So Sweden sunk (?) an american submarine

[Catfish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwGjzxpBLL4&feature=related


Be sure to watch it from the beginning, just to see how things developed. Text is in german, but the original is english/swedish/russian.

Very interesting about the Reagan "era" and what was done to damage swedish prime minister Olof Palme's reputation - before he was killed.

Palme did all for a peaceful international approach of the superpowers, but the US did not like that and sought the confrontation with Russia, from Teller and Rickover to Reagan, they were on the war path. Any negotiation was considered as treachery. It also becomes obvious that the russian threat was a joke, militarily spoken.

Regarding the later part of the film - it suggests the first russian Diesel sub was guided to the shore and ran aground at Sweden's coast in the baltic, which maybe or not have been a CIA operation. It certainly looks like sabotage and a spy. Anyway a russian sub ran aground in swedish waters.

Next the whole world laughed at Sweden and Palme, who obviously was not able to keep its own territoral waters clean of russian subs, but this traitor wanted to talk and negotiate with the Soviets.

After this beaching there were now hundreds of sightings, every whale and seal was a sighted "russian" sub, but indeed US and british subs were in the area to test the swedish installations.
The joke is american and british submarines suddenly did all to be seen, so people would think Sweden could not defend its own waters with lots of "russian" subs violating the swedish territorial waters - only they were US subs, which the swedish people who observed that did not know, and suspect. So Olof Palme would be further incriminated, also by his own military for being such a "loser".

And then the Swedish Navy indeed tracked and depth charged a submarine, which sunk damaged and hit the bottom. Sounds of working personell and even voices (english) were recorded, and soon after a yellow-green blot appeared at the surface, an emergency signal. Colour and composition later made clear it was an US sub, damaged by the swedish depth charge, but they did not know that then. Anyway some order from "high above" forbade the use of further depth charges and they just waited, and listened.

Next days another sub was intercepted and followed, straight to the site of the depth charging. When the fleet was almost over the target and wanted to release the charges, there again was a sudden order not to release the charges, or "only one". The second sub was then listened to, until it tried to sneak away, thoroughly recorded by hydrophones and trackers, and no other action was taken.

After this Olof Palme was accused to have given the order "not to attack a russian submarine" and became further isolated politically. It did not matter if he indeed gave the order, or the swedish secret service, or NATO. Palme was accused and finished. When his power had faded and nobody thought of him anymore, he was killed. It remains open whether it was own right-wing hawks inside the military or the national secret service, or some such service from abroad.
Perfectly Sun Tzu: Denigrate, belittle and isolate a man thoroughly, before you kill him. Who needs enemies when you have such friends ..


Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, or even worse.

[CCIP]

Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, being worse.

In fairness, a single documentary claiming something isn't necessarily solid grounding. Not to say it's necessarily false or anything, but it still seems rather out there.

[August]

Interesting that those former "wild unfounded conspiracy theories" slowly prove to be something else than that, or even worse.

I saw nothing on the video or in your post that would change that definition. I do see some wishful thinking however.

[Catfish]

Which text exactly brought you to the conclusion that this is an unfounded theory ? :cool:

[August]

Which text exactly brought you to the conclusion that this is an unfounded theory ? :cool:


That he was assassinated by the CIA? How about this?

Denigrate, belittle and isolate a man thoroughly, before you kill him. Who needs enemies when you have such friends ..

Obviously you aren't talking about the KGB or the South Africans...

[Catfish]

Yes, you are right - not by the KGB or the South Africans.
It is not directly said in the film as well, and "Honi soit qui mal y pense", but:

The violation of swedish territorial waters by US and british subs, to make it look like russian intruders and influence the public opinion against prime minister Mr. Palme, the psychological warfare of the US to influence and shut up a befriended nation like Sweden, having the boldness to talk (!) with the Russians, could (!) suggest that. And it leaves a bad taste, diplomatically spoken.

This "russian" violation of swedish waters was stage-managed alright by the US, Britain or both, this is obvious. And as usual it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening *.
The swedish military and politics of the time did not even realize how it was deceived.

Regarding the killing:
I did not say it was the CIA. There is however a very low chance it was the KGB ? Or South Africa ? Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.
It may well be Palme was killed by his own military, or by his own secret service consisting of right wing hawks having sympathy for, and connections with, the CIA.
The film (!) suggests that.

*It also maybe that he was just killed by a maniac, or born murderer, who knows. But it pays to think about who has the most gain of such action happening.

I don't accuse anyone, back then it was the cold war, and governments inofficially still murder enemies abroad.

[Catfish]

B.t.w. it is not this documentation alone, along with reconstructions there are a lot of german, danish and norvegian naval logbooks and very explicite opinions on that matter.
This action led to a political shift and a change of public opinion in Sweden against the Soviet Union, exactly as planned.
e.g.
"The secret war against sweden - us and british submarine deception in the 1980ies" from Tulander, also speaking in the vid:
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-ETroO0zEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

Page 4 from the middle, why Palme may have been a target - page 13 how the deception influenced and changed the perception of Sweden towards the russian "aggression".

[Jimbuna]

Pretty inconclusive IMHO but it would have helped greatly if I understood the language.

[Osmium Steele]

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

[Jimbuna]

So, which US sub was it? The only nuc boats lost were Thresher and Scorpion in the 60s. Both locations now well documented?

Keep in mind, I served in Sublant in the 80s. I had friends/classmates in every atlantic fleet submarine squadron. If a nuc boat went missing, I'd have heard. There is just no way to keep that kind of thing secret.
All diesel boats in commission at that time are accounted for as well.

What became of it? Is it still there with a bunch of dead american sailors?

Was a secret rescue operation mounted which slipped it out from under the nose of the swedish navy?

Also, it is very difficult to mistake a US sub of that era with a soviet boat. A simple description of what was seen would have laid that to rest. All US designs of the time had fairwater planes, and only the soviet Yankees and Deltas had them, neither of which would have been seen anywhere near the Swedish coast.

About the only demonstrable fact stated in the entire piece was that a Soviet deisel boat ran aground in the territorial waters of Sweden. The rest is hearsay, and fantasy.

Agreed :yep:

[August]

Two countries you introduced, not me. You could have proposed Switzerland as well.

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

[Catfish]

I didn't just pick those countries out of a hat Catfish. Palme was known for his harsh criticism of Apartheid and Soviet imperialist ambitions. I'd say there's more than a "very low chance" it was one of them.

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-ETroO0zEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

[August]

Yes but you see, he was equally harsh against the aggressiveness of US politics of the time, and pi**ed off the US with his "worldwide peace negotiations".
You are right they all had an axe to grind with Palmes, but the biggest had the US. Do me the favor and read page 4 -13.
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-ETroO0zEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

I gave it a quick read. Apparently it makes a fair number of allegations but like usual with books of this sort it's short on provable facts.

Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

[Catfish]

...
Look the only people I know of who will assassinate someone after the damage is done is the Russians (see Alexander Litvinenko). If the CIA was in the habit of such things don't you think Julien Assange or Hugo Chavez or Jane Fonda, or any number of peaceniks and troublemakers would not have been terminated by now? Palme's impact as an irritant was eliminated when he left office. It would not make sense to remove a threat that has already been neutralized.

Well my point is the CIA did and does it like the Mossad and surely the Russians. Now they are doing it with drones and more collateral damage. Remember how much (for the US) inconvenient people died in Middle and South America, in those airplane crashes in the 1970ies amd 80ies ?
This became so bad that every plane crash was joked about in a fashion like "who now was in the plane the CIA wanted to get rid off ?".

And then i'm not sure how long Chavez is going to make it ;)


Edit: ah i see your point like "why do it when the danger is removed" - ok. I think it's bad enough deceiving a "befriended" nation that way, to remove inconvenient politicians - this alone is the handwriting of the CIA for sure. And some guys there have been proven to be a bit resentful ?

But then you are right it is only an assumption, but imho a founded one.

[heartc]

But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August.

/sarc

[Catfish]

No it was a hologram and the towers were blown up, everyone knows that :O:

[August]

ok. I think it's bad enough deceiving a "befriended" nation that way, to remove inconvenient politicians - this alone is the handwriting of the CIA for sure.

For sure? :dead: No, I think it's anything but sure except to those who want it to be true. Oh and for the record I don't believe in any of it and that includes your reference to some unspecified plane crashes a half a century ago.

But the CIA also flew the jets into the towers, August.

Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache! :up: :DL

[heartc]

Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache! :up: :DL

I see there's hope yet for America. Maybe we'll even let you join the EU one day. ;)

[Karle94]

For sure? :dead: No, I think it's anything but sure except to those who want it to be true. Oh and for the record I don't believe in any of it and that includes your reference to some unspecified plane crashes a half a century ago.



Exactly. And FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor and the moon landings were faked. In fact we didn't actually win WW2 or WW1 and the spirit of the Kaiser still exists in the body of Angela Merkel. You can tell by the mustache! :up: :DL

Also, Lincoln and Kennedy were both assasinated by the US government.

[Dread Knot]

Also, Lincoln and Kennedy were both assasinated by the US government.

And every major American technological innovation of the past 65 years we owe to the Roswell Saucer Crash. :up:

[heartc]

And every major American technological innovation of the past 65 years we owe to the Roswell Saucer Crash. :up:

...which was secret Nazi tech from their base on the dark side of the moon. :salute:

[Catfish]

And every major American technological innovation of the past 65 years we owe to the Roswell Saucer Crash. :up:

Nope :O:

http://alexaxt.blogspot.com/2011/12/frappierende-ahnlichkeit.html

[heartc]

See? :rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

However :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

And every major American technological innovation of the past 65 years we owe to the Roswell Saucer Crash. :up:

...which was secret Nazi tech from their base on the dark side of the moon. :salute:
The truth is more disturbing:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6968/spacelaunchsystem.png

[Catfish]

:hmmm:
No, "operation paperclip" is a conspiracy theory, everyone knows that.

Ok i give up, you guys are terrific ;):rock:

[Marcantilan]

Going back to the topic, a couple of years ago some researchers found near Gotland a wreck from a sunken boat, probably from the Cold War (see here: http://www.thelocal.se/32386/20110303/ )

The authorities rejected to investigate further:

Ola Oskarsson, CEO at marine survey company Marin Mätteknik (MMT), which located the wreck, is also surprised by the Armed Forces' lack of interest in the sunken submarine.

"I don***8217;t understand what the Armed Forces is thinking, but maybe they know more than they want to admit to. But it's not possible to draw an conclusions from what's seen on the outer service," he told the TT news agency.

Why? (conspiracy mode on: They know is NOT a Soviet Boat? conspiracy mode off now)

Rgds,

[Randomizer]

Going back to the topic, a couple of years ago some researchers found near Gotland a wreck from a sunken boat, probably from the Cold War (see here: http://www.thelocal.se/32386/20110303/ )

The authorities rejected to investigate further:

Ola Oskarsson, CEO at marine survey company Marin Mätteknik (MMT), which located the wreck, is also surprised by the Armed Forces' lack of interest in the sunken submarine.

"I don’t understand what the Armed Forces is thinking, but maybe they know more than they want to admit to. But it's not possible to draw an conclusions from what's seen on the outer service," he told the TT news agency.

Why? (conspiracy mode on: They now is NOT a Soviet Boat? conspiracy mode off now)

Rgds,
To the retired "Commander and Chief": Pictures or it's not there.

It may very well be a Soviet sub but having admitted that he has previously errored by almost 50% in aging a Great War era wreck, one can be assuredly skeptical with his contention that this is a Cold War wreck. It could easily also be from the 30's or WW2.

The fact that he is CEO of the marine salvage firm most likely to get a nice fat contract should the Swedish government decide to investigate further is, I am sure, entirely coincidental...

Some shipwrecks in the Baltic seem to last remarkably intact, one can do a search for the General von Stueban or Wilhelm Gustloff and see how well these wrecks survived until the Soviet's blew up the latter to prevent detailed examination by third parties. I recall reading somewhere that the Baltic is oxygen poor so wrecks corrode at a slower rate than in some other waters but that may be anecdotal or wrong.

Lastly, the former Commander in Chief might want to consider physics before stating that a depth charge will result in no externally visible damage. A submarine is a pressure vessel, application of a major shock wave to the exterior can result in a significant breach of the hull, countless submarine wrecks demonstrate this; it's how depth charges work. He should know better.

[TLAM Strike]

Conspiracy mode on: They now is NOT a Soviet Boat? conspiracy mode off now

Well who else operated subs in the Baltic in the cold war...

Denmark
Sweden
USSR
West Germany
Poland
USA (sometimes)
UK (Sometimes)
Norway?
Libya had one up there once but its accounted for.

[Osmium Steele]

A submarine is a pressure vessel, application of a major shock wave to the exterior can result in a significant breach of the hull, countless submarine wrecks demonstrate this; it's how depth charges work. He should know better.

While this is certainly true, it is not as much so for cold war era boats.

The rounded/teardrop shape of the modern hull, not to mention the advances in metallurgy and hull thickness, disperses a great deal of any shockwave. The majority of the damage is done to the weak points internally. Pipe hangers, fittings, mountings, etc. causing loss of power, steerageway, depth control and flooding. It is just too weight intensive to make everything shock resistant enough to render such measures obsolete. Might as well sail a brick.

[Randomizer]

For nuc boats I generally agree but he specifically discusses the wreck as being double-hulled, which if Cold War and Soviet would likely be one of the Quebec through Tango Type XXI derivative designs. The ocean floor is littered with double-hulled submarines split open by depth charges.
"A submarine has two surfaces, one external and one inner one. A depth charge wouldn’t affect the external layer, which means you wouldn’t be able to see the damage from outside," he said.
Somewhere (try Trinity and Beyond: The Atom Bomb Movie) there's interior footage of a Fleet Boat imploding several miles from the hypocentre of Test Baker at Bikini in 1946. While this might be extreme, the statement in the article implies that shock alone cannot breach a pressure hull so as to produce external damage. My point was that this statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Besides, to date nobody has admitted to killing a tear-dropped shaped single-hulled submarine with depth charges and modern ASW weapons tend to use a more direct application of explosive force.

[Fincuan]

Going back to the topic, a couple of years ago some researchers found near Gotland a wreck from a sunken boat, probably from the Cold War (see here: http://www.thelocal.se/32386/20110303/ )

The authorities rejected to investigate further:

...

Why? (conspiracy mode on: They know is NOT a Soviet Boat? conspiracy mode off now)

It's a Soviet Whiskey-class boat that foundered while being towed to be scrapped, time being late 80s to early 90s.

http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/Aktuellt/Nyhetsarkiv/Centrala-nyheter/20635/Sjunken-ubat-hittad-soder-om-Gotland/

[Marcantilan]

Well, even I don´t understood a single letter from your link, I think that mistery is solved.

[Randomizer]

It's a Soviet Whiskey-class boat that foundered while being towed to be scrapped, time being late 80s to early 90s.

http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/Aktuellt/Nyhetsarkiv/Centrala-nyheter/20635/Sjunken-ubat-hittad-soder-om-Gotland/
Thanks. That explains the lack of damage and sinks the conspiracy theory all at once.

[Catfish]

It is an entirely different submarine and location.

[Marcantilan]

It is an entirely different submarine and location.

Could you explain further?

Regards!