SH Modding. Some things must be said - open minded

[urfisch]

If you are a passioned and maybe also a long term member, or moderator of this Silent Hunter modding community, take your time to read this carefully.

I am really upset and p***** off by the reactions and the behavior of some people here and i do not accept, this is NOT beeing discussed in an open way, cause it regards many people here. I am sure, some comrades sign on that. I am an active member of this community for over 6 years and also contributed some fancy stuff for sh3. And i am not willed to take this development any longer.

We all know, there have been and there always are ups and downs with the sh-series. And also with the community itself. This is the normal way of human life.

BUT

This does not allow people to behave the way i experienced over the last few month. As stated above, i do not accept this anymore to be kept under the surface here. In many cases the personal discussion or the moderation of some contrary thread opinions are the right way, to keep the open anger out. But it some not. And is some cases its simply careless.

Let me point out some important things.


> First:

The "tone" in some discussions is quite harsh. It cannot be, to experience how long term modders (not me!), who released a lot of fine stuff, are attacked by some members, who seem not to have any education and/or knowledge about the discussed things. I wonder about the reaction from other members and the moderators. Its often not very helpful. A respectful member of this community should have the feeling of a good backup from the moderators here and be supported by them and other members.


> Second:

We all here are interested in subsims and the modding of it. Especially in the Silent Hunter Series. But many are still handling the modding-craft as their personal and private thing. Sure it is, but not the way some treat it. If you become a member of a social network, where you take part in and share thoughts, the people develop expectations and a kind of faith in you. So you should behave this minded. Go and meet these expectations, be polite, share your knowledge and your skills. Help people, who are not that skilled.


> Third:

The different opinions of "good modding" are more and more disruptive. Why is it that hard to pull the same string? For example, if there are the attempts of forming modding groups or mod-projects, suddenly many seem to feel called leaving a negative opinion on that. You always hear a: "oh no, another failed attempt", "this is not going to be successful", "good luck, i dont think its gonna work"...etc. Very motivating, and very helpful for the whole community. So if someone is not confident about the modding group or the project, he should not be that negative, he/she should give the best for it and leave productive feedback, even when theres no active participation. Or leave some rational reasons for a review of this group or the project.

With the release of SH5, the community was heavily splitted. Many of us exspected something different, than the released game with all the bugs, the bad support and the different gameplay. For some, it was quite shocking, seeing the SH-Series beeing buried that way. So many guys from the old crew left the boat. Some switched to mod sh5 and some stayed at sh3. This shows, its never been that important to be a community, which helps each other.


> Fourth:

Discuss with arguments, guys. Especially if it is about technical things, and things with rational facts...I alway encounter subject related discussions here, which drift far into an emotional one, even there is a rational core. It often passes the borders of a "normal" emotional note. And in case of someone who calls all discussion-members to be behave more friendly, he or she is attacked, too. And the moderators following the discussion, often react not adequate to it. The flamers and the "bad guys" should be given a warning and/or beeing keelhauled.


> Fifth:

As mentioned in the first note, RESPECT is decreasing here. I request the moderators and Neal as the owner of these forums, to follow the development quite carefully. As to my experiences, some people here need a serious conversation about this. Otherwise the community will slowly dissolve, by long term modders leaving.

[Hitman]

Watching ... :stare:

If this gets out of hand, I will close and let you all continue via PM

Thanks

[urfisch]

Watching ... :stare:

If this gets out of hand, I will close and let you all continue via PM

Thanks

This is not the way its beeing meant, Hitman. Please leave the thread open. It is important to have many different opinions to be shown here! Even they are emotional...cause people who act this way disqualify themselves by that. But if you close this thread, before many of the regarded people left a note on it, all my energy i invested was for nothing. The stated points are important for all of us here! I think, you agree on that. Dont you?

[postalbyke]

Concur. I have seen several instances of another modder saying that something is impossible, or shouldn't be tried because it's been tried before. Haven't we seen amazing advances in SH3 mods even very recently? The impossible being made possible? Or some modders being called in for one of their older mods for a quick explanation, only to tell everyone that they just need to change the game they play, or that they refuse to share their hard-earned knowledge on even a basic level to help another...

I'm not calling in the moderators on this, I just think that this forum was put together to create a supportive creative environment, and that we should all try to uphold this standard.

[irish1958]

I agree with all the above.
Even so, I feel this forum is the best one I have ever used in terms of courtesy and help.
A rule in life I have always used is that 10% of people are cruel, ignorant, un-feeling, hostile, unbalanced, illogical, mean, opinionated, borderline psychotic or psychotic, neurotic, paranoid, dishonest, sneaky, etc.
If you try to get along with them, you are in for a lot of grief in your life as they will screw you at any opportunity.
If I find that if I am getting alone with most people, I am happy.

[irish1958]

In respect for a concise answer, I left out a whole lot of bad traits from the above list; I am sorry if I offended any posterior orifice if I left out your screw up:arrgh!:

[Madox58]

My responce.
Not that it means JACK!

>First:
The 'Tone' thing would be a hard one for anyone to judge correctly.
I'd have to say, from personnal experience, the Moderators have done as good a job as I'd expect.
Modders are a hard headed breed by nature so there is always going to be head banging to a degree.
Once it reaches a certain low?
I've seen threads closed, warning points issued, and brig time handed out.
Suffered a few of each myself with Just cause if I may add.

>Second:
Modding IS a personnal and private thing to me.
I've shared every bit of information I have at the time I feel is proper.
I do not get paid for this hobby so the reward for myself is the 'WOW' factor once I do release.
After I release something New?
I've released the files for all to see and will answer questions and provide information for everyone to use.
I am under no obligation to tell everyone how or what I am doing at thier demand.

>Third:
Mod Groups are HATED because of what many considered a Dead Modding War.
The War is not DEAD!
I say that because Mod Groups tend to keep things quite and hidden so they can experience the 'WOW' Factor!
That makes them EVIL to many!
"Your with holding information that should be mine!"
Cry me a river on that one!
:haha:

>Fourth:
Emotions do run a bit high at times.
When they start getting insulting or rude?
Something should be done I agree.

>Fifth:
New Modders tend to dis-respect Older Modders no matter what.
It's the old 'I know better then you' problem.
Most of it seems to come from an age defect.
It's called 'LYE'.
(lack of years of experience)
At 53 years old?
I'm constantly told by those that could be my Grandchild that they know more then me.
My standard answer?
Age and Experience will overcome Youth and Enthusiasm every time.

Attention Moderators!
You may now issue me warning points or brig time if you deem fit.
:D

[irish1958]

Well said, Privateer.

[Madox58]

Not sure about that My Friend.

This thread seems dead for fear of answering a serious question in a serious way.
Or fear of getting in trouble by responding.

Myself?
I think the guilty will not say a word to try to remain hidden by not posting.

Which actually makes them all that more obvious!!
And maybe this thread should span all the SH Modding Forums!
We all know the SH5 offenders don't lower themselves to read the SH3/4 forums.

That's below thier Expert statis.
:haha:

@Moderaters.
That's privateer with a small p for any corrective actions you wish to impose.
:up:

[thfeu58]

Why such a discussion? :hmmm:

Prepared to respect yourself, you do not get paid. :woot:

In addition, each volunteer here and everyone can also go voluntarily. :salute:

Games are constantly evolving and changing,
Humans,
I hope so ... :shucks:

[PapaKilo]

By how it looks this thread is full of touchy autumn depression I suppose. It's not that bad as author see it. ok so I'm still a newbee, don't know how long term members see it, I might be also wrong, but so far it's OK for me in here.

People are all different with their + and -, the tolerance is also a cool thing.

<Opens the bottle of beer and handles it to Urfish>

Here you go brother, look at the bright side we all are here :shucks:

[Wreford-Brown]

urfisch,

I agree with most of your points, but with a few caveats:

> First:
Tone is really easy to misread, especially with only the written word and with many members who have English as a secondary or tertiary language. I've seen many people happily back down and publicly apologise when something they've written has been misconstrued and I have had to do it myself a couple of times, particularly when I first started. The problems happen, as you so rightly point out, when a misconstrued (or badly worded) comment causes so much offense that everyone gets their backs up and a word war starts.

Whenever I've reported a post the moderators have stepped in and dealt with it, but moderators are only human and have to sleep and work themselves, so sometimes things get out of hand before the moderators can react. I assume they try PM before publicly telling someone off, so we're not always sighted to how they solve problems.

> Second:
I used to be VERY protective of my mods, particularly those that were 'new' at the time and I considered them my private property, to the point where I asked one of the respected members to remove my mod from his site as I wanted sole ownership. In retrospect, this was wrong and I've adjusted my view: anyone can now use my mods wherever they like as long as I get a line in the credits. I make mods to improve my own game and release them in case anyone else wants to make the same adjustments.

I agree with privateer - the WOW factor is important to modders as positive comments tend to be few and far between. One of my mods hit 1500 downloads but I only had about ten comments on the thread which made me give up modding for about six months as I was feeling unappreciated.

> Third:
If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing. If you've already been down a modding route and failed, explain why and it will help the new modder (or team) to discount a couple of options, hopefully leading to a successful mod. Positivity is important, negativity is counter-productive.

I disagree with: Some switched to mod sh5 and some stayed at sh3. This shows, its never been that important to be a community, which helps each other. I mod to change my own game and release it if I think others will want to try the same thing. My computer won't run SH5, so I stuck to SH3 because I can't afford a computer upgrade. The community works, but you'll never get everyone to switch.

> Fourth:
Once a discussion becomes emotional it is likely to turn into an argument, and arguments are counter productive and likely to turn personal. I agree that arguments should be closed down, but moderators are human and are probably trying to see whether the individuals can resolve it themselves. If they step in too early, people lose the ability to back off and apologise to each other which is the usual outcome.

> Fifth:
Respect was decreasing but seemed to hit it's lowest point about 12 months ago and has been on the up since. We all have a role in increasing the courtesy and understanding on the forums. What we don't see are the PMs that moderators send to warn people about their actions. I'd be interested to see how many situations they've diffused without having to publicly humiliate/tell off people.

[PapaKilo]

Some thoughts for part: THIRD

I remember the days when GWX project was still in form of evolution, the tide was high in expectations and excitement, back then you could literally feel it in your chest , cuz these guys (GWX dev. crew) knew how to attract and tease hearts of those people who were partial to what was up in the horizon line :smug:

Sigh.. those were the times.. full of nostalgy to me heh..

But times changed, people like those atlantic waves that once met in the name of something special, went their own path after BIG job was done.. :cry:

Damn.. so much time has passed and IT still fill the eyes with warminess.

I must be having realy never dieing feelings for GWX :yep:

[PapaKilo]

And now.. ? We have SH5, we can see lots of modders who work on this or that independantly. Why no Teamwork anymore ?

Guess there is no leader anymore who could basicly unite modders for new project ? It cost lots of devotion, patience, planning, end lines, sleepless nights, but this was it: Introversion and teamwork which I really miss in rebuilding SH5.

[irish1958]

WB: point2
I have found that the better a mods is, the more trouble free it is, the better tested it is and if it works flawlessly, you don't get any comments.
One of my mods had over 1000 DL, and I didn't get one single comment. None.

[PapaKilo]

WB: point2
I have found that the better a mods is, the more trouble free it is, the better tested it is and if it works flawlessly, you don't get any comments.
One of my mods had over 1000 DL, and I didn't get one single comment. None.

It depends on what kind of ppl download it :) One will blindly thank you just for releasing it, while others will give you comments after they tried it at least once and wish to express gratitude, notes, or simply bashing it out if someone didn't like it :) Human nature this is :cool:

[Redbear]

urfisch, I can understand the frustration you feel. There is an amazing amount of talent exhibited in this community. I have been helped in many, many ways by those talents and willingness to help of fellow members. Overall, this community has been the most considerate, thoughtful and supportive of any I have ever been a member of. Unfortunately, there will always be those who find falt with others no matter what. In many cases it is no doubt to make themselves feel superior. For every complaint, know there are hundreds of 'thank yous'. The 'thank yous' are just too often unsaid. I only hope the actions of a few 'bad apples' is not allowed to damage a really good thing. So, as one small effort on the positive side, once again THANK YOU to all the modders out there for your tireless efforts!!! :yeah:

[Hitman]

Let's have my say now, both as moderator and as modder:

The "tone" in some discussions is quite harsh. It cannot be, to experience how long term modders (not me!), who released a lot of fine stuff, are attacked by some members, who seem not to have any education and/or knowledge about the discussed things. I wonder about the reaction from other members and the moderators. Its often not very helpful. A respectful member of this community should have the feeling of a good backup from the moderators here and be supported by them and other members.
*Takes a deep breath*

I'm not willing to start a moan about how complicated the job of moderating is, nor do I want any empathy or compassion. I do it, I suffer it and that's OK. But we have had many times discussions among us about how to moderate the forums, and have arrived to the conclusion that forums such as these are better left as much unoderated as possible because there is a solid and reasonable community around. You see, it is easy for me to issue infractions, warnings and bans, "shooting on sight" but somehow I have noticed for a long time that problematic members that start getting disrespectful with older hands are usually soon overwhelemed by the community's reaction - The older hands get inmediate support and that repulse to such behaviour is much more effective than a moderator action: Because a moderator is authority, and some people simply are childish enough to like to continuosly confrontate with authority. But when they are opposed to a massive community reaction, they stick the tail between their legs and leave it be, or simply end up doing such silly things that the ban is even more justified and as such the moderating action is much more backed up by everyone.

We all here are interested in subsims and the modding of it. Especially in the Silent Hunter Series. But many are still handling the modding-craft as their personal and private thing. Sure it is, but not the way some treat it. If you become a member of a social network, where you take part in and share thoughts, the people develop expectations and a kind of faith in you. So you should behave this minded. Go and meet these expectations, be polite, share your knowledge and your skills. Help people, who are not that skilled.Some people are helpful, others not, some like to help and have time others don't, some don't want but have time and others want and have time but lack knowledge. This is essantially and open community and everyone who mods does it for whatever reasons he might have, ego, praise, approval, will to contribute, showboating, it all doesn't matter as in the end it enrichens the game we all enjoy. There are modders who can do incredible things and create tools, but prefer not to share it, and that's perfectly OK. If we would pretend it otherwise, it would be like saying that their reasons are not as respectable as ours, and in the context of an internet community where everbody spends his free time this simply would not make any sense. If you don't like that guy, well then don't go to a pub to drink beer with him and do not invite him for dinner to your home, but that's about it. Ignore him and don't expect him to have to share or help you in anything. It is great if he does, and it is his problem if he doesn't and ends up receving no attention from anyone. I might be very wrong, but having expectation about what someone must do with his free time in regards to others, is a sure way to end being angry and deceived.

For example, if there are the attempts of forming modding groups or mod-projects, suddenly many seem to feel called leaving a negative opinion on that. You always hear a: "oh no, another failed attempt", "this is not going to be successful", "good luck, i dont think its gonna work"...etc. Very motivating, and very helpful for the whole community. So if someone is not confident about the modding group or the project, he should not be that negative, he/she should give the best for it and leave productive feedback, even when theres no active participation. Or leave some rational reasons for a review of this group or the project.Yeah, there's people who have negativity in his answers for different reasons, and when it is not backed up with arguments and helpful warning to whoever wants to start something it certainly sounds depressing. Those people would better stay silent and leave others push forward their projects and illusions, but again in an open forum like this if you discuss publically a project you are exposed to the typichal negative observations from some of the crowd. There's always a percentage of themn in any community, and they never fail to make their point. Again, I prefer to leave to the general reaction of the community to stop that negativity, because quite frankly, no matter how stupid some of that negativity is, we can't make an infraction out of it.

Discuss with arguments, guys. Especially if it is about technical things, and things with rational facts...I alway encounter subject related discussions here, which drift far into an emotional one, even there is a rational core. It often passes the borders of a "normal" emotional note. And in case of someone who calls all discussion-members to be behave more friendly, he or she is attacked, too. And the moderators following the discussion, often react not adequate to it. The flamers and the "bad guys" should be given a warning and/or beeing keelhauled.As mentioned in the first note, RESPECT is decreasing here. I request the moderators and Neal as the owner of these forums, to follow the development quite carefully. As to my experiences, some people here need a serious conversation about this. Otherwise the community will slowly dissolve, by long term modders leaving. Agree with the rational and argumental discussion. Regarding the rest, see point #1 of my reply. I don't pretend to be the perfect moderator, and in the last year and a half I'm also having some time constraints due to real life commitments (2 sons of 4 & 5 years and my job) to keep an eye on everything that is going on, so I know I might here and there have had to put a line earlier to issue some infractions or warnings. I try to do my best, sorry if I have failed on some occasion.

[Madox58]

@Hitman,

Very well put on all accounts Mate!
:up:

You may not be the Perfect Moderator?
But your OK in my Book.
:salute:

[Fubar2Niner]

@Hitman,

Very well put on all accounts Mate!
:up:

You may not be the Perfect Moderator?
But your OK in my Book.
:salute:

Seconded :salute:

Best regards.

Fubar2Niner

[Salvadoreno]

As a nobody on these forums (just a user of mods), i just want to point how some of the people appreciate the work the modders do. I mean, REALLY appreciate it. I have never met a modder who has not wanted to help a user of his/her mods.

All you guys are amazing with some great qualities. Putting in hours of work for saps like me to just enjoy and only get the satisfaction of us enjoying it is admirable. Especially when you CONTINUE to support it even after the same questions are asked 100x. :rotfl2:

I certainly hope modders continue to release mods and this recent "change" in the forums doesnt hamper any of you brilliant modders.

Please continue!

What else will i do with the little freetime i have!? Go OUT?! noooo.. I'd rather awe at the beautiful new environments, watch my uboat shake under depth charge explosions and hear the screams of my fellow ubootmen, and on occasion, enjoy a ship being hit after hours of manual targetting and 100+ misses!