a playable type II,Possible? [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

View Full Version : a playable type II,Possible?

lesec74

11-18-11, 08:42 AM

hello,

With the progress of modders (thanksfor your job for the community:salute:), is it possible to expect one day a type II playable?
thanks for answers.

Sailor Steve

11-18-11, 11:22 AM

One day, probably yes. Unfortunately that day most likely won't be any time this year, or next.

jdkbph

11-18-11, 01:24 PM

Madox58

11-18-11, 04:06 PM

The biggest hindrence is the GR2 file work needed.
There are 2 people able to work them as needed.

1 has to finish his Tool,
the other is involved in Beta Testing for a different Game due out in December.
:D

May the Force be with you!
:03:

Sailor Steve

11-18-11, 06:41 PM

Just curious Steve... but why do you say that? Not that I think you're wrong... I just don't know what the issues are.

Is it technical? Something that has yet to be decoded? Are we waiting for a tool or something from the devs to make it possible? Is it time and effort?
Privateer talked about the technical side. The problem I see is that making the complete interior, rigging it up with the complete walk-through and adding all the animations is such a job that the original devs only had time to make the Type VIIs. Also, if and when it does come to pass the biggest demand will almost certainly be for the Type IX first.

Don't get me wrong. The lack of the Type II is the main thing keeping me playing SH3 and SH4, and if this should happen sooner I will be extremely happy. Or maybe I'm just a pessimist at heart.

Madox58

11-18-11, 06:49 PM

Tomi has a great Type II interior already.
That can be adapted quite easily once a good GR2 Tool is ready.
The animations are a different story.
Although many could be re-used as a stand in type deal at first.
I'd guess sometime next year will see the first Modder added playable Unit.
Since the Type II is mostly in the Game now?
I'd say it has the better chance of being the first.
Unless Ref's Type IX get's a leg up.
:03:

RealAir

11-18-11, 09:05 PM

It'd be particularly nice to get the old dugout canoe back, I kind of miss them!

TheBeast

11-18-11, 09:12 PM

If we are able to export models from a GR2, what is preventing importing a model back into a GR2.

For instance, Import the Type-IX body, Hull, Deck, Detali into a existing Type-VII GR2 Model.
Use all the same interiors and waypoints.
Would have to adjust Torpedo Door Locations fore/aft.
Edit Bunker Torpedo Load out Menu screen to support 2 aft Tubes and all the extra Torpedo Storage to support Type-IX.
Edit Sub Torpedo Load out Menu screen for Type-IX Extra Storage Support.
Would maybe have to adjust Conning Tower Room Exterior Hatch to match Type-IX exterior Hatch.

For the Type-II:
Maybe we can just use the existing Conning Tower and Control Room and not load any of the other Rooms.
Not sure if they will fit inside the Type-II though.

Madox58

11-18-11, 09:18 PM

Importing back into a GR2 is much harder then grabbing from the file.
There are pointers to nearly everything in the GR2 file.
IF you do not change the size of the meshes?
It's easy and nothing changes much that can not be worked with.
IF you want things changed in a major way?
A whole world of hurt drops on your head!
Screw up one single bit? (And I mean a single bit out of a byte)
It's Game over!!

TheDarkWraith

11-18-11, 10:18 PM

Once I think I have a majority of the pointers figured out I discover more :shifty: That's not the worst of it. I tried just adding a couple of bytes to the file at random locations to see if I had adjusted all the 'known' pointers correctly....I have yet to do this successfully :nope:
Add pointers to pointers and this quickly becomes a nightmare. I just can't get an algorithm that works 100% of the time on every file :dead:

Madox58

11-18-11, 10:38 PM

That would be the World of Hurt I mentioned.
:haha:
:salute:

Royale-Adio

11-18-11, 11:15 PM

Then maybe we should buy a Granny3d licence entitled to Subsim Community exclusively, with only Neil having the the source code for the tool.

Next step is to gather 12,000$! :haha:

lesec74

05-30-12, 10:11 AM

hello,

any news about the type II ? With the beautiful work of the modders, one day perhaps?:06:

many thanks for modders job:salute:

Sartoris

05-30-12, 11:57 AM

Then maybe we should buy a Granny3d licence entitled to Subsim Community exclusively, with only Neil having the the source code for the tool.

Next step is to gather 12,000$! :haha:

Is this really so unrealistic? What if we tried running a donation event? I would gladly give up to $50, since in the end I would be getting an expansion of a sorts for a great game. The only thing is, are there enough members to support this? I understand that the forum has thousands of members, but how many of them would be willing to support this idea...:06:

Madox58

05-30-12, 12:02 PM

RAD Games will not sell you the SDK.
I asked them long ago about it.

Captain73

05-30-12, 12:40 PM

If you want to, I will give 50$ for a good cause!!!

GT182

05-30-12, 06:10 PM

I understand that the forum has thousands of members, but how many of them would be willing to support this idea...:06:

It's not so much their willingness to support a venture like this..... it's a question of if they are financially able able to support it. Some are more than others, but there are those that just don't have the extra money to do so.

TheDarkWraith

05-30-12, 08:35 PM

RAD Games will not sell you the SDK.

And that is why the GR2 Editor/Viewer is being worked on. Spite is a powerful motivator :D Just to be able to stick it to them and know that there's nothing they can do about it will forever bring a smile to my face :yep:

DanceCommander

05-30-12, 09:40 PM

And that is why the GR2 Editor/Viewer is being worked on. Spite is a powerful motivator :D Just to be able to stick it to them and know that there's nothing they can do about it will forever bring a smile to my face :yep:

where would SH5 be without you.

stick it to em! :salute:

Obelix

05-31-12, 01:11 AM

where would SH5 be without you.

stick it to em! :salute:
+1:rock:

misha1967

05-31-12, 01:51 AM

Interesting, all of it, but it faces a major hurdle in the form of IP rights.

I am not a lawyer, so I don't know where the line is drawn exactly between "adding functionality to a piece of software" and "fundamentally changing it in a way where it becomes a competitor to the original", but I'm sure there is one, and I'm even more sure that if Ubi found out that somebody had created a version of SH that basically blew everything that they might do with the franchise out of the water before they'd even started developing it, they'd swoop down with a murder of lawyers quicker than you can say "spit."

And I understand that too. If your Intellectual Property has been rendered worthless by a competing product that is, in its essentials, only existing because of your original code, then you have a legitimate issue.

The only way to get around this would be to reach some sort of agreement with Ubi, and I consider that a long shot. They could sell the rights outright, but I don't think that any community based effort could come out with that kind of dough, although I wish it weren't so. The other would be some sort of legal "sharing" agreement under which any competing product based on Ubi's code would pay back a percentage of its revenue while Ubi would still be able to develop their own. That might work, but I don't know.

Assuming that some sort of agreement, I'm sure there are other possibilities, that wouldn't require millions of dollars from the enthusiast community, and we are that, could be reached, then I could easily see it happening.

Wild-eyed, wishful but not unrealistic idea follows:

If the Dogs of Subsim Software Gurus are allowed to be unleashed through some agreement with Ubi, we'd need some cash to get the project rolling. But if the developers would be willing to work for free and, let's face it, they are doing just that already, with the promise of a percentage of sales if their project comes to fruition, then the seed capital wouldn't necessarily amount to a huge number. If, further, to encourage even more "investors" to invest in our favorite type of sim, an agreement was reached to pay back the initial investment if and ONLY if a finished product were to show up, perhaps with a small 10% return on investment to acknowledge the risk in putting money into something that you don't know is going to ever amount to anything, then raising funds shouldn't be a problem.

If that were the case, if I were promised that I'd get $110 back on my initial $100 donation if and ONLY if the work resulted in an actual product that could be sold, no obligation to pay me back anything if it fizzled out, then I'd be seriously tempted. After all, worst case scenario I'd be out $100, and I've blown more serious money on less serious projects on too many occasions to count and I TRUST the SubSim programmers to put out good stuff and, best case scenario, I'd not only get the best WWII submarine simulator ever made, I'd get it for free with a nice $10 check on top of it.

Also, whereas I, after about a decade's worth of hoping in vain that Ubi would ever get this particular sim right have pretty much given up on ever seeing my "dream" WWII sub sim, this model would actually give me hope again and that would easily be worth a hundred measly bucks. It would probably be worth a lot more. I've spent much more than that on this franchise over the years, don't even get me started on what building a box that would run SHIII well cost me.

And then there is a much simpler model, if Ubi would be amenable to it: Clearly, they're never going to get it right. They're too busy throwing out endless clones of what sells while paying scant attention to niches like ours. I understand that completely. They're a corporation. They need to make the bottom line, and it doesn't make sense to throw a fortune into something that might barely break even when you can churn out another Assassin's Creed (which I love, by the way) in a matter of months that will make you millions.

But if a substantial number of SubSim programming geniuses, and we all know that we have an abundance of them without me needing to name names, were to say to Ubi: "Hey, we can do this right if you'll let us have the tools, and we'll do it on our own time as we're already doing provided that you'll reimburse necessary technical expenses only during development and, in return, when we're done, and only if we get done, we'll split the proceeds of the final product. If we get it wrong you won't be out much since you won't have to pay any salaries and you won't have to bother with deadlines, and if we get it RIGHT, we'll all be shoveling in the money with almost no layout."

If I were Ubi and owned an IP that I clearly didn't know what to do with as has been proven over the years, that'd be a win-win proposition. Almost no loss if it didn't work and a potential huge profit if it did, because it WOULD sell and, considering the tiny investment needed, only research and tool prices, the loss would be minimal if it failed.

Just spit-balling here.

Sailor Steve

05-31-12, 07:08 AM

I am not a lawyer, so I don't know where the line is drawn exactly between "adding functionality to a piece of software" and "fundamentally changing it in a way where it becomes a competitor to the original",
Nor am I, but I think that as long as the purchase of the original is still required before you can play the modified version, you should be alright.

but I'm sure there is one, and I'm even more sure that if Ubi found out that somebody had created a version of SH that basically blew everything that they might do with the franchise out of the water before they'd even started developing it, they'd swoop down with a murder of lawyers quicker than you can say "spit."
This is exactly what happened five years ago. Pacific Aces was a brilliant mod which brought an American Campaign to SH2. People were starting to talk about doing the same for SH3, but Ubisoft quietly requested that they not do that, as the upcoming SH4 was going to be about the American Pacific campaign. The modders respected Ubi's wishes and the proposed American mod for SH3 never happened.

Creating other u-boat types should be no problem legally, but doing it right will take a lot more time and effort than some people seem to realize. New exteriors, complete new interiors, crew placement and animations, adding the whole thing to the campaign. Not impossible, but extremely difficult and time-consuming.

misha1967

05-31-12, 04:39 PM

Nor am I, but I think that as long as the purchase of the original is still required before you can play the modified version, you should be alright.

This is exactly what happened five years ago. Pacific Aces was a brilliant mod which brought an American Campaign to SH2. People were starting to talk about doing the same for SH3, but Ubisoft quietly requested that they not do that, as the upcoming SH4 was going to be about the American Pacific campaign. The modders respected Ubi's wishes and the proposed American mod for SH3 never happened.

Creating other u-boat types should be no problem legally, but doing it right will take a lot more time and effort than some people seem to realize. New exteriors, complete new interiors, crew placement and animations, adding the whole thing to the campaign. Not impossible, but extremely difficult and time-consuming.

Good point, Steve, but as you point out in the second paragraph, there is a grey area where modding an existing purchase reaches the point where it becomes hard for the IP owner to do anything further with their property along those same lines. If Ubi, for instance (I pray as everybody else here has been doing for years) decided that they'd make the ultimate WWII U-Boat sim with SH6, then it would be pointless for them to try if SH5, an existing product, had already been modded to the point where they'd be competing with themselves, so to speak.

Sure, to use that hypothetical Super Mod for SH5 you'd still have to purchase SH5, but the franchise would be dead for Ubi as far as future versions were concerned, and I completely understand why they would be opposed to that just the same way they were opposed to modding the Pacific into SH3. They've invested a lot of money in that IP, after all.

And bottom line, about adding the TypII to SH5 which is, after all, what this thread was originally about, I completely agree with you: I'm not a coder, but I'm sure it could be done, it's just that it's a much bigger task than I think a lot of people realize.

THE_MASK

05-31-12, 05:05 PM

They should be glad they are off the hook with there shoddy finished game . The modders are the saviour of this game .

quink99

05-31-12, 06:18 PM

hello,

With the progress of modders (thanksfor your job for the community:salute:), is it possible to expect one day a type II playable?
thanks for answers.

The original topic of this thread was whether we might one day expect a playable Type II boat. As one who would be thrilled to see a new type of boat a type II would be fine but more practical, I think, would be a Type IX.

I say this not because I have a personal preference but rather because the Type IX is used (in TRW) in all campaigns and is mandatory for historical accuracy in Trevally's and GAP's new Operation Monsun in OH II, a MOD many, if not most, would find it hard to live without. I, for one, am going through withdrawals as my current computer just doesn't doesn't have the horespower to cope with OHII even OHII light and I will have to wait for my new box so I can return to one of the best MODs available to us.

DanceCommander

05-31-12, 06:29 PM

The original topic of this thread was whether we might one day expect a playable Type II boat. As one who would be thrilled to see a new type of boat a type II would be fine but more practical, I think, would be a Type IX.

I say this not because I have a personal preference but rather because the Type IX is used (in TRW) in all campaigns and is mandatory for historical accuracy in Trevally's and GAP's new Operation Monsun in OH II, a MOD many, if not most, would find it hard to live without. I, for one, am going through withdrawals as my current computer just doesn't doesn't have the horespower to cope with OHII even OHII light and I will have to wait for my new box so I can return to one of the best MODs available to us.

Just to let you know, i recently had the same problem of not being able to run OHII. Dont know if youve tried this but taking away TDW UI mod and replacing it with whatever else will let my computer run OHII. throwing it out there.

Obelix

05-31-12, 07:33 PM

@misha1967
If do not talk to the laws of a purely human standpoint: for submitting any claims ubi should move ass. For the past two years have passed since ubi generally does not comment on the further development of sh5, does not provide any answers, no hints, and even circumstantial evidence that sh5 ever be fixed or will be released sh6. Here players are fit to wheel in a lawsuit against the ubi: the product is not finished, is full of errors, the money received from the players, but there is no action to remedy the defective product. That is, the rights of buyers actually violated and ubi got away with it. Members, instead of suits rolled up their sleeves and fix their own egregious shortcomings games. And if it's for and receive a claim from the ubi - it would be something. Law and Justice, it turns out different things? (when I took the exam for a driver's license, we have hinted, that you can take the exam in two ways: "the law" and "justly")

quink99

05-31-12, 08:12 PM

Just to let you know, i recently had the same problem of not being able to run OHII. Dont know if youve tried this but taking away TDW UI mod and replacing it with whatever else will let my computer run OHII. throwing it out there.

Thanks for the tip, Dance Commander, I'll give it as whirl though I'm not sure there's life after TDW's great UI MOD. I may have been using it for too long now to change.

Tomi_099

06-04-12, 05:21 PM

hello,

any news about the type II ? With the beautiful work of the modders, one day perhaps?:06:

many thanks for modders job:salute:

------------------------------------------------------

TYP II ---SH4---SH5 !!:salute:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9152/66895890.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6596/captureaa1.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5908/captureabv.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9062/51791022.jpg

lesec74

06-04-12, 11:45 PM

wonderful!!!:yeah::up:

Tomi 099, you work on it actually?

Commander Mysenses

06-07-12, 04:16 PM

Would there be demand for a kludged Type II, in the same vein as fromhell's (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=190992&highlight=type+ix)[REL] sort of IX Boat Mod? (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=190992&highlight=type+ix)

The speed, crush depth, fuel and torpedo loadout shouldn't be too hard to tweak.

Could the surplus torp tubes just be put out of action, a bit of permanent damage perhaps?

Madox58

06-07-12, 07:32 PM

Ubi ain't going to do jack crap in any area!

Any Mods will only sell more copies that they did not do anything to sell.

It's win win for them.
They get crappy? Mods stop, sales stop.

I think it's to a point that they couldn't stop anything if they tried.

BIGREG

06-08-12, 02:28 AM

Commander Mysenses

06-17-12, 12:37 PM

I think you put the cart before the horses :D
That's because I can play the cart without needing to look at the pretty horses!

kiwi_2005

06-22-12, 01:46 AM

I would love to see the IXD2 boats in SH5, pitty we couldn't just port over the one from SH4 Uboat missions without breaking the game.

lesec74

08-21-12, 11:16 AM

hello, nad many thanks for the modders!
any news about type II or others?
bye:salute:

silentmichal

10-09-12, 07:08 AM

I'll try to import whole type II into SH5:). I started working on it...

lesec74

10-09-12, 08:17 AM

:Kaleun_Party::Kaleun_Applaud:I'll try to import whole type II into SH5:). I started working on it...

gap

10-09-12, 09:06 AM

I'll try to import whole type II into SH5:). I started working on it...

Good luck :up:

silentmichal

10-09-12, 09:09 AM

Good luck :up:

Thanks :cool:.

GT182

10-10-12, 02:43 PM

If it works ok with the portover of the Type II, could you give the Type IX a try too?

silentmichal

10-16-12, 02:50 PM

If it works ok with the portover of the Type II, could you give the Type IX a try too?

Yes, but first i'll try import IIA type :yep:.

GT182

10-16-12, 06:00 PM

Sounds great Michal. This could be a new beginning for SH5 if it works.

Cybermat47

10-16-12, 06:05 PM

OK, now that silentmichal is on the case, we'll see a playable type II in about 2 weeks!

GT182

10-16-12, 06:13 PM

Cross yer fingers and toes Mat. ;)

lesec74

10-17-12, 05:37 AM

Yes, but first i'll try import IIA type :yep:.

hello Silentmichal and many thanks from france for your job!!:salute:

Have you some screenshots?
bye

silentmichal

10-17-12, 08:13 AM

OK, now that silentmichal is on the case, we'll see a playable type II in about 2 weeks!

2 weeks? Hmm, rather no :shifty:. I imported main boat to SH5, but interiors, settings not yet. I'm working on it :yep:. It looks... rather good :up:.

EDIT

You know, engine room has sth around 600 meshes. IT'S AWFUL LOT OF!

Targor Avelany

10-17-12, 10:16 AM

2 weeks? Hmm, rather no :shifty:. I imported main boat to SH5, but interiors, settings not yet. I'm working on it :yep:. It looks... rather good :up:.

EDIT

You know, engine room has sth around 600 meshes. IT'S AWFUL LOT OF!

sorry, not to be out of the way, but IIA is in the game already (at lest the IA version)... Or am I missing something from your esplanation :hmm2:

silentmichal

10-17-12, 11:25 AM

sorry, not to be out of the way, but IIA is in the game already (at lest the IA version)... Or am I missing something from your esplanation :hmm2:

OK. Yes, you're right - this submarine is avaiable, but not for us - only for AI (computer). And i don't know yet, how to ADD new submarine as playable - now i know, how to "translate" one of submarine - for ex. from VIIA --> to IIA. And UBI (Yes, i hate UBI:Kaleun_Mad:) didn't made interior (full) of this sub - they're lazy, and they made only VII interior (full). And, modders made it! Tomi_099 with his group made pretty (x1000) interior, for IIA submarine, here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=141858&page=89 (remember, that didn't release).So, he sent me this files, and i'll adapt it into SH5. Do you understeand:cool:?

Targor Avelany

10-17-12, 11:47 AM

OK. Yes, you're right - this submarine is avaiable, but not for us - only for AI (computer). And i don't know yet, how to ADD new submarine as playable - now i know, how to "translate" one of submarine - for ex. from VIIA --> to IIA. And UBI (Yes, i hate UBI:Kaleun_Mad:) didn't made interior (full) of this sub - they're lazy, and they made only VII interior (full). And, modders made it! Tomi_099 with his group made pretty (x1000) interior, for IIA submarine, here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=141858&page=89 (remember, that didn't release).So, he sent me this files, and i'll adapt it into SH5. Do you understeand:cool:?

Oh yeah, that is what I'm planning to do with the IX (C most likely).
I just assumed you took the actual hull of the IIA from SH3/SH5, when you could have exported/imported from the GR2 files themselves.

GT182

10-17-12, 02:36 PM

Michal, UBI wasn't lazy in a sence of the word. It was a money thng, and they figured they needed the profits more than a game that worked " right out of the box" like we'd expect it to be. Silly us. Then they made promises they wouldn't keep, and promptly dumped SH5 to the rear of the bottom shelf out in the outhouse. Sorry I'm spouting off about UBI, but I believe I speak for many out there that bought SH5 with high expectations.

The Type II and Type IX were supposed to have been included in SH5, but were left out for the sake of the almighty dollar.

silentmichal

10-17-12, 02:59 PM