an opinion on my first 'encounter' with the LST Mod? I will drop in a copy of comments I left on another thread:

"It got even better tonight. A new 'bug' (or a modder with a seriously twisted sense of humour) got me big time with the most anti-immersive 'tick' yet. I loaded the highly praised 'Longer Sinking Times for TMO v2'. I caught a FC with 4 trailing escorts, saved, then waited while he came to me at the perfect spot at 700 yds and put three into the wee beastie. The mod DID slow down the sinking (by a couple of minutes) BUT, the effect was ruined by the dozen life rafts that were trying to imitate Mexican jumping beans! They were jumping and spinning on the waves higher than the length of the carrier (going off the screen at the top of their trajectory). It went from the sublime to the ridiculous with a few of them still bouncing away about 2 miles away 10 minutes later. Now tell me that THAT isn't weird!

Always interesting.. "

Anyone have a suggestion about what might be going on? :hmmm:

Thanks

Gryff

[Bubblehead1980]

That's strange. Its not a big mod, so maybe someone could email it to you directly? BUT, before you do, maybe someone could offer an opinion on my first 'encounter' with the LST Mod? I will drop in a copy of comments I left on another thread:

"It got even better tonight. A new 'bug' (or a modder with a seriously twisted sense of humour) got me big time with the most anti-immersive 'tick' yet. I loaded the highly praised 'Longer Sinking Times for TMO v2'. I caught a FC with 4 trailing escorts, saved, then waited while he came to me at the perfect spot at 700 yds and put three into the wee beastie. The mod DID slow down the sinking (by a couple of minutes) BUT, the effect was ruined by the dozen life rafts that were trying to imitate Mexican jumping beans! They were jumping and spinning on the waves higher than the length of the carrier (going off the screen at the top of their trajectory). It went from the sublime to the ridiculous with a few of them still bouncing away about 2 miles away 10 minutes later. Now tell me that THAT isn't weird!

Always interesting.. "

Anyone have a suggestion about what might be going on? :hmmm:

Thanks

Gryff

Webster's lifeboat fix will solve the fast moving lifeboat problem.

[Bilge_Rat]

nice to see this is still getting play.

actually I have a new version, more of tweak really, that I have been using for a few months. I will upload it next week.

[Gryffon300]

Webster's lifeboat fix will solve the fast moving lifeboat problem.

Gracias, amigo. Will try that out! :salute:

Gryff

[Gryffon300]

nice to see this is still getting play.

actually I have a new version, more of tweak really, that I have been using for a few months. I will upload it next week.

Thanks, BR, look forward to it.

As an aside, do you know where I should go to get the DarkWraith's fire mod?

Salut! :salute:

Gryff

[Gryffon300]

nice to see this is still getting play.

actually I have a new version, more of tweak really, that I have been using for a few months. I will upload it next week.

PS, I could not find your mod in the SH4 "Downloads" section (and I looked fairly hard for it). It appears that this thread is the only place it appears. Maybe it would be better known and utilised if you uploaded it there as well? (Assuming it's not there and I just missed it in the Gameplay Mods thread.)

Just a thought.

Regards

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

Thanks, BR, look forward to it.

As an aside, do you know where I should go to get the DarkWraith's fire mod?

Salut! :salute:

Gryff

Here it is.........:salute:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20131678/TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3_7z

[Gryffon300]

Here it is.........:salute:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20131678/TDW_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3_7z
Thanks, mate! :D

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

Bitte....... :)

[Gryffon300]

OK, I have a strong suspicion that there is something wrong. I know I'm Pretty Terrific, but I've just had a 218,433 ton mission! Bragging rights seem a little tarnished if one suspects one is being given an unfair advantage.

I'm running at 85%, or occasionally 75% realism if I want some shots (but DON'T use external camera for anything other than screen shots). Here is my current Mod line-up (in this order):
TMO 2.5
RSRDC TMO V502
RSRDC V5xx Patch1
1.5 OTC 031312 for RSRDC v502
OTC Gato Sonar Bearing Fix
Less Plankton 1.2
LST TMO v2
TDW Ship Plane Fire Damage v1 4 SH3
Websters Real Lifeboats Fix for v1.5

(I'm also intending playing with adding TMO17 19 Different Smoke. I have ensured that the data file in each folder is only one level down - no 'nested' duplicate folders.)

Now, here is my "problem". On this latest cruise (a new Balao), I took out a Fleet Carrier with two torps. "Lucky", I thought. Then went on to a bunch of solo merchants with gun, and the last one I had to add a torp to finish him off as I'd run out of ammo. No worries. But THEN, I intercepted the best task force I have ever seen. BBs; FCs; HCs; LCs and a bunch of DDs.

It was a hairy engagement, with me initially positioned at 90 degrees in the middle of the 4 columns so I could fire fore and aft. I elected to assign only two torps to each of 5 targets in the initial round. I expected to get one, maybe, but really, I was only expecting to be able to slow them down so I could take them out later once re-loaded.

In this extended engagement (including a 125 nm chase, through 3 re-positionings to intercept ahead of the fleeing TF that did two 90 degree course changes before finally getting at the remaining Kongo), I launched 22 torps, for 18 impacts and 4 misses (AND NO DUDS OR PREMIS!! - that's another thing - what happened to the dud scenario?? OK 50% was probably silly, but this seems a tad low...)

So, Shokaku FC; Kongo BB; Hiyo FC; Hiyo FC; Kuma LC; Kongo BB for 178,998 tons ALL on two torps each (except the last Kongo, and that was unnecessary, as I was tired and couldn't be bothered with another long chase to try and do a single fore and aft shot to try and get one of the Takao Heavies.)

Now, I know the instruction manuals suggest up to 10 torps for a BB - not bad, but maybe a tad OTT, even if realistic, but justifiable. BUT, all those BBs and FCs consistently on only 2 torps each? I know I'm good, but I'm not that good. Something is off.

Comments? (Other than, "What's your beef, you Lucky Bastard?" I know: there's just no pleasing some people....) Recommendations? :hmm2:

Gryff

[Gryffon300]

Webster's lifeboat fix will solve the fast moving lifeboat problem.

Thanks, BH. Yep, that indeed fixed the problem (I ran the 'offending' scenario by re-starting the saved game just prior to my attack half a dozen times with the mod variously on or off. Bouncing rafts every time without, no probs with it on. So. Sorted.

Danke. :salute:

Gryff

[TorpX]

You don't say what the date is, but since you are in a Balao, it must be well into the war. The worst of the torpedo problems were fixed after 18 mo., so you shouldn't have many duds or prematures.

As for the seeming fraility of the enemy ships, I don't know. This is the only thing I can see that might explain it:

TDW Ship Plane Fire Damage v1 4 SH3

Or, maybe you're just very, very lucky. :woot:

[Gryffon300]

You don't say what the date is, but since you are in a Balao, it must be well into the war. The worst of the torpedo problems were fixed after 18 mo., so you shouldn't have many duds or prematures.

As for the seeming fraility of the enemy ships, I don't know. This is the only thing I can see that might explain it:

TDW Ship Plane Fire Damage v1 4 SH3

Or, maybe you're just very, very lucky. :woot:


The mission was Jan-Feb 43.
I suspect this indeed is where the issue may lie (though the mod is supposed to lower Hit Points per torp, and there wasn't much time for fire effects to really come into play).

Thanks for the input. I'll explore with the modder.

Regards

Gryff

PS, on re-reading my original post, I sounded like a wuss to myself, so went back and re-ran the last engagement, altering the attack profile. This time, I put a rear into the Kongo on a perfect side-on at 2,000 for a straight shot, followed by an intended forward shot after a flank turn to come to bear. The Kongo, in the interim, had slowed from 16 to six knots (ONE ONE TORP to the guts! - with no spread offset). I had contemplated waiting to see what would happen, so had paralleled, but the damage control boys must have been doing a good job, because speed increased up through to 8 knots, so, I nosed over and put in the coup de grace.

THEN, I had two forwards to take out the Takao passing at 3,000 at 30 knots. So, I'm afraid I'm now up to a total gross tonnage of 234,303. Bizarre, but kinda nice....

[BigWalleye]

Balao, the class lead boat, was commissioned 4 Feb 1943 and reported to Brisbane for operational duty on 10 July 1943. How did you get one six months earlier, you lucky dog? If you had enough pull at BuShips to get a Balao rushed into service 6 months early, you probably got the top-secret developmental ultra-high-explosive torpedo warheads as well.:)

I urge you to be VERY careful on your next patrol, because you used up a lot of good luck on that one!

On the other hand, if you are always this lucky, who do you like in the World Cup?:D

[Bilge_Rat]

the only thing my mod does is increase how long it takes for ships to sink, roughly 10x longer than stock. It does not change the hit boxes.

v2 lowered the torp damage by 50% with corresponding reduction in the ship damage, to maximize the chances that the ships will sink from flooding. Make sure both files are installed and have not been overwritten.

Most BBs take 2-4 torps to sink. Yamato generally takes 6+. CAs 2-3, DDs 1-2 which actually fits in to historical accounts.

CVs will sink with as little as 1-2 torps, may be a problem with the stock game, although again this matches most historical accounts.

[Stoli151]

the only thing my mod does is increase how long it takes for ships to sink, roughly 10x longer than stock. It does not change the hit boxes.

v2 lowered the torp damage by 50% with corresponding reduction in the ship damage, to maximize the chances that the ships will sink from flooding. Make sure both files are installed and have not been overwritten.

Most BBs take 2-4 torps to sink. Yamato generally takes 6+. CAs 2-3, DDs 1-2 which actually fits in to historical accounts.

CVs will sink with as little as 1-2 torps, may be a problem with the stock game, although again this matches most historical accounts.I like the idea of ships sinking by flooding in your mod. However, after reading "Clear the bridge" by Dick O'kane, he describes many of the ships he torpedoed going down in a few minutes to several seconds. If you put enough holes in a steel vessel it completely loses buoyancy. After that, the vessel becomes just a piece of steel in water. Put just a piece of steel in water, it will sink rather quickly. Is there any way to randomize some quick sinkings in the mod? Or better yet, have some quick sinkings based on how your torpedoes hit the vessel?

[TorpX]

Most BBs take 2-4 torps to sink. Yamato generally takes 6+.

This seems rather low to me.

[Stoli151]

This seems rather low to me.
Was this post intended for me? I was not referring to the amount of torpedoes that take to sink a vessel in the mod, which I do think is accurate. I was referring to the speed of the sinkings. I just thought it may be a good idea to have some vessels go down quickly under certain circumstances, if possible, depending on vessel type, torpedo hits and where hit.

[Gryffon300]

Balao, the class lead boat, was commissioned 4 Feb 1943 and reported to Brisbane for operational duty on 10 July 1943. How did you get one six months earlier, you lucky dog? If you had enough pull at BuShips to get a Balao rushed into service 6 months early, you probably got the top-secret developmental ultra-high-explosive torpedo warheads as well.:)

I urge you to be VERY careful on your next patrol, because you used up a lot of good luck on that one!

On the other hand, if you are always this lucky, who do you like in the World Cup?:D
Ah, well, I think they were a little awe-struck with the last couple of missions, that, plus the fact that the head of the R&D Commissioning group inside the BuSub has a little brother in the submarine force. He is a Nav on a certain sub currently operating out of Midway. No names, no pack-drill, as they say in the Ground Pounders. You think maybe that helped?

OK, guys, maybe I have been too pessimistic about the number of torps it takes to put 'em down. I'm certainly getting much better results than I ever did in SH3, but then I'm paying much more attention to depth settings, so maybe that's paying off. (That and Robert Oppenheimer obviously tweaking the yield on the torpex!!) Having said that, BilgeRat's changes certainly adds a nicer sinking profile (though I'm still chasing a failure to show some sinkings and therefore credit them.)

This cruise, so far, I've caught a convoy of smallish merchants heading into Wewak, but was too late to then intercept a Pelau to Truck group, also advised via Flash-traffic. So, I decided to infiltrate Truck (as I've done successfully before).

I think you are right about the luck thing - I tagged a HC doing 18 knots heading South near Truck with 2 torps set on slow at 6,200. Sloppy skip in a hurry - no zig-zag. Previously, I would never have bothered 'wasting' two precious torps on a shot like that - KNOWING I would never have had a prayer!

Now, I'm in Truck main lagoon whiling away the day (April 18, '43) till I can go after the at-anchor TF (I have to do it at Radar Depth, so definitely a night time raid). I'll surface and breath and recharge for an hour or so after moon-set, then head in for the 3 HCs, the FC, and, the piece de resistance, the Yamato. First time I've encountered The Beast.

So, maybe I've just got a cauldron-full of the Luck of the Irish - so, as to your question, I like Bhutan for the World Cup. Now, I know they are not even in it (at this time), but what the heck? That would be no more unlikely than the results I seem to be having!

Thanks all, gotta go and see if I can sink the Yamato with a 'Cutie'!

Cheers

Gryff

PS, I've just seen my new 'image' and tag. Now where DID you guys dig up the picture of me in the "Crossing the Line" outfit the first time I had to get done up as Neptune's Daughter.? That's way before I grew the beard, back when I was a handsome cove. Thanks for the memories...

[Gryffon300]

Make sure both files are installed and have not been overwritten.

You've got me curious now, BR...

When un-zipping, the file structure unpacks like this:
LST_TMOv2
-LST_TMOv2
--Data (plus read me + zones cfg explained)
---Library (plus zones cfg)
----TorpedosUS

So, following JSGME's manual, I eliminated the first LST_TMOv2 duplicate folder. It installed fine (from memory JSGME indicated a list of files that would be altered prior to 'enabling').

So, can you clarify what you mean by 'both files' and what should 'not be overwritten'. (I'm usually the one that gets accused of 'over writing', so if I have done so, it would not surprise me....)

Thanks

Gryff (Of the FABULOUS shade of lipstick!)

PS where did my recently donated "One night in Bangkok" tag and photo go? I already miss it!

[TorpX]

This seems rather low to me.

Was this post intended for me? I was not referring to the amount of torpedoes that take to sink a vessel in the mod, which I do think is accurate. I was referring to the speed of the sinkings. I just thought it may be a good idea to have some vessels go down quickly under certain circumstances, if possible, depending on vessel type, torpedo hits and where hit.
No, I was commenting on Bilge Rat's statement. 2 to 4 torps for a BB seems very low. The Yamato took almost 20 bomb/torp hits before it sank. Granted, the last 5 or 6 might have been unnecessary, but I have doubts 6 would do it.

[Gryffon300]

Was this post intended for me? I was not referring to the amount of torpedoes that take to sink a vessel in the mod, which I do think is accurate. I was referring to the speed of the sinkings. I just thought it may be a good idea to have some vessels go down quickly under certain circumstances, if possible, depending on vessel type, torpedo hits and where hit.

Nah, he was commenting on the BR comment that it would take as few as 2 torps to down a BB, with 6+ for the Yamato.

As to your comment about variable sinking times, fear not!: the BR has done a great job, particularly if taken together with TDW's fire damage mod, in ensuring SOME ships take a long time to sink, by virtue of flooding and/or fire eventually overwhelming the floatation. This means, as my poor understanding has it, that it's no longer just a matter of accumulating enough Hit Points and 'Boom' down you go. So, that's great.

On the other hand, to address your implicit concern about not having enough variety in sinking styles, I have been re-running an attack scenario all morning to check out various criteria. I have a nice Furutaka Heavy (which, fellows, as an aside, is incorrectly weight listed in the game at 7100 tons - at this stage, with the upgrades done {way before the war - to accommodate planes etc}, it should be north of 9,000 - I think :hmm2:) running on a straight line at 1500@18 knots. I was experimenting with a SINGLE torpedo take-down, playing with depth settings and spread angles. I have run the scenario a dozen times (I saved about thirty seconds before the initial attack, so its quick to run!).

At just shy of 25' depth (which, on the face of it, would seem to be too much!!), I am getting a lovely explosion and fire, a slow down, but no sink (even after following him with external camera for a couple of hours) WITH ONE EXCEPTION! With a spread angle setting of '3' toward the bow, I get a hit just below the main forward turret, a LOVELY, ginormous explosion (Magazine, obviously) and she pretends to be a submarine on Crash Dive and goes down in about a minute, still doing about 15 knots, I'd guess. She salutes the sky with the back quarter at about 70 degrees and slides under with no fuss. So, worry not, randomisation is alive and well, as are sinkings from hitting hyper-vulnerable spots.

Regards

Gryff :arrgh!:

[Gryffon300]

the only thing my mod does is increase how long it takes for ships to sink, roughly 10x longer than stock. It does not change the hit boxes.

v2 lowered the torp damage by 50% with corresponding reduction in the ship damage, to maximize the chances that the ships will sink from flooding. Make sure both files are installed and have not been overwritten.

Most BBs take 2-4 torps to sink. Yamato generally takes 6+. CAs 2-3, DDs 1-2 which actually fits in to historical accounts.

CVs will sink with as little as 1-2 torps, may be a problem with the stock game, although again this matches most historical accounts.

Something occurs to me that is obvious when I finally thought about it, and that is the possibility of much higher tonnages from patrols FROM the DECK GUN, when the LST (and TDW's fire damage?) mod/s are used.

I use the gun. A lot. I shoot until the Engineer informs me, "We hit him! He is going down!" Now that this mod is in the mix, I will have to try using, say, half the expected number of shots, then withdraw and observe the effects of fire and flood. If things go as they might, I may end up nearly doubling the tonnage. What do you skippers think? :hmm2:

Gryff

[Bubblehead1980]

I have found LST behavior to be very realistic, all depends on where and how you hit your target and of course, the target.


One example is the Nippon Maru Tanker-10000 tons. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 Mark 14/23 , sometimes one, depends on where and what the tanker is loaded with.If loaded with fuel, they light up like a zippo lighter. Mark 18's pack less of a punch, but if they hit the ship right, they will sink her. Sometimes, one well placed fish will cause flooding and ship will sink hours later, just depends. Crew rating also has an effect on how they sunk, vet and elite crews handle damage better and can keep a ship from sinking, where as those set to competent, novice or poor have a more difficult time.

One torpedo will usually do in the smaller merchants and warships, although the small Haruna Maru tanker is way too tough, one fish should take it out, took 4 to finish one off.

I hit the Yamato with 3 Mark 18's, did nothing.I hit a Late War Ise BB with six, it crippled her, left her dead in water and listing but would not sink, needed more fish.Unfortunately my torpedo tubes were all wiped out by her escorts, so never was able to sink her before I left the area.

I once had to hit Yamato with 12 torpedoes to get a sinking. Sink the Yamato with 6? You got lucky, they hit just right and caused catastrophic damage.Crew rating matters as I said, noticed in some years in RSRD Yamato is set to veteran or elite, in later years, its set to competent.I hit her with three fish and she sailed on like nothing, set to competent in 1945.

usually takes 3-4 for heavy cruisers, which is accurate. So many variables which makes it fun.but I stand by, from what ive see LST is realistic as can probably get in SH 4.Carriers were pretty fragile in WW II, large but they were not armored mostly.Taiho for example was sunk by a single Mark 14 hit, caused damage to avgas storage tanks, vapors built up, kaboom.


My general rule is for a Large tanker or merchant...3-4 fish. Medium, 2-3. Smaller 1-2. Warships such as a carrier, BB, worth all six.

[Bubblehead1980]

Something occurs to me that is obvious when I finally thought about it, and that is the possibility of much higher tonnages from patrols FROM the DECK GUN, when the LST (and TDW's fire damage?) mod/s are used.

I use the gun. A lot. I shoot until the Engineer informs me, "We hit him! He is going down!" Now that this mod is in the mix, I will have to try using, say, half the expected number of shots, then withdraw and observe the effects of fire and flood. If things go as they might, I may end up nearly doubling the tonnage. What do you skippers think? :hmm2:

Gryff


Well, once you start a fire, it does help.I rarely waste torpedos on small merchants such as the Taihosan, sea conditions permitting use deck gun on them.Once start a fire and score a few solid hits around the stack, its a matter of time.Few hits in the waterline helps as well.

[Gryffon300]

Well, once you start a fire, it does help.I rarely waste torpedos on small merchants such as the Taihosan, sea conditions permitting use deck gun on them.Once start a fire and score a few solid hits around the stack, its a matter of time.Few hits in the waterline helps as well.
Well, BH, you must be getting to know me a bit by now. Having thought of the technique, I couldn't help myself: had to test the hypothesis.

While waiting around south of Truck to go in by night (and take out some surface merchants by gun while I'm at it), a co-operative Akita Maru happened along doing 11 knots. Instead of banging away at a round every ten seconds or so, I slowed right down to maybe one every 30 to 60 seconds.

I ran off 10 or so HE rounds at above 70% accuracy (lumpy seas @ 4,500), then wandered over on camera to inspect damage. He had dropped from 11 to 4 knots, and I saw 4 nice holes in the hull, low enough to be getting some flooding. I watched for 15 or so minutes and two things happened:
1- I had a thought about the rate of damage vs the rate of repair from Damage Control teams - an issue with this technique (you beat me to it, BH, without knowing what the crew levels are on my target (or how to look them up yet,) this factor will play a significant role); and,
2- I watched as her speed increased to 8 knots. "Ah, well", I thought, "one experiment doesn't make a scientific study", but then, with no fanfare (and no fire observed at any stage), she started to list. Within 3 minutes it was all over. I wonder what would have happened if I had only put 5 rounds into her? More testing....

Of course, if the consideration is accumulating tonnage, being confident that an over-the-horizon sinking an hour or a day later will be credited to your 'kill' list is essential. Of this, I am not sure.

So, as a further experiment "tonight", instead of blasting away till they are sunk, I will lob, say, ten rounds into each merchant anchored in Truck that I can safely access, then move on to attack the Task Force. I can give them 8, or maybe 24 hours (depending if I run out of dark-hours and have to lay low for the day), before I come back out and finish off the survivors.

I'll let you know how it goes (if I survive).:salute:

Gryff

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, BH, you must be getting to know me a bit by now. Having thought of the technique, I couldn't help myself: had to test the hypothesis.

While waiting around south of Truck to go in by night (and take out some surface merchants by gun while I'm at it), a co-operative Akita Maru happened along doing 11 knots. Instead of banging away at a round every ten seconds or so, I slowed right down to maybe one every 30 to 60 seconds.

I ran off 10 or so HE rounds at above 70% accuracy (lumpy seas @ 4,500), then wandered over on camera to inspect damage. He had dropped from 11 to 4 knots, and I saw 4 nice holes in the hull, low enough to be getting some flooding. I watched for 15 or so minutes and two things happened:
1- I had a thought about the rate of damage vs the rate of repair from Damage Control teams - an issue with this technique (you beat me to it, BH, without knowing what the crew levels are on my target (or how to look them up yet,) this factor will play a significant role); and,
2- I watched as her speed increased to 8 knots. "Ah, well", I thought, "one experiment doesn't make a scientific study", but then, with no fanfare (and no fire observed at any stage), she started to list. Within 3 minutes it was all over. I wonder what would have happened if I had only put 5 rounds into her? More testing....

Of course, if the consideration is accumulating tonnage, being confident that an over-the-horizon sinking an hour or a day later will be credited to your 'kill' list is essential. Of this, I am not sure.

So, as a further experiment "tonight", instead of blasting away till they are sunk, I will lob, say, ten rounds into each merchant anchored in Truck that I can safely access, then move on to attack the Task Force. I can give them 8, or maybe 24 hours (depending if I run out of dark-hours and have to lay low for the day), before I come back out and finish off the survivors.

I'll let you know how it goes (if I survive).:salute:

Gryff

Can find out their crew level by going to the proper file in the campaign files, open up with the ME.If raiding Truk, open the japharbortraffic file. Find the location and see what the ship(s) are set to.

Sounds like crew repaired some damage, started moving but the flooding from the waterline hits overtook them and ship was lost.I would guess crew setting was "competent" as much merchants in RSRD are set at. I've attacked a tanker set to elite before, expertly avoided 2 of 4 torpedoes at night(given the moon was out, could see very well) , but while escorts kept me at 350 feet dodging depth charges, crew made repairs to get 6 knots out of the tanker, she sailed on a bit until i slipped away, surfaced, and moved in while escorts were depth charging whales etc. I dove again, closed to 800 yards, fired two more, both hit, left her a flaming wreck, crew kept her afloat until a final torpedo caused a catastrophic explosion, she split in two and sank quickly.

Tanker with a "normal" crew wouldve prob been finished after the first two.

[Gryffon300]

Can find out their crew level by going to the proper file in the campaign files, open up with the ME.If raiding Truk, open the japharbortraffic file. Find the location and see what the ship(s) are set to.

Sounds like crew repaired some damage, started moving but the flooding from the waterline hits overtook them and ship was lost.I would guess crew setting was "competent" as much merchants in RSRD are set at. I've attacked a tanker set to elite before, expertly avoided 2 of 4 torpedoes at night(given the moon was out, could see very well) , but while escorts kept me at 350 feet dodging depth charges, crew made repairs to get 6 knots out of the tanker, she sailed on a bit until i slipped away, surfaced, and moved in while escorts were depth charging whales etc. I dove again, closed to 800 yards, fired two more, both hit, left her a flaming wreck, crew kept her afloat until a final torpedo caused a catastrophic explosion, she split in two and sank quickly.

Tanker with a "normal" crew wouldve prob been finished after the first two.
Great story, BH. :up: I can see it all. (Though HOW any tanker, full of volatiles, survives any explosive hit, I can't fathom - pumped-in CO2 notwithstanding.) Your last image puts me in mind of a great final scene (where the evil slime-ball gets his come-uppence) in that oldy, but goody by Wilbur Smith, 'Hungry as the Sea'. Must re-read that.
Gryff

[Bubblehead1980]

Great story, BH. :up: I can see it all. (Though HOW any tanker, full of volatiles, survives any explosive hit, I can't fathom - pumped-in CO2 notwithstanding.) Your last image puts me in mind of a great final scene (where the evil slime-ball gets his come-uppence) in that oldy, but goody by Wilbur Smith, 'Hungry as the Sea'. Must re-read that.
Gryff


Well tanker I spoke of was loaded with "Freight" not fuel or ammo.The big boom came from exploding the boilers. When they have fuel, they explode quite nicely when hit them just right.During night surface attack, fired 3 fish each at two big tankers, they both exploded after one torpedo.They were 500 yards apart, it looked like one massive fireball, it took out the poor Type A CD as well as a small taihosan maru freighter, so four ships went down.Always fun when that happens.

[Gryffon300]

Well tanker I spoke of was loaded with "Freight" not fuel or ammo.The big boom came from exploding the boilers. When they have fuel, they explode quite nicely when hit them just right.During night surface attack, fired 3 fish each at two big tankers, they both exploded after one torpedo.They were 500 yards apart, it looked like one massive fireball, it took out the poor Type A CD as well as a small taihosan maru freighter, so four ships went down.Always fun when that happens.

Hoorah! :arrgh!:

G

[HertogJan]

nice to see this is still getting play.

actually I have a new version, more of tweak really, that I have been using for a few months. I will upload it next week.


Just wondering.. is it up yet?

[Bubblehead1980]

nice to see this is still getting play.

actually I have a new version, more of tweak really, that I have been using for a few months. I will upload it next week.


I find this mod is one of the essential ones actually, otherwise ships just sink too fast.Some ships do sink incredibly fast(as some did in rl) with this mod, just depends how the torpedoes hit and how many. Looking forward to the update.

[Gryffon300]

I find this mod is one of the essential ones actually, otherwise ships just sink too fast.Some ships do sink incredibly fast(as some did in rl) with this mod, just depends how the torpedoes hit and how many. Looking forward to the update.

Just spent an hour and a half composing some observations re sink times and kill credits based on the testing from last night's escapades, and teaching myself to resize and upload a screenshot and I accidentally closed the webpage and lost the lot. :/\\!! I'll go and sulk for a while and try again later...

Gryff with the Grumps :har:

[drakkhen20]

Defiantly dow loading when updated. :D sounds like a very immersive mod. Thanks guys for the hard work.

[Gryffon300]

Just spent an hour and a half composing some observations re sink times and kill credits based on the testing from last night's escapades, and teaching myself to resize and upload a screenshot and I accidentally closed the webpage and lost the lot. :/\\!! I'll go and sulk for a while and try again later...

Gryff with the Grumps :har:

OK, I've had an Adequate Sulk, so here is the outcome of my test/mission.

Snuck into Truck via south channel under cover of darkness and over 3 hours or so hit 6 merchants with gun using a limited number of rounds (10 each) (at 2 x Nippon; 2 x Monuyama; Akita; Buzyun) at two locations. (And, just for laughs, I took out a Small Subchaser with a 'cutie'. Quite liked that!) One merchant went down immediately, and another half an hour later. I got credit for these. The others went down throughout the night.

I set up in the channel north of Truck by 06:00 to wait out the day prior to going after the at-anchor Fleet undercover of darkness - at 52', you are too visible in daylight! So, at dawn I used the camera and 'flew' back and was flukey enough to see the last 5 minutes of the life of my second Nippon. At just after 7:30, I was able to watch as she slid under, heavily on fire. But, no credit.

This behaviour was confirmed later with the Fleet. I put on the bottom 2 x HCs; an ASW CV; an FC; and, the piece de resistance, the Yamato. The only one that I got 'credit' for was one of the HC's, because, courtesy of a previous mission, I knew just where to hit her with a single shot to take out the magazine. Huge multiple explosions, and almost instant announcement that she was going down. I'll see if I can show you an image of the other HC that I 'failed' to sink.

http://imageshack.us/a/img17/2843/ipcb.jpg
:nope: If the lights are on - it can't be sunk!

(As an aside, what's with the impossibly tough Small Subchasers? I had to put 10 HE and 3 APs into one and got the one last night with a perfect 'cutie' shot, but even so, they both subsequently took over 15 mins to sink!! Then, neither got marked on the map - but I did get Captain's Log credit for one).

So, in summary, without understanding the code for 'credits', it would seem that to get a red map marker and credit, you need to be within line-of-sight/hydrophone range AND garner enough Hit Points OR sufficient Fire and Flood PROVIDED it is in deep enough water to count as 'sunk'.

If you are after tonnage, and have the patience, limiting the ammo or torps you expend, then allowing time for the fire & flood to do their thing could get you a lot more tonnage. BUT, if you want credit (and, therefore, renown), you need to hang around. That can be bothersome (boring &/or dangerous!)

On the other hand, submariners and airmen would hit and run, often not knowing their results - hence JANAC and equivalents in other services...

Your choice - strategy vs realism. So there! :salute:

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

This is a tiny bit off-topic insofar as it doesn't relate to the LST mod per se, but it's relevant insofar as it's a comment on how much it improves gameplay not to have vessels go down like a Blackpool girl with no taxi fare. I continue to be highly impressed with the sinking mechanics in OM. One thing that happens when boats sink by flooding, over a long time, is it forces you to agonise over whether to give it another torpedo, hang about until the escorts are clear so's you can finish it with the deck gun, or just let it go.....

I hit this one about an hour before the screenshot. I fired two eels in a salvo, and a miscalculation meant that they hit two different ships - I probably should have given them a narrower spread. Anyway, I went deep, put the escorts astern, got notification that one of the hits had sunk, and when I came back to periscope depth I saw this............

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/9348615717_d18504b6f5_b.jpg

It sank about 15 mins later with no further attention from me.

The longest I've personally experienced has been just over two hours between detonation and sinking. Racing to overtake the convoy for a second attack, I saw smoke on the horizon from a straggler. It sank as I moved in to have a closer look...

Anyway, if I could make the link work I'd download the mod. I don't think it's needed in OM, but I'd like something to replicate that sinking model in other mods....

[Gryffon300]

Well tanker I spoke of was loaded with "Freight" not fuel or ammo.The big boom came from exploding the boilers. When they have fuel, they explode quite nicely when hit them just right.During night surface attack, fired 3 fish each at two big tankers, they both exploded after one torpedo.They were 500 yards apart, it looked like one massive fireball, it took out the poor Type A CD as well as a small taihosan maru freighter, so four ships went down.Always fun when that happens.

I meant to ask some time ago: How does a tanker have a cargo of 'freight'? Unless 'tankers' are being used as a generic term for Bulk Carriers? (In which case, 'Bulk Carrier' would have probably been the better catch-all term, with fuel, oil, avgas or other volatiles as a special case cargo, rather than imaging a 'Tanker' carrying coal or iron ore.... Or have I got the wrong end of the Ship ID issue?)

Regards

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

The cargo can be set to more or less anything, which is probably a bit unrealistic in the case of a single-purpose ship like a tanker.......

[Bubblehead1980]

I meant to ask some time ago: How does a tanker have a cargo of 'freight'? Unless 'tankers' are being used as a generic term for Bulk Carriers? (In which case, 'Bulk Carrier' would have probably been the better catch-all term, with fuel, oil, avgas or other volatiles as a special case cargo, rather than imaging a 'Tanker' carrying coal or iron ore.... Or have I got the wrong end of the Ship ID issue?)

Regards

Gryff


I agree, just how game was made.I went through RSRD and set nearly every tanker to fuel as cargo. Few that would perhaps be making a return trip do not. Too many did not have fuel as cargo though.Read so many accounts in various books of tankers going up in flames from one torpedo hit, the boom is pretty nice in the game.

[TorpX]

I agree. The game oversimplifies this aspect of ships. It is not just a question of whether they carry fuel or ammunition, but the volume and density of the cargo. From what I've read, ships loaded with steel, or iron ore tended to sink like stones.

[in_vino_vomitus]

Didn't they load Q-ships with wood with the same thought in mind?

[Gryffon300]

I agree, just how game was made.I went through RSRD and set nearly every tanker to fuel as cargo. Few that would perhaps be making a return trip do not. Too many did not have fuel as cargo though.Read so many accounts in various books of tankers going up in flames from one torpedo hit, the boom is pretty nice in the game.

This is starting to make so much more sense now. I could never figure why I've never had a tanker go BOOM. Even a recently unloaded tanker would not necessarily have been pumped with exhaust CO2 in those far off days, so would have been vulnerable to fume ignition.

(As an aside, does the game have the intelligence to adjust the draft depending on whether it is loaded or not? I've never seen a ship riding high showing a lot of anti-foul. Would be a nice touch for some crazy modder with time on their hands: or have I just not been paying attention?...)

Thanks, mates.

Gryff

[TorpX]

(As an aside, does the game have the intelligence to adjust the draft depending on whether it is loaded or not? I've never seen a ship riding high showing a lot of anti-foul.
No, unfortunately not, nor does it allow ships to be spawned already damaged.

[Bubblehead1980]

This is starting to make so much more sense now. I could never figure why I've never had a tanker go BOOM. Even a recently unloaded tanker would not necessarily have been pumped with exhaust CO2 in those far off days, so would have been vulnerable to fume ignition.

(As an aside, does the game have the intelligence to adjust the draft depending on whether it is loaded or not? I've never seen a ship riding high showing a lot of anti-foul. Would be a nice touch for some crazy modder with time on their hands: or have I just not been paying attention?...)

Thanks, mates.

Gryff

Yep, I was wondering the same, esp in the singapore-japan lanes where tanker filled with oil and fuel would be prevalent.Not sure if lurker did it on purpose or it was an oversight. I took time to alter them(pain in the rear having to use notepad) and the convoys i added in the empty shipping lane(honshu-convoy college(luzon straits)- southwest to parcel islands/ east of hainan, east of indochina south to singapore) that carried the bulk of tanker traffic until that started running all convoys along the indochina/china coast up to tsushima straits in late 44.Much as it was, it becomes a bit of a shooting gallery in late 43 and through 44.

[in_vino_vomitus]

No, unfortunately not, nor does it allow ships to be spawned already damaged.


That's interesting. When I first installed OM [incorrectly] I was pretty sure I'd seen that. Encountering a large convoy, for the first time I was pretty sure that I could see the glow of flames from a couple of ships, which were also smoking more than their fellows - I thought at the time it was a nice touch to have the evidence of other U-boats at work. I hasten to add that I'm not doubting what you say, but it did look very much like fire. I didn't get close to the convoy, as I'd messed up the installation and my saved games weren't reloading, and I haven't seen it since.

It's not exactly on a par with the Marie Celeste, but it's definitely got me scratching my head a bit......

[Admiral Halsey]

That's interesting. When I first installed OM [incorrectly] I was pretty sure I'd seen that. Encountering a large convoy, for the first time I was pretty sure that I could see the glow of flames from a couple of ships, which were also smoking more than their fellows - I thought at the time it was a nice touch to have the evidence of other U-boats at work. I hasten to add that I'm not doubting what you say, but it did look very much like fire. I didn't get close to the convoy, as I'd messed up the installation and my saved games weren't reloading, and I haven't seen it since.

It's not exactly on a par with the Marie Celeste, but it's definitely got me scratching my head a bit......

I have seen that before and not just with convoys. I one found a battleship smoking and dead in the water.

[TorpX]

Well, if there is a way to put in ships already damaged, I don't know about it. Ships can be damaged by bad weather, or encounters with enemy ships/aircraft. Maybe that is what you saw?

[Gryffon300]

I have seen that before and not just with convoys. I one found a battleship smoking and dead in the water.

That's mine! Leave it alone! :arrgh!:

Gryff

[in_vino_vomitus]

Strangely enough, I made contact with a convoy yesterday that seemed to have some damaged ships in it and I grabbed some screenshots - but having said that I think I'll post them in a separate thread, since it's way off-topic for this one.....

[drakkhen20]

hey vomitus,
I see your mod list and was wondering why you don't use RSRD mod with TMO ?

[in_vino_vomitus]

I only recently started using it, and I haven't edited my sig yet.