Stiebler_Addon_for_V16A3. (Patch)

[Stiebler]

Stiebler_Addon_for_V16A3.
This patch is now available from my signature below. Full instructions are included with the patch, so I summarise briefly here:

1. The patch is a hard-code fix that can be applied ONLY (at present*) to a legitimate copy of SH3.exe that has already been patched with H.sie’s V1.6A3 ‘Wolf pack’ patch. The Stiebler Addon provides extra functions.
(* H.sie has reallocated spare memory in SH3.exe, and has very generously allowed to me a large slice of the new, allocated space. It means that this Stiebler_Addon_for_V16A3 patch *should be* applicable to later H.sie patches of SH3.exe, but this is not guaranteed.)

2. The mods provided with the Stiebler_Addon_for_V16A3 are these:
a) CAM-ship mod, as seen previously with the old Stiebler patch for H.sie patch V16G3 (prevents the single Hurricane flown off once from a CAM-ship from making repeated attacks over a period of days or even weeks.)
b) Surrender-at-sea mod, another old favourite. Now you may survive being sunk.
c) ‘Smoke-on-horizon’ mod. Your bridge-watch shouts out ‘Smoke on Horizon, Sir!’ when a convoy (or battle-group) is sighted. Owing to changes that I made to the ‘Convoy Contact’ code, this mod functions exceptionally well now. The same adaption has been made to H.sie’s Wolf Pack mod, to improve shadowing of convoys.
d) Silent-Running mod, which causes your U-boat to sink very slowly when silent-running (pumps no longer function). This mod originally functioned at all depths, and therefore required specially lengthened periscopes in the U-boat turm, but this requirement has now been ended. The Silent-Running mod functions only at depths > 100m.
e) Asdic in shallow-waters fix. This is a new mod that attempts to fix the problem that asdic should be less effective against U-boats in shallow waters. The asdic fix should be regarded as a beta-test, and I am open to suggestions that the parameters should be made more or less effective, depending on user experiences.

3. Two subsidiary folders are supplied. One contains key files that you will need to add your SH3 isntallation, preferably with JScones’ JSGME. The other contains substitute or example files, that should be added to the key files. Full instructions are provided with the patch itself.

4. A new Options Selector (version 1.5) is included. Again, this will function only with H.sie patches of SH3.exe from V16A3 onwards. It is now possible to set the H.sie mod options by toggling the appropriate boxes ON/OFF in one dialog box, and to set the Stiebler options in a separate dialog box.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I created the Stiebler_addon patch with my own preferred options clicked ON, and did all the testing with these preferences. These options are probably not *your* preferred options, so be sure to choose them carefully. In particular, if you do not have a 64-bit computer, then un-check the 4-Gbyte RAM option (top of first dialog box). As always, users of NYGM should ensure that the ‘Realistic Repairs’ option is ticked OFF.

That’s about it, for now.

Stiebler. (Release date 11/11/2011.)

[Fish In The Water]

e) Asdic in shallow-waters fix. This is a new mod that attempts to fix the problem that asdic should be less effective against U-boats in shallow waters. The asdic fix should be regarded as a beta-test, and I am open to suggestions that the parameters should be made more or less effective, depending on user experiences.

Looking forward to trying this out. Thank you very much for the release. :salute:

[reaper7]

Brilliant, can't wit to try it out. Thanks Stiebler for your continued work :up:

[Magic1111]

Thanks Stiebler, excellent work! :up:

Best regards,
Magic

[Randomizer]

Thank you for your continued work on SH3!

[Jaeger]

thank you, outstanding. really appreciated! :rock:

[U-Falke]

These are very nice resources for SH3. Please consider, in the near future, to merge it with the torpedo reload mod and the V16A3 mod! :up:

[Rubini]

Tahnks again Stiebler!

I had no oportunnity to ask a doubt of mine related to the ASDIC mod. I followed a bit the discussion on the thread.

My question: after adding this value 100 to Ai_sensors.dat the value on sim.cfg is now useless, am I correct? (I believe that this is also true for any other value in sim.cfg that have the counterpart on AI_sensors.dat different than zero - and more, probably true for others files in SH3 too.)

[LGN1]

Hi Stiebler,

thanks for your work :up:

I've seen that you've included a file for GWX. I know that the SH3 Commander files for GWX change values in this file (this also holds for stock,...). Since it uses the offset, it's important that this offset is still correct. If not you will get a CTD. Have you made sure that the offset is still correct? I ask because SH3ditor adds a header that changes the offset and quite a few GWX files don't have this header (stock files neither, of course).

Please don't get my comment wrong. I just want to make sure that potential CTDs are avoided. Players who change the files should know about the risks in connection with SH3 Commander.

Regards, LGN1

[Stiebler]

@LGN1:

I used File-Analyzer to make the changes. But thanks for the warning about S3Ditor's addition, of which I was not aware previously.

I have just checked the file lengths: original GWX AI_Sensors.dat file: 17,192 bytes; same file converted for use with the asdic mod: 17,192 bytes. Therefore file-length has not been altered, only the contents. So it is safe to use the modified files, supplied with the asdic mod, in SH3Commander.

@Rubini:
I have little information about when values are used from sim.cfg, and from AI_Sensors.dat. However, from observation, it seems that values in AI_Sensors.dat usually (always?) have priority.

I hope this helps.

Stiebler.

[HW3]

Thank you for your work on this. I have it all set up and ready to go, now to find the time to play it.

:salute:

[Fish In The Water]

Just wanted to add I've got mine up and running with testing underway. Thanks again for all the ongoing work! :salute:

[andqui]

I'm consistently getting a CTD with Stiebler's additions, and not with just the h.sie patch. Here is what I did, using a GWX install:

1. Ran Stiebler's batch file and his version of the options selector
2. Put that into the supplement folder
3. Installed the additions to the en_ and de_menu.txt
4. Copied the .cfg's for the three CAM ships, added the air group, and changed the unit type to 8
5. Used S3ditor to apply minsurface=100 to each of the sonar types
6. Installed the finished supplement, with the above ship files and the new sensor file added into it.

H.sie's patch is succesfully installed and runs fine. When I apply Stiebler's patch on top of that, I get a CTD while loading. This is with any combination of options (all off, all on, one on), and with and without the modified sensor file.

Any suggestions on how I should establish what is causing the crash?

thanks

[LGN1]

Hi Andqui,

are you using SH Commander? If yes, see my post above.

Cheers, LGN1

[andqui]

I am using SH3 commander- but the CTD occurs both when I start from SH3C and when I start the sh3.exe without Commander. It also occurs if I leave out the changed sensors file- so it's not that.

[h.sie]

@andqui: if you have 64 bit, you could try to start the game without the patched sh3sim.act. does it load now?

[HW3]

I also am getting a CTD using Stiebler's additions and GWX. I was not getting one with Stiebler's V15G2 additions. I checked the size of the AI_Sensors.dat file, and it is the same size as GWX's 17,192 bytes.:hmmm:

P.S. Testing without the Sim.act now.

[HW3]

I forgot to say I have a 64bit system. I took the Sim.act out and it still crashed at the same loading spot, 3/4's of the way on the loading bar. The message is something like this "SH3 has stopped working, Windows will check for a solution for this problem, and close the program now."

:salute:

[HW3]

I figured it out. The Cam ship cfg file is missing from the data/Roster/British/Sea file. Once I made a cfg file and Sea folder and put them in, it loaded right up.:DL

[andqui]

I checked the removing the .act did not help. I checked the data/roster/british/sea configs for the three cam ships, and changed all of them to type 8 to correspond with the change in the other config file, but I still get the same crash. HW3, could you be more specific about what needed fixing?

If/When I get the cam ships to work, will changing them to a warship type change their appearance in the game? I thought ships in the random layer used the type to put a random suitable ship in place- if it's designated as a warship, will that lead to problems?

thanks

[HW3]

I'm not sure if I missed the part of the instructions to make the ship file folder and put the Cam ship .cfg file in it, then put the ship file folder into the data/Roster/British folder. That is all I did, and it worked for me.

:salute:

[andqui]

Here's what I have in the supplement mod folder:

Data/Roster/British/Sea/:
M21B.cfg
M36B.cfg
T14B.cfg

Each of was copied from the same folder in my SH3 installation, which includes GWX and the Merchant Fleet Mod, and the unit type was changed to 8

Data/Sea/M21B:
M21B.cfg
Data/Sea/M36B:
M36B.cfg
Data/Sea/T14B:
T14B.cfg

Each of these was copied from the same folder in my SH3 installation. I changed the unit type to 8, and added the air group entry.

I still don't know what's wrong.

[fitzcarraldo]

Hi Andqui,

are you using SH Commander? If yes, see my post above.

Cheers, LGN1

I see you post above. I have CTDs EVER when I load the game from SH3 Comm.

I didn´t make tests without Commander. No CTD with H.Sie patch only.

What is the problem? I use MaGUI 3.4 WS and I don´t know if the GUI interferes with the changes in buttons in the Stiebler´s patch. Also I use MEP v3 20k with the AI Sensors.dat; this file is overwrited by Stiebler´s patch (the AI Sensors.dat for GWX).

I´ll make a new, pure installation of GWX for testing.

Many thanks to Stiebler for this awesome work, but I wait to make work the patch :cry:

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[HW3]

I'm running GWX, and the full MFM but, only have the M36B setup in Stiebler´s patch. I might not have it right though, as I did not add the air group entry to the .cfg file.:hmmm:

[andqui]

I tried taking out the two other CAM ships and using only the M36B, and still got the CTD. Maybe it's not CAM related... anything else in the supplement that could cause a CTD at around 66% of the loading bar. I've tried making the patch again from scratch- it works fine with h.sie's mod, and something is going wrong when I try to apply Stiebler's patch.

[fitzcarraldo]

I tried taking out the two other CAM ships and using only the M36B, and still got the CTD. Maybe it's not CAM related... anything else in the supplement that could cause a CTD at around 66% of the loading bar. I've tried making the patch again from scratch- it works fine with h.sie's mod, and something is going wrong when I try to apply Stiebler's patch.

The same: CTD at around 70% of loading bar.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[LGN1]

I see you post above. I have CTDs EVER when I load the game from SH3 Comm.

I didn´t make tests without Commander. No CTD with H.Sie patch only.

What is the problem? I use MaGUI 3.4 WS and I don´t know if the GUI interferes with the changes in buttons in the Stiebler´s patch. Also I use MEP v3 20k with the AI Sensors.dat; this file is overwrited by Stiebler´s patch (the AI Sensors.dat for GWX).

I´ll make a new, pure installation of GWX for testing.

Many thanks to Stiebler for this awesome work, but I wait to make work the patch :cry:

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

Hi Fitcarraldo,

I don't think that your CTDs are related to SH Commander. There seems to be something else wrong.

However, concerning the problems with SH Commander, I've found this nice, old thread that explains it well:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=157490

Cheers, LGN1

PS: It's not limited to the Malfunction and Sabotage option. E.g., SH Commander simulates thermal layers by changing the MinHeight values in the file AI_Sensors.dat. Thus, if you have a modified AI_Sensors.dat with a differen hex-offset you will get a CTD even without the Malfunction and Sabotage option enabled.

It's a severe problem that is frequently not taken into account when new mods are released. And since SH Commander and S3D are very popular, it can occur easily.

[HW3]

I just tried it with my install on my laptop, which does not have the MFM installed, and is running Windows 7 64bit. Without the Sea folder in data/Roster/British=crash at about 75% loading. I then added the Sea/M36B.cfg in, and it loaded up.

This is the how my .cfg looks.
[UnitClass]
ClassName=M36B
UnitType=8;100
AppearanceDate=19410501
DisappearanceDate=19430601
DisplayName=CAM-Ship

[Unit 1]
Name=CAM-Ship
DOC=19410501
DOD=19430601

Other than that, I have no idea what could be wrong.:06:

P.S. I am loading through SH3 Commander.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: As Stiebler already mentioned: His edited file AI_Sensors_GWX.dat has exacty the same size as the original GWX file. So this cannot the reason for the problem.

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I know. I don't think the current problem is related to the SH Commander issue. I just wanted to explain the problem in more detail after fitzcarraldo asked about it.

I might have an idea what's the problem: In order to have the ship working as an airbase, you have to change the type to 8 (escort carrier). This must be done in the ship's folder (.cfg file. You also have to change the airbase part) and in the roster folder (.cfg file). Now your M36B has the type 8. However, if your campaign files contain a M36B with type 100 you will get problems.

The problem is that in the original GWX campaign files there is no M36B :hmmm: So it shouldn't be a problem.

Regards, LGN1

[LGN1]

If/When I get the cam ships to work, will changing them to a warship type change their appearance in the game? I thought ships in the random layer used the type to put a random suitable ship in place- if it's designated as a warship, will that lead to problems?

thanks

You will hardly see the CAM ship in GWX because there are only very few generic British type=8 entries before June '43. For seeing the CAM ship more frequently in convoys, you will have to do some changes to the campaign files.

[Stiebler]

It seems that the problems with my Addon Patch are always due to the CAM-ship.

The description by Fitzcarraldo and HW3 of a crash at about 70-75% of loading are classic symptoms of an error in the campaign_RND.mis file (or possibly the campaign_SCR.mis file, depends on their relative sizes, but usually the _RND.mis file is much larger than the _SCR.mis file). Since my patch does not change either of these two campaign files, it is certain that people are making errors in installing their CAM-ships.

The CAM-ship mod serves only to prevent the annoying problem, that the CAM-ship behaves like an aircraft carrier (allows aircraft to fly continually, instead of only once). If you do not have a CAM-ship in your installation, then my mod serves no purpose. Don't try to install a CAM-ship as type 8, and the CAM-fix part of my Addon Patch will be ignored.

Anyone who wants to persist with the CAM-ship should download NYGM and see how it is implemented in the NYGM files. Look for 'M36B' in the campaign_RND.mis file, in the Sea folder (silenthunteriii\data\sea\M36B\M36B.cfg), and in the roster folder (silenthunteriii\data\roster\sea\british\). Finally, check the changes you have made by attempting to load your campaign_RND.mis file into Mission Editor. That will show any serious errors.

*************
Has anyone got any feedback on the how well (or badly) the asdic-fix-for-shallow-waters functions?

Stiebler.

[chrisglen]

Hi Stiebler, ive had variable results with it at the moment and am currently in a mid 1941 in the north channel trying to get away from a destroyer while in 80m waters. I have found its easier to brake contact in <50m but you have so much less room to maneuver.
I have also managed to attack a convoy in mid Atlantic in rough seas by slipping past an escort at periscope depth at a distance of 50m or less on silent running!
Does sea state play a part in detection?

[Fish In The Water]

The description by Fitzcarraldo and HW3 of a crash at about 70-75% of loading are classic symptoms of an error in the campaign_RND.mis file (or possibly the campaign_SCR.mis file, depends on their relative sizes, but usually the _RND.mis file is much larger than the _SCR.mis file). Since my patch does not change either of these two campaign files, it is certain that people are making errors in installing their CAM-ships.

Agreed. I've had no issues with the patch whatsoever and based on the descriptions it certainly does sound like a fault in the campaign layer. :yep:

[andqui]

I disabled the CAM ship mod, and did not change any of those ship's entries, and the game loads now. Guess I'll just live without that one fix.

[fitzcarraldo]

Agreed. I've had no issues with the patch whatsoever and based on the descriptions it certainly does sound like a fault in the campaign layer. :yep:

My campaign file is the "Wilhelmshaven v6 GWX Merged Campaign". In this campaign file, I added the AI subs of V16A H.sie patch.

I´ll test the patch without the CAM ships.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[fitzcarraldo]

...And I tested the patch without CAM ship option (unchecked): all work fine now, loading with Commander and the last Torpedo Failures patch by H.sie.

There is some problem with the CAM I don´t know...:hmmm:

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Stiebler]

@ChrisGlen:

Many thanks for your feedback on asdic detection in shallow waters.
I have also managed to attack a convoy in mid Atlantic in rough seas by slipping past an escort at periscope depth at a distance of 50m or less on silent running!
Does sea state play a part in detection? Yes it does, this is part of the original stock SH3 behaviour, and is correct.

@Fitzcarraldo, Andqui:
I am glad to read that you can now use my patch safely.

Stiebler.

[Rhodes]

Got CTD! I think I did everything right and enable the addon after the supplement fold of V16A3.
This part of Andqui post: "4. Copied the .cfg's for the three CAM ships, added the air group, and changed the unit type to 8" I did not do it, since I could not understand what is this step.
I experiment in desabling the fix of the cam ship but got also CTD! I thinking of deleting the cam ship files, since for me, it's not something important to the game. Should I go for it?
All the ctd were without sh3 commander.

[frau kaleun]

The .cfg file in the data\Sea folder for your CAM-ship(s) will have a line for Unit type, which needs to be 8 (not 100 or maybe 102 or whatever it is now).

I think you also need to go into the Roster folder and find the .cfg file(s) for the same ship(s) - IIRC this should only be the British roster - and change the Unit type in those files to 8. The only CAM-ship I have is M36B so that was the only one I changed but I changed it in both places.

OTOH, I don't know for sure if this is correct, I just know that I got an error from Mission Editor when I tried to open my campaign files after installing the Add-On files... which went away when I changed the Unit type in the appropriate Roster .cfg file as well. I have not loaded the game yet to confirm this, though.

[Stiebler]

Yes, that is correct.

Change the Unit Type to 8 for your CAM-ship* in 3 places:

1. In data\campaigns\campaign\campaign_RND.mis file (if that is where you have placed your CAM-ship*). In this file, 'Unit Type' is called simply 'Type='.
2. In data\sea\CAM-ship*.cfg
3. In data\roster\british\sea\CAM-Ship*.cfg.

(*Where "CAM-ship" refers to the actual ship you are using. It will normally be IABL's M36B ship.)

Then try to load your revised campaign_RND.mis file into Mission Editor. If it complains (or crashes), you haven't made the changes correctly.

Stiebler.


Stiebler.

[Rhodes]

Yes, that is correct.

Change the Unit Type to 8 for your CAM-ship* in 3 places:

1. In data\campaigns\campaign\campaign_RND.mis file (if that is where you have placed your CAM-ship*). In this file, 'Unit Type' is called simply 'Type='.

Stiebler.

POssibly my error, because I did not place anything in that file. Or I can not understand what you mean. I did look into it, but could find the cam-ship type.

[SquareSteelBar]

...I did look into it, but could find the cam-ship type.Look for M36B

[Rhodes]

Look for M36B

That was what I did and got the "did not find" message!

[SquareSteelBar]

In both files Campaign_RND.mis and Campaign_SCR.mis ?


Otherwise:
...If you do not have a CAM-ship in your installation, then my mod serves no purpose. Don't try to install a CAM-ship as type 8, and the CAM-fix part of my Addon Patch will be ignored...

[Rhodes]

In both files Campaign_RND.mis and Campaign_SCR.mis ?


Otherwise:

Yes, in the three files! But I have the M36B folder and etc!

[SquareSteelBar]

:hmmm:

I think there's something wrong with your NYGM installation.

Did you the steps listed here (http://www.subsim.com/mods1/nygm/)?
The correct Campaign_RND.mis is contained in NYGM3_New.7z and includes the M36B entries.


Extraction:

...
[RndGroup 64.RndUnit 49]
Class=M36B;;CAM-Ship
Type=8;;102
Origin=British
Side=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19380201
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=3
...

[Rhodes]

I am not a NYGM user, I am a GWX 3.0 user! But if so, GWX do have the m36b ship folder and cfg files.

[frau kaleun]

I use GWX also, so I'm curious to know if there's still something I need to change in the campaign files. I didn't make any changes there, just the ones to the .cfg files in the Roster and Sea folders. After that I didn't get the error when trying to open campaign files in Mission Editor, but I haven't loaded up the game yet so I want to be sure I've done everything I need to do. :hmmm:

[Rhodes]

Every file of the M36B that I found in the roster and sea folders I changed the type. I try to load a single mission with the cam fix enable and disable. CTD always. Or one needs to add something to the campaign files, and did miss that step or it is something else.

By the way Frau, do you have also a M35B folder above the M36B, in the sea folder?

[frau kaleun]

By the way Frau, do you have also a M35B folder above the M36B, in the sea folder?

I don't know, I'm on a different computer. I'll try to remember to check when I get home.

[Rhodes]

I don't know, I'm on a different computer. I'll try to remember to check when I get home.

I may not be important, it's a Empire-type Freighter!

The game folder roster\british has Air and Sea folders. The addon only has the Air folder. The game roster\british\sea has a m36b file with type=100 .

[frau kaleun]

The game folder roster\british has Air and Sea folders. The addon only has the Air folder.

I assume that's because the add-on is actually *adding* an entirely new air unit to the game (the CamHurricane) but not adding any new sea units. If you are using the CAM mod at all, you need to have a CAM-ship already present in your data\Sea folder and the British roster for sea units. The add-on is not going to add it, it is going to use the existing CAM-ship(s) already in your game.

I believe the M36B CAM-ship is included with GWX so if that's what you're using, you would already have it in the data\Sea folder and in the British roster. The unit type has to be changed where necessary on the existing CAM-Ship(s) in order for the mod to work correctly.

The game roster\british\sea has a m36b file with type=100 .

Correct, and that needs to be changed from 100 to 8 as noted above.

[SquareSteelBar]

That's it.

Did you miss this?
...Change the Unit Type to 8 for your CAM-ship* in 3 places:

1. In data\campaigns\campaign\campaign_RND.mis file (if that is where you have placed your CAM-ship*). In this file, 'Unit Type' is called simply 'Type='.
2. In data\sea\CAM-ship*.cfg
3. In data\roster\british\sea\CAM-Ship*.cfg.

(*Where "CAM-ship" refers to the actual ship you are using. It will normally be IABL's M36B ship.)...

[Rhodes]

The trouble is that I changed that file and got CTD again! So the trouble is else were!

[SquareSteelBar]

Look into the other countries' roster folders for M36B.cfg files; they've to be changed, too.


...I may not be important, it's a Empire-type Freighter!...Maybe you did confound M35B.cfg and M36B.cfg?

[Rhodes]

Maybe you did confound M35B.cfg and M36B.cfg?

No. I asked about the 35b folder because it could be also a cam ship or other cam ship, but it's not.

Only found the file in the british folder.

[SquareSteelBar]

Did you rename AI_Sensors_GWX.dat to AI_Sensors.dat and put it into Library folder?


I'm almost at my wits' end now... :doh:

[Rhodes]

Yes, I did.

Edit: well I manage to run the game with out CTD, I deleted the roster and sea folder from the addon and disable the cam fix. So the problem is in those cfg files or some conflit with them and other files in the game!

[Robin40]

Where can I download this mod from?...maybe I'm missing something, but I cannot find any link

Is this mod applicable to V16A4?

[SquareSteelBar]

Where can I download this mod from?...maybe I'm missing something, but I cannot find any link...Stiebler's sig

[Robin40]

Stiebler's sig

uh?:o

[Sepp von Ch.]

@ Robin40: http://www.subsim.com/mods1/nygm/ - point 9

[slipper]

Hi all,

I am also getting a ctd at about the 75% game load point, i am going to try and disable the cam ship as stated above.

Before i do i have one question about part d of the readme, it states

D. A subsidiary mod-folder Stiebler_Additional_files_V16A3 contains the following:
1. Two text files called ADD_to_your_... for your en_menu.txt/de_menu.txt files. (Just cut and paste them onto the bottom of your files, found in your silenthunteriii\data\menu folder.)
IMPORTANT - You must *also change* the existing contents of these en/de_menu.txt file entries to the texts show below:

566=Scuttling charges set! 10 minutes to abandon boat! Set U-boat to crash-dive!
2905=Abandon U-boat!
4809=Prepare to abandon U-boat!
4810=Prepare to abandon U-boat!
it does not seem that clear to me, this part
Two text files called ADD_to_your_... for your en_menu.txt/de_menu.txt files. (Just cut and paste them onto the bottom of your files, found in your silenthunteriii\data\menu folder.) seems to me to be exactly the same as this part

IMPORTANT - You must *also change* the existing contents of these en/de_menu.txt file entries to the texts show below:so the way i read it,it is asking me to do the same thing twice. Can anyone clarify please so i can rule this out of any conflicts i am having?

regards all

slipper

[Stiebler]

@Slipper:

"If given two conflicting orders, obey both." [Military saying.]

Seriously, carry out both sets of instructions.

Stiebler.

[slipper]

Stiebler

Thanks for the reply mate, but that was my point, if i carry out both sets of instructions then i am just repeating the exact same thing to the exact same files twice the way i read it. Is this correct? or am i missing something obvious? Sorry to be a pain in the ****, it's obviously me as no one else seems to be having any problem with this.

cheers

slipper

[SquareSteelBar]

uh?:oStiebler (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1785991&postcount=1)'s signature on the bottom of his posts [item 9]...

[Robin40]

Is Stiebler_Addon_for_V16A3. (Patch) to be enabled over h.sie's Supplement to V16A3? or has it to be enable alone, that is without h.sie's Supplement to V16A3?