ai traffic

[denny927]

hi all,

i have a problem about ai traffic...in a campaign i dont see any sort of traffic, except for a few sampan or a single and lonely dd...

this is very frustrating for me, the only thing i can is find a harbour waiting for the night and sink more sships as i can...and is not very fun.

if i wait or patrol, i can finish all fuel, or stay in the sea until the end of war.
is there any tricks(some line from some cfg file to modify/add) for increase the traffic?

ooops, running silent hunter 1.5(uboats) and trigger maru 2.0.
thanks in advance and very sorry for my english...;)

[magic452]

Early in the war you want to work out of Fremantle or Brisbane. The Flores Sea area to the Solomon Island is good and also all the way up to the Luzon Strait and the South China Sea. Around Singapore is good also but not a lot of deep water to work with there.

A little later is when things seem to happen in the Japanese home waters.
The Sea of Japan gets a lot of traffic also but be careful getting in there.

You have to pay attention to those little intro maps they show and try to work the areas that are getting all the attention as the war moves along.

Good luck and better hunting

Magic

PS your English is much better than my Italian. Pizza is about it for me. :D

[TorpX]

hi all,

i have a problem about ai traffic...in a campaign i dont see any sort of traffic, except for a few sampan or a single and lonely dd...

.........is there any tricks(some line from some cfg file to modify/add) for increase the traffic?

ooops, running silent hunter 1.5(uboats) and trigger maru 2.0.
thanks in advance and very sorry for my english...;)
Have you tried the RSRDC mod? It makes the traffic conform to what it was historically. There is a version specifically for TMO.

[Daniel Prates]

You will never (or rarely) find targets in the open ocean. It is just too large for you to bump into anything too frequently. Now what you can do, is to prey on natural chocking points, or known sealanes.

Some supermods as RSRD and TMO deal with the issue of putting historicaly acurate traffic in their correct positions. But I would guess that your current problem is not looking in the right places.


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9657/p047tyi8.jpg

[denny927]

You will never (or rarely) find targets in the open ocean. It is just too large for you to bump into anything too frequently. Now what you can do, is to prey on natural chocking points, or known sealanes.

Some supermods as RSRD and TMO deal with the issue of putting historicaly acurate traffic in their correct positions. But I would guess that your current problem is not looking in the right places.


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9657/p047tyi8.jpg

thanks at all...i'll give a try tomorrow following this map,seems very good, after sending to the "bikini bottom" some dd and some merchant( im in the middle of a small convoy):salute:

[Armistead]

Stock traffic is poorly done in game, ships can spawn places where historically you wouldn't ever see them, moreso with capital ships such as carriers. Stock includes some of the battles, but poorly done.

TMO traffic is basically stock traffic, except in later versions Ducimas started playing with traffic. He would admit TMO is not a mod like RSRD traffic wise, but seems last I looked at TMO traffic alone he reworked some of the battles more correctly and added some minor traffic, but overall it's still mostly random stock traffic.

RSRD totally rewrites traffic to almost historic perfection, however some find it difficult finding traffic because they're use to stock traffic that can pop up about anywhere anytime. RSRD actually scripts over 1500 historical convoys and adds 100's of battles small to large. If you know history or use common sense as they war progresses you will find RSRD a great mod. The battles are amazing. For instance the Solomons campaign is absent in stock, TMO has a lil, RSRD scripts all the battles and action. There were several large battles and many smaller ones there. It's important to stay in good shipping lanes with RSRD the correct year, doing so you can run into large convoys and invasion groups, 30-60 ships.

[Daniel Prates]

RIght on. TMO + RSRD is my favorite supermod pack so far.

[denny927]

Stock traffic is poorly done in game, ships can spawn places where historically you wouldn't ever see them, moreso with capital ships such as carriers. Stock includes some of the battles, but poorly done.

TMO traffic is basically stock traffic, except in later versions Ducimas started playing with traffic. He would admit TMO is not a mod like RSRD traffic wise, but seems last I looked at TMO traffic alone he reworked some of the battles more correctly and added some minor traffic, but overall it's still mostly random stock traffic.

RSRD totally rewrites traffic to almost historic perfection, however some find it difficult finding traffic because they're use to stock traffic that can pop up about anywhere anytime. RSRD actually scripts over 1500 historical convoys and adds 100's of battles small to large. If you know history or use common sense as they war progresses you will find RSRD a great mod. The battles are amazing. For instance the Solomons campaign is absent in stock, TMO has a lil, RSRD scripts all the battles and action. There were several large battles and many smaller ones there. It's important to stay in good shipping lanes with RSRD the correct year, doing so you can run into large convoys and invasion groups, 30-60 ships.

thanks again i'll give a look after finish my campaign:O:

[Ducimus]

TMO traffic is basically stock traffic, except in later versions Ducimas started playing with traffic. He would admit TMO is not a mod like RSRD traffic wise, but seems last I looked at TMO traffic alone he reworked some of the battles more correctly and added some minor traffic, but overall it's still mostly random stock traffic.
.

The only semblence TMO traffic has to stock traffic, is the traffic routes as to where they originate, where they go, and by what avenue of approach are essentially unchanged. All similarities to stock, stop there.

- All convoys zig zag at regular intervals, with some randomization.
- convoy composition is changed
- escort composition is changed
- how frequent the traffic spawns into the game world is changed.
- some speeds are changed
- some cargo (IE what merchants are carrying) is changed


The gist to the traffic in TMO is this:
I took to changing everything i could, that could be changed "globally". Speeds, spawn frequencies, etc etc. After that, i went through each individual entry for traffic, for the entire war, by hand manually to change cargo, and group compositions. Infact, i went through them all, TWICE.

In sum, i put more work into it, then most people realize. I didn't change the traffic routes, because
a.) I'd have to rewrite everything from scratch if i did. ( Considering i changed everything else, I may as well have.)
b.) I couldn't automate or use global commands to change where the traffic routed to. All that, has to be done by hand. In a scenario where i was doing most everything to a supermod by myself, I had to go for efficiency. I had too many pans on the stove.

Most of the changes i did took place in two programs.
a.) an automated campaign scripter whos name i forget. I used this to add zig zag all the traffic. (script this program used courteously provided by Lurker)

b.) WORDPAD. Using find "Find and Replace", very carefully.

Aside from that, i only cracked open the SH4 mission editor, to adjust group composition because, even though it was long, and tedious, it was still the best way i had available to me.

Anyway, there you have it. Even thoguh the traffic routes are the same, everything else is different. Saying TMO traffic is stock, after all the tedious BS i had to do with it, gets me angsty enough to write up this long ass post.

[Armistead]

The only semblence TMO traffic has to stock traffic, is the traffic routes as to where they originate, where they go, and by what avenue of approach are essentially unchanged. All similarities to stock, stop there.

- All convoys zig zag at regular intervals, with some randomization.
- convoy composition is changed
- escort composition is changed
- how frequent the traffic spawns into the game world is changed.
- some speeds are changed
- some cargo (IE what merchants are carrying) is changed


The gist to the traffic in TMO is this:
I took to changing everything i could, that could be changed "globally". Speeds, spawn frequencies, etc etc. After that, i went through each individual entry for traffic, for the entire war, by hand manually to change cargo, and group compositions. Infact, i went through them all, TWICE.

In sum, i put more work into it, then most people realize. I didn't change the traffic routes, because
a.) I'd have to rewrite everything from scratch if i did. ( Considering i changed everything else, I may as well have.)
b.) I couldn't automate or use global commands to change where the traffic routed to. All that, has to be done by hand. In a scenario where i was doing most everything to a supermod by myself, I had to go for efficiency. I had too many pans on the stove.

Most of the changes i did took place in two programs.
a.) an automated campaign scripter whos name i forget. I used this to add zig zag all the traffic. (script this program used courteously provided by Lurker)

b.) WORDPAD. Using find "Find and Replace", very carefully.

Aside from that, i only cracked open the SH4 mission editor, to adjust group composition because, even though it was long, and tedious, it was still the best way i had available to me.

Anyway, there you have it. Even thoguh the traffic routes are the same, everything else is different. Saying TMO traffic is stock, after all the tedious BS i had to do with it, gets me angsty enough to write up this long ass post.


Haha, I enjoyed the long post, but seems the last I looked traffic routes were the same as stock... :har:

Honestly it would be silly to rewrite traffic with RSRD, so I don't blame you..Seems I played TMO without RSRD once and I do now recall some speed changes and better zig patterns.

I thought you rescripted the battles somewhat, added more correct groups and courses?

[Ducimus]

If you still have TMO installed, pick any convoy layer. Say late 42, early 43 or onward.

Immediately, you should notice that the convoy route while going along the same general path is not exactly the same. Zoom in on any convoy path, and it will look something like this:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/nozigzagshere.jpg
Each one of those legs, is roughly 20 to 30 KM if i remember correctly. Each circle you see at one of those waypoints, if i remember correctly, is about 10 KM.

Traffic doesnt follow the exact line, because the 10KM radius at each waypoint defines the width of that lane. It also says, "I will turn randomly at this waypoint anywhere within this 10 KM radius." So if one deduces the zig zag pattern, and thinks each leg to be a certain length, the convoy will still not shift direction at 100% perfect intervals. It may zig zag a little bit before, or after you anticipate it to, assuming one you were to track a convoy long enough to figure out roughly how long the zig zag legs were.

In each convoy entry. Click on it, right click, and i beleive the sub menu was "define group composition". Compare that with any stock version of the exact same entry and you'll find several differences.

1.) Each unit listed as 1 each. I didn't put, "4 Each of This ship". I put 4 different indvidual entries. The reason is, in SH3, sometime ships would spawn on top of each other, Or they wouldn't follow in a group correctly. I didn't take any chances and "fixed" this as I knew to do in SH3.

2.) All units are "generic". Meaning, the game will randomly spawn any ship within this class. Generic tanker, generic troop ship. Each time the group spawns, it will randomize the ship within that type. So no instances of that convoy group should have the exact same ships.

3.) You'll find some ships have ammo as a cargo, some tankers have oil or fuel. I even went as so far as to make sure that tankers heading to japan had oil/fuel. Tankers heading away from japan might not. From what i've read, Nobody seems to have figured out that northbound tankers have a much higher probably to go BOOM, then southbound tankers in TMO.

4.) Crew ratings (obviously)

5.) Number of columns, and their spacing. As i recall, default spacing is 500 meters. I made them around 700 or so. This is to fix ships from fishtailing while following the ship in front of it. Stock SH3 had this problem. Again, i didn't take any chances, and fixed this ahead of time.

6.) Some units are not 100% spawning. I intentionally lowered the spawn chances of some ships within a convoy group, to randomize the number of ships within the convoy, and/or the number of escorts i has. Idea being, along with the use of generic entries that no two convoys should be of the exact same ships and numbers of them. In theory at least.

7.) The number of escorts and the number of merchants. Stock did some stupid things like 10 escorts and 30 merchants for every convoy. This is one of the first things I addressed.

lastly, If you check the "group properties", you should notice the spawn frequency is very different then stock.

[Armistead]

I'll take a look when I feel like backing out all my mods to TMO. I assume you use the batch editor, what I use to rework RSRD traffic... The zig work is much needed in RSRD.

I'm sure you know the evasive short zig ships take when they know you're around, really more helming than a zig, do you know how to increase that?

Indeed, if you went through each group, that was some work...

[Ducimus]

I assume you use the batch editor, what I use to rework RSRD traffic... The zig work is much needed in RSRD.

Automated campaign scripter i think is the name, now that I think of it. Java app someone wrote a long time ago. As to zig work and RSRD in general. I do not know the workings of RSRD. I haven't looked at it in a very long time. I was always focused on my own work, and too busy to look at Lurkers. Lurker and I have different design philosophies when as to the campaign. So I went and did my own thing, putting as much effort as i could..... ration for it. It's also bears mentioning he focused primarly on the campaign. Where as i didn't focus on any ONE thing. My effort was spread out, and it shows.

I'm not saying his or my design ideas were any better or worse then each other, only we had different ideas. That , i think is one of the greatest hallmarks of the modding community in SH4. Even though everyone had different ideas, we were still able to work with each other and share knowledge, tools, tips, etc. The cornerstone to all that, is to understand, and respect, a modders individual idea on what they want to achieve with their game.

Anyway....... as to zig zags, there's a couple different ways to achieve that. The way I chose, has it's limits. The kick in the crotch is how long or short you make those legs, or waypoints. The closer you make those waypoints, the more the game has to process and the larger the campaign file becomes. For example, if you set the zig zag legs short enough, say to perhaps 10KM, that one single convoy layer file goes from 512 KB to something on the order of say 5 MB. Most of that data being waypoints the game has to process. This also increase load time, cpu cycles on your machine, and really bogs the game down. Conversely, set the legs too far apart, and it lacks the desired effect. The happy point is in between. I tested it a few times and found the leg length of about 20 or 30KM (I forget the exact number), to be ideal. Not too short, not too long. Like Goldylocks and the 3 bears, it was juuuust right, all things considered. All said, Tater is the authority on this particular subject.





I'm sure you know the evasive short zig ships take when they know you're around, really more helming than a zig, do you know how to increase that?

That's hard coded behavior.


Indeed, if you went through each group, that was some work..
It might not be as focused and detailed according to Tabulated Record of Movements, but a lot of thought did go into it. For example, I was sly about my use of generic entries, in terms of adding ships to TMO. I did the files in such a way where you can add ships to TMO. You don't need me to do this. If you know how to add a ship to a roster, you can have it appear anywhere you want, without ever having to mess with the campaign files at all.

For example, Generic Destroyers, with maybe one or two exceptions only appear in task forces. Destroyer Escorts, only appear in convoys. Corvettes, i forget. The point is, by what you specifiy the new ships type to be, you dictated where it will appear in the campaign, and because the campaign files are generic entries, it has a chance to spawn any ship of that type. Im a big fan of Generic entries. Though, they were right unpopular in my sordid past. Wonderful thing about being your own boss in mod design; you don't have anyone putting a clamp down on your creativity.

[TorpX]

I'm sure you know the evasive short zig ships take when they know you're around, really more helming than a zig, do you know how to increase that?

....

How about this:

Instead of--

small freighter.......8 kts cruising speed
...........................10 kts max speed

It sees your torpedos and rings up max speed, but due to constant helming actually slows down to 5 kts........silly and pointless........


Have it this way--

small freighter.......8 kts cruising speed
...........................16 kts max speed

It sees your torpedos and rings up max speed, it still uses constant helming but only slows down to 11 kts........not so bad........


Is this possible?

[Armistead]

How about this:
Instead of--

small freighter.......8 kts cruising speed
...........................10 kts max speed

It sees your torpedos and rings up max speed, but due to constant helming actually slows down to 5 kts........silly and pointless........


Have it this way--

small freighter.......8 kts cruising speed
...........................16 kts max speed

It sees your torpedos and rings up max speed, it still uses constant helming but only slows down to 11 kts........not so bad........


Is this possible?


To my knowledge the speed evasive ships take are coded. The behavior I'm talking about is not dodging torps, but the small legs they go into when they know you're there. I can get spotted on purpose from long distance and the group goes into the automatic evasive helming always slowing down. SUre you mean the same thing, but this zigging isn't to avoid actual torps as much they know you're around. Most ships if possible will take hard turns to avoid torps. Evading torps ships will speed up or slow down depending on how they can best avoid it.

What's silly is this slow down helming, the zig pattern has hardly any effect on course and doesn't throw your shot off much. Be nice if they would at least stay in a zig leg for a mile or so. In some groups when you attack the convoy will break up, head off in different directions which speeds being everywhere, this is good behavior, just not enough of it. Eventually the group comes back together.

To my knowledge only one speed can be set and the makeup of a group can only go as fast as it's slowest ship...BUT..somewhere code dictates, seems groups will only slow down so much and often will leave a damaged ship behind, then again sometimes the group slows down to the damaged ships speed and remains with it. I attacked Kurita's Center Force and had a Kongo and CA slowed, Kongo could only make 12 kts, the main group left him never slowing down from 22kts. Attacked another TF later and damaged a carrier, entire group slowed from 17 to 7kts, best speed of carrier.

[Armistead]

Ducimas,

Do you know where to find this "Automated campaign scripter " and are you sure it's not the SH4 batch editor, although I believe it's based on "python".

I plan to back out just to TMO and give it a try, but would like to add more ships and more traffic just for myself. Can you use the ME alone to add traffic or must you use the "ACS". Sure you know the ME doesn't work for adding traffic to RSRD, so wondered about the ME with yours not knowing what or how the ACS works....

I mainly want to add traffic to the China coast. I did this within RSRD and actually ran a lot of shipping along the coast, in and out of harbors, through inlets, etc.., where you really had only one side to attack from.

[TorpX]

To my knowledge the speed evasive ships take are coded. The behavior I'm talking about is not dodging torps, but the small legs they go into when they know you're there. .......

Yes, I know what you are talking about. They are evading; just not evading any particular torp. My point is that while AI behavior is hard coded, speed is not. The idea is to compensate for the constant helming slowdown by artificially pumping up the speed. I was assuming that ships have a cruising and max. speed.

[Armistead]

Yes, I know what you are talking about. They are evading; just not evading any particular torp. My point is that while AI behavior is hard coded, speed is not. The idea is to compensate for the constant helming slowdown by artificially pumping up the speed. I was assuming that ships have a cruising and max. speed.


I realize it's sort of the same, except if ships somehow find you out before you shoot they will go into the zig pattern and slow down at a more constant speed. This is more of a fixed zig pattern they will do regardless if you shoot torps or not. If you shoot torps their speeds can increase or decrease to miss torps and often they'll make sharp turns to dodge your torps, then usually go back to the helming.

As far as I know you can only set one speed for ships and they will hold to that speed. When it comes to going into zigs or increasing/decreasing speed to evade torps that has to be coded behavior and speeds can be anywhere depending on what the AI feels is needed to dodge a torp. Like the BB I shot at last night, it was going 17kts, it got me on radar and went into the helming and slowed to 12kts, when I finally shot at it, it slowed almost down to nothing to dodge the bow torp, turning away, then cranked up to flank speed to try and dodge the torp coming aft. Course we all hate the turbo stops and starts a ship can do to evade torps, but I know of no speed factors that can be adjusted manually here.

[tater]

Ships accelerate too fast, frankly. They decelerate too fast as well.

The campaign system has many limitations.

The way ducimus deals with stuff is actually my preferred way, as much as I love RSRDC.

I did a HUGE amount of experimentation with zig zag patterns, and it's simply unworkable because of limitations in the game engine. It's something that should have been built in as a standard behavior from the start of game design. In wartime MOST ships zig zag. Period. ZZs are NOT /\/\/\/\/, they are in fact very complex patterns. Times between turns are set to be short enough to be meaningful in RL. That means short enough that a torpedo fired might miss, so that means straight lines on the order of (or shorter) than torpedo run times.

As duci said, with realistic ZZs, I could get no more than a couple convoys in a single editor layer without crashing the editor using realistic (exact japanese convoy patterns) ZZs.

The basic notion of generic—but appropriate—entries is a good one. My campaign was based up on that. Certain historical units might then be separated so they are appropriately rare.

A far better AI and mission system was what I wanted to see with newer versions of SH, not stuff that is to me idiotic (interior animations, yawn).

tater

[Armistead]

I agree, I once tried heavy ZZ paterns with RSRD to figure out the overload flaw quickly, that's why I wish there was a way to change the evasive helming into a longer ZZ pattern, so you don't have to overload with waypoints to do it.

I agree, generic shipping is great for building randomly spawned groups, lurker acutally uses a lot of generic ships himself, just a lot more groups are designed and all the battles are scripted with correct ships as much as allowed.

Hate the evasise ZZ's are hard coded that we can't extend the legs, instead of the silly helming that has lil effect on your setup.

[tater]

Frankly, within the limitations of the engine, I started to think about the possibility of changing the detection radius of the enemy such that convoys would ALWAYS be alerted to you. They should ALWAYS be ZZing, and on a time scale of minutes per leg. 100% of the time.

I'm very well aware of the RSRD campaign, and the inner workings, trust me :)

[Armistead]

Frankly, within the limitations of the engine, I started to think about the possibility of changing the detection radius of the enemy such that convoys would ALWAYS be alerted to you. They should ALWAYS be ZZing, and on a time scale of minutes per leg. 100% of the time.

I'm very well aware of the RSRD campaign, and the inner workings, trust me :)

Change detection radius, always tried to figure that one out, but to shorten it, because the PC lag always gives a group away because the zone appears to reach out to the distance of your best equipment regardless, you know, people get the lag then go check sonar themselves.

I thought that was hard coded, seems if you extended it, it would pick up all groups within that range both ways, slow the ships down, etc...the helming doesn't really effect much....However if you know a way to increase the minutes that would be great once they start ZZ..

[TorpX]

Do ships/convoys in SH III zig? And if so, how do SH III mod deal with the issue?

[tater]

When lurker and I first started doing ZZs there was nothing like it in SH (it was the first thing I started working on when I saw the existence of the ACE, and lurker ended up helping me a lot (his first work with it was to have ACE generate an entire campaign randomly)).

The lack of ZZs is a fundamental flaw in the SH series. It's like a flight sim game (single player) where enemy aircraft do not evade. Every single bit of added eye-candy in SH5 would be un-missed if ZZing, and better AI were to replace all that effort.