When SH4 become monotonous

[Armistead]

I seldom play anymore, for me the game has become
monotonous. It feels like doing the same thing over and over. I think
the biggest issue for me is if you play long enough you basically know exactly how the AI will react. My evasion tactics are usually the same.
Seems I can always sink unrealistic tonnage. I went as far to edit most escorts to elite in RSRD, but take the large TF I attacked last night, sunk 3 carriers the first attack.

So lately I'm trying to mod for myself a better game in hopes of making it more realistic.

The biggest flaw I find in the game is the AI's response when it senses you, almost always the group slows down and the evasive zigs are so short they don't matter. In reality the group would head off at top speed.
What CV or BB would slow down when under attack? I'm searching and playing with settings, but have yet to determine what causes a group to respond this way. Sometimes convoys will break up in different directions, rare, but once is awhile a TF will keep speed or even gain it....

Right now my goal is to make the sub more fragile, which I've done with damage zones and crush depth. Also playing with crew health, should be more fragile.

I'm playing with many factors, in some ways weakening the AI, in others increasing. The goal to be if you do things right, you can pull off attacks, but if not, you're in for big trouble.

I think the balance lies somewhere between RFB and TMO.

Just wondering if you guys feel the same, if so, what changes would you like.

[razark]

I seldom play anymore, for me the game has become
monotonous. It feels like doing the same thing over and over.
I know this feeling very well. My problem isn't the AI so much, it's the contacts on/off. With them on, it's too easy. With them off, it's too much of a chore. I find myself completing a few patrols, and then starting over. It just never has the right level of fun that I'm looking for.

[Diopos]

Armistead,
it is the natural course of things, isn't it?
Good thing you're trying to mod the game, hope you find it interesting!

The problem is we are battling a program not a human opponent. As I started wargaming with Avalon Hill boardgames (back in the 80s) against human opponents,I regard solitaire computer gaming always as a bad compromise.

Anyway always keep in mind the "fun factor" even in moding.

.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I still play , but not nearly as often as I used to. Right now, it's been about 2 days since I fired it up. Certainly, my work schedule has something to do with this but even on my off days, I usually will play for only a couple of hours a day instead of the all-day affair it used to be. I believe monotony is inevitable in all routine, especially the nonobligatory or surrogate ones. I'm sure that I too will eventually fall by the SHIV wayside, but for now, I trudge along at a snail's pace of endurance instead of the headlong plunge of interest that once preceded me.

In the meantime, I'll probably continue to sort my priorities and continue to immerse myself into the vast Pacific while my interest still lingers.

[Matthew_T_Sherman]

Well, SH4 is still a new toy to me but I can't help thinking that if the war had somehow managed to go on for a decade or more with no advances past a certain point, the surviving sub skippers may have felt the same way.

Has anyone considered a "SH4: Pacific Wolves 1946" variant that could potentially extend the war to that year or beyond? Perhaps an alternate history in which the Pacific theater waged on after the demise of Germany and the setback of the development of the U.S. atomic bomb. The U.S. could put to use captured type XXI boats while the Japanese managed to produce the I-500 in quantity but even greater advances in ASW would make things just as challenging.

Wait ... that's silly. Before long there would be submarine launched missiles if the world's economy survived two more years of war. Boring.

[razark]

Has anyone considered a "SH4: Pacific Wolves 1946" variant that could potentially extend the war to that year or beyond? Perhaps an alternate history in which the Pacific theater waged on after the demise of Germany and the setback of the development of the U.S. atomic bomb.
By the end of the war, the submarines were largely running out of targets. Extending the war past the end would really serve little purpose, unless you could come up with something else for the boats to do, such as launching cruise missiles or landing raiding parties.

[Matthew_T_Sherman]

By the end of the war, the submarines were largely running out of targets. Extending the war past the end would really serve little purpose, unless you could come up with something else for the boats to do, such as launching cruise missiles or landing raiding parties.

Well that confirms ....

Wait ... that's silly. Before long there would be submarine launched missiles if the world's economy survived two more years of war. Boring.

I'm not sure how to post entirely serious.:shucks:

[I'm goin' down]

:yawn:


Before falling asleep, try Map Contacts Disabled and
TMO2;
TMO Update 20 to 22;
OTC for TMO 2.2;
OTC Camera for 1280x1024 (or whatever is appropriate for your boat);
OTC Realistic Scopes for 5 to 3 TMO (or whatever is appropriate for your boat);
OTC Radar from Start for TMO;
OTC Tokko's Revenge for TMO;
Damage Caused by fires by TheDarkWraith; and
TheDarkWraith DC Water Disturbance v2 0.

Come back when you complete your first mission, which will be sometime next year.:know:

[EricW]

I think it gets boring when you start to know exactly what you can get away with....I can look at a situation on radar or plot, check the weather and tell you whats going to happen 99% of the time, before I do it.

We know how far the AI can see/hear.....mostly.

We know our torps are going to run true, except the very rare circular
run (I've seen 3)

We know if we crash dive that we can pull out of it....every time.

We know if we order periscope depth that we won't keep rising and broach.

I LIKE the fact that you can take a Balao past 600ft and start to lose it(depth control).....I think Ducimus called it a bug in TMO, but I think that possibility should exist for every sub that goes past 300-400 ft......

I'm on patrol 17 on my current campaign- 80+ ships down, well over half a million tons(not exactly historical, eh :doh:) -I haven't reloaded games or "cheated" with the cams in any way, and I only had one time where I took damage (from a deck gun :oops:).

I think the last time I got REALLY worked up and adrenalized was around Patrol 11-12. I got a message to intercept a BB group and actually found it :rock: BUT......with flat, calm sea conditions, clear and 2 hours until dusk.

I thought making an attack was a suicide run. BUT, I also thought that any real sub captain would consider it his duty to try.....so I sank a Kongo and stayed up until 2 am making my escape from the escorts who wouldn't give up, but never did hurt me. I liked that one, I expected to get sunk and I got away.

Sinking a ship should be a MAJOR accomplishment.....that Kongo was a big deal to me, my first dozen using manual targeting were big deals. TMO made it exciting for a long time, but I'm pretty much getting the hang of it. Good thing for me that its almost RL hunting season and I'm ready for a break......I'll start back up fresh and get my ass sunk.....

[CapnScurvy]

As I started wargaming with Avalon Hill boardgames (back in the 80s) against human opponents, I regard solitaire computer gaming always as a bad compromise.


Avalon Hill, boy what I wouldn't give to have some of my old board games back. I started playing in the mid 60's (yep, I'm THAT old). Their version of Midway was my favorite, although D-Day was a good one, so was their Jutland (interesting concept, you didn't have a "board" to play on, you used the entire table. There was something like a "ruler" that determined movement and range finding). A couple of neighborhood friends played them with me, days would pass before completing one.


Yes, solitaire gaming is nothing like an opponent who pulls out a play that is barely in the rule book (I remember arguing for hours over rules), and takes out a couple of your CV's before you can say Holy Avalon Hill!!


========


Thanks "I'm goin' down" for the shout-out about OTC.

When I added the optional mod "Tokko's Revenge" I tried to make the AI hard enough you would want to say "UNCLE" before completing a years service. I didn't rely on making "additional" planes (actually there is less than the stock game), but I increased the planes visual detection, increased the modifiers that create the possibility of an attack, and strengthened the payloads they carry to make you sorry you ever thought of poking your head out to look around. I did the same for the enemy ship AI, harder hitting depth charges, relentless pursuit, greater visual detection. Again with the goal of making it increasing harder to complete the tasks that have become boring to the experienced gamer. Did I succeed? Only time will tell.

[EricW]

[QUOTE=


Thanks "I'm goin' down" for the shout-out about OTC.

When I added the optional mod "Tokko's Revenge" I tried to make the AI hard enough you would want to say "UNCLE" before completing a years service. I didn't rely on making "additional" planes (actually there is less than the stock game), but I increased the planes visual detection, increased the modifiers that create the possibility of an attack, and strengthened the payloads they carry to make you sorry you ever thought of poking your head out to look around. I did the same for the enemy ship AI, harder hitting depth charges, relentless pursuit, greater visual detection. Again with the goal of making it increasing harder to complete the tasks that have become boring to the experienced gamer. Did I succeed? Only time will tell.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know that you got a TMO compatible version done up....
I'm trying it.....:yeah:. Soon.

[Torplexed]

Avalon Hill, boy what I wouldn't give to have some of my old board games back. I started playing in the mid 60's (yep, I'm THAT old). Their version of Midway was my favorite, although D-Day was a good one, so was their Jutland (interesting concept, you didn't have a "board" to play on, you used the entire table. There was something like a "ruler" that determined movement and range finding). A couple of neighborhood friends played them with me, days would pass before completing one.

I've still got a few AH games living in cupboards, although I didn't start until the late '70s. The simpler games were usually my favorites. Anything that involved memorizing a book of rules like some of their later titles just seem to degenerate into tedium to play.

[I'm goin' down]

And then there were those of us who put baking soda inside the subs in our bathtubs .... But that story is for another day.

I think the game modded to TMO as I have set forth above is friggin' impossible. Typical scenario: contact at 250 degrees, long range; Search radar screen for contacts using 32K yd. scope--no contacts blips within radar range; 5 minutes later blip spotted on radar and crew announces "aircraft spotted;" Order boat to dive to periscope depth; Plane attacks; Plane departs; Surface the boat.
This repeats itself several times as the sky is crawling with planes. Radar is now my good friend, for without it, my boat is going down.

When I spot a TF/convoy the escorts are ready to pounce.

It takes a long time to run a mission, and I haven't completed one yet. Currently, I am off the coast of Japan, have sunk one merchant, fired on a fishing boat, been damaged by air attacks twice, and sunk (and replayed the mission*) once.:hmmm:

* trying to sneak into Tokyo Bay when your battery is low is not a good idea, I was unfortunate to discover.

[Armistead]

I'm using OTC since it came out for TMO, great mod for sure, but doesn't deal with my AI issues in campaign.

I've made several tough single missions that are fun, but I'm more concerned with campaign, so I'm trying to write them into RSRD as special missions, one a recon of Truk...so far impossible for me to complete and I know what will happen.

I tweaked and played some last night....I think to get the game more like I would like I would have to rewrite the entire campaign.

[CptChacal]

What you guys need is Destroyer Command on multiplayer...
... if it worked with SH4.

[subcpo]

I seldom play anymore, for me the game has become
monotonous. It feels like doing the same thing over and over.

LOL sounds like the real thing :D

[Ducimus]

I seldom play anymore, for me the game has become
monotonous. It feels like doing the same thing over and over. I think
the biggest issue for me is if you play long enough you basically know exactly how the AI will react. My evasion tactics are usually the same.


You know there's a reason why i put in TMO's loading screen message, "Find'em, Chase'em, Sink'em." The main reason, aside from historical rhetoric, is because that's the entire game in a nut shell, for all three SH titles.

Find, chase, sink, Ad nauseam.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=182479

[Sailor Steve]

Make that all five. The early ones were no different, nor was AOTD. It's the nature of the beast.

[Bubblehead1980]

Well I've made it more interesting by adding some traffic and enemy ASW patrols.For example, my last patrol was in area G1 off Tawi Tawi in June 1944, much as Harder did on her legendary 5th patrol where she sunk 5 destroyers.I added some DD's on patrol and a patrol plane.I hunted in the area, caught the IJN carrier force leaving for the Philippine Sea(as in RL) on 12 June I believe it was.I tried to close for a shot but was only able to send a contact reported.A DD closed in and I in the Harder tradition took he ron.I fired a down the throat shot from 600 yards, which hit and destroyed.I went on to sink five more destroyers over a 3 week time frame.Most were victims of the down the throat shot.I made contact with a convoy, sank a tanker but was kept down for 19 hours game time and never able to regain contact.

I found a Taiyo Escort carrier with a lone Kamikaze DD in the Celebes Sea heading for Sibutu Passage, sank the the carrier with last two bow fish.Tried a down the throat shot on the DD as it closed but the fish ran deep and hit a prop blowing it off.A follow up attack after dark resulted in her sinking with my last fish (stern tube) from 2100 yards.I headed home.

I added patrols to the Lombok Strait which was patroled in RL and had to race around the fast moving and oft course changing patrols, which added some excitement otw home.

I think i will try OTC soon and see what I think.Glad able to make some changes to keep it fun.Hope you are able to as well.

I wish lifeguard duty and other special missions would come up more, ive never had this in RSRD.

[Ducimus]

Well I've made it more interesting by adding......


Personally, i can think of a lot of things that would make things more interesting. Trouble is, when your making a mod you intend to publish, as a modification to a simulation, your hands are somewhat tied to historical details.

The only way i personally can really let the creative juices flow, is to toss the history book right out the window completely. But you can't do that here, and even if you did, hardly anyone would touch your work because it would be labeled as "gamey".

[Bubblehead1980]

Personally, i can think of a lot of things that would make things more interesting. Trouble is, when your making a mod you intend to publish, as a modification to a simulation, your hands are somewhat tied to historical details.

The only way i personally can really let the creative juices flow, is to toss the history book right out the window completely. But you can't do that here, and even if you did, hardly anyone would touch your work because it would be labeled as "gamey".


I understand, actually TMO alone is fine but I run RSRD so have the historical battles etc but it does lack some things such as ASW patrols etc so I added some in addition to some traffic where it is lacking and should be but it stays in line with RSRD.

[Ducimus]

I understand...

Do you? :O:

If i was to touch modding at all right now, i would ditch the history book entirely, and make up my own war.

Fallout universe is a nice backdrop I think.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_intro

So the first thing i would do, is recreate that fictional war with China. This would give me the artistic liberty to create and script whatever i wanted as a campaign. The only two things that im aware of that would HAVE to happen is the chinese invasion of alaksa, and American ports in Canada.

Having hashed out the rough campaign work, that would have copious amounts of missions other then "sink massive tonnage" (you know.. all those missions you don't normally get to do), then id take the German side of SH4, and bastardize it to appear American. Reason is, can rehash the grid map to be whatever you wanted, and player special abilities are only available for the german side. On top of that you ahve 6 ranks of progression instead of only 3.

Then id take that nifty type 21 model, and have lots of fun tinkering with it. Make it perform as realistic as possible, using the orginal type 21 specs and maybe some GUPPY specs. Possibly even mess with the BS experimental propulsion system that was never used in battle, maybe even rework it to appear to be nuclear.

Then i could go balls out on the ASW aspect. Nope, no longer would i be limited to (this ship can't have Hedge hogs, and that ship can't have Y guns and this other ship can't have K guns). How now i could arrange it however i like, and i like magnfiicent, perfectly laid patterns of charges.

Planes? Can do whatever i like, or what is feasible for the fiction of the "time period".

Sky's pretty much the limit.

Of course, it would be a crap ton of work, and in the end, id probably be the only one who thought it was cool.

[kylesplanet]

I take long breaks between careers, usually a couple of months or more. Once I start getting ready to start my career, I start diving back into that time period through movies, old radio and books. I guess I play differently than most. Its not just sinking ships for me, its the entire journey. From leaving the harbor to battles to finally returning.
I like to pick up Silent Victory to remind me what all was going on around the time I'm sailing. It takes me a long time to play a complete career (if I'm successful) and by the time the wars end comes around I'm ready for it to be over but after a break from it, I'm usually anxious for another.
I know I've certainly got my value out of it because I've played it more hours than I care to admit. :arrgh!:

[kylesplanet]

Do you? :O:

If i was to touch modding at all right now, i would ditch the history book entirely, and make up my own war.

Fallout universe is a nice backdrop I think.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_intro

So the first thing i would do, is recreate that fictional war with China. This would give me the artistic liberty to create and script whatever i wanted as a campaign. The only two things that im aware of that would HAVE to happen is the chinese invasion of alaksa, and American ports in Canada.

Having hashed out the rough campaign work, that would have copious amounts of missions other then "sink massive tonnage" (you know.. all those missions you don't normally get to do), then id take the German side of SH4, and bastardize it to appear American. Reason is, can rehash the grid map to be whatever you wanted, and player special abilities are only available for the german side. On top of that you ahve 6 ranks of progression instead of only 3.

Then id take that nifty type 21 model, and have lots of fun tinkering with it. Make it perform as realistic as possible, using the orginal type 21 specs and maybe some GUPPY specs. Possibly even mess with the BS experimental propulsion system that was never used in battle, maybe even rework it to appear to be nuclear.

Then i could go balls out on the ASW aspect. Nope, no longer would i be limited to (this ship can't have Hedge hogs, and that ship can't have Y guns and this other ship can't have K guns). How now i could arrange it however i like, and i like magnfiicent, perfectly laid patterns of charges.

Planes? Can do whatever i like, or what is feasible for the fiction of the "time period".

Sky's pretty much the limit.

Of course, it would be a crap ton of work, and in the end, id probably be the only one who thought it was cool.

I don't know Ducimus that sounds pretty darn cool to me. :D

[I'm goin' down]

Yep, sailing down the Great Wall eating Mu Shu Pork and Pot Stickers sounds like a winner to me.

[Diablo2]

Id play it..

[I'm goin' down]

toss in an order of egg rolls, too. :D

[razark]

Looks like you've got some support. When's the release?

[I'm goin' down]

A most creative use of the possessive. Impressive for a skipper!:up:

[timmyg00]

Do you? :O:

If i was to touch modding at all right now, i would ditch the history book entirely, and make up my own war.

Fallout universe is a nice backdrop I think.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_intro

So the first thing i would do, is recreate that fictional war with China. This would give me the artistic liberty to create and script whatever i wanted as a campaign. The only two things that im aware of that would HAVE to happen is the chinese invasion of alaksa, and American ports in Canada.

Having hashed out the rough campaign work, that would have copious amounts of missions other then "sink massive tonnage" (you know.. all those missions you don't normally get to do), then id take the German side of SH4, and bastardize it to appear American. Reason is, can rehash the grid map to be whatever you wanted, and player special abilities are only available for the german side. On top of that you ahve 6 ranks of progression instead of only 3.

Then id take that nifty type 21 model, and have lots of fun tinkering with it. Make it perform as realistic as possible, using the orginal type 21 specs and maybe some GUPPY specs. Possibly even mess with the BS experimental propulsion system that was never used in battle, maybe even rework it to appear to be nuclear.

Then i could go balls out on the ASW aspect. Nope, no longer would i be limited to (this ship can't have Hedge hogs, and that ship can't have Y guns and this other ship can't have K guns). How now i could arrange it however i like, and i like magnfiicent, perfectly laid patterns of charges.

Planes? Can do whatever i like, or what is feasible for the fiction of the "time period".

Sky's pretty much the limit.

Of course, it would be a crap ton of work, and in the end, id probably be the only one who thought it was cool. DOOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIT

:03:

[Jeff1959]

I understand about how simulation games can become monotonous. I enjoy different types of games, like Civilization series. I reached a point where I can destroy the rest of the computer civilizations and advance quickly in the game.

I've gotten bored with EA Sports baseball and football for the same reason.

I am new enough to Silent Hunter IV that I am still playing vanilla, and struggling to find success. Too often I can't even finish the single missions successfully.

Jeff

[0rpheus]

DOOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIT

:03:

+1 :yeah:

[magic452]

I understand about how simulation games can become monotonous. I enjoy different types of games, like Civilization series. I reached a point where I can destroy the rest of the computer civilizations and advance quickly in the game.

I've gotten bored with EA Sports baseball and football for the same reason.

I am new enough to Silent Hunter IV that I am still playing vanilla, and struggling to find success. Too often I can't even finish the single missions successfully.

Jeff

Enjoy the learning experience. :know: I think that is what this thread is really about. Once you know everything it looses some of the fun.

Welcome to the boat mate :salute:
Magic

[Armistead]

I understand about how simulation games can become monotonous. I enjoy different types of games, like Civilization series. I reached a point where I can destroy the rest of the computer civilizations and advance quickly in the game.

I've gotten bored with EA Sports baseball and football for the same reason.

I am new enough to Silent Hunter IV that I am still playing vanilla, and struggling to find success. Too often I can't even finish the single missions successfully.

Jeff


Overall I've probably got more playability out of this game than any other AI game, but only thanks to mods.....

Guess I should be careful not to be a complainer, probably my all time favorite game, just needs something different for me.

[TBear]

For me its more about the "end game" In SH series you realy dont change anything, at most you end up as top commander. I enjoy history, but for me it is almost cheating when you know who are where at what time and year.

What i do should have an impact. if i go out and sink 100k in each mission it should have an impact. This is unfortently the dilema of most ww2 games. In one way or the other they want to have the "correct" winner, and therefore any axis succes will be killed towards the end.

In IL2 1946 i was apart of a campaign, and we (japanese side) actualy began to make an impact and the allied lossed some ships and in general we stopped the invasion of malaya. What happned? well the allied pilots began to throw the "history" card and we quit if this will stand and we Japanese pilots was forced to follow history, even though we where winning...(3 missions from a second attack on PH)

Personaly i belive that if a players actions have an impact of the war, it should be so. History are set with nails, a game shouldnt. I like Japanese subs and planes, why should i be punished for that as a gamer?

[Sailor Steve]

Some of us feel just the opposite about impact, but since it's opinion anyway, there should be the choice to play it either way. Options are always good.

[Arlo]

Some of us feel just the opposite about impact, but since it's opinion anyway, there should be the choice to play it either way. Options are always good.

Women! Where's the women between patrols! Pearl women of the evening or Tahitian sirens beckoning to the boat as we putter by? What happened to the porn mod? Where's my porn mod? Don't make me pause the game!

:03:

[Daniel Prates]

Women! Where's the women between patrols! Pearl women of the evening or Tahitian sirens beckoning to the boat as we putter by? What happened to the porn mod? Where's my porn mod? Don't make me pause the game!

:03:

Ha! Thats all we needed, an universal game 'piling-up' mega junction mod. You could anchor your sub near tokio, and exit it only to become "reverend ray mccall" from "call of juarez", and starting your ass-kicking defeat of the entire japanese empire.

[I'm goin' down]

:yawn:

[Arlo]

:yawn: - 'Meow'

:03: