A Bunch of Young Lawyers are Suing Their Law Schools Because They Don't Have Jobs

[vienna]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bunch-young-lawyers-suing-law-195616601.html

Talk about poetic justice...

Sometimes the things you do really come back to bite you: several years ago an attorney who was called the best pro-environmental attorney in the U.S. died in a skiing accident; he skied into a tree. I always wondered if his last thought as he saw the tree getting closer was "I shouldn't have saved this tree"...

[GoldenRivet]

On the one hand i think they are being winy sissy boys. Its not the school's fault that they are unemployed. The only way they have a case is if they were guaranteed positions with firms in writing and now have none. or perhaps if the school WAS inflating employment data

Its like filing suit against McDonalds because i ordered and ate one of their value meals and I'm still hungry afterwards... its ridiculous.

On the other hand i know of a lot of flight schools that gladly take student money and fill their young little heads with propaganda of imminent airline hiring booms and stories from 23 year old first officers working for FedEx making $100K a year who "Made it to the top" and "so can you".

Perhaps these young lawyers find themselves in the same position that they attended a school which lead them to believe at every turn that being a lawyer was a BMW driving, Super model screwing, rainbow wishes and gumdrop smiles type of life and now they realize it's the complete opposite of that.

[GoldenRivet]

Of course the story broke in Brooklyn.

My repeated advice to those who live there has always been, LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

[Tchocky]

On the other hand i know of a lot of flight schools that gladly take student money and fill their young little heads with propaganda of imminent airline hiring booms and stories from 23 year old first officers working for FedEx making $100K a year who "Made it to the top" and "so can you".

Very similar thing happening in ATC, lots of private outfits offering radar endorsements etc, then dumping gullible students out in a job market they're not prepared for.

[Betonov]

same here, a lot of private schools oopened up in the last years, offering students a ''guaranted employement in economic and administrative fields'' after graduation. The traditional universities, which carry more weight at employers than theese private schools ''produce'' 50 graduates in social fields per 10 workplaces.
But hey, that's how a modern company is supposed to work: 5 directors, 20 managers, 30 acountants, 50 assistants, 70 secretaries, one engineer and 5 foreign workers

[GoldenRivet]

AOPA: Flight Training Magazine printed an article a couple of years ago about airline pilot pay scales.

I assume the story was meant to provide inspiration to young students to continue their training, however... the problem is that the article provided no facts other than the pay scales.

Yes... the article did state that American Airlines senior pilots can make over $100,000 a year.

No... the article does not mention that the airline has not hired a single new pilot in a decade. (nor had 90% of the other airlines mentioned in the article)

Yes... it did mention that there were a number of employment opportunities for young pilots out there citing these massive airlines as examples.

No... it did not mention that these airlines are not and have not been hiring for some time and that the "employment opportunities" were sub-poverty line entry level positions with fly by night cargo companies based in the booming metropolis of Statan's Anus, Alabama.

information that would be good to know for people who wander blindly into a career field.

I cannot count the number of e mails i received from prospective students who thought they would get a license and head straight to Delta or United who had no understanding of the process.

The school i attended in the late 90's was even guilty of providing tons of propaganda to encourage people to attend the school - of course they are going to do this - but where is the accountability?

If my school had told students that 98% of our pilots were employed within a year of graduation - but failed to mention that those pilots were employed by WalMart, Taco Bell, and McDonalds in entry level positions... should my flight school be accountable for that misleading statement?

i say YES, of course it should be.

[August]

To maintain accreditation here at my school we need to maintain at least a 76% related job placement rate after graduation. We have to report these rates by course annually. No accreditation, no student loans.

Colleges are different in that placement is rarely a standard for accreditation.

[frau kaleun]

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/dawson-crying.gif

http://nintendookie.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/worlds-smallest-violin.jpg

:O:

[GoldenRivet]

@ FK

LMAO

@ AUGUST

76% sounds a lot more realistic

[AVGWarhawk]

No one promised you a rose garden.....

[Betonov]

To maintain accreditation here at my school we need to maintain at least a 76% related job placement rate after graduation. We have to report these rates by course annually. No accreditation, no student loans.


You're a teacher if I recall corectly :hmmm:
What kind a school is it? If it's technology oriented I guess you don't have much trouble keeping above the 76% line

[GoldenRivet]

I'm wondering if Brooklyn Law is one of these private institutions.

are these kids being winy bitches? sure i guess

but I too would be pissed if i found out that my school over inflated their hiring data by almost 25% - especially if it was a deciding factor in choosing a school and i had just dumped $150,000+ into an education.

In the end, its up to each person do decide what to major in.

I have always subscribed to the thought that a college degree and 99 cents will get you a cup of coffee. Unless your one of those starbucks types in which case you will need a degree and $6

[August]

You're a teacher if I recall corectly :hmmm:
What kind a school is it? If it's technology oriented I guess you don't have much trouble keeping above the 76% line

Yeah we cover a lot of common trades. Mechanics, technicians, medical assistants, etc. So far we have not lost accreditation on any course although a couple of us, mine included, scraped bottom a couple times in '08-'09.

[August]

@ AUGUST

76% sounds a lot more realistic

Our problem is we have to compete with schools that don't have to maintain those standards but still qualify for student aid.

[CaptainMattJ.]

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t62/carnage717/Animated%20GIFS/knockknockzd0.gif

I knew this picture had its uses...

[Stealhead]

:har:


Those young lawyers are really screwed all the people that got degrees in cognitive thinking already have the restaurant server and coffee shop barista jobs filled.I wonder if they are really applying for every job requiring a law degree or only the high paying ones that require more experience than they actually have.With all the people suing over something in the US or getting into trouble with the law surely there must be something out there if not apply for jobs that use the skills gained in college/law school.

[GoldenRivet]

Part of the problem is people's unwillingness to relocate.

I would guess a majority of these young lawyers are searching all over the greater NY area for law jobs.

MOVE if the job situation is not satisfactory where you are.

they should have known what they were getting into... of course if the school claimed a percentage of job placement that is terribly exaggerated in order to boost enrollments into an expensive degree program i have to say these new lawyers have a point.

[Stealhead]

Very true in current times being willing to relocate is going to open up the market or at least you are increasing your odds of getting a hit from a possible employer.At the same time you should be a little wary of job placement claims the data on those is always at least a year old even if the data is honest much can change in a year.

I also wonder how many of these lawyers put the feelers out in advance and make contacts while they where in school.

[Platapus]

A co-worker told me that at his University, if a student selected certain majors, the University made them sign a waiver indicating that they accept the fact that there is no guarantee of degree related employment.

Sounds like a good idea. But the School should not have to do this.

When selecting a degree, marketability must be a factor. I know three lawyers and none of them are rich and two of them have always been struggling.

[GoldenRivet]

When selecting a degree, marketability must be a factor. I know three lawyers and none of them are rich and two of them have always been struggling.

Agreed.

i know a few myself. and the problem has not always been this way though.

now days for every wealthy lawyer you see, there are 100 that are dirt poor in a manner of speaking.

why is it like this? because of market saturation.

in short - people saw lawyers making good money and more people wanted to go into that career field. Now there are more lawyers than jobs so you have a lot of lawyers filling more menial legal positions.

[Schöneboom]

I had to laugh when I saw that article today -- I work at a law firm (records clerk). GR hit it on the head, we have a lawyer glut in this country. In fact a lot of firms routinely hire "contract attorneys", which is just a fancy way to say "temp". Well, if those disgruntled students win their lawsuit, that can be the first thing on their resumes!

Regarding professional schools, they're mostly rackets. I used to temp for a big-time culinary academy that had a huge sales, I mean, admissions dept. These guys in the cubicle farm worked on commission, pitching on the phone all day, painting rosy pictures of limitless opportunities to the poor saps who would go deep into debt to become... cooks. Sorry, I meant "chefs".

Screenwriting, Art College, same deal... People need to wise up about what skills are really needed. They might not be glamorous, but neither is being in debt up to your eyeballs.

[Tribesman]

If there is a job which is "guaranteed" from a specific course in education then there will be no shortage of employers willing to pay for the tuition fees(or part of) for that.
If there is a specific course where there is even more of a guarantee(terms and conditions apply) due to a big shortage in the market the future employee will not only pay all tuition it will pay accomodation and an allowance too.

If these students didn't realise that then its their own fault.
Unless of course they went to Bubbles school where all the other students are totally stupid so of course wouldn't be able to get a job, and all the teachers don't know anything about law so they couldn't teach the students to be lawyers anyway:yeah:


So tempting to make a comment about teachers being damn liberals who have no experience of life and repeating that line about how those who can do, those who can't teach...but it wouldn't be nice for poor Sport:woot:

[Esanssi]

I wonder if they're representing themselves... :hmmm:

[August]

I wonder if they're representing themselves... :hmmm:


Then they have fools for clients! :yep:

[MH]

Then they have fools for clients! :yep:


Maybe...or it might be a good publicity for job:haha:

[Herr-Berbunch]

There are plenty of jobs out there for them - teaching gullible people law.

[JSLTIGER]

You know, you guys should really withhold judgment until you're in that position. I am a newly minted attorney in a similar position to these folks in that I am currently unemployed and looking for a position (although I have the "advantage" over them of still being in school for my Masters of Law in Tax).

Although it is arguable, there is a valid case that the school committed fraud by knowingly inflating their employment numbers and implying that the positions which their statistics reflected were in the legal field. I don't think that they're all that crazy for filing this lawsuit based on the info in that article, but I'd need to see everything before actually passing judgement.

The reality of the situation is that the ABA has allowed too many law schools to open because they are cash cows for the institutions that have them, and more and more institutions want them.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I don't think it's just that school, or just that trade - I know of lots of people who've trained to be one thing after being promised, falsely, lots of job availability.

@JLSTIGER - hope you get the job you want :03:

[August]

You know, you guys should really withhold judgment until you're in that position. I am a newly minted attorney in a similar position to these folks in that I am currently unemployed and looking for a position (although I have the "advantage" over them of still being in school for my Masters of Law in Tax).

Although it is arguable, there is a valid case that the school committed fraud by knowingly inflating their employment numbers and implying that the positions which their statistics reflected were in the legal field. I don't think that they're all that crazy for filing this lawsuit based on the info in that article, but I'd need to see everything before actually passing judgement.

The reality of the situation is that the ABA has allowed too many law schools to open because they are cash cows for the institutions that have them, and more and more institutions want them.

No I do sympathize with you. Colleges have been taking peoples money for yeas for training with no care of how difficult it will be for people to get jobs in those fields. Maybe this lawsuit will start a trend toward accountability.

If we have to do it for plumbers and electricians and motorcycle mechanics they should be held to the same standards, especially seeing how much they charge. Our grads leave owing up to 14 grand. I'd image that's only a small percentage of a years tuition at a law school.

[MH]

I don't think it's just that school, or just that trade - I know of lots of people who've trained to be one thing after being promised, falsely, lots of job availability.


No its not and one should not take adds seriously ...seems the lawyers had learned their trade well though.:D

[CaptainHaplo]

A number of schools are being sued for the same type of thing. A friend of mine is on the hook for student loans for her brother - he went to culinary school, and hasn't found work yet.

What makes it so bad is that not only is it hurting him financially - its now affecting her. Because she has been harmed directly due to the fraudulent employment data presented, she may be due relief - which in this case is simply being removed from liability for the loan. Its something I am helping her explore.

[Penguin]

First, I find an education system which is solely based on money sick. Giving false hope to students to lure them into your school is a result of this. You can't run an education facility like you'd run a factory.

Second: what is with the individuals own decisions? Is it to much for a 20something person to inform oneself about job prospects in the field you work and in the region you want to live? Hell, they spend 150grand for their education, but can't spend a day at the chamber of commerce, local businesses or maybe only in the web to get informations how the reality looks like...

That being said, long-term projection are always hard to make, especially if you ask economic "experts". Then there is alos the infamous hog circle you have to consider.

Sueing someone for your own mistakes is sadly a common sport. Hell, I could be rich by now if I had sued the shop in the US were I accidently rammed a clothes hanger into my belly while jumping up to grab a hoodie which was too high for me. :88) Well, I refuse to make money from my own stupidity.

Anyway: the best of luck for you JSL :salute: - my rant is not meant against you, but against the "blame anyone else but myself"-mentality which is too common nowadays and which those law grads from Brooklyn clearly seem to have.

[nikimcbee]

Welcome to the real world!:haha:
On a side note, of coarse they'd sue, they're just using their degree.:know:

[soopaman2]

Can I sue Warren Buffet for being poor?

Now suing big firms over the economic meltdown...Oh wait...

I'm sorry. I expect now that corps are people, they can be treated as such. I can't wait until Texas executes one. Sorry to insult the conservatives, and the job creators.

About time frivolous lawsuits was put to good use.

[GoldenRivet]

I think some folks misunderstand

They are not suing the college because they are unemployed.

They are suing the college because it used falsified data to increase enrollment numbers into a high cost degree program.

Ultimately, this no doubt influenced some of these people to enroll in the degree program as opposed to following some other field of study.

not having a job isnt so much the point...

false advertising is the point.

If you attended a school and majored in nursing because the school advertised 98% job placement, and you spent gobs of money getting your education only to find out that the school had falsified their job placement numbers - and that in reality only 58% of graduates found employment after graduation. would you not be a tad pissed at the falsification?

would these people gather any more sympathy if they had been of some other profession?

what if they had been minorities entering some basic business management major. and the school had said that 98% of their business management majors find jobs after graduation only to later realize that - oops - its actually 20-30% less than that number we advertised.

I dunno... i think they have a case if they can prove the numbers were intentionally altered - I've seen this kind of crap at 3 schools and there needs to be more "truth in advertising" if you ask me.

[the_tyrant]

You know, after thinking about it, employment numbers are a horrible way for potential students to decide on what to major in

after all, the data you see now is from at least 1-2 years ago, add in the 4 years for an undergrad degree, that means that there will be 5 years in between.

A lot can change in 5 years

[Tribesman]

They are suing the college because it used falsified data to increase enrollment numbers into a high cost degree program.

It wasn't falsified though was it, slightly misleading maybe but thats the nature of advertising, for potential lawyers they should have read the small print and footnotes and small print on smallprint on footnotes of small print.
After all taking on a $150k debt isn't something you should do without looking at all the details.
The details specify that the % is only % according to some big deductions on incomplete figures and then some further juggling of numbers, placements are only placements and not job specific, employers are only employers it doesn't specify that people are working at the screen actors guild as lawyers and not as teaboy, it even specifies that the guided salary is only a rough guide with lots of variables and can't be taken as an actual measure.

So that looks like the fraud one is out the window, it also suggest negligent misrepresentation by the school is out the window as its more like negligently taking on a debt as a student without reading the blurb.

there needs to be more "truth in advertising" if you ask me.
advertising is all about telling people what they want to hear.
If they read 88%* and don't read the * and the ## and the *~*%, and somehow think 88% become lawyers within 9 months of graduation with a wage of $160k at Pfizer then they are proving the old line about there being one born every minute.

[Stealhead]

You know, after thinking about it, employment numbers are a horrible way for potential students to decide on what to major in

after all, the data you see now is from at least 1-2 years ago, add in the 4 years for an undergrad degree, that means that there will be 5 years in between.

A lot can change in 5 years

That would be about right the data is about 4 or 5 years old by time it gets published.Another thing I dislike are those Department of Labor stats on different fields they are very misleading because they measure everyone employed in the US in that field it is all averaged the demand for a job might be high and one state and very low in another and the pay is averaged out so it is misleading as well.

[GoldenRivet]

as the saying goes... nobody has the crystal ball.

You have to go and make the best possible decision with the information at hand.

If the information is as accurate and as up to date as possible... thats the best you can do.

if the information has been twisted around to suit the needs of the person selling you the goods... you're being had.

[soopaman2]

This will create a precedance for all the lazy "political science" and "cultural studies" (women, African American American Indian classes) to sue, because they took courses with no real substance to society.

Kinda like lawyers?

Whenever lawyers get involved with anything they are always the winner. Even if they lose, they still get paid. Judges still get paid, so guess who loses?

I feel zero pity, though I do find it amusing to see the potential 1% claw at the real 1%.

Maybe they will off each other, and higher education can mean more than a piece of paper, and a guaranteed job because you had the finances to pay.

[Penguin]

would these people gather any more sympathy if they had been of some other profession?


No


if the information has been twisted around to suit the needs of the person selling you the goods... you're being had.

If you get your informations about a product solely from the seller you're not being had but being stupid.

[soopaman2]

If you get your informations about a product solely from the seller you're not being had but being stupid.

At the same time, should there not be some kind of honesty in advertising?

There used to be, when I was a kid. Now the news itself spews bullcrap.

There is no more honesty, just tell them what they want to hear until you have the money. Then shrug and play stupid afterwards.

Maybe, I am changed on this. Perhaps America itself, from Wall Street, down to people who signed "liars loans" to be held accountable.

That means everyone from the welfare defrauder, to the economy wrecking bankers.

Accountability.

When I was a young man, I hit a guy in his face with a beer pitcher.
He grabbed my soon to be wifes bosom, yet I still went to jail for a few days.

I was held accountable, as I should have been.

I am simply waiting for such justice for everyone else, perhaps this is the start. Academia has been getting away with this crap for years.

Most have raised rates during the recession, even as students are having tough times finding jobs afterwards. The schools do not care. Most of their money comes from guaranteed loans. The schools are paid, it is the student who is saddled with the debt.

Better you than me, now get out from front of my Mazerati, you turd!

We got ours, screw you kid. I hope you like flipping burgers with that law degree.

[MH]

At the same time, should there not be some kind of honesty in advertising?
.

I can agree to that....but as a American who lives in the nest of hardcore capitalism and consumer economy you should know better than that...

Suing for false advertising is OK..why not...on another hand it is stupid to take career decisions based on them.
Finishing some school may not make one a good lawyer so should one be able to sue the establishment for being inadequate too?

OHHH but they promised me job:wah:

[Tribesman]

At the same time, should there not be some kind of honesty in advertising?

There used to be, when I was a kid. Now the news itself spews bullcrap.

Rose tinted glasses.
Advertising is advertising and the news has always had plenty of bullcrap.

When I was a young man, I hit a guy in his face with a beer pitcher.

A rose tinted glass?:03:

[Torplexed]

At the same time, should there not be some kind of honesty in advertising?

There used to be, when I was a kid.

Seriously?



http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/1/4/69414_v2.jpg

When I took advertising in college they said our job was to make the product, "the hero", no matter how odious we thought the product was. That's always been advertising in a nutshell.

[Bubblehead1980]

While I want to have sympathy, that is what they get for selecting a Law School based on the wrong criteria, I barely considered those type of statistics when I selected which school to attend.

[Stealhead]

That does not make any sense you are assuming that they chose the school based on that reason even though it does not say anywhere that they did.More than likely they made their chose based on numerous factors.I find it a little hard to believe that you did not take such statics into consideration who is going to attended a law school that has few alumni practicing law?

What was your determining factor then which school had the highest prestige that you could get into? Which prestige still largely reflects to some extent alumni having good jobs at least some of them.

Every educational institution to some extent whats you to feel as though you will get a job because you attended that is the whole idea of post secondary education in the first place.

I'd be careful about being so smug Bubblehead you are not even finished with law school yet you might have as hard a time finding a job as a lawyer as they are.You may not
file a lawsuit against your school but you still are going to enter a highly competitive and saturated field you are about to enter an ocean loaded with fish.

[Tribesman]

While I want to have sympathy, that is what they get for selecting a Law School based on the wrong criteria, I barely considered those type of statistics when I selected which school to attend.
Yet according to yourself you chose a law school where all the staff don't know anything about law, havn't done anything in the legal business world and are only doing political indocrination of the students who as it happens are all brainless.:hmmm:
So what exactly was your criteria in choosing the school?:rotfl2:

[Stealhead]

That is true I forgot about his previous complaints about how "leftie-pinko-commie" all the professors are.He will probably sue his school for having a leftie-commie agenda.

A more realistic person when taking into consideration the current job market in general would be wise when seeking higher education to have the goal of making themselves as marketable as possible in numerous fields and be willing when young and inexperienced to take lower paying jobs.My mother majored in the Arts but she only held a job as an art teacher for 2 years the rest of her 35 year teaching career she was an English teacher.

[Takeda Shingen]

Breaking silence to offer a word of advice to those of you seeking higher education:

In the wake of the 'For-Profit' (a strange term, but the accepted one) explosion, you need to look at your schools before deciding on moving forward. In that vein the single most important question, and one that has not been touched upon at all in this thread, is not employment statistics for graduates but rather accreditation. That is, not that the school is accredited (most of them will be), but the type of accreditation. Generally, there are two types--national and regional.

Essentially, Regional Accreditation indicates that the institution is a traditional 'Non-profit' (also a strange, yet accepted term) academically-oriented school. There are six Regional Accredidation organizations that such a school will be accredited by:

Middle State Association of Colleges and Schools (I am employed by a university accredited by Middle States)
New England Association of Schools and Colleges
North Central Association of Colleges and Schools
Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges
Southern Association of Colleges and Schools
Western Association of Schools and Colleges

National Accreditation is granted by a variety of agencies that were designed to oversee the content of varying types of institutions such as trade schools that were mentioned earlier in the thread. If the name of the accrediting organization is different than the six I mentioned above, the school is nationally accredited. National Accreditation is a legitimate accreditation, albeit considered less prestigious as it is linked to non-academic institutions. While those institutions are legitimate, it should be noted that many 'fly-by-night' schools typically use National Accreditation as well, as the requirements are a bit lighter.

Whatever school you choose, you need to do homework. You can make your job easier by looking at the type of accreditation. If you are going for an academic degree (medicine, law, education, history, music, art, literature, political science, biology, physics, etc) you want a school that is Regionally Accredited. If you see a college offering degrees in those areas that is Nationally Accredited, that is likely a less-than-reputable institution, and a good school to avoid.

[Sailor Steve]

Seriously?
"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on television."
:rotfl2:

[nikimcbee]

Seriously?



http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/1/4/69414_v2.jpg

When I took advertising in college they said our job was to make the product, "the hero", no matter how odious we thought the product was. That's always been advertising in a nutshell.


Scientific evidence!?! Well it must be true!:hmmm::haha:

When I took advertising in college they said our job was to make the product, "the hero", no matter how odious we thought the product was. That's always been advertising in a nutshell

Are you talking about the cigs or the lawyers?

[Schöneboom]

This WSJ article goes into more depth about the law school/job market issue:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html

To be fair to Brooklyn Law School, the one being sued, it cannot be considered a "diploma mill" by any means. Second-tier, yes, compared to the heavy hitters (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et al.). But it isn't enough to be an average student, not from that school, not in today's market. And only a few can be at the top. Brutally Darwinian, eh? (Reminds me of my Hollywood years.)

Looking at what contract attorneys earn in their cubicles while digging out of debt, I suspect many would've better off as electricians, plumbers, or nurses. Unless of course they really "love" the legal profession. I've heard some people do.

[Tribesman]

Breaking silence to offer a word of advice to those of you seeking higher education:

You can't do that, you don't do advertising for Brooklyn law school so can't say anything on the topic:03:

[Stealhead]

This WSJ article goes into more depth about the law school/job market issue:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html

To be fair to Brooklyn Law School, the one being sued, it cannot be considered a "diploma mill" by any means. Second-tier, yes, compared to the heavy hitters (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et al.). But it isn't enough to be an average student, not from that school, not in today's market. And only a few can be at the top. Brutally Darwinian, eh? (Reminds me of my Hollywood years.)

Looking at what contract attorneys earn in their cubicles while digging out of debt, I suspect many would've better off as electricians, plumbers, or nurses. Unless of course they really "love" the legal profession. I've heard some people do.


I think is the entire problem many of these law school grads are expecting to get the $160,000.00 a year starting pay that a mere handful are getting when they simply wont and may never get to that pay scale.Times are tightener for any electrician or plumber but they also have the benefit being in a trade that is relatively inexpensive to train in so they wont be paying of debts for 10 years after they get a job at least not for schooling.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

This WSJ article goes into more depth about the law school/job market issue:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html
Very interesting article. Thanks for the link! :up:

This was quite telling comment...He's making less money than at his last job and has thought about moving back to his parents' house. "I didn't think three years out I'd be uninsured, thinking it's a great day when a crackhead brings me $500."

[Takeda Shingen]

You can't do that, you don't do advertising for Brooklyn law school so can't say anything on the topic:03:

Holy crap, you're right. I also did not invent the qwerty keyboard; that was Christopher Latham Sholes in the 1870's. Using it to express myself is, therefore, an invalid form of correspondence when used by an any other individual.

[Hottentot]

Holy crap, you're right. I also did not invent the qwerty keyboard; that was Christopher Latham Sholes in the 1870's. Using it to express myself is, therefore, an invalid form of correspondence when used by an any other individual.

And in case you didn't notice, this topic does not concern music, so you are ignorant and it's just hilarious seeing you trying to say anything about anything else than music. :har:

Not that anyone would be interested in it anyway, because as an academic you must be some kind of world hugging pinko communist. I bet you wouldn't have your degree if you studied a real science, but hey, everything gets called science these days. :roll:

Man I wish I could put you on my ignore list and tell everyone else to do it too, but there is some conspiracy in here that prevents me. That's your fault too, by the way.

[MH]

It's ok....everyone deserves to have his own opinion just as any other body part.
Don't get so touchy now.

[Hottentot]

everyone deserves to have his own opinion

Not Takeda, he is a moderator.

[Tribesman]

that was Christopher Latham Sholes in the 1870's
Not to be confused with Leather Soles the famous cobbler who once had an arguement about music with Oliver Hardy which elicited the famous line...
"you ain't been with Stan so you don't know nothing, we walked the walk on the trail of the lonesome pine and you ain't never even been in Virginia so STFU"

[Takeda Shingen]

Thanks Tribesman and Hottentot. I needed a little levity on the matter and you both provided. It's why I love this community. :salute:

Please accept these complimentary vouchers which entitle each of you to one free asterisk swear. There is no expiry, so think hard about where you want to use them. :woot:

[NeonSamurai]

Just make sure you read the fine print on the vouchers :DL

Anyhow Takeda's points are valid. Make sure you do all the research, before you put down any cash. Also make sure you have a plan for when you graduate and are taking steps to get there before graduation.

I finished an undergrad degree in psychology almost a year ago. It took me about 6 months to find work in the field. Most of the people I know who also graduated are either still unemployed, or not employed in the field. The only reason why I was able to find employment was that I had done the legwork necessary, starting halfway through my degree. I started volunteering at different places, I built relationships with my professors and employers so that I would have top notch references, and a ton of other things.

I recently got early admission to the graduate school of my choice in clinical social work (it's a little Ivy League school, considered by many to be the top in the field in North America). Again it was careful planning and action over many years that got me there. I am very familiar with the field, the degree gives me a great deal of flexibility as far as employment opportunities, and there is always a demand (particularly back in Canada, as there are only a handful of Canadian universities offering the clinical specialization).

There are so many fly by night for profit trade schools out there its not even funny (Be especially suspicious of the ones that advertize like mad). For most of them, the certificate offered isn't even worth the paper it is printed on to employers.

As for the students, I wish them luck if their allegations are true. False advertising is a crime last I looked (though difficult to prove). I don't think universities, colleges, and trade schools should be permitted to publish skewed statistics (even if they cover themselves in the fine print). At the same time though, I don't feel a huge amount of sympathy for them, just as I don't for my fellow classmates... they didn't do the necessary leg work.

[Sailor Steve]

Please accept these complimentary vouchers which entitle each of you to one free asterisk swear. There is no expiry, so think hard about where you want to use them. :woot:
Does that mean the next time I see *sterisk swe*ring I get to put on my best fake German accent and say "Vouchers, please?"

[Bubblehead1980]

That does not make any sense you are assuming that they chose the school based on that reason even though it does not say anywhere that they did.More than likely they made their chose based on numerous factors.I find it a little hard to believe that you did not take such statics into consideration who is going to attended a law school that has few alumni practicing law?

What was your determining factor then which school had the highest prestige that you could get into? Which prestige still largely reflects to some extent alumni having good jobs at least some of them.

Every educational institution to some extent whats you to feel as though you will get a job because you attended that is the whole idea of post secondary education in the first place.

I'd be careful about being so smug Bubblehead you are not even finished with law school yet you might have as hard a time finding a job as a lawyer as they are.You may not
file a lawsuit against your school but you still are going to enter a highly competitive and saturated field you are about to enter an ocean loaded with fish.

I selected the best school I was accepted to, just so happened to be where I wanted to go anyway . I define best as how tough it is to be admitted, namely one's GPA/LSAT in addition to the school's reputation etc Did I look at the post grad employment statistics etc? sure, did I count them as a major factor? absolutely not. I am well aware that having a JD from a great school does not always equate into a great position right out the door.I worked at a law firm for about a year before law school, learned a lot, to say the least.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yet according to yourself you chose a law school where all the staff don't know anything about law, havn't done anything in the legal business world and are only doing political indocrination of the students who as it happens are all brainless.:hmmm:
So what exactly was your criteria in choosing the school?:rotfl2:

Seems that you will write anything in an attempt to discount me, must be personal for you, grow up scooter.Taking my comments about academia in general being left leaning(which is an undeniable fact) and trying to equate them with me saying all my professors, fellow students etc are brainless, well it is just a bit much.

indocrination? :hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

That is true I forgot about his previous complaints about how "leftie-pinko-commie" all the professors are.He will probably sue his school for having a leftie-commie agenda.

A more realistic person when taking into consideration the current job market in general would be wise when seeking higher education to have the goal of making themselves as marketable as possible in numerous fields and be willing when young and inexperienced to take lower paying jobs.My mother majored in the Arts but she only held a job as an art teacher for 2 years the rest of her 35 year teaching career she was an English teacher.


Again, I was not talking about all my professors, just that fact that academia is dominated by left wingers and many use their positions to spread that failed ideology.Not all, but many and yes I have had some professors who are commies, both in law school and undergrad.

[krashkart]

Again, I was not talking about all my professors, just that fact that academia is dominated by left wingers and many use their positions to spread that failed ideology.Not all, but many and yes I have had some professors who are commies, both in law school and undergrad.

Do you have documented proof of their involvement with Communist parties? It would shatter our society as a whole. :o

God forbid. :shifty:

[nikimcbee]

Do you have documented proof of their involvement with Communist parties? It would shatter our society as a whole. :o

God forbid. :shifty:

I had a professor on the first day of class said he was "liberal". He's a great guy and he wasn't foaming at the mouth type. Ironically, he didn't push his ideology.:haha:

[nikimcbee]

@ bubblehead, what kind of law are you looking to get into?

[krashkart]

I had a professor on the first day of class said he was "liberal". He's a great guy and he wasn't foaming at the mouth type. Ironically, he didn't push his ideology.:haha:

Heh. I can remember a couple of instructors who let on about their political leanings, but neither of them ever pushed it on us. Most people I know don't really talk much about where they stand anyway, and even if they did I probably wouldn't notice or care. To each his own, and God help us all this election year -- methinks the outlook is pretty grim right now. :haha:

[Tribesman]

Seems that you will write anything in an attempt to discount me, must be personal for you, grow up scooter.Taking my comments about academia in general being left leaning(which is an undeniable fact) and trying to equate them with me saying all my professors, fellow students etc are brainless, well it is just a bit much.

indocrination?
But bubbles you have been very very specific both about the staff at your school and all the other students at your school. :know:

You must be a complete *****(terms and conditions applied) if you are trying to pass off your specific claims as somehow vauge generalisations.
Don't you remember saying that all your fellow students were brainless drones who were unable to string a sentence together and were completely unable to give an intelligible reply on topics
Yet now amazingly they are at a school which only takes the cream of the crop:doh:

BTW you used the word "fact" again where it doesn't apply:woot:

I think I see the problem here, you make up so much pure bullexcrement that you cannot remember the bull you have written.
You are just like that other wingnut youngster a while ago from the chalkboard of conspiracy who made a pile of silly claims to big himself up, like how he was working three jobs. Remind us again what your occupation "was" as someone in "the business" before you entered school and how that claim unravelled for ya :hmmm:


Again, I was not talking about all my professors
bubbles bubbles bubbles, repeating your lies again in the next post doesn't make them any more true.

[Stealhead]

Again, I was not talking about all my professors, just that fact that academia is dominated by left wingers and many use their positions to spread that failed ideology.Not all, but many and yes I have had some professors who are commies, both in law school and undergrad.


Fair enough but it sure seemed like you where speaking about your current professors not your past ones the language in that Obama impeaching thread seemed to be applying your past and current experience.I am not so sure that you can say that a person is a true communist unless they actually say so from their mouth that they are.In my experience I have only met some Italians in Italy that where actually members of the Italian Communist party and that party is much more local and regional.Perhaps you have had professors that had a very liberal leaning which is all together quite different from a full blown communist.But that seems to be your world view and I would argue that both sides left and right spend a lot of time in various manners to promote their views to the masses so to speak so with that in mind it is not a bad idea to take anything you hear or see with a grain of salt keeping in mind that someone is putting their point of view on it everyone has an agenda.The notion any person a certain degree or for to the left is a pinko-commie is an overstatement I would consider it equally unfair to say that a certain degree right leaning person is a Fascist and some left learners do make this claim both sides do this to scare tactic which is poor behavior and serves only to divide people.

I was not trying to show you ill will about getting a good job though but you did come across as a little smug with your sympathy comment some of those Brooklyn Law school grads may well have also worked with law firms and made connections.Interning is not a guarantee of employment in the future necessarily.

I know one of my young cousins she started working at a law firm as a part time job in high school and got interested in paralegal work she interned and worked part time for a few different firms and it still took her almost 2 years to find employment as a paralegal.Granted a paralegal is not a lawyer but I think that the 1-2 year job search is easily the standard unless you are working in a low skills required job.

[Bubblehead1980]

But bubbles you have been very very specific both about the staff at your school and all the other students at your school. :know:

You must be a complete *****(terms and conditions applied) if you are trying to pass off your specific claims as somehow vauge generalisations.
Don't you remember saying that all your fellow students were brainless drones who were unable to string a sentence together and were completely unable to give an intelligible reply on topics
Yet now amazingly they are at a school which only takes the cream of the crop:doh:

BTW you used the word "fact" again where it doesn't apply:woot:

I think I see the problem here, you make up so much pure bullexcrement that you cannot remember the bull you have written.
You are just like that other wingnut youngster a while ago from the chalkboard of conspiracy who made a pile of silly claims to big himself up, like how he was working three jobs. Remind us again what your occupation "was" as someone in "the business" before you entered school and how that claim unravelled for ya :hmmm:



bubbles bubbles bubbles, repeating your lies again in the next post doesn't make them any more true.

Please, get help.

[Bubblehead1980]

I had a professor on the first day of class said he was "liberal". He's a great guy and he wasn't foaming at the mouth type. Ironically, he didn't push his ideology.:haha:


Not all actively push their agenda, but you can see the slant in their teaching.Then again, there are some(but few) who try to stay neutral.

[Bubblehead1980]

Fair enough but it sure seemed like you where speaking about your current professors not your past ones the language in that Obama impeaching thread seemed to be applying your past and current experience.I am not so sure that you can say that a person is a true communist unless they actually say so from their mouth that they are.In my experience I have only met some Italians in Italy that where actually members of the Italian Communist party and that party is much more local and regional.Perhaps you have had professors that had a very liberal leaning which is all together quite different from a full blown communist.But that seems to be your world view and I would argue that both sides left and right spend a lot of time in various manners to promote their views to the masses so to speak so with that in mind it is not a bad idea to take anything you hear or see with a grain of salt keeping in mind that someone is putting their point of view on it everyone has an agenda.The notion any person a certain degree or for to the left is a pinko-commie is an overstatement I would consider it equally unfair to say that a certain degree right leaning person is a Fascist and some left learners do make this claim both sides do this to scare tactic which is poor behavior and serves only to divide people.

I was not trying to show you ill will about getting a good job though but you did come across as a little smug with your sympathy comment some of those Brooklyn Law school grads may well have also worked with law firms and made connections.Interning is not a guarantee of employment in the future necessarily.

I know one of my young cousins she started working at a law firm as a part time job in high school and got interested in paralegal work she interned and worked part time for a few different firms and it still took her almost 2 years to find employment as a paralegal.Granted a paralegal is not a lawyer but I think that the 1-2 year job search is easily the standard unless you are working in a low skills required job.


Well smug or not, I have no sympathy because it sounds like people blaming an institution for their employment woes in lieu of taking personal responsibility.Like I said, I do not expect a top notch job upon graduation despite having worked at or where I obtained my JD and employment statistics played a negligible role in my selection.

Well I had one Professor in undergrad admit he is a communist, most will not but they sound like commies.I despise left wing "thinking", it is a cancer on our society as is the far right religious nuts.People have the right to their beliefs, even though they are incorrect and have been proven so time and time again, but I have the right to point out how wrong they are and to mock, ridicule etc if I so choose.

[nikimcbee]

@ bubblehead, what kind of law are you looking to get into?

:D:hmmm:

[August]

I have the right to point out how wrong they are and to mock, ridicule etc if I so choose.

Yeah that's just what the world needs, a smart mouth lawyer who makes enemies of people he hasn't even met.

[vienna]

Yeah that's just what the world needs, a smart mouth lawyer who makes enemies of people he hasn't even met.


He's got a future in foreign diplomacy, perhaps?... :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

"Well I had one Professor in undergrad admit he is a communist, most will not but they sound like commies.I despise left wing "thinking", it is a cancer on our society as is the far right religious nuts.People have the right to their beliefs, even though they are incorrect and have been proven so time and time again, but I have the right to point out how wrong they are and to mock, ridicule etc if I so choose."

What did you actually interrogate your professor?

I can see it now "Professor
Pinkoburg are you a leftie-pinko-commie? "Why yes Bubblehead(replace with actual name) I am a card carrying member of the Communist Party and if you do not accept my beliefs and fall in line I will report you to the Pinko Brigade!"

What makes little sense about your entire pinko leftie thing is that you have this notion that there are many people that are communists but will not admit that they are but you can believe what you want as you said nice way of showing your true colors with that mock and ridicule statement.

More than likely you just happen to encounter people of opposing political views that have your same crass attitude; I have the right to mock and ridicule people that I disagree with,I despise certain types of people nice manner of thinking gonna get you real far.

So what would you do if you where in Italy and got invited to eat with a group of communist farmers? I once got invited to a meal with some Italian farmers that where all communists it was actually one of the best meals I have ever eaten and not a word of the virtues of failures of any form of government came up at all if had your attitude I'd have missed out on one of the most enjoyable experiences in my life and not one word was mentioned about politics I know this for certain I never heard comunista uttered I did not need a translation into English to know that they had no desire to mention politics.They actually kept talking about the TV show Lassie(they had a German Sheppard named Lassie a male dog though) and about how the US fought the Germans in the region during WWII and how they where grateful that the Americans came.

[Platapus]

Having gone up through doctoral studies, it has been my experience that the vast majority of my instructors have been moderates. I guess if someone has a far right bias, a moderate might look like a liberal.

One of my instructors described this as political parallax - where from an extremist viewpoint (right or left) most everyone seems to be the opposite.

Extremist left perceive everyone else as conservative and extremist right perceive everyone else as liberal. That's the good thing about being a moderate - everyone else is an extremist. :D

I have been to both "liberal" and "conservative" schools and most of my instructors have been moderates. The only "agenda" I saw being pushed was trying to understand both sides.

[Stealhead]

It is relative from region to region a politician running as Conservative in France would be far more liberal than the majority of american liberal politicians. The Communist Italians that I ate with for example they are much more moderate and most land owners are not communist by they employ the communists for example these farmers where raising sheep for the Italian land owner he was very much a capitalist but he employed the workers and they greatly respected him he sat at the head of the largest table and was my translator.

The problem with some folks who tend to be outside moderate leanings is that they tend to see the world in black and white us vs. them and you cant do that.If the Italian capitalist land owner viewed "lefties" with Bubbleheads
eyes he would be without any employees and his business would be going no where fast.

I can recall once in a high school government class one of the local county commissioners who had been a Democrat fro many years suddenly changed his party to Republican the timing was very suspicious because the then State Representative for our region had announced that he was not going to run next term this man was a Republican so it seemed very evident that Mr. County Commissioner was eyeing that slot and felt that hed have a better chance getting the seat as a Rep. One of my classmates asked him this question and I have never seen someone stumble so badly in reaction to an unexpected question he pretty much rambled for 5 minutes never really giving a reason why he had changed parties after that day in school I never really had much faith in politicians of any stripe much less the hard core right and left ones.

[iambecomelife]

I got myself in trouble the last time I discussed politics, so I'll pass on the "Commie" thing. :rotfl2:

I will say that it's a slaughter here in the United States. I went to one of the best law schools in the East and classmates much smarter than I am were sending out hundreds of resumes - still getting "dinged". And this was in 2007-2008, at the beginning of the downturn. After October 2008 it became a nightmare - one of my profs who's been a lawyer since the early 1970's said she's literally never seen anything like this.

I managed to get a fairly well paying position at a firm (I'll be starting on Monday) but I consider myself fortunate. Lots of grads my age are temping for $30,000 a year, doing volunteer work, & "seeing the world" if they have rich parents. Or "marrying up" to rich yuppie men (despite my good looks, I don't seem to have that option.) :hmmm:

I myself had to work part time from home for months, and put off my bar review for one year (took it & passed in July 2011). In a better job market I would have been a summer intern at a firm starting in my 1L year.

I have sympathy for my classmates who bought into the big law dream and got burned. Nevertheless, I blame myself for not doing my homework before going to law school. Also, I'm not too sure that sueing the law schools is the right way to go about redressing whatever wrongs may have been committed. Ironic coming from me, I know. :DL

[Stealhead]

I would say in the current times if you have a job that allows you to have enough money to make ends meet even if you are perhaps underemployed and making a bit less than you could possibly earn then you are lucky.If you are in a really good job fully employing your education and experience then you are very lucky.

I think the people that are getting hit the hardest in the US are the ones that where living outside their means(which you could get away with until a few years back).Of course that is partly their fault but much can be blame can also be laid at the feet of finical institutions for allowing so many to do this in the first place.

The other type that is really getting hit are the people that where mid to late career only to get laid off they suffer because many companies do not want to hire very many people at that experience level when they can hire two or three new bloods for the same price so the experienced ones end up having to take a lower paying job many times.The ones that are considered displaced workers have it a little easier because they are much more likely to get unemployment extensions and the law(at least here in FL) allows them to turn down a job that is certain percentage lower than their old salary if they want.I know a few guys in this boat one took a $10.00 an hour job his previous company that closed down he was making $20.00 an hour.The other man fared better he was making $17.00 an hour and nabbed a job earning $14.00 to start and now he makes the same as he did before.

@iambecomelife So did you graduate law school in 2007-2008 or later it is not entirely clear if your classmates where in the same class or where senior to you.

[iambecomelife]

I would say in the current times if you have a job that allows you to have enough money to make ends meet even if you are perhaps underemployed and making a bit less than you could possibly earn then you are lucky.If you are in a really good job fully employing your education and experience then you are very lucky.

I think the people that are getting hit the hardest in the US are the ones that where living outside their means(which you could get away with until a few years back).Of course that is partly their fault but much can be blame can also be laid at the feet of finical institutions for allowing so many to do this in the first place.

The other type that is really getting hit are the people that where mid to late career only to get laid off they suffer because many companies do not want to hire very many people at that experience level when they can hire two or three new bloods for the same price so the experienced ones end up having to take a lower paying job many times.The ones that are considered displaced workers have it a little easier because they are much more likely to get unemployment extensions and the law(at least here in FL) allows them to turn down a job that is certain percentage lower than their old salary if they want.I know a few guys in this boat one took a $10.00 an hour job his previous company that closed down he was making $20.00 an hour.The other man fared better he was making $17.00 an hour and nabbed a job earning $14.00 to start and now he makes the same as he did before.

@iambecomelife So did you graduate law school in 2007-2008 or later it is not entirely clear if your classmates where in the same class or where senior to you.

I graduated in 2010. What I meant was my classmates in 1L year (2007-2008) were getting rejected for the typical summer jobs that 1Ls get. In other words, we law students were the first to suffer from the weakening market, as the collapse in 2008 unfolded. Now things are even worse, with experienced lawyers getting hit. I know a woman whose son, a seasoned attorney, just went from making six figures to being laid off by his firm. At another firm I know of, the New York office took a huge pay cut to halt layoffs - at the end of the year, they went back on their word & dozens of associates got sacked anyway.

Where I live, the few remaining jobs tend to deal with things like foreclosure proceedings - in other words, trying to clear up the very financial mess that ruined the legal market in the first place. Once that's straightened out, many people's legal temp jobs will probably end.

[Stealhead]

My aunt works as a paralegal at a Ft.Lauderdale law firm they have some big clients like Caterpillar and even her firm has slowed down alot she has worked there for 30 years and for much of that time worked with usually the same lawyers that she knew well and worked well with.Now she and others have to take any jobs that come along.

She has been lucky because she has a lot of experience and has worked on many of the major cases the firm has had over the years others have not been as lucky.

Of course when the economy slows so does the desire for one person to sue the cost of the case is going to be a factor much more now for any company before it thinks of taking legal action.