Flickering grills on Super Turms IX

[frau kaleun]

Hi all,

Seems like I remember someone mentioning a "flickering" effect where the grills are on the new type IX tower included in Aces' Super Turms mod(s).

I've searched around and now I can't find the reference to it I think I remember, does anybody else remember it or know if there was ever any fix for it? I've got Super Turms v6 which appears to be the latest version and I hadn't looked at the IX before with this mod, and now I'm seeing the flickering where the grills are as well.

In fact when I zoom in a bit it looks almost like I can see "through" them to the moving ocean waves in the background on the opposite side of the boat and that's what is causing the flickering.

Anyhoo - if anybody remembers this issue and/or how it was being addressed or could be addressed, I'd much appreciate any info.

Thanks!

[Gerald]

Nothing that has happened to me, unfortunately I can not help you :hmmm:

[HW3]

I seem to remember reading that also. I do not remember where it was though.:hmmm:

[SquareSteelBar]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=183619&highlight=flicker

[frau kaleun]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=183619&highlight=flicker

Thanks, that's what I was looking for! I didn't realize it went all the way back to such an early version of the mod.

From Aces' reply on the issue:

Regarding the engine grills flickering I only get it from distance and I think it's a video issue. The texture is there in the file. You can freely edit this texture if you wish eg. move the grills apart, if so remember to re-do the Alpha channel. The texture is called "Turm9c1_Extra_Textures_Style1.tga" and if you edit it then remember to re-import it into all four of the supplied turm files for the different versions. Actually there is a gap b etween the textures.


I tinkered with the texture a bit already, but I still get the flicker.

I don't know what "Alpha channel" means though, is that a graphics thing or a 3D model thing?

Anybody have any luck eliminating this issue by editing the file somehow or am I just stuck with it?

[Volk2]

Anybody have any luck eliminating this issue by editing the file somehow or am I just stuck with it?

Unfortunately no. I tried, don't remember how, maybe I don't have enough knowledge. I have the same problem with emblems and this: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1664246&postcount=21

[TheDarkWraith]

You have two or more textures 'fighting' to be rendered in the same area with no blending enabled :yep:

[frau kaleun]

You have two or more textures 'fighting' to be rendered in the same area with no blending enabled :yep:

And the fix for that is....?

Okay, okay, blending, but I don't know what that refers to or how to enable it in this context. :D

[Gerald]

Hard to spell, your finger are affected by nicotine, yellow, they're also :smug:

[Myxale]

And the fix for that is....?

Okay, okay, blending, but I don't know what that refers to or how to enable it in this context. :D

Overlapping. Depending on the way they are displayed, it can happen that one texture covers up the other and the other returns the favor. All withing milliseconds.

Try a lover monitor res. I have had the same problem with KOTOR2.
I was told (along with a transparency problem i had in the game) that this is a newer GPU/driver problem and how they interpret those textures or channels. (especially the Alpha).

But honestly I know bugger all! So...don't quote me:O:

[frau kaleun]

Thanks for the info.

It's not a big enough annoyance to make me roll back my drivers or mess with the resolution. I was hoping it was something that could be dealt with by modding some of the game files involved. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Thanks for the info.

It's not a big enough annoyance to make me roll back my drivers or mess with the resolution. I was hoping it was something that could be dealt with by modding some of the game files involved. :hmmm:

I was thinking in terms of a candidate for most un....erm helpful post of the year a few #'s up :DL

[Madox58]

As TDW pointed out, it's 2 textures being rendered on one spot.
The Grills are a texture with an alpha channel. It's laid right on top of the original Turm texture so you have the 2 conflicting when rendered.

I'd think making a 3D object for the Grills and applying the Grill texture to that would solve the flickering if done right.

A quick way to create the grills would be to do a boolean operation on the Turm useing the texture as a placement guide for the cut.
:03:

[frau kaleun]

As TDW pointed out, it's 2 textures being rendered on one spot.
The Grills are a texture with an alpha channel. It's laid right on top of the original Turm texture.

Well that I can confirm from looking at the model preview.

I'd think making a 3D object for the Grills and applying the Grill texture to that would solve the flickering if done right.

I'm almost certain I have some idea of what you're talking about. And that frightens me. :D

A quick way to create the grills would be to do a boolean operation on the Turm useing the texture as a placement guide for the cut.
:03:

I WAS TOLD THERE WOULD BE NO MATH. :stare: :O:

[Madox58]

:hmmm:
I just cut the Grills out about 5 minutes ago and I didn't do no stinking math.
:haha:

[frau kaleun]

Then don't scare the nice lady with phrases like "boolean operation." :O:


So what you're doing is, cutting out a section of the turm that matches the area needed for the grills, using that to make a separate 3D object for the grills that exists in basically the same spot, and then applying the grills texture to that? Or am I completely not getting it?

[SquareSteelBar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jMhTMHxrr8

[Madox58]

So what you're doing is, cutting out a section of the turm that matches the area needed for the grills, using that to make a separate 3D object for the grills that exists in basically the same spot, and then applying the grills texture to that? Or am I completely not getting it?
Pretty much, yes.

There's a 3D mesh in the conning_high object that is used for the Grills now.

I selected that object and applied the texture so I could see the Grills.
Then created a long box that goes through both sides of that object and fits the front grill area.
Cloned that for the rear grills.
Did a boolean cut with the turm as object a, front box as object b, saved that result and then did the same to get the rear grill cut.
I now have 4 objects in the exact place with the grill texture so no uv's need redone.

Those would need a bit more work like maybe extruding a bit to seperate the surfaces some but it would reduce the flicker that way.
I have not actually re-done the Turm yet to test in-Game but it should work OK.

It may be better to punch the grills through the Turm also.
That would remove the mesh area totally and also solve the issue.
Maybe even better.

[frau kaleun]

Pretty much, yes.

There's a 3D mesh in the conning_high object that is used for the Grills now.

I selected that object and applied the texture so I could see the Grills.
Then created a long box that goes through both sides of that object and fits the front grill area.
Cloned that for the rear grills.
Did a boolean cut with the turm as object a, front box as object b, saved that result and then did the same to get the rear grill cut.
I now have 4 objects in the exact place with the grill texture so no uv's need redone.

Those would need a bit more work like maybe extruding a bit to seperate the surfaces some

:hmmm:

:hmmm:

:hmmm:

http://www.myteespot.com/images/Images_d/d_8075.jpg

:O:

I only understood about half of that, it may make more sense when I can get home and actually look at stuff.


It may be better to punch the grills through the Turm also.
That would remove the mesh area totally and also solve the issue.
Maybe even better.

Sounds like less work. Where's the fun in that? :O:

[frau kaleun]

I only understood about half of that, it may make more sense when I can get home and actually look at stuff.



Aaaaaaand....I got nothin'.

I can't even find what you're talking about here:

There's a 3D mesh in the conning_high object that is used for the Grills now.


:damn:

When I look at the model preview in S3D I can see where the texture for the grills is, they show up in place on the turm. But I keep exporting the 3D models and when I look at them in MM3D I don't see anything that corresponds to their location that I can do anything with. :doh:

[Gerald]

Not again....:88) yes mam,:rock:

[Anvart]

I've never seen Aces turms... but i can suppose two reasons for flicker...
1) The coincidence of the surface of Grill's mesh with the surface of the turm's mesh...
2) The use of the material with alpha blending ...
For the first case you can zoom in on the mesh with the texture of the grill on 0.5% - 0.7%...
For the second case you can use 3D model of the grill.

[frau kaleun]

I think I found this:

There's a 3D mesh in the conning_high object that is used for the Grills now.

So, that's something.

[Gerald]

I think I found this:



So, that's something. Congratulations on your progress on this topic, free drinks all night, :rock:

[frau kaleun]

Lookie what I did!

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6956/grills.jpg

I made a thing from the thing with the thing and applied the thing!


I just don't know what to DO with the thing. :O:

[Gerald]

Lookie what I did!

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6956/grills.jpg

I made a thing from the thing with the thing and applied the thing!


I just don't know what to DO with the thing. :O: What is that thing? Similar to part of an air wing that has blown down from a tree, :woot:

[frau kaleun]

What is that thing? Similar to part of an air wing that has blown down from a tree, :woot:

Did it land on your head? If not then I still need to fine-tune the trajectory. :O:

[Gerald]

^:haha:

[Madox58]

Nice.
Next thing you know you'll be useing words like.....
boolean, quaternion, vertex, polygon, etc.
(And NO! polygon does not refer to a missing bird!)
:haha:

[frau kaleun]

Nice.
Next thing you know you'll be useing words like.....
boolean, quaternion, vertex, polygon, etc.
(And NO! polygon does not refer to a missing bird!)


So far I have copied the two "groups" where the textures are piled on top of each other and pasted them into a second MM3D window and applied the grills texture only to the first group so I can see where the grills are. Now I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to make holes in the other group underneath the grills. :06:

And no I think my vocabulary will probably remain firmly rooted in the "dot, line, and thing" category. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Nice.
Next thing you know you'll be useing words like.....
boolean, quaternion, vertex, polygon, etc.
(And NO! polygon does not refer to a missing bird!)
:haha:

It would appear the background noise is totally out of one's depth :DL

[Fish In The Water]

I made a thing from the thing with the thing and applied the thing!

Very nice thing-a-ma-jig! Now all you have to do is add a doodad and a watch-a-ma-call-it and then put it in the doohickey. :O:

(That's technical talk for whatever it is you're trying to do)... :D

[Gerald]

Very nice thing-a-ma-jig! Now all you have to do is add a doodad and a watch-a-ma-call-it and then put it in the doohickey. :O:

(That's technical talk for whatever it is you're trying to do)... :D No one knows, :o

[frau kaleun]

Very nice thing-a-ma-jig! Now all you have to do is add a doodad and a watch-a-ma-call-it and then put it in the doohickey. :O:

(That's technical talk for whatever it is you're trying to do)... :D

I don't even know what it is I'm trying to do. Half the terms being thrown around I don't even understand in the context of what I'm trying to do - all I've got is a program I barely understand in which I click on things to see what happens and then try to figure out whether or not what happens appears to correspond to some process that's been mentioned as a possible fix. :damn:

[Madox58]

No one knows, :o

Shucks!
The goal is to make this
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6956/grills.jpg

into this
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/back_grills.jpg

Misfit will do the boolean operation. Did it today to make sure.
But you'll then need to delete faces that are not needed.
Misfit does a weird subtraction compared to 3D Max.
:doh:

[Gerald]

:doh:

[Fish In The Water]

Shucks!
The goal is to make this


into this


Misfit will do the boolean operation. Did it today to make sure.
But you'll then need to delete faces that are not needed.
Misfit does a weird subtraction compared to 3D Max.
:doh:

And if we offer you a cookie could you possibly provide a step-by-step explanation? :hmmm:

Mmmm, cookies are good...http://www.en.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/just_cuz/JC_cookies.gif

[frau kaleun]

And if we offer you a cookie could you possibly provide a step-by-step explanation? :hmmm:



At this point I'd even consider making someone a sandwich. :O:

[Madox58]

:nope:
I was REALLY hopeing someone would whine because I haven't posted the objects to use so I could say this........

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.
Try to teach a man to fish and he'll gripe at you for not just giving him the fish!"

But you all are to smart for me and saw it comeing didn't you?
:haha:

I'll do a step-by-step thingy (To use terms Frau is at ease with) this weekend.
:yep:
It will give me a break from some codeing for another Game I'm working on.
:O:

It will be done in Misfit as anyone useing 3D Max probably already knows how to do it.

Misfit does it pretty well. It just does it in a weird way from what I'm use too.
And takes a few extra steps to get it done properly.
:88)

[frau kaleun]

THANK YOU. :woot: :rock:

It's not that I don't want to know how to do it myself, it's just the constant frustration of not knowing what command in the program does what and having to figure all of that out by trial and error in order to do something that I know would be fairly simple if I had any real clue what process to follow. The Help contents aren't much help when you don't already speak the lingo. After a few hours of "maybe this... no... well maybe this... no... well maybe this... oh crap now I have to start over again" it starts to get real old real fast.

I mean, fixing Mr. No Left Foot was a piece of cake in comparison. All I had to do was delete one guy and duplicate another and move the duplicate into the empty spot. I didn't have to actually make somebody a new foot. :haha:

[Gerald]

We are eagerly awaiting the result, :D

[Madox58]

THANK YOU. :woot: :rock:



You are most Welcome. (When I'm done)
:yep:

I know the frustration all to well myself!
I had to start useing 3D Max for my business about the time I joined SubSim.
Only thing I could do was open a file and drool whilst my eyes glazed over and the bunny song played in my head!
http://www.wimp.com/bunnysong

:har:

[HW3]

and the bunny song played in my head!

:k_rofl:

[Jimbuna]

We are eagerly awaiting the result, :D

You'll get it....already sorted...no need for more ballast :03:

[Madox58]

We are eagerly awaiting the result, :D

Oh crap! There it goes again!
http://www.wimp.com/bunnysong
:DL

[Gerald]

My ears, :o

[Madox58]

That song will stick in your head now!!
:har:

You just wait and see.
:03:

[frau kaleun]

At least I only clicked on it once. :haha:






I'm washing my brain out with Beethoven as we speak. :smug:

[Madox58]

You will be surprised how often that tune will pop into your head!!
:yep:

I hear it alot when the Wife talks about her friends.
:haha:

Don't tell her I said that!!
:o

[frau kaleun]

Don't tell her I said that!!
:o

That will cost you a walk-through on the grill thingy AND a corrected 7b mask thingy. :rotfl2:

[Madox58]

I need to go through the rules here at SubSim.
:hmmm:

We can't use naughty words but We can use Black Mail?
:o

:har:

[frau kaleun]

Well I couldn't use Chain Mail on account of you've already ruined it for everybody else. :O:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Thanks ALOT privateer! :stare:

Now I'm gonna be rolling all over town in my ambulance tomorrow... and all I'll hear when we switch on the lights and sirens is:

NUMNUMNUMNUMNUMNUMNUM... NUMNUMNUMNUMNUMNUMNUM!

GRRRRrrrrrrrr! :stare::stare::stare::damn:

[Madox58]

Heck Kpt.,
It's OK for that situation.
You only need to worry if the Wife starts talking and you hear it!!
:rotfl2:

Remember the first rule of 'Wife talking to Husband'.
The very thing that the Bunny Song covers up WILL BE what She quizzes you on!!
:o

[Fish In The Water]

I'll do a step-by-step thingy (To use terms Frau is at ease with) this weekend. :yep:

Cheers mate, and thanks for taking the time to help! :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Heck Kpt.,
It's OK for that situation.
You only need to worry if the Wife starts talking and you hear it!!
:rotfl2:

Remember the first rule of 'Wife talking to Husband'.
The very thing that the Bunny Song covers up WILL BE what She quizzes you on!!
:o

Have responded to your PM....no problem.


Reminded me to move a lot of stuff into the bargain :03:

[Madox58]

I tried cutting the Grills with Misfit.
Although it will do booleans, it won't do the cut on the Turm without re-uving the cuts after alot of faces deleteing.
Now I remember why I don't use Misfit much anymore.
:nope:

I'll upload the Grills I cut with 3D Max and you can play with those.
You got me to do the work after all Frau!!
:o
You happy now?
:haha:

[frau kaleun]

I tried cutting the Grills with Misfit.
Although it will do booleans, it won't do the cut on the Turm without re-uving the cuts after alot of faces deleteing.
Now I remember why I don't use Misfit much anymore.
:nope:

I'll upload the Grills I cut with 3D Max and you can play with those.
You got me to do the work after all Frau!!
:o
You happy now?
:haha:

Eeeeeeexcellent....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/100276794_548c83c4eb.jpg

:haha:

Thanks again for all the assistance. :yeah:

[Madox58]

Here's the obj and mtl files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?pl664vtpoc68apo

Delete the Grill object in Ace's Turm and replace it with these.
Note that We may have exported with different settings for S3D!
If it does not place right let me know and I'll check my settings so you can import it properly.

:salute:

I'll get the Mask done sooner or later also.
I need to finish some UV adjustments on it yet.
Now Nancy never needs to know anything after that right?
:haha:

[frau kaleun]

Here's the obj and mtl files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?pl664vtpoc68apo

Delete the Grill object in Ace's Turm and replace it with these.
Note that We may have exported with different settings for S3D!
If it does not place right let me know and I'll check my settings so you can import it properly.

:salute:



:rock:

Will start looking at it pronto. Danke sehr, mein Herr!

I'll get the Mask done sooner or later also.
I need to finish some UV adjustments on it yet.
Now Nancy never needs to know anything after that right?
:haha:

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/5/18/0b7a3296-98c4-436f-a5a3-5cc06a8435f3.jpg

[Fish In The Water]

Well, well, it looks like FK will be rustling up a sandwich after all... :D :O:

[frau kaleun]

http://www.peanutbutterfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/peanut-butter-and-jelly.jpg

[frau kaleun]

Well, sadly the new grills look fine up close in the game but from a distance the flicker is no better. :wah:

I do appreciate all the help and effort on everyone's part, though. :yeah:

[Madox58]

Of course they will still flicker.
We only cut them down to a smaller 3D mesh so far.
The reason I said you could "play with them" is that you will need to adjust them a bit.
:yep:

I'm not sure how Misfit will handle extruding them....
But when I get some time free? I'll extrude them a small amount and do the adjustments to the final objects by detaching faces so we don't have a weird effect that many see but don't understand.
(Has to do with the Game smoothing while rendering)
:03:

A small movement away from the surface of the Turm will reduce the flickering as the surfaces will not be so closely overlaid.
:88)

[frau kaleun]

Of course they will still flicker.
We only cut them down to a smaller 3D mesh so far.
The reason I said you could "play with them" is that you will need to adjust them a bit.
:yep:

I *knew* you were going to say that. :O:

I did try playing with them a bit but I have not had time to try anything out yet in the game.

[Madox58]

Can I have the sandwich without jelly please?
:D

[frau kaleun]

Can I have the sandwich without jelly please?
:D

No, because IT PUTS THE JELLY ON THE SANDWICH. :O:

[Anvart]

Of course they will still flicker.
We only cut them down to a smaller 3D mesh so far.
...
A small movement away from the surface of the Turm will reduce the flickering ...
Look (order of actions):
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1785129&postcount=22
... or you do not understand what i mean... as frau too...? :haha:

[Madox58]

Understood perfectly Mate.
:03:

But Frau and others are trying to learn a little 3D stuff also.
So I'm trying to help ease them into that area.
:yep:

Adjusting as you pointed out still leaves a greater mesh that has no use,
so additional polys are slammed into the Game that are never rendered.
1 + 1 over a great mod list = possible hammertime at some point.
:haha:

[Madox58]

No, because IT PUTS THE JELLY ON THE SANDWICH. :O:


CRAP!
:nope:

[Anvart]

Understood perfectly Mate.
:03:
...
Adjusting as you pointed out still leaves a greater mesh ...

:DL
I talked about order of actions that will bring the desired result.
... item 2... without alpha blending and large mesh... with useing instancing.